Fatah declaration of its goals, August 2009

[Skeptic]

Their goal?

"To fight zionism, eliminate the zionist presence, and liberate Palestine".

Their method?

The same method used to destroy Czechoslovakia -- first get it into indefensible borders by speaking about "peace", then demand the rest / start the war, as per Arafat's "staged plan" of 1974.

Their defenders?

Lots of little Chamberlines -- those who naively think that if you give these genocidal terrorists what they want now, they won't ask for more later. These folks are known as "moderates" or "supporters of the peace process".

Also, lots of little Quislings -- those who rather like the idea of the genocidal terrorists winning against the Jewish state, and support them out of inner conviction. These are known as the "anti-zionists".

Sorry to intrude with the truth, and the obvious truth at that, into all the wonderful peace-making and stuff that's going around, but still.

[Thunder]

Their goal?

"To fight zionism, eliminate the zionist presence, and liberate Palestine".

Their method?

The same method used to destroy Czechoslovakia -- first get it into indefensible borders by speaking about "peace", then demand the rest / start the war, as per Arafat's "staged plan" of 1974. .

and your proof?

ZERO

[Darth Rotor]

Their goal?

"To fight zionism, eliminate the zionist presence, and liberate Palestine".

Their method?

The same method used to destroy Czechoslovakia -- first get it into indefensible borders by speaking about "peace", then demand the rest / start the war, as per Arafat's "staged plan" of 1974.

Their defenders?

Lots of little Chamberlines -- those who naively think that if you give these genocidal terrorists what they want now, they won't ask for more later. These folks are known as "moderates" or "supporters of the peace process".

Also, lots of little Quislings -- those who rather like the idea of the genocidal terrorists winning against the Jewish state, and support them out of inner conviction. These are known as the "anti-zionists".

Sorry to intrude with the truth, and the obvious truth at that, into all the wonderful peace-making and stuff that's going around, but still.
Link? You have me confused here. But if you are right about the Chamberlains and the Quislings, and you are not PWD at the moment, then what is the proper response:

Blood and iron arrives in the West Bank?

Is there a solution?

Or, does Israel just settle in for a nice forever war?

DR

[Thunder]

i think a source for these accusations is due.

[Skeptic]

DR -

I'm not saying there's necessarily a solution. But I know the so-called "peace" process is no solution.

There isn't a solution to all our health problems, either; that doesn't mean one should take arsenic to treat cancer under the "but what's YOUR solution?" idea.

[Thunder]

Skeptic- how do you make these claims, but provide zero sources and zero evidence?

[WildCat]

What's Arabic for plus ça change? Because that was the message last week from the Palestinian city of Bethlehem, where the "moderate" Fatah party held its first general congress since 1989. Fatah—founded by Yasser Arafat in the 1960s and led since 2004 by Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas—demonstrated that Palestinian national politics remain as mired as ever in conspiracy theories, duplicity and the glorification of terrorists.


In opening the congress, Fatah elder statesman and former chief Palestinian peace negotiator Ahmed Qurei announced "We have in our midst the hero Khaled Abu-Usbah." Abu-Usbah's "heroism" derives from a 1978 terrorist attack that killed 37 Israelis. Time magazine (back then able to distinguish terrorists from "militants") described Abu-Usbah's mission: "The terrorists hijacked two buses filled with tourists and sightseers, took them on a wild ride down the road toward Tel Aviv, shooting along the way at everyone in sight, and finally destroyed one bus in an orgy of fire and death."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203863204574348524005904140.html


S-CyeEtb8Zc


Equivocation coming in 3,2,1...

[Skeptic]

There are holocaust deniers, and there are holocaust-plan deniers.

"Yes, they said they want to destroy Israel utterly and kill or expel all the Jews, but what they really mean is... look! A squirrel!"

[Skeptic]

No replies. Imagine my surprise.

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

[WildCat]

No replies. Imagine my surprise.

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"
Pretty much it.

When they're preening for the western media and the useful idiots they talk peace.

When by themselves they're cheering a guy who murdered a bus load of Israeli civilians.

Disgusting.

[Thunder]

There are holocaust deniers, and there are holocaust-plan deniers.

"Yes, they said they want to destroy Israel utterly and kill or expel all the Jews, but what they really mean is... look! A squirrel!"

so...um...when you gonna provide a source for your OP?

[WildCat]

so...um...when you gonna provide a source for your OP?
At the Fatah conference this August:
During the conference, Abbas, in typical fashion, bombarded the Israelis with mixed messages. On one hand, delegates proposed revising the charter of Fatah — which was founded in the 1950s to wage an armed struggle against Israel on behalf of the dispossessed Palestinians — to embrace the principle of "two states for two people," a recognition that Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist. This revision is expected to be adopted by Fatah's newly elected leadership bodies. But, on the other hand, the conference delegates refused to strike out a sentence in their charter vowing to "liquidate the Zionist entity," and the delegates did not rule out the possibility of a return to arms if the faltering U.S.-brokered peace process collapses.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1915783,00.html

Bold emphasis mine.

So a proposal to recognize Israel gets shelved, while refusing to strike language calling for Israel's destruction.

You can start with your excuses now parky.

[Thunder]

You can start with your excuses now parky.

excuse #1.

-I'll start condeming Fatah when Israel can commit to suspending ALL settlement construction.

[tyr_13]

excuse #1.

-I'll start condeming Fatah when Israel can commit to suspending ALL settlement construction.

That's just plain sick.

[geni]

DR -

I'm not saying there's necessarily a solution. But I know the so-called "peace" process is no solution.

There isn't a solution to all our health problems, either; that doesn't mean one should take arsenic to treat cancer under the "but what's YOUR solution?" idea.

Err arsenic trioxide has FDA aproval for the treatment of certian types of cancer.

You may not like the kind of people you have to talk to to have a chance of a negotiated settlement but thats fairly typical.

[theprestige]

excuse #1.

-I'll start condeming Fatah when Israel can commit to suspending ALL settlement construction.
Why should the Israeli government suspend any settlement construction while the Palestinian government not only refuses to recognize Israel but remains committed in principle to its destruction?

[geni]

Why should the Israeli government suspend any settlement construction while the Palestinian government not only refuses to recognize Israel but remains committed in principle to its destruction?

Being committed in principle to the anexation of part or all of another state is not illegal under international law (otherwise the Republic of Ireland, Spain and Argentina would have issues). Actualy anexing territory that does not belong to you (which is what Isael is doing) is illegal.

The more practical reason is that it costs Israel money that could be better spent on other things and is part of the support for some of the more problematical Isreali political groups.

[Thunder]

Why should the Israeli government suspend any settlement construction

indeed. Israel should continue building settlements. in fact, they should speed up construction and double the amount. that way, the 2 state solution will clearly be dead, and Israel and the WB will become one state.

[mortimer]

indeed. Israel should continue building settlements. in fact, they should speed up construction and double the amount. that way, the 2 state solution will clearly be dead, and Israel and the WB will become one state.
Israel doesn't want that. Who is going to force it on them?

[lionking]

excuse #1.

-I'll start condeming Fatah when Israel can commit to suspending ALL settlement construction.
Way to go! A complete dismissal of the sources you demanded and an attempt to derail the thread and turn it into one about settlements - which it is not.

Come on parky, you were given on topic sources. Care to respond to them?

[geni]

Israel doesn't want that. Who is going to force it on them?

There are groups in Isreal that do. Due to the rather fractured nature of Isreali politics they have more influence than might be expected from their numbers.

[Skeptic]

-I'll start condeming Fatah when Israel can commit to suspending ALL settlement construction.

I'll condemn her rape and murder after it can be proven she ALWAYS did exactly what I want.

Besides, you won't. Long experience shows that, like all other "moderates", if Israel did just that, you will just make even MORE demands from Israel, and declare you will not deal with Palestinian genocidal intentions and acts until Israel fixes THOSE.

The excuses are ready made -- we need to "concentrate on re-starting the peace process", one must not give in to "extreme zionists" who use Palestinian violence as an "excuse" (which in effect means, "will these annoying Jews stop wining about being slaughtered!" and "Jews fighting back, we must stop this immediately!", but I digress), one must give the Palestinians "hope", etc.

But the bottom line is that anything Israel does, apart from more and more withdrawals and concessions, is condemned, and everything the Palestinians do, including random suicide terrorism and calls for Israel's destruction is ignored or excused.

[the_eye]

The same method used to destroy Czechoslovakia

Compare them to Nazis, that's a sign of rationality.

-- first get it into indefensible borders by speaking about "peace", then demand the rest / start the war, as per Arafat's "staged plan" of 1974.

Like Israel cares about the peace process? For all their talk of peace, they're as guilty as the Palestinians in regards to ignoring the peace settlements when it's convenient.


Lots of little Chamberlains

You mean like how people continue to support Israel even after the IDF commit War Crimes and ignore the peace process? Like how some sections of the American Public even after the Israelis betray and steal secrets from the Americans?

Also, what's your fascination with the Nazis?


those who naively think that if you give these genocidal terrorists what they want now


That's right, we shouldn't give in to the Israelis.

Also, lots of little Quislings

I prefer the term, anti-fascist.

those who rather like the idea of the genocidal terrorists winning against the Jewish state,

Please, you come off as a nutter with the "genocidal terrorists" nonsense.

[funk de fino]

DR -

I'm not saying there's necessarily a solution. But I know the so-called "peace" process is no solution.
There isn't a solution to all our health problems, either; that doesn't mean one should take arsenic to treat cancer under the "but what's YOUR solution?" idea.


Carry on acting like savages and killing each other then. See if we care.

[mortimer]

There are groups in Isreal that do. Due to the rather fractured nature of Isreali politics they have more influence than might be expected from their numbers.
Enough influence to intentionally create an Arab majority in Israel by annexing the WB? Highly unlikely.

[Undesired Walrus]

Their goal?

"To fight zionism, eliminate the zionist presence, and liberate Palestine".

Their method?

The same method used to destroy Czechoslovakia -- first get it into indefensible borders by speaking about "peace", then demand the rest / start the war, as per Arafat's "staged plan" of 1974.

Their defenders?

Lots of little Chamberlines -- those who naively think that if you give these genocidal terrorists what they want now, they won't ask for more later. These folks are known as "moderates" or "supporters of the peace process".

Also, lots of little Quislings -- those who rather like the idea of the genocidal terrorists winning against the Jewish state, and support them out of inner conviction. These are known as the "anti-zionists".

Sorry to intrude with the truth, and the obvious truth at that, into all the wonderful peace-making and stuff that's going around, but still.

What's your solution?

God Skeptic, your anger with everyone is so unattractive.

[geni]

Enough influence to intentionally create an Arab majority in Israel by annexing the WB? Highly unlikely.

They generaly plan to remove the arabs first. Hey it worked in 48.

[mortimer]

They generaly plan to remove the arabs first. Hey it worked in 48.
I don't suppose you have any evidence of that plan? If they are already implementing that "plan", it's not working very well, as the WB Arab population continues to increase.

[Praktik]

Ahhh WWII, is there anything that can't be shoe-horned into that template?

[WildCat]

Ahhh WWII, is there anything that can't be shoe-horned into that template?
"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it".

You think this is a situation that hasn't played itself out many times throughout history?

[geni]

I don't suppose you have any evidence of that plan? If they are already implementing that "plan", it's not working very well, as the WB Arab population continues to increase.

Greater isreal? Thats not exactly secret.

It's not working very well because it is ultimately a minority position and a fair number of it's nominal supporters have other priorities. However due to the fractional nature of isreali politics it's supporters have had influence over the years the most concrete result of which is isreali goverment support for the settler movement over the years.

