loch ness monster....here's proof

[kittynh]

you can even find proof of the paranormal on ebay...
though if the monster is real, isnt it just another animal

the odd part is that this doesn't seem to be a joke card...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2214221476&category=915

[WildCat]

That card is the Scottish version of the jackalope.
The pic looks like an iguana foot.

[CFLarsen]

Nessie has now only three feet??

(Incidentally, the foot indicates a land-living animal, not an aquatic one.....)

[RabbiSatan]

My first impression was that it was an amalgamation of a lump of tree bark, an acorn, and several animal talons (Which is what it probably is most likely).

[SteveGrenard]

Its not an iguana foot. It is a crocodilian foot but it is impossible to say which species. If it is really as large as they say it is from an Australian Saltwater Crocodile (Australian "saltie") which is the world's largest croc.

Its size could be judged by the relationship between the diameter of the lower bit of leg attached and the foot itself.

It compares in that respect with the leg showing in the following photo.

Its a front foot also which is not as webbed as the rear feett. Crocodilians have extensive webbing (for swimming) in rear feet but much less in front feet. The webbing, what's present, cannot be seen in this photo and this is often the case. The front webbing can be seen only with the foot widely spread out or
by closer examination.


Take a look at this record buster:

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/brittoncrocs/!cpor5.htm

[SteveGrenard]

An expert on salties looked at the photo and he says the articulation of the toes, # of toes and the flap of tissue indicates that it is a back foot.

Although webbing on back feet is prominent, it is not visible in this photo and can be seen only when the toes are spread apart.

"There are only four toes, and the articulation is wrong for a front foot. Also, the enlarged "mercurial" scales on the trailing edge of the foot are only found
on back feet. Might be a saltie, but if so it's only a small one (1.5 metres, roughly) judging from the relative size and shape of the claws"

Another croc expert said it could also be the foot of a Nile Crocodile.

Anyway, so much for loch ness monster feet.

[kittynh]

so Loch Ness has crocodiles....wow....

[Soapy Sam]

Aye! We throw them to the penguins!

[SteveGrenard]

This is obviously also a a foot and part of the lower leg that was ripped off or came off a taxidermied crocodile specimen.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by kittynh
you can even find proof of the paranormal on ebay...
though if the monster is real, isnt it just another animal

the odd part is that this doesn't seem to be a joke card...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2214221476&category=915

http://www.porthenry.com/phframes/marsi.jpg
OK. Now what about the Lake Champlain Monster (http://www.porthenry.com/phframes/champ.htm)? What is Democrat front runner Howard Dean's position on the allleged monster in his home state?

I won't know how to vote until he says something. :p

http://www.essentialschools.org/images/ff_pics/ff2002/dean.jpg

[lilac]

Oh my God- it's a scary, scaly fake! The lake monster picture isn't that believable either. ;)

[SteveGrenard]

There is nothing fake about the leg except that it is not from any Loch Ness Monster, its from a existing , well now dead, crocodilian. Here's a follow-up I got by e-mail from a crocodilian biologist as we have been discussing it elsewhere:

"The pic is obviously the left hind foot of a crocodile (Crocodylus). Probably a captive deformed animal from the looks of the overgrown, abnormal scales forming the typical crocodilian crest along the posterior margin of the hind foot. It has four toes, as do crocodilian hind feet. The elongated overgrown toe nails are probably from being kept in a small confined area in a captive situation where there was no opportunity for the animal the wear its toenails down - probably a smooth surfaced (fiberglass, glass, sheetmetal?) tank, tub, or pool. Can't tell how big the foot is or how old it is.

"Save your money folks. There are a billion of these feet floating around as alligator keychains, compliments of alligator and caiman tourist curios. "PB

[Ed]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


http://www.porthenry.com/phframes/marsi.jpg
OK. Now what about the Lake Champlain Monster (http://www.porthenry.com/phframes/champ.htm)? What is Democrat front runner Howard Dean's position on the allleged monster in his home state?

I won't know how to vote until he says something. :p

http://www.essentialschools.org/images/ff_pics/ff2002/dean.jpg

They resemble each other. Could it be .....?

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
There is nothing fake about the leg except that it is not from any Loch Ness Monster, its from a existing , well now dead, crocodilian. Here's a follow-up I got by e-mail from a crocodilian biologist as we have been discussing it elsewhere:

"The pic is obviously the left hind foot of a crocodile (Crocodylus). Probably a captive deformed animal from the looks of the overgrown, abnormal scales forming the typical crocodilian crest along the posterior margin of the hind foot. It has four toes, as do crocodilian hind feet. The elongated overgrown toe nails are probably from being kept in a small confined area in a captive situation where there was no opportunity for the animal the wear its toenails down - probably a smooth surfaced (fiberglass, glass, sheetmetal?) tank, tub, or pool. Can't tell how big the foot is or how old it is.

