The Great Pyramid: For burial?, or sealing up knowledge?

[Iamme]

I love those shows on DISC Channel, TLC, or HIST Channel. They have been repeating one lately where they pose that the Pyramids were really built so that they could cover up all the knowledge of the universe, possibly given to us by aliens, under tons and tons of rock.

As silly as it sounds, doesn't that make more sense in coming up with such a convaluted way of entombing a Pharaoh, to guard against grave robbers or something? If that is what they wanted, then there should not have been passageways, and simply encased them in such a way that it be impossible to dig under the pyramids to loot the burial chamber, or to remove the stones to get to them.

As silly as the "end of days" story seems, - one has to wonder when it says in the Bible's Book of Daniel, that 'knowledge is to be locked up until the end of days". It really does say that. Today, we have modern marvels, becoming exponentially marvellous. We have the emergence of the book, The Bible Code. We may be on the doorstep of getting to the bottom of what secrets the pyramids are really guarding?

Have you seen also on that same airing, how there are these like 800 ton carved rocks that have like perfect lazer-sharp grooves in them (I mean these things are perfect...perfect straight and width and depth, so they appear on camera, with sharp edges), intended to act as like locking keyway joints? Who stood up these stones? For what reason?, other than to blow the minds off us present Earthlings?, becasue they knew that we wod not be able to figure it out. Who cut them grooves? How? With what? Is it preposterous to believe aliens came here and assisted us with anti-gravity machines or something? Why else were all these people around the world, erecting huge rock formations?

Today, I was vigorously shaking a can of spray paint, trying to get the mixing ball inside to sound-off - and it pooped me out! You really believe human beings were made to work every day for years and years on end, tugging rocks up some ramp or something, without falling over dead from exhaustion in the hot equatorial sun?

What are your thoughts on this.

[Pure Argent]

I love those shows on DISC Channel, TLC, or HIST Channel. They have been repeating one lately where they pose that the Pyramids were really built so that they could cover up all the knowledge of the universe, possibly given to us by aliens, under tons and tons of rock.

I hate those shows. They're just nonsense, and they detract from the value of the channels.

As silly as it sounds, doesn't that make more sense in coming up with such a convaluted way of entombing a Pharaoh, to guard against grave robbers or something?

No, not really. I can't find a reference for it, but I believe I once heard that the Egyptians believed that the corridors were necessary to allow the statues placed in the pyramids to fulfill their functions as guardians. They were supposed to come alive at night and wander the corridors to protect the king's remains from thieves.

As silly as the "end of days" story seems, - one has to wonder when it says in the Bible's Book of Daniel, that 'knowledge is to be locked up until the end of days". It really does say that.

Yes, the Bible says a lot of stuff, most of it crap.

Today, we have modern marvels, becoming exponentially marvellous. We have the emergence of the book, The Bible Code.

Which is nonsense.

We may be on the doorstep of getting to the bottom of what secrets the pyramids are really guarding?

Such as?

Have you seen also on that same airing, how there are these like 800 ton carved rocks that have like perfect lazer-sharp grooves in them (I mean these things are perfect...perfect straight and width and depth, so they appear on camera, with sharp edges), intended to act as like locking keyway joints?

No, I haven't seen this. Can you give pictures?

Who stood up these stones?

Egyptian slaves (I assume that these stones are part of the pyramids; I'm not sure).

For what reason? other than to blow the minds off us present Earthlings?

Well, actually, in a way that is their purpose. The pyramids are meant to be impressive. They were a symbol of the Pharaoh's might, his divinity and supremacy.

becasue they knew that we wod not be able to figure it out.

We have. Experiments have been done - I saw another documentary where a team of men showed that it was possible to move the stone blocks necessary to build the pyramids, and to stack them as the Egyptian slaves did, given only a few simple items (mainly rope). And remember, the Egyptians had an unlimited supply of slave labor.

Who cut them grooves?

Slaves again. Or artisans.

How? With what?

Chisels.

Is it preposterous to believe aliens came here and assisted us with anti-gravity machines or something?

Yes.

Why else were all these people around the world, erecting huge rock formations?

Because they meant it to be impressive. It was, after all, for their god-king.

Today, I was vigorously shaking a can of spray paint, trying to get the mixing ball inside to sound-off - and it pooped me out! You really believe human beings were made to work every day for years and years on end, tugging rocks up some ramp or something, without falling over dead from exhaustion in the hot equatorial sun?

It's amazing how many little problems can be made to go away with an unlimited supply of expendable slave labor, isn't it?

[Gate2501]

As silly as the "end of days" story seems, - one has to wonder when it says in the Bible's Book of Daniel, that 'knowledge is to be locked up until the end of days".

That is crazy. It is almost as if they knew that humans would progress in our understanding of the universe with time.

I'm sold.

[hgc]

As silly as it sounds, doesn't that make more sense in coming up with such a convaluted way of entombing a Pharaoh, to guard against grave robbers or something?


No

We may be on the doorstep of getting to the bottom of what secrets the pyramids are really guarding?


The only limit to what the answer might be is your imagination -- fantasize away!

Who cut them grooves? How? With what? Is it preposterous to believe aliens came here and assisted us with anti-gravity machines or something? Why else were all these people around the world, erecting huge rock formations?


Nothing new about monumental architecture. The reasons are well known. Nothing new about technology for measuring, cutting, moving and lifting stones either. But if I had to stick my fingers in my ears on the rare occassion that one of those crap TV channels you refer to shows a decent show about the evidence-based suppositions and conclusions about how the pyramids were built, I would rather go with Ra/Horus/Isis-did-it rather than aliens-did-it.


Today, I was vigorously shaking a can of spray paint, trying to get the mixing ball inside to sound-off - and it pooped me out! You really believe human beings were made to work every day for years and years on end, tugging rocks up some ramp or something, without falling over dead from exhaustion in the hot equatorial sun?


If you had to shake a paint can all day, every day in order to get a scrap of food, you'd do it just fine.

[Marduk]

a pyramid represents the mound of Atum and as such is a symbol of rebirth
the pyramid is therefore typical egyptian tomb shape and that shapes evolution is well documented as developing from Mastabas (Tombs)
the pyramid is in the middle of a necropolis (city of the dead)
the pyramid has a mortuary temple outside (temple for saying prayers for the dead)
the pyramid has a burial chamber
the pyramid has a sarcophagus

which of these tell you that it wasn't built as a tomb ?

btw pure argent, the pyramid wasn't built by slaves, it was built by off season farmers and other various tradesmen

[Checkmite]

As silly as it sounds, doesn't that make more sense in coming up with such a convaluted way of entombing a Pharaoh, to guard against grave robbers or something? If that is what they wanted, then there should not have been passageways, and simply encased them in such a way that it be impossible to dig under the pyramids to loot the burial chamber, or to remove the stones to get to them.

Pyramids were not built to protect the dead kings from grave robbers; simple sealed doors served that function. The purpose of a pyramid was essentially to be a big giant tremendous stone thing that, as far as the Egyptians were concerned, could never be destroyed or eroded away, and that future generations would associate with that particular king for all time. They had the right idea, too; many pyramids are fulfilling their purpose beautifully, thousands of years later.

The reason for the passageways was that the pyramids were built while the king was alive, and when he died, the funerary contingent needed to be able to get the guy's body from the outside of the pyramid to the inside of the pyramid. At the time the pyramids were being built (4th through 6th Dynasties), the notion that anyone would break into a pyramid to steal the dead king's stuff was unconscionable.

Hundreds (and thousands) of years going by brought foreign invaders of all kinds, and looser morals amongst the domestics, and pyramids and pretty much any tomb of any kind whose entrance was at all exposed was cleaned out pretty well.

There is also a marked and (almost) complete absence of writing of any kind inside the Great Pyramid, which makes one wonder just how any kind of "knowledge" was supposed to be stored there.

[tyr_13]

That's right, the ancients were able to figure out the nature of the universe, without knowing about particle physics, telescopes, gravity, or even basic hygiene.

Those are mighty smart ancients. Don't get me wrong, they knew how to do a lot related to what they wanted to do, like make pyramids which also reinforced their rule. The assumption that they were 'only' tombs is silly.

[the_eye]

We have. Experiments have been done - I saw another documentary where a team of men showed that it was possible to move the stone blocks necessary to build the pyramids, and to stack them as the Egyptian slaves did, given only a few simple items (mainly rope). And remember, the Egyptians had an unlimited supply of slave labor.

The Builders of the Pyramids weren't Slaves, but rather a semi-privileged working class, who were paid.

I always found the Idea that Aliens built the Pyramids on a racist myth, that the Ancient Human were inferior to Modern Westerners.

[Akhenaten]

The Great Pyramid: For burial?, or sealing up knowledge?


Resurrection Machine. Nothing more or less.

[imjohn]

The Great Pyramid: For burial?, or sealing up knowledge?


Resurrection Machine. Nothing more or less.
Pretty damn important use if that's what you're after.

[plumjam]

That's right, the ancients were able to figure out the nature of the universe, without knowing about particle physics, telescopes, gravity, or even basic hygiene.

Geez. The ancients didn't know about gravity, or how to wash themselves?
I'd better watch more of this Discovery Channel thing. Sounds amazing.

[Bikewer]

Carving those "laser-straight" grooves involved fantastically advanced technology.....String.

The technique was demonstrated on one of those National Geographic segments; you just hold the string taut like a chalk-line and then use an abrasive (sand) to cut the groove. It's how ancient stone-cutters cut the stone as well; once you have a nice straight groove you insert wedges and apply pressure....

[hgc]

Carving those "laser-straight" grooves involved fantastically advanced technology.....String.

The technique was demonstrated on one of those National Geographic segments; you just hold the string taut like a chalk-line and then use an abrasive (sand) to cut the groove. It's how ancient stone-cutters cut the stone as well; once you have a nice straight groove you insert wedges and apply pressure....


Only aliens had string in those days. Why would Egyptians have string? For what purpose? Surely not to cut grooves, since the aliens did that for them.

Then the string-making knowledge was then hidden deep in the pyramids.

[Toke]

The boatmen in the Suez channel is a clear indication that the pyramids were built by aliens, just like the long shore men in L.A. unmasks the moon hoax. :D

Anyway, what is the problem with the pyramids as a prestige project for the Egyptians?

[Gawdzilla]

Sigh, oh sigh.

First, the Great Pyramid is a pile of freaking stones, engineering on a sub-Leggo level.

As for the 800 ton stones with laser edges, you can do the same thing at home. Rub to stones together for a few days and you'll get the exact same effect. If you have 500 people pushing on stone, 250 on each side, you can do bigger stones. (This was done in Indiana in the '80s, just to see if it would work, and it did.)

[Marduk]

I expect the 800 ton stones being referenced are those in the trilithium at baalbek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek
these date from the Roman period and were moved 1/4 of a mile from the quarry, the method is totally explained and understood and well within the abilities of Roman engineers of the time

the largest stone ever moved by man without machinery was the thunderstone. This was moved in the 18th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bronze_Horseman#The_largest_stone_ever_moved_b y_man.3F
its cutting and movement is entirely documented and proves as this is the largest stone ever moved that aliens are not required for any other megalith which is smaller, which is ALL of them
;)

[Gawdzilla]

I expect the 800 ton stones being referenced are those in the trilithium at baalbek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek
these date from the Roman period and were moved 1/4 of a mile from the quarry, the method is totally explained and understood and well within the abilities of Roman engineers of the time

the largest stone ever moved by man without machinery was the thunderstone. This was moved in the 18th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bronze_Horseman#The_largest_stone_ever_moved_b y_man.3F
its cutting and movement is entirely documented and proves as this is the largest stone ever moved that aliens are not required for any other megalith which is smaller, which is ALL of them
;)

Don't you get tired of hearing "They didn't have the WHEEL!" They must have never played in a sandbox or been to a beach. I do love picturing a wooden wagon that would be up to carrying a ten-ton stone in the sand. Wooden bed, wooden wheels, wooden axles.

[Cainkane1]

I love those shows on DISC Channel, TLC, or HIST Channel. They have been repeating one lately where they pose that the Pyramids were really built so that they could cover up all the knowledge of the universe, possibly given to us by aliens, under tons and tons of rock.

As silly as it sounds, doesn't that make more sense in coming up with such a convaluted way of entombing a Pharaoh, to guard against grave robbers or something? If that is what they wanted, then there should not have been passageways, and simply encased them in such a way that it be impossible to dig under the pyramids to loot the burial chamber, or to remove the stones to get to them.

As silly as the "end of days" story seems, - one has to wonder when it says in the Bible's Book of Daniel, that 'knowledge is to be locked up until the end of days". It really does say that. Today, we have modern marvels, becoming exponentially marvellous. We have the emergence of the book, The Bible Code. We may be on the doorstep of getting to the bottom of what secrets the pyramids are really guarding?

Have you seen also on that same airing, how there are these like 800 ton carved rocks that have like perfect lazer-sharp grooves in them (I mean these things are perfect...perfect straight and width and depth, so they appear on camera, with sharp edges), intended to act as like locking keyway joints? Who stood up these stones? For what reason?, other than to blow the minds off us present Earthlings?, becasue they knew that we wod not be able to figure it out. Who cut them grooves? How? With what? Is it preposterous to believe aliens came here and assisted us with anti-gravity machines or something? Why else were all these people around the world, erecting huge rock formations?

Today, I was vigorously shaking a can of spray paint, trying to get the mixing ball inside to sound-off - and it pooped me out! You really believe human beings were made to work every day for years and years on end, tugging rocks up some ramp or something, without falling over dead from exhaustion in the hot equatorial sun?

What are your thoughts on this.
Aliens would have left evidence of artificial light and other artifacts like batteries. Also there is no library in any of the the great pyramids. I wish to heck we could dig up a tomb filled with the knowledge filled with copies of books from the library at Alexandria.

[GeeMack]

I love those shows on DISC Channel, TLC, or HIST Channel. They have been repeating one lately where they pose that the Pyramids were really built so that they could cover up all the knowledge of the universe, possibly given to us by aliens, under tons and tons of rock.

As silly as it sounds, doesn't that make more sense in coming up with such a convaluted way of entombing a Pharaoh, to guard against grave robbers or something?


No.

