French Immigration Minister: ban immigrants who wear veils

[Thunder]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580405,00.html?test=latestnews

Wow. First Switzerland's referendum and now this. Maybe Europe IS at war with Islam after all.

:(

[INRM]

I understand refusing to adopt sharia laws, and refusing to let muslims impose their beliefs on everybody else. That is acceptable, but this, along with the Swiss outlawing minarettes (sp?) seems to be beyond this.

Are they trying to alienate muslims? You know that's just going to get more muslims disgruntled, and may even serve as a recruiting tool for terrorism.

[Thunder]

the message from the French and Swiss appears to be:

"we welcome and respect you. just don't act like Muslims."

what's next, banning Orthodox and Hasidic Jews from wearing black?

[Dragoonster]

"I want the wearing of the full veil to be systematically considered as proof of insufficient integration into French society, creating an obstacle to gaining (French) nationality," he said.

Hm, so ideal French society is explicitly non-Muslim (or non-Muslim-veil-wearing), if I'm reading this right.

I thought WWIII would be a US-vs-USSR or vs-Middle East thing, but maybe Europe is determined to continue their streak.

[Francesca R]

Hm, so ideal French society is explicitly non-Muslim (or non-Muslim-veil-wearing).Definitely not the former, since they have more (as a %) than anywhere else in Europe, not including Turkey.

They seem to want them to dress different though, or stay non-French.

[Thunder]

I thought WWIII would be a US-vs-USSR or vs-Middle East thing, but maybe Europe is determined to continue their streak.

If Europe goes to war with Islam, you can count me out.

This is the New World, and we live by new ideas. Like tolerance and freedom. Ideas the Europeans seem to still lack.

[Praktik]

Hmmm... why stop at headscarves?

Why not ban all immigrants that talk funny??

[Cleon]

Hmmm... why stop at headscarves?

Why not ban all immigrants that talk funny??

Because that would include the French.

[Dragoonster]

Definitely not the former, since they have more (as a %) than anywhere else in Europe, not including Turkey.

They seem to want them to dress different though, or stay non-French.

I find it hard to believe immigration policy or social integration would be concerned with fashion. Does he also want bans on African dashikis, the black suits worn by some Jews as Parky mentions , and Russian fur hats? Seems likely this is entirely about excluding Muslims specifically, with the veils as the pretense.

And the logical implication is that if potential French citizens are kept out because their veils aren't a part of French society, then current French citizens who wear the veils shouldn't be considered part of "integrated" French society. The article says he wants a ban on citizens wearing them too, so...what exactly is not considered a part of French society? The fashion or the person wearing it?

The reason I'd support a ban in the public is the same as a ban on ski masks--security against robbery and such. But this dude's motivations seem far more disturbing.

[Thunder]

Hasidic Jews not only dress very differently then secular Westerners, but they insist on living seperately, and limiting encounters with non-Haridim to a bare minimum.

Why Hasidic Jews and their ways are OK in France, but Muslim headscarves are NOT ok, is beyond me. This is clearly about anti-Muslim bigotry.

[MrQhuest]

How do you verify the ID of someone when you cannot see their face?
Russian fur hats, Dashikis, Black suits, do not impede identification. I am not a French citizen, but I assume that the French require Photo ID's?
There have been issues in North America where Women refusing to allow their pictures to be taken, have been refused ID's and even drivers licenses.
In my opinion, a photo ID of a person in a burka and a full face veil, is redundant.

MrQ

After looking over the article, I agree the comment that veils are "considered as proof of insufficient integration into French society," is rubbish.

[GreyArea]

It appears that very few women (http://www.rfi.fr/actuen/articles/115/article_4567.asp) in France wear the burqa or the niqab. Remember, we aren't talking about the hijab. (An interesting photo gallery which shows all three of these varieties (and more) can be seen here (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ftimages/2009/01/16/1231608943729.html).)

