Improper Knowledge: Atheists, Christians and the Bible

[The idea]

All explanations, hypotheses, and speculations are welcome here.

[Humphreys]

Most Christians I have met read the Bible unquestioningly and therefore do not learn a great deal about it.

Atheists tend to study the Bible more thoroughly to find any inconsistencies, absurdities, and immoral acts etc.

In short, Atheists study the Bible very critically, whereas Christians read it just to feel the love of god. They don't want to look too hard because deep down they do not want to find anything that will destroy their faith. Some do not read it at all for the same reason.

But it isn't necessarily true that Atheists tend to know more about the Bible. I have known other Christians who read the Bible constantly and obsessively, and Atheists who brush it aside as silliness and go do something more worthwhile. Like drinking.

[Iacchus]

The Bible is obviously flawed so atheists seeking self-justification focus on an easy target: the Bible.

I voted for this because the Bible is "conceived" as an easy target.

However, you can't attack it based upon what it is which, is merely a remnant of what's been passed down. Sure there are descrepancies, but that doesn't prove anything about how it originated. And this is what we need to get at ... What is the essence of the Bible and Christianity?

[Andonyx]

I've read parts of it as a result of my religious (moderately religious) upbringing, parts of it I have read for religion, culture and philosophy classes, and parts of it I have read of my own interest.

But regardless of its legitimacy as a historical or philosophical text, there is no denying the sweeping influence it has had on western and some non-western civilizations for millenia. I think people should read a good deal of it in order to be culturally literate and informed about the nature of ideologies influencing many of our socio-political movements and conflicts in the world today.

You can probably skip kings, numbers, judges, ester, Isaiah, Joel, Jonas, Habbakuk, Obediah, Nahamuh, Nahum, Amos, and Hosea.

ETA: By the same token I should read the Koran, The magna carta, pax whatever, and orations...but I still have time.

[Keneke]

Other. Very strongly other. Christians go in looking for faith-affirming passages, while atheists usually go in to find inconsistencies or fallacies. The bible is such a big book that whatever you want to find, you probably will find, for either side. Seek, and ye shall find.

[whitefork]

"none of the above".

I don't know how anyone can appreciate much of western literature without at least some knowledge of the bible. The KJV is a literary masterpiece in many places.

Besides, the Devil can quote scripture, too. (The Book of Job is perhaps a refutation of the rest)

[wayrad]

I don't know the Bible particularly well, sad to say. But I would imagine that the impact of running into an atheist that does would cause many fundamentalists begin seeing the overeducated creatures everywhere. :D

[wayrad]

Actually, shouldn't there be another option? I think many people here have become familiar with opposing viewpoints simply out of fair-mindedness.

[epepke]

I couldn't decide on a good reply. They don't seem to form a partitioning.

I'm an atheist, and I know the Bible and other religious texts better than any Christian I've ever met.

[The idea]

Okay, if I create a similar poll in future, then I will include the following options:

In their quest for a general cultural literacy, many atheists acquire more knowledge of the Bible than the average philistine Christian does.

Many atheists judge that, to come to a fair conclusion about the Bible, they need to know a fair amount about the Bible, but, to the average Christian, that degree of knowledge and fairness is excessive.

[wayrad]

Originally posted by The idea
Okay, if I create a similar poll in future, then I will include the following options:

In their quest for a general cultural literacy, many atheists acquire more knowledge of the Bible than the average philistine Christian does.

Many atheists judge that, to come to a fair conclusion about the Bible, they need to know a fair amount about the Bible, but, to the average Christian, that degree of knowledge and fairness is excessive.
And don't forget the planet X option; it's traditional. :D

[Zero]

Have you ever noticed that many Christians read the Bible by leaping from section to section? It is easy to pretend that it makes sense when you are taught by the preacher to skip around and read the parts you feel like.

[Dymanic]

I voted two options (I wasn't sure if that would work, actually, and I should have noted the counts before and after I voted -- because I didn't, I still don't know for sure...anyway, it didn't gong me or anything).

I liked both of these options equally well:

Most Christians find it easier to believe when they don't think about WHAT it is that they believe.

and:

Those who study the Bible enough tend to become atheists.

I'd say that careful and thoughtful reading of the Bible was central to my becoming an atheist.

[Dorian Gray]

It all comes down to avoiding being burned at the stake.

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Zero
Have you ever noticed that many Christians read the Bible by leaping from section to section? It is easy to pretend that it makes sense when you are taught by the preacher to skip around and read the parts you feel like.

That's sort of my view- the average Christian may read the Bible a good deal, but only certain parts. Many times you'll find they can quote, say, the NT pretty well, but when it comes to OT material... a few passages and thats it.

[c4ts]

Atheists are purposefully misrepresented to create intoleracnce, which makes them an easy scapegoat.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Zero
Have you ever noticed that many Christians read the Bible by leaping from section to section? It is easy to pretend that it makes sense when you are taught by the preacher to skip around and read the parts you feel like.

