Looking for suggestions for book on Eastern Front during WWII

[Praktik]

So I'm 1100 pages into The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich which has spawned many PVR recordings from the Military and History channel on WWII topics and I find myself drawn to the eastern front.

Just hitting that part now in Rise and Fall and would love to hear what JREFers think are the most engaging and thorough accounts of the eastern front in book form.

One thing is that Rise and Fall really focuses on the German perspective and I'd love to read in more detail an account that also fleshes out the Russian perspective.

Any tips?

[Skeptic]

For a general overview, "Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives" gives a very good idea, although the subject you're interested in is more in the later part of the book. Another book that got good reviews, but I haven't read, is Gilbert's "Absolute War: Soviet Russia in the Second World War". Gilbert in general is a good historian.

Also, for overall military history that has a lot about the eastern front, The Third Reich at War -- the third volume of the Third Reich history by Richard Evans. In fact, naturally, most general military histories of WWII (or Nazi Germany, or Hitler) dedicate a large amount of writing to the eastern front.

By the way: Shirer is a classic, but somewhat outdated. He does, however, have the advantage that he was CBS' correspondent in Berlin until 1941 -- which gives him first-hand knowledge the next generation of historians didn't have. I highly recommend his Berlin Diary, not for general history, but for a personal account.

Probably the best current histories of the Third Reich in general are Evans' (above), Kershaw's Hitler (you would be interested in vol. 2, Nemesis, 1936-1945), and the very interesting (which I am currently reading) The Third Reich: A New History by Martin Burleigh.

[Praktik]

By the way: Shirer is a classic, but somewhat outdated. He does, however, have the advantage that he was CBS' correspondent in Berlin until 1941 -- which gives him first-hand knowledge the next generation of historians didn't have. I highly recommend his Berlin Diary, not for general history, but for a personal account.

Yes, the asides against homosexuality when listing the depravities of Nazi high-ups definitely dated the book! I was also thinking there'd be awesome stuff available now with the opening of the soviet archives after the end of the cold war...

thanks for the tips!

[dudalb]

"Absolute War: Soviet Russia in the Second World War " by Chris Bellamy and "The Russo German War 1941-1945" by Albert Seaton are the two best one volume histories of the Eastern Front out there.

[Gawdzilla]

Try visiting Hyperwar (http://www.ibiblio.net/hyperwar/)

[kedo1981]

Book!
You doon need no stinkin book
Get on I-tunes and look up the Hard Core History pod cast.
The guy is Dan Carlin and he has an amazing approach to historical commentary that will make you a believer.
He just did a 4 part series on the war on the eastern front that will curl your hair.
Ghosts of the Osfront.

[Bikewer]

If you're interested in the air war on the Eastern front, there are several volumes in this series:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Cross-Red-Star-Barbarossa/dp/B001LIUHJE/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259800798&sr=8-10

As I recall, they came recommended by the virtual Eastern-Front pilots who fly the excellent Sturmovik flightsim.

[dudalb]

If you're interested in the air war on the Eastern front, there are several volumes in this series:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Cross-Red-Star-Barbarossa/dp/B001LIUHJE/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259800798&sr=8-10

As I recall, they came recommended by the virtual Eastern-Front pilots who fly the excellent Sturmovik flightsim.



Sturmovik rocks!
I just wish the design team would get on with their Battle of Britain Simulation....

[kuroyume0161]

I can't find it at Amazon (since it has been nearly 20 years) but my friend's father had me read an intriguing book on WWII from the Russian perspective (The Great War or The Great Patriotic War or something similar). It was interesting to note the trials and tribulations of the Russians which are omitted from history on our side. Nazi Germany first made a treaty with Bolshevik Russia (USSR) before Operation Barbarossa wherein the Germans invaded Russia using their Blitzkrieg strategy en route to Kiev and Stalingrad and hopefully Moscow. Stalin, bastard or not, was cognizant enough to move his military and manufacturing enterprises to eastern Russia to produce and amass the forces and equipment necessary to repel the invasion. He sacrificed the western cities and populace but the counter-offensive was engaged full force in late 1941.