[Marduk]

Don't you get tired of hearing "They didn't have the WHEEL!" They must have never played in a sandbox or been to a beach. I do love picturing a wooden wagon that would be up to carrying a ten-ton stone in the sand. Wooden bed, wooden wheels, wooden axles.

I get more tired of hearing that "no one knows the age of the pyramid" when in fact the mortar holding it together has been carbon dated and the name of the phraoah Khufu is found written inside.
:D
the Egyptians did have wheels though, they just didn't use them for transporting stone blocks, they used sledges and boats for that.

[paiute]

The pyramids were built to sharpen the razor blades of the gods.

[Gawdzilla]

I get more tired of hearing that "no one knows the age of the pyramid" when in fact the mortar holding it together has been carbon dated and the name of the phraoah Khufu is found written inside.
:D
the Egyptians did have wheels though, they just didn't use them for transporting stone blocks, they used sledges and boats for that.

They had these things call "chariots", if Mr. von Daniken is to be believed. :p

Of course, the "no wheels" things come from the Incas and Aztecs, et al. But the same basic objections apply there. Multi-ton rocks aren't moved by Conestoga wagons any more than the shuttle is moved in a minivan.

[ZirconBlue]

Only aliens had string in those days. Why would Egyptians have string? For what purpose? Surely not to cut grooves, since the aliens did that for them.

Then the string-making knowledge was then hidden deep in the pyramids.


Finally: a clear an concise explanation for string theory.

[Gawdzilla]

Finally: a clear an concise explanation for string theory.

I knew a "cat's cradle" had more than three dimensions. :mad:

[One Skunk Todd]

Only aliens had string in those days. Why would Egyptians have string? For what purpose? Surely not to cut grooves, since the aliens did that for them.

Then the string-making knowledge was then hidden deep in the pyramids.

So THAT'S what string theory is all about. It's much easier to understand when you explain it that way. :)

ETA: Bah! Remind to refresh when I get to the bottom of the page but BEFORE I post. :)

[Akhenaten]

This thread is silly

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/3WiseMen01.gif




You should see the Aussie dinosaur thread!

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/3WiseMen01.gif




The feral camel one is a bit out there too

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/3WiseMen01.gif

[HansMustermann]

Geez. The ancients didn't know about gravity, or how to wash themselves?
I'd better watch more of this Discovery Channel thing. Sounds amazing.

Considering that the same Egyptians considered crocodile feces to be a good spermicide... well, yes, I'd say that some of their ideas of hygiene were a bit off the mark. I don't think many modern girl would even consider shoving that in there, and I think it would be a turnoff for most guys too.

Actually, the even scarier thing is that it does seem to be somewhat spermicidal. Considering that the only way to know in an age before microscopes was, basically, to see if it prevents a pregnancy... I have this morbid curiosity as to what other kinds of crap did they try shoving inside themselves, as part of discovering which kind works best.

[theprestige]

Anyway, what is the problem with the pyramids as a prestige project for the Egyptians?
No problem at all!

[I Ratant]

Aliens would have left evidence of artificial light and other artifacts like batteries. Also there is no library in any of the the great pyramids. I wish to heck we could dig up a tomb filled with the knowledge filled with copies of books from the library at Alexandria.
.
No, no, no.
I fingered all this out when contemplating the every 3600 year visits to Earth by the occupants of Nibaru.
They had no view of the water engulfed Earth from their hot-house enclouded planet, so they made their spaceships and other stuff out of water soluble material, sadly. Once here, their ships dissolved, and they were stuck here, where they had to mate with the inhabitants.
It's "in the Book"!

[ZirconBlue]

So THAT'S what string theory is all about. It's much easier to understand when you explain it that way. :)

ETA: Bah! Remind to refresh when I get to the bottom of the page but BEFORE I post. :)


:p

As soon as I saw that post, I did a refresh followed by a CTRL-F find for "string theory". Then I typed up my reply and hit submit as fast as I could. I figured I could iron out the wording in an edit, as long as I got to the string theory joke first. :D

Another tool to use is the "preview post" button. That will not only let you double check your formatting, etc., but also allow you to scroll down and see if any additional posts have been made while you were composing your post.

Considering that the same Egyptians considered crocodile feces to be a good spermicide... <snip>

... I have this morbid curiosity as to what other kinds of crap did they try shoving inside themselves, as part of discovering which kind works best.

Pun intended?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

As silly as it sounds, doesn't that make more sense in coming up with such a convaluted way of entombing a Pharaoh, to guard against grave robbers or something?

No.


Mods, you may close this thread.

[Marduk]

I have this morbid curiosity as to what other kinds of crap did they try shoving inside themselves, as part of discovering which kind works best.

Contraception was also performed by the insertion of crocodile oil, gum acacia or honey consperge and natron into the vagina. Gum acacia when dissolved produces lactic acid, a very effective known spermicidal. The Ebers papyrus says

“To cause a woman to stop being pregnant, be it one, two or three years: part of acacia, colocynth, dates, finely ground in a hin of honey, fibers are moistened therewith, introduced into her vagina”.

god knows where they found out about Coelacanths though,
:D

[Pure Argent]

So is Iamme going to show up again?

[BTMO]

Today, I was vigorously shaking a can of spray paint, trying to get the mixing ball inside to sound-off - and it pooped me out! You really believe human beings were made to work every day for years and years on end, tugging rocks up some ramp or something, without falling over dead from exhaustion in the hot equatorial sun?

What are your thoughts on this.

Others have answered your other points far better than I can, but I would like to comment on this....

Get more exercise. Really.

Yes, humans CAN work all day under the blazing sun - but not when their "training" for such an event is sitting in front of a computer all day, driving the SUV to the mall for frozen slushies when they get hot, or pressing a button to cook their food (to say nothing of collecting their food!).

Humans in the west today, by and large, have *very* soft lives...

Don't believe me? Today in the west, obesity is a health issue that is suffered by people living in poverty.

Historically, and in other parts of the world, starving to death was / is associated with poverty.

[Gawdzilla]

So is Iamme going to show up again?

I am me? Who else would he be?

[Iamme]

No, I haven't seen this. Can you give pictures? (For reference, see post #2)

No. And they are somewhere else in the world. Can't remember where. The host of the show said these babies make the Pyramids look like child's play. Mayvbe Googling 800-ton stones?








We have. Experiments have been done - I saw another documentary where a team of men showed that it was possible to move the stone blocks necessary to build the pyramids, and to stack them as the Egyptian slaves did, given only a few simple items (mainly rope). And remember, the Egyptians had an unlimited supply of slave labor.

Really? Anything on YouTube, showing this being done?

[Gawdzilla]

(For reference, see post #2)

No. And they are somewhere else in the world. Can't remember where. The host of the show said these babies make the Pyramids look like child's play. Mayvbe Googling 800-ton stones?










Really? Anything on YouTube, showing this being done?

The stones you are referring to were a set of three that were excavated in the Middle East before the Romans took over the area. That should help you find them. They've also been discussed elsewhere on this forum, so a search might be helpful.

While you're at it, consider Cleopatra's Needle, and how the Egyptians would have moved it.

[Iamme]

Nothing new about monumental architecture. The reasons are well known. Nothing new about technology for measuring, cutting, moving and lifting stones either. But if I had to stick my fingers in my ears on the rare occassion that one of those crap TV channels you refer to shows a decent show about the evidence-based suppositions and conclusions about how the pyramids were built, I would rather go with Ra/Horus/Isis-did-it rather than aliens-did-it.

Then why aren't there shows on tv showing this end of it? Wouldn't people be as interested to watch if the show was advertised in advacne that they have the answer now to how all these mysteries were done? Come on, there'd be millions of viewers. Is it because there really is no such evidence out there(contrary to your claim) that can show how it was done? That you listen to snippets from Michael Shermer?, and then that settles the argument, in your mind?





If you had to shake a paint can all day, every day in order to get a scrap of food, you'd do it just fine.

Or die of a heart attack.

[Pure Argent]

Really? Anything on YouTube, showing this being done?

Can't find the actual footage I saw just yet. Still looking. I'll get back to you. In the meantime, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0)'s another video that illustrates that it's a lot easier to move large objects than you'd expect.

[fuelair]

Actually, it is for burial. Every 33 years the Lord High Righteous leader and head Priest of the Illuminati (that is the secret message on the US dollar bill) is sactificed and His body entombed in a secret ceremony (attended by the 33rd level members of the organization only). At that point, the new Illuminatus is chosen by lot from among the attendees and spends a year of study and contemplation while what will be his duties in the 32 years remaining to him are tasked among the remaining 33rd levels for that year-long period of his Illuminataship. For learning this you life may be forfeit - take care.

Always beware what you seek- receiving it may not bring what you hoped or thought it would.

Beware the light - it is of Lucifer.

[Gawdzilla]

Iamme, the fact that 800 ton stones were quarried shows that they planned to move them. And they would have had to show that they had a plan before getting the go-ahead to quarry them. Regarding the ones I think you're talking about, the show I saw described how they might have done it, and there was not unearthly about that system.

[Iamme]

While you're at it, consider Cleopatra's Needle, and how the Egyptians would have moved it.

That is just one object. That is not mentally taxing at all considering manpower and even archaic boom and winch systems. Making literally a mountain out of multi-ton rocks, perfectly, is something else. 2 million stones made and set in place every 9 seconds? And those 800 ton stones that look like a laser carved perfect kerf cuts through them. Mindblowing.

[Pure Argent]

That is just one object. That is not mentally taxing at all considering manpower and even archaic boom and winch systems. Making literally a mountain out of multi-ton rocks, perfectly, is something else.

Why? They had more manpower than they knew what to do with.

2 million stones made and set in place every 9 seconds?

Where the heck did you get "every nine seconds"?

And those 800 ton stones that look like a laser carved perfect kerf cuts through them. Mindblowing.

That's been addressed already.

[Iamme]

Iamme, the fact that 800 ton stones were quarried shows that they planned to move them. And they would have had to show that they had a plan before getting the go-ahead to quarry them. Regarding the ones I think you're talking about, the show I saw described how they might have done it, and there was not unearthly about that system.

Says who???? Not if aliens were in charge! Seriously. With the universe almost 16 billion years old, and Earth a mere 4.5, that means with the universe teaming with stars, that number like sands on our Earth, it is not preposterous to presume advanced civilizations came here. Maybe they were the ones that even stocked our Earth with kife. Then came back to see how it was coming. And then did stuff so they could laugh at what furure generations would think when they saw these great things. I really think they learned anti-gravity and that knowledge got lost. Jesus may have even knew it because he walked on water. Sons of God, angels, aliens - same thing.

[Iamme]

Why? They had more manpower than they knew what to do with.

So their economy flourished with everyone building a pyramid?



Where the heck did you get "every nine seconds"?

The show said so. Based on the 22 years claimed by experts that it took to build the great Pyramid. Even If it took 40 years, 18 seconds. Henry Ford would have been proud, of these time rates.

[Sherman Bay]

Then why aren't there shows on tv showing this end of it? Wouldn't people be as interested to watch if the show was advertised in advacne that they have the answer now to how all these mysteries were done? Come on, there'd be millions of viewers. And there have been, both shows and viewers. PBS NOVA had four shows featuring Roger Hopkins, (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/egypt/team/hopkins.html) stonemason, who built a mini-pyramid using techniques likely to have been used by the Egyptians as well as erecting an large obelisk. To a stonemason, these feats are not mysterious.

I haven't found any video of the pyramid project online yet, but I assure you PBS produced it over 10 years ago.

[Toke]

My dad find large stones quite decorative in the garden, I have some experience as a kid in moving large stones with lever smaller stones and a bucket of pebbles.

The pyramids clearly showed the neighbours (Minoans ?) who were the biggest empire around. :)

[Sherman Bay]

Still can't find the video online, but here's the original show info: (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/listseason/19.html#1915)This Old Pyramid

In a 90-minute special presentation, NOVA reveals the ancient secrets of how the pyramids were built by actually building one. A noted Egyptologist, Mark Lehner, and a professional stonemason, Roger Hopkins (This Old House), join forces in the shadow of the Great Pyramid of Giza to put clever and sometimes bizarre pyramid construction theories to the test.

Original broadcast date: 11/04/92
Topic: technology/engineering

[Gawdzilla]

That is just one object. That is not mentally taxing at all considering manpower and even archaic boom and winch systems. Making literally a mountain out of multi-ton rocks, perfectly, is something else. 2 million stones made and set in place every 9 seconds? And those 800 ton stones that look like a laser carved perfect kerf cuts through them. Mindblowing.

The pyramids are just piles of rocks. Not very good engineering and nothing miraculous. Moving them is just a matter of applying force. 200 men applying 100 foot/pounds of force each equals how much energy?

And for the 800 tonners, I'm going to need some serious sources before I'm buying "laser carved perfect". Some narrator says they're "perfect" doesn't carry much weight with me.

[Iamme]

The reason for the passageways was that the pyramids were built while the king was alive, and when he died, the funerary contingent needed to be able to get the guy's body from the outside of the pyramid to the inside of the pyramid.

You got a point there worth considering.

Yes, I guess if the King died and then they decided to build the Pyramid ontop of him, the dead King would have turned into ashes by then. But if they were that smart to be able to build these great pieces of work, you'd think they would have thought of some way of making the tomb in accessible. (I.e., the tv show on that one deep shaft that was booby trapped, so that if people went down in it, it caused a flood gate to open, and the entire shaft filled with water forever. Did any of you see that show?) Unless they truly truly believed that (according to another persons post), that it would have been unconscienable for anyone to loot the tomb. They then also must have thought there was no chance that a mighty army could ever over take them? It is sort of like they were smart enough to make this heavy and sophisticated chain without pondering how the weak link might affect it.



There is also a marked and (almost) complete absence of writing of any kind inside the Great Pyramid, which makes one wonder just how any kind of "knowledge" was supposed to be stored there.

If the intent was to store the knowledge known about the Universe, then they would have buried it deep under the stones, virtually inaccessible by tunnel, or from the top or sides.

[Toke]

No problem at all!

You are that old? :D

[Toke]

If the intent was to store the knowledge known about the Universe, then they would have buried it deep under the stones, virtually inaccessible by tunnel, or from the top or sides.

