Canada must be punished for destroying the planet!

[Abdul Alhazred]

Proposal to exclude Canada from the Commonwealth (http://en.cop15.dk/news/view+news?newsid=2735)
Official site of United Nations Climate Conference

In the past, the Commonwealth has suspended several countries for human rights reasons. Now, campaigners, politicians and scientists have proposed suspending Canada because of its climate policy.

This weekend's summit of Commonwealth leaders beginning in Trinidad is the last major international gathering before the Copenhagen climate change conference in December. Here too, climate change will be on top of the agenda.

The Commonwealth’s 53 members include not only developed countries like Britain, Australia and Canada, but also emerging economies like India and South Africa as well as poor developing states comprising some of the world’s most vulnerable to global warming, like the Maldives and Bangladesh.

In the past, the Commonwealth has suspended Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Nigeria and South Africa for electoral or human rights reasons. Now, The World Development Movement, the Polaris Institute in Canada and Greenpeace have called for Canada to be suspended from the Commonwealth over its climate change policies, the Guardian reports.

"Countries that fail to help (tackle global warming) should be suspended from membership, as are those that breach human rights," says Clare Short, the former International Development Secretary according to the Guardian.

...

[gtc]

Clare Short (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118877270728215947.html?) from 2007


There was Clare Short, a member of the British Parliament and Secretary for International Development under Prime Minister Tony Blair until she resigned in 2003 over the Iraq war. Claiming that Israel is actually "much worse than the original apartheid state" and accusing it of "killing (Palestinian) political leaders," Ms. Short charged the Jewish state with the ultimate crime: Israel "undermines the international community's reaction to global warming." According to Ms. Short, the Middle East conflict distracts the world from the real problem: man-made climate change. If extreme weather will lead to the "end of the human race," as Ms. Short warned it could, add this to the list of the crimes of Israel.


Out of interest, what proportion of C02 emmissions does Canada make?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Clare Short (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118877270728215947.html?) from 2007



Out of interest, what proportion of C02 emmissions does Canada make?

If you believe our opposition parties, most of it. If you believe our Green Party, all of it.

Our record is actually really terrible. In the previous election the leader of the Liberal Party made reduction of greenhouse gases a key component of the party's platform and it was soundly defeated. The current government does not believe in Global Climate Change for doctrinaire reasons.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south. Canada will lose one of it's precious few "have" provinces that are keeping the "have-nots" afloat. A couple hundred miles of the middle of the trans-canada highway and they won't have achieved a bloody thing for it.

So if a bunch of hypocritical whiners from across the sea don't like they way we are doing things, they can just suck it.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south. Canada will lose one of it's precious few "have" provinces that are keeping the "have-nots" afloat. A couple hundred miles of the middle of the trans-canada highway and they won't have achieved a bloody thing for it.

So if a bunch of hypocritical whiners from across the sea don't like they way we are doing things, they can just suck it.

I don't see no smilies here. :boggled:

[geni]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south. Canada will lose one of it's precious few "have" provinces that are keeping the "have-nots" afloat. A couple hundred miles of the middle of the trans-canada highway and they won't have achieved a bloody thing for it.

As long as Alberta doesn't burn the oil itself it isn't a problem.

[Madalch]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south. Canada will lose one of it's precious few "have" provinces that are keeping the "have-nots" afloat. A couple hundred miles of the middle of the trans-canada highway and they won't have achieved a bloody thing for it.

So if a bunch of hypocritical whiners from across the sea don't like they way we are doing things, they can just suck it.

As a proud Albertan and a Canadian (the two terms aren't as exclusive as you seem to think), I have to comment on this.

You're an idiot.

An independent Alberta will not be doing "business as usual"- despite having a large quantity of oil, the US government isn't going to simply give Alberta recognition and free access to its markets. It'll make Alberta beg for it, and it will cost Alberta far more than you could imagine.

Welcome to the ignore file.

[not daSkeptic]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south.

If you're going to separate, could you give Banff and the rest of the southwestern edge to B.C.?

Thanks. :)

[cornsail]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south. Canada will lose one of it's precious few "have" provinces that are keeping the "have-nots" afloat. A couple hundred miles of the middle of the trans-canada highway and they won't have achieved a bloody thing for it.

So if a bunch of hypocritical whiners from across the sea don't like they way we are doing things, they can just suck it.

So Alberta is like the Texas of Canada? :eye-poppi

[gtc]

If you believe our opposition parties, most of it. If you believe our Green Party, all of it.

Our record is actually really terrible. In the previous election the leader of the Liberal Party made reduction of greenhouse gases a key component of the party's platform and it was soundly defeated. The current government does not believe in Global Climate Change for doctrinaire reasons.

The arguments in Australia are fairly similar although our conservative party is tearing itself apart right now over whether to support the Labor Party on its climate change plans. I have heard the figure of 2% of global emissions from Australia but not sure if that is accurate.


An independent Alberta will not be doing "business as usual"- despite having a large quantity of oil, the US government isn't going to simply give Alberta recognition and free access to its markets. It'll make Alberta beg for it, and it will cost Alberta far more than you could imagine.

I wonder whether the US would want to add it as a state, or just milk it for all its worth?

[WildCat]

Well if I was Canadian I'd be all for global warming.

[Bloodtoes]

So Alberta is like the Texas of Canada? :eye-poppi

Yes.
The similarities are frightening.

[qayak]

If you believe our opposition parties, most of it. If you believe our Green Party, all of it.

Our record is actually really terrible. In the previous election the leader of the Liberal Party made reduction of greenhouse gases a key component of the party's platform and it was soundly defeated. The current government does not believe in Global Climate Change for doctrinaire reasons.

The Liberals weren't soundly defeated . . . we do have a minority government remember.

Also, the Green Party is the only one that increased its vote count in the last election.

