September 11th Memorial-Just too much.

[HarryKeogh]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/01/06/wtc.memorial/index.html

To me it seems a terrific waste of land. Land that could be used to house people, conduct global commerce and educate children. Instead it seems it is going to be turned into a theme park of a memorial, a tourist attraction. Do we really need this to remember those who were killed that day? I would have found a wall with a simple listing of the names, perhaps accompanied with a photo and a biography of the deceased much more poignant than two giant reflecting pools. I find rebuilding and moving on with our lives much more comforting than a borderline gaudy memorial. To me it just smacks of excess, something a memorial shouldn't be.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Not to be too flippant, but in Isreal when the Palestinians blow up a Sbarro... the Isrealis rebuild the Sbarro.

I'm not suggesting the WTC should be rebuilt, but a nice memorial in the midst of rebuilt commercial buildings would suffice.

[jj]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Not to be too flippant, but in Isreal when the Palestinians blow up a Sbarro... the Isrealis rebuild the Sbarro.

I'm not suggesting the WTC should be rebuilt, but a nice memorial in the midst of rebuilt commercial buildings would suffice.

I think they should be rebuilt, with twice the office space, and that the shape should be the "raised finger" proposed days after the event, too.

[Libertarian]

I know this isn't politcally correct, but I think we Americans are memorial-crazy. Ever since the Vietnam memorial was a hit, the designers of so many of these things are SO creative that their memorials invariably use the gimmick of listing each and every name, or symbolizing each and every life lost (eg. the chairs in OK city).

Have they broken ground on the Washington mall yet, for the WWII memorial? They're going to ruin the mall with some huge monument, when this country is already a living memorial to the WWII veterans.

I think this trend has something to do with the unsurprising reluctance to tell people who have lost a loved one that a few thousand pounds of concrete or bronze isn't appropriate. Or to tell the supporters of veterans that, even tho' they've lost their lives, etc. etc. etc. I suspect this is why (as I read somewhere) that more veterans hospitals are being built, even tho' the number of veterans is declining.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Unfortunately, America has become a nation of whiners. You could also call it the Oprah-fication of America. Everytime someone drops dead, there is some group screaming for a memorial. Fine. You want a memorial, pay for it yourself. My Aunt died tragically - where is her memorial?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Not to be too flippant, but in Isreal when the Palestinians blow up a Sbarro... the Isrealis rebuild the Sbarro.

Hear, hear. Why not get Trump on the phone? He's been itching to build the world's tallest building. I'd say give him the parcel of land free just so he could do it. Sure, Trump is a sleaze but the man knows how to put up a big building where no one else thinks it would work.

I'm not suggesting the WTC should be rebuilt, but a nice memorial in the midst of rebuilt commercial buildings would suffice.

Sure, a nice permanent, tasteful display in the lobby. Proper memorials are to remember, not to constantly refresh anguish. It's the same difference between looking at a scar and picking at a scab.

[Libertarian]

And what about yellow ribbons?? Whether or not you support the current war, you have to wonder what the enemy thinks when the USA sends its kids to battle, and the first thing on CNN is a picture of some small town with a row of oaks bedecked with yellow ribbons.

Damn you, Tony Orlando!

[Jocko]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Unfortunately, America has become a nation of whiners. You could also call it the Oprah-fication of America. Everytime someone drops dead, there is some group screaming for a memorial. Fine. You want a memorial, pay for it yourself. My Aunt died tragically - where is her memorial?

For example, look at the roadside memorials you see every few miles on the highways and interstates. I mean, death is tragic, sure, but these ad-hoc teddy bear/candles/photo shrines are macabre, if you ask me. Not everyone and everything needs to be enshrined in a bloody memorial.

A few years back one of these things popped up overnight a few blocks from my house. I found out that a local kid (well, maybe not a kid, he was 20 or so) had been pulling stupid stunts on his friend's motorcycle when he - surprise, surprise - rammed into a lamp post and killed himself. Now the lamp post is bedecked like John John Kennedy saluting his father's coffin. Ribbons and all manner of crap... for stupidly killing one's self on a motorcycle, a totally preventable death had his assh*le gene been kept in check.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Libertarian
And what about yellow ribbons?? Whether or not you support the current war, you have to wonder what the enemy thinks when the USA sends its kids to battle, and the first thing on CNN is a picture of some small town with a row of oaks bedecked with yellow ribbons.

Damn you, Tony Orlando!
How a song about a man wondering if his girlfriend stayed true to him while he was in prison becomes a national symbol of rememberance is tragic in and of itself.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Jocko


For example, look at the roadside memorials you see every few miles on the highways and interstates. I mean, death is tragic, sure, but these ad-hoc teddy bear/candles/photo shrines are macabre, if you ask me. Not everyone and everything needs to be enshrined in a bloody memorial.


I've often thought that if I owned the property where these shrines are placed, I would be out there every day removing them. I would make the losers come back every day and replace them.

