Woo or true: Voice lessons for kids before puberty are dangerous

[kellyb]

I've heard this claim my whole life growing up (I took voice lessons as a smallish kid, and wasn't vocally damaged) and now that I'm a parent, I'm hearing it again.
My anecdotal experience (not just me, but some kids I knew who grew up to become professional vocalists) tells me that claim is bunk.

Is there any actual science suggesting otherwise?
Or is it just a baseless claim?

[CelticRose]

Lol, wut? How could teaching someone how to use their voice properly possibly be dangerous? :confused:

Is this supposed to apply to both males and females, or just males?

[sg1985]

I've heard this too from several sources.

Some of the reviews on Charlotte Church's CD Enchantment (http://www.amazon.com/Enchantment-Charlotte-Church/dp/B00005OWEJ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260341562&sr=1-1) claimed that her voice had been damaged from overuse. There's also a theory that Britney Spears' voice was damaged when she hit puberty as she was arguably a talented singer when she was younger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYoUi0Cyd88) but now can barely get out a note (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiLSNpHdulw).

I have no idea why this would happen.

[popscythe]

Supposedly Phil Lesh (bass player) was forced by the grateful dead to sing above his natural range so much it damaged his voice somehow.

[CelticRose]

I've heard this too from several sources.

Some of the reviews on Charlotte Church's CD Enchantment (http://www.amazon.com/Enchantment-Charlotte-Church/dp/B00005OWEJ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260341562&sr=1-1) claimed that her voice had been damaged from overuse. There's also a theory that Britney Spears' voice was damaged when she hit puberty as she was arguably a talented singer when she was younger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYoUi0Cyd88) but now can barely get out a note (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiLSNpHdulw).

I have no idea why this would happen.

Just listened to those links. FYI, I sang classical music in choirs for two decades.

Charlotte Church's voice is fine, but I'm hearing a lot of bad technique. Also, people are probably comparing her adult voice to the ethereal voice she had as a child and aren't liking it because it's different.

In the clip of Britney Spears when she was 10, she's trashing her voice. Her techinique couldn't be any worse. Anybody who treats their voice like that is going to cause damage, no matter how old they are. In the later clip, her technique is still awful; in fact, it's so bad that I can't really tell whether the voice is damaged or not.

Voice lessons are all about teaching you how to use your voice without straining or damaging it. I can't quite see how that could be dangerous.

FWIW, I and many of the people I sang with had vocal training before puberty, and none of us damaged our voices.

[arthwollipot]

I was a musician from about age 6, and I never heard that vocal training before puberty could damage anyone's voice. Not that I ever got any vocal training, but...

[Professor Yaffle]

I've never heard of this one before either. Aled Jones seems to be doing OK though.

[kellyb]

So, there's no real evidence?
This is (as I suspected) just (or mostly) bunk?

[JWideman]

Pretty much exactly the opposite. Straining does cause damage, but like any exercise, vocal training prevents straining. It's like saying kids shouldn't run around before puberty.

[arthwollipot]

I've never heard of this one before either. Aled Jones seems to be doing OK though.How's he doing these days? I haven't heard from him in ages. He must be, what... 20 now?

[popscythe]

Don't drink coffee after labor day because it's sinful.

[Darat]

How's he doing these days? I haven't heard from him in ages. He must be, what... 20 now?

Sadly he appears to have fallen through some weird time warp as I believe he is almost 40!

[Wudang]

Don't drink coffee after labor day because it's sinful.

A theologically incoherent statement. Since coffee is god, how can it ever be sinful?

[Mick Houlahan]

Well, this kid sounds pretty dang good to me.

http://hypem.com/track/385660/Young+Rick+-+Over+the+Rainbow

[Speedskater]

Have you ever heard 3 to 5 year-old kids at a playground? They quickly learn scream at ear damaging levels. That abuse makes the stress of any voice training trivial.

[Professor Yaffle]

How's he doing these days? I haven't heard from him in ages. He must be, what... 20 now?

Hehe - he's nearly 39.