The thing is, the bible is such a jumbled mish mash of different people's writings from different times and different places, it really doesn't make much of a difference.

Yes, you can't go ahead and ignore the parts where God commands somebody to do something attrocious and unthinkable because it doesn't fit your conception of the religion, but in terms of just getting a feel for what was supposed to have happened, you can easily skip like 9 books and be none the worse for the plot.

Because most of it doesn't make any sense anyway.

[schubertiad]

It has been my experience that Christians find it burdensome and unnecessary to get bogged down in the critical analysis of the Bible. In a sense, it's ironic, considering that church groups offer Bible studies all the time. But these studies are led by individuals who are trusted to get certain predetermined points across. Such study groups (almost completely composed of believers) are hardly free to point out the contradictions and mistakes. To do so would make them look faithless in front of their friends and would put doubt in the minds of others, which would hurt their standing in the church. They welcome non-believers to ask difficult questions, as long as no one actually has to come up with answers that honestly explain the weird parts and contradictions. A lot of church groups will say it's good to question your faith, or what you are reading in the Bible, because it will ultimately make you a stronger believer. The unspoken part is that you can question your faith as long as you don't cause others to question, and as long as you come around to accepting what you (supposedly) can't understand. The excuse is that if you don't understand a faith-based matter, it's because of our limited human understanding, not because of any (far more likely) errors in the text or illogicality in the situation. Pretty much, it's ok to question as long as you get over it and keep believing nonetheless. If it means you have to put the questions out of your mind, or pretend the questions no longer exist, so be it. Better to banish doubts than let the doubts separate you from God. You have to get beyond doubts if you want to keep your faith and support network of fellow Christians.
I can say from experience that the stakes are VERY high if your doubts make you walk away from your faith--in a lot of ways, you have to rebuild your life from square one. Very hard to do, too much for some to even contemplate. I did it, but I know a lot of people who couldn't imagine it. Too many strings to unravel. Too much rejection to face. Too much pain.

For many, it's better to keep on trusting, even if nothing makes sense.

It was that kind of intellectual dishonesty (among other things) that drove me away.

Life is worlds better now, but it was a hell of a rough transition.

[fishbob]

Other

I have been an atheist since I was a little kid.
I never got around to reading the bible - not particularly interested.
I don't personally know any other atheists.

[sparklecat]

Hah. Good post Schubertiad, I've noticed a good deal of that myself, though I came to a different conclusion than you. Critical analysis, a look at all sides of the issues, I've found in college classes though... I'm sure it's not perfect, but it has to be less biased than anything Church-led. At least my teacher/advisor can admit contradictions and errors :)

[gnome]

I imagine most atheists nit-pick in the bible to counter the influence of so many of those that claim that every word in the King James version is the literal truth, arrived at by the self-correcting mechanism of translating it through several languages.

It is easy to show that most of those that claim that either

- Actually don't believe every word is the truth, only say so, probably just to seem more pious.
or
- Must acknowledge that they agree with even the cruel and inhumane parts of the bible. These people need to be visible and known for exactly what they are.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by c4ts
Atheists are purposefully misrepresented to create intoleracnce, which makes them an easy scapegoat.
Bah! Any Psychologist's textbook will tell you Atheists are the reason the literacy rate has declined so much in recent time...

From dramatic purposes, I'll say it again: BAH!

[Upchurch]

I voted for
The Bible is obviously flawed so atheists seeking self-justification focus on an easy target: the Bible.
and
Other (please explain your point of view with plenty of examples and details).

I voted for the first one, while not agreeing with the exact wording, because the most common type of theist that an atheist must deal with here in the US is a Christian. When confronted, it is good for one to understand the details that one is being confronted about. So, atheists tend to read the bible not necessarily for self-justification but to justify their position on Christianity to Christians.

I voted for the second one because I think the reason many Christians don't read the Bible often is not up there. That is, because most Christains think they know and understand the Bible based on popularized versions (movies, TV shows, etc.) of it. Most Christians, I feel, are not confronted about the details of their beliefs as much as atheists are and, therefore, don't feel the need to be as familiar with the Bible.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Upchurch
[...] atheists tend to read the bible [...] to justify their position on Christianity to Christians.
[...] most Christians think they know and understand the Bible based on popularized versions (movies, TV shows, etc.) of it. Most Christians [...] are not confronted about the details of their beliefs as much as atheists are and, therefore, don't feel the need to be as familiar with the Bible.
If this is true (and it has a ring of truth to it), then atheists are working too hard! If tobacco companies had published a big book called The Joy and Harmlessness of Smoking, then would nonsmokers feel an obligation to acquire a detailed knowledge of the book?

[jj]

Originally posted by Andonyx
You can probably skip kings, numbers, judges, ester, Isaiah, Joel, Jonas, Habbakuk, Obediah, Nahamuh, Nahum, Amos, and Hosea.