[geni]

"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it".

You think this is a situation that hasn't played itself out many times throughout history?

WW2 was pretty much unique. In terms of how things normaly play out it's one of the least useful wars to track.

[Praktik]

No, I just tire of endless references to Chamberlains, Churchills and Quislings.

I don't accept that the Israeli/Gaza conflict can be fit into that profile, whether its comparisons of Palestinians/Palestian supporters or Israelis/Israel supporters (the comparisons are made with reference to both sides).

If I condemn the characterization of Israeli occupation policies as "nazi-esque" then to remain consistent I must also condemn the same mistake when applied to Palestinians.

[Praktik]

WW2 was pretty much unique. In terms of how things normaly play out it's one of the least useful wars to track.

and this

[WildCat]

WW2 was pretty much unique. In terms of how things normaly play out it's one of the least useful wars to track.
This is true of course, because the Palestinians aren't even trying to hide their intentions. The Germans never made official documenta available to the world stating their goal was to invade Russia and France and exterminate the Jews. The Palestinians, OTOH, have in fact written down their goal of destroying Israel and exterminating the Jews.

No, I just tire of endless references to Chamberlains, Churchills and Quislings.

I don't accept that the Israeli/Gaza conflict can be fit into that profile, whether its comparisons of Palestinians/Palestian supporters or Israelis/Israel supporters (the comparisons are made with reference to both sides).

If I condemn the characterization of Israeli occupation policies as "nazi-esque" then to remain consistent I must also condemn the same mistake when applied to Palestinians.
What do you think of the Palestinians stated goal of destroying Israel and Hamas' goal of exterminating the Jews? Both of these goals are written down in official documents, and repeatedly stated in state-controlled media. One doesn't have to read between the lines to infer it either, it's quite clear.

What about the Palestinians as currently composed makes you think "these are reasonable people we can deal with"?

[Praktik]

What do you think of the Palestinians stated goal of destroying Israel and Hamas' goal of exterminating the Jews? Both of these goals are written down in official documents, and repeatedly stated in state-controlled media. One doesn't have to read between the lines to infer it either, it's quite clear.

What about the Palestinians as currently composed makes you think "these are reasonable people we can deal with"?

What makes you think that I think that? "reason" is a scarce resource in that conflict IMO..;)

But I'm not going to argue as to how well/how poorly the Palestinians can be described as Nazis.

Its a fool's errand and doesn't get us anywhere, and I've already stated my opposition to those comparisons. I feel strongly that we can discuss this topic without having to invoke the Nazis.

[geni]

This is true of course, because the Palestinians aren't even trying to hide their intentions. The Germans never made official documenta available to the world stating their goal was to invade Russia and France and exterminate the Jews. The Palestinians, OTOH, have in fact written down their goal of destroying Israel and exterminating the Jews.

So logical parallels would be the likes of the reconquista some of the conflicts in German East Africa and the Mau Mau Uprising in kenya.

[Darth Rotor]

I prefer the term, anti-fascist.

Hi

A "Quisling" was originally a traitor who betrayed people to the fascists. WW II vintage. So no, Quislings don't hold an anti-fascist connotation, though the general term it is reflecting is "traitor" in most cases.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Carry on acting like savages and killing each other then. See if we care.
Invest in popcorn futures. :cool:

FWIW,

[WildCat]

What makes you think that I think that? "reason" is a scarce resource in that conflict IMO..;)

But I'm not going to argue as to how well/how poorly the Palestinians can be described as Nazis.

Its a fool's errand and doesn't get us anywhere, and I've already stated my opposition to those comparisons. I feel strongly that we can discuss this topic without having to invoke the Nazis.
The post you quoted doesn't mention Nazis at all. In fact, your response has little to nothing to do with my post which you quoted.

Would you like to try again, this time responding to the actual post? Here it is again:
What do you think of the Palestinians stated goal of destroying Israel and Hamas' goal of exterminating the Jews? Both of these goals are written down in official documents, and repeatedly stated in state-controlled media. One doesn't have to read between the lines to infer it either, it's quite clear.

What about the Palestinians as currently composed makes you think "these are reasonable people we can deal with"?

[Praktik]

whats the goal?

I accept that they want the jews out of israel, and cause the germans wanted the jews out of europe then you go "AHA! See! Palestinians = Nazis!!"

And I already responded to the last question, see above.

[WildCat]

whats the goal?
Whose goal?

I accept that they want the jews out of israel,Hamas doesn't want them just out of Israel, they want them dead. Stated so in their covenant.

and cause the germans wanted the jews out of europe then you go "AHA! See! Palestinians = Nazis!!"Where did I say this again? Oh right, I didn't. You just made that up as a diversion so you could avoid actually responding to my post.

And I already responded to the last question, see above.Quoting a post and then "responding" with random gibberish isn't the same thing as responding to a post. Perhaps it's a reading comprehension issue?

[Praktik]

Forgive me for thinking you were setting a trap.

I post a one-liner about my distaste for WWII comparisons, you respond with the post you're so desperate for an answer for.

Given what elicited that response, I think it was a fair expectation that me saying "yes, they want Israel "off the map"" would be greeted with a "Aha! Palestinians = nazis!".

Are we going to stop with the WWII and Nazi comparisons?

If not I'm not sure its worth my while to treat your post at face value.

[WildCat]

Forgive me for thinking you were setting a trap.

I post a one-liner about my distaste for WWII comparisons, you respond with the post you're so desperate for an answer for.

Given what elicited that response, I think it was a fair expectation that me saying "yes, they want Israel "off the map"" would be greeted with a "Aha! Palestinians = nazis!".
Hand waving and diversion noted. You don't intend to actually respond to my post, do you?

[Praktik]

What is any western liberal democrat going to think about calls for the expulsion of an ethnic group?

Of course its abhorrent!

This does not make the palestinians, or particularly rabid Israelis for that matter, equivalent to the nazis.

The question itself is pretty darned silly.

What were you expecting?

"Oh ya, Im totally cool with people wanting to kill others based on their ethnicity?"

If I was diverting it was only a diversion away from silliness.

What drove you to pose such a question in the first place?

The only rational thing I could think of was leading me into a trap wherein you would use my response to claim something nazi-esque about the palestinians. Especially given the fact my preceding two posts were about the bankrupt comparisons to WWII and the nazis...

[Thunder]

Hamas doesn't want them just out of Israel, they want them dead. Stated so in their covenant.

right....the part about trees and rocks talking. :D:D:D

The Hamas Covenant says NOTHING about "all Jews in Palestine must be killed.".

It is not necessary to LIE about one's enemy...to prove that they are bad people and do bad things.

When you sacrifice the truth you also sacrifice justice and your own reputation.

[quixotecoyote]

Article 32 is also a good read if you get such a hearty chuckle out of religious genocide.

[Thunder]

Article 32 is also a good read if you get such a hearty chuckle out of religious genocide.

why don't you quote it for us...especially where it says:

"all Jews in Palestine must be killed. they cannot simply be forced to leave, they must all indeed die".

:)

[quixotecoyote]

He he.

Genocide described in terms other than the 19 words in Parky's indicated order is just so silly, isn't it?

He he.

[Thunder]

He he.

Genocide described in terms other than the 19 words in Parky's indicated order is just so silly, isn't it?

He he.

proclamations...but no back-up.

I guess we should just take your word for it, ay cowboy?

[dudalb]

The attempts by the Fatah fanboys to prove that the goals of Fatah are really not what Fatah says they are is quite amusing.
A textbook case of ideology over reality.

[Thunder]

People who make lofty claims on JREF but refuse to provide sources or material to back-up their allegations, really don't belong here.

[quixotecoyote]

proclamations...but no back-up.

I guess we should just take your word for it, ay cowboy?

Given that you responded to the first declaration of intent to murder jews with smiley faces, I'm not inclined to do your homework for you.

Hamas ran up their intent to commit genocide on a flagpole, blasted it from the rooftops, shouted it in the streets, and did everything but tattoo it backwards on your forehead, and you keep trying to play moral equivalence.

I'm more interested in popping by every once in a while to point that out than running errands for your exercises in denial.

[Thunder]

Given that you responded to the first declaration of intent to murder jews with smiley faces, I'm not inclined to do your homework for you. .

actually, since YOU made the accusation, it is YOU who must provide proof of your accusation.

that's how it works here at JREF. the burden of proof..is on the one making the claim.

perhaps you should find a new forum. Maybe Disney.com has one.

[bigjelmapro]

Its on the first page. Just because the evidence provided via links is on the previous page does not mean its passé and doesn't need responding to. This is the case in this thread and every other one of the thread Parky chooses to respond in. Cherry-pick away..

[Thunder]

Its on the first page.

a link to the Hamas Covenant is not on the first page. try again.

..or don't.

[WildCat]

What is any western liberal democrat going to think about calls for the expulsion of an ethnic group?
Hamas calls for the extermination of the Jews. Not just the expulsion of them, they want to kill them. And they won an election with that on their platform!

Of course its abhorrent!Absolutely.

This does not make the palestinians, or particularly rabid Israelis for that matter, equivalent to the nazis.The only one harping on about the Nazis is you Praktik. And I'm not aware of any Israelis calling for the extermination of the Palestinians. Certainly not by any political party, yet that is exactly what Hamas calls for wrt Jews. And they were elected to power in Gaza with that on their platform.

The question itself is pretty darned silly.

What were you expecting?

"Oh ya, Im totally cool with people wanting to kill others based on their ethnicity?"

If I was diverting it was only a diversion away from silliness.A party whose covenant includes a call to genocide is elected to power and you think it's just "silly"?

What drove you to pose such a question in the first place?I was wondering if you really understand what Israel is up against. Apparently you don't.

The only rational thing I could think of was leading me into a trap wherein you would use my response to claim something nazi-esque about the palestinians. Especially given the fact my preceding two posts were about the bankrupt comparisons to WWII and the nazis...The only one here with a Nazi hangup appears to be you.

[WildCat]

right....the part about trees and rocks talking. :D:D:D
That is there to give a religious rationale for killing all the Jews. Hamas certainly won't wait for rocks and trees to start talking before attempting to carry out their intentions.

The Hamas Covenant says NOTHING about "all Jews in Palestine must be killed.".
True, it calls for the Jews to be killed without reference to any geographic place.

It is not necessary to LIE about one's enemy...to prove that they are bad people and do bad things.
Of course not, which is why I haven't lied.

When you sacrifice the truth you also sacrifice justice and your own reputation.
You understand this, and yet you claim the Hamas Covenent doesn't call for the killing of the Jews. :rolleyes:

[WildCat]

The attempts by the Fatah fanboys to prove that the goals of Fatah are really not what Fatah says they are is quite amusing.
A textbook case of ideology over reality.
Yep. None are so blind as will not see...

[quixotecoyote]

Yep. None are so blind as will not see...

In the interests of accuracy, I believe he was being a Hamas fanboy at that point in the discussion

[Thunder]

In the interests of accuracy, I believe he was being a Hamas fanboy at that point in the discussion

are you a fan of the Nazis? do you believe that the Holocaust is a lie?

[Thunder]

Yep. None are so blind as will not see...

the blind leading the bling...ay Wildcat?

:)

[WildCat]

are you a fan of the Nazis? do you believe that the Holocaust is a lie?
How... bizarre.

the Hamas and Fatah apologists are desperate to turn this into a Nazi thread rather than acknowledge the stated goals of those organizations.

How did you like Fatah having as their guest of honor a man who murdered 37 Israeli civilians on a bus parky?

[Thunder]

How did you like Fatah having as their guest of honor a man who murdered 37 Israeli civilians on a bus parky?