According to Time Magazine columnist Azadeh Moaveni (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1547572,00.html), most Muslim women in the Middle East whom she has met find the fully-covering attire too extreme. And Dounia Bouzar, described here (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1905554,00.html) as a specialist in Muslim Affairs and a Muslim woman, also makes this distinction, having opposed France's headscarf ban but favoring restrictions on the burqa and niqba. If the more-restrictive forms of attire really are so unpopular, I don't think they will become common in Western Europe, especially as secularization and assimilation eventually (http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2007/06/mybrotherthebomber/) influence the third- or fourth-generation citizens (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article542420.ece) and later generations. So is it really worth legislating? If anything, that could create a backlash, the attraction of the forbidden.

The question for me is "How do we free these women, or at least their daughters, from Salafist and Wahhabist control?" There may be subtler, smarter ways to open doors (http://www.roflposters.com/i-can-only-show-you-the-door-youre-the-one-who-has-to-walk-through-it/945571/) that these women can then walk through.

[gtc]

Definitely not the former, since they have more (as a %) than anywhere else in Europe, not including Turkey.

They seem to want them to dress different though, or stay non-French.

To nitpick - Russia, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia and Bosnia have a greater percentage of Muslims than France.

[Magyar]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,580405,00.html?test=latestnews

Wow. First Switzerland's referendum and now this. Maybe Europe IS at war with Islam after all.

:(

Right, because in most muslim countries i am free to practice christianity in my own home
or wear a crusifix necklace without ANY consequences - {insert slapping dog here}

forget DEMANDING that I should be allowed to immagrate there and open a church.

[Thunder]

Right, because in most muslim countries i am free to practice christianity in my own home
or wear a crusifix necklace without ANY consequences - {insert slapping dog here}

or, in other words:

"mommy...he hit me first!!!"

[Pardalis]

First post posted at around noon, and only 15 posts so far.

If this had happened in the US, we'd be at page 20 by now in this thread.

[Thunder]

First post posted at around noon, and only 15 posts so far.

If this had happened in the US, we'd be at page 20 by now in this thread.

if someone at ICE made a comment like the one the French immigration minister said, he would be fired. and rightfully so.

unlike Europe, the USA is the land of opportunity for all people. even if you wanna remain private.

[lionking]

I have no problem with people wearing veils in public, but there are circumstances where this can be problematic. We have an employee who is a fervant muslim, and goes veilless when in company of other women, but whenever a male customer walks in she dons the full face veil. There have been complaints that people do not understand her, which is understandable given the importance of non-verbal communication. I think a business has the right to say "no veils at work" but of course we will not do that due to the liklihood of being dragged before the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission.

I also wonder what would happen if a New Guinea employee decided he wanted to follow his religious convictions and begin to wear a penis gourd to work.

[KingMerv00]

Right, because in most muslim countries i am free to practice christianity in my own home
or wear a crusifix necklace without ANY consequences - {insert slapping dog here}

forget DEMANDING that I should be allowed to immagrate there and open a church.

So you think France and those Muslim countries are both wrong. Glad to hear it.

[kerikiwi]

I also wonder what would happen if a New Guinea employee decided he wanted to follow his religious convictions and begin to wear a penis gourd to work.
The penis gourd is a religious conviction? I don't think so.
In my travels in PNG I never saw a man wearing only a penis gourd.
Where did you see it?
How about you base your arguments on fact and not false analogies?

[lionking]

The penis gourd is a religious conviction? I don't think so.
In my travels in PNG I never saw a man wearing only a penis gourd.
Where did you see it?
How about you base your arguments on fact and not false analogies?
National Geographic Discovery Channel, and also on some websites I've just checked. It seems to be something which happens in the Highlands and not Moresby or Lae. Maybe you travels in PNG are not that definitive.