[qayak]

As long as Alberta doesn't burn the oil itself it isn't a problem.

Actually, it is the oil sands causing the problem. They burn the equivilent of 3 barrels of oil to extract 4 from the sand. Or something like that. Very dirty process.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Actually, it is the oil sands causing the problem. They burn the equivilent of 3 barrels of oil to extract 4 from the sand. Or something like that. Very dirty process.

Right, we're burning the equivalent of oil to refine bitumen out of tar sands. Right now, that's natural gas. Slightly cleaner than burning oil itself, but our gas reserves have a shorter lifespan than the tar sands.

That's one of the reasons why we in the Canadian Nuclear Society have been lobbying for Albertas oil patch to go nuclear. Various proposals are on the table including shipping the majority of the power that would be produced at the proposed Peace River nuclear facility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Alberta_Corporation) to Fort MacMurray (aka "Fort McMoney") or even building small nuclear (10Mw - 100Mw) reactors on site for direct steam production.

If we were able to do that, then the carbon footprint of oilsands production might even drop below that of conventional oil.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The Liberals weren't soundly defeated . . . we do have a minority government remember.

Also, the Green Party is the only one that increased its vote count in the last election.

And yet. And yet, Mr Harper is in charge. :o

[D'rok]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south. Canada will lose one of it's precious few "have" provinces that are keeping the "have-nots" afloat. A couple hundred miles of the middle of the trans-canada highway and they won't have achieved a bloody thing for it.

So if a bunch of hypocritical whiners from across the sea don't like they way we are doing things, they can just suck it.
Non-token Albertan here. Put it back in your pants. The Prime Minister's riding is in Calgary. He's a pasty, god-fearing wanna-be republican, but he's not stupid enough to alienate his constituency and his power base. Even the Liberals will never consider doing NEP II. Political suicide. They're on life support as it is.

And Madalch's right. Alberta needs Canada more than Canada needs Alberta.

Sheesh. The West wants in? FFS, the West is the gorram federal government right now and for the foreseeable future!

[Puppycow]

Well if I was Canadian I'd be all for global warming.

Bad idea.
Who do you think is going to bear the brunt of the angry polar bear backlash? :hit:

[Madalch]

Well if I was Canadian I'd be all for global warming.
Not really. It would make the winters slightly more mild, but would probably give us more flooding in Manitoba and more droughts in Alberta. It's not worth it just to have -35oC instead of -40oC.

[Piercy]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south. Canada will lose one of it's precious few "have" provinces that are keeping the "have-nots" afloat. A couple hundred miles of the middle of the trans-canada highway and they won't have achieved a bloody thing for it.

So if a bunch of hypocritical whiners from across the sea don't like they way we are doing things, they can just suck it.

Who did you think supported you guys back in the day to get you where you're at now? That's right, Atlantic Canada.

[Roboramma]

As a proud Albertan and a Canadian (the two terms aren't as exclusive as you seem to think), I have to comment on this.


An independent Alberta will not be doing "business as usual"- despite having a large quantity of oil, the US government isn't going to simply give Alberta recognition and free access to its markets. It'll make Alberta beg for it, and it will cost Alberta far more than you could imagine.


As another proud albertan and canadian I'd like to second this post.

[lionking]

For those wondering about carbon dioxide emissions by country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

Canada number 8 in the world at 1.9%, Australia number 16 at 1.3%.

Per capita has Canada at number 10 and Australia number 11 (or the other way around depending on how you read it):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_ capita

[uk_dave]

For those wondering about carbon dioxide emissions by country:



I'm very proud of Niue.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Who did you think supported you guys back in the day to get you where you're at now? That's right, Atlantic Canada.

And, of course, the fondly never remembered, Ottawa Valley Line. West of this line the sale of cheaper imported (mostly Venezuela) oil was prohibited and Ontario and points West were forced for decades to buy Albertan oil and prop up a noncompetitive industry. How soon they forget. :(

[qayak]

And yet. And yet, Mr Harper is in charge. :o

Not the point. In the last election the Conservatives didn't get more votes than they did in 2006. What happened was Liberal voters didn't go to the polls or, if they did, they voted for the Green Party which was the only one to increase its vote count.

[Praktik]

So Alberta is like the Texas of Canada? :eye-poppi

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20091016/160_CGY_Logo_HeartofNewWest_091016.jpg

[qayak]

Who did you think supported you guys back in the day to get you where you're at now? That's right, Atlantic Canada.

Back in the day? What day was that, 1949 when they joined Confederation in the middle of their own depression? Certainly not since! :D

[Praktik]

Just who do you think is working those oil fields qayak? ;)

[Darth Rotor]

Yes.
The similarities are frightening.
Why are you afraid of beautiful naked women?

(Hugh Hefner seems to have made a disproportionate number of Canadian and Texan women Playmates of the Year over the past five decades).

Yes, I used disproportionate deliberately. :cool:

DR

[D'rok]

Dammit. Just perused the wikipedia entry on Alberta and now I'm getting homesick. I haven't seen mountains or prairie for years now. Stupid Ontario. Why did I come here. :(

(Actually, Ottawa is quite lovely and Ontario has many charms, but it just ain't home).


ETA: Alberta factoid of the day: "As of the Canada 2001 Census...Alberta had the second highest percentage of non-religious residents in Canada (after British Columbia) at 23.1% of the population."

That's right folks. One quarter of Albertans are atheist/agnostic or at least apatheistic. Remember that the next time you hear about the "bible belt".

[Segnosaur]

Token Albertan here, If the Canadian federal government lays a finger on our oil industry, we'll separate and keep doing business as usual with our customers down south. Canada will lose one of it's precious few "have" provinces that are keeping the "have-nots" afloat. A couple hundred miles of the middle of the trans-canada highway and they won't have achieved a bloody thing for it.
As a proud Albertan and a Canadian (the two terms aren't as exclusive as you seem to think), I have to comment on this.