The obvious overall strategy of the Third Reich was to defeat the USSR and combine forces with the Japanese occupying China. Unfortunately, two things intervened: the same mistake as Napoleon and that Nazis had no intention of equal partnership with Italy or Japan (their overall scheme was to be the 'master race' over all others - period). Italy, Japan, Czechoslovakia, et al were just pawns in the grand scheme of their Eugenic mania.

[Praktik]

thanks for the titles everyone! I gotz a lot of reading to do!

And thanks kedo for the podcast suggestion I do a lot of mindless excel stuff at work AND I have an hour commute both ways, so I think I'll give it a whirl!

[Skeptic]

Yes, the asides against homosexuality when listing the depravities of Nazi high-ups definitely dated the book! I was also thinking there'd be awesome stuff available now with the opening of the soviet archives after the end of the cold war...

thanks for the tips!

It's not so much homosexuals as such, but Hitler's hypocritical "shock" at discovering the SA is full of homosexuals. As the joke at the time said, "Whatever will he do when he finds out about Goebbles' club foot?"

[Praktik]

Ya I can look up some passages but Shirer he basically lists off a bunch of depravities, and includes homosexuality in there with murder, fraud and extortion..;)

Kinda dated the book but he was a product of his time of course...

[Comsat Angel]

I second the Seaton book. For a very long and detailed look from the Russian side, try John Erickson's "The Road to Stalingrad" and "The Road to Berlin".

[Praktik]

Book!
You doon need no stinkin book
Get on I-tunes and look up the Hard Core History pod cast.
The guy is Dan Carlin and he has an amazing approach to historical commentary that will make you a believer.
He just did a 4 part series on the war on the eastern front that will curl your hair.
Ghosts of the Osfront.

Starting it now!

[Giz]

I would highly recommend Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad. An amazing blend of detail, analysis and readability.

It obviously focuses on Stalingrad but there is also a good amount of detail about the lead up to the actual battle (setting up the intial stages of Barbarossa etc).

[dudalb]

I would highly recommend Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad. An amazing blend of detail, analysis and readability.

It obviously focuses on Stalingrad but there is also a good amount of detail about the lead up to the actual battle (setting up the intial stages of Barbarossa etc).

David Glantz.probably the premier historian of the Eastern Front in English, is writing a three volume history of the Stalingrad Campaign, of which the first volumn has been published. It ends in August, just when the Germans had reached Stalingrad. The Second volumn is due out this month.

It's excellent, using a lot of recently opened Russian archieve material,but it's not for the beginner. It's really aimed at those who are are already familiar with the Stalingrad campaign. Newcomers will find themselves confused by his use of a lot of Military Technical terms which he expects the reader to be familiar with.
BUt it includes a detailed account of the Caucausus campaign,one of the few books in English to do so.
It's really more of a history of the whole 1942 campaign in South Russia, with Stalingrad as the centerpiece.
BUt is heartily concur that Beevor's books is the best single volume history of Stalingrad around, and very accesable to the newcomer.

[Matthew Ellard]

Just hitting that part now in Rise and Fall and would love to hear what JREFers think are the most engaging and thorough accounts of the eastern front in book form.

Any tips?


I have read book after book on the military events of the Russian front and I still find it hard to form a clear picture. The most interesting period is the collapse of the German "middle army group" in June 1944. 21 German divisions were annihilated and the Russians made it to Warsaw in what must have been the most awful battles. There are not many military books on this period. Everynow and then some Russian farmer discovers a German tank in the bottom of rivers from when the Germans simply ran and abandoned everything. http://www.12mbdragoons.com/panzer/

[Giz]

I have read book after book on the military events of the Russian front and I still find it hard to form a clear picture. The most interesting period is the collapse of the German "middle army group" in June 1944. 21 German divisions were annihilated and the Russians made it to Warsaw in what must have been the most awful battles. There are not many military books on this period. Everynow and then some Russian farmer discovers a German tank in the bottom of rivers from when the Germans simply ran and abandoned everything. http://www.12mbdragoons.com/panzer/

Bagration/The Destruction of Army Group Center is definitely one of the less well known of the major WW2 battles (from a western point of view)… probably as it kicked off only 2 weeks after D-Day.