What about Malachi? :D

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by The idea

If tobacco companies had published a big book called The Joy and Harmlessness of Smoking, then would nonsmokers feel an obligation to acquire a detailed knowledge of the book? Let's use a real example rather than a hypothetical one. There are whole websites dedicated to a line-by-line refutation of Ann Coulter's book Slander. I'd be willing to bet that those who disagree with her book know it far better than those who disagree with it.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'd be willing to bet that those who disagree with her book know it far better than those who disagree with it. That's a bet that I can't lose! I assume you meant "far better than those who agree with it."

[The idea]

That idea has an application to the education system. If lots of errors were deliberately inserted into textbooks, then would students acquire a greater mastery of the material?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by The idea
That's a bet that I can't lose! I assume you meant "far better than those who agree with it." D'oh! Yes, that is what I meant.

:hit:

[Zero]

Originally posted by Upchurch
D'oh! Yes, that is what I meant.

:hit: If that's what you mean, then I agree with you..oddly, the reverse isn't true, in that people who dislike Al Franken's book, don't actually know much about it. In the same way, most Christians not only don't know much about their own faith, they are also hugely ignorant of any other faith, or lack thereof...


...maybe this commonality of incomprehension explains why Christian evangelicals are drawn to political 'conservatives'?

[epepke]

Originally posted by The idea
Okay, if I create a similar poll in future, then I will include the following options:

In their quest for a general cultural literacy, many atheists acquire more knowledge of the Bible than the average philistine Christian does.

Many atheists judge that, to come to a fair conclusion about the Bible, they need to know a fair amount about the Bible, but, to the average Christian, that degree of knowledge and fairness is excessive.


I suppose that's fair.

As for myself, there was a time in my life that I do not care to remember very often when Christian doctrine was appealing to me, for some reason that I cannot adequately explain now. By that time, however, I was an avid reader, so I read the Bible. It disabused me of Christianity, at least.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Zero
If that's what you mean, then I agree with you..oddly, the reverse isn't true, in that people who dislike Al Franken's book, don't actually know much about it. In the same way, most Christians not only don't know much about their own faith, they are also hugely ignorant of any other faith, or lack thereof...... hm.

You know, I think you're probably right. I don't have any hard evidence, but based on what I've heard on various conservative radio talk shows, I honestly believe that liberals probably read more conservative books than conservatives read liberal books. Likewise, atheists probably read more religion books than theists do (since books on atheism would inherently also be about religion).

But what's the connection? Are liberals inherently atheistic? Are conservatives inherently religious? Is it skepticism that is the differentiator or is it just intellectual curiosity? It seems to me that one should be able to draw a conclusion from the comparison, but I'm not sure what that conclusion would be.
...maybe this commonality of incomprehension explains why Christian evangelicals are drawn to political 'conservatives'? mmm, maybe. To be "conservative" classically (that is, taken outside of political context) means to take a narrower, more "black and white" view of the world. For example, taking a conservative estimate is to keep the estimate as small as possible. In both the political and religious cases, there is more of a tendency to believe in absolutes: This is definitely right and that is definitely wrong, no question about it.

To be "liberal" often means accepting the possibility of shades of gray. Maybe by allowing for broader possibilities, liberal people have a tendency to develop more critical thinking skills in that they must rule possibilities out based on their individual merit rather than on black and white criteria?

I dunno. I'm just throwing an idea out here. I certainly know both liberals and conservatives (in the political sense) that don't fit either of the above descriptions. I also know liberals an conservatives that do. If we could devorce those labels from their political meanings and discuss this on a more philosophical level, I think this line of thought might go further.

This might need a new thread....

[Zero]

You'll note that I put "conservative" in quotes...I'm refering to the folks for whom their politics are of the same cloth as their religious beliefs. You know, full of black and white, based on dogma that doesn't match reality, dismissal of opposing viewpoints as being "evil"...

[Marquis de Carabas]

I voted other. The reaon your 'average' Christian hasn't read the Bible as deeply as some atheists is that they think they already know what's in there. They were raised hearing stories from the Bible from people they believe distilled the necessary information and gave it to them.

It's not really an exceptional fact. Few people I know have ever read Euclid's Elements or Galileo's Dialogue Concerning Two Chief World Systems or Newton's Principia. They have trusted that the important bits of knowledge so enshrined have been distilled for them by their teachers throughout life.

As for the atheists, I think it's important to notice which atheists fall into the "many atheists" of the poll question. In my experience, the atheists who have most studied the Bible have been the ones who were raised as Christians. Among the atheists I know personally their knowledge of the Bible is the best indicator of their parents' religious zeal. I was raised southern baptist and know it reasonably well. A friend of mine who was raised wiccan/other has barely ever cracked one.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Bah! BAH!
Bah-ram-ewe.