You're an idiot.
...
Welcome to the ignore file.

You know, I recognize that Sword-of-truth's rhetoric was rather, well, extreme. However, was it really necessary to put him in your ignore file over that?

Whether you agree or not, there are Albertans who feel disenfranchised by the current political process, and this can range anywhere from mild grumblings about "the east" to outright feelings of separation.

[Praktik]

Us torontonians have our share of chips on our shoulder too.

Had a discussion just last week about provincializing the GTA..;)

[Segnosaur]

Our record is actually really terrible. In the previous election the leader of the Liberal Party made reduction of greenhouse gases a key component of the party's platform and it was soundly defeated.

Well, keep in mind that the last election was fought on more issues than just greenhouse gases. The Liberals were probably still suffering over ad-scam, the conservatives ran into problems with cultural funding in quebec, etc.

Also, although the Liberals had their whole "green shift" plan, their ideas had some very serious flaws in it, not just in the way that they were presented, but in the heart of their proposals as well.

And finally, keep in mind that although the previous Liberal government supposedly believed in stopping carbon emissions, they did pretty much nothing after signing on to Kyoto.

[Segnosaur]

Sheesh. The West wants in? FFS, the West is the gorram federal government right now and for the foreseeable future!

Well, its true that the Prime Minister is from Alberta, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the "west is the federal government". Lets face it, if the conservatives ever want to get a majority, they'll have to give at least some lip service to Quebec/Ontario, even if it means potentially alienating some of their Alberta base. (And lets face it, where exactly are Alberta voters going to go?)

[D'rok]

Us torontonians have our share of chips on our shoulder too.

Had a discussion just last week about provincializing the GTA..;)

Good grief. Tronna has delusions of province-hood? Figures. :p

[FreshHat]

Proposal to exclude Canada from the Commonwealth (http://en.cop15.dk/news/view+news?newsid=2735)
Official site of United Nations Climate Conference

Well, good!

Perhaps we'll get the portrait of that English potentate off our money, stamps, and government office walls.

[plumjam]

I saw Canada on the recent Ray Mears series. It was nice.

[D'rok]

Well, its true that the Prime Minister is from Alberta, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the "west is the federal government". Lets face it, if the conservatives ever want to get a majority, they'll have to give at least some lip service to Quebec/Ontario, even if it means potentially alienating some of their Alberta base. (And lets face it, where exactly are Alberta voters going to go?)

I'm not sure where the Conservatives are going to get extra non-western votes without radical policy changes (and I don't see that happening). They've already maxed out Ontario, and have managed to re-alienate Quebec after the whole coalition thing.

[Praktik]

Good grief. Tronna has delusions of province-hood? Figures. :p

Its the same basis upon which Alberta felt disserviced by the national compact: putting in more then you're getting out.

Our tax base funds the entire province while our infrastructure crumbles.

I say - put it to a vote! haha... we outnumber the rest of the province so should be a nice victory for democracy!

[D'rok]

Its the same basis upon which Alberta felt disserviced by the national compact: putting in more then you're getting out.

Our tax base funds the entire province while our infrastructure crumbles.

I say - put it to a vote! haha... we outnumber the rest of the province so should be a nice victory for democracy!

1.2 million taxpayers in the NCR might get a little miffed by that. Not to mention perennially ignored "Northern" Ontario. (Which is really the Southern part of Western Ontario, no matter what"SWO" says).

[Segnosaur]

Its the same basis upon which Alberta felt disserviced by the national compact: putting in more then you're getting out.

Our tax base funds the entire province...

Does it?

I've never seen any figures on this. Although it wouldn't surprise me if Toronto contributed a lot to provincial funding, I doubt if they are the only region that is contributing more than it receives. After all, many areas have significant natural resources that result in significant tax collection (especially on a per-person basis), other areas are well-known tourist regions, or have significant technology investments.

Not only that, even if Toronto does contribute a significant amount to provincial funding, they also probably reap a disproportionate number of government jobs in the process.

[Praktik]

1.2 million taxpayers in the NCR might get a little miffed by that. Not to mention perennially ignored "Northern" Ontario. (Which is really the Southern part of Western Ontario, no matter what"SWO" says).

This isn't a new idea by any means, but I've always agreed with the idea of "Manitario".

People in Thunder Bay and Kenora have more in common with Manitoba than they do with Southern Ontario.

[Praktik]

Does it?

I've never seen any figures on this. Although it wouldn't surprise me if Toronto contributed a lot to provincial funding, I doubt if they are the only region that is contributing more than it receives. After all, many areas have significant natural resources that result in significant tax collection (especially on a per-person basis), other areas are well-known tourist regions, or have significant technology investments.

Not only that, even if Toronto does contribute a significant amount to provincial funding, they also probably reap a disproportionate number of government jobs in the process.

Yes well I never claimed to agree with this line of thinking but its true: there's just so many more people here and so much money that we contribute a lot more than we get back.

That being said: I am cool with it. The rest of ontario benefitting is fine. I just wish we had better federal and provincial funding of the TTC and for transportation networks generally. If these things were funded better it would still be better for the province because greater efficiency = more money, and more money in the GTA = more money for ontario's coffers.

Its part of the deal here in Canada: from the have provinces to the have-nots, from the have regions intra-province to the have nots. And luckily we have widespread support for this policy across the board. I was just highlighting that a similar type of grumbling to the stuff out west exists here too.

[D'rok]

This isn't a new idea by any means, but I've always agreed with the idea of "Manitario".

People in Thunder Bay and Kenora have more in common with Manitoba than they do with Southern Ontario.
That region does feel like a totally different province. But are you sure you want to give up Lake of the Woods and the Northern Coast of Lake Superior? The most beautiful parts of Ontario IMO.

