Wake up Europe! It's real

[rwguinn]

How did a guy get ANY kind of incendiaries (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-detroit-airline26-2009dec26,0,7667849.story)past security? Does Europe give a damn? What's up? Or has the war on terrorism become a US only problem?

[Thunder]

dude, you can bring a lighter on an American airplane. what stopping someone from filling a damn sock with black powder and using that to blow up a damn airplane window?

[BenBurch]

dude, you can bring a lighter on an American airplane. what stopping someone from filling a damn sock with black powder and using that to blow up a damn airplane window?

1. Nitrates. There are detectors. Black powder is about a third nitrate.

2. Sock. Black powder is not a high explosive and so needs a fairly strong container to make a reasonable explosion. In a sock it would just burn you and everybody around you. Would get put out by fire extinguishers, and wouldn't be very effective terrorism.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Why does Europe hate America?

[rwguinn]

Why does Europe hate America?
"They hate our freedoms"TM

[coalesce]

Maybe the first tip-off that this guy was a terrorist was that he WANTED to go to Detroit...

Michael

[Hutch]

It appears he started the trip in Nigeria, so perhaps Lagos Security needs some examining. He was transisting via Amsterdam-Schipol.

I've been through Schipol, they do check your tickets and passports at the gate and run you/your hand baggage through a scanner at the boarding gates, so this character couldn't have gotten too much by them. All told it's better security than most US airports.

We shall see.

[Thunder]

Why does Europe hate America?

the great majority of Europeans I have met in my many travels, actually have respected Americans and America.

but then there was this one Dutch girl in Montreal, who hated Americans...but ended up screwing the first horny soul she could find.

:)

[BenBurch]

Appears Al-Queyda connections.

OK, President Obama. Kill them all. Prisoners are a problem. Take none.

[Rogue1stclass]

dude, you can bring a lighter on an American airplane. what stopping someone from filling a damn sock with black powder and using that to blow up a damn airplane window?

No you can't take a lighter on an American plane.

You can take one book of matches. Any lighters will be confisgated at security if it is found.

That's a pretty big if, though. My girlfriend seems to always have on in her purse that is always missed. And if people see you with it passed security, no one will say anything despite the fact that you aren't supposed to have it.

Black powder isn't considered an explosive. It works in gun barrels because it burns relatively quickly and evenly. If it was explosive like, say, TNT, it would rupture the barrel. You can get an explosion using black powder by putting in a sealed container, but you can do the same with mentos and coke (not to say that mentos and coke would be as dangerous as a BP explosion...).

[Ausmerican]

No you can't take a lighter on an American plane.

You can take one book of matches. Any lighters will be confisgated at security if it is found.

That's a pretty big if, though. My girlfriend seems to always have on in her purse that is always missed. And if people see you with it passed security, no one will say anything despite the fact that you aren't supposed to have it.

Untrue. TSA regs changed Aug 4, 2007. Regular lighters are allowed in carry on luggage. Butane torch type lighters are still banned however.

[Dr Adequate]

How did a guy get ANY kind of incendiaries (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-detroit-airline26-2009dec26,0,7667849.story)past security? Does Europe give a damn? What's up? Or has the war on terrorism become a US only problem? Yes, it has. Since the Madrid bombing, and 7/7, Europeans have decided that the terrorists who keep blowing them up don't exist.

Of course, to dissimulate this, Europeans have put on a big show of heightening airport security. But in their heart of hearts, obviously what they meant was that terrorists could kill whomsoever they pleased.

Anyone who tries to exculpate Europeans for the evil wicked things that anti-European terrorists have done is losing sight of the one ultimate moral principle, that you must always blame the victim. Unless, of course, we're talking about 9/11, which was in no way the fault of President Bush.

But, that one singular exception aside, we have to admit that every time that terrorists suceede fail, it's because the European nations just aren't trying to avert acts of terrorism against them. The fact is that just because they live a few thousand miles to the east of the USA, their whole ideology can be summed up as: "Please kill us in the name of Allah!"

And then people ask why I laugh at right-wing Americans. It can't possibly be because they're crazy in the head, there must be some other reason.

[Rogue1stclass]

Untrue. TSA regs changed Aug 4, 2007. Regular lighters are allowed in carry on luggage. Butane torch type lighters are still banned however.

They certainly took ours last January. Well, the one they found.

Though, I do believe you. Is it bad that I trust a random person on the Internet to know TSA regs better than a TSA officer?

