Israel to demand 1 billion more Euros from Germany, for Holocaust compensation

[Thunder]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136383.html

i'm sorry...but when does the guilt end?

haven't the Germans and other Europeans made enough reparations???

honestly...

...meanwhile, Israel continues to fund more settlements, demolish more Palestinian homes, strip Palestinians of their permanent residency status.

the hypocrisy never ends.

[Doctor Evil]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136383.html

i'm sorry...but when does the guilt end?

haven't the Germans and other Europeans made enough reparations???

honestly...

Reading comprehension fail.

From the story:
Israeli officials estimate that according to a ghetto workers act passed by the German parliament in 2002, all of the 30,000 living forced labor survivors are entitled to a retroactive payment of approximately 15,000 euros each.

However, Finance Ministry officials say that according to the German government's calculations, the one-time payment is larger than that estimated by Israel, and reaches a total of 1 billion euros. The story, as I understand it, is as follows. The compensation of forced labor is a not fully resolved issue between Israel and Germany. In 2002 a German court have passed a law regarding such compensations. However, the German government have been very slow to follow the ruling and Israeli holocaust survivor who were forced to work for the third Reich have not received the compensation according to the new law. As a result the subject was taken by the Israeli government who will apply on their behalf.

To summarize, the issue here is the application of a German law to 30000 Israeli citizens. It has nothing to do with Parky's comments, hence my reading comprehension comment.


...meanwhile, Israel continues to fund more settlements, demolish more Palestinian homes, strip Palestinians of their permanent residency status.
And how this is connected to the right of compensation of 30000 people who were forced to work under the third Reich, according to the German law?


the hypocrisy never ends.Indeed, but not in the way you intended. Back to ignore.

[Thunder]

Indeed, but not in the way you intended. Back to ignore.

good. sorry, but I just think the lawsuits over WW2 need to end. its time to let go.

[shuize]

good. sorry, but I just think the lawsuits over WW2 need to end. its time to let go.


I feel the same way about the Palestinian "right" of return.

[Thunder]

I feel the same way about the Palestinian "right" of return.

how many billions of dollars have the Palestinians received in compensation so far? none?

hmmmm...interesting comparison there. never mind the fact that the Palestinians just want their damn land back, and don't really care about money.

[The Fool]

Is this money going to the victims or that wackjob Netanyahu's regime?

[Thunder]

Is this money going to the victims or that wackjob Netanyahu's regime?

there is a great deal of evidence that money received by these organizations help the organizations more than the purported victims.

but since the Israeli govt. is doing the suing, money will indeed go to the Netanyahu regime. maybe even some will go to build more illegal settlements.

[shuize]

I just think the lawsuits over WW2 need to end. its time to let go.


Jews should just let stuff go. Palestians, not so much.

Got it.

[Thunder]

Jews should just let stuff go. Palestians, not so much.

Got it.

The Jewish people, both collectively and individually, have received billions of dollars in reperations for the crimes committed against them during WW2.

The Palestinian people, however, have received nothing. They have received no land and no money, to compensate them for lost property after 1948.

Clearly, justice has been done for the Jews. But justice has yet to even begin for the Palestinians.

[Slayhamlet]

how many billions of dollars have the Palestinians received in compensation so far? none?

hmmmm...interesting comparison there. never mind the fact that the Palestinians just want their damn land back, and don't really care about money.

The 1 billion euros (according to Germany's estimate) is to be payed to survivors of Nazi work camps as compensation for their forced labor. I'm not aware of Israelis ever using Palestinians for forced labor, so in this particular case there's no comparison.

The ancillary matter of Adolf Sommerfeld's claim to land the Nazi's kicked him out of is comparable, all the more so because Germany dismissed it.

[Slayhamlet]

there is a great deal of evidence that money received by these organizations help the organizations more than the purported victims.

but since the Israeli govt. is doing the suing, money will indeed go to the Netanyahu regime. maybe even some will go to build more illegal settlements.

That's not what the article says. Either provide some evidence that this is so or stop spouting off about what you don't know to be true. Is that so hard, Parky?

[Thunder]

That's not what the article says. Either provide some evidence that this is so or stop spouting off about what you don't know to be true. Is that so hard, Parky?

lets see what happens to the $$ once its dished out.

i got some relatives who were killed in the Holocaust. can I sue too????? can I?

[Slayhamlet]

The Jewish people, both collectively and individually, have received billions of dollars in reparations for the crimes committed against them during WW2.

These particular Jews haven't.

[Slayhamlet]

lets see what happens to the $$ once its dished out.

So you're going to fail to back up your statement once again, Parky? Typical.