At this year's Israeli annual honoring of the terrorist attack upon the King David Hotel, PM Netanyahu paid his respects to the "brave" soldiers who killed scores of innocent civilians.

but...this is ok...cause Jews don't commit terrorism. only Arabs do. right Wildcat?

I'm still waiting for Israel to demolish the Irgun Museum in Tel Aviv. Jews should know better then to honor terrorists..with a damn museum.

And, um, when is Israel gonna get rid of that pathetic military ribbon honoring the Lehi? Does Israel think its ok to murder civilian ambassadors?

Oh, and of course in 2005, Israel's President honored the surviving members of the terrorist false-flag Lavon Affair, with certificates of appreciation.

Do the Palestinians have a Hamas museum?

[Skeptic]

I might wish to point out that comparing someone to the Nazis isn't inapropriate if in fact they are similar to the Nazis.

Let's see:

Nazi goal: destroy the Jews.
Fatah goal: destroy the Jews.
Hamas goal: destroy the Jews.

As per their own covenants, of course. The comparison is therefore quite appropriate.

The nit-picking to the effect that maybe Hamas and Fatah will be satisfied "only" with a wholesale slaughter / expulsion of millions of Jews in a limited area, not the actual physical death of every Jew on the planet, is:

1). Doubtful, especially in Hamas' case.

2). Could be used to justify the Nazis as well, since most modern historians agree that the move from expulsion to total extermination was a complicated process, not planned 100% in advance.

3). In any case, a distinction without a difference. One might as well claim the American Nazi party is "peace-loving" and "moderate" because it only wants to expel all Jews and to revise history to make it the world think they had it coming (much like Fatah's goal and its constant "zionism is racism" propaganda), not to actually kill all Jews on the face of the planet.

[Thunder]

Let's see:

Nazi goal: destroy the Jews.
Fatah goal: destroy the Jews.
Hamas goal: destroy the Jews.


hmmm....NYC has tons of Arab Muslims. No doubt some of them support Hamas.

when is the last time there was a Hamas operation to kill Jews in NYC?

ummmmm.....could it be...never??????

:)

and for the record, while I consider Hamas to be an evil terrorist organization, that should have all of its leaders put on trial for war crimes, I also do not shed ONE tear when Hamas kills an illegal settler in the WB. Not one tear.

If these people can run around, destroying Arab property, attacking Arab civilians, with total impunity, then they deserve some payback..now and then.

The illegal settlers ONLY understand and respect strength. So that is what they should receive.

[quixotecoyote]

are you a fan of the Nazis? do you believe that the Holocaust is a lie?

<poke> <poke>

Umm.... Mods!

I think this chew toy is broken. May I please have a new one?

[WildCat]

At this year's Israeli annual honoring of the terrorist attack upon the King David Hotel, PM Netanyahu paid his respects to the "brave" soldiers who killed scores of innocent civilians.

but...this is ok...cause Jews don't commit terrorism. only Arabs do. right Wildcat?
Not even a close comparison. WWII era, the target was military, and a warning was phoned in ahead of time. And it was widely condemned at the time by Jewish officials and the Jewish press.

The 60th anniversary commemoration was appalling.

Compare/contrast.

I predicted this equivocation of yours in post #7 btw.

And what does this have to do with Fatah's goal of destroying Israel, and Hamas' desire to kill the Jews?

[Thunder]

Not even a close comparison. WWII era, the target was military, and a warning was phoned in ahead of time. And it was widely condemned at the time by Jewish officials and the Jewish press.


key words "at the time".

today, their is an annual ceremony to honor the event.
there is a Museum honoring the Irgun.

looks like Israelis now really love their terrorists.

now, how about that Lehi ribbon? or do you think its ok to murder Ambassadors?

how about those certificates of appreciation handed out to the Lavon Affair conspirators?

cat got your tongue...Wildcat?

:p

[WildCat]

and for the record, while I consider Hamas to be an evil terrorist organization, that should have all of its leaders put on trial for war crimes, I also do not shed ONE tear when Hamas kills an illegal settler in the WB. Not one tear.

If these people can run around, destroying Arab property, attacking Arab civilians, with total impunity, then they deserve some payback..now and then.

The illegal settlers ONLY understand and respect strength. So that is what they should receive.
Wow, parky advocates death penalty for the settlers.

Carry on parky, this thread is quite enlightening.

[Thunder]

<poke> <poke>

Umm.... Mods!

I think this chew toy is broken. May I please have a new one?

those were honest questions.

[Thunder]

Wow, parky advocates death penalty for the settlers.

Carry on parky, this thread is quite enlightening.

criminals should be punished for their crimes. do you not believe in following the law?

you know, there is a reason why Hamas and Islamic Jihad never targeted the settlers for large attacks. wanna know why this is?

cause Israelis would rightfully not bat an eye, if they did.

and neither would I.

[WildCat]

how about those certificates of appreciation handed out to the Lavon Affair conspirators?
How many people did that operation kill or injure parky?

[Thunder]

How many people did that operation kill or injure parky?

"terrorism is no big deal, if the bombs go off pre-maturely and fail to kill their intended targets".

:D:p:)

say something else Wildcat, you're on a roll!!!!

[quixotecoyote]

those were honest questions.

Horse Pucky

[WildCat]

criminals should be punished for their crimes. do you not believe in following the law?
So Hamas is merely enforcing the rule of law by killing innocent civilians?

Keep posting parky, this is very insightful.

[WildCat]

"terrorism is no big deal, if the bombs go off pre-maturely and fail to kill their intended targets".

:D:p:)

say something else Wildcat, you're on a roll!!!!
Oh look, now parky is making stuff up!

Keep posting parky.

[Thunder]

So Hamas is merely enforcing the rule of law by killing innocent civilians?

Keep posting parky, this is very insightful.

now I understand why you support the terrorist attack upon the King David Hotel, the murder of Ambassador Bernodette, and the failed false-flag attacks in Egypt.

[tyr_13]

now I understand why you support the terrorist attack upon the King David Hotel, the murder of Ambassador Bernodette, and the failed false-flag attacks in Egypt.

At best this is a derail.

I'm overall flabbergasted by this thread.

[WildCat]

now I understand why you support the terrorist attack upon the King David Hotel, the murder of Ambassador Bernodette, and the failed false-flag attacks in Egypt.
It's clear you really don't understand much of anything, much less what I do and don't support.

You, OTOH, clearly support attacks on civilians.

[Thunder]

How many people did that operation kill or injure parky?

hmmm...sounds like a justification..or an excuse.

tell us Wildcat...which one is this?

what about the murder of Folk Bernadette?

what about the killing of civilians at the King David Hotel?

what are your excuses/justifications for these terrorist acts?

[quixotecoyote]

hmmm...sounds like a justification..or an excuse.

Tell us wildcat...which one is this?

What about the murder of folk bernadette?

What about the killing of civilians at the king david hotel?

What are your excuses/justifications for these terrorist acts?

rtft

[lionking]

At best this is a derail.



And not the first one. When certain members are thoroughly demolished when dealing (or rather, not dealing) with the OP deflection is the best they can hope for.

[Thunder]

And not the first one. When certain members are thoroughly demolished when dealing (or rather, not dealing) with the OP deflection is the best they can hope for.

indeed. these certain members tend to be right-wing Zionist extremists.

[quixotecoyote]

indeed. these certain members tend to be right-wing Zionist extremists.

And now parky starts a rousing game of "I know you are, but what am I?"

Let me know when he ups his game to "I am rubber and you are glue."

[Thunder]

And now parky starts a rousing game of "I know you are, but what am I?"


I'm sorry.....what??

[Brainster]

I think the word "liquidate" in Fatah's declaration was mistranslated. What they really meant was "share a liquid drink".

:D

[Thunder]

Hamas wants to kill all the Jews.
Fatah wants to kill all the Jews.
Israel wants to kick all the Muslims out of Palestine.

..whatever.

[WildCat]

Hamas wants to kill all the Jews.
Fatah wants to kill all the Jews.
Israel wants to kick all the Muslims out of Palestine.

..whatever.
No one here claimed Fatah wants to kill all Jews, only to destroy Israel. As for "Israel wants to kick all the Muslims out of Palestine" can you link to the official Israeli statement to that effect?

[quixotecoyote]

No one here claimed Fatah wants to kill all Jews, only to destroy Israel.

Actually, Skeptic got a little carried away earlier. I bet if you asked him to reconsider, he'd say that while he suspects Fatah would like to kill the Jews, they've only committed to destroying Israel.

[Thunder]

No one here claimed Fatah wants to kill all Jews,

hmmm...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5396544#post5396544

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5401337#post5401337

"The Palestinians, OTOH, have in fact written down their goal of destroying Israel and exterminating the Jews."

ouch. that's gotta sting.

:D:D:p

[WildCat]

hmmm...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5396544#post5396544

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5401337#post5401337

"The Palestinians, OTOH, have in fact written down their goal of destroying Israel and exterminating the Jews."

ouch. that's gotta sting.

:D:D:p
The ones elected in Gaza certainly have.

You seem to have forgotten this parky:
As for "Israel wants to kick all the Muslims out of Palestine" can you link to the official Israeli statement to that effect?
Got a cite for that?

[quixotecoyote]

hmmm...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5396544#post5396544

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5401337#post5401337

"The Palestinians, OTOH, have in fact written down their goal of destroying Israel and exterminating the Jews."

ouch. that's gotta sting.

:D:D:p


Good lord. You fail even when your lines are handed to you.

Your first link refers to the destruction of Israel, exactly as Wildcat said.

Your second refers to Palestinians, not Fatah, and in fact went on to name Hamas after your snip.

This is especially pathetic as Skeptic actually did get worked up and overstate the situation in post 65, so not only is your quote-mining lame, dishonest, and an overall failure; it was actually unneccesary in this case.

[Thunder]

Good lord. You fail even when your lines are handed to you.

Your first link refers to the destruction of Israel, exactly as Wildcat said.

"Yes, they said they want to destroy Israel utterly and kill or expel all the Jews"

reading is fundamental. try it sometime. or learn how.

wow..that has really...really...got to hurt!!!!!

[quixotecoyote]

"Yes, they said they want to destroy Israel utterly and kill or expel all the Jews"

reading is fundamental. try it sometime. or learn how.

Context is fundamental. Please try it while you're reading sometime.

Or to spell it out, guess what you have to do to destroy Israel, aka the place where the Jews live.

[Thunder]

Context is fundamental. Please try it while you're reading sometime.

ouch man...do you want something for that sting???

:D:p

[tyr_13]

"Yes, they said they want to destroy Israel utterly and kill or expel all the Jews"

reading is fundamental. try it sometime. or learn how.

wow..that has really...really...got to hurt!!!!!

I don't think you're helping your case....

[quixotecoyote]

ouch man...do you want something for that sting???

:D:p

Nah, I'll just remind you about Hamas's plans to commit genocide and your laughter at the thought will mend all wounds.

I don't think you're helping your case....

Yeah, I could have gone with "or expel" and I probably should have. I guess I'm just happy he's not spouting non-sequitor nazi accusations anymore.

[Thunder]

Nah, I'll just remind you about Hamas's plans to commit genocide

Hamas does not seek to murder every Jew in Israel.

[tyr_13]

Hamas does not seek to murder every Jew in Israel.

Correct. They want to murder all Jews everywhere. Oh, or is that only an allegory? Like in the Bible?

[Thunder]

Correct. They want to murder all Jews everywhere.

total lie. and you know it.

thousands of Hamas supporters in the UK, USA, and Canada.

not ONE single Hamas operation against Jews in these countries. Not even against right-wing extremist Jews.

why? cause they do NOT seek to kill Jews outside of Israel, let alone all Jews in Israel.

