View Full Version : Logical? Deism.
MRC_Hans
27th February 2003, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by wraith
No, because SHE has MORE INFO...and that info would be worthless in a random universe
Yes. Who talked about a random universe? Oh, wait! --- You did. The universe is not random, and it's not deterministic, it's probabilistic (thats in between, I know you have trouble grasping such a concept).
So are you saying that if I had no idea what "1 - 100" meant (no information) I would have "choosen" "33" anyway?
Thats what youre saying...
Uhh, didnt you say you understand English? I said you choose from the available options, which were 1-100. You had information about the possible range, but no information of which number WITHIN that range. What is it that's difficult to understand?
haha
my point exactly
What point?
Thats what youre saying!
Disagreeing with yourself now?
No.
no, it depended on TLOP/FATE
I was simply obey(sic) TLOP
There is no "free-will"
Well, you may blame it on tlop, but I think its because you did not do your homework.
Hans
Tricky
27th February 2003, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by wraith
Yeah Trix, I see coins flip themselves all the time :rolleyes:
OH BOY
The outcome IS based on the past...
Trix, YOU FLIPPED THE COIN!
Okay, I just flipped a coin. The present is based on the past. Did the coin come up heads or did it come up tails? Your contention is that the outcome was pre-determined. Prove it.
If you made a coin that was double headed, youre saying that it may land tails up.
You know I am saying no such thing. That is pitiful, wraith. You can do better.
Youve shot down nothing...
Im still waiting to see where you run red lights at "random"
Go search for it then. I'm not retyping all my evidence just so you can ignore it again.
without a double standard, how can you be more conscious than your car and TLOP?
You'll first have to give me evidence that TLOP are conscious. You have so far had a very bad record for providing evidence for this wild assertion. How many things without brains are conscious? I mean besides Franko.
Dam right it's well supported. Well supported with double standards and magic aka ******
You don't like the zygote to adult evidence? Well then tell me where the consciousness comes from instead of calling my evidence ****. This is why you get hammered in debates.
By the way, you live your whole life around this belief...I bet that you would be crushed if you found out that it was false :eek:
LOL. You won't even bet on the outcome of a coin flip that you claim is pre-determined. But if evididence showed my belief to be wrong, I would happily adjust or abandon it. Show me the evidence.
Self contradictory?
How do you figure?
Because we all have consciousness. If that consciousness can make matter, then where is all the matter our consciousnesses are making in violation of the laws of physics?
Or can only one consciousness make matter? One consciousness that you have given no evidence for?
Yeah, consciousness existing in timeless space? I dont think so.
Yet LD posits consciousness (The PS)existing without anything else. Consciousness with no matter to store information. Consciousness that is, by any definition, magic.
The PS ofcourse...
just how can consciousness exist without time and vice-versa?
Time measures the sequence of events. It need not have consciousness around for events to occur. Your preliminary assumption that there must always be a consciousness keeps you from examining any other possibilites. Why must there be consciousness? Because you can't imagine a universe without it? I'd say that has more to do with your lack of imagination than with the way the universe works.
E=mc^2
Youre perceiving energy!
There is no "hard stuff"
thats why I call it "dream matter"
It's like a dream for you, because you hate the idea of consciousness creatiing matter
So my question remains. Does dream matter exist for Logical Deists? If it is my "hatred" for your idea that makes it "dream matter, then you don't have it. Plug that back into your syllogism, and you wind up with a contradiction again.
They would be alive but they wouldnt be self-aware.
You said none of the senses would exist without consciousness. Protozoa can sense, yet they are not conscious. Busted again.
Youre describing a correlation...that doesnt imply that matter creates consciousness....
It is a great deal more evidence than you have given. Would you tell me again the mechanism for consciousness creating matter? Oh, and don't forget the evidence.
according to you, if a rock became more massive, it may one day be conscious?
Only if the matter it was adding was neural matter. I never said that ALL matter creates consciousness. (Oh yes. How many rocks do you know that actually get larger?)
OH
and whats this "graviton entering a human" business?
YOU ARE THE GRAVITON PERCEIVING THIS REALITY/UNIVERSE
Duh. By your mythology, gravitons are souls and each human has exactly one. How does this graviton/soul get associated with a particular human. (And shouting won't help your argument.)
or you could just answer the question :rolleyes:
Or you could ask a question that has something remotely to do with the topic at hand.D
No, to the LD there is only energy
So the LD does not and cannot affect the material world in any way? Well why didn't you say so in the first place?
Time....what else? ;)
(sigh)... Do we have to do this drill again? Okay, wraith. What created time?
Franko
27th February 2003, 08:40 AM
Tricky:
What created time?
Was Time created Tricky? If Time was created, then what was going on prior to it's creation -- a "Timeless period"? I thought you said there was no such thing?
How long did the "Timeless Period" last before Time was created?
Tricky
27th February 2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Was Time created Tricky? If Time was created, then what was going on prior to it's creation -- a "Timeless period"? I thought you said there was no such thing?
How long did the "Timeless Period" last before Time was created?
If time wasn't created then you are saying something can exist without a creator. If something can exist without a creator, why not the universe itself?
Franko
27th February 2003, 09:24 AM
I can perceive of the possibility of a Universe not existing, but I have a lot of trouble trying to comprehend how it could be even possible for Time not to exist.
Since you seem to disagree I am sure you can explain it to us?
Tricky
27th February 2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Franko
I can perceive of the possibility of a Universe not existing, but I have a lot of trouble trying to comprehend how it could be even possible for Time not to exist.
Since you seem to disagree I am sure you can explain it to us?
What, again? Well okay.
How is time marked? It is marked by the sequence of things happening. It might be the turning of watch gears, the vibration of an atomic nucleus, the rotation of the earth or any other event. But if the universe does not exist, then time means nothing. There is no sequence of events because there are no events. There is no anything.
Admittedly, it is a difficult concept. I'm not sure if I completely believe it and I know I don't completely understand it, but I can grasp the concept, the same way as I can grasp the concept of infinity. Just as I don't need to "envision eternity" to understand what it means, I don't need to envision a timeless state to know what it means.
Franko
27th February 2003, 11:41 AM
Franko:
I can perceive of the possibility of a Universe not existing, but I have a lot of trouble trying to comprehend how it could be even possible for Time not to exist.
Since you seem to disagree I am sure you can explain it to us?
Tricky:
What, again? Well okay.
How is time marked? It is marked by the sequence of things happening. It might be the turning of watch gears, the vibration of an atomic nucleus, the rotation of the earth or any other event. But if the universe does not exist, then time means nothing. There is no sequence of events because there are no events. There is no anything.
And how long (approximately) does this “no anything” last?
Admittedly, it is a difficult concept.
Special Pleads (logical fallacy) always are.
Tricky:
I'm not sure if I completely believe it and I know I don't completely understand it, but I can grasp the concept, the same way as I can grasp the concept of infinity. Just as I don't need to "envision eternity" to understand what it means, I don't need to envision a timeless state to know what it means.
I don’t think you know what a “Timeless Era” means, if you did then you could articulate exactly what it meant. You didn’t. All you did was make a special plead.
I doubt you truly comprehend “Infinity”, or “Eternity” either (not any better than he can draw a 4-sided triangle).
Explain infinity to us Trixy … What’s Infinity + 1?
Tricky
27th February 2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Franko
And how long (approximately) does this “no anything” last?
I dunno, we should have timed it with a stopwatch. Oops. Stopwatches didn't exist. Okay, let's time it by the movement of the stars. Oops, stars didn't exist. Okay, then let's time it by the increase in your intelligence. Well, that one still doesn't exist.
Originally posted by Franko
Special Pleads (logical fallacy) always are.
Especially to someone who knows the meaning of neither "special plead" nor "logical fallacy".
Originally posted by Franko
I don’t think you know what a “Timeless Era” means, if you did then you could articulate exactly what it meant. You didn’t. All you did was make a special plead.
I didn't say timeless era, I said timeless state, and I articulated exactly what it meant. Do not blame me because you are such a slow learner.
And again with the "special plead"? Why don't you tell us what you mean by that? I'm sure we're all anxious to know how The Lexicon twists the meaning of that term.
Franko
27th February 2003, 12:04 PM
Trixy: (scumbag A-Theist)
I dunno, we should have timed it with a stopwatch. Oops. Stopwatches didn't exist.
So unless stopwatches exist -- time doesn't exist?
Are clocks required for time to exist Trixy?
Okay, let's time it by the movement of the stars. Oops, stars didn't exist.
Ohhh, so "Stars" are required for Time to exist?
Okay, then let's time it by the increase in your intelligence. Well, that one still doesn't exist.
Perhaps that's because I'm only a figment of your imagination?
Maybe there is no universe Trixy? Maybe just YOU magically appeared and you are imagining it all? Why is that a less likely explanation?
wraith
28th February 2003, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Tricky
Okay, I just flipped a coin. The present is based on the past. Did the coin come up heads or did it come up tails? Your contention is that the outcome was pre-determined. Prove it.
Still claiming that the present is not based on the past?
You know I am saying no such thing. That is pitiful, wraith. You can do better..
Thats EXACTLY what youre saying.
The present is not based on the past.
You'll first have to give me evidence that TLOP are conscious. You have so far had a very bad record for providing evidence for this wild assertion. How many things without brains are conscious? I mean besides Franko.
CAR obeys ME obeys TLOP
it has been said multiple times ;)
You don't like the zygote to adult evidence? Well then tell me where the consciousness comes from instead of calling my evidence ****. This is why you get hammered in debates.
Why dont I like it?
LOL. You won't even bet on the outcome of a coin flip that you claim is pre-determined. But if evididence showed my belief to be wrong, I would happily adjust or abandon it. Show me the evidence.
By my knowledge of TLOP, I could rig the coin so it will always land on heads. You still want to bet? :cool:
Because we all have consciousness. If that consciousness can make matter, then where is all the matter our consciousnesses are making in violation of the laws of physics?
Or can only one consciousness make matter? One consciousness that you have given no evidence for?
Perhaps you could, in Time but...............
Yet LD posits consciousness (The PS)existing without anything else. Consciousness with no matter to store information. Consciousness that is, by any definition, magic.
Youre still assuming that matter creates consciousness is True...
Time measures the sequence of events. It need not have consciousness around for events to occur. Your preliminary assumption that there must always be a consciousness keeps you from examining any other possibilites. Why must there be consciousness? Because you can't imagine a universe without it? I'd say that has more to do with your lack of imagination than with the way the universe works.
What is "a sequence of events" when it is not perceived?
When do you perceive a sequence of events when youre in heavy sleep?
You said none of the senses would exist without consciousness. Protozoa can sense, yet they are not conscious. Busted again.
I was referring to things like rocks Tricky...the stuff that you think has the potential to become alive :rolleyes:
wraith says: Can a rock become conscious?
Trix: Only if the matter it was adding was neural matter.
So when you add enough neural matter in some configuration, consciousness MAGICALLY appears?
Duh. By your mythology, gravitons are souls and each human has exactly one. How does this graviton/soul get associated with a particular human..
Where did my soul come from?
Im not sure about the actual mechanics, but it's linked to time :eek:
So the LD does not and cannot affect the material world in any way? Well why didn't you say so in the first place?
Matter does not create consciousness Trix :rolleyes:
Do we have to do this drill again? Okay, wraith. What created time?
Was time created?
Tricky
28th February 2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by wraith
Was time created?
I don't have time to respond to your whole post, wraith (it's mostly repitition anyway) because I am headed off to a Celtic music festival for the weekend.
But to your last point. If you can postulated something that is not created, like time, then why can you not postulate other things that were not created, like the universe.
Did time just "happen"? Why then can't the universe just "happen"?
wraith
1st March 2003, 01:27 AM
Celtic festival hey?
Sounds cool :cool:
...because this universe depends on time
Franko
1st March 2003, 01:35 AM
Tricky: (A-Theist)
Did time just "happen"? Why then can't the universe just "happen"?
Back to the "steady-state" model of the Universe Trixy? Ohh, I just love the "superior A-Theist worldview". :rolleyes:
I can imagine a universe not existing, but for some strange reason I can't do the same with Time (can't imagine Time not existing). Perhaps you'll explain it to us since you claim it's all logical according to "intellectually better" metaphysical belief system?