[Thunder]

So you're going to fail to back up your statement once again, Parky? Typical.

i know...right????
:)

[Slayhamlet]

i know...right????
:)

Yes, and apparently you're proud of it.

Any evidence on those Al Qaeda demands you made up? No? Thought so.

[Thunder]

Any evidence on those Al Qaeda demands you made up? No? Thought so.

another zinger!!! ;)

[WildCat]

good. sorry, but I just think the lawsuits over WW2 need to end. its time to let go.
So in 3 more years you'll say the Palestinians should let it go also?

Oh, I forgot, you expect more from Israel... :rolleyes:

[Skeptic]

So in 3 more years you'll say the Palestinians should let it go also?

Oh, I forgot, you expect more from Israel... :rolleyes:

Do you know I am a holocaust survivor?

And so are my parents, brothers, and most of my family, and my children?

Well...... not really, but my grandparents were, so (using the Palestinian definition of "refugee") so are my parents, and myself, and my children, and so on ad infinitum.

How can you expect us to forget about it when the holocaust survivor problem is still not solved, and there are more holocaust survivors every day?!

[Eyeron]

Okay, now how can there be more Holocaust survivors every day? If there are more holocaust survivors every day, then that means that eventually there'll be more people than there was at the time of the holocaust.

[Skeptic]

I don't know why not. There are now millions more Palestinian "refugees" than were actually refugees in 1948.

This applies only to Palestinians, by the way.

It's magic.

[Skeptic]

Parky has no idea why anybody would need zionism at all.

Well, perhaps if there was a Jewish state in 1938 instead of 1948, six million Jews would not have been slaughtered -- and then, decades later, the survivors would not be attacked for being such whiners about it.

They're acting like dead Jews is some cause for concern, all of a sudden. This "Israel" thing got really strange ideas into their head, didn't it?

[kerikiwi]

I don't know why not. There are now millions more Palestinian "refugees" than were actually refugees in 1948.

This applies only to Palestinians, by the way.

It's magic.

Where else might it apply? Where else have people been evicted from their homes to make way for someone else?

[Skeptic]

Well, it would apply to India, Pakistan, Germany, Russia, the Arab world (eviction of the Jews as "revenge" for zionism), all of Europe (eviction of Jews and other "undesirables"), most of the Balkan states, Turkey, Greece, many places in Africa... and in most of those cases had those evicted did not enthusiastically join the plan to genocide those from who they eventually fled in the war, like the Palestinians joined the Arab "destroy Israel" plan in 1948.

So it would apply to most of the world, really. War creates refugees everywhere. I am not trying to compare here all these cases to each other in terms of morality -- e.g., the mutual population transfers between Greece and Turkey, as painful as they were, were in no way, shape, or form equivalent to the Nazi or Soviet creation of refugees -- but merely to point out that it would apply almost universally.

But only the Palestinians are deliberately kept in refugee camps in perpetuity by their Arab "brothers"; "refugee" status passes from generation to generation automatically only in their case; any attempt to resettle them -- like Israel settled millions of refugees from the Arab world and Europe, indeed like most of the world resettled its refugees -- is rebuffed.

Why? Because the Palestinians are merely pawns, a ploy in the game whose real purpose is Israel's destruction, by the Arab world.

[Thunder]

Parky has no idea why anybody would need zionism at all.

Well, perhaps if there was a Jewish state in 1938 instead of 1948, six million Jews would not have been slaughtered -- and then, decades later, the survivors would not be attacked for being such whiners about it.


#1. stop with the personal attacks.

#2. appealing to emotion is a dead end, here at JREF.

[Darth Rotor]

#2. appealing to emotion is a dead end, here at JREF.
Then why do you do it so frequently?

DR

[Thunder]

Then why do you do it so frequently?

DR

um....got anything to back that up?

[WildCat]

Where else might it apply? Where else have people been evicted from their homes to make way for someone else?
Well my great-grandparents were evicted from their home (without compensation) in Alcase after WWI, their crime being they spoke German.

By the Palestinian definition that makes me a refugee from the evil French.

[Thunder]

Well my great-grandparents were evicted from their home (without compensation) in Alcase after WWI, their crime being they spoke German.

By the Palestinian definition that makes me a refugee from the evil French.

your family should totally sue the French. I would. My great-Aunt sued the Czechs for property confiscated by the Nazis and then held by the Communists.

She got a small amount of money, but I am going to Prague this summer and plan on "stopping by". :)

[WildCat]

your family should totally sue the French. I would. My great-Aunt sued the Czechs for property confiscated by the Nazis and then held by the Communists.

She got a small amount of money, but I am going to Prague this summer and plan on "stopping by". :)
No.