"Save your money folks. There are a billion of these feet floating around as alligator keychains, compliments of alligator and caiman tourist curios. "PB
This is highly irregular - you're the one who's supposed to defend these claims and we'll debunk them! you're invading our territory:D

[SteveGrenard]

One can't defend the claims of any large, unknown aquatic reptile such as a pleiosaur surviving in Loch Ness, Lake Champlain or anywhere else unless or until we have the specimen in captivity. Photos and sightings to date can be explained away by natural means or fakery such as this taxidermied crocodile curio.

When I see it, all of it, captured dead or alive, then I'll believe it. This was the case with the giant/colossal squid, with the coelacanth and other animals previously reported but unverified by science.


For the latest scoop on giant squid see:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2910849.stm


News on coelacanth finds:

New York Times September 24, 1998


Second Home of Fish From Dinosaur Age Is Found



By MALCOLM W. BROWNE


The coelacanth, a very rare fish with a pedigree older
than the dinosaurs, has delighted biologists by turning up in Indonesia.
Two of these ugly but fascinating fish have been discovered nearly 6,000
miles from the coast of southern Africa, the only place in the world where
coelacanths had hitherto been found



See rest of story on: http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199809/0438.html.

[kittynh]

It's one thing to find an unknown animal or fish in the vast ocean, or a deepest rainforest. But, Loch Ness has more eyes on it looking for a monster than any place else on earth. As for Champy, the locals don't buy it. One supposed film of Champy was nothing but frolicking otters. another hump photo was a well known rock that has been sitting there for quite awhile.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by kittynh
It's one thing to find an unknown animal or fish in the vast ocean, or a deepest rainforest. But, Loch Ness has more eyes on it looking for a monster than any place else on earth. As for Champy, the locals don't buy it. One supposed film of Champy was nothing but frolicking otters. another hump photo was a well known rock that has been sitting there for quite awhile.

I don't know how the Loch Ness thing got started, and I'd be surprised if many living there "buy it", except for the tourist industry.

I do know that Champy was invented by the Vermont tourist industry.

BTW, Burlington is worth visiting anyway, as is the Shelbourne Museum. And Lake Champlain is truly impressive as is any lake big enough to have a far shore over the horizon.

Shining big sea water. And good fishing.

[SteveGrenard]

I don't think being in the depths of the ocean is the only reason new species are not discovered. Coelacanths were brought up first by fisherman near the coast of So Africa at not that great a depth. If I recall some or maybe just one washed ashore dead. The colossal squid, however, does inhabit the abyss.
And there is some famous footage of a Univ of Florida biologist standing on a beach with a dead giant squid nearby that washed ashore.

Although new bugs and other insects are discovered all the time, we have had some recent notable larger species discovered including two new species of deer in Viet Nam, a new species of pheasant, 100 new species of frogs in Sri Lanka and two new Amazonian primates recently as well. The VietNam string of disocveries which are far from over just yet is described at: http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/species.html

I agree that with so many eyes watching Loch Ness and so many intensive expeditions to find or record Nessie, it should have shown up long before now and this puts a lot of doubt on its existence.

[Ed]

I love the concept of big hidden things in the deep.

I have often wondered why, for example, Charcarodon Megalodon would not still be thriving. Or those cool Pleiseasaurs.

I guess I am just a Woo at heart.:D

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
I agree that with so many eyes watching Loch Ness and so many intensive expeditions to find or record Nessie, it should have shown up long before now and this puts a lot of doubt on its existence.

I got one word for you, Steve: Psychics.

[Ed]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I got one word for you, Steve: Psychics.

Two words "paranormal research"

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Ed
I love the concept of big hidden things in the deep.

The Loch Ness monster and Champy are phoney-baloney, but my erstwhile roommate is not.

http://www.mythicimages.com/image/vl-cthulhu.jpg

Currently devouring the souls of soccer moms in the outer Boroughs of New York City.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
One can't defend the claims of any large, unknown aquatic reptile such as a pleiosaur surviving in Loch Ness, Lake Champlain or anywhere else unless or until we have the specimen in captivity. Photos and sightings to date can be explained away by natural means or fakery such as this taxidermied crocodile curio.

When I see it, all of it, captured dead or alive, then I'll believe it. This was the case with the giant/colossal squid, with the coelacanth and other animals previously reported but unverified by science.

