Bet against low IQ buddy

[Nabukadnezar]

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[RPG Advocate]

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So you bet your buddy that you could make the most content-free post on the forum today? Congratulations! You win!

[zooterkin]

So you bet your buddy that you could make the most content-free post on the forum today? Congratulations! You win!

Oh, I disagree, but it would probably be against the MA to identify the winners.

[learner]

Zero IQ. Thank gods im not alone, Wanna start a support group?

[Careyp74]

there was a thread over in Physics Forums with the same title, but gone now also. I think it has something to do with Nab thinking he was right about something about Einstein's theories, and his friend was actually correct. Probably posted here for a second opinion, but took it down because he was looking rather low in the IQ area himself.

If I am wrong, he can enlighten us.

[Cuddles]

I believe it was this question: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=361792

The answer is that there is a change in weight, albeit a rather small one. I believe Nabukadnezar was arguing the opposite.

[Careyp74]

I believe it was this question: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=361792

The answer is that there is a change in weight, albeit a rather small one. I believe Nabukadnezar was arguing the opposite.

Interesting question, I wonder if an empty memory stick actually does contain all nulls? Information does not equal a 1, and if a stick is empty (we need a definition for empty, either no data on it, or all 0s.) the removal of 1s to encode the data could result in a 'lighter' memory stick.

ETA: A blank eeprom contains all 1s. When data is erased, the entire block is defaulted back to 1s. A charge applied to the floating gate results in a ground, giving the state of 0 by way of Fowler-Nordheim tunneling.

[linusrichard]

I believe it was this question: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=361792

The answer is that there is a change in weight, albeit a rather small one. I believe Nabukadnezar was arguing the opposite.

Does that mean that my computer gets heavier or lighter as I add or remove information to the memory stick? If so, why? And if not, where does the weight change of the memory stick come from/go to?

[Careyp74]

Does that mean that my computer gets heavier or lighter as I add or remove information to the memory stick? If so, why? And if not, where does the weight change of the memory stick come from/go to?

Theoretically, the weight is from the extra electrons on board (that come from the computer that it was stuck into at the time of information loading) necessary to change the state of all those storage cells from a 1 to a 0 (see above for clarification)

This depends on the state of all those storage cells before and after data loading though. There won't be a noticeable difference in weight either way.

[Eyeron]

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

[Ziggurat]

Theoretically, the weight is from the extra electrons on board (that come from the computer that it was stuck into at the time of information loading) necessary to change the state of all those storage cells from a 1 to a 0 (see above for clarification)

No it isn't. The number of electrons doesn't change, only their location (within the memory stick) does. This changes the potential energy of those electrons, and potential energy difference leads to a slight mass difference. It's too small to measure directly, of course, but again, the number of electrons is not what changes, but their position.

[blutoski]

No it isn't. The number of electrons doesn't change, only their location (within the memory stick) does. This changes the potential energy of those electrons, and potential energy difference leads to a slight mass difference. It's too small to measure directly, of course, but again, the number of electrons is not what changes, but their position.

Overall, weight (as opposed to mass) probably changes almost entirely due to heat, rather than energy of individual electrons. Activity probably lightens it up, rather than the quantity of information. Density and convection.

[Careyp74]

Overall, weight (as opposed to mass) probably changes almost entirely due to heat, rather than energy of individual electrons. Activity probably lightens it up, rather than the quantity of information. Density and convection.

In a flash memory stick, heat would dissipate while the information is still there. Would that then mean a return to original weight?

[Careyp74]

No it isn't. The number of electrons doesn't change, only their location (within the memory stick) does. This changes the potential energy of those electrons, and potential energy difference leads to a slight mass difference. It's too small to measure directly, of course, but again, the number of electrons is not what changes, but their position.

How is it that the location of the electrons change, but the amount stays the same? In a flash memory stick, the amount of electrons in each cell determines the state. A completely empty stick, all 1s, would have far less electrons then a full stick of all 0s.

An electron weighs a different amount due to potential energy?

[Ziggurat]

How is it that the location of the electrons change, but the amount stays the same? In a flash memory stick, the amount of electrons in each cell determines the state.

The number of electrons in the floating gate changes, but the floating gate acts like one side of a capacitor, with the rest of the stick as the other side. So when you create a net charge on the floating gate, there is a compensating net charge of opposite sign around it.

An electron weighs a different amount due to potential energy?