[Segnosaur]

Yes well I never claimed to agree with this line of thinking but its true: there's just so many more people here and so much money that we contribute a lot more than we get back.

First of all, do you have any references/proof that that is the case? (And I'm talking specifically about provincial funding...)

Secondly, is this greater contribution measured in total dollars or per-capita? (Like I said, places like nortern ontario may not contribute as many total dollars, but their natural resources, combined with small population base, may mean that their per-captita contributions are greater than Toronto's.

That being said: I am cool with it. The rest of ontario benefitting is fine. I just wish we had better federal and provincial funding of the TTC and for transportation networks generally.
And Ontario is also having problems with our transportation funding. (So far, I think we've been receiving less per-capita than Toronto. Although much of that is due to municipal incompetence.)

Its part of the deal here in Canada: from the have provinces to the have-nots, from the have regions intra-province to the have nots. And luckily we have widespread support for this policy across the board. I was just highlighting that a similar type of grumbling to the stuff out west exists here too.

Except we have actual evidence that Alberta contributes more to Canada than it gets back (in the form of Transfer payments and its classification as a 'have' province.) So far, all we have are your claims, which may be accurate, but I'd like to see some statistics to back it up.

And although it may be 'popular' to have the successful parts of the country subsidize the less successful, is that necessarily beneficial in the long run? If an area depends on an industry that is no longer viable, wouldn't it benefit all Canadians if people moved to areas that actually required more workforce? (Not saying that such federal support plans should be totally scraped; just concerned that they can lead to an unfortunate dependency.)

[D'rok]

At least you have a transit system. Have you been to Ottawa? O-Train...hah!

[Praktik]

At least you have a transit system. Have you been to Ottawa? O-Train...hah!

Ottawa boy born and raised, been in toronto since 99

Segnosaur: im sure those statistics exist somewhere but since this is not an issue I feel particularly strongly about (ie, I am NOT one of the people complaining about getting short thrift, especially since Ontario as a whole is have-not these days!) Im not particularly inclined to look em up right now.

I'll do some digging and report back it may not be today though.

As I said before, my biggest pet peeve is transportation infrastructure - and thats kind of a general issue as D'rok shows... yes, waiting 45 mins for a local bus in ottawa SUCKED!

But think of it eh guys? I mean, we got the biggest country in the world by area, and the montreal-windsor corridor has no high speed trains. WTF??

I hate how it takes me 5 hours to get to ottawa. Its the most boring trip ever.

[Segnosaur]

I'm not sure where the Conservatives are going to get extra non-western votes without radical policy changes (and I don't see that happening).

I figure most of the votes would come from Ontario. After all, this is a province that voted for Mike Harris for 2 terms.

And I don't really think they'd need "radical policy changes". I doubt there's anything in their platform that an overwhelming majority of the population would really object to. (Its just a case of applying the proper window dressing.) Remember, this isn't exactly like the U.S. republicans dominated by social conservatives.

They've already maxed out Ontario, and have managed to re-alienate Quebec after the whole coalition thing.

Re-alienate quebec? Heck, I'm suprised that they actually had support in Quebec to begin with. After all, Quebec is one of the more left-leaning provinces.

[Madalch]

You know, I recognize that Sword-of-truth's rhetoric was rather, well, extreme. However, was it really necessary to put him in your ignore file over that?

Whether you agree or not, there are Albertans who feel disenfranchised by the current political process, and this can range anywhere from mild grumblings about "the east" to outright feelings of separation.

I generally despise the separatists for a large number of their common political beliefs. And I've yet to see anything of value in SoT's other posts, so it's no loss to me.

[Praktik]

I got to like SoT better when we stuck to combatting woo and stopped talking politics..:)

he's got some good stuff in the CT subforum!

Too bad ignores can't be tailored to subforum...

[Segnosaur]

But think of it eh guys? I mean, we got the biggest country in the world by area, and the montreal-windsor corridor has no high speed trains. WTF??

I hate how it takes me 5 hours to get to ottawa. Its the most boring trip ever.

But if they did build a high speed Montreal-Windor rail link, would it benefit Ottawa? After all, it would have to deviate significantly to the north to link in with O-town (instead of following the more direct 401 path.)

And would it even be viable? Remember, even the U.S. only has one high-speed rail line, and they have 10 times the population (in a country smaller than Canada).

Of course, this is getting a little off topic...

[D'rok]

Ottawa boy born and raised, been in toronto since 99

Segnosaur: im sure those statistics exist somewhere but since this is not an issue I feel particularly strongly about (ie, I am NOT one of the people complaining about getting short thrift, especially since Ontario as a whole is have-not these days!) Im not particularly inclined to look em up right now.

I'll do some digging and report back it may not be today though.

As I said before, my biggest pet peeve is transportation infrastructure - and thats kind of a general issue as D'rok shows... yes, waiting 45 mins for a local bus in ottawa SUCKED!

But think of it eh guys? I mean, we got the biggest country in the world by area, and the montreal-windsor corridor has no high speed trains. WTF??

I hate how it takes me 5 hours to get to ottawa. Its the most boring trip ever.

Well, Russia is still the biggest by area, but transportation woes certainly are one of the major downsides to being Canadian. But for me, cross-country road trips are part of what made me fall madly in love with this big, empty place.

I like this derail, BTW. The provinces and territories are our own Commonwealth anyways!

[Segnosaur]

I generally despise the separatists for a large number of their common political beliefs.
Is that a blanket statement applicable in all cases? Or do you think that there are cases where 'separation' is a valid political ideal? (Remember, technically the U.S. 'separated' from the U.K. because they felt they had no voice with the government.) Is it possible for a government (even a democratically elected one) to be so unfair to a particular region (over a long enough period) that they have no recourse but to separate?