ETA. Comments about the Eipo culture of PNG:

It was held at intervals of about 10 years, depending on how many boys were available for this costly ceremony. Coinitiates kept a lifelong bond. Second and third stages involved, respectively, the bestowal of the cane waistband and penis gourd

Read more: http://www.everyculture.com/Oceania/Eipo-Religion-and-Expressive-Culture.html#ixzz0a1ZFyNPG (http://www.everyculture.com/Oceania/Eipo-Religion-and-Expressive-Culture.html#ixzz0a1ZFyNPG)

[The Fool]

politicians seeking the votes of bigots.....whats new?

[Flo]

politicians seeking the votes of bigots.....whats new?


You've got it in one ! Local elections in less than 3 months, the left is going to retain or win some regions, Our Mini-Wannabe-Napoleon is trying to pull the same trick that got Chirac elected the last time: stir fear and resentment against "muslims" (= immigrants from the South of the Meditterranean sea and their children, grand-children, etc.), thus making sure bigots will vote for the far-right on the first round and for them en mass on the second round.

Just like the minarets, the burka is a symbol, used to tell the populace: "look how they are invading our country, perverting our values, looking to convert us all, and to degrade our women".

[The Fool]

You've got it in one ! Local elections in less than 3 months, the left is going to retain or win some regions, Our Mini-Wannabe-Napoleon is trying to pull the same trick that got Chirac elected the last time: stir fear and resentment against "muslims" (= immigrants from the South of the Meditterranean sea and their children, grand-children, etc.), thus making sure bigots will vote for the far-right on the first round and for them en mass on the second round.

Just like the minarets, the burka is a symbol, used to tell the populace: "look how they are invading our country, perverting our values, looking to convert us all, and to degrade our women".

I wasn't aware of the local elections in 3 months but the process is the same the world over. Here in Australia we start whipping up fear about hordes of Arabs in leaky boats.

[timhau]

Right, because in most muslim countries i am free to practice christianity in my own home
or wear a crusifix necklace without ANY consequences - {insert slapping dog here}

forget DEMANDING that I should be allowed to immagrate there and open a church.

So... the only problem with the Saudi way is that they have the wrong religion?

[Arcade22]

This is good news! Go Le Pen!

[Flo]

This is good news! Go Le Pen!

Mind your own business. Besides, LePen doesn't look Swedish ...

[Arcade22]

Mind your own business.
Silly you, we are in the EU. I will mind my own business when the French people show the same courtesy. http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/188094b20f3644e181.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=18415)

[Flo]

Silly you, we are in the EU. I will mind my own business when the French people show the same courtesy. http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/188094b20f3644e181.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=18415)

French people around here have forbidden you to vote for your own retarded bigots ?

[Darth Rotor]

After looking over the article, I agree the comment that veils are "considered as proof of insufficient integration into French society," is rubbish.
Partly so. France has been a modern, open society for as long as there have been modern, open societies in Europe. From a social norms perspective, the habit of wearing face concealing clothing, by women, in French society is a signal, or maybe a symbol, of a non open social practice at odds with liberty, equality, and fraternity. I am not French, but I do understand symbols. (See the battles in the US over the Confederate flag over the state capital in South Carolina, seen by its opponents as a symbol of oppression).

The veil worn by women, and not by men, in the Muslim sub culture within France is a symbol of a social denigration of women. (But is it also just a fashion choice? I don't know.)

In that regard, it's a sign (not "proof") of non integration with French society, which is open, modern, and not generally denigrating to women.

Is a legal ban consistent with French norms and principles? I'll let the French figure that out, as I suspect opinion in France is divided on this.

PS: what Grey Area said, I second. :)

DR

[Thunder]

is it a fact that all Muslim women who wear the hajib or the burka are FORCED to by their husbands? no.

many Muslim women chose to wear these clothes as a sign of their deep commitment to their faith.

Orthodox Jewish women wear very long skirts, blouses that cover their elbows, and wigs. this is not by force. they do so as a sign of their commitment to their faith.

if we can ban Muslims from wearing a burka or a hijab, then we can ban Jews from wearing wigs and long skirts.

slippery slope my friends.