[Troll]

I just wanted to beat AUP to the connection here. From the article:

"Like four other finalists, Arad lives in New York City. He has been living in the United States since completing military service in the Israeli army in 1991."

Just goes to show another way the US is making peopel suffer in othe rplaces of the world by contributing to the Israeli Military.;)

[Paladin]

Of course there should be a memorial. We need to be reminded of the people who died that day. We need to be reminded that our freedom, such as it is, is threatened by enemies both foreign and domestic. We may or may not be "memorial-crazy", but we are also notoriously forgetful. Yes, the venture will likely attract any number of commercial enterprises, from souvenir-sellers to tourism agencies to sidewalk artists, and yes, politicians will take as much advantage of the memorial as they can. Despite all this, we do need to be reminded not only of the deaths, but of the heroism of many, many people.

It's easy to scoff at sentiment, but memorials such as this have their place, and they serve a useful purpose, if only to remind ourselves of the fragility of what Harlan Ellison called our "thin veneer of civilization".

[nemo]

As someone who lives near ground zero, who lived through the smoke and soot and everything else, I think the winning memorial design is very good. I would have preferred using some of the original scraps of metal from the towers, but I think the two pools are a fitting memorial. My first reaction to Sept. 11th was to put it into the past and show that it won't affect me as a tough New Yorker. But we need to be reminded, and this simple memorial fits the bill. There is a controversy over whether the names of the rescuers should be distinguished among the victims. I say no, they should all be presented together, indistinguishable. I'm sure there were many civilians at the WTC who were just as heroic as the firefighters and police.

[epepke]

Originally posted by jj


I think they should be rebuilt, with twice the office space, and that the shape should be the "raised finger" proposed days after the event, too.

I agree. But please let's do a central pillar construction this time.

The only trouble with twice the office space was that the WTC was having trouble finding renters as it was, so maybe half of it should be housing-rated.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by nemo
As someone who lives near ground zero, who lived through the smoke and soot and everything else, I think the winning memorial design is very good. I would have preferred using some of the original scraps of metal from the towers, but I think the two pools are a fitting memorial. My first reaction to Sept. 11th was to put it into the past and show that it won't affect me as a tough New Yorker. But we need to be reminded, and this simple memorial fits the bill. There is a controversy over whether the names of the rescuers should be distinguished among the victims. I say no, they should all be presented together, indistinguishable. I'm sure there were many civilians at the WTC who were just as heroic as the firefighters and police.

Yes, but a memorial should do more than remember the dead. It should remember the day, and all that came of it.

Yes, the thousands killed. But we should also honor those who survived, and just as importantly, those who rebuilt (both their lives and, by extension, the site). To dedicate the site only to the loss and the pain without remembering the way a world united - if only for a moment - is a waste.

Funerals are for the survivors, they say. So let it be with the WTC site. Let it not only remind us of the blow dealt to America, but how America dealt with the blow.

[jj]

Originally posted by epepke


I agree. But please let's do a central pillar construction this time.

The only trouble with twice the office space was that the WTC was having trouble finding renters as it was, so maybe half of it should be housing-rated.

That wouldn't hurt.

[Libertarian]

Not to hijack this thread, but I've always wanted to ask the following question of this forum:

What if 9/11 had been "only" planes crashing into the WTC, and NOT the total collapse of the buildings? Would the US have reacted differently? How would the world look today? (I consider the total collapse of the buildings to be an accident of architecture -- that early video of Osama Bin Laden revealed that the collapse was an unexpected event).

And then I wonder: what if the last plane HAD destroyed the White House or the Capitol? Would the US response have been the same or much greater? How would the world look today? Would our "national psyche" been harmed even more? Would Ashcroft be doing more?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

They just had some loser lady on CNN whining about the design. Whaaaaaaaa!!! We don't like it! Whaaaaaa. We want this. Whaaaaaaa. We want that! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

News flash: The world doesn't owe you a damn thing. If you want a memorial built a certain way, then buy the land and build your own memorial. Now I know you'll whine "We caaaaaaaaan't dooooooo thaaaaaaat". In which case, THEN SHUT THE F*CK UP!

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Not to hijack this thread, but I've always wanted to ask the following question of this forum:

What if 9/11 had been "only" planes crashing into the WTC, and NOT the total collapse of the buildings? Would the US have reacted differently? How would the world look today? (I consider the total collapse of the buildings to be an accident of architecture -- that early video of Osama Bin Laden revealed that the collapse was an unexpected event).

And then I wonder: what if the last plane HAD destroyed the White House or the Capitol? Would the US response have been the same or much greater? How would the world look today? Would our "national psyche" been harmed even more? Would Ashcroft be doing more?

If you mean the symbolic value of losing the White House, not the mechanics of replacing a dead president? I don't think it would have mattered that much. I still remember that day as if it were yesterday and I can't imagine being more shocked, more afraid or more angry.