Why not burn it or dump it in the ocean?

[Toke]

Have you been playing too much call of cthulhu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu) ?

That could explain the need to bury something really deep.

[Rodney]

And there have been, both shows and viewers. PBS NOVA had four shows featuring Roger Hopkins, (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/egypt/team/hopkins.html) stonemason, who built a mini-pyramid using techniques likely to have been used by the Egyptians as well as erecting an large obelisk. To a stonemason, these feats are not mysterious.

I haven't found any video of the pyramid project online yet, but I assure you PBS produced it over 10 years ago.
And I can assure you that it was as phony as a three-dollar bill. As Margaret Morris notes:

"The Public Broadcasting System (PBS) science series 'NOVA' later attempted and filmed the construction of a much smaller pyramid. The NOVA program is titled This Old Pyramid, and it first aired as a 90-minute special over PBS stations on November 4, 1992. NOVA's goal was to address unresolved problems of constructing the Great Pyramid. NOVA incorporated fewer than 200 one- and two-ton blocks into an unfinished 18-foot high mini-pyramid.

"The NOVA film repeatedly states that their workers used only ancient means to build the mini-pyramid, and the film implies this throughout. But only three or four one-ton stones, needed for the on-camera demonstration, were raised up the mini-ramp manually. The rest were hauled and placed with a front-end loader, a construction vehicle with a hydraulically operated scoop in front!"

This Old Pyramid's producer Michael Barnes acknowledged that "stonemason Roger Hopkins used a modern loader to help build the pyramid . . . The Nature of Things host David Suzuki, in a letter to me dated November 23, 1993, stated: 'I was very surprised to learn from you of the extensive use of machines in the making of the pyramid...it is distressing to realize that the thrust of the show conveyed a totally false impression'."

See http://www.margaretmorrisbooks.com/xcerpt01.html

[Pure Argent]

Says who???? Not if aliens were in charge! Seriously. With the universe almost 16 billion years old, and Earth a mere 4.5, that means with the universe teaming with stars, that number like sands on our Earth, it is not preposterous to presume advanced civilizations came here.

Yes, it is. Given the time necessary for planets to form, then to become capable of supporting life, then to evolve intelligent life-forms, then for them to become capable of space travel, etc., plus the possibility that it may be entirely impossible to exceed light speed, plus the incredible rarity of life-supporting planets, plus the mind-boggling size of space, makes the odds astronomical.

Maybe they were the ones that even stocked our Earth with kife. Then came back to see how it was coming. And then did stuff so they could laugh at what furure generations would think when they saw these great things. I really think they learned anti-gravity and that knowledge got lost. Jesus may have even knew it because he walked on water. Sons of God, angels, aliens - same thing.

Evidence?

So their economy flourished with everyone building a pyramid?

Their economy flourished with slaves building pyramids, yes.

The show said so. Based on the 22 years claimed by experts that it took to build the great Pyramid. Even If it took 40 years, 18 seconds. Henry Ford would have been proud, of these time rates.

How many blocks were in this particular construction?

You got a point there worth considering.

Yes, I guess if the King died and then they decided to build the Pyramid ontop of him, the dead King would have turned into ashes by then. But if they were that smart to be able to build these great pieces of work, you'd think they would have thought of some way of making the tomb in accessible. (I.e., the tv show on that one deep shaft that was booby trapped, so that if people went down in it, it caused a flood gate to open, and the entire shaft filled with water forever. Did any of you see that show?) Unless they truly truly believed that (according to another persons post), that it would have been unconscienable for anyone to loot the tomb.

Well, they would, as the pharaoh is the living incarnation of a god. No one would dare draw the wrath of the gods.

They then also must have thought there was no chance that a mighty army could ever over take them? It is sort of like they were smart enough to make this heavy and sophisticated chain without pondering how the weak link might affect it.

Does any empire ever plan for its defeat?

If the intent was to store the knowledge known about the Universe, then they would have buried it deep under the stones, virtually inaccessible by tunnel, or from the top or sides.

But you have not shown that this was their intent.

[Gawdzilla]

Iamme, they averaged a block every 18 seconds. Impressive if that's one gang. If it's 500 gangs it's not even remarkable.

[Marduk]

If the intent was to store the knowledge known about the Universe, then they would have buried it deep under the stones, virtually inaccessible by tunnel, or from the top or sides.

riiiight, so youre saying that the secrets of the universe are in the pyramid, but no ones found them yet. Are you aware that the Great Pyramid was built around 2550bce by a culture that believed the world existed in a bubble of air amidst a universe which consisted of water, and that they believed that rain fell through the gaps. If theyre hiding secrets from their level of knowledge we won't be learning anything new

really, youve watched one TV pseudo documentary and youre asking ridiculous questions, best you go read some real books on the subject before you go slagging off the Egyptians. Its often been said that this view of "Aliens" or "Atlanteans" is racist, because it takes away from the fact that the Ancient Egyptians built the pyramids using bronze age technology on their own. Its been proven over and over that they did it, this means that anyone saying otherwise has lied to you or is ignorant of the facts

and as you've ignored all the posts in this thread that shows the engineering required is well within the Egyptians capability, it shows that youre not interested in the truth either, doesn't it ?
:rolleyes:

[sackett]

...What are your thoughts on this [?].

I think that there's little difference between bat **** ignorant and bat **** crazy.

[hgc]

Yes, I guess if the King died and then they decided to build the Pyramid ontop of him, the dead King would have turned into ashes by then.


Too funny. You've seriously never heard of mummification? If you're interested in ancient Egypt, why don't you acquaint yourself with some FACTS about it, instead of insane BS? It would be ever so much more interesting.

[Simon39759]

Have you seen also on that same airing, how there are these like 800 ton carved rocks that have like perfect lazer-sharp grooves in them

800 tons is not the weight of the average stone, though.
The biggest stones in the Great pyramid weight between 20 to 80 tons. 800, in fact is the total weight of stone they would install in a day (based on the total weight of the pyramid and the duration of the building).

It is still quite considerable, of course but nothing impossible. If you imagine a 100 teams composed of a 10 mean each, each time would "only" need to bring a 8 tone stone in a day (in reality, the constructions project involved many times that number).
And, if you think a 10 man team can't move a 8 ton object, here is a video Dave Gauder pulling, by himself, a 78 ton plane (the circumstances are quite different of course, but still, it is a cool video): here (http://www.diagonal-view.com/v/203/man-pulls-concorde.html).

[Wildy]

Their economy flourished with slaves building pyramids, yes.

You mention slaves building the pyramids, but they weren't slaves.

[Marduk]

800 tons is not the weight of the average stone, though.
The biggest stones in the Great pyramid weight between 20 to 80 tons. 800, in fact is the total weight of stone they would install in a day (based on the total weight of the pyramid and the duration of the building).

It is still quite considerable, of course but nothing impossible. If you imagine a 100 teams composed of a 10 mean each, each time would "only" need to bring a 8 tone stone in a day (in reality, the constructions project involved many times that number).
And, if you think a 10 man team can't move a 8 ton object, here is a video Dave Gauder pulling, by himself, a 78 ton plane (the circumstances are quite different of course, but still, it is a cool video): here (http://www.diagonal-view.com/v/203/man-pulls-concorde.html).

whats your source on those figures ?
the average weight of a pyramid block was 2.5 tons
the heaviest blocks in the pyarmid are supports above the kings chamber and they weigh around 60 tons
latest estimates (by Zahi) put the number of blocks at around 750,000, not as is widely believed 2 million. The two million number is derived from the dimensions of the pyramid divided by the dimensions of an average sized block, since then they have discovered that cavities in the pyramid are filled with rubble and sand.

[HansMustermann]

Pun intended?

No, I actually meant crap as in feces. To know that crocodile dung is better than, say, cow dung or camel dung, I'm guessing they had to test all and see which works best.

[Marduk]

No, I actually meant crap as in feces. To know that crocodile dung is better than, say, cow dung or camel dung, I'm guessing they had to test all and see which works best.

Bat guano surely, the burns from the high nitrate content would ensure no copulation at all
:D

[Gawdzilla]

No, I actually meant crap as in feces. To know that crocodile dung is better than, say, cow dung or camel dung, I'm guessing they had to test all and see which works best.

The crocodile was holy, apparently one of the pharoahs was eaten by a Nile croc, at least according to his post-mortem PR.

[Pure Argent]

You mention slaves building the pyramids, but they weren't slaves.

Paid workers, then? Still. Kept the economy moving.

[Gawdzilla]

Paid workers, then? Still. Kept the economy moving.

According to what I've seen, they were fed, but not paid. They were paying their taxes by working in the off season for the pharaoh. The entire country would be subject to that tax, so the potential labor pool would have surrounded the pyramid shoulder-to-shoulder for (SWAG) a good half mile in all directions. The total energy that number of people could supply would seem to be adequate to moving some rocks.

[Akhenaten]

Paid workers, then? Still. Kept the economy moving.






According to what I've seen, they were fed, but not paid. They were paying their taxes by working in the off season for the pharaoh. The entire country would be subject to that tax, so the potential labor pool would have surrounded the pyramid shoulder-to-shoulder for (SWAG) a good half mile in all directions. The total energy that number of people could supply would seem to be adequate to moving some rocks.





A bit of both, actually.


The workers may be sub-divided into a permanent workforce of some 5,000 salaried employees who lived, together with their families and dependents, in a well-established pyramid village. There would also have been up to 20,000 temporary workers who arrived to work three- or four-month shifts, and who lived in a less sophisticated camp established alongside the pyramid village.





linkh (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml)


At Giza the workforce was divided into crews of approximately 2,000 and then sub-divided into named gangs of 1,000: graffiti show that the builders of the third Giza pyramid named themselves the 'Friends of Menkaure' and the 'Drunkards of Menkaure'. These gangs were divided into phyles of roughly 200. Finally the phyles were split into divisions of maybe 20 workers, who were allocated their own specific task and their own project leader. Thus 20,000 could be separated into efficient, easily monitored, units and a seemingly impossible project, the raising of a huge pyramid, became an achievable ambition.



my bolding


Not very slavey-sounding.

[HansMustermann]

According to what I've seen, they were fed, but not paid. They were paying their taxes by working in the off season for the pharaoh. The entire country would be subject to that tax, so the potential labor pool would have surrounded the pyramid shoulder-to-shoulder for (SWAG) a good half mile in all directions. The total energy that number of people could supply would seem to be adequate to moving some rocks.

The "fed but not paid" distinction didn't actually exist, since food _was_ the currency of the land. Currency was a very late invention (compared to the timeframe of Ancient Egypt history), and even later to be adopted in Egypt. Even after becoming aware that Greek merchants and mercenaries want gold coins for some reason, Egypt just started minting gold coins by the ton for external trade, but internally they continued to just use their crops as coin for a long time.

So really there was no fundamental difference between getting a basket of food and getting paid. If nothing else, every kilo of the Pharaoh's food that you ate, would be a kilo of your own grain that you could use for something else.

[GreyICE]

So their economy flourished with everyone building a pyramid?

Admittedly the stock brokers weren't happy, but the Egyptians in those days fed investment bankers to crocodiles.

Which really, when you think about it, is just one more way they're better than us.

[I Ratant]

Admittedly the stock brokers weren't happy, but the Egyptians in those days fed investment bankers to crocodiles.

Which really, when you think about it, is just one more way they're better than us.
.
Sometimes abandoning the old ways was a blunder!

[big-E]

<snip>... you'd think they would have thought of some way of making the tomb in accessible. (I.e., the tv show on that one deep shaft that was booby trapped, so that if people went down in it, it caused a flood gate to open, and the entire shaft filled with water forever. Did any of you see that show?)

Could be wrong but I'm guessing this is referring to the infamous Oak Island "Money Pit"... one of the finest examples of a con trick and people wanting to believe that's ever been seen...

Might need splitting into another thread but the the so-called shaft and flood gate was not real (nor is the treasure or virtually anything else claimed by those who believe it's down there somewhere)

[Simon39759]

whats your source on those figures ?
the average weight of a pyramid block was 2.5 tons
the heaviest blocks in the pyarmid are supports above the kings chamber and they weigh around 60 tons
latest estimates (by Zahi) put the number of blocks at around 750,000, not as is widely believed 2 million. The two million number is derived from the dimensions of the pyramid divided by the dimensions of an average sized block, since then they have discovered that cavities in the pyramid are filled with rubble and sand.

Yes; these figures are consistent with the ones I gave for the biggest blocks.
I did not have a firm figure for the size of an average block and went a bit conservative.

2.5 tons handled by a team of 20 means that every man has to track roughly 125 kg. That's not a very difficult feat (people, normal people, not body-builders, can lift that weight, I mean, even I could pull that off.

With a population of 20.000 unqualified workers, one could imagine about a thousand such teams working at the peak season.

If the pyramids comprise 750.000 blocks; that means that each team would have 750 blocks to take care off.
Let say 3 to 4 months of labour per season (100 days, is quite conservative) multiplied by the 22 seasons we know the building went for, that's 100*22 = 2.200 worked days.

In other word, each team would have almost three days per stone.

Also, I calculated that a stone would have to be set in place every roughly two minutes in average. Impressive to be sure, but still a far cry from the 18 seconds given.
(And that is given the hypothesis that the actual construction only takes place over the 100 days I delimited, I pretty much left the most talented permanent artisans out of the equation).


Also, remember that the three to four month working season did not come from nowhere.
In the ancient (and not so ancient) Egyptian times there was the season of innundation (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nile.htm) during which the fields would be flooded and working would be impossible in the field.
So, the disturbances occasioned by taking away the 20,000 labourers (out of an estimated population of 5 to 10 millions people) were relatively minimal.


There is little mysteries behind the construction of the pyramids, we have a reasonable idea of how it would be possible. A wonderful feat of engineering and organization and a tribute to the human mind, definitively, but nothing that requires the need for aliens. Let's try and not sell our own species short.

[Undesired Walrus]

Have you seen also on that same airing, how there are these like 800 ton carved rocks that have like perfect lazer-sharp grooves in them (I mean these things are perfect...perfect straight and width and depth, so they appear on camera, with sharp edges), intended to act as like locking keyway joints? Who stood up these stones?

Ancient Egyptians were smart.