[Thunder]

Yeah, I could have gone with "or expel" and I probably should have. I guess I'm just happy he's not spouting non-sequitor nazi accusations anymore.

nice. accuse a Jew of spouting Nazi ideas.

very nice.

you know, it is very anti-Semitic to accuse Jews of being like the Nazis.

[mortimer]

total lie. and you know it.

thousands of Hamas supporters in the UK, USA, and Canada.

not ONE single Hamas operation against Jews in these countries. Not even against right-wing extremist Jews.

why? cause they do NOT seek to kill Jews outside of Israel, let alone all Jews in Israel.
1940's. Thousands of Nazi supporters in the UK, USA, and Canada. Not ONE single Nazi operation against Jews in these countries.

Why? Because the Nazis did not seek to kill Jews outside of Europe, let alone all Jews in Europe, right Parky?

[Thunder]

1940's. Thousands of Nazi supporters in the UK, USA, and Canada. Not ONE single Nazi operation against Jews in these countries.


we are not talking about Nazis. We are talking about Hamas.

please learn to follow along.

:p:p:p:p:p

[tyr_13]

total lie. and you know it.

thousands of Hamas supporters in the UK, USA, and Canada.

not ONE single Hamas operation against Jews in these countries. Not even against right-wing extremist Jews.

why? cause they do NOT seek to kill Jews outside of Israel, let alone all Jews in Israel.

Oh I don't think supporters are bound by the Hamas charter. It is simply not evidence about the goals of Hamas. Their actions and charter do seem to support the fact that they do want to kill all the Jews.

Your arguments to the contrary have been regulated to denial, deflection, derails, moral equivalency, and other logical fallacies.

Why is this so difficult for you? It is what they want. They spell it out. No, I don't think all their supporters want that, any more than I think all of Israel's supporters want illegal settlement construction.

Thousands of Israel supporters in the US, UK, and Canada, and none of them are constructing illegal settlements in Gaza.

[Thunder]

Thousands of Israel supporters in the US, UK, and Canada, and none of them are constructing illegal settlements in Gaza.

No, but they do donate money to build illegal settlements in the WB.

:D

Hamas supporters do not attack Jews outside of Israel, because they have been ordered as such. Hamas has said again and again, that they do not seek to attack their enemy outside of Palestine..and they have stood by this promise.

[lionking]

Parky, you must know that I can't be the only one to find your use of smilies when commenting on nazism and killing repellent.

[Thunder]

Parky, you must know that I can't be the only one to find your use of smilies when commenting on nazism and killing repellent.

suck it up

[lionking]

suck it up
And maintain your current credibility.

[Thunder]

And maintain your current credibility.

dude, as far as I am concerned, you can just put me on ignore. I feel no need for you to read my posts..nor would I shed a tear if I never heard from you again.

:)

[tyr_13]

No, but they do donate money to build illegal settlements in the WB.

:D

Hamas supporters do not attack Jews outside of Israel, because they have been ordered as such. Hamas has said again and again, that they do not seek to attack their enemy outside of Palestine..and they have stood by this promise.

Please cite this order. Besides, I believe it has more to do with the instant loss of international support that drives this policy than any real desire to not kill all the Jews. Continuing their terrorist activities in other countries might bring some unwanted attention to them.

If they don't really want to kill all the Jews, they should take it out of their charter. It really is that simple.

[a_unique_person]

No, I just tire of endless references to Chamberlains, Churchills and Quislings.

I don't accept that the Israeli/Gaza conflict can be fit into that profile, whether its comparisons of Palestinians/Palestian supporters or Israelis/Israel supporters (the comparisons are made with reference to both sides).

If I condemn the characterization of Israeli occupation policies as "nazi-esque" then to remain consistent I must also condemn the same mistake when applied to Palestinians.


Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Friday said that Israel must rein in settlers' 'brutal' actions, after assailants vandalized a mosque in the West Bank village of Yasuf, torching furniture and spraying Nazi slogans in Hebrew on the premises.


:confused:

[Thunder]

If they don't really want to kill all the Jews, they should take it out of their charter. It really is that simple.

you are quite aware, that the Hamas charter does not call for the murder of the Jews of the Earth.

quite aware indeed.

clearly, right-wing extremist Zionist is infected with lies and deceit.

[TriskettheKid]

you are quite aware, that the Hamas charter does not call for the murder of the Jews of the Earth.

quite aware indeed.

clearly, right-wing extremist Zionist is infected with lies and deceit.

What does it call for?

[a_unique_person]

you are quite aware, that the Hamas charter does not call for the murder of the Jews of the Earth.

quite aware indeed.

clearly, right-wing extremist Zionist is infected with lies and deceit.

All people are people. You just hope everyone comes to their senses on both sides sooner rather than later. The sooner the better, less harm to all then. Wiping out zionism is no more a solution than wiping out palestinians.

[Skeptic]

It's clear you really don't understand much of anything, much less what I do and don't support.

You, OTOH, clearly support attacks on civilians.

Wellllllll, only civilians he (a) doesn't like, and who are (b) Jews.

And since when is supporting killing Jews one doesn't like a crime?

[Skeptic]

Actually, Skeptic got a little carried away earlier. I bet if you asked him to reconsider, he'd say that while he suspects Fatah would like to kill the Jews, they've only committed to destroying Israel.

As I said in a previous post, I said it's a distinction without a difference -- it's as if someone said he doesn't want to kill all blacks, only to re-establish slavery. It is bizarre that people see this as a point in order to defend Fatah. "They don't want you all dead, you liar! They just want to destroy your country and expel you all through ceaseless terrorist attacks! They're MODERATES!"

[Skeptic]

Why is this so difficult for you? It is what they want. They spell it out.

And educate their children through TV shows advocating kids become suicide bomber.
And tell the public the holocaust was a lie.
And send thousands of rockets into Israel to kill whomever they can.
And numerous suicide bombers.
And...

...well, you get the idea.

P.S.

Of course the same argument can be used to "prove" nobody is ever guilty of anything. Ted Bundy, of all people, got offers of marriage from unbalanced women who thought he was innocent. Some 16-year-olds love dressing up in SS uniform in parties.

If the fact that not all Hamas sympathizers want to kill all Jews is proof they don't really want it, then similarly the fact that not all Ted Bundy fans thought he was guilty and not all Nazi fans hate the Jews means Bundy and Himmler were innocent.

[tyr_13]

you are quite aware, that the Hamas charter does not call for the murder of the Jews of the Earth.

quite aware indeed.

clearly, right-wing extremist Zionist is infected with lies and deceit.

Right wing extremist Zionist? Are you insane? I've criticized not only the illegal Israeli settlements, but other right wing saber rattling from Israel. I'm not 'right wing' by any stretch unless you count my stance on firearms as the only political issue worth counting.

[Skeptic]

What about the murder of folk bernadette?

If there was an internet in 1938, parky would keep whining, while defending the Nazis over their words and deeds during Kristallnacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht):

"But what about the murder of Ernst vom Rath? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_vom_Rath)"

H'm. Actually that's unfair to Goebbles' propaganda compared to Parky's excuses.

At least Goebbles used a murder by a Jew from that time as an excuse for his moral equivocation and claims that his terrorism is somehow "self defense".

Even the Nazis weren't so stupid as to claim Krtistallnacht was somehow OK because of a murder committed by a Jew 60 years before, back in the 1870s.

They might as well have burned down synagogues while their fanboys were shouting, "but what about Aaron Kosminski (http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/Kosminski_Aaron.html)"?

[a_unique_person]

If there was an internet in 1938, parky would keep whining, while defending the Nazis over their words and deeds during Kristallnacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht):

"But what about the murder of Ernst vom Rath? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_vom_Rath)"

Are you seriously comparing von Rath to Bernadotte?

[Skeptic]

No. It would be a fair comparison if the murder were from the same time as the Fatah's reaffirmation of its genocidal goals -- much like Kristallnacht was at the same time as the murder of vom Rath (whose death was used as the excuse).

Since, however, the "reply" to noting what Fatah's goals are in 2009 is that it is somehow reasonable since Jews once murdered a man in 1948 - 60 years earlier -- a more appropriate analogy, as I noted, would be to claim Kristallnacht is reasonable because, 50 years before that, some Jew might have been Jack the Ripper.

Now, got anything to say about the genocidal goals of the "moderates" you are supporting, or, as you put it, that have "bent over backwards for peace", as you said about Arafat? That's true, in a way: as Arafat said often, "peace for us means the destruction of Israel". Can't argue about him bending over for that.

Why do you support people whose explicit and oft-repeated goal is the destruction of the Jewish state by terrorism, AUP?

[Thunder]

Wiping out zionism is no more a solution than wiping out palestinians.

I am a Zionist...silly boy.

[Thunder]

No. It would be a fair comparison if the murder were from the same time as the Fatah's reaffirmation of its genocidal goals -- much like Kristallnacht was at the same time as the murder of vom Rath (whose death was used as the excuse).

The murder of Folk Bernadette was a criminal terrorist act. And Israel honors the murderers with a museum and a military ribbon. Why can't you simply recognize right-wing Jewish terrorism for what it is?

Is that sooo hard??? Are Jews INCAPABLE of terrorism?

Jeez Louizzze

[geni]

key words "at the time".

today, their is an annual ceremony to honor the event.
there is a Museum honoring the Irgun.


Then there are various honors for the stern gang.

[Thunder]

Then there are various honors for the stern gang.

some people consider accusations of Jewish terrorism...and Jewish racism...to be anti-Semitic.

they are either soooo arrogant that they refuse to believe that Jews can commit acts of terrorism and racism..

or they are such jerks, that they are playing the race card just to deflect legitimate accusations of terrorism and racism, cause they know that nobody likes to be called an anti-Semite, and may retract any accusations..no matter how valid, simply to get away from the anti-Semite label.

the fact remains, that right-wing Zionist terror groups, who committed acts of terror and murder in Palestine, are officially honored by Israel.

[WildCat]

some people consider accusations of Jewish terrorism...and Jewish racism...to be anti-Semitic.

they are either soooo arrogant that they refuse to believe that Jews can commit acts of terrorism and racism..

or they are such jerks, that they are playing the race card just to deflect legitimate accusations of terrorism and racism, cause they know that nobody likes to be called an anti-Semite, and may retract any accusations..no matter how valid, simply to get away from the anti-Semite label.

the fact remains, that right-wing Zionist terror groups, who committed acts of terror and murder in Palestine, are officially honored by Israel.
What does any of this have to do with Hamas' goal of genocide? Of Fatah calling for the destruction of Israel?

They're doing this in 2009 btw.

A man who murdered a busload of civilians - and the civilians were the target - is hailed as a hero by the "moderates".

And here you are excusing the murder of Israeli civilians, in fact supporting it.

Disgusting.

[Pardalis]

Since, however, the "reply" to noting what Fatah's goals are in 2009 is that it is somehow reasonable since Jews once murdered a man in 1948 - 60 years earlier -- a more appropriate analogy, as I noted, would be to claim Kristallnacht is reasonable because, 50 years before that, some Jew might have been Jack the Ripper.


That's why the word "Nakba" and celebrating the day is detrimental, it keeps the Palestinians resentful of Israel, it has fueled hatred for 60 years.

It's about keeping the hate alive by constantly reminding people of some injustice done to them a century ago.

Kind of like if the Acadians were an armed group, who kept celebrating and teaching their kids about the deportation to fuel terrorism against the English.