And I've yet to see anything of value in SoT's other posts, so it's no loss to me.

That's fine. I've never noticed you complaining about his posts before, but I may have never noticed.

[Praktik]

Is that a blanket statement applicable in all cases? Or do you think that there are cases where 'separation' is a valid political ideal? (Remember, technically the U.S. 'separated' from the U.K. because they felt they had no voice with the government.) Is it possible for a government (even a democratically elected one) to be so unfair to a particular region (over a long enough period) that they have no recourse but to separate?

I'll answer anyway I got a few mins left on lunch..:)

And I'll say that I do not despise the separatists, agree that sometimes separation should be allowed and that it is a valid political idea.

And I've even come to the point where part of me says "let em leave" if they ever won a referendum. Then - finally - we can stop thinking about "what Quebec thinks.." all the time.

its not as if there will be armed guards on the ottawa river I don't really see how much would change on a practical day-to-day basis with separation. It wouldn't be in Quebec's interest to play isolationist. They depend on us too much.

[Madalch]

Is that a blanket statement applicable in all cases? Or do you think that there are cases where 'separation' is a valid political ideal?
Just to clarify, I'm referring to those separatists who want Alberta or western Canada to separate from the rest of the country. They're talking about taking -my- home out of -my- country, so I'm allowed to have strong feelings about it. Additionally, they all seem to come from what I consider the idiotic end of the political spectrum.

Quebec separatists tend to come from a completely different side of the political spectrum, so my opinion towards them is not nearly so rabid.

Separatists in other countries don't bother me at all.

That's fine. I've never noticed you complaining about his posts before, but I may have never noticed.

If it's not worth arguing with, I generally won't bother complaining. I just pass on to the next thread.

[Praktik]

I have roots in Manitoba too but this summer was the first time I was out in Alberta and BC.

And I remember thinking: "wow, it really is like a different country out here!"

Sometimes I think decentralization might have us all living happier lives together.

In BC, I was confronted with a very Palin-esque question by a BCer: "how do you like real Canada?"

Slagging us ontarians. Not realizing the Ontarian contingent at that wedding wasn't toronto-based, but cambridge/paris based. Smalltown ontario-yo. Thats as "real canada" as it gets... but I digress..

[Madalch]

In BC, I was confronted with a very Palin-esque question by a BCer: "how do you like real Canada?"

Ouch. Was that from someone in Vancouver?

I remember a comedian quoting a typical Vancouverite: "Now that you've seen Vancouver, when are you moving here?"

On my next trip to Vancouver, someone actually asked me that, in almost the same words.

[Praktik]

Nope, Fernie.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Quebec separatists tend to come from a completely different side of the political spectrum, so my opinion towards them is not nearly so rabid.

So your problem with me is that I spewed separatist rhetoric and not separatiste rhetoric.

Gotcha... hypocrisy noted.

[KoihimeNakamura]

I doubt it's hypocrisy when he admits it's based on view in the political spectrum.

[Segnosaur]

Just to clarify, I'm referring to those separatists who want Alberta or western Canada to separate from the rest of the country. They're talking about taking -my- home out of -my- country, so I'm allowed to have strong feelings about it. Additionally, they all seem to come from what I consider the idiotic end of the political spectrum.
I see...

So is there anything that the federal government might do that could conceivably make you consider separation as a 'valid' prospect? Not necessarily something so extreme as rounding up all Albertans into forced labour camps, but what about implementing NEP2? Or major shifts in taxation/government benefits that specifically harm Alberta? How about changes to the senate/house of commons that reduce Alberta's political voice? Or a combination of all of them?

Is your dislike for Alberta separatist causes absolute? Or is it just because you don't think that hasn't really been treated "badly enough" that you criticize separatists?

Or is this based mostly on your position in the political spectrum, and that you don't want Alberta to separate because you are to the political left (at least compared to other Albertans) and you don't want to live in an 'independant' Alberta that might drift further to the right?

Quebec separatists tend to come from a completely different side of the political spectrum, so my opinion towards them is not nearly so rabid.
Just what exactly do you mean by that?

Are you suggesting that being on the political 'left' makes the separation option more valid?

[D'rok]

Sometimes I think decentralization might have us all living happier lives together.

That's precisely what we have and precisely why Canada works despite the odds. There is a strange meme amongst a lot of Canadians that we have a centralized system of national governance. We have exactly the opposite. We're easily one of the most, if not the most decentralized federations on the planet. Provinces have a substantial and exclusive chunk of the power pie which amounts to a significant degree of political autonomy. In fact, provincial autonomy has done nothing but increase since confederation due to the exclusive powers granted in the BNA Act and the interpretation of the Act by the British JCPC. For instance, Albertans can complain about Canada stealing its oil because, constitutionally speaking, it really is Alberta's oil, not Canada's.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I see...

So is there anything that the federal government might do that could conceivably make you consider separation as a 'valid' prospect? Not necessarily something so extreme as rounding up all Albertans into forced labour camps, but what about implementing NEP2? Or major shifts in taxation/government benefits that specifically harm Alberta? How about changes to the senate/house of commons that reduce Alberta's political voice? Or a combination of all of them?

I remember reading somewhere once, I'm not certain exactly where, that when in the course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Or something like that... it was like on a cereal box or something. ;)

Or is this based mostly on your position in the political spectrum, and that you don't want Alberta to separate because you are to the political left (at least compared to other Albertans) and you don't want to live in an 'independant' Alberta that might drift further to the right?


Just what exactly do you mean by that?

Are you suggesting that being on the political 'left' makes the separation option more valid?

No, no, no... you got it all wrong. Madalch is quite clearly a far, far right winger. Probably even worse than I am. He doesn't mind lefties talking separatism because he's entertained by the thought of them leaving the country!