[Lucian]

linkh (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml)


Egyptian spelling?

[Marduk]

Egyptian spelling?

Egyptian Dslxy

[Gawdzilla]

One more thing to consider. The guys that pulled the stones to the pyramid weren't necessarily the ones that pulled them UP the pyramid, and those guys weren't necessarily the ones that put them into place. I would have teams of specialized people, ones that knew their special job well. The best ones of each team would be kept through the off-season for the next round of work, probably doing other jobs to keep busy.

Also, we know Egyptians used horses to put their chariots. Would it not be possible for them to have used elephants to pull the stones. It could have been a "state secret", and not have been allowed to be described anywhere on pain of death.

[HansMustermann]

I doubt that anyone is that good at keeping secrets for thousands of years.

[Toke]

I doubt that anyone is that good at keeping secrets for thousands of years.

So you have not read any of Dan Brown's historical novels?

[I Ratant]

So you have not read any of Dan Brown's historical novels?
.
???
Novels are fabrications of the author's imagination.
The "real world" in the novel need not and most often doesn't reflect any reality, just what is needed to keep the plot alive.
Finding "truth" in any novel is an exercise in self deception and gullibility.

[Toke]

What!!!!!???

Are you saying Dan Brown got it wrong!!!
But... there are examples of historical conspiracies over millenniums.

I am so disappointed:D.

[Gawdzilla]

I doubt that anyone is that good at keeping secrets for thousands of years.

If they can't read or write, they can't do more than oral history. And the priests have a vested interest in making it look "miraculous", they shill the sheeple that way. (Still speculating, of course.)

[Pure Argent]

.
???
Novels are fabrications of the author's imagination.
The "real world" in the novel need not and most often doesn't reflect any reality, just what is needed to keep the plot alive.
Finding "truth" in any novel is an exercise in self deception and gullibility.

Uh. It was a joke. Dan Brown wrote The Da Vinci Code.

[HansMustermann]

1. Egypt had a brisk trade with Mesopotamia since predynastic times, for a start, and those guys _could_ read and write.

2. The last of the major Egyptian pyramids were built at Lisht, El-Lahun and Hawara in Middle Kingdom times. The Hyskos invasion happened within a little over a century of the last major one, and that pretty much marked the end of any (incomplete) isolation Egypt might have enjoyed. It's hard to believe that among all the slaves and documents taken by the Hyskos, and among all those who started trading with the new horse drawn wagons across the desert, everyone would have forgot something like that.

3. Since you mention horse-drawn charriots, the Hyskos introduced those (and are a major reason why they just rolled over the obsolete Egyptian army), but their reign would also end the age of the gigantic pyramids. Their harnesses -- very poor by modern standards, as they basically choked the horse -- would come simply too late to play a role in the building of the great pyramids.

4. And at that, we know that at the very least the Egyptians didn't use elephants against the Hyskos, which would have probably equalized the balance of power a bit. Now that's not a very conclusive point, though, since using elephants for war and using elephants for pulling loads aren't the same problem.

5. Even in India using the elephants for pulling loads came later, and for warfare _much_ later, and by all evidence the Indians invented both. And it spread towards Europe and Africa through the Persians. Even India wouldn't have had either at the time the first great pyramids were built, and I doubt that Egypt would have secretly beat them to it.

[bruto]

I have no opinion on the subject at hand, but just wanted to remark, Hey there Iamme. Where the hell have you been?

[Panhead56]

... Why else were all these people around the world, erecting huge rock formations? ....



Why do people build 800+ meter skyscrapers?
Why do people buy 1000.000$ cars or 100.000.000$ yachts?

It's nice to see that people haven't changed that much in the last 4000 years. :)

[I Ratant]

Uh. It was a joke. Dan Brown wrote The Da Vinci Code.
.
Among others in that vein...
http://www.danbrown.com/#/home

[Akhenaten]

Egyptian spelling?





Of khourse!


One more thing to consider. The guys that pulled the stones to the pyramid weren't necessarily the ones that pulled them UP the pyramid, and those guys weren't necessarily the ones that put them into place. I would have teams of specialized people, ones that knew their special job well. The best ones of each team would be kept through the off-season for the next round of work, probably doing other jobs to keep busy.





Presactly


Also, we know Egyptians used horses to put their chariots. Would it not be possible for them to have used elephants to pull the stones. It could have been a "state secret", and not have been allowed to be described anywhere on pain of death.





The Great Pyramid was completed around 2540 BCE and horses were introduced during the Second Intermediate Period (about 1700-1550 BCE).

I've never heard of elephants in Ancient Egypt, but I'd have to doubt it.

The aforementioned horses mainly came from Kush, and didn't arrive until about the 15th or 16th dynasty. Since elephants come from even further away, I'd presume that it took even longer to round a few of those big boys up.

Pity, because it would have scared the beejeezus out of those Hyksos scoundrels.


Waenre

[Gawdzilla]

I did say I was speculating, guys.

[HansMustermann]

And nobody nailed you to a cross for it ;) We just debated that speculation, nothing more.

[Akhenaten]

No drama mate!

Speculations are cool, and lead to bits of trivia being revealed and to more discussion.

All good.


Ankh udja seneb,

Dave


:) ETA: Hans is quicker than me!

[HansMustermann]

I've never heard of elephants in Ancient Egypt, but I'd have to doubt it.

Well, at least the Ptolemaic dynasty seem to have used a few in battles, though that's of course _far_ too late for the pyramids.

[Akhenaten]

Aha! I had indeed forgotten about the Ptolemies.

Thank you.

[dudalb]

Aha! I had indeed forgotten about the Ptolemies.

Thank you.

Hell, they were not really Egyptians anyway.

BTW, this thread reminds me I have to get reservations to get tickets for the King Tut exhibit when my wife and I got to San Francisco in a couple of weeks.....

[Gawdzilla]

Hell, they were not really Egyptians anyway.

BTW, this thread reminds me I have to get reservations to get tickets for the King Tut exhibit when my wife and I got to San Francisco in a couple of weeks.....

Stop by the National Archives in San Bruno and tell them to stop making all that stuff up! :mad:

[shadron]

According to what I've seen, they were fed, but not paid. They were paying their taxes by working in the off season for the pharaoh. The entire country would be subject to that tax, so the potential labor pool would have surrounded the pyramid shoulder-to-shoulder for (SWAG) a good half mile in all directions. The total energy that number of people could supply would seem to be adequate to moving some rocks.

Of course they weren't paid; coinage was 2000 years in their future. A man's keep was his pay. At some times of the years that was tilling a field, at other times it was hauling stones. The workers were obviously fed, and presumably other amenities were applied as required to keep them pulling.

[Akhenaten]

Of course they weren't paid; coinage was 2000 years in their future. A man's keep was his pay. At some times of the years that was tilling a field, at other times it was hauling stones. The workers were obviously fed, and presumably other amenities were applied as required to keep them pulling.


my bolding

Such as the ever-popular Playfellah™

Here is one of their 'articles':

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/EgyptianQueen.jpg

Frank Frazetta (http://frankfrazetta.com/ff/index.html)

[Belgian thought]

There are these theories too:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24324 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24324)
http://www.materials.drexel.edu/Pyramids/ (http://www.materials.drexel.edu/Pyramids/)
have they been disproved/accepted?

I found the above whilst trying to search (in vain) for a programme which I saw a couple of years back whereby a physicist calculated the work required in moving, hoisting, and placing (non-cast – see above links) stones to construct the largest of the three pyramids - Giza. The resulting total number of Joules equated to a surprising low figure of both manpower and time required.

I would love to see the figures again, if anyone on the forum knows of them.

[Akhenaten]

There are these theories too:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24324 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24324)
http://www.materials.drexel.edu/Pyramids/ (http://www.materials.drexel.edu/Pyramids/)
have they been disproved/accepted?

I found the above whilst trying to search (in vain) for a programme which I saw a couple of years back whereby a physicist calculated the work required in moving, hoisting, and placing (non-cast – see above links) stones to construct the largest of the three pyramids - Giza. The resulting total number of Joules equated to a surprising low figure of both manpower and time required.

I would love to see the figures again, if anyone on the forum knows of them.





There's some 'concrete' in the Pyramids, used to fill in gaps in the 'perfectly fitted stone blocks'. The blocks themselves are the real thing though, and proponents of the concrete theory are going to have to explain, among other things, where all the stone from the quarries at Aswan and other places went to, if not into the Pyramids.

I think the Romans invented proper concrete, didn't they?

[HansMustermann]

Hell, they were not really Egyptians anyway.

BTW, this thread reminds me I have to get reservations to get tickets for the King Tut exhibit when my wife and I got to San Francisco in a couple of weeks.....

Well, the point was merely "elephants in Ancient Egypt". Whether it was by proper Egyptian pharaos wasn't the issue.

[Wildy]

Also, we know Egyptians used horses to put their chariots. Would it not be possible for them to have used elephants to pull the stones. It could have been a "state secret", and not have been allowed to be described anywhere on pain of death.

Wasn't that from a crappy movie?

[BPScooter]

Last summer I finally read Herodotus "The Histories" from top to bottom, for no reason other than I was supposed to have done that years ago for a class. What I learned was that guys like Herodotus had to travel many miles to even begin to tell these tall tales, and they were all blown away by the monuments of Egypt. But they also had experience of ships, navigation, land-based travel, etc. and I find it hard to imagine that the "ancients" from their point of view were all that dumb or isolated.

[Gawdzilla]

Wasn't that from a crappy movie?

Ah, you're thinking of "10,000". Could be. It's one of my favorite howlers. :D

[Gawdzilla]

Last summer I finally read Herodotus "The Histories" from top to bottom, for no reason other than I was supposed to have done that years ago for a class. What I learned was that guys like Herodotus had to travel many miles to even begin to tell these tall tales, and they were all blown away by the monuments of Egypt. But they also had experience of ships, navigation, land-based travel, etc. and I find it hard to imagine that the "ancients" from their point of view were all that dumb or isolated.

Any chance the stories were "improved" for the public back then? I've never looked into that, my thesis was on WWII (preliminaries, anyway.)

[BPScooter]

Oh, yah, Gawdz. There are so few fragments of Greek writing that each and every thing has been examined by scholars in that area. Just mention Herodotus and Map in certain circles and you'll have Dorians and Scythians and such fighting.

[Gawdzilla]

Oh, yah, Gawdz. There are so few fragments of Greek writing that each and every thing has been examined by scholars in that area. Just mention Herodotus and Map in certain circles and you'll have Dorians and Scythians and such fighting.

Thanks. I have to read those some day. I'm barely back to 1775 right now, so it may be a while.

[I Ratant]

my bolding

Such as the ever-popular Playfellah™

Here is one of their 'articles':

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/EgyptianQueen.jpg

Frank Frazetta (http://frankfrazetta.com/ff/index.html)
.
Yea, brother!
I recall in a previous incarnation thumbing thru the Playfellah™ papyri, but not for the articles... I was illiterate then but then as now, like that pulchritude! :):D

[Gawdzilla]

.
Yea, brother!
I recall in a previous incarnation thumbing thru the Playfellah™ papyri, but not for the articles... I was illiterate then but then as now, like that pulchritude! :):D

Wasn't one pharaoh supposed to have traveled in a boat propelled by 100 virgins? (I wonder where he got the other 28?)

[Akhenaten]

Punt.

[Marduk]

There's some 'concrete' in the Pyramids, used to fill in gaps in the 'perfectly fitted stone blocks'.
Thats Mortar, one of the components of concrete is cement, which the Egyptians didn't have


The blocks themselves are the real thing though, and proponents of the concrete theory are going to have to explain, among other things, where all the stone from the quarries at Aswan and other places went to, if not into the Pyramids.

well the concrete hypothesis required that the stone from the quarries was broken up into powder and then reconstituted on site, this is supposed to be easier. I don't see it

I think the Romans invented proper concrete, didn't they?
yush
;)

[Marduk]

Last summer I finally read Herodotus "The Histories" from top to bottom, for no reason other than I was supposed to have done that years ago for a class. What I learned was that guys like Herodotus had to travel many miles to even begin to tell these tall tales, and they were all blown away by the monuments of Egypt. But they also had experience of ships, navigation, land-based travel, etc. and I find it hard to imagine that the "ancients" from their point of view were all that dumb or isolated.

what I learned is that Herodotus wasn't beyond writing down fiction when he couldn't get the facts, hence his nickname, "father of lies"
:D
you should read the baloney he wrote about Babylon, its quite amusing, he clearly never visited, yet pretended he did

[HansMustermann]

I'm actually not sure that cememnt would have been much of an improvement at that scale of building.

For a start now instead of just cutting the limestone you have to also break it down into lime rubble, suitable for use in kilns. It would also require vast amounts of fuel being hauled _to_ the kilns, approximately half as much coal (as weight) as limestone used. While you could place the kilns next to the quarry, there wasn't enough fuel for the great pyramid in all Egypt, much less near the quarry. So you'd be back to hauling huge loads over huge distances.

Also, I'd like to point out the economic aspect of the fuel needs. While other countries had plenty of trees to use for charcoal, Egypt was basically a strip of agricultural land along the river, surrounded by desert. The few accacia trees they had weren't even enough for their furniture. They actually had to import cedar wood for almost everything else, from charriots to ships to everything.

Importing ludicrious quantities of wood to make that huge a quantity of cement, is simply not economical. Even Egypt wasn't _that_ rich.

Mineral coal wasn't used much anywhere at the time, and in fact it wouldn't be until the late middle ages. I'm not aware of Egypt having coal mines they could use for such kilns, anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I can see how cement would be hugely useful for the Romans later. But in Egypt's case and for the purpose of stacking a lot of rocks in a pyramid, I think it's still cheaper to get a bunch of people to drag the stones as they are.

[Marduk]

I'm starting to wonder if anyone here actually read Davidovitz claims, he didn't propose kilns, he proposed that the stone was broken down in lime pools. Then carried in its liquid state to the construction site and filled into molds.