[Pardalis]

And educate their children through TV shows advocating kids become suicide bomber.
And tell the public the holocaust was a lie.
And send thousands of rockets into Israel to kill whomever they can.
And numerous suicide bombers.
And...

...well, you get the idea.


And in the mean time, what actual progressive and peaceful steps have they undertaken to make their new state a reality?

...

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/tumbleweed.gif


That's right. You leave out violence and hatred out of the equation, and there's nothing left to the Palestinian cause.

[Thunder]

A man who murdered a busload of civilians - and the civilians were the target - is hailed as a hero by the "moderates".
.

Israel annually honors the murder of innocent civilians at the King David Hotel.

Israel has a military ribbon, honoring the terrorists who killed Ambassador Folk Bernadette.

Israel has a museum dedicated to the Irgun, a terrorist organization.

seems like Israelis and Palestinians enjoy honoring terrorists and murderers.

I'll start criticizing the Palestinians for such activities when Israel stops theirs. Until then, whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

[WildCat]

Israel annually honors the murder of innocent civilians at the King David Hotel.

Israel has a military ribbon, honoring the terrorists who killed Ambassador Folk Bernadette.

Israel has a museum dedicated to the Irgun, a terrorist organization.

seems like Israelis and Palestinians enjoy honoring terrorists and murderers.
Can you link to the Israeli documents listing genocide as a goal?

Can you link to the Israeli documents calling for the destruction of Palestine?

I suspect that all you'll do is continue to rant about WWII-era atrocities which have nothing at all to do with the current situation. Oh yeah, and continue to support attacks on Israeli civilians.

Do you still think that Iran has a right to attack Israel?

[Thunder]

I suspect that all you'll do is continue to rant about WWII-era atrocities which have nothing at all to do with the current situation. Oh yeah, and continue to support attacks on Israeli civilians.

Any time someone points out the Palestinians honoring and celebrating terrorists, I will respond by showing how Israel does the EXACT same thing. Is this a problem for you?

Or would you prefer the Israeli celebration of its own terrorists be kept a little secret...hmmm?

As far as Plestinian attacks upon illegal Jewish settlers, I do not advocate for attacks upon them, but I also do not shed a tear if one does occur. I call it..passive acceptance. Kinda like when I did not shed a tear when the murderer of those four cops in Washington State got snuffed by a brave policeman. No tears from my eyes were shed.

[WildCat]

Any time someone points out the Palestinians honoring and celebrating terrorists, I will respond by showing how Israel does the EXACT same thing. Is this a problem for you?
Really? Most of your examples took place before Israel even existed. The one that didn't resulted in no injuries or deaths, nor was it intended to.

Or would you prefer the Israeli celebration of its own terrorists be kept a little secret...hmmm?How widespread in Israel is this "celebration" parky? From what I see the "celebrations" are widely condemned within Israel.

Where are the Palestinians condemning the bus attack?

As far as Plestinian attacks upon illegal Jewish settlers, I do not advocate for attacks upon them, but I also do not shed a tear if one does occur. I call it..passive acceptance. Kinda like when I did not shed a tear when the murderer of those four cops in Washington State got snuffed by a brave policeman. No tears from my eyes were shed.Wow. :jaw-dropp

Sickening.

[Thunder]

How widespread in Israel is this "celebration" parky? From what I see the "celebrations" are widely condemned within Israel.


there is an annual event celebrating the King David Hotel massacre. Netanyahu attended this year's events.

will you here and now condemn the annual honoring of this terrorist act?

will you here and now condemn the honoring of the Lehi terrorist group with a military ribbon?

will you here and now condemn the existance of a museum honoring the Irgun?

will you here and now condemn the certificates of appreciation given to the surviving conspirators of the Lavon Affair?

you honestly cannot expect me to condemn Palestinian acts of terror, if you refuse to condemn Israeli ones. that would make you kind of a hypocrite, yes?

[WildCat]

there is an annual event celebrating the King David Hotel massacre. Netanyahu attended this year's events.

will you here and now condemn the annual honoring of this terrorist act?

will you here and now condemn the honoring of the Lehi terrorist group with a military ribbon?

will you here and now condemn the existance of a museum honoring the Irgun?

will you here and now condemn the certificates of appreciation given to the surviving conspirators of the Lavon Affair?

you honestly cannot expect me to condemn Palestinian acts of terror, if you refuse to condemn Israeli ones. that would make you kind of a hypocrite, yes?
Haven't I already done so?

And what a better place it would be if the Palestinians would confine their attacks to vandalism such as the Lavon affair! Better a building suffers than people.

And once again, all except the Lavon Affair occurred before Israel even existed. May as well condemn the US government for the piracy employed by the revolutionaries. There's even a museum (http://www.patriotpirates.com/) about them!

There were atrocities on all sides in the years preceding the creation of Israel. It was a messy era globally, WWII made the world a chaotic and dangerous place that took quite a while to sort out.

Why don't you concentrate on the here and now, as opposed to what happened 60 years ago?

[Thunder]

There were atrocities on all sides in the years preceding the creation of Israel. It was a messy era globally, WWII made the world a chaotic and dangerous place that took quite a while to sort out.

Why don't you concentrate on the here and now, as opposed to what happened 60 years ago?

here and now...Israel celebrates and honors these terrorist groups, that killed innocent men, women, and children.

I'm waiting for you to condemn the terrorist actions of these groups, and Israel's current-day honoring of them.

Instead, you seem to be making excuses.

why the **** should the Palestinians stop honoring their shaheeds and other terrorists, when Israel refuses to stop honoring theirs?

[quixotecoyote]

You said:

are you a fan of the Nazis? do you believe that the Holocaust is a lie?

Then you dropped it so I said:

I guess I'm just happy he's not spouting non-sequitor nazi accusations anymore.

And now:

nice. accuse a Jew of spouting Nazi ideas.

very nice.

you know, it is very anti-Semitic to accuse Jews of being like the Nazis.

You just don't get tired of failing, do you?

[WildCat]

here and now...Israel celebrates and honors these terrorist groups, that killed innocent men, women, and children.

I'm waiting for you to condemn the terrorist actions of these groups, and Israel's current-day honoring of them.

Instead, you seem to be making excuses.

why the **** should the Palestinians stop honoring their shaheeds and other terrorists, when Israel refuses to stop honoring theirs?
You don't get it parky. Not only are the Palestinians celebrating recent terrorist attcks on civilians, they are encouraging more, and are indeed carrying out more. And in fact, you support the attacks on Israeli civilians.

I have never supported attacks on civilians and never will. Nor would I ever hail as a hero those who do or did.

And so desperate are you to find examples of Israeli (as opposed to pre-Israel Zionist militias) terrorism you include vandalism!

And this isn't about 60 years ago, it's about now. Nothing can change the past, so let's concentrate on the present. And in the present day, one of the 2 top Palestinian "political" groups openly advocates Jewish genocide, while the other openly advocates the destruction of Israel.

You can't find anything comparable in the Israeli government, can you? This is why you focus on events 60 years ago, before Israel even existed.

[Pardalis]

And so desperate are you to find examples of Israeli (as opposed to pre-Israel Zionist militias) terrorism you include vandalism!

Or wine tossing (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156410).

[Skeptic]

Parky, do you admit the obvious: that Fatah's and Hamas' goal, as they openly repeat and declare, the destruction of Israel?

Forget for a moment what the Jews do wrong or don't do wrong (and 60 years ago, at that). Let us have a clear yes or no answer here about Hamas and Fatah, please.

[Skeptic]

A short summary of the discussion in this thread so far...

--------------------------------------

Mr. Praline: I wish to make a complaint!

Owner: We're closin' for lunch.

Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this moderate Palestinian peace partner I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Fatah...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?

Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's calling for genocide and the destruction of its "peace" partner, that's what's wrong with it!

Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a genocidal organization when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Owner: No no he's not genocidally terrorist, he's, he's restin'! Remarkably moderate organization, the Fatah, idn'it, ay? Beautiful plumage!

Mr. Praline: The plumage don't enter into it. It's a terrorist organization calling for genocide.

Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!

Mr. Praline: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Fatah! I've got a lovely Palestinian state for you if you
show...

(owner hits the cage)

Owner: There, he moderated!

Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!

Owner: I never!!

Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!

Owner: I never, never did anything...

Mr. Praline: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO FATAH!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!

(Takes parrot out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)

Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a genocidal organization.

Owner: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!

Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?

Owner: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Fatah moderates stun easily, major.

Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That organization is definitely extremist, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of moderation was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.

Owner: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.

Mr. Praline: PININ' for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he call for Israel's destruction the moment it convened its general assembly?

Owner: The Fatah prefers convening its assemblies! Remarkable organization, id'nit, squire? Lovely plumage!

Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining that organization when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been calling for "peace" sitting on its perch in the first place was that it had been USING THAT FOR A COVER FOR TERRORIST ATTACKS, which increased hundred-fold since the "peace" process began.

(pause)

Owner: Well, o'course the attacks increased hundred fold there! If Fatah hadn't done its own attacks, it would have nuzzled up to those bars, bent 'em apart with its beak, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!

Mr. Praline: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this Fatah wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' extremist!

Owner: No no! 'E's moderate!

Mr. Praline: 'E's not moderate'! 'E's calling for genocide! Its moderation is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is Jihadi maker! 'E's a terroist! stiff! Bereft of moderation, 'e terrorizes! in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the peace process 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS A TERRORIST, EXTREMIST ORGANIZATION!!

(pause)

Owner: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh, we're right out of moderate Palestinian organizations.

Mr. Praline: I see. I see, I get the picture.

Owner: I got Hamas.

(pause)

Mr. Praline: Pray, is it moderate?

Owner: Nnnnot really.

Mr. Praline: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?

[geni]

Parky, do you admit the obvious: that Fatah's and Hamas' goal, as they openly repeat and declare, the destruction of Israel?
Hamas yes. Fatah well since that would kinda remove their main justification for existing I doubt it.

[WildCat]

Hamas yes. Fatah well since that would kinda remove their main justification for existing I doubt it.
It was deliberately left in the charter as recently as this August.

[quixotecoyote]

It was deliberately left in the charter as recently as this August.

Let's look at that again:


[is]Fatah's and Hamas' goal, as they openly repeat and declare, the destruction of Israel?
Fatah well since that would kinda remove their main justification for existing I doubt it.

Now think about what he just said.

The main justification for Fatah to exist is the destruction of Israel, therefore their goal cannot be the destruction of Israel.

[Thunder]

You don't get it parky. Not only are the Palestinians celebrating recent terrorist attcks on civilians, .

many of the Irgun's and Lehi's attacks were on civilians.

Folk Bernadette was a civilian.

Many of the people in the King David Hotel were civilians.

I see you refuse to condemn Zionist terrorist attacks on civilians. How very sad.

...How very unsurprising.

[Thunder]

Parky, do you admit the obvious: that Fatah's and Hamas' goal, as they openly repeat and declare, the destruction of Israel? .

Yes, I admit that Hamas' stated goal is the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state, in favor of an Islamic republic.

Fatah and the PLO accepted the State of Israel long ago. That is why they now argue for a state within the 1967 borders of the West Bank.

That is, unless you think Arab Muslims are not to be trusted.

[geni]

You don't get it parky. Not only are the Palestinians celebrating recent terrorist attcks on civilians, they are encouraging more, and are indeed carrying out more. And in fact, you support the attacks on Israeli civilians.

I have never supported attacks on civilians and never will. Nor would I ever hail as a hero those who do or did.

And so desperate are you to find examples of Israeli (as opposed to pre-Israel Zionist militias) terrorism you include vandalism!