Damages do not pass to the next generation, and my family has long since moved on.

Besides, I wouldn't even exist if they hadn't lost their home and moved to America.

[TriskettheKid]

your family should totally sue the French. I would. My great-Aunt sued the Czechs for property confiscated by the Nazis and then held by the Communists.

She got a small amount of money, but I am going to Prague this summer and plan on "stopping by". :)

Who can my friend's father and grandparents sue?

They fled Egypt (to Israel), after their home and store were confiscated in 1967.

How about my other friend, who's grandmother fled with her family from Iraq in 1951?

Who can my friends' families sue? Will Egypt give them money? Or their property back? How about Iraq?

[Thunder]

They fled Egypt (to Israel), after their home and store were confiscated in 1967.

How about my other friend, who's grandmother fled with her family from Iraq in 1951?

Who can my friends' families sue? Will Egypt give them money? Or their property back? How about Iraq?

I'm sorry, who exactly is stopping you from suing?

why don't Maghreb Jews get together and sue the Arab countries for compensation for lost property?

again..who is stopping you?

[TriskettheKid]

I'm sorry, who exactly is stopping you from suing?

The fact that my family wasn't affected.

why don't Maghreb Jews get together and sue the Arab countries for compensation for lost property?

again..who is stopping you?

I can think of a couple reasons.

What chance does a Jew have in suing for compensation in an Egyptian court? Or an Iraqi one?

Then again, I'm fairly certain both families have moved on, as hard as it was.

[Thunder]

The fact that my family wasn't affected.

then they have nothing to complain about.


I can think of a couple reasons.

What chance does a Jew have in suing for compensation in an Egyptian court? Or an Iraqi one?


sounds like they are doing just fine, are too cowardly to fight for what they may deserve, or a combination of the two.

if they feel they have been denied justice, then they should fight for justice. if not, well then, Mazel Tov.

[TriskettheKid]

then they have nothing to complain about.

When did I say anything about MY family?

I said that two of my friends have these issues. One's family used to live in Egypt, prior to 1967. The other had a grandparent leave Iraq in 1951.


sounds like they are doing just fine, are too cowardly to fight for what they may deserve, or a combination of the two.

if they feel they have been denied justice, then they should fight for justice. if not, well then, Mazel Tov.

Right. Because obviously the only reason they haven't sued for compensation is because they are cowards.

I'm SURE that is the answer. There is no other, bleeding obvious, reason as to why they haven't sued or fought for proper compensation.

Fact of the matter is, they've moved on. Like practically every other refugee population.

[Thunder]

Fact of the matter is, they've moved on. Like practically every other refugee population.

except, of course, for Holocaust survivors. apparently, the lawsuits will finally end the day the last European Jew born before 1945, is dead.

...maybe. and maybe not. ;)

[TriskettheKid]

except, of course, for Holocaust survivors. apparently, the lawsuits will finally end the day the last European Jew born before 1945, is dead.

...maybe. and maybe not. ;)

They have cause. They were actually in the camps. Just like the Japanese the US put in camps (of a wildly different kind) on the West Coast.

Point being, of course, the Holocaust survivors aren't "refugees" so much as they are survivors. They actually had things happen to them.

They were, for lack of a better term, state property.

ETA:

For a point of reference, I'm using the dictionary definitions of "refugee." The survivors were not refugees until after the war and they were liberated. Prior to that, they were victims.

[Thunder]

Arab states exiled Jews and confiscated property. These Jews, regardless of where they are today or their condition, have cause to sue.

its not my fault..or the Palestinians fault..if they choose not to sue.

justice delayed is justice denied.

Holocaust survivors had every right to sue Germany for pain, suffering, and lost property, after the nightmare of WW2.

but billions have been donated, and billions more in equipment and supplies given to Israel. I personally think the Holocaust needs to be put to rest.

though, others want to keep the memory of the Holocaust burning brightly, for purely political reasons.

[TriskettheKid]

Arab states exiled Jews and confiscated property. These Jews, regardless of where they are today or their condition, have cause to sue.

its not my fault..or the Palestinians fault..if they choose not to sue.

justice delayed is justice denied.

What kind of sense does this make?

Do the Arab states operate with the same kind of law system as, say, the US or the UK? CAN these people sue? Or do they have to petition the government?

More to the point: does it even matter? Is there any chance they could win in Egypt? In Iraq?

And who the hell said anything about blaming the Palestinians?

This seems to be a problem that permeates your posts. Stop implicating and making arguments that aren't there to begin with.