;)

mind you your mention of the lack of carbon reminds me of another pseudo historic fallacy, that runs
"the mortar of the great pyramid when carbon dated proved orthodox egyptology wrong because the dates were in some cases 200 years older than the proposed construction date."

this was taken as a victory in the alterno history camp, when in fact to anyone who knows anything about carbon dating it is exactly what would be expected. For the carbon in the mortar to have been dated to the exact time of construction would require it be taken from freshly cut trees and not as is much more likley, from any scrap wood laying around from broken furniture and the like. If my house were carbon dated by the age of the wood right now I would suddenly be transported to the mid 60s, and we reuse far less wood than ancient cultures did.

[HansMustermann]

Never read those claims, but it seriously sounds like he should lay off the crack ;)

[HansMustermann]

Actually, now you got me curious. How exactly would they get liquid lime at the time?

Limestone is calcium carbonate, which isn't particularly soluble. Well, it is, but to concentration _far_ too low to just move that water around and let it dry somewhere else.

Calcium oxide, or quicklime, that you could mix with water and just let it solidify, is not very present in nature, precisely because it reacts with water. Even calcium hydroxide, or slaked lime, is mostly present in volcanic stuff, so again it wouldn't be particularly abundant in Egypt.

And basically to get either form from limestone, you're back to kilns.

That or you need very hot water under great pressure, since it sollubility increases non-linearly with both temperature and pressure. And you have to transport it very hot and under pressure, somehow.

Either way, you're back to needing vast amounts of energy and now even far larger total weights to be moved around.

Plus, it would be trivial to check if those rocks were formed out of quicklime, since if they are calcium carbonate, they weren't. Unless those cunning Egyptians somehow also figured out how to pump incredible quantities of carbon dioxide through it. And I mean the kind of quantities that make the 20'th century's CO2 emissions look tame.

Another way is to dissolve it in acid (e.g., HCl), and then basically reduce it with sodium hydroxide or bicarbonate. But that would need tremendous quantities of both to build something the size of the great pyramid, and again, you're worse off than just hauling the limestone blocks.

And Egyptian mortar was actually just clay mixed with sand in early pyramids, and gypsum mixed with sand in later pyramids. It doesn't quite sound to me like they had tons of liquid lime.

But anyway, enough of my own rants and speculations. How _does_ he propose to get liquid limestone? I'm genuinely curious by now.

[Akhenaten]

All this talk about limestone is very interesting.

Can we have a little discussion about the stone that the Pyramids are actually built out of next?

The limestone was just a facing, and it's all been recycled into bits of Cairo.

The Pyramids we see today aren't true limestone, but a sandy variety that is easily matched to that in nearby quarries.

[hgc]

All this talk about limestone is very interesting.

Can we have a little discussion about the stone that the Pyramids are actually built out of next?

The limestone was just a facing, and it's all been recycled into bits of Cairo.

The Pyramids we see today aren't limestone at all, now are they?


It's quite a shame. The pyramids must have looked really cool with the smooth sides.

[Akhenaten]

Absolutely. They were brilliant white and highly polished, and would have been seen for leagues.

The pyramidions were originally gold* plated as well.


ETA: * electrum, actually.

[Marduk]

Actually, now you got me curious. How exactly would they get liquid lime at the time?.
like this
According to his theory, a soft limestone with a high kaolinite content was quarried in the wadi on the south of the Giza plateau. It was then dissolved in large, Nile-fed pools until it became a watery slurry. Lime (found in the ash of ancient cooking fires) and natron (also used by the Egyptians in mummification) was mixed in. The pools were then left to evaporate, leaving behind a moist, clay-like mixture. This wet “concrete” would be carried to the construction site where it would be packed into reusable wooden molds. In the next few days the mixture would undergo a chemical hydration reaction similar to the setting of cement.
Allegedly, his paper itself is full of so many strawmen it barely stands up
stuff like, this is the only method which can produce precision like that present in the pyramid stones, precision like this
http://www.icypole.net/egypt/Close-up-of-Giza-Pyramid.jpg
and other crap like "the egyptians at the time did not have the required technology to move pyramid stones"
yet we have murals of them moving stones and much much larger objects on sledges
to
"the egyptians did not have the tools to do the job"
despite many examples of the tools being on display in the Cairo museum

If I had bought out a paper saying the same thing of course it would have been ignored, but Davidovits is a geopolymer scientist, so apparently that qualifies him as an expert on pyramids too
NOT
:D

[Marduk]

Absolutely. They were brilliant white and highly polished, and would have been seen for leagues.

The pyramidions were originally gold* plated as well.


ETA: * electrum, actually.

I seriously doubt that, they didn't get around to producing electrum until 18th dynasty iirc, it was pliny writing a long time later that made that claim.
Electrum was only available in one civ at that time, so its possible they could have imported it, but theres no evidence of any surviving pyramidion covered with electrum from either archaeology or egyptian textual sources. thats why they usually say "Gold or Electrum", they have proof of the former, none of the latter
;)

[Wildy]

Electrum was only available in one civ at that time, so its possible they could have imported it, but theres no evidence of any surviving pyramidion covered with electrum from either archaeology or egyptian textual sources.

It was the Lydians right? Because IIRC they made coins out of the stuff.

[Akhenaten]

I seriously doubt that, they didn't get around to producing electrum until 18th dynasty iirc, it was pliny writing a long time later that made that claim.
Electrum was only available in one civ at that time, so its possible they could have imported it, but theres no evidence of any surviving pyramidion covered with electrum from either archaeology or egyptian textual sources. thats why they usually say "Gold or Electrum", they have proof of the former, none of the latter
;)







Electrum was used as early as the third millennium BCE, during the Old Kingdom, sometimes as an exterior coating to the pyramidions atop ancient Egyptian Pyramids and obelisks.

Electrum was also used in the making of ancient drinking vessels and coins.

Electrum is mentioned in an expedition sent by Pharaoh Sahure. Sahure was the second king of ancient Egypt's 5th Dynasty. He was a son of Queen Neferhetepes, as shown in scenes from the causeway of Sahure's pyramid complex in Abusir. His father probably was Userkaf. Sahure's consort was queen Neferetnebty.


Absolute Astronomy (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Electrum)

[Akhenaten]

It was the Lydians right? Because IIRC they made coins out of the stuff.





Yes, the first coins in the Western World.

[Marduk]

It was the Lydians right? Because IIRC they made coins out of the stuff.

thats about 2000 years too late,
;)

[Akhenaten]

It was too late for the Lydians alright, but they didn't build the Pyramids.

[Marduk]

Electrum is mentioned in an expedition sent by Pharaoh Sahure. Sahure was the second king of ancient Egypt's 5th Dynasty. He was a son of Queen Neferhetepes, as shown in scenes from the causeway of Sahure's pyramid complex in Abusir. His father probably was Userkaf. Sahure's consort was queen Neferetnebty.


that would be his trading expedition to punt then !
where he went to get materials they didnt produce themselves,
thats referenced on the Palermo stone iirc

;)

[Akhenaten]

Byblos, more than likely. Electrum is found naturally in Asia Minor, not in Africa, the presumed location of Punt, although given that Punt could be anywhere, I don't know.

[Marduk]

Byblos, more than likely. Electrum is found naturally in Asia Minor, not in Africa, the presumed location of Punt, although given that Punt could be anywhere, I don't know.

Punt, 80,000 measures of myrrh, [6,000] ... of electrum, 2,600 [...] staves, [... ...]
King Sahure, Palermo Stone
James Henry Breasted, Ancient Records of Egypt, Part One, § 161
;)

[Akhenaten]

Good-oh. Punt it is then.

Where's Punt, BTW?

[Marduk]

Good-oh. Punt it is then.

Where's Punt, BTW?

somewhere on the red sea coast south of Egypt
:D

[HansMustermann]

Ah, "Lime (found in the ash of ancient cooking fires)" gets us back to basically, a primitive kiln. Limestone turns into lime over 512 degrees celsius. A cooking fire would be basically a very small kiln in that aspect, and produce tiny amounts of lime at best, unless they actually deliberately added limestone to the fuel.

I honestly can't see how anyone in their right mind can think the fractions of grams of lime from cooking fires could add up to the ludicrious quantities needed for a pyramid.

[Akhenaten]

Maybe that's the real reason for the Pyramids. They embiggen things.

All they had to do was build a tiny Pyramid with the limestone from cooking fires, and the rest just grew.

[Marduk]

I honestly can't see how anyone in their right mind can think the fractions of grams of lime from cooking fires could add up to the ludicrious quantities needed for a pyramid.

its called "lack of education", pseudo history thrives on it
;)

[Marduk]

Maybe that's the real reason for the Pyramids. They embiggen things.

All they had to do was build a tiny Pyramid with the limestone from cooking fires, and the rest just grew.

youd make a fortune with that idea on the alterno circuit,
"they didn't build it, they grew it"
but what with
1. Alien magic dust
2. Atlantean magic dust
3. Gods magic dust
4. With silver bells and cockle shells And pretty maids all in a row

:D

[Akhenaten]

Of course they weren't paid; coinage was 2000 years in their future. A man's keep was his pay. At some times of the years that was tilling a field, at other times it was hauling stones. The workers were obviously fed, and presumably other amenities were applied as required to keep them pulling.





Ooh! I can add a bit to this.




Until the middle of the first millennium BCE no coined money at all was used in Egypt, or anywhere else for that matter. Exchanges were concluded using the values of services or commodities. These were often grain, but later increasingly metal rings of fixed weight, a sort of proto currency:




Behold, I have sent you 24 copper deben through Sihathor for the lease of the land.




Translated from Pharaos Volk by T.G.H.James







Seqanakht wrote 'copper deben' rather than 'deben of copper' which seems to indicate that he sent 24 copper pieces of one deben weight each. But during the New Kingdom metal rarely changed hands, though it was often used as a base for evaluation and comparison.




What he was paid for the painting of a coffin: Weaving of a garment, worth 3 seniu, 1 sack worth ½ sack of corn, 1 mat with coverlet worth ½ seniu, 1 bronze vessel worth ½ seniu.








Reference (http://reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/economy/wages_and_prices.htm)


My 2 deben worth.

[Gawdzilla]

Ah, "Lime (found in the ash of ancient cooking fires)" gets us back to basically, a primitive kiln. Limestone turns into lime over 512 degrees celsius. A cooking fire would be basically a very small kiln in that aspect, and produce tiny amounts of lime at best, unless they actually deliberately added limestone to the fuel.

I honestly can't see how anyone in their right mind can think the fractions of grams of lime from cooking fires could add up to the ludicrious quantities needed for a pyramid.
Evidently the Maya deforested huge tracts of the Yucatan to burn limestone to make the whitewash they put on their cities. I'm not sure of the exact locations of similar forests in Egypt. Can anybody cite a source for that? :D

[Akhenaten]

Isengard.

[Gawdzilla]

Isengard.

Orthanc was carved from Mt. Fang, wasn't it? In situ?

[Akhenaten]

Yeah, I think so, and also, it's black, so maybe that's not the answer after all.

Minas Tirith is white though. They could have cut timber iin Fangorn and floated the logs down the Entwash, although I think the Ents would have objected.

A moot point indeed. Hrooom!

[Gawdzilla]

Yeah, I think so, and also, it's black, so maybe that's not the answer after all.

Minas Tirith is white though. They could have cut timber iin Fangorn and floated the logs down the Entwash, although I think the Ents would have objected.

A moot point indeed. Hrooom!

Minas Tirith was carved from Mount Mindolluin, I think.

[Akhenaten]

Well, we seem to be knocking this limestone kilns idea on the head. I'd say we're back to the carved stone blocks for Pyramid building?


/spaceship scene from Life of Brian

[Gawdzilla]

Well, we seem to be knocking this limestone kilns idea on the head. I'd say we're back to the carved stone blocks for Pyramid building?


/spaceship scene from Life of Brian

A picture of the pyramids would kill the "molded" theory about the stoneworks. No two blocks are the same. Almost as if they were handmade. I wonder if anybody can come up with a theory for the aliens to have made each stone individually, and why alien engineering is so primitive looking when you get up close to it. ;)

[Akhenaten]

A picture of the pyramids would kill the "molded" theory about the stoneworks. No two blocks are the same. Almost as if they were handmade. I wonder if anybody can come up with a theory for the aliens to have made each stone individually, and why alien engineering is so primitive looking when you get up close to it. ;)





Yeah, that's part of the point I was making when I brought up the thing about the filler. A lot of people go on about how perfectly the stones are fitted together, but they aren't really perfect at all, and a lot of it is filled in with nothing more than rubble.

[Gawdzilla]

Yeah, that's part of the point I was making when I brought up the thing about the filler. A lot of people go on about how perfectly the stones are fitted together, but they aren't really perfect at all, and a lot of it is filled in with nothing more than rubble.

"Yeah, but that shows a clear link to the Flintstones." :D

[tyr_13]

Geez. The ancients didn't know about gravity, or how to wash themselves?
I'd better watch more of this Discovery Channel thing. Sounds amazing.

They knew about gravity in that things fell down, but not many of it's finer points obviously. As for 'wash themselves' I said 'hygiene'. These are the people who would smear croc **** on their dicks then have sex.

[Gawdzilla]

They knew about gravity in that things fell down, but not many of it's finer points obviously. As for 'wash themselves' I said 'hygiene'. These are the people who would smear croc **** on their dicks then have sex.

So they were aware of the Laws of Gravity, but not the Theory of Gravity. Empirical studies would handle that.

As for the croc do-do, croc's were sacred, so it made sense to them. They didn't pick up dog poop and smear it on, they had a "reason" for doing it.

[HansMustermann]

You do realize, I hope, that so many animals were sacred to the Egyptians, it would be quicker to list the ones who weren't.

Sacred animals of some deity included: croc (Sobek), cow (3 different deities off the top of my head), bull (another 3 deities), cat (Bast _and_ Bes), falcon (Horus _and_ Ra), ibis (Thoth), lion (Sekhmet, Tefnut and early Bast), jackal (Anubis), etc.

And until _very_ late Sobek was an evil deity. He rose to good only as Seth completed his demotion to evil in the xenophobia following the Persian invasion. You'd think they'd try the holy crap before the unholy crap ;) I mean, surely they'd try the animals of the good and helpful deities before trying the crap of the evil one they feared.

Or if they were that ambivalent about whose crap keeps them from getting pregnant, then we can include the animals of some other evil deities too in the list to try. E.g., the snake of Apep.

