EU: Jerusalem should be capital of Israel and Palestine

[Thunder]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1133616.html

there is absolutely NO religious or historical reason why the Arab areas of East Jerusalem can't belong to Palestine and the Jewish areas of East Jerusalem belong to Israel. The Arab areas will become the capital of Palestine and the Jewish areas will remain part of the capital of Israel.

The Old City, which is the true historic and Holy City, should become under some new special status, such as a seperate city-state or under a three-way council of Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

There will be some who will argue that it is a violation of the Jews' historic and religious rights to force them to give up parts of Jerusalem, which they have been longing for for 2,000 years..but this is all lies and deceit.

The Old City, the Walled City, WAS Jerusalem for more then 3,000 years, until the late 1890s when New Jerusalem began to be built.

Even under Ottoman, British, and Jordanian rule, the eastern border of the city never ventured more then a few hundred feet from the old wall. Not until Israel expanded the city's municipal boundaries by 300% in size. So now modern day Jerusalem includes areas that for 3,000 years was NEVER considered part of the city.

So don't be fooled by lies and deceit. Modern Jerusalem can be shared.

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs094.snc3/16145_1208845315308_1653977305_511437_7257344_n.jp g

[WildCat]

parky, since you love to report posts so much maybe you should report this one and have it merged with the existing thread on this same subject (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=161091&highlight=%22swedish+draft%22) started last week.

You even posted in it parky! This is spamming.

[Darth Rotor]

During the Cold War, the capital of East Germany was East Berlin. The capital of West Germany was Bonn.

Why do you think they did that?

[Thunder]

parky, since you love to report posts so much maybe you should report this one and have it merged with the existing thread on this same subject (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=161091&highlight=%22swedish+draft%22) started last week.

You even posted in it parky! This is spamming.

that thread is about a different topic. this one is solely about Jerusalem.

[WildCat]

that thread is about a different topic. this one is solely about Jerusalem.
It's the exavct same topic - the Swedish draft.

Stop spamming.

[Thunder]

It's the exavct same topic - the Swedish draft.

Stop spamming.

um...i chose to make one topic solely about Jerusalem. sorry.

[Pardalis]

It's barely 5 km long, and it's threatening world peace. Mindboggling. :boggled:

[Thunder]

indeed. there is no GOOD nor LOGICAL nor RATIONAL reason, why this very large and very recently expanded city, cannot be shared by two peoples.

the only arguments I have heard, are based on religious extremism, intolerance, bigotry, and outright lies.

[gtc]

During the Cold War, the capital of East Germany was East Berlin. The capital of West Germany was Bonn.

Why do you think they did that?

I have gathered the following but I am no expert by any means.

East Berlin was the logical (in terms of ease of access) capital of East Germany and fairly easily defended by the East Germans.

West Berlin was not convenient nor easily defended (except that NATO's seems to have been able to make credible threats of retaliation if West Berlin was taken).

East and West Jerusalem both seem to be more equivalent to East Berlin.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

[mortimer]

I also don't see any credible reason the Taliban's new Capital can't be placed in Arlington, VA. Amirite?

[gtc]

I also don't see any credible reason the Taliban's new Capital can't be placed in Arlington, VA. Amirite?

That's been inevitable since Obama was elected.

[Thunder]

I also don't see any credible reason the Taliban's new Capital can't be placed in Arlington, VA. Amirite?

right-wing Zionist logic: "having the Jews and Arabs share East Jerusalem is equal to having the USA and the Taliban share Arlington, VA".

:D

sorry, I guess I should have thrown in the word "strawman" somewhere.

[mortimer]

right-wing Zionist logic: "having the Jews and Arabs share East Jerusalem is equal to having the USA and the Taliban share Arlington, VA".

:D

sorry, I guess I should have thrown in the word "strawman" somewhere.
You probably should have, as I never said the two were equal.

[Oliver]

So don't be fooled by lies and deceit. Modern Jerusalem can be shared.


Of course it can be shared. And I don't see an alternative solution given the current political climate, can you?

[Darth Rotor]

East and West Jerusalem both seem to be more equivalent to East Berlin.
And there's the problem. ;)

[Skeptic]

I don't know about you, but I think London, Paris, Berlin, and a few other cities should be removed from their respective countries' sovereign territory and given over to some international UN body to manage, due to their extreme cultural and historical importance to all mankind. Especially if it's also a religious center holy to millions, like Rome in general, or the Vatican in particular.

Somehow, however, I'm not surprised that:

(a) such an absurd idea, clearly considered ridiculous when applied to any other nation, is considered perfectly reasonable when it comes to denying the Jewish state sovereignty, under the idea that the Jewish nation's territorial integrity counts for nothing and anybody can give it up as they see fit in the name of "peace" and "progress";

(b) the sole result of the settlement freeze, supported by the EU so strongly, was not any appreciation or even acknowledgment from the EU, but merely greater demands from them to even more Israeli concessions (Jerusalem this time).

[Thunder]

(a) such an absurd idea, clearly considered ridiculous when applied to any other nation, is considered perfectly reasonable when it comes to denying the Jewish state sovereignty, under the idea that the Jewish nation's territorial integrity counts for nothing and anybody can give it up as they see fit in the name of "peace" and "progress";

why would Israel want to keep tens of thousands of Arabs, when they claim to want to keep a Jewish majority in the city?

why does Israel need to keep Arab areas that only became part of Jerusalem 40 years ago?

