Another double standard in China

[The Atheist]

The Chinese have set their minds on executing British subject (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10616960)Akmal Shaikh, despite well-documented mental health issues.

Conversely, the country is by far the largest exporter of pseudoephedrine (http://www.fuzing.com/qrx/ephedrine-pseudoephedrine), the vast bulk of which ends up as crystal meth.

[Puppycow]

Is there any objective evidence that he's really mentally ill?
Or that he was "duped" into carrying drugs?

Are there legal uses for pseudoephedrine?

[kerikiwi]

Where is the double standard?

[Ducky]

Are there legal uses for pseudoephedrine?

Yes, mostly related to nasal congestion. Of course, there may be better alternatives. I'm not a doctor.

[Ziggurat]

Yes, mostly related to nasal congestion. Of course, there may be better alternatives.

There are alternatives. I wouldn't call them better. Of course, different people respond differently, but for many, pseudoephedrine (the ingredient in the original Sudafed) is one of the best OTC allergy relief medicines.

[Puppycow]

So, to be sure, this is a legal export? They are not in violation of the laws of the destination countries, correct?

[MRC_Hans]

According to the link in the OP

Conversely, the country is by far the largest exporter of pseudoephedrine (http://www.fuzing.com/qrx/ephedrine-pseudoephedrine), the vast bulk of which ends up as crystal meth.

- it is evidently a legitimate export.

I don't support capital punishment in any form, but it would seem that the conviction is also legitimate, according to Chinese law.

Hans

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Conversely, the country is by far the largest exporter of pseudoephedrine (http://www.fuzing.com/qrx/ephedrine-pseudoephedrine), the vast bulk of which ends up as crystal meth.

Is there any evidence that the 'vast bulk' (say >80%) of manufactured pseudoephedrine, or even the 'vast bulk' of Chinese exported pseudoephedrine ends up as crystal meth?

Preferably without first being made into and sold as a legitimate product like Sudofed, since I think accusing the Chinese of a double standard by selling a legal product, which is made into another legal product in a different country, then converted into an illegal drug is reaching quite a bit.

For what it's worth I don't support the death penalty, and would like to see this guy reprieved, but if you wander into China carrying 4kg of heroin you have to antcipate some negative consequences.

[commandlinegamer]

For what it's worth I don't support the death penalty, and would like to see this guy reprieved, but if you wander into China carrying 4kg of heroin you have to antcipate some negative consequences.

Not if you're crazy. This guy wrote a song about rabbits which he thought would bring in world peace.* Maybe you might argue if he's that delusional he should have been in an institution, not travelling the world.

I contacted my MP and the Foreign Secretary and received assurances that they were taking all steps to prevent his execution, but I have a feeling it won't make much difference. And even if they do execute him I can't see it having much effect on British-Chinese relations; we're too dependent on goods manufactured there.

* - I'm accepting the evidence as presented by Reprieve. Would you make this sort of thing up?

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Not if you're crazy. This guy wrote a song about rabbits which he thought would bring in world peace.* Maybe you might argue if he's that delusional he should have been in an institution, not travelling the world.

I would make that argument.


* - I'm accepting the evidence as presented by Reprieve. Would you make this sort of thing up?

Well, if I was trying to avoid being executed I might.

Seriously, while I hope he isn't executed, the only alternative would be a lengthy prison sentence, hopefully served in the UK, but maybe not and I wouldn't be too sanguine about the prospects for a delusional Brit in a Chinese prison.

[MRC_Hans]

.

* - I'm accepting the evidence as presented by Reprieve. Would you make this sort of thing up?In hope of a reprieve, on grounds of insanity?

Hans

[Cainkane1]

The Chinese have set their minds on executing British subject (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10616960)Akmal Shaikh, despite well-documented mental health issues.

Conversely, the country is by far the largest exporter of pseudoephedrine (http://www.fuzing.com/qrx/ephedrine-pseudoephedrine), the vast bulk of which ends up as crystal meth.
Well if he was in control of his facilities enough to know he was smuggling heroin in a country that has the death penalty for doing so I have to say this. He knew the consequences despite his imperfect mental health. If you've read my post about my own mental health issues you would know where I'm comming from.

If I went to China and if I knew what would happen if I got caught with a suitcase full of heroin I'd be responsible for my actions. MY OCD would not be an excuse.

I hope he isn't executed.

[JWideman]

the chinese have set their minds on executing british subject (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10616960)akmal shaikh, despite well-documented mental health issues.

Conversely, the country is by far the largest exporter of pseudoephedrine (http://www.fuzing.com/qrx/ephedrine-pseudoephedrine), the vast bulk of which ends up as sudofed.

ftfy

[commandlinegamer]

I wasn't going to say it, but if you wanted a conspiracy theory then you could say it's Chinese revenge for the Opium Wars.

[The Atheist]

Is there any objective evidence that he's really mentally ill?
Or that he was "duped" into carrying drugs?

I don't know for sure, but a history of mental illness should be pretty easy to prove if he's been medicated for it and Gordon Brown seems to think it's true.