[Gawdzilla]

You do realize, I hope, that so many animals were sacred to the Egyptians, it would be quicker to list the ones who weren't.

Sacred animals of some deity included: croc (Sobek), cow (3 different deities off the top of my head), bull (another 3 deities), cat (Bast _and_ Bes), falcon (Horus _and_ Ra), ibis (Thoth), lion (Sekhmet, Tefnut and early Bast), jackal (Anubis), etc.

And until _very_ late Sobek was an evil deity. He rose to good only as Seth completed his demotion to evil in the xenophobia following the Persian invasion. You'd think they'd try the holy crap before the unholy crap ;) I mean, surely they'd try the animals of the good and helpful deities before trying the crap of the evil one they feared.

Or if they were that ambivalent about whose crap keeps them from getting pregnant, then we can include the animals of some other evil deities too in the list to try. E.g., the snake of Apep.

So the croc has a special status regarding fertility matters. Nothing surprising about that.

[HansMustermann]

I was actually expecting that objection, but that still doesn't narrow the list all that much. Sure, Sobek had a part-time job on the side as a minor fertility god, but so did almost everyone else. Even _Seth_, when he wasn't busy causing warfare and chaos, had a fertility gig on the side. (Yep, he actually kept that even after falling to the dark side;))

Plus, Bast and Bes were for example _much_ more major deities of human fertility than Sobek ever was. So you'd think they'd try cat poop first, right? Tefnut is one of the major creation deities of the Ennead, and mother or grandmother to almost all gods. And again a more major fertility goddess than Sobek could even dream of being. Surely they'd try lioness poop before croc poop, right? Nut, now that's one sexually active girl, fertility goddess, and mother of just about everything. She even gives birth to Ra every morning. Yep, she's a cow. Have fun with that one. Etc. :p

[Gawdzilla]

I was actually expecting that objection, but that still doesn't narrow the list all that much. Sure, Sobek had a part-time job on the side as a minor fertility god, but so did almost everyone else. Even _Seth_, when he wasn't busy causing warfare and chaos, had a fertility gig on the side. (Yep, he actually kept that even after falling to the dark side;))

Plus, Bast and Bes were for example _much_ more major deities of human fertility than Sobek ever was. So you'd think they'd try cat poop first, right? Tefnut is one of the major creation deities of the Ennead, and mother or grandmother to almost all gods. And again a more major fertility goddess than Sobek could even dream of being. Surely they'd try lioness poop before croc poop, right? Nut, now that's one sexually active girl, fertility goddess, and mother of just about everything. She even gives birth to Ra every morning. Yep, she's a cow. Have fun with that one. Etc. :p
Okay, two options I can see.

They used croc poop because it was supposed to be useful in limiting fertility.

They used croc poop because, well, just because.

[tyr_13]

At any rate, it's not evidence they knew hygiene very well.

[I Ratant]

A picture of the pyramids would kill the "molded" theory about the stoneworks. No two blocks are the same. Almost as if they were handmade. I wonder if anybody can come up with a theory for the aliens to have made each stone individually, and why alien engineering is so primitive looking when you get up close to it. ;)
.
Look at the giant murals in the desert in Peru. The aliens navigated by looking for the sign of the giant chicken, so their other "technology" wouldn't have been any better.

[Checkmite]

You got a point there worth considering.

Yes, I guess if the King died and then they decided to build the Pyramid ontop of him, the dead King would have turned into ashes by then. But if they were that smart to be able to build these great pieces of work, you'd think they would have thought of some way of making the tomb in accessible. (I.e., the tv show on that one deep shaft that was booby trapped, so that if people went down in it, it caused a flood gate to open, and the entire shaft filled with water forever. Did any of you see that show?)

They were smart enough to seal the entrance with stone. It's consistent - a pyramid has no moving parts; it's essentially nothing more than a very big pile of stone (albeit very nicely sculpted). There's no room or need for elaborate booby traps. The door was sealed up, and the pyramids were in a sense "guarded"; the kings' mortuary temples were in theory permanently staffed. As time went on, of course, people stopped making offerings and so forth as new kings became more prominent, and the temples may have fallen to disuse - and it's at those times that the things were vulnerable to being entered.

In fact, further study of both earlier and later tombs shows that aside from sealing the doors, the Egyptians really never spent a whole lot of time on tomb security even after many obvious contemporary violations, aside from choosing more and more obscure and out-of-the-way places to put them.

Unless they truly truly believed that (according to another persons post), that it would have been unconscienable for anyone to loot the tomb. They then also must have thought there was no chance that a mighty army could ever over take them? It is sort of like they were smart enough to make this heavy and sophisticated chain without pondering how the weak link might affect it.

Do you currently worry that the United States is going to be militarily invaded and conquered by Great Britain, attacking from the north through Canadian territory? Why not? It happened before. Are you concerned?

Of course not. And neither were the Egyptians. We're talking about the Old Kingdom here, a nice stable period. By the time of the pyramid builders in the 4th Dynasty, it had been over 400 years since Narmer had united Egypt, and during that time no foreign army posed even the slightest threat to the nation's integrity; nor were there any threats on the horizon. So yes, they were quite certain that no mighty army would overtake them. There was no "mighty army" out there capable of such a feat, far as they knew.

And even all that aside - never question the self-assurance of a man whose ego would build something like the Great Pyramid.

If the intent was to store the knowledge known about the Universe, then they would have buried it deep under the stones, virtually inaccessible by tunnel, or from the top or sides.

To what point and purpose? Why hide this knowledge? From whom?

[HansMustermann]

Okay, two options I can see.

They used croc poop because it was supposed to be useful in limiting fertility.

They used croc poop because, well, just because.

Yep, they used croc poop because that was the recipe they had for avoiding pregnancy. And because it worked too.

But Tyr nailed the real issue very well: the problem remains that they did use croc poop, which doesn't strike me as particularly hygienic.

[Checkmite]

Of khourse!


Don't you mean "3f hrs" ?

As for me, I strongly doubt the Egyptians used elephants. Firstly, I've never heard of them having any (I don't seem to remember them ever inscribing any pictures of elephants, certainly not in the OK anyway); and secondly, whenever the Egyptians drew a picture of something massive being moved, it was always teams of humans doing the pulling.

[Marduk]

I was actually expecting that objection, but that still doesn't narrow the list all that much. Sure, Sobek had a part-time job on the side as a minor fertility god, but so did almost everyone else. Even _Seth_, when he wasn't busy causing warfare and chaos, had a fertility gig on the side. (Yep, he actually kept that even after falling to the dark side;))

Plus, Bast and Bes were for example _much_ more major deities of human fertility than Sobek ever was. So you'd think they'd try cat poop first, right? Tefnut is one of the major creation deities of the Ennead, and mother or grandmother to almost all gods. And again a more major fertility goddess than Sobek could even dream of being. Surely they'd try lioness poop before croc poop, right? Nut, now that's one sexually active girl, fertility goddess, and mother of just about everything. She even gives birth to Ra every morning. Yep, she's a cow. Have fun with that one. Etc. :p

the most fertile symbol to the Egyptians was the Nile, the source of their existence, stands to reason any animal that lives in it that isn't pregnant all the time must have some innate contraceptive properties

this is one of the few things about the Egyptians that actually makes sense to me
;)

[HansMustermann]

Hippo? :p

[Marduk]

Hippo? :p

I believe they used that for baldness, makes the head fertile, it was applied with crocodile fat according to the Ebers Payrus
;)

[HansMustermann]

Joke aside, the actual recipe for the first recorded spermicide is crocodile dung _and_ fermented dough. (So you'd first get to knead the two together before inserting the result. The fun never ends;)) It sounds slightly more complex to me than just whatever animal lives in the Nile and isn't pregnant all the time. I mean, sure, maybe they could arrive at the crocodile dung by the line of thought you mentioned, but mixing it with dough isn't a very obvious idea to me.

That and the fact that it is at least thought to work (nobody seems to want to test it in vivo nowadays, sadly;)) is why I wonder what else did they try, before they discovered one combination that works.

[Gawdzilla]

Yep, they used croc poop because that was the recipe they had for avoiding pregnancy. And because it worked too.

But Tyr nailed the real issue very well: the problem remains that they did use croc poop, which doesn't strike me as particularly hygienic.

That's what happens when you get your information from a priest.

[Marduk]

That's what happens when you get your information from a priest.

yup and the information from priests today on contraception is still as valid.
:rolleyes:

[Gawdzilla]

yup and the information from priests today on contraception is still as valid.
:rolleyes:

Yep, still cr*p. (self-censor)

[Checkmite]

Plus, Bast and Bes were for example _much_ more major deities of human fertility than Sobek ever was.

Bes certainly; but Bast? I beg to differ. If she had anything to do with fertility, I'm sure it must've been a very local thing.

Also, you people are all forgetting about Min! Unlike Bast, Bes, or even Sobek, Min has been somewhat busy lately (http://www.news.com.au/sex-god-possessed-rape-accused-court-told/story-e6frfkp9-1111113353970).

[HansMustermann]

Depends on the period, which is why I distinguished between later Bast and early Bast in that list. The early lion-headed Bast was more like a Lower Egypt equivalent of the Upper Egypt's Sekhmet, a solar and war goddess. And they're sometimes paired like that, as the avenger feline team of the whole kingdom.

The later (new kingdom) cat Bast was a lot more tame and a lot more associated with Hathor, Mut and Aset. And she had absorbed a few elements from them. Thus becoming more associated with fertility, pregnancy and childbirth. Even as a protector deity, she becomes a lot less responsible for protecting the Pharaoh, and more with protecting pregnant women and babies. There are prayers to her to help get pregnant, and fertility medallions indicating how many children one wanted.

But again, almost all Egyptian gods seem to have a fertility component and a lot of them star on such medallions. It seems to me like some people liked to pray to their town's patron deity for everything, and fertility was a major theme for almost everyone everywhere. So maybe I am giving Bast more role there than actually warranted, after all.

[popscythe]

How about the Baghdad battery?

I'd like to hear some viewpoints from someone knowledgeable.

[Akhenaten]

I have some knowledge. My viewpoint is that Baghdad batteries are the wrong fit for a thread about Pyramids.

[popscythe]

Seeing as how this discussion has long since left pyramids and their uses behind and how the subtext of the subject was if technologies of some variety were used in the construction of said monoliths, I found it an appropriate segue towards getting us back on topic.

Then again, I did ask for it.

My assumption is that you're angry that I @#$%blocked Bast.

[Gawdzilla]

How about the Baghdad battery?

I'd like to hear some viewpoints from someone knowledgeable.

I've seen people saying it was a storage device, not intended as a battery. Just one report on that, sorry.

[Marduk]

Seeing as how this discussion has long since left pyramids and their uses behind and how the subtext of the subject was if technologies of some variety were used in the construction of said monoliths, I found it an appropriate segue towards getting us back on topic.

Then again, I did ask for it.

My assumption is that you're angry that I @#$%blocked Bast.

theres another thread in the history section "stupidest claims for pseudo history", you should post the battery claims for a fruit jar in there
:D
this is just for pseudo history as regards big piles of rock
;)

[Checkmite]

Seeing as how this discussion has long since left pyramids and their uses behind and how the subtext of the subject was if technologies of some variety were used in the construction of said monoliths, I found it an appropriate segue towards getting us back on topic.

Then again, I did ask for it.

My assumption is that you're angry that I @#$%blocked Bast.

Except that the Baghdad Battery is not an Egyptian artifact, which makes it still off-topic either way.

Besides, Bast was a she...she had no @#$% to block. So there!

[popscythe]

"You don't know about them egyptian gods larry, 'dell surprise ya"

[Tumblehome]

As silly as it sounds, doesn't that make more sense in coming up with such a convaluted way of entombing a Pharaoh, to guard against grave robbers or something? If that is what they wanted, then there should not have been passageways, and simply encased them in such a way that it be impossible to dig under the pyramids to loot the burial chamber, or to remove the stones to get to them.

Because a pyramid took so long to build, construction started long before the pharoah died, so passageways had to be built into it as a way to get the body inside. (They couldn't burrow underneath because that's where all the knowledge was buried.;))

Why else were all these people around the world, erecting huge rock formations?

Massive size was the very point. It was the pharoah's way of saying, Look how great I am! The pyramids were built to impress people with their size, and they succeeded so well that 3,000 years later, we still marvel at them.

I love those shows on DISC Channel, TLC, or HIST Channel. They have been repeating one lately where they pose that the Pyramids were really built so that they could cover up all the knowledge of the universe, possibly given to us by aliens, under tons and tons of rock.

The job of covering up knowledge today has fallen to faux documentaries like this one. Knowledge ends up getting buried under the nonsense that these shows throw out.

[popscythe]

Yeah I hate those too. I've always been fascinated by ancient monolith building, but those shows annoy me quite a bit. Not because I'm skeptical that I can't bear hearing stupid speculations, but because every time I watched one they had no useful information or evidence whatsoever. Every single one amounts to "Are these wild unsubstantiated claims true? Probably not, but we'll never know."

[Akhenaten]

Because a pyramid took so long to build, construction started long before the pharoah died, so passageways had to be built into it as a way to get the body inside. (They couldn't burrow underneath because that's where all the knowledge was buried.;))





True enough, although we need to remember that before they started piling up the rocks they did actually cut some passageways into the bedrock of the plateau. Perhaps that's how they got the knowledge down there in the first place.


Massive size was the very point. It was the pharoah's way of saying, Look how great I am! The pyramids were built to impress people with their size, and they succeeded so well that 3,000 years later, we still marvel at them.





It's almost like the Pharaohs are still with us.


The job of covering up knowledge today has fallen to faux documentaries like this one. Knowledge ends up getting buried under the nonsense that these shows throw out.





Quite right. I'm glad we don't see any of that nonsense here.

Umm . . .

[Filippo Lippi]

I don't know whether to be angry at Iamme for his hit and run or grateful to him for starting such an interesting thread.

[Akhenaten]

I don't know whether to be angry at Iamme for his hit and run or grateful to him for starting such an interesting thread.





Joy is in the ears that hear

- Saltheart Foamfollower

[popscythe]

Joy is in the ears that hear

- Saltheart Foamfollower

Sounds like a sailor hobbit.

[Akhenaten]

No, A Giant of Seareach.