Of course if Your system really isn't better or superior I imagine all we will see is more of your a-Theist lies, logical fallacies, condescentions, and run around, but perhaps it will inspire you to compose another epic in homage to me and your soul-crushing Karmic debt.
Unas
2nd March 2003, 07:29 AM
This post is a response to Franko's post #359135 (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=359135#post359135). Should that post vanish, it will mean that Franko has deleted it. He will most likely repost it below, to make it appear as though no one had responded to it. His actions will be yet another demonstration of his fundamental intellectual dishonesty.
Originally posted by Franko
Ohh, I just love the "superior A-Theist worldview".Who are you quoting, Franko? Did Tricky mention a "superior A-Theist worldview"? If so, cite the specific post.
Originally posted by Franko
I can imagine a universe not existing, but for some strange reason I can't do the same with Time (can't imagine Time not existing).What does that prove, other than that there are certain things you personally are incapable of imagining?
Originally posted by Franko
Of course if Your system really isn't better or superior I imagine all we will see is more of your a-Theist lies, logical fallacies, condescentions, and run around...Lies, logical fallacies, condescension, and run-arounds are all your tactics, Franko. Do you not believe that you are running up a "soul-crushing Karmic debt" with your constant dishonesty?
Unas,
Just stop and perhaps we can get this thread back on track?
Franko
2nd March 2003, 10:26 PM
Can any one (a-Theist in particular) explain to me how it is possible for Time to not exist? I can't perceive how it is even possible that this could be True. Is there anyone who can explain it LOGICALLY, without Special Pleading Question Begging, or other Logical Fallacy?
2 + 2 = 4 ... just like that?
Anyone want to take a crack at this? ... anyone at all?
neutrino_cannon
2nd March 2003, 10:59 PM
I'm you man Franko (In a not-prostitutional way)
There have been studies in human perception that show an assumtion in a seies of pictures (girl with ice cream, ice cream on ground) that show we naturally assume an intermediate step.
Suppose that all existance is is the fleeting flicker of several ephemeral universes, each having no thickness of temporality (time is the fourth dimension right? Each universe has width, depth and height, just no duration). But that flicker is enough to cause equaly ephemeral interactions, namely those involving reality and our souls. These interactions are wholely random, no rhyme or reason to them, but our souls, which are equiped with some sort of reasoning ability make sense of the ecclectic flicker.
In this universe, ther is no time, there is only the constant flicker of untold and infinite universes. Like some bizzare dream, it has no logic really, but it makes sense while your in it.
By the way, this entirely theroretical universe has room fo solipism, determinalism or randomness, as well as the existance or non existance of God. We could well be in it.
Tricky
2nd March 2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by wraith
Celtic festival hey?
Sounds cool :cool:
Great fun. Oustanding international music and dancing, hobnobbing and jamming with professional musicians, making new friends. I feel refreshed.
Originally posted by wraith
...because this universe depends on time
The universe depends on matter and energy too, plus a lot of other stuff. You are assuming that time is the key ingredient, but without any explanation of how it works. Does time create energy? If so, how? Why can time self-exist, but nothing else? Without anything other than your assumptions to go on, your position sounds remarkably like faith and/or magic. Please show me this is not the case.
MRC_Hans
3rd March 2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Can any one (a-Theist in particular) explain to me how it is possible for Time to not exist? I can't perceive how it is even possible that this could be True. Is there anyone who can explain it LOGICALLY, without Special Pleading Question Begging, or other Logical Fallacy?
2 + 2 = 4 ... just like that?
Anyone want to take a crack at this? ... anyone at all? 0 + 0 = 0 .... just like that. Well, actually not ;)
Time is one of the ... ingredients that it takes to form this universe. If the universe does not exist, then neither does time. There was no before the universe was created. There wasn't even nothing. There simply was no being.
But we dont know this. It is just what seems to logically follow from observations.
Hans
(edited for codes)
wraith
3rd March 2003, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by Unas
This post is a response to Franko's post #359135 (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=359135#post359135). Should that post vanish, it will mean that Franko has deleted it. He will most likely repost it below, to make it appear as though no one had responded to it. His actions will be yet another demonstration of his fundamental intellectual dishonesty.
Who are you quoting, Franko? Did Tricky mention a "superior A-Theist worldview"? If so, cite the specific post.
What does that prove, other than that there are certain things you personally are incapable of imagining?
Lies, logical fallacies, condescension, and run-arounds are all your tactics, Franko. Do you not believe that you are running up a "soul-crushing Karmic debt" with your constant dishonesty?
Unas, you are the spam king these days ;)
Say, have you ever thought about rearranging your name so that "U" and "a" swap places? :rolleyes:
wraith
3rd March 2003, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by neutrino_cannon
There have been studies in human perception that show an assumtion in a seies of pictures (girl with ice cream, ice cream on ground) that show we naturally assume an intermediate step.
??
Suppose that all existance is is the fleeting flicker of several ephemeral universes, each having no thickness of temporality (time is the fourth dimension right? Each universe has width, depth and height, just no duration). But that flicker is enough to cause equaly ephemeral interactions, namely those involving reality and our souls. These interactions are wholely random, no rhyme or reason to them, but our souls, which are equiped with some sort of reasoning ability make sense of the ecclectic flicker.
In this universe, ther is no time, there is only the constant flicker of untold and infinite universes. Like some bizzare dream, it has no logic really, but it makes sense while your in it.
...I like sci-fi too ;)
By the way, this entirely theroretical universe has room fo solipism, determinalism or randomness, as well as the existance or non existance of God. We could well be in it.
Hows that?
Q-Source
3rd March 2003, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Unas
This post is a response to Franko's post #359135 (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=359135#post359135). Should that post vanish, it will mean that Franko has deleted it. He will most likely repost it below, to make it appear as though no one had responded to it. His actions will be yet another demonstration of his fundamental intellectual dishonesty.
Uñas ( :D )
No offense, but you are spamming the board with the same message to Franko. He got it.
Please refrain from doing this as you are breaking one of the rules of the JREF Forum.
Thanks
Q-S
wraith
3rd March 2003, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by Tricky
Great fun. Oustanding international music and dancing, hobnobbing and jamming with professional musicians, making new friends. I feel refreshed.
Smashing :cool:
The universe depends on matter and energy too, plus a lot of other stuff. You are assuming that time is the key ingredient, but without any explanation of how it works. Does time create energy? If so, how?
The way I see it, if there was time, there must have been a consciousness to perceive it...over time, the consciousness became more complex
Why can time self-exist, but nothing else?
Ultimately, there is only Time and Consciousness
Without anything other than your assumptions to go on, your position sounds remarkably like faith and/or magic. Please show me this is not the case.
Well hey! Dont take my word for it. Look at the logic. How can Time not exist?
Whats magical Tricky, is a timeless period, then for no reason, TLOP and Time come to be...
Atheism is that screwed! :eek:
Unas
3rd March 2003, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Q-Source
No offense, but you are spamming the board with the same message to Franko. He got it. I see no evidence that Franko "got it". What I see is Franko deleting his messages and reposting them, time and again. My messages are intended to provide documentation of Franko's dishonest tactics.
Originally posted by Q-Source
Please refrain from doing this as you are breaking one of the rules of the JREF Forum. Understood. Has anyone pointed out to Franko that he is doing the same?
Unas
3rd March 2003, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Can any one (a-Theist in particular) explain to me how it is possible for Time to not exist? I can't perceive how it is even possible that this could be True. No one said it was true, lying coward. I merely pointed out that your enfeebled imagination is proof of nothing, save for your own inadequacies.
Q-Source
3rd March 2003, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Unas
I see no evidence that Franko "got it". What I see is Franko deleting his messages and reposting them, time and again. My messages are intended to provide documentation of Franko's dishonest tactics.
Understood. Has anyone pointed out to Franko that he is doing the same?
Unas,
Who are you?. Suddenly you appear and follow Franko around the forum :rolleyes:
I understand why you are mad at Franko's tactics, but don't you think it makes everything worse if you post the same message all over the forum. Maybe, if you could open a thread in the flame wars section.
Q-S
Tricky
3rd March 2003, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by wraith
The way I see it, if there was time, there must have been a consciousness to perceive it...over time, the consciousness became more complex.
So you say, yet you provide no evidence. Where did the consciousness come from? Where did time come from. You are making the same "magical" claims you try to assign to atheists.
Ultimately, there is only Time and Consciousness
And everything else is made of time and consciousness? Get serious, wraith. You know full well there is absolutely no evidence to back this up. Time is a dimension. You might as well say everything is made of "length".
Well hey! Dont take my word for it. Look at the logic. How can Time not exist?
I've shown you a number of "times".;) How can time exist when there is nothing for it to measure? How is that logical?
Whats magical Tricky, is a timeless period, then for no reason, TLOP and Time come to be...
Everything you don't understand is magical? Well I suppose there is a precedent for your reasoning. Every mythology ever invented proposed something magic to explain things it couldn't fathom. For you, it is giving anthropomorphic qualities to time.
Atheism is that screwed! :eek:
Because it refuses to invent stuff when it reaches the current limit of knowledge? You should hope to be so screwed.
wraith
3rd March 2003, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by Tricky
So you say, yet you provide no evidence. Where did the consciousness come from? Where did time come from. You are making the same "magical" claims you try to assign to atheists.
Well time/consciousness had to exist....
In relation to athiests, a non-conscious TLOP did not HAVE to create conscious entities
And everything else is made of time and consciousness? Get serious, wraith. You know full well there is absolutely no evidence to back this up.
Im perceiving the ideas of another consciousness.
E=mc^2 right? :eek:
Time is a dimension. You might as well say everything is made of "length".
whats "length" without consciousness
I've shown you a number of "times".;) How can time exist when there is nothing for it to measure? How is that logical?
Well thats only if you assume that there is no consciousness :eek:
Everything you don't understand is magical? Well I suppose there is a precedent for your reasoning. Every mythology ever invented proposed something magic to explain things it couldn't fathom. For you, it is giving anthropomorphic qualities to time.
Well if I dont understand how 2+2=5 then yes, to you, I believe in magic ;)
Because it refuses to invent stuff when it reaches the current limit of knowledge? You should hope to be so screwed.
Who is inventing stuff?!
It only looks that way because the cult of atheism refuses to acknowledge Truth!
Tricky
3rd March 2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by wraith
Well time/consciousness had to exist....
Because....???
See, wraith, here's where your argument falls down. After you have asserted a belief, you should then say why you believe it. So far, the only reason I can see for you beliving time/consciousness had to exist is that you can't imagine it not existing.
Originally posted by wraith
I'm perceiving the ideas of another consciousness.
E=mc^2 right? :eek:
Uh huh. And F=MA, therefore Buddhism is true.:rolleyes:
Originally posted by wraith
whats "length" without consciousness
A consciousless dimension, like time.
Originally posted by wraith
Well thats only if you assume that there is no consciousness :eek:
I see no evidence for a cosmic consciousness, so I do not assume it exists. You assume there is a cosmic consciousness, but you provide no evidence. Which is more logical?
Originally posted by wraith
Who is inventing stuff?!
It only looks that way because the cult of atheism refuses to acknowledge Truth!
Hint: Soul-carrying gravitons? Progenitor Solipsist? Dream matter? Cosmic consciousness?
Yeah, you're right. I refuse to acknowledge that any of those things are true. My cult is funny that way.
Franko
3rd March 2003, 08:24 AM
MRC:
There was no before the universe was created. There wasn't even nothing. There simply was no being.
But we dont know this. It is just what seems to logically follow from observations.
How long did this "Timeless Era" last for MRC? (approximately?)
10$ says Unas does some type of martial art.
Unas
3rd March 2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Q-Source
Unas,
Who are you?. Why does it matter?
Originally posted by Q-Source
Suddenly you appear and follow Franko around the forumFranko is a liar. I dislike liars. I call them on their lies when I find them lying.
Franko
3rd March 2003, 09:21 AM
10$ says Unas does some type of martial art.
Yeah, $20 says that he is Master of the "Thumb up Ass" style of Kung Foo.
Originally posted by Franko
Yeah, $20 says that he is Master of the "Thumb up Ass" style of Kung Foo.
That could be.