Haganah which is generaly accepted to be the forunner of the IDF attacked the village of Balad es Sheik on the 31 December 1947 killing 14 people 10 of whome were women and children. FWIW Haganah where the moderates.


And this isn't about 60 years ago, it's about now. Nothing can change the past, so let's concentrate on the present. And in the present day, one of the 2 top Palestinian "political" groups openly advocates Jewish genocide, while the other openly advocates the destruction of Israel.

You can't find anything comparable in the Israeli government, can you? This is why you focus on events 60 years ago, before Israel even existed.

The various bits of the National Union before they split up would qualify.

[Thunder]

Haganah which is generaly accepted to be the forunner of the IDF attacked the village of Balad es Sheik on the 31 December 1947 killing 14 people 10 of whome were women and children. .

are you saying women and children can't be terrorists?

:p

please, refrain from accusing Jews of murder or terrorism. its anti-Semitic to do so. someone might call the ADL on you.

[geni]

Now think about what he just said.

The main justification for Fatah to exist is the destruction of Israel, therefore their goal cannot be the destruction of Israel.

No. The existance of isreal and resistance to it is the main justication for Fatah. If isreal ceased to exist tomorrow fatah wouldn't last much longer.

At this point Fatah's goals are:

1)keep hamas out of the west bank

2)keep the money coming in

3)try and get back gaza

[geni]

are you saying women and children can't be terrorists?

:p

please, refrain from accusing Jews of murder or terrorism. its anti-Semitic to do so. someone might call the ADL on you.

The actual term used at the time tended to be gansters since the 6 airborne division didn't like the implication that it could be terrified.

[Thunder]

clearly, the right-wing Zionists here are trying to tell us that Arab Muslims cannot be trusted.

[WildCat]

many of the Irgun's and Lehi's attacks were on civilians.

Folk Bernadette was a civilian.

Many of the people in the King David Hotel were civilians.

I see you refuse to condemn Zionist terrorist attacks on civilians. How very sad.

...How very unsurprising.
Dodge noted, you're asking the same questions which were already answered.

[WildCat]

Haganah which is generaly accepted to be the forunner of the IDF attacked the village of Balad es Sheik on the 31 December 1947 killing 14 people 10 of whome were women and children. FWIW Haganah where the moderates.
I could find many such atrocities by British forces, particularly in the WWII era. Therefore it's OK to kill busloads of British civilians in 2009?

The various bits of the National Union before they split up would qualify.Details please, with the above in mind.

[WildCat]

No. The existance of isreal and resistance to it is the main justication for Fatah. If isreal ceased to exist tomorrow fatah wouldn't last much longer.

At this point Fatah's goals are:

1)keep hamas out of the west bank

2)keep the money coming in

3)try and get back gaza
That's a short-term goal. Their long-term goal remains the destruction of Israel, no matter how you slice it.

[WildCat]

clearly, the right-wing Zionists here are trying to tell us that Arab Muslims cannot be trusted.
Clearly, parky is using WWII era incidents to justify attacks on Israeli civilians in 2009 and beyond.

Hamas has a written goal of Jewish genocide.

Fatah has a written goal of the destruction of Israel.

Please link to comparable Israeli written goals.

Can't do it? Oh, dear... :rolleyes:

[Thunder]

Hamas has a written goal of Jewish genocide.


Hamas has a goal of "liberating" all of Palestine. Some say that means ending the Jewish state and regime change into an Islamic state. Some say that means kicking all the Jews out of Palestine. Some say it means killing all the Jews in Palestine.

your guess is as good as mine....but I have never read that Hamas officially wants to kill every Jew on Earth, let alone in Palestine. it is simply one's biased and highly directed interpretation of Hamas writings, that lead one to believe such.

[WildCat]

Some say it means killing all the Jews in Palestine.
That "some" happens to be Hamas. And they don't confine it to Israel/Palestine, though that's likely where they'd start.

[Thunder]

That "some" happens to be Hamas. And they don't confine it to Israel/Palestine,

lie. total lie. and you know it.

[WildCat]

lie. total lie. and you know it.
D'Nile... not just a river in Egypt.

So do you think the "right-wing zionists" you see behind every bush wrote the Hamas Covenant?

[Thunder]

So do you think the "right-wing zionists" you see behind every bush wrote the Hamas Covenant?

just out of curiosity, I have to know. where you buy all of your straw? clearly you get it at wholesale prices.

:p

[WildCat]

just out of curiosity, I have to know. where you buy all of your straw? clearly you get it at wholesale prices.

:p
What's next parky, will you deny that the Hamas Covenant states the Protocols of The Elders of Zion is a factual manifesto of the Zionists?

[geni]

I could find many such atrocities by British forces, particularly in the WWII era. Therefore it's OK to kill busloads of British civilians in 2009?

Strangely the various people who want to blow up bus loads of brits don't tend to list our many imperial atrocities (WWII era wasn't too bad we were busy doing other stuff) as a justification. The Irish have been known to go on about Cromwell but he was before we really go going.


Details please, with the above in mind.

The National Union is/was (isreali politics is messy) made up of Moledet who want the arabs to leave the west bank, Eretz Yisrael Shelanu who want a greater isreal and Hatikva and Tkuma who's positions appear to only exist in hebrew.

[Thunder]

The National Union is/was (isreali politics is messy) made up of Moledet who want the arabs to leave the west bank, Eretz Yisrael Shelanu who want a greater isreal and Hatikva and Tkuma who's positions appear to only exist in hebrew.

SSShhhhh!!! we aren't supposed to let this kinda info out in English!!!

;)

[Thunder]

What's next parky, will you deny that the Hamas Covenant states the Protocols of The Elders of Zion is a factual manifesto of the Zionists?

no, I read that in the covenant. it is there. pretty pathetic.

but what is NOT there, is a call for the murder of all Jews on Earth, let alone in Palestine.

[WildCat]

Strangely the various people who want to blow up bus loads of brits don't tend to list our many imperial atrocities (WWII era wasn't too bad we were busy doing other stuff) as a justification. The Irish have been known to go on about Cromwell but he was before we really go going.
O come on now, Britain killed scads of civilians on 3 continents during WWII.

I don't see an Germans, Egyptians, Italians, Japanese, etc attacking buses in the UK in this age as a result.

The National Union is/was (isreali politics is messy) made up of Moledet who want the arabs to leave the west bank, Eretz Yisrael Shelanu who want a greater isreal and Hatikva and Tkuma who's positions appear to only exist in hebrew.
Ah, so it's a fringe group of kooks with little support.

[WildCat]

no, I read that in the covenant. it is there. pretty pathetic.

but what is NOT there, is a call for the murder of all Jews on Earth, let alone in Palestine.
So it doesn't say that Hamas exists to carry out God's will, immediately followed by a religious passage where God calls for Muslims to kill the Jews?

[Thunder]

O come on now, Britain killed scads of civilians on 3 continents during WWII.


there are no museums devoted to the SS in Germany.

there are no monuments devoted to British units convicted of war crimes.

and yet, Israel has a museum for the Irgun, a military ribbon for the Lehi, and an annual celebration of the King David Hotel massacre.

[Skeptic]

I note that Fatah declares in August 2009 its goal is the destruction of Israel, parky tells me ïn reply that they "accepted the existence of Israel long ago".

No they didn't, parky. Arafat repeatedly declared such acceptance was merely a trick in the "staged plan". Fatah's declaration in August 2009 verifies this.

[Thunder]

I note that Fatah declares in August 2009 its goal is the destruction of Israel, parky tells me ïn reply that they "accepted the existence of Israel long ago".
.

the PA Legislature voted to accept the state of Israel. Fatah calls for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

you can stop the lies now.

[tyr_13]

the PA Legislature voted to accept the state of Israel. Fatah calls for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

you can stop the lies now.

They also call for the liquidation of Israel. Yes, they send mixed messages, but that doesn't make it a lie to point out that yes, in 2009 they said they wanted to destroy Israel.

Both Fatah and Hamas say an absolute ton of contradictory stuff. It isn't a lie to say what they've said. I guess you believe Time, and all the other media are lying when they report on this stuff and the only things you believe Fatah says are things you want them to have said. This sort of selective hearing is exactly what these groups want, and yet you blame 'extreme right wing Zionism' for any and all 'confusion' regarding any questions in the this conflict.

Your tu quoque is getting very warn out as well.

[mortimer]

the PA Legislature voted to accept the state of Israel. Fatah calls for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

you can stop the lies now.
Source, please. At least one senior Fatah leader disagrees (http://therealist.net/2009/03/18/senior-fatah-leader-says-does-not-recognize-israel/) with you.

[Thunder]

Source, please. At least one senior Fatah leader disagrees (http://therealist.net/2009/03/18/senior-fatah-leader-says-does-not-recognize-israel/) with you.

this happened in the 1990s. don't you remember all the hub-bub, when the legislators stood up to show their votes were to be counted?

[Skeptic]

Source, please. At least one senior Fatah leader disagrees (http://therealist.net/2009/03/18/senior-fatah-leader-says-does-not-recognize-israel/) with you.

So does Palestinian Television (http://www.pmw.org.il/specrep-30.html) and Yasser Arafat (http://www.iris.org.il/quotes/stockhlm.htm) and Fatah's meetings (http://www.onejerusalem.org/2009/08/until-the-zionist-entity-is-wi.php) and the high school graduation ceremonies (http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=1226) and numerous maps (http://palwatch.org/pages/allmaps.aspx) and the the head of Fatah in Lebanon (http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/259/0/2210.htm) and the PA's ambassador to Lebanon (http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/06/palestinian_ambassador_the_two.php) and the...

...well, you get the idea.

[geni]

Ah, so it's a fringe group of kooks with little support.

They have seats in the Knesset. That requires a certian degree of support. In addition isreali politics means that if you can get seats you will be too useful to someone to stay on the political fringe.

[gtc]

They have seats in the Knesset. That requires a certian degree of support. In addition isreali politics means that if you can get seats you will be too useful to someone to stay on the political fringe.

A whole 3.34% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Israel) of the vote.

The BNP received 6.2% (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/html/ukregion_999999.stm) of the vote in the UK (ex Northern Ireland) at the EU election using the same method as Israel.

[Skeptic]

I should note that all the three parties (Moledet, Ha'Tchiya, and Yisrael Shelanu) joined forced for the election, and got three seats together, in a unified list. Not exactly a sparkling electoral success.

[bigjelmapro]

the PA Legislature voted to accept the state of Israel. Fatah calls for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

you can stop the lies now.
Nope. The PNC only voted to amend the PLO charter, which never happened in respect to to article 15, 19, and 22 in the charter. A letter signed by Arafat on September 9, 1993 to Clinton said they were going to amend these articles.

Nothing happened.

The 1994 Cairo agreement reiterated these requirements to amend the PLO charter.

Nothing happened.

The 1995 Oslo II intermin agreement reiterated these same requirements.

Nothing happened.

In April 24, 1996, the PNC convened again, voted on these requirements to make these amendments. They agreed to amend it, although this time, the articles to be amended were not specified in the PNC meeting.

Nothing happened.

1997 Hebron Agreement, charter amendments yet again, no specification though, again.

Nothing happened.

Right after the 1997 Hebron agreement, both Arafat and the PNC claimed they were in compliance with the PNC vote in 1996 (although nothing was specified to be changed/amended) and yet, nothing happened.

This is confirmed by:


PNC Chairman, Salim Za'anoun, stated on February 3, 2001, in the official Palestinian Authority newspaper, that the Palestinian Covenant remained unchanged and was still in force [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 3 February 2001]


Former CIA Director James Woolsey said:


Arafat has been like Lucy with the football, treating the rest of the world as Charlie Brown. He and the PNC keep telling everyone they've changed the charter, without actually changing it.