Are there legal uses for pseudoephedrine?

Lots

Where is the double standard?

Ah, classic!

Do you not buy newspapers or receive internet news in the Bay?

You're not aware that a huge amount of P comes from Chinese-sourced pseudoephedrine? You don't see the arrests and seizures? It will probably surprise you then, to find that quite a number of murders have been committed by people by out of their minds on an incredibly addictive and dangerous drug.

Heck, if we killed the Chinks who import that ****, I probably wouldn't mind so much, but if you can't see a double standard in executing for import but approving for export of the same thing - a Class A, highly addictive, highly illegal, extremely destructive drug - then I probably can't help you.

So, to be sure, this is a legal export? They are not in violation of the laws of the destination countries, correct?

Incorrect.

I don't know of any countries which allow uncontrolled import of ephedrine or pseudoephedrine.

Is there any evidence that the 'vast bulk' (say >80%) of manufactured pseudoephedrine, or even the 'vast bulk' of Chinese exported pseudoephedrine ends up as crystal meth?

Probably is somewhere, but since I doubt anyone's going to get truth from the Chinks on amount manufactured, plus there's an unknown in the amount imported into countries since the importers aren't going to fill in a declaration.

On the other hand, the amount seized by customs is public knowledge. The indications are that the amount coming in for manufacture into crystal meth is a lot more than the legal usage.

Preferably without first being made into and sold as a legitimate product like Sudofed, since I think accusing the Chinese of a double standard by selling a legal product, which is made into another legal product in a different country, then converted into an illegal drug is reaching quite a bit.

That's quite funny given the effort USA has put into declaring war on people in South America and Asia due to the drug trade.

The use for prescription drugs is very straightforward.

Right now, I can order 50kg of pseudoephedrine from China and no Chinese commits a crime.

Can you, as an individual, import morphine - or raw opium - from anywhere in the world as part of a country's legal export? Or cannibis? Or cocaine?

For what it's worth I don't support the death penalty, and would like to see this guy reprieved, but if you wander into China carrying 4kg of heroin you have to antcipate some negative consequences.

I'm not too fussed, really, although the mental illness claim is a bit distrubing - a raving loony would be the best person to convince to do it. I just find it a little ironic that the amazingly capitalist government in China can kill for one drug while legally exporting another, or the precursor thereto. Heck, there's money in killing off everyone else's citizens, why should they care, right?

[casebro]

Are there legal uses for pseudoephedrine?

It's also the treatment for Priapism, the Viagra "more than four hours" side effect.

Hmm, does crystal meth have 'poor preformance' as a side effect?

[kerikiwi]

Ah, classic!

Do you not buy newspapers or receive internet news in the Bay?

You're not aware that a huge amount of P comes from Chinese-sourced pseudoephedrine? You don't see the arrests and seizures? It will probably surprise you then, to find that quite a number of murders have been committed by people by out of their minds on an incredibly addictive and dangerous drug.

Heck, if we killed the Chinks who import that ****, I probably wouldn't mind so much, but if you can't see a double standard in executing for import but approving for export of the same thing - a Class A, highly addictive, highly illegal, extremely destructive drug - then I probably can't help you.



Your racism is offensive, your sarcasm just silly.
You have failed to demonstrate any double standard.
The Chinese are not responsible for the things that we do down here.

[daredelvis]

I can't see in the JREF user agreement where it is against the rules to use the racist slurs you have peppered your post with, but I can see where it is against common decency.

Daredelvis

[Captain.Sassy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade_in_the_People's_Republic_of_Chi na


Precursor chemicals
China is of paramount importance in global cooperative efforts to prevent the diversion of precursor chemicals. With its large chemical industry, China remains a source country for legitimately produced chemicals that are diverted for production of heroin and cocaine, as well as many amphetamine-type stimulants. China and its neighbor India are the leading exporters of bulk ephedrine in the world. China produces over 100,000 metric tons of acetic anhydride each year, and imports an additional 20,000 metric tons from the United States and Singapore. China is also the second largest producer of potassium permanganate in the world.

To combat the diversion of precursor chemicals, China implemented several regulations on the control of precursor chemicals between 1992 and 1998, including adoption of the 1988 U.N. Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances in 1993. Additionally, the Government further improved regulations to strengthen control of ephedrine during 1999 and 2000.

China fully participates in the DEA's Operations TOPAZ and PURPLE, which are international monitoring initiatives that target acetic anhydride and potassium permanganate, respectively. Acetic anhydride is used to synthesize morphine base into heroin, and potassium permanganate is used as an oxidizer in cocaine production. Both chemicals are targeted because they are the chemicals most often preferred, and most widely used, by illicit drug manufacturers. However, the effectiveness of Operation PURPLE has been declining recently, since participant nations are exporting significant amounts of potassium permanganate to non-participant countries.

Additionally, Chinese authorities further control the export of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine through the voluntary use of the Letter of Non-Objection (LONO) system. China will not allow exports of ephedrine or pseudoephedrine without a positive affirmation by authorities in the importing country as to the bona fides of the consignee. For those countries that do not issue import permits, a letter of non-objection must be provided to Chinese authorities.