I'm thinking more along the lines of doing a spiritual dance in the ring and wearing a funny hat and praying to his ancestors and trainers and a god for good luck.
And then turning around and claiming that his martial art is purely rational.
MRC_Hans
4th March 2003, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by Franko
How long did this "Timeless Era" last for MRC? (approximately?) It didnt last for anything, since that would imply the existence of time. "Timeless Era" is an oxymoron.
Hans
Franko
4th March 2003, 08:24 AM
Franko:
How long did this "Timeless Era" last for MRC? (approximately?)
MRC:
It didnt last for anything
Well if this "Timeless Era" lasted for Time = 0 then isn;t that the same as saying that NO TIMELESS ERA EVER EXISTED??
How is what you are saying ANY different?
Explain it to me ...
Tricky
4th March 2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Well if this "Timeless Era" lasted for Time = 0 then isn;t that the same as saying that NO TIMELESS ERA EVER EXISTED??
How is what you are saying ANY different?
Explain it to me ...
Maybe this little exercise will help you understand, franko.
Tell us how long it takes for you to log on to your computer, but do so without using reference to any units of time or chronological terms, and without comparing it to the duration of some other task.
Franko
4th March 2003, 09:57 AM
Tricky: (A-Theist Believer)
Tell us how long it takes for you to log on to your computer, but do so without using reference to any units of time or chronological terms, and without comparing it to the duration of some other task.
Like I said "Tricky" I can't imagine Time Not existing.
Only A-Theists claim to possess this "magic power". Unfortunately none of them seem able to explain how it works ... including yourself. Personally I lack-o-belief in magic A-Theist powers. I also lack a belief that there was ever a "Timeless Era". It is a logically inconsistent notion. I'd even say it was axiomatically False.
Tricky
4th March 2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Like I said "Tricky" I can't imagine Time Not existing.
So sorry your powers of conception are so weak, but at least you see the internal contradiction of asking "how long was there no time", right?
Think of it instead as a timeless "state", a term which makes no reference to time.
Franko
4th March 2003, 10:15 AM
Think of it instead as a timeless "state", a term which makes no reference to time.
Did this timeless state last any less Time that you spent thinking about writing that sentence? What is your evidence that Time can NOT exist Trixy? It sounds a rather insane notion to me.
MRC_Hans
4th March 2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Well if this "Timeless Era" lasted for Time = 0 then isn;t that the same as saying that NO TIMELESS ERA EVER EXISTED??
How is what you are saying ANY different?
Explain it to me ... It is not any different. There is no reference in the universe to describe the state where the universe does not exist. This does, however, not lead to the logic conclusion that the universe has existed "forever".
Hans
Franko
4th March 2003, 10:23 AM
MRC:
It is not any different. There is no reference in the universe to describe the state where the universe does not exist. This does, however, not lead to the logic conclusion that the universe has existed "forever".
I agree. But even if this Universe has not existed forever (it hasn't), how could Time NOT exist in the prior period? I am saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a consciousness to imagine "No TIME". You can't do it (not without making yourself cease to exist). Try it yourself!
Tricky
4th March 2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Did this timeless state last any less Time that you spent thinking about writing that sentence? What is your evidence that Time can NOT exist Trixy? It sounds a rather insane notion to me.
sigh
I show you a way to think of it without using chronological references and the first thing you do is go and add them back in.
I'm sorry, Franko. I don't believe I will be able to cure your inability to conceptualize.
Franko
4th March 2003, 10:26 AM
Tricky:
I show you a way to think of it without using chronological references and the first thing you do is go and add them back in.
I'm sorry, Franko. I don't believe I will be able to cure your inability to conceptualize.
Either you don't honestly believe what you are claiming, or you are giving up far too easy.
Perhaps you could practice on MRC. He doesn't seem to be in complete agreement with you on this point. I'm sure you could explain it to him easier than you could explain it to me.
Tricky
4th March 2003, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Either you don't honestly believe what you are claiming, or you are giving up far too easy.
LOL. I don't think anyone could accuse me of giving up too easy. I've been sparring with you for over a year now, though many (including Randi) have advised me not to waste my time doing so.
Originally posted by Franko
Perhaps you could practice on MRC. He doesn't seem to be in complete agreement with you on this point. I'm sure you could explain it to him easier than you could explain it to me.
There is no need to because MRC already understands. I'm just working with the remedial students here.
MRC_Hans
4th March 2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Franko
I agree. But even if this Universe has not existed forever (it hasn't), how could Time NOT exist in the prior period? I am saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a consciousness to imagine "No TIME". You can't do it (not without making yourself cease to exist). Try it yourself!
There was no prior period. "Period" requires time to exist. Time is just another part of the fabric of this universe. In the state where this universe does not exist, neither does time.
Even if it impossible for a consciousness to imagine (and it is sure difficult), that is not evidence that it is impossible. It just shows the limitations of our mind. Can you imagine what it is like to be a non-conscious entity? Yet rocks exist.
Hans
Franko
4th March 2003, 12:31 PM
There was no prior period. "Period" requires time to exist.
I agree, so it is impossible for there to be “No Time”.
Time is just another part of the fabric of this universe.
Question begging. What is your empirical evidence for this claim?
You can’t even explain this logically. Essentially you are claiming you can draw a 4-sided triangle … you just don’t feel like it right now.
Same thing you are doing with “free will”. It’s easy to pretend to believe in things that you don’t really comprehend. This way if someone challenges you on it, you can just claim you are really smart, and they are the one who doesn’t comprehend.
If you understood what you were talking about … you could explain it better.
In the state where this universe does not exist, neither does time.
How so? When the Universe didn’t exist … How Long did it Not exist for?
Once again if you say that it Not existed for zero time (Time = 0) then isn’t that the same as saying there was NEVER a Timeless Era???
Even if it impossible for a consciousness to imagine (and it is sure difficult), that is not evidence that it is impossible.
Yes, that is EXACTLY what it is evidence of. Special Pleading is a Logical fallacy – even when “scientific” A-Theists do it.
You may have deluded yourself into believing you follow the “one true faith”, but not everyone is so easily duped. Some of us actually require logical (comprehensible) reasons for believing things. We can’t just pretend that the Emperor’s new clothes look so good, because if we don’t pretend other idiots won’t think we are “smart”.
It just shows the limitations of our mind.
No, the person who has NOTHING but Special Pleads and Logical Fallacies to back up their beliefs is the one who’s mind has been Limited.
Can you imagine what it is like to be a non-conscious entity? Yet rocks exist.
Only because You imagine that they do.
MRC_Hans
5th March 2003, 01:57 AM
quote:
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There was no prior period. "Period" requires time to exist.
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I agree, so it is impossible for there to be “No Time”.
No, it is just impossible to have a "timeless period".
quote:
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Time is just another part of the fabric of this universe.
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Question begging. What is your empirical evidence for this claim?
You can’t even explain this logically. Essentially you are claiming you can draw a 4-sided triangle … you just don’t feel like it right now.
Same thing you are doing with “free will”. It’s easy to pretend to believe in things that you don’t really comprehend. This way if someone challenges you on it, you can just claim you are really smart, and they are the one who doesn’t comprehend.
If you understood what you were talking about … you could explain it better.
Just a minute. We are here discussing the scientific theory of the Big Bang. If I could present proof of that theory, I sure wouldn't be wasting my time on this board. The prevalent theories are:
1) Big Bang (majority theory): The universe, including spacetime was created at some point. Before then there was nothing, there wasnt even "before".
2) Linear universe (minority theory): The universe is infinite, has existed infinitely, and will exist infinitely. (this theory has some nasty problems with entrophy).
Now, you have a third theory: Time is infinite, the rest is not. Some of us have now been trying to explain BB theory to you, but for your theory, you have the burden of proof.
quote:
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In the state where this universe does not exist, neither does time.
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How so? When the Universe didn’t exist … How Long did it Not exist for?
Once again if you say that it Not existed for zero time (Time = 0) then isn’t that the same as saying there was NEVER a Timeless Era???
Timeless era, no. Timeless state, yes.
quote:
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Even if it impossible for a consciousness to imagine (and it is sure difficult), that is not evidence that it is impossible.
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Yes, that is EXACTLY what it is evidence of. Special Pleading is a Logical fallacy – even when “scientific” A-Theists do it.
Are you seriously claiming that if our consciousness cannot imagine someting, then it must be false??? Even under your "consciousness creates matter" premise, that claim is absurd. Certainly, the universe contains things that neither you nor I can imagine. But if the Universe is created by a higher entitiy, this entity presumably understands it all.
You may have deluded yourself into believing you follow the “one true faith”, but not everyone is so easily duped. Some of us actually require logical (comprehensible) reasons for believing things. We can’t just pretend that the Emperor’s new clothes look so good, because if we don’t pretend other idiots won’t think we are “smart”.
Yeah, well. I could just as easily tell you the same. After all, the only evidence you have ever presented for your "true faith" is a flawed syllogism and a non-sequiteur.
quote:
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It just shows the limitations of our mind.
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No, the person who has NOTHING but Special Pleads and Logical Fallacies to back up their beliefs is the one who’s mind has been Limited.
Right, so when are you gonna present some hard evidence?
quote:
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Can you imagine what it is like to be a non-conscious entity? Yet rocks exist.
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Only because You imagine that they do.
Special plead. QED.
Hans
wraith
5th March 2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Tricky
Because....???
See, wraith, here's where your argument falls down. After you have asserted a belief, you should then say why you believe it. So far, the only reason I can see for you beliving time/consciousness had to exist is that you can't imagine it not existing.
HA
...and you can?
When you cease to exist Tricky ( :rolleyes: ) I want you to say "I perceieve no time!"
Uh huh. And F=MA, therefore Buddhism is true.:rolleyes:
ahhh no, that doesnt flow ;)
wraith says: whats "length" without consciousness?
Tricky: A consciousless dimension, like time.
If there was a square, how could you perceive it without Time?
I see no evidence for a cosmic consciousness, so I do not assume it exists. You assume there is a cosmic consciousness, but you provide no evidence. Which is more logical?
Listen Tricky, I think you know pretty dam well what my evidence is for a Higher Power!
CAR obeys YOU obeys TLOP!
How are you more conscious than TLOP without your precious double standard? :eek:
Yeah, you're right. I refuse to acknowledge that any of those things are true. My cult is funny that way.
anyone that places bets to lose..........
wraith
5th March 2003, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Timeless era, no. Timeless state, yes.
How long did this timeless state last for?
MRC_Hans
5th March 2003, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by wraith
How long did this timeless state last for?
Already answered (more than once :rolleyes: ).
Hans
wraith
5th March 2003, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Already answered (more than once :rolleyes: ).
Hans
Well you said some things, but you never did answer the question....
If a timeless state, as you call it, existed for 0 seconds, then how did it exist at all?
Rosetta Stone
5th March 2003, 06:36 AM
Suppose that the universe will eventually succumb to heat death, where there's nothing happening anymore, and possibly, no objects because everything has decayed. What then becomes of time, when there's nothing to measure?
If a timeless state, as you call it, existed for 0 seconds
Bogus argument.
My mind is 0 cm wide and 0 cm deep. Does this mean it doesn't exist?
Tricky
5th March 2003, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by wraith
...and you can?
When you cease to exist Tricky ( :rolleyes: ) I want you to say "I perceieve no time!"
Asking a person who doesn't exist to say anything is almost as ridiculous as asking how long a timeless state lasted. What have you heard recently from dead people?
ahhh no, that doesnt flow ;)
It makes exactly as much sense as the "proof" for Logical Deism, i.e. none.
If there was a square, how could you perceive it without Time?
You really aren't getting this are you? The timeless state means there is nothing. No length, no squares, no you.
Listen Tricky, I think you know pretty dam well what my evidence is for a Higher Power!
I know you've repeated the same few things a lot of times, but not anything you have said constitutes evidence. You have never shown me why the existence of the laws of physics predicates a higher power. All you have said is that you can't imagine it to be otherwise. Well I can. I can imagine a lot of different scenarios, but without evidence for them, it is pointless to believe in them.
Start with something simple. What is the experimental evidence you have for gravitons?