Fast-forward to 2009, no more calls for amendments to any articles by Fatah backtracking on all agreements approaching 2 decades

And here's a video of Fatah's top ranking Muhammed Dahlan speaking on behalf of Fatah:

Fatah still refuses to recognize Israel, 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTQ5CNYLoXE)

So how much evidence do you need to finally wake you up from this (yet, another) fantasy....

[Thunder]

So how much evidence do you need to finally wake you up from this (yet, another) fantasy....

:):p;):D

[bigjelmapro]

And that would mean what Parky?

[Thunder]

And that would mean what Parky?

eh?

[bigjelmapro]

Ah, ok. So another thread where you pretend that posts don't exist. Respond to #177 or I'll consider your assertion that the PNC/Fatah accepts Israel's existence as null and void.

[Thunder]

Ah, ok. So another thread where you pretend that posts don't exist. Respond to #177 or I'll consider your assertion that the PNC/Fatah accepts Israel's existence as null and void.

you can stop trolling now.

[bigjelmapro]

Look up the definition of trolling. You're misusing this as well. Reply to #177.

[WildCat]

Breach of Membership Agreement removed.

[Skeptic]

It's even worse than one thinks. Read "Beyond Mere Hatred (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260894117145&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)" in the JPost. Let's hope they're wrong.

[Skeptic]

By the way, some more about Hamas: "Time Flies when You're Spilling Blood (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260447441023&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)".

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, I'm sure they will "moderate" the moment Israel gives them what they want.

[Thunder]

It's even worse than one thinks. Read "Beyond Mere Hatred (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260894117145&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)" in the JPost. Let's hope they're wrong.

stop demolishing their homes. stop building on their land. stop stripping them of their permanent residency status. stop confiscating their farms.

then maybe, after a decade or so, they will stop hating you.

you know, its beyond funny, that some right-wing Zionists simply refuse to comprehend the idea that their actions might be somewhat responsible for Palestinian hatred of Israel.

[theprestige]

stop demolishing their homes. stop building on their land. stop stripping them of their permanent residency status. stop confiscating their farms.

then maybe, after a decade or so, they will stop hating you.

you know, its beyond funny, that some right-wing Zionists simply refuse to comprehend the idea that their actions might be somewhat responsible for Palestinian hatred of Israel.
It seems kind of strange to start in on why Palestinians hate Israel when you still haven't admitted that the hatred even exists to begin with.

[Skeptic]

stop demolishing their homes. stop building on their land. stop stripping them of their permanent residency status. stop confiscating their farms.

then maybe, after a decade or so, they will stop hating youNot likely. Arab hatred of Israel and the Jews and the desire to destroy them had been around long before 1967, indeed long before 1948 -- not to mention that both those wars were started by an Arab attempt to genocide the Jews.

Haj Amin Al Husseini, the father of Palestinian nationalism, raised Arab troops for Hitler long before any such things. And he didn't stop hating "a decade later", or ever, for that matter. Tel Hai was attacked in 1919. Hebron's Jews were massacred in the 1920s. The entire Jewish population of Palestine was on target in the so-called "Arab revolt" of the 1930s. All this without "the occupation", or even the state of Israel, existing.

Besides, the Palestinians (as the article I quoted a few posts above) are doing their absolute best to keep the hatred going as much as possible no matter what Israel does. What's more, anything Israel did do to try and reach just such a reduction in hatred -- getting out of much of the WB during the Oslo agreement, getting out of Gaza -- only ended up in the hate-mongering Palestinian leadership shouting that Israel is weakening, and that the hatred must be kept up in a fever pitch until final victory.

It's not to say that Israel is perfect, or that doing things to help the Palestinians are useless. But the core of the hatred is simply because the Jews are Jews.

[Thunder]

Not likely. Arab hatred of Israel and the Jews and the desire to destroy them had been around long before 1967, indeed long before 1948 -- not to mention that both those wars were started by an Arab attempt to genocide the Jews. .

so let me get this straight: in 1948, the Arab armies invaded Palestine because they wanted to commit genocide against the Jews. They lost the war. Meanwhile, thousands of Jews continued to live in Arab lands through the 1960s.

that's one strange attempt at genocide, wouldn't you say?

[Thunder]

It seems kind of strange to start in on why Palestinians hate Israel when you still haven't admitted that the hatred even exists to begin with.

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"

-David Ben-Gurion

[Skeptic]

so let me get this straight: in 1948, the Arab armies invaded Palestine because they wanted to commit genocide against the Jews. They lost the war. Meanwhile, thousands of Jews continued to live in Arab lands through the 1960s.

Not exactly. As can be seen by this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands), to name one, the number of Jews expelled or forced out of the Arab lands was in the hundreds of thousands and millions -- that a tiny remnant, a few tens of thousands, still remains there is hardly shows the intent wasn't to expel or kill them.

You as usual set ridiculous standards of proof. Apparently, unless ALL Jews were INSTANTLY killed EVERYWHERE in the Arab world, then there was no intention on part of the Arab world to destroy Israel and butcher the Jews there.

Never mind their own declarations, statements, and actions everywhere they did manage to catch the Jews. All that doesn't count. As long as some Jews managed to survive nevertheless, the very survival of 1% or so of the original Jewish population is proof the Arabs never meant them any harm.

By your own standard, again, Hitler never really planned to kill the Jews. Why, there were still Jews in Berlin in 1943! Some actually survived the war! What's all this fuss about genocide, when he missed some of them?

[Thunder]

By your own standard, again, Hitler never really planned to kill the Jews. Why, there were still Jews in Berlin in 1943! Some actually survived the war! What's all this fuss about genocide, when he missed some of them?

the Godwining never ends huh?

:p:D

[theprestige]

parky76, what do the opinions of David Ben Gurion have to do with Fatah's stated policy for the destruction of Israel?

[Thunder]

parky76, what do the opinions of David Ben Gurion have to do with Fatah's stated policy for the destruction of Israel?

David Ben-Gurion, former PM of Israel and founding father, seemed to understand why Arabs would hate Israel and would want to destroy Israel....or at least not accept Israel. Perhaps you can too.

[Skeptic]

Well, it changed the subject.

[Thunder]

Not exactly. As can be seen by this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands), to name one, the number of Jews expelled or forced out of the Arab lands was in the hundreds of thousands and millions --

millions huh?

lolololol

[Skeptic]

Hm, let us see:

A table (http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees4.htm) down this page shows:

Total number of Jews in Arab world in 1948 -- ca. 860,000
" " " " " " " " 1968 -- ca. 70,000
" " " " " " " " 2001 -- ca. 8,000

With by far the largest reduction in 1948-1968, of ca. 790,000 people leaving -- clearly, as a result of Arab rage over Israel's creation making their lives unbearable.

That's quite close to a million, n'est ce-pas?

An "ethnic cleansing" far more complete and sustainable and consistent that anything Israel even falsely accused of, let alone did. But not only are you not outraged, you belittle and dismiss it. This is moral bankruptcy on your part.

[Thunder]

Skeptic- last time I checked, "millions" was a plural word. As in more then 1 million.

[Skeptic]

Fine. "almost a million".

Care to comment on the substance of my post?

Why have you totally ignored this ethnic cleansing?

Why do you care not at all about it?

[Thunder]

Fine. "almost a million".

Care to comment on the substance of my post?

Why have you totally ignored this ethnic cleansing?

Why do you care not at all about it?

what is the subject of this thread again?

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused:

[theprestige]

what is the subject of this thread again?
The subject of this thread is Fatah's declared goal: the destruction of Israel.

Do you now, after several pages of denying that this is Fatah's declared goal, now not only admit that Fatah has declared a goal of destroying Israel, but also believe that Fatah is justified in declaring such a goal?

[Thunder]

Do you now, after several pages of denying that this is Fatah's declared goal, now not only admit that Fatah has declared a goal of destroying Israel, but also believe that Fatah is justified in declaring such a goal?

nope

[daenku32]

You know, you can oppose the formation of Israel without advocating genocide.

Personally, for the record, I recognize Israel. And anyone who ever decides that citizenship or fully equal status should involve the person's religion, is wrong.

But if a peaceful Palestinian who doesn't aspire to kill or even hurt a single Jew is against the way Israel was created, then that's just their political POV. I hardly consider it a sacred cow to claim that formation of Israel wasn't done justly.

[Thunder]

But if a peaceful Palestinian who doesn't aspire to kill or even hurt a single Jew is against the way Israel was created, then that's just their political POV. I hardly consider it a sacred cow to claim that formation of Israel wasn't done justly.

"oh, so Jews don't have the right to self-determination in their homeland? Jews should just live like slaves at the behest of their Muslim and Christian hosts, praying that they don't get slaughtered again?"

:)

[Skeptic]

daneku, you certainly have a point about it being possible to think Israel should not have been created as opposed to thinking the Jews should be genocided.

There are, however, two problems:

1). Many people (not all) use their disagreement about Israel's creation merely as a tool, whose purpose is to deligitimize Israel's existence in order to make it acceptable to public opinion to destroy it.

2). The Jews accepted a Palestinian state in 1947. It was the Arabs who started a war to genocide them, and the lack of a current Palestinian state is due to that refusal. When you "how Israel was created", you are in fact opposing the Arab attempt to genocide the Jews in 1948.

[Skeptic]

nope

So you deny their own covenant... and their own leaders' repeated claims... and their textbooks... and their speeches... and their television... and their newspapers... and their repeated terrorist attacks... and their numerous explanations that this is their goal in numerous place.... at least a dozen or so examples of which -- hundreds could easily be found -- were posted in this very thread.

You simply say "no it isn't". You never deal with the evidence.

Why?

[Thunder]

So you deny their own covenant

um....no i don't. i read the thing....twice.

[WildCat]

So you deny their own covenant... and their own leaders' repeated claims... and their textbooks... and their speeches... and their television... and their newspapers... and their repeated terrorist attacks... and their numerous explanations that this is their goal in numerous place.... at least a dozen or so examples of which -- hundreds could easily be found -- were posted in this very thread.

You simply say "no it isn't". You never deal with the evidence.

Why?
Some people look at the Pentagon on 9/11 and say no plane crashed there, some people look at the Hamas covenant and say it's a document for the peaceful creation of Hamastan.

It's a triumph of fantasy over reality.

[Thunder]

Some people look at the Pentagon on 9/11 and say no plane crashed there, some people look at the Hamas covenant and say it's a document for the peaceful creation of Hamastan.


oohh!!

a false comparison....AND a strawman!!! that's two for the price of one Wildcat!! :D

now lets get off the topic of Parky76, before this whole thing gets sent to AAH. ok?

[mortimer]

oohh!!

a false comparison....AND a strawman!!! that's two for the price of one Wildcat!! :D

now lets get off the topic of Parky76, before this whole thing gets sent to AAH. ok?
Methinks you need to learn what constitutes a strawman argument.

[daenku32]

Some people look at the Pentagon on 9/11 and say no plane crashed there, some people look at the Hamas covenant and say it's a document for the peaceful creation of Hamastan.

It's a triumph of fantasy over reality.

And some people look at Hamas and confuse them with Fatah.

You are never going to reach a peace agreement as long as people continue to mix the extremists with the moderates.

[Thunder]

And some people look at Hamas and confuse them with Fatah.


"all Arab Muslims are Jew-hating Nazis. didn't you know that?"

:(

[Praktik]

And some people look at Hamas and confuse them with Fatah.

You are never going to reach a peace agreement as long as people continue to mix the extremists with the moderates.