[Oliver]

Haaaahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaawhat? :confused:

Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz will demand between 450 million to 1 billion euros in reparations from Germany on behalf of Jews forced into slave labor during the Holocaust, it emerged on Sunday.

Minister Steinitz will reportedly present German government with the demand on behalf of 30,000 Israeli survivors of forced labor in wartime ghettos, during a joint session scheduled to take place in early 2010 in Berlin...

Full source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136383.html

[mortimer]

Haaaahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaawhat? :confused:
What do you find funny about it?

[Skeptic]

Greedy Joooooooooooooos are always funny. So many caricatures on the subject...

[Thunder]

we already got a topic on this in Current Events.

and yes, I think its way past time to stop the lawsuits.

[Pardalis]

Haaaahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaawhat? :confused:

Astute as always.

Oh right, let me guess, you still think it was the Jews' own fault (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=146040)?

[ddt]

It's a German law, passed by German Parliament, so I don't understand why people are so upset with it.

I couldn't find any particulars on this law, but from the text of the article it seems it is meant for the individual 30,000 survivors, and that the state of Israel only acts as their lawyer, so to say, to get the money.

Anybody know if Germany is going to pay the money directly to the survivors or to the state of Israel, which then would be responsible for the distribution?

[Pardalis]

I think they should put that billion Euros in the German education system, seeing how ignorant Oliver is about the Holocaust, it seems to be seriously lacking.

[Childlike Empress]

The link is dead.

edit: Haaretz is dead? Or is it me?

edit2: there it is again.

edit3 @ddt: I think they are talking about the Foundation "Remembrance, Responsibility and Future" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_%22Remembrance,_Responsibility_and_Futu re%22) that was established after a law (http://www.stiftung-evz.de/ueber-uns/stiftungsgesetz/) passed in 2000, not 2002.

Between 2001 and 2007 a total of EUR 4.4 billion was paid out to more than 1.66 million people in almost 100 countries.


edit4 @pardalis: 18781

[Skeptic]

It's a German law, passed by German Parliament, so I don't understand why people are so upset with it.

Because the evil, whiny Joooooooooooooz might benefit.

[Pardalis]

edit4 @pardalis: 18781

Cute.

[Gangularis]

And this money is going to be taken from one set of heirs and given to another set of heirs.. neither of which are responsible for what their elder relatives did.. Interesting brand of justice...

When do reparations come for the homosexuals, and gypsies?

[Doctor Evil]

And this money is going to be taken from one set of heirs and given to another set of heirs.. neither of which are responsible for what their elder relatives did.. Interesting brand of justice...

When do reparations come for the homosexuals, and gypsies?

So you have not bothered to read the story then. Otherwise you should have known who the money goes to, and for what.

[Slayhamlet]

And this money is going to be taken from one set of heirs and given to another set of heirs.. neither of which are responsible for what their elder relatives did.. Interesting brand of justice...

When do reparations come for the homosexuals, and gypsies?

Um, the German law applies to any living person who was used as forced labor by the Nazi regime. As Israel is asking for reparations on behalf of those of its citizens who fall under that category, it's likely they will all be Jews. I don't think there are many gypsies or German homosexuals in Israel.

[Thunder]

Because the evil, whiny Joooooooooooooz might benefit.

ooooh...a strawman!!!

[ddt]

edit3 @ddt: I think they are talking about the Foundation "Remembrance, Responsibility and Future" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_%22Remembrance,_Responsibility_and_Futu re%22) that was established after a law (http://www.stiftung-evz.de/ueber-uns/stiftungsgesetz/) passed in 2000, not 2002.
Thanks. I had read about that one on wiki. That foundation indeed paid disbursements to forced labourers in KZs and ghettos. The 4.4 bn you mentioned specifically applies to that part of their work. However, this page (in German) (http://www.stiftung-evz.de/ns-zwangsarbeit/auszahlungsprogramme/abschluss-der-auszahlungen/) says the disbursement program ended in 2007.

It could be another law, but that seems weird - the description of the EVZ foundation program seems pretty comprehensive.

I'm confused. :boggled:

[Eyeron]

As a Cherokee I want my reparations for the Trail of Tears.

[marksman]

Unfortunately, nobody came up with the idea of reparations until all the Cherokee who actually endured the Trail of Tears had died. Unless you're over 180 years old, you probably wouldn't qualify.

[Eyeron]

It doesn't matter. If African Americans can have reparations, and if Jews can have theirs, I want mine.

[Childlike Empress]

Thanks. I had read about that one on wiki. That foundation indeed paid disbursements to forced labourers in KZs and ghettos. The 4.4 bn you mentioned specifically applies to that part of their work. However, this page (in German) (http://www.stiftung-evz.de/ns-zwangsarbeit/auszahlungsprogramme/abschluss-der-auszahlungen/) says the disbursement program ended in 2007.