How are you more conscious than TLOP without your precious double standard? :eek:
Show me a single consciousness which is not associated with a physical brain and I will place some credence in what you say. No, don't just claim it. Show it. If you expect me to just take your word for it, why you would be harboring a double standard since you ask others to provide proof of everything they propose.
anyone that places bets to lose..........
Actually, I don't gamble at all. I don't even play the lottery. Tell me, wraith, why aren't you wealthy, what with your inside knowlege of what is going to happen in the future? You should be cleaning up at the race track.
wraith
5th March 2003, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Rosetta Stone
Suppose that the universe will eventually succumb to heat death, where there's nothing happening anymore, and possibly, no objects because everything has decayed. What then becomes of time, when there's nothing to measure?
you mean
what becomes of Time if there is no Consciousness?
wraith
5th March 2003, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by UndercoverElephant
Bogus argument.
My mind is 0 cm wide and 0 cm deep. Does this mean it doesn't exist?
Your Soul doesnt have dimensions?
wraith
5th March 2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Tricky
Asking a person who doesn't exist to say anything is almost as ridiculous as asking how long a timeless state lasted. What have you heard recently from dead people?
Thats the point. When anyone says "I can perceive no time" they might aswell say "I can perceive time when Im dead".
You really aren't getting this are you? The timeless state means there is nothing. No length, no squares, no you.
For what reason did "no-time" become "time"?
I know you've repeated the same few things a lot of times, but not anything you have said constitutes evidence. You have never shown me why the existence of the laws of physics predicates a higher power. All you have said is that you can't imagine it to be otherwise. Well I can. I can imagine a lot of different scenarios, but without evidence for them, it is pointless to believe in them.
Start with something simple. What is the experimental evidence you have for gravitons?
You have spacetime...space and time are connected...
What are you? Youre a consciousness that operates via MPB thats based on Time and history...
Sounds like the work of Gravity
Show me a single consciousness which is not associated with a physical brain and I will place some credence in what you say. No, don't just claim it. Show it. If you expect me to just take your word for it, why you would be harboring a double standard since you ask others to provide proof of everything they propose.
I cant force a square peg into a round hole. Thats what you want me today. You are looking through a "matter creates consciousness" window.
You say physical brain.
I say a brain thats made of energy.
Actually, I don't gamble at all. I don't even play the lottery. Tell me, wraith, why aren't you wealthy, what with your inside knowlege of what is going to happen in the future? You should be cleaning up at the race track.
hate to tell you this, but atheism is a HUGE gamble...
Originally posted by wraith
Your Soul doesnt have dimensions?
Last time I tried to measure it I had trouble finding where to put the ruler.... :rolleyes:
Franko
5th March 2003, 08:12 AM
Elephant:
My mind is 0 cm wide and 0 cm deep. Does this mean it doesn't exist?
Bogus argument. That’s simply incomprehensible I have no idea what it means.
The Wraith:
Your Soul doesnt have dimensions?
Elephant:
Last time I tried to measure it I had trouble finding where to put the ruler....
What type of “ruler”, exactly, were you using to measure?
Tricky
5th March 2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by wraith
Thats the point. When anyone says "I can perceive no time" they might aswell say "I can perceive time when Im dead".
But no one is saying they can "perceive" no time. They say they can "imagine" no time. You do understand the difference, do you not?
For what reason did "no-time" become "time"?
The same reason the universe came into existence (which evidence suggests was the Big Bang). Once things existed, then time had meaning.
You have spacetime...space and time are connected...
What are you? Youre a consciousness that operates via MPB thats based on Time and history...
Sounds like the work of Gravity.
Do you honestly think that jumble of words makes any sense? And why the heck would you say "sounds like the work of Gravity" any more than you would say "sounds like the work of stellar radiation" or "sounds like the work of leprachauns"? You have failed to establish any sort of connection to gravity.
If consciousness is tied to gravity, then why do not astronauts become unconscious (or at least sluggish) while they are in a place where the effects of gravity are negligible? If you could show that to be true, then I'd call it evidence. Unfortunately for you, we have lots of evidence that this is not the case.
I cant force a square peg into a round hole. Thats what you want me today. You are looking through a "matter creates consciousness" window.
Because it's the only one open. Your "consciousness creates matter" window is locked and boarded. You cannot show a single piece of evidence for the truth of that statement. Why is it you can imagine a disembodied consciousness, but cannot fathom a timeless state?
You say physical brain.
I say a brain thats made of energy.
I have lots of evidence for physical brains. I've seen a number of them. There are whole branches of science dedicated to them. I have yet to see a brain made of energy. Please show me one and I'll put some credence in your statement.
hate to tell you this, but atheism is a HUGE gamble...
Still buying into Pascal's Wager (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/#5) eh wraith? It is a simple task to debunk it.
Bogus argument. That’s simply incomprehensible I have no idea what it means.
It means that souls do not have physical dimensions, but still exist.
And since time, as well as space, belongs to the physical Universe, things which have no temporal dimension may also exist.
;)
quote:
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The Wraith:
Your Soul doesnt have dimensions?
Elephant:
Last time I tried to measure it I had trouble finding where to put the ruler....
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What type of “ruler”, exactly, were you using to measure?
One marked with centimetres.
Franko
5th March 2003, 08:22 AM
Elephant:
It means that souls do not have physical dimensions, but still exist.
Spoken like a True mystical-pseudo-Materialist.
Elephant:
And since time, as well as space, belongs to the physical Universe, things which have no temporal dimension may also exist.
Ahhh, so things which don’t exist actually do?
You mean like figments of your imagination?
Elephant:
One marked with centimetres.
Try eternities instead next time.
Upchurch
5th March 2003, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by UndercoverElephant
Last time I tried to measure it I had trouble finding where to put the ruler.... :rolleyes: Perhaps the appropriate question is "What kind of dimension does a soul have?"
Tricky
5th March 2003, 08:35 AM
'Bout time to get this thread back on topic again. There are a couple of important new additions to the list of Logical Deism beliefs. Of particular importance is the discovery that the Logical Goddess does not control your perceptions. My only conclusion can be that perceptions lie outside The Laws Of Physics.
As always, thanks to contributers (CWL in particular this time) and an open invitation to Logical Deists to correct the list.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=290098&highlight=logical+goddess+omnipotent#post290098)
Origins This universe is part of an omniverse.
The Omniverse, and all of its subsets (Universes, even You and I) are all reiterative hierarchical structures, i.e. fractals. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=346035&highlight=hierarchical#post346035)
The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=306446&highlight=progenitor#post306446)
This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
Your actions are controlled by the Logical Goddess, but your perceptions are not. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=364145&highlight=actions+perceptions#post364145)
The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343044&highlight=goddess+bound+fate#post343044) and logic. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343062&highlight=bound+logic#post343062)
Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
Consciousness creates matter.
Once Time achieves a certain level of self-awareness it begins to evolve (and expand). Your “extra” spatial dimensions are the early manifestations of “the matter”, but they are merely the byproduct of Time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=352045&highlight=time+selfawareness#post352045[/url)
The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics . (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=306475&highlight=configuration+stuff#post306475)
How Things Work One soul = one graviton.
Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334873&highlight=spin+quality+mass+charge+velocity#post33 4873)
Information (i.e. Energy) can be either True or False. The total quantity of information manifest as Mass. The ratio of True information to False information (quality of Mass) manifests as Spin (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=363463&highlight=manifest#post363463)
Velocity is Speed of Processing (speed of thought, speed of comprehension) and Charge is Quality of Velocity (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=363463&highlight=manifest#post363463)
The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female. (http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=114229&highlight=determinism+interaction+gravitons#post11 4229)
There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334724&highlight=entire+Universe+is+essentially+an+illusi on#post334724[/url)
TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
True randomness does not exist.
If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=338621&highlight=matter+real+sense#post338621)
Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodymics. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=338862&highlight=thermodymics#post338862)
A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334704&highlight=meme#post334704)
Gravitons are made of time (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=311266&highlight=information+gravitons#post311266)
The Logical Goddess cannot create gravitons, but she can destroy them. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=346035&highlight=hierarchical#post346035)
Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334724&highlight=merely+projections#post334724)
Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=342244&highlight=Simultaneous+Perception#post342244)
Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343594&highlight=conditioning%2Fcontrol#post343594)
The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=344438&highlight=consciousness+laws+time+gravity#post3444 38)
Space and Time are essentially the same thing, or more accurately “Space” (and it’s cousin the “matter”) are merely manifestations of extrapolated (evolved) Time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=352345&highlight=space+extrapolated#post352345)
Morality Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=305988&highlight=progenitor#post305988)
There are consequences for the things you do.
The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom. (http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=121324&highlight=database+expands#post121324)
Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=306200&highlight=anyone+commits+immoral+insane#post306200 )
Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=313714&highlight=situation+pattern+events#post313714)
Miscellaneous/The Lexicon Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time) (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=303319&highlight=karma#post303319)
No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=315164&highlight=figment+progenitor#post315164)
choices are preordained outputs (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=323334&highlight=choices+preordained+outputs#post323334)
In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=324718&highlight=eternity+period+time#post324718)
Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic there would be no Fate. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=344470&highlight=gravity+logic+possible#post344470)
Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=344372&highlight=Upchurch+explain+something#post344372)
Love is when the existence of another Graviton becomes more axiomatic then your own existence. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=351994&highlight=axiomatic#post351994)
A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=315470&highlight=remnant+furthermore#post315470)
Franko
5th March 2003, 08:52 AM
Tricky:
What exactly is making the “choices”? Aren’t “YOU” (people) just your physical brain? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?
What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???
Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.
Franko
5th March 2003, 08:53 AM
Tricky:
The same reason the universe came into existence (which evidence suggests was the Big Bang). Once things existed, then time had meaning.
So explain how meaningful "Time" appeared out of unmeaningful "No Time"?
If it really isn't Magic (as you A-Theists all claim) then you would be able to explain EXACTLY how it happened.
But you can't ...
hammegk
5th March 2003, 09:12 AM
Nice to see the materialists/atheists trying to think about what the Abiogenesis (not terran abiog.) was/is...... :)
Tricky
5th March 2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Tricky:
What exactly is making the “choices”? Aren’t “YOU” (people) just your physical brain? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals)...
snip
What in the world trigered this little rant, Franko? Does this have anything to do with what was recently posted, or was it just a random synaptic event? :D
However, I would be interested in knowing if under Logical Deism, one's perceptions (which are not under control of the LG) obey TLOP. Try to stay on topic.
Franko
5th March 2003, 09:35 AM
Tricky,
The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.
Tricky
5th March 2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Tricky,
The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.
Perhaps, then, you should ask about the beliefs I actually hold rather than the ones which you (in your intellectual dishonosty) ascribe to me. Post a link to something I have actually said and I will explain what I meant. What could be more honest?
Have I not represented your actual beliefs in The List? Have I not shown exactly where you said these things? All I am asking is that you show me the same courtesy. Pretty please?
Franko
5th March 2003, 09:47 AM
Tricky: (Deceitful A-Theist)
Perhaps, then, you should ask about the beliefs I actually hold rather than the ones which you (in your intellectual dishonosty) ascribe to me. Post a link to something I have actually said and I will explain what I meant. What could be more honest?
Ahh, so does this mean you are having doubts about the Superiority of Toast?
I thought you told me that YOU make CHOICES amongst AVAILABLE OPTIONS??? Are you denying that you said this? Why all the lies and obfuscation Unas? Why can’t you just explain your beliefs? Why all the dishonesty and denials? Why all the run around all these months? Do you honestly believe that my questions are getting easier for you to answer over Time?
Tricky
5th March 2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Ahh, so does this mean you are having doubts about the Superiority of Toast?
I thought you told me that YOU make CHOICES amongst AVAILABLE OPTIONS??? Are you denying that you said this? Why all the lies and obfuscation Unas? Why can’t you just explain your beliefs? Why all the dishonesty and denials? Why all the run around all these months? Do you honestly believe that my questions are getting easier for you to answer over Time?
Oh, I forgot. You don't know how to make links. Okay, here's the short course:
Open a second browser window and connect to the forums.
Go up to the top of the page and click the "Search" button.
Enter one or more of key words to search for (they must be at least four letters long).
Enter the name of the person who's posts you are searching for. If you do not enter a name, it will search for all posters.
Pull down the forums you wish the search in and the time frame for the search.