Most righties want lefties to lose more elections than they win. Madalch wants to evict them. Dude is hard... core know what I'm sayin? ;)

[Madalch]

So is there anything that the federal government might do that could conceivably make you consider separation as a 'valid' prospect?

It's possible, but most of the things that would anger me are far more likely to come from the hard-right provincial government than from the federal government (unless Stockwell Day somehow takes over the federal conservative party again).

Is your dislike for Alberta separatist causes absolute? Or is it just because you don't think that hasn't really been treated "badly enough" that you criticize separatists?

Most of what Albertan separatists tend to complain about these days are things that I'm generally happy with. I've known people who were generally furious that we didn't march to war in Iraq, or that we couldn't have American companies building for-profit hospitals, or sell off the national parks to Diashawa.

And the right-wing, "How dare you make us pay taxes!! We have oil money, so you should let us do whatever we like, or you won't get a cent!!" attitude gets old really fast.

Just what exactly do you mean by that?

Are you suggesting that being on the political 'left' makes the separation option more valid?

No- I don't live in Quebec, so Quebec separatism doesn't hit nearly so close to home.

The fact that they're not generally right-wingers is not a reason to like them, but it's not an extra reason to hate them, either.

[D'rok]

I remember reading somewhere once, I'm not certain exactly where, that when in the course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Or something like that... it was like on a cereal box or something. ;)

Lovely words, but apropos of nothing here in British North America. I think Praktik needs to come by and pee on your tent. (See the Charter thread for why). That would baptize you as an honorary American, which seems to be what you are angling for.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

And for the record, I did not endorse separatism. I made a prediction of what I believe will occur should we get hit with another NEP.

And there is historical precedent for this. In 2002, at the height of Jean Chretiens Kyoto demagoguery, a poll conducted by JMCK communications showed a startlingly high 55% of Albertans willing to explore separation (http://www.jmck.ca/news/file/Calgary%20Sun%20Nov%2018,%202002.htm) as a solution to Ottowas over-reaching and meddling in our affairs. The number was undoubtedly boosted by the manipulative use of the word "explore" rather than simply asking "Do you want to seperate?" but it should have been taken as a shot across the bow (and maybe it was) regardless.

I also believe the situation for the Harper government, and by extension Alberta, is more precarious than others who have posted here have suggested. The Harper government will only last until such time as the Liberals and the NDP realize they hate the conservatives more than they hate each other*. They almost had that happen once already only to have Harper cunningly extend the non-confidence vote deadline until after the Liberal/NDP coalition fell apart.

Such a play might not work a second time. Especially if another year or so on the opposition benches makes them hungry enough for it. And a Liberal led coalition government that needs to keep "Flyover Jack" (http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/decisioncanada/story.html?id=9b136d94-ce6f-44f7-879e-5338fc9dbc8b) happy for its stability would put Alberta in the crosshairs like never before.

Alberta separatism, despite the motivations has had problems crossing over into the mainstream in this province. Though nearly all "right-of-centre" parties here have toyed with playing the separation card the issue still has image problems. A "real" Alberta Independence party would have to bill itself as a "new" movement and probably formally announce that notorious nazi mouthpiece Doug Christie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Christie_%28lawyer%29) is barrred from membership.

[lomiller]

So Alberta is like the Texas of Canada? :eye-poppi

yup and they are right next to Canada's answer to backwoods Arkansas, Saskatchewan (on account of the Banjo picking inbred's)

To all those in Saskatchewan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZshZp-cxKg


:D:D:D:D

[D'rok]

And for the record, I did not endorse separatism. I made a prediction of what I believe will occur should we get hit with another NEP.

And there is historical precedent for this. In 2002, at the height of Jean Chretiens Kyoto demagoguery, a poll conducted by JMCK communications showed a startlingly high 55% of Albertans willing to explore separation (http://www.jmck.ca/news/file/Calgary%20Sun%20Nov%2018,%202002.htm) as a solution to Ottowas over-reaching and meddling in our affairs. The number was undoubtedly boosted by the manipulative use of the word "explore" rather than simply asking "Do you want to seperate?" but it should have been taken as a shot across the bow (and maybe it was) regardless.

Yeah, that and it was the middle choice between "do nothing" and "join the USA". Talk about a false trichotomy.

[not daSkeptic]

In BC, I was confronted with a very Palin-esque question by a BCer: "how do you like real Canada?"

I've always heard that BC is the least Canadian part of Canada. :con2:

Speaking of BC, I have proof the grass is greener on the other side:

Washington State: http://maps.google.com/maps?layer=c&cbll=49.001605,-122.484999&cbp=12,3.26,,0,6

British Columbia (a few feet away): http://maps.google.com/maps?layer=c&cbll=49.003286,-122.485058&cbp=12,37.74,,0,6.81

:p

[Praktik]

LI think Praktik needs to come by and pee on your tent. (See the Charter thread for why).

LOL!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Yeah, that and it was the middle choice between "do nothing" and "join the USA". Talk about a false trichotomy.

I was shocked that "Join the USA" got a number outside the margin of error.

[Madalch]

Speaking of BC, I have proof the grass is greener on the other side:

Washington State: http://maps.google.com/maps?layer=c&cbll=49.001605,-122.484999&cbp=12,3.26,,0,6

British Columbia (a few feet away): http://maps.google.com/maps?layer=c&cbll=49.003286,-122.485058&cbp=12,37.74,,0,6.81


Of course- that's why BC grass is a major export.

[DarthFishy]

For those wondering about carbon dioxide emissions by country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

Canada number 8 in the world at 1.9%, Australia number 16 at 1.3%.

Per capita has Canada at number 10 and Australia number 11 (or the other way around depending on how you read it):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_ capita

Heh. One more thing South Africa beats Australia at (being 13th). :D

[rockinkt]

Proposal to exclude Canada from the Commonwealth (http://en.cop15.dk/news/view+news?newsid=2735)
Official site of United Nations Climate Conference

I love it when politics trumps common sense.