[KingMerv00]

This is good news! Go Le Pen!

Your new avatar sums you up very well: 50s style naivete and paranoia amongst a deadly, amoral wasteland.

[Darth Rotor]

Hasidic Jews not only dress very differently then secular Westerners, but they insist on living seperately, and limiting encounters with non-Haridim to a bare minimum.

Why Hasidic Jews and their ways are OK in France, but Muslim headscarves are NOT ok, is beyond me. This is clearly about anti-Muslim bigotry.
Do they cover/hide their faces? :confused:

[Francesca R]

This is clearly about anti-Muslim bigotry.You should check that with an anti-Muslim bigot. They do not tend to say: "France, yeah, they're on side. Sacre bleu! Chirac was great in 2003 with the UN. Want some pommes-frites with that?"

[richardm]

if we can ban Muslims from wearing a burka or a hijab, then we can ban Jews from wearing wigs and long skirts.

My god you're right, I hadn't realised how serious the situation was until you pointed that out. I mean, something affecting Muslims, well, pfft.

But something that might affect Jews at some point in the future? We should start bombing France immediately.

[Thunder]

But something that might affect Jews at some point in the future? We should start bombing France immediately.

um....ok?

:confused:

[Thunder]

Do they cover/hide their faces? :confused:

oh, so if the Muslim women would simply wear a burka with an exposed face, this would not be an issue huh?

right. i got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.

[Beerina]

French Immigration Minister: ban immigrants who wear veils

We'll show you, you awful Muslim women, that we can beat you harder than your husbands! :mad:

[Darth Rotor]

oh, so if the Muslim women would simply wear a burka with an exposed face, this would not be an issue huh?
I am pretty sure that it would be less of an issue. Likewise, it would be even less of an issue if it were just a matter of wearing unusual hats, such as a Fez.

Your face is a huge part of everyone else knowing that it's you. The interaction between you and everyone else is what society covers.

Your hat, your scarf, or your shoes? Not so much.

DR

[Francesca R]

oh, so if the Muslim women would simply wear a burka with an exposed face, this would not be an issue huh?Um, do you erm . . . read the stuff you link to?

PARIS — France's immigration minister said Wednesday that he wants the wearing of Muslim veils that cover the face and body to be grounds for denying citizenship and long-term residence.

[Dragoonster]

Partly so. France has been a modern, open society for as long as there have been modern, open societies in Europe. From a social norms perspective, the habit of wearing face concealing clothing, by women, in French society is a signal, or maybe a symbol, of a non open social practice at odds with liberty, equality, and fraternity. I am not French, but I do understand symbols. (See the battles in the US over the Confederate flag over the state capital in South Carolina, seen by its opponents as a symbol of oppression).

The veil worn by women, and not by men, in the Muslim sub culture within France is a symbol of a social denigration of women. (But is it also just a fashion choice? I don't know.)

In that regard, it's a sign (not "proof") of non integration with French society, which is open, modern, and not generally denigrating to women.

So since France has been a modern, open society for centuries, and assuming there've been burka-wearing French muslims (at least some) for longer than, say, 8 years, seems like quite a huge coincidence that France chooses now as the time to object to that Islamic dress style during a time of a substantial rise in anti-West Muslim extremism.

Why didn't France ban veils 100 years ago? 10 years ago?

[AWPrime]

So since France has been a modern, open society for centuries, and assuming there've been burka-wearing French muslims (at least some) for longer than, say, 8 years, seems like quite a huge coincidence that France chooses now as the time to object to that Islamic dress style during a time of a substantial rise in anti-West Muslim extremism.
Why didn't France ban veils 100 years ago? 10 years ago?It isn't anything new you know. Most western Europeans never had a good opinion of arab culture.