I find it is more useful to click "show results as posts". It takes you right to the words you are searching for.
Click "Perform Search" This will bring up a screen with several posts in chronological order which meet your criteria. You can click on each one, then use the "back" button on your browser to return to the search results.
When you find the post you are looking for, click in the address box on your browser and copy it. (Remember I showed you how to bring up the address box yesterday).
Now start a new post either from scratch or using the "quote" button.
At the top of the reply window, there is a button labeled "http://" Click it.
The first window it brings up is the text that will appear in your link. Type anything you like in here. I recommend using the exact words from the post. Click "OK"
The second window is the http address of the link. Paste the address from the box in the other browser window where you did your search. Click "OK" again.
Note that this link is always posted at the bottom of your message. If you want it to be elsewhere, you will have to cut and paste everything between the {URL= and {/URL} boxes, including the bracketed boxes themselves.
Use the "Preview Post" button to see if the link appears the way you want it.
Submit post.
Now you can link my quotes and we can discuss them. Isn't the internet fun?:D
Franko, I'm not smart enough to debate your beliefs. I am smart enough to realize that if one person in six billion asserts that they and only they possess true understanding of the ultimate nature of the Universe, statistics are not exactly on their side.
Franko
5th March 2003, 10:19 AM
Sundog:
Franko, I'm not smart enough to debate your beliefs. I am smart enough to realize that if one person in six billion asserts that they and only they possess true understanding of the ultimate nature of the Universe, statistics are not exactly on their side.
I you believe that the Truth is magically decided by a majority vote then i suggest you find the 'One true Faith' based on which church has the largest congregation.
If you honestly believe this then you are right, you aren't prepared to comprehend Logical Deism.
Unas
5th March 2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Franko
I realize that you are DESPERATELY trying to avoid perceiving the glaring contradictions in your Dogmatic Religious Beliefs. I just don’t think that a Skeptics forum for people trying to discuss RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY is the appropriate place for you to be doing it. If you are unwilling or unable to explain your beliefs, and your only purpose for posting on this forum is to harass any Skeptic who believes in a Deity, then you really have no business being here.Franko wants us to go away, because he cannot answer the simple questions he has been asked.
Originally posted by Franko
The is the RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY forum of a SKEPTICS website; not Infidels.org. Take you hate-mongering and condescensions directed towards Theists and deists elsewhere.Franko is again lying. He has not been the target of "hate-mongering". In fact, a cursory examination of his posts and the ad hominem attacks contained therein will demonstrate that the bulk of the "hate-mongering" in any discussion in which Franko participates is that which Franko himself promotes.
Tricky
5th March 2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Franko
Tricky
I realize that you are DESPERATELY trying to avoid perceiving the glaring contradictions in your Dogmatic Religious Beliefs. I just don’t think that a Skeptics forum for people trying to discuss RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY is the appropriate place for you to be doing it.
You know, I just checked, and by golly you're right. This is the Religion and Philosophy forum. Maybe that's why I'm trying to discuss (as the thread title states), Logical Deism, which, unless I am mistaken is both. You keep harping on science, which has its own forum.
Of course, you could start a thread to discuss those things which seem to be always at the forefront of your mind. If I post to a thread called "What Atheists Believe", I can assure you that I won't ask about Logical Deism. But let's try to return to the title topic here, shall we?
Now does the conscious entity you call TLOP control your perceptions or not, according to Logical Deism?
Unas
5th March 2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Franko
I realize that you are...Franko has deleted his original post, and reposted the text. He does this frequently, in order to pretend that he has not already been answered (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=366504#post366504) -- another manifestation of his basic dishonesty.
Franko
6th March 2003, 02:27 PM
Tricky: (A-Theist)
Now does the conscious entity you call TLOP control your perceptions or not, according to Logical Deism?
I'd say yes, but you would have to precisely define what you mean by "perceptions". The LG generates this Universe. Everything you "perceive" is transmitted directly by Her to You.
Franko
6th March 2003, 02:29 PM
Unas:
I realize that you are DESPERATELY trying to avoid perceiving the glaring contradictions in your Dogmatic Religious Beliefs. I just don’t think that a Skeptics forum for people trying to discuss RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY is the appropriate place for you to be doing it. If you are unwilling or unable to explain your beliefs, and your only purpose for posting on this forum is to harass any Skeptic who believes in a Deity, then you really have no business being here. The is the RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY forum of a SKEPTICS website; not Infidels.org. Take you hate-mongering and condescensions directed towards Theists and deists elsewhere.
However, assuming you aren't just another A-Theist relogious fanatic here to Troll (never seen that b4 :rolleyes: )... what exactly is making the “choices”? Aren’t “YOU” (people) just your physical brain? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?
What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???
Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.
Tricky
6th March 2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Franko
I'd say yes, but you would have to precisely define what you mean by "perceptions". The LG generates this Universe. Everything you "perceive" is transmitted directly by Her to You.
And yet here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=364145&highlight=actions+perceptions#post364145) you state otherwise.
What definition of "perceptions" are you using?
Franko
6th March 2003, 02:43 PM
You asked me the Question Tricky. Now you want me to explain what question You were asking?
Tricky
6th March 2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Franko
You asked me the Question Tricky. Now you want me to explain what question You were asking?
Yes, I would like you to explain how you can simultaneously claim that we are in command of our own perceptions and that we are not in control of our own perceptions.
Tricky
7th March 2003, 12:57 PM
Wow! What a Post by Franko (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)! So many things to learn about that wonderful parsimoneous religion called Logical Deism. Have a look at the posts with the
red bullets
to see what is new today.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=290098&highlight=logical+goddess+omnipotent#post290098)
Origins This universe is part of an omniverse.
The Omniverse, and all of its subsets (Universes, even You and I) are all reiterative hierarchical structures, i.e. fractals. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=346035&highlight=hierarchical#post346035)
The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=306446&highlight=progenitor#post306446)
After an Eternity of isolation, he was Infinity self-aware, but he had no idea what it would be like to experience individuality, so his Omniscience ended when Individuality began. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Your soul is a shard of what was once an Omnipotent Solipsist Entity, i.e. The Progenitor Solipsist. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
Your actions are controlled by the Logical Goddess, but your perceptions are not. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=364145&highlight=actions+perceptions#post364145)
The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343044&highlight=goddess+bound+fate#post343044) and logic. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343062&highlight=bound+logic#post343062)
Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
Consciousness creates matter.
Once Time achieves a certain level of self-awareness it begins to evolve (and expand). Your “extra” spatial dimensions are the early manifestations of “the matter”, but they are merely the byproduct of Time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=352045&highlight=time+selfawareness#post352045[/url)
The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics . (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=306475&highlight=configuration+stuff#post306475)
How Things Work One soul = one graviton.
Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
In the True reality Gravitons are ALL that exists (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
When two Gravitons interact they exchange Energy in the form of memes. This entanglement creates a decision junction in SpaceTime. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334873&highlight=spin+quality+mass+charge+velocity#post33 4873)
Information (i.e. Energy) can be either True or False. The total quantity of information manifest as Mass. The ratio of True information to False information (quality of Mass) manifests as Spin (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=363463&highlight=manifest#post363463)
Velocity is Speed of Processing (speed of thought, speed of comprehension) and Charge is Quality of Velocity (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=363463&highlight=manifest#post363463)
Your consciousness is like a fractal. It consist of Two parts, your Algorithm (your Soul, the Velocity of your particle), and your Database (your Graviton, the fractal image itself, the Mass of your particle). (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Two premises make a conclusion and two conclusions become premises which in turn make a new higher level conclusion. The height of your = hierarchy pyramid is your Velocity, the width of your pyramid is your Mass. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female. (http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=114229&highlight=determinism+interaction+gravitons#post11 4229)
The main difference between (males) and the LG, is that (males) don’t have Vaginas, and She doesn’t have a Penis. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334724&highlight=entire+Universe+is+essentially+an+illusi on#post334724[/url)
TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
True randomness does not exist.
If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=338621&highlight=matter+real+sense#post338621)
Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodynamics. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=338862&highlight=thermodymics#post338862)
A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334704&highlight=meme#post334704)
Gravitons are made of time (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=311266&highlight=information+gravitons#post311266)
The Logical Goddess cannot create gravitons, but she can destroy them. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=346035&highlight=hierarchical#post346035)
Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334724&highlight=merely+projections#post334724)
Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=342244&highlight=Simultaneous+Perception#post342244)
Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343594&highlight=conditioning%2Fcontrol#post343594)
The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=344438&highlight=consciousness+laws+time+gravity#post3444 38)
Space and Time are essentially the same thing, or more accurately “Space” (and it’s cousin the “matter”) are merely manifestations of extrapolated (evolved) Time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=352345&highlight=space+extrapolated#post352345)
Morality Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=305988&highlight=progenitor#post305988)
There are consequences for the things you do.
The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom. (http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=121324&highlight=database+expands#post121324)
Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=306200&highlight=anyone+commits+immoral+insane#post306200 )
Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=313714&highlight=situation+pattern+events#post313714)
Miscellaneous/The Lexicon Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time) (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=303319&highlight=karma#post303319)
No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=315164&highlight=figment+progenitor#post315164)
choices are preordained outputs (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=323334&highlight=choices+preordained+outputs#post323334)
In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=324718&highlight=eternity+period+time#post324718)
Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic there would be no Fate. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=344470&highlight=gravity+logic+possible#post344470)
Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=344372&highlight=Upchurch+explain+something#post344372)
Love is when the existence of another Graviton becomes more axiomatic then your own existence. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=351994&highlight=axiomatic#post351994)
A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=315470&highlight=remnant+furthermore#post315470)
Tricky
7th March 2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Franko
You still haven't quoted me in your sig yet!
That's because I can't decide on which of your statements is the most hilarious. I don't want to have a sig like Headscratcher that is longer than most of his posts.
BTW, why do you never use sigs or avatars, Franko?
Tricky
7th March 2003, 01:51 PM
Oh yes, I meant to comment on this one.
from The List
An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future.
Now unless you are using a double standard, this pretty much invalidates fatalism. Fatalism says the future is fixed and nothing can change it.
Are you now renouncing fatalism and endorsing free will for "entities which can perceive the future"? How much of the future do you have to perceive? I can perceive a small amount myself. Does that mean I have a small amount of free will?
Oh, Franko, me lad, this one is going to come back to haunt you.
Tricky
7th March 2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Franko
Jesus Christ Trixy, why don't you just go back to posting as Unas?
BZZT!!! Wrong guess again, Franko. Unas is not my sock puppet. But I promise you, if you ever DO guess it, I will tell you.
Franko
7th March 2003, 02:17 PM
Tricky: (A-Theist)
I realize that you are DESPERATELY trying to avoid perceiving the glaring contradictions in your Dogmatic Religious Beliefs. I just don’t think that a Skeptics forum for people trying to discuss RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY is the appropriate place for you to be doing it. If you are unwilling or unable to explain your beliefs, and your only purpose for posting on this forum is to harass any Skeptic who believes in a Deity, then you really have no business being here. The is the RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY forum of a SKEPTICS website; not Infidels.org. Take you hate-mongering and condescensions directed towards Theists and deists elsewhere.
However, assuming you aren't just another A-Theist religious fanatic here to Troll (never seen that b4 :rolleyes: )... what exactly is making the “choices”? Aren’t “YOU” (people) just your physical brain? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?
What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???
Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs, and the issue of What is YOU is essential to your “explanation” for your belief in magical “free willy” powers. How can you claim that “free will” exist when you cannot even explain what is making the “Choice”?!?!
Tricky
7th March 2003, 02:23 PM
As I have stated often before, Franko, just show me a link to anything I have said and I will discuss it with you. I decline to defend things I haven't said.
And stop frothing at the mouth. Drool is not good for your keyboard.
Upchurch
7th March 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Tricky
That's because I can't decide on which of your statements is the most hilarious. I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your very next post. "An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future." is a pretty good one coming from a fatalist....
CWL
7th March 2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your very next post. "An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future." is a pretty good one coming from a fatalist....
Agreed. Interesting statement indeed. Perhaps it is time to revive this classic thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11212)...
Franko
7th March 2003, 02:47 PM
whitefork:
You can always say "I don't know what free will or free choice means but I can cause things to occur and prevent things from occurring, or I can do nothing. What more do you want?"