No matter how you look at it - 1.9% of the total greenhouse gas emissions is insignificant.
Especially since the first three countries on the list are responsible for 55.5%.

[Nosi]

Not really. It would make the winters slightly more mild, but would probably give us more flooding in Manitoba and more droughts in Alberta. It's not worth it just to have -35oC instead of -40oC.

The biting insects would have an absolute field day...:scared:

[Nosi]

But if they did build a high speed Montreal-Windor rail link, would it benefit Ottawa? After all, it would have to deviate significantly to the north to link in with O-town (instead of following the more direct 401 path.)

And would it even be viable? Remember, even the U.S. only has one high-speed rail line, and they have 10 times the population (in a country smaller than Canada).

Of course, this is getting a little off topic...

I think high speed rail can replace aircraft in both Canada & USA personally, and reduce the need for oil.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Didn't expect I'd start a Canadian civil war. :eek:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Didn't expect I'd start a Canadian civil war. :eek:

This is nothing. Try bringing up the Oilers and the Flames sometime. ;)

[Cleon]

Didn't expect I'd start a Canadian civil war. :eek:

A Canadian war would be civil.

*Bang*
"Sorry!"
*Boom*
"Sorry aboat that bomb, eh!"

[Praktik]

Except for the secessionist Albertans, who would go

"Alberrrta! ______ ya!"

after every bomb

[Uzzy]

While I do think that Canada should be pressured into meeting targets already agreed to, or at least doing something to get towards them, the idea of throwing Canada out of the Commonwealth is insane. Not exactly going to accomplish anything, that.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Except for the secessionist Albertans, who would go

"Alberrrta! ______ ya!"

after every bomb

You misspelled "Leafs suck".

[Praktik]

You misspelled "Leafs suck".

lol- ottawa boy born and raised!

though given the way we choke in the post-season maybe I shouldn't have advertised that..;)

[Sword_Of_Truth]

You know why Red Deer Alberta doesn't have a hockey team, don't you?

Because if they had one, Calgary would want one too. ;)

[Praktik]

ha!

[D'rok]

I weep for my Oilers.

I think we should report Uzzy for posting off-topic.

[Segnosaur]

Maybe they should combine the Calgary and Edmonton hockey teams to make one very competitive team.

They can call them the Alberta Oil Well Fires.

[Furcifer]

And would it even be viable? Remember, even the U.S. only has one high-speed rail line, and they have 10 times the population (in a country smaller than Canada).
.

It's so Canadian to compare ourselves to the Americans. This type of thinking has held us back over the years. Why can't we have x10 the rail lines, all highspeed? Cut the cord.

Sorry to be preachy, it's not really directed at you Segnosaur.

[Segnosaur]

It's so Canadian to compare ourselves to the Americans. This type of thinking has held us back over the years. Why can't we have x10 the rail lines, all highspeed? Cut the cord.

Some comparisons are valid/useful. We are both economically successful (more or less) western democracies with similar demographics, similar interest in the "car culture", and both countries have large land masses with population concentrated into a relatively small portion of the country.

I'd much rather compare ourselves to the Americans to get an idea of what works/doesn't work, rather than build a dozen "white elephant" high speed rail lines that are always running at low capacity.

It doesn't mean that the comparisons will always be valid, just that when there are similarities, we should make use of them. (The whole quote about not remembering history and being condemned to repeat it and all...)

[Uzzy]

I weep for my Oilers.

I think we should report Uzzy for posting off-topic.

*looks at the rest of the thread and feels so ashamed I want to report myself*

My Canadian friend tells me 'Go Oilers' though, if that gives me a reprieve?

[D'rok]

*looks at the rest of the thread and feels so ashamed I want to report myself*

My Canadian friend tells me 'Go Oilers' though, if that gives me a reprieve?
All is forgiven.

[D'rok]

Maybe they should combine the Calgary and Edmonton hockey teams to make one very competitive team.

They can call them the Alberta Oil Well Fires.
Sacrilege!

[not daSkeptic]

Question ... for a non-Canadian who has recently moved near Vancouver and is a hockey fan, who might be a good team to go see when they come to town to play the Canucks?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Sacrilege!

Gonna have to go with D'rok on this one. ;)

[Madalch]

Maybe they should combine the Calgary and Edmonton hockey teams to make one very competitive team.

They can call them the Alberta Oil Well Fires.

That joke was used in the University of Alberta newspaper shortly after the Gulf War. 1992ish.

I don't know what's worse- the unoriginality of the joke, or the fact that I remember where I first read it.

[badnewsBH]

Question ... for a non-Canadian who has recently moved near Vancouver and is a hockey fan, who might be a good team to go see when they come to town to play the Canucks?

Detroit's usually near the top of the list; the Canucks host them on March 10. Check out the NHL home page (http://www.nhl.com) for the full schedule. :)

As a Canadian, I don't really care if we get booted from the Commonwealth. As to whether it's justified, I'll leave that for others to decide.

Oh, and Nova Scotia #1. :p

[Corsair 115]

All this hockey talk and no hate for the Maple Leafs yet? What is going on here?!? :D

[Gord_in_Toronto]

All this hockey talk and no hate for the Maple Leafs yet? What is going on here?!? :D

They won tonight so they are on a one game winning streak. ;)

[Jimbo07]

FWIW

What, exactly, does being in the Commonwealth get us?

[Rogue Primate]

Visits from the Queen.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

All this hockey talk and no hate for the Maple Leafs yet? What is going on here?!? :D

What... am I on your ignore list too?

Look up the page, Corsair.

(And what happened to the Gabrielle Miller avatar?)

[Sword_Of_Truth]

FWIW

What, exactly, does being in the Commonwealth get us?