If the Muslim countries of the Mediterranean didn't have all that cheap labor in the latter half of the 20th century, then there would have likely be more Muslims in the US then in Western Europe. In fact there were never suppose to stay, the original idea of the immigration workers was that would leave on their own.
That they stayed did cause friction with the highly entrenched cultures of Europe. Political correctness prevented this from being expressed. And ever since the PC bubble popped, Europe has been showing its natural response (which is tame compared to countries such as Japan). One can conclude that Europe in many ways is nothing like the US.

[Darth Rotor]

Why didn't France ban veils 100 years ago?
You are kidding, right?

If you check back in your history book, 1909 was where the influence of nationalism was almost at its peak, and WW I an example of where nationalism can take you. (YMMV, depending upon what your take is on history).

Your attempted argument is only valid in the post nationalist world, which began ... I am not sure, but I think after WW II.

Ten years ago?

Good question. Why didn't they see this coming, or, why didn't this reaction come sooner? I honestly don't know.

Fifteen years ago I used to give NATO briefs (France is in NATO and had approval authority via its reps on the language used in such briefs) that identified strategic threats to NATO, particularly the nations of its southern region (Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey) that were all focused on immigration from the Mediterranean area brought on by population explosion, demographic shifts, water and resource shortages in the region, and more. At the toime, terrorism wasn't a large threat, but it has entered that old equation, and made the perception of the threat different and greater. This added negative connotation may have been a tipping point waiting to happen.

What I suppose happened is that in the past ten years the environment of tolerance and love of Muslims, European (like the Bosnian Muslims) didn't translate all that well to Arabs, and other sorts of Muslims from elsewhere. As well, France has a long and complex histlry with its immigrants from North African colonies/Francophone zones of Africa, that I only partly understand, and thus won't try to explain. I do know that this internal relationship figured into Chirac's refusal to go along with Bush in Iraq.

I'll leave further commentary on that societal relationship to somebody French.

DR

[Magyar]

or, in other words:

"mommy...he hit me first!!!"

NO, It's I want my cake and eat it too!

most muslims in the US and the Western world DO NOT wear the full face covering. But the extreme looneys that want to come to the wet so they can collect money and recruits want the west to bend over backwords for them, then have their chills, like you, whine about how mean the west is for not letting them make it easy to try to kill us all.


In the meanwhile, in their country people are reguarly put to death if they practice any other religion besides their form of crazy in the privacy of their own home. Forget wearing anything that indicates another form or religion besided the great raghead.

[Dragoonster]

You are kidding, right?

If you check back in your history book, 1909 was where the influence of nationalism was almost at its peak, and WW I an example of where nationalism can take you. (YMMV, depending upon what your take is on history).

Your attempted argument is only valid in the post nationalist world, which began ... I am not sure, but I think after WW II.

Ten years ago?

Good question. Why didn't they see this coming, or, why didn't this reaction come sooner? I honestly don't know.

See what coming? The burka being nonrepresentative of French society enough to have it banned? My argument is that the ban is pretty obviously more a reaction to recent extremist Muslim violence than it is to securing "the identity of French society", which your post to me seemed to highlight as the primary reason for the ban.

I'm also not sure how your argument here fits with the argument that France has long been a bastion of openness, including "liberty". If the ban is largely a result of nationalistic racism, then they don't seem that open. If it's a result of protection of women, I'd refer to Parky's post. Some Muslim women prefer to wear them because of religious preference, rather than fear of punishment (I guess).

Fifteen years ago I used to give NATO briefs (France is in NATO and had approval authority via its reps on the language used in such briefs) that identified strategic threats to NATO, particularly the nations of its southern region (Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey) that were all focused on immigration from the Mediterranean area brought on by population explosion, demographic shifts, water and resource shortages in the region, and more. At the toime, terrorism wasn't a large threat, but it has entered that old equation, and made the perception of the threat different and greater. This added negative connotation may have been a tipping point waiting to happen.