Kind of the “take my word for it” “Proof” of Atheism, whitefork?
What more do you want?"
How about the EXACT SAME THING you would ask of a Christian or any other religious person … Evidence and Logic which supports YOUR CLAIM! What exactly is making the “choices”? Aren’t “YOU” (people) just your physical brain? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?
What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???
Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.
I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs, and the issue of What is YOU is essential to your “explanation” for your belief in magical “free willy” powers. How can you claim that “free will” exist when you cannot even explain what is making the “Choice”?!?!
Tricky
7th March 2003, 03:35 PM
(apologies for reposting, but I like The List to be visible.)
Wow! What a Post by Franko (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)! So many things to learn about that wonderful parsimoneous religion called Logical Deism. Have a look at the posts with the
red bullets
to see what is new today.
Franko, please correct anything here you feel is an innacurate statement of your beliefs. I promise I will fix it on The List.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=290098&highlight=logical+goddess+omnipotent#post290098)
Origins This universe is part of an omniverse.
The Omniverse, and all of its subsets (Universes, even You and I) are all reiterative hierarchical structures, i.e. fractals. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=346035&highlight=hierarchical#post346035)
The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=306446&highlight=progenitor#post306446)
After an Eternity of isolation, he was Infinity self-aware, but he had no idea what it would be like to experience individuality, so his Omniscience ended when Individuality began. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Your soul is a shard of what was once an Omnipotent Solipsist Entity, i.e. The Progenitor Solipsist. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
Your actions are controlled by the Logical Goddess, but your perceptions are not. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=364145&highlight=actions+perceptions#post364145)
The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343044&highlight=goddess+bound+fate#post343044) and logic. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343062&highlight=bound+logic#post343062)
Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
Consciousness creates matter.
Once Time achieves a certain level of self-awareness it begins to evolve (and expand). Your “extra” spatial dimensions are the early manifestations of “the matter”, but they are merely the byproduct of Time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=352045&highlight=time+selfawareness#post352045[/url)
The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics . (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=306475&highlight=configuration+stuff#post306475)
How Things Work One soul = one graviton.
Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
In the True reality Gravitons are ALL that exists (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
When two Gravitons interact they exchange Energy in the form of memes. This entanglement creates a decision junction in SpaceTime. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334873&highlight=spin+quality+mass+charge+velocity#post33 4873)
Information (i.e. Energy) can be either True or False. The total quantity of information manifest as Mass. The ratio of True information to False information (quality of Mass) manifests as Spin (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=363463&highlight=manifest#post363463)
Velocity is Speed of Processing (speed of thought, speed of comprehension) and Charge is Quality of Velocity (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=363463&highlight=manifest#post363463)
Your consciousness is like a fractal. It consist of Two parts, your Algorithm (your Soul, the Velocity of your particle), and your Database (your Graviton, the fractal image itself, the Mass of your particle). (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Two premises make a conclusion and two conclusions become premises which in turn make a new higher level conclusion. The height of your = hierarchy pyramid is your Velocity, the width of your pyramid is your Mass. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female. (http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=114229&highlight=determinism+interaction+gravitons#post11 4229)
The main difference between (males) and the LG, is that (males) don’t have Vaginas, and She doesn’t have a Penis. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334724&highlight=entire+Universe+is+essentially+an+illusi on#post334724[/url)
TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
True randomness does not exist.
If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=338621&highlight=matter+real+sense#post338621)
Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodynamics. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=338862&highlight=thermodymics#post338862)
A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334704&highlight=meme#post334704)
Gravitons are made of time (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=311266&highlight=information+gravitons#post311266)
The Logical Goddess cannot create gravitons, but she can destroy them. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=346035&highlight=hierarchical#post346035)
Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334724&highlight=merely+projections#post334724)
Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=342244&highlight=Simultaneous+Perception#post342244)
Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343594&highlight=conditioning%2Fcontrol#post343594)
The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=344438&highlight=consciousness+laws+time+gravity#post3444 38)
Space and Time are essentially the same thing, or more accurately “Space” (and it’s cousin the “matter”) are merely manifestations of extrapolated (evolved) Time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=352345&highlight=space+extrapolated#post352345)
Morality Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=305988&highlight=progenitor#post305988)
There are consequences for the things you do.
The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom. (http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=121324&highlight=database+expands#post121324)
Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=306200&highlight=anyone+commits+immoral+insane#post306200 )
Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=313714&highlight=situation+pattern+events#post313714)
Miscellaneous/The Lexicon Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time) (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=303319&highlight=karma#post303319)
No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=315164&highlight=figment+progenitor#post315164)
choices are preordained outputs (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=323334&highlight=choices+preordained+outputs#post323334)
In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=324718&highlight=eternity+period+time#post324718)
Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic there would be no Fate. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=344470&highlight=gravity+logic+possible#post344470)
Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=344372&highlight=Upchurch+explain+something#post344372)
Love is when the existence of another Graviton becomes more axiomatic then your own existence. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=351994&highlight=axiomatic#post351994)
A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=315470&highlight=remnant+furthermore#post315470)
billydkid
7th March 2003, 04:24 PM
You want to steal Franko's religion and be the next L. Ron Hubbard!
Tricky
7th March 2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by billydkid
You want to steal Franko's religion and be the next L. Ron Hubbard!
Dang! Busted! How did you figure me out, Billy? I thought it was the perfect crime. And are you related to BillyTK (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2287)?
wraith
7th March 2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Tricky
But no one is saying they can "perceive" no time. They say they can "imagine" no time. You do understand the difference, do you not?
You cant even imagine "no-time"!
Can you imagine a round square?
The same reason the universe came into existence (which evidence suggests was the Big Bang). Once things existed, then time had meaning.
In other words, you appeal to magic?
There is no logic behind the origin of the universe?
Hell, if there was no logic prior to the universe, why have any logic at all?
Do you honestly think that jumble of words makes any sense? And why the heck would you say "sounds like the work of Gravity" any more than you would say "sounds like the work of stellar radiation" or "sounds like the work of leprachauns"? You have failed to establish any sort of connection to gravity.
I thought that gravity and time were related?
I bet that you can even relate it to consciousness :eek:
For someone who can imagine "notime", this should be a glass of milk :rolleyes:
If consciousness is tied to gravity, then why do not astronauts become unconscious (or at least sluggish) while they are in a place where the effects of gravity are negligible? If you could show that to be true, then I'd call it evidence. Unfortunately for you, we have lots of evidence that this is not the case.
?
I dont get you..
Because it's the only one open. Your "consciousness creates matter" window is locked and boarded. You cannot show a single piece of evidence for the truth of that statement. Why is it you can imagine a disembodied consciousness, but cannot fathom a timeless state?
You have got to kidding me!
For one thing Tricky, for matter to become conscious, would take ONE HELL OF A JUMP to make.
I can imagine a "disembodied" consciousness because I dont believe in a "timeless state" or the pathetic little attempt of explaining the universe through the "matter creates consciousness" window.
Besides, we're perceiving energy in some pattern that we call "matter".
I have lots of evidence for physical brains. I've seen a number of them. There are whole branches of science dedicated to them. I have yet to see a brain made of energy. Please show me one and I'll put some credence in your statement.
Matter does not create consciousness!
We're perceiving energy in some pattern that we call "matter".
Youre thinking of some brain made of some etheral substance or something of that nature, floating around the place :rolleyes:
Still buying into Pascal's Wager (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/#5) eh wraith? It is a simple task to debunk it.
debunk what?
It's very simple, God either exists or not. Placing your bets on magic isnt that wise ;)
wraith
7th March 2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your very next post. "An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future." is a pretty good one coming from a fatalist....
What are you saying here?
Tricky
7th March 2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by wraith
You cant even imagine "no-time"!
Can you imagine a round square?
Actually I can imagine no time. It is not a logical contradiction like "round square". I am sorry your imagination is so poor.
Originally posted by wraith
In other words, you appeal to magic?
There is no logic behind the origin of the universe?
Hell, if there was no logic prior to the universe, why have any logic at all?
Please use my words instead of yours when you describe my beliefs.
Logic, of course, is a human construct for evaluating the consistancy of beliefs. As far as I know, there was no logic prior to the development of the brain. Any logic you extend to times before that is ex post facto.
Originally posted by wraith
I thought that gravity and time were related?
I bet that you can even relate it to consciousness :eek:
For someone who can imagine "notime", this should be a glass of milk :rolleyes:
In a sense, gravity and time are related. Gravity is a result of mass, which (most likely) didn't exist before the Big Bang. Time is related to the sequence of things happening, which (possibly) started when "things" appeared at the Big Bang. In that sense they are related.
However, a statement like "gravitons are made of time" is patently ridiculous. Time has no mass. Gravitons are (if they exist) a consequence of mass.
Originally posted by wraith
I dont get you..
I know. It is sad.
Originally posted by wraith
You have got to kidding me!
For one thing Tricky, for matter to become conscious, would take ONE HELL OF A JUMP to make.
Yes, if it happened instantaneously, but it is a gradual thing, one for which there is one hell of a lot of evidence. "Consciousness makes Matter", on the other hand, has zero evidence.
Originally posted by wraith
I can imagine a "disembodied" consciousness because I dont believe in a "timeless state" or the pathetic little attempt of explaining the universe through the "matter creates consciousness" window.
Yes, I can "imagine" a disembodied consciousness too. It makes for great sci-fi. But show me a single consciousness outside of a body in the real world. Just one. There are billions of consciousnesses within bodies, many of which you can see every day. Now explain how your disembodied consciousness makes sense. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by wraith
Besides, we're perceiving energy in some pattern that we call "matter".
But it's not really "matter"? What happens if you whack your non-material thumb with a hammer? If behaves in the way as matter is described then it is matter. You can argue how it is really energy until your thumbnail falls off, for all the good that does you.
Originally posted by wraith
Youre thinking of some brain made of some etheral substance or something of that nature, floating around the place :rolleyes:
Well then, what is this disembodied brain made of? Energy? Well, according to you, so is mine, but mine is tangible. Why does this "universal" brain get a pass on material existence? And how can you tell? It sounds to me like you have imagined it. Perhaps it is made of "Dream Matter".:D
Originally posted by wraith
debunk what?
It's very simple, God either exists or not. Placing your bets on magic isnt that wise ;)
Okay, then define God for me. How about we say that God exists, but it is the Catholic God which punishes people for heresy. In that case, it is the deep fryer for you. You still wanna bet?
wraith
7th March 2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Tricky
Actually I can imagine no time. It is not a logical contradiction like "round square". I am sorry your imagination is so poor.
So you can imagine what it's like to be a rock?
Please use my words instead of yours when you describe my beliefs.
If you believe in magic, then I will use words like "magic"
Logic, of course, is a human construct for evaluating the consistancy of beliefs. As far as I know, there was no logic prior to the development of the brain. Any logic you extend to times before that is ex post facto.[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh really?
So everything was completely magical before the formation of the "brain"?
So illogical systems, create logical systems? Yeah thats sounds logical :rolleyes:
In a sense, gravity and time are related. Gravity is a result of mass, which (most likely) didn't exist before the Big Bang.
You sure about that? ;)
Time is related to the sequence of things happening, which (possibly) started when "things" appeared at the Big Bang. In that sense they are related.
However, a statement like "gravitons are made of time" is patently ridiculous. Time has no mass. Gravitons are (if they exist) a consequence of mass.
Just what are perceptions without Time Tricky?
You do realise that to imagine a "timeless state" requires Time :rolleyes:
Yes, if it happened instantaneously, but it is a gradual thing, one for which there is one hell of a lot of evidence. "Consciousness makes Matter", on the other hand, has zero evidence.
negative. EVEN if you had billions and billions of years, matter would have to make an "infinite jump" to create consciousness
Yes, I can "imagine" a disembodied consciousness too. It makes for great sci-fi. But show me a single consciousness outside of a body in the real world. Just one. There are billions of consciousnesses within bodies, many of which you can see every day. Now explain how your disembodied consciousness makes sense. :rolleyes:
As much sense as consciousness perceiving energy as "matter"
But it's not really "matter"? What happens if you whack your non-material thumb with a hammer? If behaves in the way as matter is described then it is matter. You can argue how it is really energy until your thumbnail falls off, for all the good that does you.