He does a lot of TV and radio presenting, but is still a very good singer. Here he is dueting with himself:

5aP2FMuvwkk

And just him with his grown up voice:

xwyNnHgKMkg

And if anything has ruined Charlotte Church's voice, it would probably be the fags*.



*Using the British English sense of the word...

[Bikewer]

NPR's Fresh Air interviewed a voice coach/instructor who's primary interest is teaching rock singers how to sing without damaging their voices and also working with them after the fact; so many having caused severe damage by improper technique.

The latter condition is common; many famous singers have managed to severely damaged their voices through bad technique.

Seems that early lessons could do nothing but help....

[Dragonrock]

My sister-in-law took voice lessons throughout her academic career stopping only in her last year of college because the university limited her to under 20 hours a semester.

One of the things she was taught was how to know what her natural range was. So, as her voice changed she wouldn't try to force herself to sing higher than was good for her.

I suspect that the concerns come from kids who had training as kids but then stopped. They might think that they had to try to force their voice up into the range they had when their vocal cords were smaller.

[Rolfe]

Somebody better tell the famous choir schools that they're damaging children's voices....

I don't think so! The Vienna Boys Choir (and they don't get more famous than that) don't even let the boys shout while playing football. Anyone can wreck their voice through abuse and over-use at any age (Amanda Roocroft, I'm talking to you....), but a knowledgeable choirmaster training a cathedral choir knows what he's doing.

Rolfe.

[rockinkt]

Just listened to those links. FYI, I sang classical music in choirs for two decades.

Charlotte Church's voice is fine, but I'm hearing a lot of bad technique. Also, people are probably comparing her adult voice to the ethereal voice she had as a child and aren't liking it because it's different.

In the clip of Britney Spears when she was 10, she's trashing her voice. Her techinique couldn't be any worse. Anybody who treats their voice like that is going to cause damage, no matter how old they are. In the later clip, her technique is still awful; in fact, it's so bad that I can't really tell whether the voice is damaged or not.

Voice lessons are all about teaching you how to use your voice without straining or damaging it. I can't quite see how that could be dangerous.

FWIW, I and many of the people I sang with had vocal training before puberty, and none of us damaged our voices.


Well said.

Also - a lot of major stars still take voice lessons because bad habits are easy to pick up. Celine Dion and Justine Timberlake are two quick names that come to mind.

Edited to add: I spent some time last month with David Hasselhoff and his daughter Hayley talking about music and singing careers. The Hoff still takes some lessons and so do his daughters.
I know it's hard - but don't laugh - the guy can still sing!

[CelticRose]

Well, this kid sounds pretty dang good to me.

http://hypem.com/track/385660/Young+Rick+-+Over+the+Rainbow
Talk about a vibrato you could drive a Mack truck through! :jaw-dropp


And if anything has ruined Charlotte Church's voice, it would probably be the fags*.



*Using the British English sense of the word...
I'm always horrified by vocalists who smoke. Might as well take sandpaper to your throat.

[Rolfe]

I remember David Ward (Wotan in the Scottish Opera Ring in the late 1960s) puffing his way through a lecture/masterclass on Die Walkure. He said something about the tar supporting the vocal chords. A similar thing was said by the chorus master of the amateur operatic group I was in at university in the 1970s.

Completely mad, the pair of them.

Rolfe.

[trumpetess]

I see this is an old thread, but as a professional musician, I'd like to add to this conversation.

I'll say first off that I am not a voice teacher, but I had 4 years of voice training while I was a trumpet major at the New England Conservatory. I did not take voice lessons as a child, and I don't know if it would have been better or worse if I had.

The question: "Woo or true: Voice lessons for kids before puberty are dangerous"

Taken at face value, this would be woo. BUT, there is evidence to back up people who claim that this is true. Most of my vocalist friends from the conservatory took voice lessons as children, and I can only think of a few who may have been misled by having teachers who encouraged bad technique (and unlearning bad technique is a long, painful, and emotionally scarring process).

Child prodigies, like Jackie Evancho, will probably damage their vocal chords if they keep singing that way, because they are not using their natural voice, but instead trying to mimic an older, more mature voice. It's an inefficient way of using your vocal chords for optimum performance, kind of like sitting with bad posture. You're a perfectly good sitter, but eventually you will have back pain. When you start lifting weights, you don't start with the 100 lb bar bell...you work your way up to it. The voice is the same way. You start small, and don't stress it.