What I suppose happened is that in the past ten years the environment of tolerance and love of Muslims, European (like the Bosnian Muslims) didn't translate all that well to Arabs, and other sorts of Muslims from elsewhere. As well, France has a long and complex histlry with its immigrants from North African colonies/Francophone zones of Africa, that I only partly understand, and thus won't try to explain. I do know that this internal relationship figured into Chirac's refusal to go along with Bush in Iraq.

I'll leave further commentary on that societal relationship to somebody French.

DR

This is very reasonable. But isn't quite as benign as what that French guy was feigning the motivation behind the ban is.

I've been arguing like this because I got the impression some here thought this ban had little or nothing to do with the huge rise in Islamic extremism. Sorry that I misconstrued what you think.

[KingMerv00]

NO, It's I want my cake and eat it too!

most muslims in the US and the Western world DO NOT wear the full face covering. But the extreme looneys that want to come to the wet so they can collect money and recruits want the west to bend over backwords for them, then have their chills, like you, whine about how mean the west is for not letting them make it easy to try to kill us all.

I think you are confusing a veil with homicidal tendencies. Honest mistake. They look so much alike.:rolleyes:

In the meanwhile, in their country people are reguarly put to death if they practice any other religion besides their form of crazy in the privacy of their own home.

Which country is that? Are all of the immigrants coming from the same place?

[Thunder]

Which country is that? Are all of the immigrants coming from the same place?

didn't you know? all Muslims come from Al-Qaedastan.

:)

[kerikiwi]

National Geographic Discovery Channel, and also on some websites I've just checked. It seems to be something which happens in the Highlands and not Moresby or Lae. Maybe you travels in PNG are not that definitive.

ETA. Comments about the Eipo culture of PNG:



Nope, never saw it in the highlands either.

[The Fool]

Personally I find it annoying the way western women cover their breasts. How can I tell one woman from another?

[gtc]

Personally I find it annoying the way western women cover their breasts. How can I tell one woman from another?

That's a slippery slope argument. Possibly two slippery slopes.

Either way, I think this is something we should look at very carefully. I mean look into.

[Darth Rotor]

See what coming? The burka being nonrepresentative of French society enough to have it banned? My argument is that the ban is pretty obviously more a reaction to recent extremist Muslim violence than it is to securing "the identity of French society", which your post to me seemed to highlight as the primary reason for the ban.
More a fusion of both than one or the other.
This is very reasonable. But isn't quite as benign as what that French guy was feigning the motivation behind the ban is.
Last time a politician was honest was ... when? :D
I've been arguing like this because I got the impression some here thought this ban had little or nothing to do with the huge rise in Islamic extremism. Sorry that I misconstrued what you think.
Thanks. I suspect that the last ten years has changed presumption of innocence attached to foreigners/immigrants in a number of places.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Personally I find it annoying the way western women cover their breasts. How can I tell one woman from another?
Via tactile means. The ones who don't whack you after the impromptu inspection are in your "let's go to dinner together" pool ...

[Checkmite]

the message from the French and Swiss appears to be:

"we welcome and respect you. just don't act like Muslims."

what's next, banning Orthodox and Hasidic Jews from wearing black?

No, not at all. The equivalent is to ban technically everyone from wearing all black and black flat-crowned, brimmed hats while having long beards. True, only Orthodox and Hasidic Jews and American Amish ever dress that way, but as long as you don't actually label them in the legislation it's apparently okay.

[Pardalis]

So is France going to ban this movie (http://www.cinemovies.fr/photog-63333-1.html), while they're at it?

[funk de fino]

NO, It's I want my cake and eat it too!

most muslims in the US and the Western world DO NOT wear the full face covering. But the extreme looneys that want to come to the wet so they can collect money and recruits want the west to bend over backwords for them, then have their chills, like you, whine about how mean the west is for not letting them make it easy to try to kill us all.


In the meanwhile, in their country people are reguarly put to death if they practice any other religion besides their form of crazy in the privacy of their own home. Forget wearing anything that indicates another form or religion besided the great raghead.

WOW. extra helping of ignorance.