I dont think that even you understand what you just said :)
Well then, what is this disembodied brain made of? Energy? Well, according to you, so is mine, but mine is tangible. Why does this "universal" brain get a pass on material existence? And how can you tell? It sounds to me like you have imagined it. Perhaps it is made of "Dream Matter".:D
Ive never heard of matter creating energy
Okay, then define God for me. How about we say that God exists, but it is the Catholic God which punishes people for heresy. In that case, it is the deep fryer for you. You still wanna bet?
God is able to generate this universe.
What makes you think that the Catholics perception of God is True? Heresy doesnt adhere to Logic, but sure, Ill bet ;)
Unas
7th March 2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by wraith
Ive never heard of matter creating energyLight a match.
The reactions of the substances in the match head liberate energy from the chemical bonds within those substances.
Perhaps wraith needs a little more experience in the real world before he makes these remarkably ignorant statements. Or perhaps he simply needs to give more thought to his arguments.
Franko
7th March 2003, 08:58 PM
You want to steal Franko's religion and be the next L. Ron Hubbard!
Well, you see there, Billyjean that is where “Tricky” is Tricking you. He already thinks he is L. Ron Hubbard (he’s just not telling you).
Ever notice how he seems to have a lot of difficulty explaining what SPECIFIC POINT he disagrees with, and the SPECIFIC REASON why he disagrees. I guess he thinks if he just keeps making woo-woo posts somehow (as if by magic) all his troubles are simply going to disappear …
… maybe he can use his magic powers to simply wish his troubles away? He seems to have employed every other dirty “Trick”(y) in the book.
Unas
7th March 2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Franko
...stupid A-Theist troll... your hypocritical little mouth...Franko's comments are an excellent example of the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad hominem (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm). They are, of course, worthless due to lack of content.
Unas
7th March 2003, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Franko
He seems to have employed every other dirty “Trick”(y) in the book. Franko chooses to post another content-free argumentum ad hominem (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm).
Tricky
7th March 2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by wraith
So you can imagine what it's like to be a rock?
Yes, I can imagine it. I don't know that my conception would be correct, since I don't normally converse with rocks. That is unless you count my attempts to contact the brains of Logical Deists. ;)
Originally posted by wraith
If you believe in magic, then I will use words like "magic"
And if I don't believe in magic, you won't use the words? Very good then. I don't believe in magic. Any claims that I do come from you and you only.
If I claim you believe in astrology, does that make it true? By your thinking, it would. Not by mine.
Originally posted by Tricky
Logic, of course, is a human construct for evaluating the consistancy of beliefs. As far as I know, there was no logic prior to the development of the brain. Any logic you extend to times before that is ex post facto.
Originally posted by wraith
Oh really?
So everything was completely magical before the formation of the "brain"?
Nope. It was just nature. Nature doesn't give a rat's ass about logic. Logic is a purely human construct. Of course, you can look at what has happened in the past and apply logic to it, for example, you see bones of animals that are no longer extant and logically deduce that they were once alive, but nature itself goes through no such mental gymnastics. Or at least, we have no evidence that it does.
This makes me think of the following scene.
Nature: (soliloquy) Let's see, I could make some more dinosaurs which pretty much live within the confines of what is available, or I could make some humans which will use up the fossil fuel I have been building for ages, destroy the atmosphere which I have been building for ages, and wipe out many of the species which I have been working on for ages. What is my logical choice?
Does that sound like a "logical" entity to you?
Originally posted by wraith
You sure about that? ;)
No, I'm not 100% sure about anything. Are you? Do you feel you are incapable of being wrong?
Originally posted by wraith
Just what are perceptions without Time Tricky?
They don't exist. The only way there could be a timeless state is if nothing exists. Not matter. Not perceptions. Not gravity. Shall I write this out for you in block letters?
Originally posted by wraith
You do realise that to imagine a "timeless state" requires Time :rolleyes:
Of course I realise that you must first be able to have something before you can have the absence of something. In order to understand a joyless life, I must know what joy is. In order to understand being broke, I must know what money is. In order to understand Logical Deists, I must know what brains are.
Originally posted by wraith
negative. EVEN if you had billions and billions of years, matter would have to make an "infinite jump" to create consciousness
Uh huh. And yet humans can create a consciousness in only nine months from the ordinary materials in their environment. You really have little faith in nature, don't you?
Originally posted by wraith
As much sense as consciousness perceiving energy as "matter"
Then show me. I would truly love to know how a disembodied consciousness creates matter. Oh yeah, I have read Franko's creation myth, and even listed it's major points. But to me, it is nonsense. Please resolve the tangle of contradictions and outright prevarication that is the body of Logical Deism. We will all be "eternally" grateful.
Originally posted by wraith
I dont think that even you understand what you just said :)
Well then put it to the test, wraith. I have proposed an experiment for you to test materialism. Why don't you go ahead and try it? If your thumb is only "imagined" then there will be no pain. No, don't ask me to try it. I already believe in materialism. Do you need to borrow a hammer?
Originally posted by wraith
Ive never heard of matter creating energy.
And have you ever heard of energy creating matter? You do realize, I hope, that E=MC^2 can also be written as M=E/C^2. If not, I recommend remedial math.
Originally posted by wraith
God is able to generate this universe.
Oops. You said "God". Franko will slap your wrist for not saying "Goddess". :D
If God generates the universe, what generates God? You want to buy a turtle?
Originally posted by wraith
What makes you think that the Catholics perception of God is True? Heresy doesnt adhere to Logic, but sure, Ill bet ;)
I don't believe in any perception of God that I have ever heard. You seem to think that if God exists, then it is the God that you have envisioned, yet there are countless different ideas of what God is. If yours is not the right one, then you have lost the wager, because you may be punished for believing the wrong one. The Christian god says that people will not go to heaven unless they accept Christ. Do you believe that? If you don't, and Christians are right about God, then all Hell's gonna break loose when you die. :D
So which color of "God" are you gonna put your chips on, Maverick? You can't cover every square on the table.
Franko
7th March 2003, 10:04 PM
So Unac ... avoiding this question?
DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT MATTER CREATES ENERGY??? (ever heard of "thermodynamics"?)
The Wraith:
Ive never heard of matter creating energy [according to pseudo-Materialism]
Unis:
Light a match.
The reactions of the substances in the match head liberate energy from the chemical bonds within those substances.
Perhaps wraith needs a little more experience in the real world before he makes these remarkably ignorant statements. Or perhaps he simply needs to give more thought to his arguments.
all emphasis added – mine.
The Wraith clearly said CREATING which is obviously not the same as LIBERATING unless you are a stupid A-Theist troll in the habit of making remarkably ignorant statements and embarrassing any serious “free-thinking”, “open-minded”, Skeptic misfortunate enough to call himself “Atheist” by quirk of Fate alone. Perhaps you simply need to give more thought before you open your hypocritical little mouth, and remind yourself that this is a SKEPTIC’S forum, NOT Infidels.org (homepage of Atheism).
Unas
7th March 2003, 10:11 PM
Franko continues to remove and repost the same text. He appears to prefer to do this, rather than conduct an honest discussion.
My original answer (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=371400#post371400) to his post stands. Franko is interested solely in hurling invective. Worthwhile debate with such individuals is not possible.
Originally posted by Franko
So Unac ... avoiding this question?
DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT MATTER CREATES ENERGY??? (ever heard of "thermodynamics"?)Note Franko's intellectual dishonesty here. That question was not in his earlier post (which he has since removed). It is therefore not possible that anyone could have "avoided" it.
Tricky
7th March 2003, 10:16 PM
So tell me Franko. The coinflip comes up heads and there is a God. Unfortunately for you it is the Catholic version of God. What level of Hell do you think you will go to, heretic?
wraith
8th March 2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Tricky
Yes, I can imagine it. I don't know that my conception would be correct, since I don't normally converse with rocks. That is unless you count my attempts to contact the brains of Logical Deists.
Oh you can imagine it?
Well, that state of "imagining" what it's like to be a rock requires perceiving time...and I dont think rocks can do that, so try again Twix ;)
And if I don't believe in magic, you won't use the words? Very good then. I don't believe in magic. Any claims that I do come from you and you only.
If you call TLOP popping out from the void willy nilly logical, then youre clearly insane. ANY sane person would call that magical
Nope. It was just nature. Nature doesn't give a rat's ass about logic. Logic is a purely human construct. Of course, you can look at what has happened in the past and apply logic to it, for example, you see bones of animals that are no longer extant and logically deduce that they were once alive, but nature itself goes through no such mental gymnastics. Or at least, we have no evidence that it does.
You know, I wonder what the atheists number 1 fallacy is. Question begging or double standards? :rolleyes:
This makes me think of the following scene.
Nature: (soliloquy) Let's see, I could make some more dinosaurs which pretty much live within the confines of what is available, or I could make some humans which will use up the fossil fuel I have been building for ages, destroy the atmosphere which I have been building for ages, and wipe out many of the species which I have been working on for ages. What is my logical choice?
Does that sound like a "logical" entity to you?
An atheist that doesnt want to take responsibility for his actions.
No, I'm not 100% sure about anything. Are you? Do you feel you are incapable of being wrong?
Yes, Yes I do haha
In all seriousness, you have to look to logic.
They don't exist. The only way there could be a timeless state is if nothing exists. Not matter. Not perceptions. Not gravity. Shall I write this out for you in block letters?
If you had no consciousness, then there would be no time. If this was the case, then we wouldnt be having this little discussion.
This universe needs time to function. Before any consciousnesses were around on earth, there would have been "no time".
So just how did the universe form with no time exactly? :eek:
wraith says: You do realise that to imagine a "timeless state" requires Time?
Tricky: Of course I realise that you must first be able to have something before you can have the absence of something. In order to understand a joyless life, I must know what joy is. In order to understand being broke, I must know what money is. In order to understand Logical Deists, I must know what brains are.
Was that an answer to my question? :rolleyes:
Uh huh. And yet humans can create a consciousness in only nine months from the ordinary materials in their environment. You really have little faith in nature, don't you?
People having children is evidence of matter creating consciousness?
Are you trying to hitch a ride Tricky? ;)
Then show me. I would truly love to know how a disembodied consciousness creates matter. Oh yeah, I have read Franko's creation myth, and even listed it's major points. But to me, it is nonsense. Please resolve the tangle of contradictions and outright prevarication that is the body of Logical Deism. We will all be "eternally" grateful.
Matter is the result of the exchange of energy between two consciousnesses. Is the "matter" in your dreams "real"?
Well then put it to the test, wraith. I have proposed an experiment for you to test materialism. Why don't you go ahead and try it? If your thumb is only "imagined" then there will be no pain. No, don't ask me to try it. I already believe in materialism. Do you need to borrow a hammer?
I dont follow solipsism sorry
And have you ever heard of energy creating matter? You do realize, I hope, that E=MC^2 can also be written as M=E/C^2. If not, I recommend remedial math.
So if you rearrange the equation, so that "M" is on it's own, that now implies that matter creates energy?
While we're at it, lets get "C" on it's own so that we can say C creates mass and energy!
Oops. You said "God". Franko will slap your wrist for not saying "Goddess". :D
I use the word "God" simply to reprent the "Higher Power".
When I use "God", it doesnt mean that I think that God is a man. God may well be a woman.
Besides, Id rather take orders from a woman haha
You listening Q-Cumber? ;)
If God generates the universe, what generates God? You want to buy a turtle?
The same thing that generates us. Time/Gravity.
I don't believe in any perception of God that I have ever heard. You seem to think that if God exists, then it is the God that you have envisioned, yet there are countless different ideas of what God is. If yours is not the right one, then you have lost the wager, because you may be punished for believing the wrong one. The Christian god says that people will not go to heaven unless they accept Christ. Do you believe that? If you don't, and Christians are right about God, then all Hell's gonna break loose when you die. :D
Most religions refer to the same God. It's the way that God is perceived that is different. For example, some people may say that God is female while others say the God is male. It's still God that they are referring to. The religion with the most accurate description of God is the one that has the greatest comprehension of logic.
If you ackowledge God, the Soul and that youre responsible for your own actions, then youre "in."