Very well you leave me no choice:a2:

\exiting skeptic mode\

How can you disregard all the evidence for the existence of the Loch Ness Monster?!?!?:eek: So many reliable people have seen it for so many years, do you really think they're ALL lying???? :eek: :rolleyes: You''ve yourself quoted an expert for saying that the foot has "overgrown, abnormal scales" so it's clearly NOT a normal crocodille. Nessi is probably a crocodille that has grown to abnormal size and achieved immortality, due to the UFO radiation that hits the lake!!!!

http://www.lochness.co.uk/livecam/

Take that your close minded pseudo-skeptic:D :hit:

[GreyPilgrim]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4779248.stm

[GreyPilgrim]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4651679.stm

[Rolfe]

I don't know how the Loch Ness thing got started, and I'd be surprised if many living there "buy it", except for the tourist industry.By pure coincidence I was half-listening to the radio last night and heard the statement that the Nessie idea is thought to have been begun by a circus owner (someone wellknown, he was named) who was performing in the area, and watched one of his elephants having a swim/wallow in the loch.

Rolfe.

Oops, sorry, I should read to the end of a thread before replying, I guess....

[JimTheBrit]

This story's also covered in today's Daily Mail (page 15) and The Sun (pages 32 & 33).

[Azrael 5]

Sounds highly plausible.The Sun's graphic is quite convincing.Thoughts?

[egslim]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4651679.stm
Beautiful! :D

I may start an insurance company specialising in insurances against damage through paranormal means - what annual rate do you suppose I could charge for insuring against voodoo curses? ;)

[Bronze Dog]

Looks like eBay's pulled it.

[richardm]

Sounds highly plausible.The Sun's graphic is quite convincing.Thoughts?

Well... there has been supposedly a monster in Loch Ness for many hundreds of years so a 1930s elephant wouldn't cut it.

For me the most significant nail in Jumbo's coffin is the "Surgeon's Photo" - one of the most famous and the one which started off the modern hoo-ha. It was (as far as I'm aware) the first to depict the long neck that's now being portrayed as a trunk. Prior to that the monster was described as a huge lumbering thing, often on the land, not infrequently described as being like a horse (a reference to an each uisge, perhaps?). But that photo was - according to the deathbed confession of the photographer - a hoax of clay and a toy submarine. So where does that leave Nellie now?

[richardm]

So where does that leave Nellie now?

And more importantly, where does that leave the hoteliers now that the new season is approaching? In the news, that's where! :p

[Rolfe]

There's no reason why a bit of invention inspired by a bathing elephant couldn't have built on the earlier each uisge stories.

Rolfe.

[richardm]

There's no reason why a bit of invention inspired by a bathing elephant couldn't have built on the earlier each uisge stories.

That's true, but the claimed aim of the hoax was to produce something resembling a sea serpent, which one might expect to look rather like the picture. I don't think elephants need to be invoked but, well, who knows?

[Dr Adequate]

Well... there has been supposedly a monster in Loch Ness for many hundreds of years so a 1930s elephant wouldn't cut it. Well ... supposedly.

Are you thinking of St Columba?

Loch Ness Monster

[Azrael 5]

Well ... supposedly.

Are you thinking of St Columba?

Loch Ness Monster

So 1933 then! It's an elephant,case closed!
There was a riudiculous comment on the radio today,I think Talksport,that you could fit the world's population into Loch Ness! :jaw-dropp
Sport fans,not renowed for impartial thought!! :p

[geni]

There's no reason why a bit of invention inspired by a bathing elephant couldn't have built on the earlier each uisge stories.

Rolfe.

Problem is that if you missjudge the distance a Roe Deer would look even more monster like.

[Rolfe]

I know what you mean about distance. I was cycling on a canal towpath one afternoon when I looked across the canal and saw what I first thought was an enormous black cat, almost puma-sized, in the field on the other side. However, when I looked for a few moments longer I could see that it was actually a very ordinary black cat, probably about 5kg. The point was that it was walking across a featureless grass field, with no immediate scaling references, and my brain had at first interpreted it as much bigger than it was. Only on longer observation, taking note of such scaling references as there were, was the true size apparent. If all I'd ever got was the initial glimpse, I'd have been declaring there was a puma loose in Hebden Bridge!

Rolfe.

[Shaun from Scotland]

There is no hoax. Nessie is real. Come to sunny Scotland. Spend money. All major credit cards accepted.

[Nucular]

Well ... supposedly.

Are you thinking of St Columba?

Loch Ness Monster
Good article, but ironically a more thorough sceptical account of Columba's alleged sighting is given at gospelcom.net (http://chi.gospelcom.net/DAILYF/2002/08/daily-08-22-2002.shtml) (confusingly).

Just have a quick read of Adomnán's Vita Columbae (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columba-e.html), wherein the tale was originally recounted (see Book II, Chapter XXVIII), to get a feel for the trustworthiness of these tales of Columba's life. Can you find any that might just be partly true?