Kick ass military unit names.

I respect our allies to the south and they certainly have nice toys, but names like "10th Mountain Division" or "3rd Armored Division" just don't have the flair or the romance of names like "Lord Strathconas Horse" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Strathcona%27s_Horse_%28Royal_Canadians%29) or "Black Watch Highlanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Watch_%28Royal_Highland_Regiment%29_of_C anada)".

And have you ever heard the old Johnny Cash song "A Boy Named Sue"? Well imagine how bad-ass a man has to be to earn the name of "Princess Pat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPCLI)" and wear it with pride.

We'd lose all that without the Commonwealth.

[Praktik]

FWIW

What, exactly, does being in the Commonwealth get us?

The commonwealth games dummy!

Lol - in all seriousness I think it makes it easier for travel and trade with other commonwealth countries and even if thats all we get I dont see what the benefit of excising ourselves from it is.

[Corsair 115]

What... am I on your ignore list too?

Look up the page, Corsair.


Er, well, the hate simply wasn't as obvious as I thought it should be I guess.


(And what happened to the Gabrielle Miller avatar?)

The show's over, and my fancying eventually waned.


They won tonight so they are on a one game winning streak. ;)


Yeah, I saw that. I've been living in Toronto for twenty-five years, and I've gone from liking the Leafs to being ambivalent about them to actively hating them. I now want them to lose, as much as possible. And I turned to hating them precisely because of the too many brain-dead Leafs fans in this town who constantly make the team out to be the greatest thing ever even when it's clear it's a hopeless sack of poop. They keep making the team the most profitable in the NHL every year in spite of being given a turkey of a team each season. Until enough fans wise up and start withholding their dollars, the club will never really change its ways.

[INRM]

This absolutely insane

[Steve]

Question ... for a non-Canadian who has recently moved near Vancouver and is a hockey fan, who might be a good team to go see when they come to town to play the Canucks?

Detroit's usually near the top of the list; the Canucks host them on March 10. Check out the NHL home page for the full schedule.

Also Chicago, based on the events in last year's playoffs. Be advised though that Canucks tickets can be hard to come by unless you pay a premium to re-sellers or scalpers. They usually sell out.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Er, well, the hate simply wasn't as obvious as I thought it should be I guess.

It's hard to generate good Leaf hate given the existing noise level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alberta) out here.

Which is a plus for the Pro-confederation side, I suppose. All the best battle-cries would only get Albertans fighting each other. :D

The show's over, and my fancying eventually waned.
She was cute as a blonde. ;)

(Stargate SG-1, first season. The episode where Col. Oniell turns into a scragglier, older fart than the scraggly old fart he is now in SGU)

[Davidlpf]

How about Canadiens vs Leafs.

[Davidlpf]

From Newfoundland to BC, we all agree Toronto sucks. That is what really keeps us together. :D

[Sword_Of_Truth]

From Newfoundland to BC, we all agree Toronto sucks. That is what really keeps us together. :D

Oh Canadaaaaaa...
Our Home and Native laaaaannnd...
:D

[Stacko]

From Newfoundland to BC, we all agree Toronto sucks. That is what really keeps us together. :D

In the spirit of national unity.

rIcl2qX3Xao

:D

[D'rok]

In the spirit of national unity.

rIcl2qX3Xao

:D

Love the Arrogant Worms.

Xnk-cHskI-4

[Madalch]

In the spirit of national unity.

rIcl2qX3Xao



You know, that's really, really irritating. Infuriating, actually.

Not the song- I love the song. But the fact that it's always attributed to The Arrogant Worms, when it was sung by Three Dead Trolls. A group from Edmonton. In Alberta. Which is why it ends with "Albertaaaaaa....doesn't suck.....but Calgary does." (Incidentally, this song was widely thought to have led to the cancellation of their short-lived TV show.)

The Worms are from Ontario, and would never pen such lyrics.

I swear, if one more Easterner tries claiming that it's an Arrogant Worms song, I'm gonna join some western separatist party.....

The original:

zcdHsAyjV-w

[Davidlpf]

I thought this thread could use a sense of humour.

[D'rok]

You know, that's really, really irritating. Infuriating, actually.

Not the song- I love the song. But the fact that it's always attributed to The Arrogant Worms, when it was sung by Three Dead Trolls. A group from Edmonton. In Alberta. Which is why it ends with "Albertaaaaaa....doesn't suck.....but Calgary does." (Incidentally, this song was widely thought to have led to the cancellation of their short-lived TV show.)

The Worms are from Ontario, and would never pen such lyrics.

I swear, if one more Easterner tries claiming that it's an Arrogant Worms song, I'm gonna join some western separatist party.....

The original:

zcdHsAyjV-w

I get them mixed up too, even though I've seen the Trolls many times.

[Praktik]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j235/mrtoronto/TAD1-AP-May27-06-IMGP0098.jpg

http://mrtoronto.blogspot.com/

[D'rok]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j235/mrtoronto/TAD1-AP-May27-06-IMGP0098.jpg

http://mrtoronto.blogspot.com/
Is this guy for real?

I think holding a Toronto appreciation day in Montreal and then fighting "The Dancing Cock Brothers" when they sing a mocking song is pretty much the funniest thing I've seen/heard all week.

http://dancingcockbrothers.com/

ETA: Aha. Mr. Toronto is indeed satire.

http://www.cbc.ca/thelens/program_281007.html

[Praktik]

ya the documentary is hilarious and highly recommended.:)

The calgary scenes are great!

[Madalch]

I get them mixed up too, even though I've seen the Trolls many times.

....

I can't imagine getting them mixed up. That's almost like getting Mr. Dressup mixed up with George Carlin.

I've never heard the Worms do anything that I wouldn't let my eight-year-old listen to. The Trolls, on the other hand....