It's really the atheist thats...well...:eek:
So which color of "God" are you gonna put your chips on, Maverick? You can't cover every square on the table.
haha I dont need to ;)
wraith
8th March 2003, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Unas
Light a match.
The reactions of the substances in the match head liberate energy from the chemical bonds within those substances.
Perhaps wraith needs a little more experience in the real world before he makes these remarkably ignorant statements. Or perhaps he simply needs to give more thought to his arguments.
Releasing something is the same as creating something?
Tricky
8th March 2003, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by wraith
Oh you can imagine it?
Well, that state of "imagining" what it's like to be a rock requires perceiving time...and I dont think rocks can do that, so try again Twix ;)
Does it? How do you know what rocks "perceive". Rocks change with time (and heat and pressure). I don't know if they "perceive" it, but you obviously seem to. Give us the benefit of your geological insight, wraith. Rocks have gravity. Do they not also have gravitons?
Originally posted by wraith
If you call TLOP popping out from the void willy nilly logical, then youre clearly insane. ANY sane person would call that magical
And you call yourself a "sane" person? Want to go over that list of (magical) LD beliefs again wraith? Let's see how sane you are. Or are you afraid to discuss it? Are you afraid of being caught in the obvious logical fallacies that LD has proposed. I tell you what. I will link all the things that LDeists have said and you link all the things that I have said. We will see who looks the more sane. Come on, lad. I'm an old man. You are young. Show me what you got.
Originally posted by wraith
You know, I wonder what the atheists number 1 fallacy is. Question begging or double standards? :rolleyes:
Do you even know what "begging the question" means? If so, show me. Then show me where I have done so. I can show you numerous examples of where LDeists have done it. Again, I challenge you. Put up or shut up.
Originally posted by wraith
An atheist that doesnt want to take responsibility for his actions.
I take all responsibility for my actions. I challenge you to prove otherwise. Come on, youngster. You can surely come up with at least one quote where I have said I don't take responsibility for my actions. What? No? Surely such a perspicacious lad as yourself wouldn't Lie???!!:eek:
Originally posted by wraith
Yes, Yes I do haha
In all seriousness, you have to look to logic.
You are 100% sure? Then it should be no problem for you to prove your beliefs. Let's hear you predict who will win the NASCAR race at Atlanta tomorrow. What? Can't do it? What a wuss this goddess of yours is. She can't do a bloody thing! Yet you are "100% sure" she exists. Pardon me if I snicker.
Originally posted by wraith
If you had no consciousness, then there would be no time. If this was the case, then we wouldnt be having this little discussion.
This universe needs time to function. Before any consciousnesses were around on earth, there would have been "no time".
So just how did the universe form with no time exactly? :eek:
I see you have been ignoring your QM workbook again. Shame shame, wraith. I may have to ground you.
Tell me again how the Progenitor Solipsist came to exist. The familiar fairy tales are always the best.
Originally posted by wraith
Matter is the result of the exchange of energy between two consciousnesses. Is the "matter" in your dreams "real"?
There is no "matter" in my dreams. They are imaginary. Sort of like your Logical Goddess. Now explain again how this exchage of energy (Franko says "memes") results in matter. Then explain how this matter is imaginary. Then explain how gravitons are made out of time and memes and gravity and souls and shards of the Progenitor Solipsist. Then explain how they have charge and mass and velocity and spin. Try to do so without violating any known laws of physics. If you can, then I will grant that there is such a thing as magic.:rolleyes:
Originally posted by wraith
I dont follow solipsism sorry
You don't? I'm afraid you will have to turn in you Logical Deist license then. All LDeists believe in solipsism.
Originally posted by wraith
So if you rearrange the equation, so that "M" is on it's own, that now implies that matter creates energy?\
No, you dunderhead. It doesn't imply anything. Matter and energy can be converted to one another in quantities described by the formula. They both exist. What makes you think that one has precidence over the other? To say "all matter is energy" is as stupid as saying "all energy is matter". Lots of things can be converted to other things. Why is this a difficult concept for you?
Originally posted by wraith
I use the word "God" simply to reprent the "Higher Power".
When I use "God", it doesnt mean that I think that God is a man. God may well be a woman.
Then you are not a Logical Deist. Logical Deists believe that God is a woman. Franko will be crushed by your defection.
Originally posted by wraith
Most religions refer to the same God. It's the way that God is perceived that is different. For example, some people may say that God is female while others say the God is male. It's still God that they are referring to. The religion with the most accurate description of God is the one that has the greatest comprehension of logic.
Completely wrong, wraith. Religions have vastly different concepts of God. If you believe otherwise, then I strongly advise you to take a course in comparitive religion. Are they all right? No, they cannot be for they contradict each other. Which one is most logical? Certainly not Logical Deism. It is a hodgepodge of conflicting statements. Naturalism is probably the closest to conforming to logic. But of course, naturalism is virtually identical to atheism. Sorry, wraith.
Originally posted by wraith
If you ackowledge God, the Soul and that youre responsible for your own actions, then youre "in."
Not according to Christianity or Islam or Judaism. Are you saying those religions are wrong about God? You want to flip a coin to see who is correct? My advice is don't bet. There are too many factors to allow for. If you pick the wrong God, you will wind up in hell. The safest bet is to pick none, then you can always say, "but I really liked you best" when faced with the eternal overlord. :D
Tricky
10th March 2003, 11:01 AM
I really can't pass on this opportunity to update The List. Check out the new entry at the end of "How Things Work". Franko has proven Einstein and the special theory of relativity to be incorrect.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=290098&highlight=logical+goddess+omnipotent#post290098)
Origins This universe is part of an omniverse.
The Omniverse, and all of its subsets (Universes, even You and I) are all reiterative hierarchical structures, i.e. fractals. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=346035&highlight=hierarchical#post346035)
The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=306446&highlight=progenitor#post306446)
After an Eternity of isolation, he was Infinity self-aware, but he had no idea what it would be like to experience individuality, so his Omniscience ended when Individuality began. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Your soul is a shard of what was once an Omnipotent Solipsist Entity, i.e. The Progenitor Solipsist. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
Your actions are controlled by the Logical Goddess, but your perceptions are not. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=364145&highlight=actions+perceptions#post364145)
The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343044&highlight=goddess+bound+fate#post343044) and logic. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343062&highlight=bound+logic#post343062)
Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
Consciousness creates matter.
Once Time achieves a certain level of self-awareness it begins to evolve (and expand). Your “extra” spatial dimensions are the early manifestations of “the matter”, but they are merely the byproduct of Time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=352045&highlight=time+selfawareness#post352045[/url)
The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics . (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=306475&highlight=configuration+stuff#post306475)
How Things Work One soul = one graviton.
Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
In the True reality Gravitons are ALL that exists (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
When two Gravitons interact they exchange Energy in the form of memes. This entanglement creates a decision junction in SpaceTime. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334873&highlight=spin+quality+mass+charge+velocity#post33 4873)
Information (i.e. Energy) can be either True or False. The total quantity of information manifest as Mass. The ratio of True information to False information (quality of Mass) manifests as Spin (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=363463&highlight=manifest#post363463)
Velocity is Speed of Processing (speed of thought, speed of comprehension) and Charge is Quality of Velocity (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=363463&highlight=manifest#post363463)
Your consciousness is like a fractal. It consist of Two parts, your Algorithm (your Soul, the Velocity of your particle), and your Database (your Graviton, the fractal image itself, the Mass of your particle). (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
Two premises make a conclusion and two conclusions become premises which in turn make a new higher level conclusion. The height of your = hierarchy pyramid is your Velocity, the width of your pyramid is your Mass. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female. (http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=114229&highlight=determinism+interaction+gravitons#post11 4229)
The main difference between (males) and the LG, is that (males) don’t have Vaginas, and She doesn’t have a Penis. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=370106&highlight=entanglement#post370106)
The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334724&highlight=entire+Universe+is+essentially+an+illusi on#post334724[/url)
TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
True randomness does not exist.
If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=338621&highlight=matter+real+sense#post338621)
Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodynamics. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=338862&highlight=thermodymics#post338862)
A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334704&highlight=meme#post334704)
Gravitons are made of time (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=311266&highlight=information+gravitons#post311266)
The Logical Goddess cannot create gravitons, but she can destroy them. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=346035&highlight=hierarchical#post346035)
Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=334724&highlight=merely+projections#post334724)
Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=342244&highlight=Simultaneous+Perception#post342244)
Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=343594&highlight=conditioning%2Fcontrol#post343594)
The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=344438&highlight=consciousness+laws+time+gravity#post3444 38)
Space and Time are essentially the same thing, or more accurately “Space” (and it’s cousin the “matter”) are merely manifestations of extrapolated (evolved) Time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=352345&highlight=space+extrapolated#post352345)
Your subconscious mind and your conscious mind are not exactly the same entity. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=369952&highlight=conscious+exactly#post369952)
Two objects traveling from the same origin at speeds greater than half the speed of light are moving apart relative to each other at speeds greater than the speed of light. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=374054&highlight=asteroids+speed+of+light#post374054)
Morality Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=305988&highlight=progenitor#post305988)
There are consequences for the things you do.
The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom. (http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=121324&highlight=database+expands#post121324)
Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=306200&highlight=anyone+commits+immoral+insane#post306200 )
Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=313714&highlight=situation+pattern+events#post313714)
Miscellaneous/The Lexicon Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time) (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=303319&highlight=karma#post303319)
No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=315164&highlight=figment+progenitor#post315164)
choices are preordained outputs (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=323334&highlight=choices+preordained+outputs#post323334)
In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=324718&highlight=eternity+period+time#post324718)
Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic there would be no Fate. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=344470&highlight=gravity+logic+possible#post344470)
Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=344372&highlight=Upchurch+explain+something#post344372)
Love is when the existence of another Graviton becomes more axiomatic then your own existence. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=351994&highlight=axiomatic#post351994)
A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=315470&highlight=remnant+furthermore#post315470)
Franko
10th March 2003, 12:54 PM
Tricky:
Franko has proven Einstein and the special theory of relativity to be incorrect.
Hehehe … At least You A-Theists are consistent; ALWAYS so quick to jump to conclusions based on NO EVIDENCE or almost NO EVIDENCE.
You know what I find odd about You Trixy … ? I know you have told me you are married, but you don’t act like a married man. Have you been married a long Time?
Tricky
10th March 2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Franko
Hehehe … At least You A-Theists are consistent; ALWAYS so quick to jump to conclusions based on NO EVIDENCE or almost NO EVIDENCE.
The comment at the top was editorial, based on your attempt to prove that objects could move apart at speeds greater than the speed of light. However, the rest of the list is almost verbatum from your quotes. And if it is wrong in any way, I invite you to make changes to correct it. These are your beliefs, Franko. I would think that you would be proud of them.
Originally posted by Franko
You know what I find odd about You Trixy … ? I know you have told me you are married, but you don’t act like a married man. Have you been married a long Time?
Really? Perhaps you just have a misconception about how married people act. This may come as a shock to you, but there is a lot of variation in the way people behave.
However, since you mention it, my wife and I will be celebrating our anniversary with a Carribean cruise the third week of March. I know you will miss my posts, so I thought I'd let you know in advance in case you want to take that week off too.
Franko
10th March 2003, 02:40 PM
Tricky:
Really? Perhaps you just have a misconception about how married people act. This may come as a shock to you, but there is a lot of variation in the way people behave.
However, since you mention it, my wife and I will be celebrating our anniversary with a Carribean cruise the third week of March. I know you will miss my posts, so I thought I'd let you know in advance in case you want to take that week off too.
Ahhh, well I hope you and Mrs. Tricky enjoy yourself.
Perhaps I will take some time off? ... Do you think you can imagine me going on a "vacation" too? Try and imagine me going to some place really really nice ... :cool:
Tricky
10th March 2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Franko
Ahhh, well I hope you and Mrs. Tricky enjoy yourself.
Perhaps I will take some time off? ... Do you think you can imagine me going on a "vacation" too? Try and imagine me going to some place really really nice ... :cool:
Thanks, we will.
What sort of places do you like to go? I'm more a fan of scenic beauty, especially geological. New Zealand would be next on my list. Ms. Tricky prefers historical stuff with lots of churches and museums. She wants to go to Italy. We usually split the difference.
I figure you as more of a seashore loving person. Babes in bikinis and great surf. I could be wrong.
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