[Stout]

Yeah I hate those too. I've always been fascinated by ancient monolith building, but those shows annoy me quite a bit. Not because I'm skeptical that I can't bear hearing stupid speculations, but because every time I watched one they had no useful information or evidence whatsoever. Every single one amounts to "Are these wild unsubstantiated claims true? Probably not, but we'll never know."

Good grief.

It's post like this that make me glad I live in Canada as the discovery and history channels we have up here are clearly different then what you guys see in the U.S.

Last week was Egypt week, of "Mummy Week" as they were calling it on History Channel so i recorded lots of shows. never once did i hear mention of anything that could even be remotely construed as aliens. whew ! They did feature one pyramid whose interior was filled with writing but explained it as being a later pyramid built during "hard times" when the typical accompaniments that usually follow a Pharaoh to the tomb were just too expensive to give up, so they gave him "knowledge" in the form of writing instead.

I have taken to trying to verify information delivered on these documentaries but for some reason Egyptology is a difficult subject to access. I can't get much past Wikipedia on the subject.

[Gawdzilla]

I have taken to trying to verify information delivered on these documentaries but for some reason Egyptology is a difficult subject to access. I can't get much past Wikipedia on the subject.

The Thebes Mapping Project would be a good start.

This guy claims to know a bit about the subject as well. (http://www.drhawass.com/)

[Marduk]

Yeah I hate those too. I've always been fascinated by ancient monolith building,

Monolith ?
wouldn't take much construction eh
:D

[Gawdzilla]

Monolith ?
wouldn't take much construction eh
:D

The tricky part would be filling it.

[Marduk]

They did feature one pyramid whose interior was filled with writing but explained it as being a later pyramid built during "hard times" when the typical accompaniments that usually follow a Pharaoh to the tomb were just too expensive to give up, so they gave him "knowledge" in the form of writing instead.

then they got that wrong too, earlier pyramids up til the end of the fourth dynasty didn't have anything in them except the king himself, no writing because that wasn't part of their belief, later pyramids contained spells to assist the King in Maat (underworld), The pyramid texts are an assembly of texts from several 5th and 6th dynasty pyramids. The Gizamids are 4th dynasty, claiming that the king didn't have the resources to fill these pyramids with the "typical accompaniments" is a bit of a red herring as theres no evidence that 4th dynasty pyramids had any "typical accompaniments" in them at all. This itself is also because of the religious belief, the fourth dynasty kings didn't require any assistance in the afterlife, they were already gods in this one. Later kings had to prove themselves worthy to enter Maat, so needed all the help they could get.
this site is the best on the net
http://www.touregypt.net/ancientegypt/
;)

[HansMustermann]

AFAIK, not quite. I'm not aware of any interruption in the Egyptian idea that the afterlife was a continuation of life on Earth, or at any rate not yet.

Simple tombs exist from 4500 BC where people had been buried with their wepons, pots, pans, decorations, and even minimal supplies of food. And AFAIK pretty much no change would occur there at least until the late predynastic period, apart from the weapons gradually becoming both copper _and_ stone, presumably the stone ones being ceremonial stuff placed there out of tradition.

Shortly before dynastic times, Egyptians seem to discover mud bricks, and that leads to the mastaba. But again, AFAIK they still included grave goods. As soon as their architecture skills were good enough for a two-room mastaba, those get shifted to the second room. They also start doing rituals to, pretty much, send the deceased more food and stuff.

By the fourth dynasty, when they started making pyramids, you're right that they didn't clutter the pyramid _itself_ with pottery and other goods. But by now each pyramid had a temple attached, and the goods for the afterlife were stored _there_. The temples of the third pyramid for example included literally almost two thousands of vessels with supplies for the afterlife. And invariably there would be an offering place to send him some more.

Yes, the Pharaoh didn't need much help with the Ma'at yet, but, like any other Egyptian, his Ka will still need food and drink in the afterlife.

During the fifth dynasty, well, I'm not sure that a Pharaoh would really lack enough goods for a funeral, so, yeah, that idea is probably bunk. But they did invent a new way to send him more supplies: magic spells. They would just do a ritual to conjure more supplies for the Pharaoh in the afterlife, instead of actually sacrificing some supplies for him.

The Ba, the new kind of soul (initially possessed only by the Pharaoh and the Gods themselves) that goes straight to the gods and needs no further sustenance, is actually a slightly later thing. AFAIK that would only be invented in the sixth dynasty. Hence I find it a tad unlikely that that special Pharaoh-only afterlife would play any role in fourth dynasty funerals.

[Stout]

Cheers Marduk

Wikipedia..and that touregypt site, which I ignored at first because i thought it was a travel agency trying to sell me bus tours.:o

I watched a show last night called The Real Scorpion King and interestingly one of the tombs they uncovered was made of mudbrick, and had several rooms, one of which was filled with imported Palestinian wine jars.

The show admitted they had no idea who was buried there but they were hopeful that it might have been the first king to unite upper and lower Egypt.

One other show I watched, sorry I can't remember which it was was suggesting that the pyramids were some sort of vessel, or device, if you will that has the Pharaoh's (soul?) blasting out of the top of it to rejoin his ethereal buddies wherever they may be.

I don't know whether I'm getting conflicting information here or different theories, or what but that bit about the Pharaoh coming out the top of the pyramid didn't sit to well with the idea that he's "need" a bunch of "riches" to take with him. One other show even speculated that objects found in one of the tombs were board game pieces included so the Pharaoh wouldn't get bored in the afterlife.

[HansMustermann]

1. Depending on the zone and particular flavour of religion, yes, the entombed guy might have been expected to climb up the top of the tomb and back into Nut. (The sky goddess.) A ladder would even be provided in the tomb. (They thought of such details, really.)

At other times, the pharaoh would be expected to sail across the sky with it. And a boat would be provided for that, often dismantled Ikeops... err... I mean, Ikea style. Kheops had such a boat provided for him, for example. (Hence my bad pun. Sorry.;))

Their Underworld was upwards a lot of the time.

Once the Ba would be invented, the Pharaoh's Ba would indeed shoot right up, though likely long before he got put in the pyramid anyway. His Ka still got to go boating through the underworld and whatnot, though.

And later it got weirder still.

We're talking about literally thousands of years, and their religion changed a lot in that time.

2. But yes, that mastaba you describe sounds like a pretty typical early Old Kingdom mastaba funeral.

3. Well, the Ba wouldn't need sustenance (until later), but the Ka did. And, as I was saying, the Ba only got invented in the 6'th dynasty.

You have to understand that the initial Egyptian idea of afterlife was very much unlike our modern one. It was just a continuation of the normal life on Earth. You'd still get to work the fields for a living, or rule, or weave reed baskets, or whatever you did best. You'd still get hungry, and you'd still get thirsty, and you could die in it. (Permanently this time.) You'd still need a chair to sit on, and a bed to sleep in... well, if you want to be comfortable, anyway.

Now, ok, you'd probably work for most of those in the long run, but it didn't hurt to have some provisions to help you get started. And if you had an excess of grain, who knows, maybe there's a drought in the afterworld, can't hurt to give some to your dead relatives.

And their afterlife world wasn't that separated from RL as ours is. Not only you could take stuff with you, you could be given more stuff afterwards. And the conduit also went the other way: grandma's soul could pop back into a suitable support (ideally, her mummy, but a statue or even painting could do in a pinch), see how you're doing, and read her mail.

No, really, they didn't assume that the dead would just know you're thinking of them, from afar. When they wanted to be sure grandma gets the message, they wrote a letter on a piece of papyrus, and place it in grandma's tomb. She'll read it when she drops by.

Or if you felt particularly confident that she/he is there, you could just go in (or lift the cover on some kinds of tombs) and talk to your dead relative.

They actually had to move around through the underworld too, hence including a boat if you could afford one.

But, again, around the 5'th dynasty, this all became increasingly replaced with spells and representations of goods. Even when actual goods were entombed, they were more like symbolic or ritual than practical everyday items. Actually giving your dead relative some grain or a new chair, would become replaced with just doing a spell so they get one.

At the very end of the 5'th dynasty, the Pharaoh Unas is for the first time entombed with a spellbook. By now the dead (well, _some_ dead at least) can even work their own spells.

[Marduk]

what he said
;)

[HansMustermann]

Just to add a little tidbit, the theory AFAIK isn't that the Pharaoh would be shot straight up through the tip of the pyramid, but rather at an angle, along the ramp upwards built inside some pyramids. He'd pack his stuff, assemble his boat, and sail up the ramp into the sky.

[Checkmite]

No, really, they didn't assume that the dead would just know you're thinking of them, from afar. When they wanted to be sure grandma gets the message, they wrote a letter on a piece of papyrus, and place it in grandma's tomb. She'll read it when she drops by.

Or if you felt particularly confident that she/he is there, you could just go in (or lift the cover on some kinds of tombs) and talk to your dead relative.

The kings' tombs - including the big G's, had small temples fronting them that served this purpose, so the plebes didn't actually go opening up the pyramids and traipsing amongst all that lovely sparkling finery in there. The temples, aside from being physically "part" of the pyramids, didn't actually have any passages by which the deceased could come to collect the offerings; evidently their ka had to ooze through the wall (which they could do, of course).

After the age of the pyramids, when kings' tombs were hewn out of the Valley, their mortuary temples tended to be built many miles away from where their actual bodies were interred - again, no problem for the ka. Nobody was really supposed to know where the mummies (and accoutrements) actually were, except of course for the workmen who physically created the tomb (and no, they didn't kill the poor workmen to "ensure their silence").

[HansMustermann]

Well, the king's tombs obviously weren't open to anyone, and were usually sealed by dropping a slab of granite or such to seal the entrance. (Ironically, you could cut through the limestone next to it with far less effort, though.)

The poor, though, were lucky if they could afford a support for the Ka at all, much less a whole temple for talking to grandma in style :p

ETA: But, yes, I can see how my description could give one the false impression. Thanks for the correction.

[HansMustermann]

Well, AFAIK the Ka didn't as much ooze through stone, but was in some way or another taken into account from the start. The temple would often contain some sculpture of the deceased, prepared to support the Ka just fine.

Also many temples and tombs, featured carved doors into stone, really just a bas-relief of a door, that was supposed to work as an actual door between this world and the underworld if you were a spirit. So it wasn't that the guy's (or gal´s) Ka oozed through the several metres of stone behind that "door", but really just stepped through the door in the underworld and came out in this world.

In the case of the temples far away from the actual tomb, again, AFAIK the spirit wasn't supposed to walk unsupported through this world. He would go through the underworld to the temple, pop out through the spirit door, and make himself comfortable in the statue.

[Elizabeth I]

Monolith ?
wouldn't take much construction eh
:D

The tricky part would be filling it.

And the dearly departed would have to stand up for all eternity.

[Akhenaten]

Twenty-nine of them did. One dude at Aswan at least got to lie down.

[Stout]

Cheers Hans

Damn..post #186 was an interesting read.

Not having studied ancient Egypt I find I have to constantly reming myself that the pre Alexander the Great era lasted thousands of years and evolved, culturally speaking during that time.

[Lucian]

Just to add a little tidbit, the theory AFAIK isn't that the Pharaoh would be shot straight up through the tip of the pyramid, but rather at an angle, along the ramp upwards built inside some pyramids. He'd pack his stuff, assemble his boat, and sail up the ramp into the sky.

So pyramids were Pharaoh-launching pads? Nifty. BTW, I don't care if he sailed off at an angle, I am going to imagine him whooshing through the top. It's just more fun that way.

[Marduk]

best Pharoah ever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Dv61DAT2M
:degrin:

[ZirconBlue]

I seriously doubt that, they didn't get around to producing electrum until 18th dynasty iirc, it was pliny writing a long time later that made that claim.
Electrum was only available in one civ at that time, so its possible they could have imported it, but theres no evidence of any surviving pyramidion covered with electrum from either archaeology or egyptian textual sources. thats why they usually say "Gold or Electrum", they have proof of the former, none of the latter
;)


Huh. I thought Electrum was created by Gary Gygax.

[BTMO]

best Pharoah ever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Dv61DAT2M
:degrin:


I have to disagree...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omLpwpRH6PA

;)

[I Ratant]

Much more entertaining...
A buncha pharoahs... pharoahii?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY

[dafydd]

Go home Tutankhamun,your mummy wants you.

[Akhenaten]

What's going on here, you heretics??!!eleven??

Oh, wait . . .

[popscythe]

What's it called then, Megalith?

"Oreo, Oregon, Oregano."
-A sure sign someone(me)doesn't know what they're talking about

[Marduk]

What's it called then, Megalith?

"Oreo, Oregon, Oregano."
-A sure sign someone(me)doesn't know what they're talking about

its megalithic, and its a reference to the size of stones involved in its structure, most of the pyramids don't qualify as they are constructed from relatively small stones, whereas something like stonehenge for instance is overqualified as thats all its got.
;)

a monolith is just one stone, from greek mono - alone and lithic - stone.

[Akhenaten]

I wonder if there are there any menhir who disagree?

[Gawdzilla]

its megalithic, and its a reference to the size of stones involved in its structure, most of the pyramids don't qualify as they are constructed from relatively small stones, whereas something like stonehenge for instance is overqualified as thats all its got.
;)

a monolith is just one stone, from greek mono - alone and lithic - stone.

It was my understanding that a monolith doesn't have any other stones touching it. If so, then Stonehenge would have a mix of monoliths and groups of stones. [/nitpick]

[Marduk]

I wonder if there are there any menhir who disagree?

let me just block any future puns here ok, its written in stone already, if I didn't say something you'd be pillaring them all up wouldn't you
:D

[Marduk]

It was my understanding that a monolith doesn't have any other stones touching it. If so, then Stonehenge would have a mix of monoliths and groups of stones. [/nitpick]

we're not talking about monoliths Gawdzilla but megaliths, thats kinda the point.
stonehenge has more than one stone in its construction, so its incorrect to refer to any of them as "alone"
;)

[Akhenaten]

I just like setting up little obelisktacles for you to overcome.

[Marduk]

I just like setting up little obelisktacles for you to overcome.

dammit, missed one
:rolleyes:

[Elizabeth I]

I wonder if there are there any menhir who disagree?