The "mature voice" of the child prodigy may sound very nice to some, but to the highly trained ear, it sounds like a child trying to sing with a "big" voice. Any person can modify their own voice to make it sound a certain way, and when you get used to doing that, you may be using bad vocal technique without even realizing it. A good indicator is if your voice feels tired, strained, or sounds scratchy or raspy. Good voice teachers stamp out the bad habits, and when you're using your voice in the most efficient way, you'll know it, because it will feel like GOLD.

The way I see it is that if the child loves singing, and really wants to have an operatic career as an adult, find a teacher who will STOP the bad habits, because years down the road, those habits may be irreversible. If they have no interest in opera, then fine, let them sing that way. Having a good teacher with a sensitive ear is pretty much what it boils down to. A good teacher will stop a child from mimicking someone else's voice, and nurture the voice they were given. Voices change so much too, even throughout adulthood. A woman who was a soprano in her 20's may find herself to be a mezzo in her mid 30's, or after having children. I always wanted to be a mezzo soprano, but alas, at this stage in my life, I am a light lyric soprano. C'est la vie.

[sadhatter]

NPR's Fresh Air interviewed a voice coach/instructor who's primary interest is teaching rock singers how to sing without damaging their voices and also working with them after the fact; so many having caused severe damage by improper technique.

The latter condition is common; many famous singers have managed to severely damaged their voices through bad technique.

Seems that early lessons could do nothing but help....

Some folks also just have a singing voice that easily "shreds" ( think dee dee ramone.) when overused. I am a 7/10 singer, at best. But it takes a hell of a lot for my voice to "shred", making me a decent candidate for live bands, especially those with more intense vocals or vocals with a large range in a song ( Anti-Anti christ by gwar, is a good example.). I have known many solid 10/10 singers, but their voice easily shreds , making live performance pretty darn hard.

[sadhatter]

Talk about a vibrato you could drive a Mack truck through! :jaw-dropp



I'm always horrified by vocalists who smoke. Might as well take sandpaper to your throat.

Smoking and singing is a double edged sword. It can give you an interesting sound if your into harder music, but it totally destroys your range and leads to a lot of vocal shredding.

Though, in the interests of fairness i have known vocalists who swear that it causes them to experience less shredding, and improves their ability to sing heavily.

[Complexity]

It seems like a very silly claim to me.

[Ziggurat]

The Hoff still takes some lessons and so do his daughters.
I know it's hard - but don't laugh - the guy can still sing!

Don't I know it!
PJQVlVHsFF8

[Rolfe]

Aled Jones just didn't end up with an adult voice to match his treble. Peter Schreier did. Them's the breaks, I guess.

I was listening to a fantastic treble on YouTube at Christmas. I note the soloist is now a tenor with the King's Singers.

ZUCnC83-9Po
That is a child who has been taught to sing properly. The management is not responsible for the consequences of idiots who ruin children's voices.

Rolfe.

[SomedayGirl]

The first person I thought of was Julie Andrews, who had been the Charlotte Church of her day. Astounding voice at such a young age but well trained, good technique, and enjoyed a 50-year long career of both recorded and live performances. I don't even want to think what the doc who shredded her cords ended up paying her.

Anyway, I can't see how learning good vocal technique could be damaging no matter the age of the singer.

[JJM 777]

I think the Medieval Catholic method to create male sopranos is dangerous for kids.

[JJM 777]

Did I win the thread?

:boxedin:

[jhunter1163]

Voices change so much too, even throughout adulthood. A woman who was a soprano in her 20's may find herself to be a mezzo in her mid 30's, or after having children. I always wanted to be a mezzo soprano, but alas, at this stage in my life, I am a light lyric soprano. C'est la vie.

This is true. I could never sing high C, but now as I approach 50 even high B-flat is out of reach. At least I still can sing my guilty-pleasure song, "Bridge Over Troubled Water". The day I lose that high A-flat will be a sad one for me.