This was the book where I first read about it in detail, which was decent (though not up to Beevor standards of readability):
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Greatest-Defeat-Collapse-Centre/dp/1898800073

[Matthew Ellard]

Bagration/The Destruction of Army Group Center is definitely one of the less well known of the major WW2 battles (from a western point of view)… probably as it kicked off only 2 weeks after D-Day.

This was the book where I first read about it in detail, which was decent (though not up to Beevor standards of readability):
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Greatest-Defeat-Collapse-Centre/dp/1898800073

I have this book. I have a divisional history of the German division Grossdeutschland, which describes the actual battles in a little bit more detail. Grossdeutschland ceased to exist in north Prussia. I have little sympathy for the Germans but it must have been awful.

When I was young the "Russian front" was just a running gag in Hogan's Heroes. I thought that the Battle of the Bulge had King Tigers plowing through the forest battling "Shermans". I now realise all the really big armour battles were in the east. There was no point sending King Tigers to battle little "Shermans" in France when you had Russian KV-1 and Joseph Stalin tanks driving straight for you in the east. There is a Russian tank museum called Kubinka. It is the world's biggest tank museum and it is full to the brim with heavy german armour including the 150 ton "Maus". I have added the link as it has photos of the "German hall of tanks"

"Main page"
http://www.tankmuseum.ru/

"German hall"
http://www.tankmuseum.ru/p6.html

[Praktik]

Saw a pretty cool restoration of this tank, the Elefant/Ferdinand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefant) on the military channel:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Elefant_USAOM-01.jpg

The tank in the show is actually the exact one above, stored at the United States Army Ordnance Museum.

Not the greatest tank, pretty unweildy and prone to failure actually, but its still crazy cool just for being so big!

[Matthew Ellard]

Not the greatest tank, pretty unweildy and prone to failure actually, but its still crazy cool just for being so big!

I missed this episode which was a pity. You are looking at a Ferdinand which has been converted into a Elephant. It is indeed a "Porche" designed by, and named after Ferdinand Porsche. Ferdinand Porsche designed some of the worst german tanks ever including the "Maus".

German tanks types have an "Ausführung" or "type" designation and a SdKfz number.
The Porsche SdKfz 184 is the Elephant tank
The Porsche 9001 is a sports car for groovers.

You can't say the company didn't experiment with different vehicle types.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus

[Matthew Ellard]

BUt it includes a detailed account of the Caucausus campaign,one of the few books in English to do so.
It's really more of a history of the whole 1942 campaign in South Russia, with Stalingrad as the centerpiece.

Stalingrad goes to show Hitler was an idiot. Germany does all the large sweeping moves and penetrates deep into Russia. At Stalingrad Hitler starts his "not a step backwards" edict and ends German mobile warfare. The Battle of Kursk was just a "slogging match" and both sides lost 3/4 of their armour. Russia could make more tanks. Germany could not.

[Comsat Angel]

"Not the greatest tank, pretty unweildy and prone to failure actually, but its still crazy cool just for being so big! "

You want "big"? Young man, come to Bovington Tank Museum and be awestruck at the TOG.

"There was no point sending King Tigers to battle little "Shermans" in France when you had Russian KV-1 and Joseph Stalin tanks driving straight for you in the east."

Treadheads are still squabbling about every single point raised in your sentence to this very day. I shall forebear.

[habu]

Book!
You doon need no stinkin book
Get on I-tunes and look up the Hard Core History pod cast.
The guy is Dan Carlin and he has an amazing approach to historical commentary that will make you a believer.
He just did a 4 part series on the war on the eastern front that will curl your hair.
Ghosts of the Osfront.
Thanks for this recommendation. I downloaded them last night and spend most of the day today at work enthralled. It is very well done, IMO.

[Gawdzilla]

Saw a pretty cool restoration of this tank, the Elefant/Ferdinand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefant) on the military channel:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Elefant_USAOM-01.jpg

The tank in the show is actually the exact one above, stored at the United States Army Ordnance Museum.

Not the greatest tank, pretty unweildy and prone to failure actually, but its still crazy cool just for being so big!

Um, that's a SP, self-propelled gun. Tanks have turrets.