Which isn't to say that it wasn't possible, only that I couldn't imagine it. What more could we have done, except nuked Afghanistan, which would be pointless since it wouldn't look significantly different afterward? Except for the glowing at night part, that is.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Not to hijack this thread, but I've always wanted to ask the following question of this forum:

What if 9/11 had been "only" planes crashing into the WTC, and NOT the total collapse of the buildings? Would the US have reacted differently? How would the world look today? (I consider the total collapse of the buildings to be an accident of architecture -- that early video of Osama Bin Laden revealed that the collapse was an unexpected event).

And then I wonder: what if the last plane HAD destroyed the White House or the Capitol? Would the US response have been the same or much greater? How would the world look today? Would our "national psyche" been harmed even more? Would Ashcroft be doing more?

Interesting question.

I think that if the only attacks had been on the Pentagon, not too many people would have cared. If an attack on the White House had succeeded, there just might be some radioacive cinders on the planet now.

If the towers had not collapsed, the reaction would have been weaker, I think.

[richardm]

I think it's a much more worthy subject for a memorial pool than the Princess of Wales, anyway. (Although as my better half observed: "It's an appropriate memorial for her, really - it's going to be shallow")

The problem with building another tall building on the site must be: "Are people going to be happy working in it"?

[UnrepentantSinner]

I want to clarify my comments from earlier. I'm all in favor of well planned, well thought out memorials that actually commemorate an event or era. Two examples that I think are artistially brilliant as well as evocative are the D-Day Memorial and the Oklahoma City/Murrah building Memorial.
http://www1.roanoke.com/dday/info/map.html
http://www.oklahomacitynationalmemorial.org/symbolic/concepts.html
But the facts are that Bedford, VA and Oklahoma City, OK have space to build large memorials. Lower Manhattan is some of the most expensive real estate in the world. No one's memory or heroic actions on 9/11 should be slighted just to put up another office complex but a balance between a complete rebuild and a shrine should be part of any design the city goes with.

[Tmy]

It will be impossible to make a memorial that will gain full support.

This is going to sound cold, but the many of 911 victims seem to be quite demanding. Like the entire country owes them. We all feel bad for what happend but hey, bad shiznit goes down all the time.

I agree that we have gone memorial cazy. Locally people are trying to raise money for Civil War memorial. AS IF THERE ARENT ENOUGH. Then theres the never ending fights over WHO to name new govt' buildings after. The new Big Dig Tunnel in Bostonis a prime example. Im sick of things being named for politicians who did nothing more than live a comfy life and spend tax payer money.

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by epepke

I think that if the only attacks had been on the Pentagon, not too many people would have cared. If an attack on the White House had succeeded, there just might be some radioacive cinders on the planet now.


Thank god the US didn't have nuclear weapons in 1812.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0920_washingtonwar.html

Anyway, wouldn't it be a major sign that the US has started looking to the past rather than the future when it starts hallowing large tracts of prime land?

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by Tmy
This is going to sound cold, but the many of 911 victims seem to be quite demanding. Like the entire country owes them. We all feel bad for what happend but hey, bad shiznit goes down all the time.

agreed. the government is not required to make these cash payouts to the victims' families. just take the money, hopefully do something productive with it and stop asking for more.

i read on msnbc.com a family victim complaining that the memorial doesnt capture the horror of 9/11.

what would?

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by HarryKeogh

i read on msnbc.com a family victim complaining that the memorial doesnt capture the horror of 9/11.

what would?

Doing it again every year!

(There was a letter in Viz, a British adult comic, which said, "After all the talk of the 11th of September, I was horrified to look in my calender and see there's another one planned for this year. When oh when will these people learn?")

[Hexxenhammer]

Just so I've got this straight, this memorial AND that big freakin' building are going up at the site right?

[VicDaring]

Originally posted by HarryKeogh

i read on msnbc.com a family victim complaining that the memorial doesnt capture the horror of 9/11.

what would?

And why would you want to?

People (is this just Americans?) sometimes define themselves through their victimhood.

This too, may sound cold, but a certain percentage of 9-11 victim's families are going to screech no matter what. At a certain point, the rest of us have to just make a decision to move on with life and let them wail.

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
Just so I've got this straight, this memorial AND that big freakin' building are going up at the site right?

i lifted this quote from foxnews.com

The memorial will be one of two focal points at the trade center site, along with the 1,776-foot glass skyscraper known as the Freedom Tower. Four other buildings are planned where the trade center once stood.

[Skeptic]

In my opinion, the best memorial would be two identical twin towers, as tall or taller, with a plaque in the front dedicating one of the building to all the victims of the attacks on sept. 11th, and another specifically to the firemen, cops, and emergency workers who lost their lives that day.

[Tmy]

They should build a nice memorial/musem on one of the sites. A nice building filled with photos ect... Then you really can convey what happend.

Didnt they have a contest to decide the memorial. People submitted ideas along with a $100 fee? That was probably a money making scam.