It could be another law, but that seems weird - the description of the EVZ foundation program seems pretty comprehensive.

I'm confused. :boggled:


Me too. I found and am not aware of anything else that could apply here. According to wikipedia, the maximum amount of money payed to individuals in this program is 7670 €, which would sum up - if all 30000 Israelis in question qualify for the maximum amount -, to less than 350 million dollar.

[JJM 777]

I think Germany has already donated two nuclear Dolphine class submarines to Israel, worth 1 bn each. Or did Israel pay something nominal for them, a small fraction of their actual cost. It is so handy to have Israel doing the dirty job in Middle East on behalf of the nice and peaceful western countries.

[marksman]

It doesn't matter. If African Americans can have reparations, and if Jews can have theirs, I want mine.

African Americans haven't gotten reparations. And Jews don't get reparations. Specific victims of the Holocaust do. I have great-uncles who died in the Holocaust without heirs. No compensation will be forthcoming for me. There's nobody to compensate.

[ddt]

Me too. I found and am not aware of anything else that could apply here. According to wikipedia, the maximum amount of money payed to individuals in this program is 7670 €, which would sum up - if all 30000 Israelis in question qualify for the maximum amount -, to less than 350 million dollar.
I think I found the law in question. This PDF (http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/nn_53848/DE/BMF__Startseite/Service/Broschueren__Bestellservice/Das__Ministerium/40144,property=publicationFile.pdf) (in German) from the Ministry of Finance gives an overview of all laws and regulations for NS victims. On page 34 it mentions the "Gesetz zur Zahlbarmachung von Renten aus Beschäftigungen in einem Ghetto (http://bundesrecht.juris.de/zrbg/BJNR207410002.html)" (link in German). In Germany, entitlement to state pension builds up for the time you actually worked (and paid premiums). This law entitles someon to pension for the years he worked in a ghetto. However, the work had to be voluntary and not forced labour. However, it's the only law from 2002 I could find that comes close to the description in Haaretz.

Wiki also had links to two Haaretz articles from 2007 (link (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/927160.html), link (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/924070.html)) which seem to be related, where the Israeli government wanted to renegotiate terms with Germany, especially in relation to elderly. It mentions the Luxemburg agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germ any) from 1952, the main agreement between Israel and Germany. From wiki:
Despite the protests, the agreement was signed in September of that year, and West Germany paid Israel a sum of 3 billion marks over the next fourteen years; 450 million marks were paid to the World Jewish Congress. The payments were made to the State of Israel as the heir to those victims who had no surviving family. The money was invested in the country's infrastructure and played an important role in establishing the economy of the new state. The reparations would become a decisive part of Israel's income, comprising as high as 87.5% of the state income in 1956.
And from the second Haaretz article:
According to government calculations the cost of caring for survivors during the past 50 years cost 4.5 times more than what was originally estimated and paid as part of the 1952 agreement. Germany paid $833 million as part of that agreement.
This seems to be linked to the current article.

I think Germany has already donated two nuclear Dolphine class submarines to Israel, worth 1 bn each. Or did Israel pay something nominal for them, a small fraction of their actual cost. It is so handy to have Israel doing the dirty job in Middle East on behalf of the nice and peaceful western countries.

The first two Dolphins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_class_submarine) were a donation from Germany, and the third was paid in half by Germany. They each cost around 225 mn Euro. The two new ordered cost around 1bn Euro a piece, and Germany pays one third of it. Two of the torpedo tubes have been modified to fit larger (nuclear) torpedos.

Yes, it's handy to have a sugar daddy who you can guilt-trip into buying nice presents.

[Skeptic]

Yes, it's handy to have a sugar daddy who you can guilt-trip into buying nice presents.

All for the small, small price of having a third of your people go up in smoke in the ovens.

And living in a neighborhood where quite a few folks want to repeat just that...

[Thunder]

African Americans haven't gotten reparations. And Jews don't get reparations. Specific victims of the Holocaust do. I have great-uncles who died in the Holocaust without heirs. No compensation will be forthcoming for me. There's nobody to compensate.

my great-aunt got zero compensation from the Germans. i think she just wanted to let it go and never remember the horrors.

[Slayhamlet]

This article (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7017332805) says it was a German high court decision (it doesn't say which court, and I don't know enough about the German judiciary to say for sure) in 2002 that made forced laborers in ghettos also eligible for the EVZ reparations. I haven't been able to find the decision, however.

[LibraryLady]

Merged these two threads on the same subject, folks.