[Skeptic]

By the way, security considerations are enough: history shows every city given over to the Palestinians simply becomes a terrorist base for shooting and other terrorist attacks against Israel -- as was, incidentally, the case when the city was divided before 1967. Somehow I think Jews in Jerusalem would rather face the problems of the Arab neighborhoods than the problem of Arab mortar and kassam attacks.

The same argument -- "why do you want to rule over them, anyway?" -- is always used to justify any Israeli withdrawal, in the WB, Gaza, Jerusalem, whatever -- and the reply -- "quite apart from historical claims to the land, when we given them land they just make it into a base of attack against us" -- is always ignored.

[Thunder]

The same argument -- "why do you want to rule over them, anyway?" -- is always used to justify any Israeli withdrawal, in the WB, Gaza, Jerusalem, whatever -- and the reply -- "quite apart from historical claims to the land, when we given them land they just make it into a base of attack against us" -- is always ignored.

what "historical" claims to the sections of Jerusalem annexed after 1967, does Israel have?

Israel has every right to argue that those areas that were Jewish before 1949, and became Jewish again after 1967, should remain part of Israel's Jerusalem. but except for those areas, Israel has no logical or historical reason to hold onto lands that do not have Jews now and did not have Jews prior to 1948.

[Thunder]

....waiting

[Skeptic]

It's interesting how those who rant about Israeli "ethnic cleansing" and "apartheid" magically forget that the only reason "Arab east Jerusalem" is "Arab" is because the Jews were ethnically cleaned from it by the Jordanian troops.

It's interesting how these champions of multiculturalism, peace, and understanding are adamant that the real obstacle for peace is that there just have to be some areas where Jews may not live and that this Judenfrei condition is non-negotiable.

Perhaps we can have a compromise. Don't divide the city, just hang signs in the appropriate places, "Jews and Dogs not allowed", a la those signs in Berlin in the 1930s.

[Thunder]

Perhaps we can have a compromise. Don't divide the city, just hang signs in the appropriate places, "Jews and Dogs not allowed", a la those signs in Berlin in the 1930s.

oooooh!!!!! a strawman argument and Godwining all in the same sentence!!!

nice one Skeptic.

now, tell me again why Israel should keep those areas of East Jerusalem that are not Jewish now...and were NOT Jewish before 1948?

you point out for us at JREF, those areas of East Jerusalem that were Jewish before the Jordanian take-over, and then we can have a conversation.

until then, all your doing is mindlessly repeating right-wing extremist horse poo poo.

[Skeptic]

An interesting double standard, isn't it?

If some place was Arab before 1948, it is really Arab now and Jews should not live there, the Arabs have a "right of return" to it, etc.

If some place was Jewish before 1948, however -- the old city of Jerusalem, Hebron, Gush Etzion -- and then destroyed in the 1948 war, well, then it is Arab forever and ever, Amen, and no Jews may trespass on fear of being an "extremist setttler" who is "hurting the peace process".

[Thunder]

If some place was Arab before 1948, it is really Arab now and Jews should not live there, the Arabs have a "right of return" to it, etc.

If some place was Jewish before 1948, however -- the old city of Jerusalem, Hebron, Gush Etzion -- and then destroyed in the 1948 war, well, then it is Arab forever and ever, Amen, and no Jews may trespass on fear of being an "extremist setttler" who is "hurting the peace process".

you never miss an opportunity to make a strawman argument, do you?

as far as I am concerned, Jews have the right to live in areas that were Jewish before 1948. jewish communities that were Jewish before 1948 and were made Jewish again after 1967, can become part of Israel.

but areas that were not jewish before 1948 and are not jewish now, have no need to remain part of Israel.

areas that were Jewish before 1948 but stopped being Jewish since then, well...things change.

Palestinians may have my sympathy in regards to areas of Israel that they once owned but have been turned into apartment buildings, office building, parking lots, etc..since 1948. but giving back such land really is unworkable. 60 years has passed and they must deal with reality, in such situations.

if Jews can reclaim lands in East Jerusalem that may have been jewish before 1948, and are not Jewish to this day..then hell...Palestinians have a right to all their lost lands in Israel, regardless of what is there now.

i say, just freeze the current ethnic dynamics on the ground right now. let the jewish areas go to israel..let the arab areas go to Palestine.

no double-standards, right Skeptic?

[WildCat]

you never miss an opportunity to make a strawman argument, do you?

as far as I am concerned, Jews have the right to live in areas that were Jewish before 1948. jewish communities that were Jewish before 1948 and were made Jewish again after 1967, can become part of Israel.

but areas that were not jewish before 1948 and are not jewish now, have no need to remain part of Israel.

areas that were Jewish before 1948 but stopped being Jewish since then, well...things change.
Which is a nice example of the double-standard you subscribe to, and proof that Skeptis's paraphrase was not a strawman.

[Thunder]

Which is a nice example of the double-standard you subscribe to, and proof that Skeptis's paraphrase was not a strawman.

where is the double-standard? i say let the current jewish areas become part of israel and the current arab areas become part of palestine. freeze the current ethnic dynamics right as they are.

if you want to give jews parts of jerusalem that were jewish prior to 1948...then arabs have a right to israel that were their land, prior to 1948.

do you really wanna play such a *********** childish game???

[bigjelmapro]

Parky, you thought I wouldn't find yet another thread with exactly the same arguments you've spammed in now, what, half a dozen threads?

[Thunder]

Parky, you thought I wouldn't find yet another thread with exactly the same arguments you've spammed in now, what, half a dozen threads?

oooh....good one!!!! :D