Who does that?

I'm aware of people with a grasp of reality who understand that there's a mix of extremists and moderates within Hamas - and I'm also aware of those gripped by a Manichaean view of Hamas who deny that moderates could exist at all in the organization.

Haven't seen anyone ever say that Hamas = Fatah though, where have you?

[Thunder]

how many times does Fatah have to argue for the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, alongside Israel, before some folks will let go of their silly dream that Fatah seeks to destroy Israel?

me thinks there is an alterior motive for some folks to deny an imperfect yet present peace partner when they have one.

[mortimer]

"all Arab Muslims are Jew-hating Nazis. didn't you know that?"

:(
Who are you quoting?

[gtc]

Fatah may be willing to accept a two state solution but their actions and their declaration of goals, etc are sending out mixed messages. Sure it may just be bluster aimed at their domestic audience but I would find it very hard to trust a party when it comes to negotiation or meeting commintments if that party was sending out those sorts of mixed messages.

[mortimer]

how many times does Fatah have to argue for the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, alongside Israel, before some folks will let go of their silly dream that Fatah seeks to destroy Israel?

me thinks there is an alterior motive for some folks to deny an imperfect yet present peace partner when they have one.
If Fatah is interested in a Palestinian state and peace, maybe they ought to get their butts back to the bargaining table instead of passing resolutions to block negotiations with "silly" preconditions like releasing every single Palestinian from Israeli jails.

[Thunder]

If Fatah is interested in a Palestinian state and peace, maybe they ought to get their butts back to the bargaining table instead of passing resolutions to block negotiations with "silly" preconditions like releasing every single Palestinian from Israeli jails.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580347,00.html

Hmm..that pre-condition appears to no longer exist.

[Thunder]

Who are you quoting?

I'm a mind reader. :)

[mortimer]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580347,00.html

Hmm..that pre-condition appears to no longer exist.
Abbas says so. I haven't seen that Fatah, the ruling party in the WB, has revoked those preconditions.

I am not familiar enough with the inner workings of the Palestinian Authority to know if Abbas can drop those preconditions without the approval of the legislature.

[mortimer]

I'm a mind reader. :)
So you made it up. Gotcha.

[daenku32]

Haven't seen anyone ever say that Hamas = Fatah though, where have you?

I'm pretty sure that the post I was replying to was. The thread is about Fatah, not Hamas.

[WildCat]

I'm pretty sure that the post I was replying to was. The thread is about Fatah, not Hamas.
I'm pretty sure I know the difference between Hamas and Fatah. And his thread has drifted to discussion of both.

[bigjelmapro]

nope

Refer to post : http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5410730&postcount=177

Can't wiggle yourself out of this one.

[Thunder]

Refer to post : http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5410730&postcount=177

Can't wiggle yourself out of this one.

why not?

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

Compare them to Nazis, that's a sign of rationality.




Yeah, why would anybody compare anti-semitic, anti-intellectual, mysogynistic gay-hating murderers to the Nazis? I'm at a loss here.

[Thunder]

Yeah, why would anybody compare anti-semitic, anti-intellectual, mysogynistic gay-hating murderers to the Nazis? I'm at a loss here.

only those who seek to commit genocide of an entire people should be compared to the Nazis, in my humble opinion.

and since Hamas does not seek to rid the world of Jews, it is an incorrect comparison.

there are Hamas supporters all over the world. in the USA, Canada, Britian, etc. and yet, these supporters never attack Jews in their countries. they only raise money for Hamas in Palestine.

if Hamas sought to kill all Jews, their members and supporters would attack Jews in every country where they are.

every country where Neo-Nazis exist, they attack Jews in one way or another. not so for Hamas.

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

only those who seek to commit genocide of an entire people should be compared to the Nazis, in my humble opinion.

and since Hamas does not seek to rid the world of Jews, it is an incorrect comparison.

This may come as a shock: killing jews was not the only thing the Nazis did :jaw-dropp
But I do see your point :)

[Thunder]

This may come as a shock: killing jews was not the only thing the Nazis did :jaw-dropp
But I do see your point :)

yeah, they also harrassed Jews, beat up Jews, torched their stores and synagogues, etc.

and yet, no Hamas members or supporters have done such things outside of Israel. how can this be?

if Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth, why don't they attack Jews in the New York City, New Jersey, Los Angeles, Detroit, and Boston?

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

yeah, they also harrassed Jews, beat up Jews, torched their stores and synagogues, etc.

and yet, no Hamas members or supporters have done such things outside of Israel. how can this be?

if Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth, why don't they attack Jews in the New York City, New Jersey, Los Angeles, Detroit, and Boston?

Look at the things beside "anti-semitic" in my post. They are, IMHO, like the Nazis, brutal crusaders for bigotry and stupidity with a well oiled propaganda- and indoctrination-machine. Hence the comparison.
This may be off-topic, though :)

[mortimer]

yeah, they also harrassed Jews, beat up Jews, torched their stores and synagogues, etc.

and yet, no Hamas members or supporters have done such things outside of Israel. how can this be?

if Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth, why don't they attack Jews in the New York City, New Jersey, Los Angeles, Detroit, and Boston?
Well, for one, Hamas is not terribly good at what they seek to do.

For another, their forces and resources are concentrated right next to, by far, the most target-rich environment there is.

Incompetence should not be confused for intent.

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

yeah, they also harrassed Jews, beat up Jews, torched their stores and synagogues, etc.

and yet, no Hamas members or supporters have done such things outside of Israel. how can this be?

if Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth, why don't they attack Jews in the New York City, New Jersey, Los Angeles, Detroit, and Boston?

Not everything that's wrong about the Arab/muslim world has to do with the jews - hence, again, the comparison. Still OT, I guess though.

[bigjelmapro]

why not?
In reference to your post:


the PA Legislature voted to accept the state of Israel. Fatah calls for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

you can stop the lies now.

My response pointing out your farce here: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5410730&postcount=177

You can keep ignoring this and posting the same drivel that the PNC and Fatah accepted Israel and amended their charter which calls for Israel's destruction, but it simply isn't the case.

Respond or cease with the fallacious statements.

[bigjelmapro]

the Godwining never ends huh?

Wow, even this law you seem to misunderstand and thus misuse. Its not a fallacy and Skeptic didn't use an example that fits the definition of Godwin's law.

If I somehow misunderstood you here, explain your application of said law.

[Thunder]

Well, for one, Hamas is not terribly good at what they seek to do.

Incompetence should not be confused for intent.

I politely disagree. I firmly believe that if Hamas gave the order today, for its members and supporters to start attacking Jewish and Israeli targets outside of Israel, **** would start blowing up by next Shabbos.

I think you highly underestimate Hamas' popularity, ability, AND command-control structure.

[WildCat]

yeah, they also harrassed Jews, beat up Jews, torched their stores and synagogues, etc.

and yet, no Hamas members or supporters have done such things outside of Israel. how can this be?

if Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth, why don't they attack Jews in the New York City, New Jersey, Los Angeles, Detroit, and Boston?
How many Jews were murdered in the United States by American Nazis during Hitler's rule in Germany?

I guess that means that the Nazis didn't intend to kill all the world's Jews! :rolleyes:

[Skeptic]

What's disgusting about this is that we are having this argument as if it matters. "Hamas does not want to kill all the Jews on the planet! Only a few million expendable Jews in Israel! How DARE you defame it!"

[mortimer]

I think you highly underestimate Hamas' popularity, ability, AND command-control structure.
I doubt it. They are apparently somewhat popular in Gaza, having received a little over half of the vote in the last election. They haven't shown an ability to do anything whatsoever for the Gazans. Care to provide any evidence of a command-control structure beyond the ability to take over an impoverished people in a bloody coup?

[Skeptic]

For Parky, they Jews' mere survival is "evidence" that Hamas doesn't want to kill them. To convince him, they better die, or else they are just whining.

[WildCat]

For Parky, they Jews' mere survival is "evidence" that Hamas doesn't want to kill them. To convince him, they better die, or else they are just whining.
But if a single Jew manages to survive parky will claim victory.

[Skeptic]

Well, I'm still breathing. Temporarily. I guess parky wins the argument.

[Thunder]

How many Jews were murdered in the United States by American Nazis during Hitler's rule in Germany?

I guess that means that the Nazis didn't intend to kill all the world's Jews! :rolleyes:

wherever there are Neo-Nazis, they attack and harrass Jews. Nazis were a lot more cunning. They waited till they had power and influence, and THEN they attacked.

[Thunder]

For Parky, they Jews' mere survival is "evidence" that Hamas doesn't want to kill them. To convince him, they better die, or else they are just whining.

ooh....a strawman!!!

[Thunder]

I politely disagree. I firmly believe that if Hamas gave the order today, for its members and supporters to start attacking Jewish and Israeli targets outside of Israel, **** would start blowing up by next Shabbos.

I think you highly underestimate Hamas' popularity, ability, AND command-control structure.

please re-read. it is very clear to me that Hamas has made a tactical decision NOT to target Jews outside of Israel.

[bigjelmapro]

Yet again, I'll bring it up.

In reference to your post:

My response pointing out your farce here: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5410730&postcount=177

You can keep ignoring this and posting the same drivel that the PNC and Fatah accepted Israel and amended their charter which calls for Israel's destruction, but it simply isn't the case.

You going to respond to this? I'll keep bringing it up otherwise.

[The Fool]

Yet again, I'll bring it up.

In reference to your post:

My response pointing out your farce here: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5410730&postcount=177

You can keep ignoring this and posting the same drivel that the PNC and Fatah accepted Israel and amended their charter which calls for Israel's destruction, but it simply isn't the case.

You going to respond to this? I'll keep bringing it up otherwise.

Its simply not the case? Or is is simply not the case in your opinion?

when did your opinion become fact?

The charter was amended...although some people such as you don't accept this on certain grounds...grounds like they didn't rewrite a new covenant....A bit like the fact that the US constitution has never been amended because a new one has not been written up....oops

you also site the case here different Fatah people have different opinions on what the amendments actually mean and what they do or do not negate...That would never happen with the US constitution would it....Everyone agrees exactly what it means....ooops.

but keep telling me that your opinion that it has not been amended makes it a fact....you may convince me..

The Likud charter has not been changed....it says that there will be no Palestinian state under any circumstances... So when Netanyahu talks of negotiations regarding a palestinian state he is.....he is....lying? Come on bigjel...tell us how this can be. Likud should tear up that charter shouldn't they...should write another one, obviously all talks of negotiation regarding a palestinian state coming from thier mouths is to be dismissed isn't it?

[Thunder]

Hamas has been in existance for HOW LONG?

and in all those years? how many Jews outside of Israel have they killed? how many synagogues have they attacked?

zero.

you say this means nothing. i say, this suggests that their current strategy is NOT to attack any Jews outside of Israel.

if they wanted to kill Jews outside of Israel, it would have happened long ago. clearly, this is not their current strategy or goal.

can this change? sure. but currently, it is not their strategy.

deal with it..and move on.

[tyr_13]

What did that amendment say?

[TriskettheKid]

Hamas has been in existance for HOW LONG?

and in all those years? how many Jews outside of Israel have they killed? how many synagogues have they attacked?

zero.

you say this means nothing. i say, this suggests that their current strategy is NOT to attack any Jews outside of Israel.

if they wanted to kill Jews outside of Israel, it would have happened long ago. clearly, this is not their current strategy or goal.

can this change? sure. but currently, it is not their strategy.

deal with it..and move on.

You're still harping on about this?

Face it. The Covenant calls for it.

Whether or not they have the force projection to accomplish it is an entirely different question.