Clue: the work is divided into three books: Of his Prophetic Revelations; On his Miraculous Powers; and Of the Visions of Angels.

[Rolfe]

Yeah, well, if you find a source which is reliably dated earlier than 1930 saying that St Columba allegedly saw the Loch Ness monster, it might not prove that he actually saw it, but it does rather prove that there was a legend about a monster in Loch Ness before 1930.

Rolfe.

[Dcdrac]

Would an Anti Submarine Warfare Plane with its sonar set to maximum be any good at picking up any sign of a large creature in Loch Ness?

[Nucular]

Yeah, well, if you find a source which is reliably dated earlier than 1930 saying that St Columba allegedly saw the Loch Ness monster, it might not prove that he actually saw it, but it does rather prove that there was a legend about a monster in Loch Ness before 1930.

Rolfe.
Hmmm. Well it proves there is at least one tale, because here it is. To translate to the status of legend is a leap, though. Did you look through the Vita Columbae? It's so chock full of tall stories, of course there's bound to be one about a monster; but whether that reflects an existing local legend, the author's imagination, or just the Holy fashion (like virgin births were around 0AD), is up for grabs, I'd say.

It'd be interesting to know if there's any other documentary evidence prior to the 30s apart from this - if there is, fine; if not, it's likely this is just an isolated, random example of the common Georgesque monster story, no more tied to Loch Ness than the angels Columba saw too.

[Correa Neto]

Would an Anti Submarine Warfare Plane with its sonar set to maximum be any good at picking up any sign of a large creature in Loch Ness?

There have already been scans of Loch Ness, with boats tugging (non-millitary) sonars all along the lake. Even standard commercial sonars avaliable for fishing would be able to detect such beasts if they actually lingered at the lake's depths.

Guess what they found?

Yep, nothing.

[Nucular]

There have already been scans of Loch Ness, with boats tugging (non-millitary) sonars all along the lake. Even standard commercial sonars avaliable for fishing would be able to detect such beasts if they actually lingered at the lake's depths.

Guess what they found?

Yep, nothing.
Well, I seem to remember they didn't find literally nothing - at one point there was an unexplained, large signal but there seemed to be more reason to think it was a school of fish than a prehistoric monster. Can't remember much more than that, but I can look it up.

[Shaun from Scotland]

There have already been scans of Loch Ness, with boats tugging (non-millitary) sonars all along the lake. Even standard commercial sonars avaliable for fishing would be able to detect such beasts if they actually lingered at the lake's depths.

Guess what they found?

Yep, nothing.


They did find Nessie. It really exists. So shut up and bring your money. Nessie is real. No, honest it is.

[HeyLeroy]

Maybe it was Dumbo. (http://http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2072067,00.html)

[Dr Adequate]

There was a riudiculous comment on the radio today,I think Talksport,that you could fit the world's population into Loch Ness! :jaw-dropp You could.

The loch is 23 miles long, 1 mile wide, 750 feet deep. If we take it to be triangular in cross-section, that's 240451200000 cubic feet, or a little over forty cubic feet per person (taking the population to be six billion).

[CurtC]

Would an Anti Submarine Warfare Plane with its sonar set to maximum be any good at picking up any sign of a large creature in Loch Ness?Those planes don't use sonar, they detect distortions to the Earth's magnetic field, caused by large metallic objects nearby. For example, submarines. Maybe if Nessie exists and is made of metal.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

re: The sonar scans: Tied to that, didn't they determine that the Loch didn't contain enough aquatic life (fish, plants, etc) to support a reproducing populatio n of a creature that size?

re: Elephants: Maybe they escaped and went aquatic on us. Think of it, a herd of aquatic elephants! aquatephants? Lochephants? If we could breed them smaller they would be EXCELLENT for home aquariums.

Okay... I seriously need more coffee. brb

[Correa Neto]

Those planes don't use sonar, they detect distortions to the Earth's magnetic field, caused by large metallic objects nearby. For example, submarines. Maybe if Nessie exists and is made of metal.
ASW aircraft use MADs, but they also drop sonobuoys.

[Blue Bubble]

re: Elephants: Maybe they escaped and went aquatic on us. Think of it, a herd of aquatic elephants! aquatephants? Lochephants? If we could breed them smaller they would be EXCELLENT for home aquariums.


Bums to the home aquariums ... breed them small enough and we could have them deep-fried in batter. Salt 'n soss wi that, Jimmae ?





;)

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Bums to the home aquariums ... breed them small enough and we could have them deep-fried in batter. Salt 'n soss wi that, Jimmae ?





;)


Soss? Heathen! Salt n vinegar wi elephants.