China is a source country for significant amounts of the ephedrine and pseudoephedrine exported to Mexico, and subsequently used to manufacture methamphetamine destined for the United States.

Increases in pseudoephedrine diversion were noted, beginning with the seizures in March and April 2003 of four shipments of product destined for Mexico. The seizures occurred in the United States and Panama, and totaled over 22 million, 60-milligram pseudoephedrine tablets. The source of supply has been identified as legitimate pharmaceutical companies in Hong Kong. Additional investigations have revealed other companies in Hong Kong that have been engaged in supplying substantial amounts of pseudoephedrine to firms, sometime fictitious, shells or fronts, in Mexico.

Also, reports indicate that acetic anhydride is diverted from China to morphine/heroin refineries found in the Golden Triangle. Domestically, Chinese officials express concern over the increasing number of synthetic drug production operations in their country. Seizures of precursor chemicals in China increased from 50 metric tons in 1991 to 383 metric tons in 1997; only 300 metric tons were seized in 2002.

[Wolfman]

Edited due to lack of civility, breach of Rule 12

Now, to address the actual issues raised:

I personally hope that this guy doesn't get executed; but MRC Hans is correct, his conviction and sentence are 100% legal under Chinese law. There seems little doubt that he knew he was bringing in drugs, and he knew that it was illegal (and none of the people defending him and asking for clemency seem to be trying to claim that he didn't know he was bringing in illegal drugs); the fact that he may also have mental problems that allowed others to manipulate him into doing this doesn't play much of a role under Chinese law.

I am opposed to capital punishment in general, and particularly for offenses not involving murder or rape. China uses execution far too freely and far too often. And for that reason, I oppose his execution. But I certainly don't oppose his conviction.

And in regards to the whole pseudoephedrine argument...pretty much everyone except TA seems to be able to see what a fundamentally flawed (and ridiculous) argument this is. Hell, might as well jump all over the Chinese for exporting more glue than any other country in the world, and then point out how many people snort glue. Or condemn them for exporting fertilizers, and then point out that fertilizers are used in the production of terrorist bombs.

[gumboot]

I'm far more disturbed and frankly confused by a recent report that China has arrested some guy for setting up a website offering support to babies affected by the tainted milk powder scandal - a scandal that the Chinese government has convicted several people for.

Get this... the guy is charged with causing trouble and stirring up disharmony (or whatever they call it) and could face up to five years in prison!

[KingMerv00]

I had fascinating things to say but then I saw the word "Chinks" and decided that this thread sucks.

FWIW, pseudoephedrine is legal in America. Somewhat regulated but perfectly legal. Someone asked if there are alternatives to pseudoephedrine. Yes, it was partly replaced by phenylephrine a few years ago following the aforementioned regulations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#Substitute_for_pseudoephedrine

[Cleon]

As someone who currently has the sniffles, let me tell you that you can pry my Sudafed from my cold, dead hands!

[KingMerv00]

As someone who currently has the sniffles, let me tell you that you can pry my Sudafed from my cold, dead hands!

I used to work as a chemist in a Tylenol factory. The concensus there was that phenylephrine does not work as well as pseudoephedrine. (Take that with a grain of salt. I'm not a biologist or doctor.)

[Cleon]

I used to work as a chemist in a Tylenol factory. The concensus there was that phenylephrine does not work as well as pseudoephedrine. (Take that with a grain of salt. I'm not a biologist or doctor.)

That was my own conclusion after trying "Sudafed PE." I'd rather hand my ID over and let the pharmacist put me on The List.

[KingMerv00]

That was my own conclusion after trying "Sudafed PE." I'd rather hand my ID over and let the pharmacist put me on The List.

I think PHE was the original active ingredient long ago but was replaced by PSE because it was more effective. It wasn't until someone "thought of the children" that PHE became popular again.

From a chemist's standpoint, PHE sucks the big one. It degrades into a million hard to track compounds over time. I'm sure it is perfectly safe, but it generates a lot of annoying paperwork.

[Professor Yaffle]

Pseudoephindrine products are also perfectly legal in the UK and can be bought OTC from a pharmacist with a limit on pack size and amount bought in a transaction. But we don't have a major meth problem here.

[The Atheist]

I'm far more disturbed and frankly confused by a recent report that China has arrested some guy for setting up a website offering support to babies affected by the tainted milk powder scandal - a scandal that the Chinese government has convicted several people for.

Get this... the guy is charged with causing trouble and stirring up disharmony (or whatever they call it) and could face up to five years in prison!

Filthy regime.

It sickens me how we suck up to them.

[KingMerv00]

It sickens me how we suck up to them.

Ah, but your sickness doesn't include a stuffy nose.

[The Atheist]

Ah, but your sickness doesn't include a stuffy nose.


Doesn't enter the equation for me as I never use pseudoephedrine.

[KingMerv00]

Doesn't enter the equation for me as I never use pseudoephedrine.

How could you? "Most" of it has been turned into meth.