You are in so much trubble!

[Wildy]

Enough of these rocky puns.

[Tumblehome]

Why? The puns in this thread rock, man!

[Akhenaten]

I for one am hugely in favour of puns, but I'll see if I can't keep them closer to the topic in future. :)

So, is there any concensus yet?

My two deneb worth is that the Pyramids at Giza were for burial/resurrection (and kudos) and not for the sealing up of knowledge. As has been pointed out, there's almost no written material in them at all (some graffitti is the most interesting discovery), and I find that this lack of evidence reinforces the thought that the Egyptians had no interest in sealing up their knowledge anyway. On the contrary, aren't those big piles of rock meant to demonstrate their knowledge? Hiding one's light under a bushel doesn't seem to have been the Egyptian style.

Now, if we were to talk about later tombs, such as those in the Valley of the Kings, the answer might be different. There's a lot of knowledge buried there, without question, and there are no doubt still some holes that Zawi hasn't found yet.

I'm still missing, as an example of knowledge yet to be discovered in KV55, but so far the curse is holding.


mwahahahaha!

[Wildy]

My two deneb worth is that the Pyramids at Giza were for burial/resurrection (and kudos) and not for the sealing up of knowledge.

Deneb? That doesn't sound like any kind of currency/weight system that I've ever heard of.

I'll give you two copper deben of food if you can tell me what a Deneb is.

[Tumblehome]

So, is there any concensus yet?

My two deneb worth is that the Pyramids at Giza were for burial/resurrection (and kudos) and not for the sealing up of knowledge.


Aye.

Especially since the OP wondered if the pyramids were hiding not just Egyptian knowledge, but all the knowledge of the universe!!11!!

[Akhenaten]

Deneb? That doesn't sound like any kind of currency/weight system that I've ever heard of.

I'll give you two copper deben of food if you can tell me what a Deneb is.





I am an idiot. I think Deneb is a star, but I didn't Google, so if I'm right, my grain will be fairly earned.


Thanks Mate.

[Checkmite]

Deneb? That doesn't sound like any kind of currency/weight system that I've ever heard of.

I'll give you two copper deben of food if you can tell me what a Deneb is.

That's okay, he didn't get Zahi's name right either. :D

But then what do you expect from one who turned away from Amun? I mean, honestly - running the Sed in the third year? That's just unforgivable.

[I Ratant]

I wonder if there are there any menhir who disagree?
.
Sweet Thang would.
I can't do anything right, she says. :)

[Akhenaten]

That's okay, he didn't get Zahi's name right either. :D

But then what do you expect from one who turned away from Amun? I mean, honestly - running the Sed in the third year? That's just unforgivable.





I'm not having a very good day, am I? :)


Apologies to Dr Hawass. I hope he doesn't come up with some scurrilous new rumour about me.

[BPScooter]

I must humble myself and ask if anyone remembers the reference to Deneb in the works of the Canadian Rock Band called "Rush." I believe it was combined with musical themes, to refer to Cygnus X-1, in their reference to Black Holes and such. Is this reference now obscure? Relevant albums are "Farewell to Kings" and "Hemispheres" I believe.

[Marduk]

I'm not having a very good day, am I? :)


Apologies to Dr Hawass. I hope he doesn't come up with some scurrilous new rumour about me.

STOP PRESS : Hawass claims Akhenaten was a big girls blouse
:D

[Akhenaten]

I must humble myself and ask if anyone remembers the reference to Deneb in the works of the Canadian Rock Band called "Rush." I believe it was combined with musical themes, to refer to Cygnus X-1, in their reference to Black Holes and such. Is this reference now obscure? Relevant albums are "Farewell to Kings" and "Hemispheres" I believe.





It's funny, but that's exactly what I was thinking about when I was writing about ancient Egyptian currency. My confusion is explained.


Or not.


STOP PRESS : Hawass claims Akhenaten was a big girls blouse
:D





Nephert-iti says the same thing, but she actually finds it somewhat . . . stimulating.

[BPScooter]

"flew into the light of Deneb, sailed across the Milky Way" as i recall without copyright infringement. ©Rush, words by Neil Peart.

[Gawdzilla]

"flew into the light of Deneb, sailed across the Milky Way" as i recall without copyright infringement. ©Rush, words by Neil Peart.

Cygnus X-1. ;)

[Tumblehome]

"flew into the light of Deneb, sailed across the Milky Way" as i recall without copyright infringement. ©Rush, words by Neil Peart.

Cygnus X-1. :wink:


That was their swan song...:duck:

[Gawdzilla]

That was their swan song...:duck:

We must kill you know. Nothing personal, you understand.

[Tumblehome]

I admit I deserve it. I don't mind dying as long as I'm mummified and live for eternity.

[Gawdzilla]

I admit I deserve it. I don't mind dying as long as I'm mummified and live for eternity.

There was an ad recently, "Wanted, one God of Balance."

[Tumblehome]

I'm guessing there were no successful applicants for the job. :)

[Moss]

Interesting that a very learned and knowledge loving priest like Pediamenopet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pediamenopet) only recorded stuff like the common Book of the Dead instead of ultrasecret magical stuff in his grave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT33_%28Tomb%29).

[BPScooter]

I'm never sure if people are yanking my chain... so here goes: there's a little song-saga on this Rush band's albums, that involves a dude getting sucked into a black hole and being reborn. [some might compare this to the 2001 movies]. The dude's process on his space-ship is accompanied by the dichotomous bifurcationary duality of his very existence, which he hears being sung by a tenor-voiced bass player, characterized as what he knows by the all-too-human names Apollo and Dionysus.

If you never jammed out on headphones to this music, you really should!

[Gawdzilla]

I'm never sure if people are yanking my chain... so here goes: there's a little song-saga on this Rush band's albums, that involves a dude getting sucked into a black hole and being reborn. [some might compare this to the 2001 movies]. The dude's process on his space-ship is accompanied by the dichotomous bifurcationary duality of his very existence, which he hears being sung by a tenor-voiced bass player, characterized as what he knows by the all-too-human names Apollo and Dionysus.

If you never jammed out on headphones to this music, you really should!

That's the second part of Cygnus X-1, "Hemispheres". The story is of the struggle between "technology" and "nature", and how neither extreme is a good answer. Our hero, having been stripped of his physical body by passage through the black hole, is named "Cygnus" and is declared the god of balance.

[HansMustermann]

Interesting that a very learned and knowledge loving priest like Pediamenopet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pediamenopet) only recorded stuff like the common Book of the Dead instead of ultrasecret magical stuff in his grave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT33_%28Tomb%29).

The Book Of The Dead _was_ the "secret" magical stuff for the afterlife :p

Oh, you mean, the secret stuff to move stone blocks and whatnot, that wooists tell us about. Yeah, nobody ever found _those_ spells :p

[BPScooter]

You're totally right. I really should have said "followed by the experience of the dilemma of" rather than "accompanied by." Or something like that. We do agree this is killer Rush-geeky stuff, and that it's been a little too long since I've listened to it really loud.

But he did go by Deneb, so my basic reason for even bringing it up does remain sound.

[Moss]

The Book Of The Dead _was_ the "secret" magical stuff for the afterlife :p

Oh, you mean, the secret stuff to move stone blocks and whatnot, that wooists tell us about. Yeah, nobody ever found _those_ spells :p

Well, the Book of the Dead seems to have been more expensive than secret. And it seems to have been like the ability to "print money" for the scribes that did it. Instead of giving representative figurines and all that you gave your honored dead spells to get the stuff themselves, no or less craftsmen involved anymore. Afterlife empowerment? ;)

[HansMustermann]

Hence putting "secret" between quotation marks.

But yeah, you'd have quite the source of income as a scribe or priest. Between that, and preparing mummies and statues with the Ritual Of The Opening Of The Mouth, and whatnot, yeah, quite a nice scam they had going :p

[Gawdzilla]

Well, the Book of the Dead seems to have been more expensive than secret. And it seems to have been like the ability to "print money" for the scribes that did it. Instead of giving representative figurines and all that you gave your honored dead spells to get the stuff themselves, no or less craftsmen involved anymore. Afterlife empowerment? ;)

I was under the impression you could buy The Book of the Dead from priest/scribes? And that one copy would do for your entire family? Or am I wrong?

[HansMustermann]

Well, at least for everyone who was buried in the same tomb. The dead needed physical access to it, or more precisely it had to be within reach of a properly prepared support for the Ka. So unless you also wanted to have specially prepared statues of the deceased in your library, in the tomb the copy went.

But basically I think that's what Moss meant with it having the magic to print money for the scribes. Books were expensive before the printing press, and this was a guaranteed best-seller :p

[Akhenaten]

Hence putting "secret" between quotation marks.

But yeah, you'd have quite the source of income as a scribe or priest. Between that, and preparing mummies and statues with the Ritual Of The Opening Of The Mouth, and whatnot, yeah, quite a nice scam they had going :p





What they really needed was a heretic Pharaoh.


I was under the impression you could buy The Book of the Dead from priest/scribes? And that one copy would do for your entire family? Or am I wrong?





One per body was the rule earlier on, I think, although it was almost 'anything goes' by the time of the Ptolemies.


ETA: Too late, she cried! I see Hans has provided the correct answer already.


:)

[Gawdzilla]

Well, at least for everyone who was buried in the same tomb. The dead needed physical access to it, or more precisely it had to be within reach of a properly prepared support for the Ka. So unless you also wanted to have specially prepared statues of the deceased in your library, in the tomb the copy went.

But basically I think that's what Moss meant with it having the magic to print money for the scribes. Books were expensive before the printing press, and this was a guaranteed best-seller :p

I imagine people were dying to get it.

[Toke]

Well, at least for everyone who was buried in the same tomb. The dead needed physical access to it, or more precisely it had to be within reach of a properly prepared support for the Ka. So unless you also wanted to have specially prepared statues of the deceased in your library, in the tomb the copy went.

But basically I think that's what Moss meant with it having the magic to print money for the scribes. Books were expensive before the printing press, and this was a guaranteed best-seller :p

Sounds like a precursor for indulgence, at least as a moneymaker.

[Akhenaten]

Sounds like a precursor for indulgence, at least as a moneymaker.





That's exactly right, Toke, it does sound like the same sort of thing. I wonder if that's where the idea really did come from.


What would Martin Luther do?

[Toke]

That's exactly right, Toke, it does sound like the same sort of thing. I wonder if that's where the idea really did come from.


What would Martin Luther do?

I am not sure, nailing his thesis's to a pyramid side sounds impractical.

ETA: As for the origin of the idea, I am pretty sure that the smell of a licence to print money is inspiration enough.

[Akhenaten]

I am not sure, nailing his thesis's to a pyramid side sounds impractical.





http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/GreatPyramidDynamited.jpg

[Toke]

You just faked that!!!!!
The Egyptian Martin Luther would surely have painted his thesis's in hieroglyphs. :D

[Akhenaten]

I am busted!

Keen critical thinking skills, my friend.


:D

[tsig]

Sounds like a precursor for indulgence, at least as a moneymaker.

Well they never had a customer complaint so it must not have been fraud.:)

[Toke]

The same can be said about indulgence. :)

(And quite a lot of other scams now I think about it)

[HansMustermann]

Well, far from me to defend a scam, so I wouldn't say either was good. I will say though I find the Catholic indulgence worse among the two evils.

The Egyptian afterlife spells didn't get you off the hook for any sins. If you had broken the 42 commandments enough, it would still be the end of you when facing Osiris in the Hall Of Ma'at. You still had to be nice, basically.

The Catholic indulgences, however, were often bought in advance. Sometimes even given in advance, for whatever you may do, e.g., to the crusaders. Or you could plan on just buying one after the fact. It also created an idea that it's OK to do evil stuff. Hey, you paid, God thinks it's ok, why bother your conscience with it any more?

Now granted, the Catholics didn't invent it. It was just a power grab over the traditional Weregeld, except it was immoral in even that. The Weregeld was a form of reparation, sort of like the damages you'd demand today in a civil lawsuit for a wrongful death. The Church taking that money for itself... I find it abhorent.

On the flipside, well, the Egyptians tried to bilk you even if you had been good, whereas theoretically you didn't have to pay the RCC a damn thing if you hadn't sinned.

Bear in mind, though, that the worst imaginable sins, the sins so grievous that they severed ones very connection to God and absolutely needed the church to get you off the hook, were not the sins where you actually hurt someone. It was the thought crimes known as the 7 Deadly Sins. Probably the only way to never think any of those, and thus not owe the church a damn thing, would be pretty much to be severely retarded.

[Checkmite]

The Egyptian afterlife spells didn't get you off the hook for any sins. If you had broken the 42 commandments enough, it would still be the end of you when facing Osiris in the Hall Of Ma'at. You still had to be nice, basically.

But not really...

When you bought "the book of the dead", it wasn't just a set of scrolls rolled up and left in your tomb. A few of the most important "scenes" would also end up painted on the tomb wall, showing the deceased - by name - passing all the difficult tests, because for the most part if it was painted/carved/inscribed, it could be considered to have happened. Just as in the modern day where all dead people are fondly considered by their survived to be "in heaven", no ancient Egyptian ever "failed" the Weighing of the Heart* procedure, no matter how horrible a person they were in life.

* -- in which the deceased Egyptian makes a number of pronouncements about himself, such as "I never lied for personal gain," "I never cheated another person out of what was justly his," "I was faithful to my wife," "I never ran a red light," and the like. After this catechism, the deceased's heart was placed in one basket of a balance scale and weighed against Ma'at, which was a somewhat complex concept, but for the sake of simplicity let's call it "truth". Ma'at was represented in this case by the ideogram of a feather, placed in the other basket of the balance. This representation has lead some to conclude that the deceased's heart was literally weighed against a feather, which is not accurate. If the scale balanced properly, it means the dead person's defense of himself was truthful, and he was thenceforth ever after referred to as mAa-Xrw, "True of Voice", a phrase which appeared written after his name anywhere it was painted in the tomb - the ancient Egyptian version of "RIP". If the heart did not balance with Ma'at, it was theoretically thrown to a horrible monster named Ammut, who ate it, whereupon the deceased would immediately blink out of existence. Of course, as stated, this never actually happened...er, in the figurative sense...or whatever.