Yes. E=mc2. Change the potential energy of the electron, and you change its mass. The amount it changes in something like a flash memory device is absurdly low, though. The rest mass of an electron has an energy equivalent of about 5x105 eV, so for a 1 volt device, you're talking about a change of less that 1 part in 105 for those few extra electrons charging the cell, which are a vanishingly small fraction of the total number of electrons in the device, and electrons themselves make up only about 1/4000th of the weight of ordinary matter. So you'll never measure the change because it's way too small, but in principle it's there.

[Careyp74]

The number of electrons in the floating gate changes, but the floating gate acts like one side of a capacitor, with the rest of the stick as the other side. So when you create a net charge on the floating gate, there is a compensating net charge of opposite sign around it.

Ok, one more question. When the stick is sitting out of a computer, where are the electrons at in each instance, opened and closed?

[Ziggurat]

Ok, one more question. When the stick is sitting out of a computer, where are the electrons at in each instance, opened and closed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Floating-gate_transistor

In the default state, the floating gate is uncharged. So if the memory stick is disconnected from any computer, then the electrons are distributed to cancel the charges of protons in the system, and there's no net charge anywhere.

The floating gate is charged by pumping extra electrons into it. These electrons are pushed over a potential barrier, and become trapped in the floating gate until an erase operation is performed. So the floating gate now has extra electrons. These electrons will produce an electric field. Close to the floating gate, this field acts to block the transistor from conducting. But what would happen if you charged all the floating gates in your entire stick, and the rest of the memory stick still had the same number of electrons as before? Well, your memory stick as a whole would be at a low voltage because of all that excess negative charge. What happens if you then connected the stick to a computer? Well, that voltage would drive electrons off the stick. The electrons in the floating gate are stuck, but electrons in the wires are not stuck once you connect it to ground (through the computer). It will lose electrons to ground until the stick as a whole reaches zero voltage, which will happen when it has zero net charge. So if the stick is ever connected to a computer, then it should have no net charge, only internal charge separation.

But in fact, that's not the sequence it happens in, because it never really reaches a net charge state. The electrons you pump into the gate come from the wires in your stick.

[mist]

Perhaps the bet was something like... I can start a 2+ page discussion just by posting "--" (the low IQ buddy thought it wasn't possible). :)

[Nabukadnezar]

The arguing and the bet was over if one could experimentally proof a change in weight (if such thing existed). This was way above our heads. I hope my English was correct.

[lionking]

I hope my English was correct.

Unfortunately, it was non-existent.

[I Ratant]

...,...:...

[lionking]

...,...:...

Can't argue with that, high IQ guy.

[Beerina]

I believe it was this question: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=361792

The answer is that there is a change in weight, albeit a rather small one. I believe Nabukadnezar was arguing the opposite.

You'd have to know what represented a 1 and a 0 in the flash memory. Looking it up, a NOR gate-based flash uses extra electrons to help activate the transistor, and this is a logical 0. Therefore an unprogrammed flash, all 1s, is lacking these extra electrons, and would have slightly less mass.

I'd need an EE to know, though, that they weren't elsewhere in the device, keeping its overall charge neutral, thus keeping the mass the same.

NAND gate flash the Wiki doesn't say exactly how it operates. "Tunnel injection"...of electrons, I assume, adding them? And is that turning it on to state 0 ala NAND? Left as an exercise to the reader.


I assume it's the weight of the electrons that's under discussion. There may also be some potential energy storage too, I assume, also increasing mass. This would probably be magnitudes less than the mass of the electrons, though.



A typical NAND gate adds x extra electrons on average to go to state 1 to 0 (or vice-versa). There are 256 gigabytes of functional storage on a particular thumb drive. If fully electronized, what is the increase in mass?

The manufacturing tolerances are 0.1g for the plastic cowling of the thumb drive. How many times larger is this tolerance than the difference between the two states of the 256 gigabyte device?

[phunk]

There wouldn't be any extra electrons in it. They would just be in different locations within the memory. Think about it, does your memory stick have a static charge? Can you pick up balloons with it when there's data stored in it?

[Cuddles]

The arguing and the bet was over if one could experimentally proof a change in weight (if such thing existed). This was way above our heads. I hope my English was correct.

As already explained, the difference in weight will be far too small to detect experimentally. However, unless everything we know about quantum physics and relativity is wrong, the change in weight must be there.

Therefore an unprogrammed flash, all 1s, is lacking these extra electrons, and would have slightly less mass.

No. As already explained, the device does not gain any extra electrons, it simply moves them around. Any weight difference is entirely due to the difference in potential energy (as previously noted, thermal energy would also change during use, but I'm assuming measurements would be taken after it's been allowed to get back to equilibrium).