[Matthew Ellard]

You want "big"? Young man, come to Bovington Tank Museum and be awestruck at the TOG.

The TOG is a "girl's toy" compared to the Maus at the Kubinka tank museum. When those crazy Germans want to make something really stupid they do a very good job.

Treadheads are still squabbling about every single point raised in your sentence to this very day. I shall forebear.

Hmmmmm....do I hear the tones of a fellow treadhead? I know there was a heavy tank workgroup in the Ardennes with King Tigers but most vehicles were normal tanks due to the petrol shortage and the distance they had to travel.

[Matthew Ellard]

Um, that's a SP, self-propelled gun. Tanks have turrets.

I know you! You are that historian from the Skeptic Society forum who I talk to every day.

You are correct that the Ferdinand is a self propelled gun.

However if you can find a turret on any english Mark 1 to mark V "tank" you are doing better than I am. I think "tank" is a general term for most of these tracked vehicles in general conversation. I will use MBT, AFV, APC from now on and bore a whole new forum of people.

[Praktik]

Um, that's a SP, self-propelled gun. Tanks have turrets.

right right, they mentioned that in the show too... guess i temporarily forgot!

anyway christmas comin up soon gonna have a few books in here on order..;) thanks again everyone!

[kookbreaker]

I know you! You are that historian from the Skeptic Society forum who I talk to every day.

You are correct that the Ferdinand is a self propelled gun.

However if you can find a turret on any english Mark 1 to mark V "tank" you are doing better than I am. I think "tank" is a general term for most of these tracked vehicles in general conversation. I will use MBT, AFV, APC from now on and bore a whole new forum of people.

The real fun is that WW2 was host to a bunch of mechanized weapons/etc that did not see fruition after the war: The Half-Track, The Tank Destroyer, the SPG. Armored Cars kinda went into a decline as well, or at least a name and design change.

[dudalb]

I was going to scream at Praktik for calling the Ferdinand a Tank, but I see that has already been done.
Why do I get a feeling I have some fellow Advanced Squad Leader players here?

[Vic Vega]

Enemy at the Gates: The Battle for Stalingrad by William Craig.

Fantastic book.

[kookbreaker]

I was going to scream at Praktik for calling the Ferdinand a Tank, but I see that has already been done.
Why do I get a feeling I have some fellow Advanced Squad Leader players here?

I never went Advanced.

[Normal Dude]

Why do I get a feeling I have some fellow Advanced Squad Leader players here?

I used to play that game more than was healthy for one person. Nowadays I play Combat Mission (If you like tactical wargaming, you owe it to yourself to check that out).

[dudalb]

I used to play that game more than was healthy for one person. Nowadays I play Combat Mission (If you like tactical wargaming, you owe it to yourself to check that out).

OH, I have all the Combat Missions installed except for the Modern Ones, which I do not like.
It's nice that Battlefront released a patch recently that solved the problems the games were having with the more modern OS's and Video Cards. I think they felt they owed that to the fans since "Combat Mission :Campaign" fell through.
BTW Combat Mission Started out as Avalon Hill's second attempt to bring ASL to the computer. When Avalon Hill folded for all practical purposes Battlefront retained the rights to the unfinished program and then went ahead with the game, but just removed all mention of ASL for copyright reasons.
I also really like John Tillers "Campaign Series" which is available in a package from Matrix Games.
And their free download of Steel Panthers, World At War is one of the best freebies I have seen on the Internet.

[Normal Dude]

OH, I have all the Combat Missions installed except for the Modern Ones, which I do not like.

I'm an internal beta tester for the second generation of Combat Mission. Make sure to keep an eye out for the new WW2 version coming out next year. It is going to kick butt. :D

[Gawdzilla]

I know you! You are that historian from the Skeptic Society forum who I talk to every day.

You are correct that the Ferdinand is a self propelled gun.

However if you can find a turret on any english Mark 1 to mark V "tank" you are doing better than I am. I think "tank" is a general term for most of these tracked vehicles in general conversation. I will use MBT, AFV, APC from now on and bore a whole new forum of people.

*waves*

[Gawdzilla]

The real fun is that WW2 was host to a bunch of mechanized weapons/etc that did not see fruition after the war: The Half-Track, The Tank Destroyer, the SPG. Armored Cars kinda went into a decline as well, or at least a name and design change.

SturmTiger. Strangest tank winner in the WTF category.

[Praktik]

I found this very interesting review (http://www.gotterdammerung.org/books/reviews/w/when-titans-clashed.html) of the Glantz and House When Titans Clashed and found the reviewer to possess some really valuable insights into Soviet decision making and also the Winter War.

So I've emailed the guy for more suggestions and will post back I get the feeling he might have some good ideas for further reading!

[dudalb]

I'm an internal beta tester for the second generation of Combat Mission. Make sure to keep an eye out for the new WW2 version coming out next year. It is going to kick butt. :D


Great! What will the first game cover?

[Normal Dude]

Great! What will the first game cover?

Normandy up until September. First installment will cover US Army and Wehrmacht, second will cover the Commonwealth and SS, and the third will be "funny" odds and ends. The pace of stuff being released will be much more rapid than has been previously since they are streamlining the development process.

[kookbreaker]

SturmTiger. Strangest tank winner in the WTF category.

It would have been great had it arrived a couple years earlier. But for an army on the defensive it kinda made no sense.

The Canal Defense Lights were kinda wonky in my mind.

The Tzar Tank from WW1 is a gut-buster, though.

But the winner for me? The T-35 Stalin Tank. The tank made for a future Anime cliche.

[dudalb]

The T-35 is a good example of the Stalin's regime fondness for "Huge Regardless of Practicality" . A tank with five Turrets proves to be almost useless in combat because it is so heavy it breaks down all the time. Big Surprise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-35_tank
And the Germans came a cropper with their superheavy tank "The Maus". That sucker required two engines. Only a couple of prototype models were made before the war ended. It was so heavy it could not have crossed most bridges safely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus

[bignickel]

I wonder sometimes if the German engineering drive to the 'super-tank' was an attempt to create land 'naval' vessels... Cruisers and Battleships steering on land, instead of sea.

Although when they're that heavy, they would obviously tend to 'sink' into ground enough that they stop 'sailing'.

[dudalb]

I wonder sometimes if the German engineering drive to the 'super-tank' was an attempt to create land 'naval' vessels... Cruisers and Battleships steering on land, instead of sea.

Although when they're that heavy, they would obviously tend to 'sink' into ground enough that they stop 'sailing'.

Actually the Soviet T-35 came closer to being a "Land Warship" with it's multiple turrets.
The Maus was more of an attempt to create a "Movable Pillbox".Problem was it was too hard to move.

[Matthew Ellard]

I wonder sometimes if the German engineering drive to the 'super-tank' was an attempt to create land 'naval' vessels... Cruisers and Battleships steering on land, instead of sea.

Although when they're that heavy, they would obviously tend to 'sink' into ground enough that they stop 'sailing'.

I think Dr Porche wanted to experiment with hybrid petrol electric engines. The "Elefant" and the "Maus" both had these hybrid engines. Most modern diesel locomotives use this system but it is too heavy for a tank. The German army did almost finish a normal monster tank, the E-100 but it was still too big and din't meet any real need.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/entwicklung-series-standard-series.htm

[Matthew Ellard]

Actually the Soviet T-35 came closer to being a "Land Warship" with it's multiple turrets.
The Maus was more of an attempt to create a "Movable Pillbox".Problem was it was too hard to move.

David Fletcher is the staff historian of Bovington Tank Museum. He is a very funny man and talks about the multiple turrets on the British "Independence" tank. It is like reading a Monty Python skit what the poor gunners had to do in mutiple turrets. He describes a British 1930's tank show where little tankettes drove around the "Independence" to make it seem bigger than it actually was just before they dumped the concept.

[Praktik]

Absolute War: Soviet Russia in the Second World War: A Modern History, by Chris Bellamy

I think I picked the right one to start with.

The preface includes a rather thorough list of sources he used too - so also a good jumping off point for recent developments in the field.

He got access to so much cool new stuff. He has a lot on the NKVD and NKGB and says that their role was much larger than previously thought...

exciting times!