[KingMerv00]

Post deleted. Factual error.

[SezMe]

The OP is one of the most extreme examples of extrapolated silliness I have seen. First, the perp went through Amsterdam. How do security procedures there reflect all of Europe? How does a breach of security in one airport in one city in Europe get extrapolated to Europeans not giving a damn?

How many passengers pass through all European airports annually? ONE failure might be indicative of a failure rate of, say, 0.001%. Can you, rwguinn, find another system designed and implemented by humans with such a low failure rate?

Certainly this event should result in some serious sercurity reviews, some increased training and maybe even some heads rolling. But it should not be used to extrapolate beyond all reasonable bounds.

[Ootsruoypu]

1. The perp flew to Detroit via Amsterdam from Lagos, Nigeria which, I know, many Americans never heard of, let alone where it's located. Nigeria's North is Muslim, and Al Qaida progresses nicely there. 30 years ago, 16% of Nigeria was Muslim, today it's 62%. Though the majority is Sunni ("educated" in Saudi wahhabi style), the Shia segment is growing, compliments from Iran.

2. The "device" was a syringe with insulin, since he claimed to Amsterdam security that he was diabetic. The explosive powder he used was taped to his upper leg. No hand luggage X-Ray machine can detect that (of course) nor do the metal detectors one walks through. People sitting next to him didn't suspect anything when he started preparing his syringe. Security at Lagos airport is a joke: a few Naira and you're done. The more notes you wave, the faster you move to the front of the line. If the wad of bills is thick enough, you find yourself promoted to VIP: no security check at all.

3. Amsterdam security is 100x better than any US airport. How often I discovered after arriving on a flight from the US that I forgot to put my Swiss Army knife or sometimes a camping set with spoon, fork and knife in my check-in luggage instead of my hand luggage....

4. The best way to check for suspects at airports is the Israeli way. Look the passenger in the eyes, observe them how they behave, ask "strange" questions, see how they react, if necessary let them wait while their passport is taken and in plain sight have another security person check every page, and observe their behavior. It can be annoying and sometimes time-consuming, but it works very well.

:ISRAEL::NETHERLANDS::NETHERLANDSANTILLES

[a_unique_person]

Post deleted. Factual error.

Nominated!

[dafydd]

The OP is one of the most extreme examples of extrapolated silliness I have seen. First, the perp went through Amsterdam. How do security procedures there reflect all of Europe? How does a breach of security in one airport in one city in Europe get extrapolated to Europeans not giving a damn?

How many passengers pass through all European airports annually? ONE failure might be indicative of a failure rate of, say, 0.001%. Can you, rwguinn, find another system designed and implemented by humans with such a low failure rate?

Certainly this event should result in some serious sercurity reviews, some increased training and maybe even some heads rolling. But it should not be used to extrapolate beyond all reasonable bounds.

Hear hear!

[Dr Adequate]

The OP is one of the most extreme examples of extrapolated silliness I have seen. First, the perp went through Amsterdam. How do security procedures there reflect all of Europe? How does a breach of security in one airport in one city in Europe get extrapolated to Europeans not giving a damn?

How many passengers pass through all European airports annually? ONE failure might be indicative of a failure rate of, say, 0.001%. Can you, rwguinn, find another system designed and implemented by humans with such a low failure rate?

Certainly this event should result in some serious sercurity reviews, some increased training and maybe even some heads rolling. But it should not be used to extrapolate beyond all reasonable bounds. OK, I'll agree that that was a nice post. But I still think that laughing at drooling contemptible halfwits is more fun.

[Merko]

Not sure how serious a failure it was, though.

So according to the reports, this thing did take fire. But it did not explode. So I think it remains very unclear how much potential harm there really was here.

[Malerin]

Al Queda needs a new trick. I can say without hyperbole, if an Arabic-looking man even sneezes wrong, he's gonna get jumped by about a million passengers.

[Safe-Keeper]

How did a guy get ANY kind of incendiaries (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-detroit-airline26-2009dec26,0,7667849.story)past security? Does Europe give a damn? I know, it's mind-boggling. Like that country where they allowed 12 people to board four different planes, hijack them, and run them into...

Oh, wait, that was the USA...

[rwguinn]

I know, it's mind-boggling. Like that country where they allowed 12 people to board four different planes, hijack them, and run them into...

Oh, wait, that was the USA...
Or like the country, after 19 people boarded 4 different airplanes and hijacked them, and security measures put in place everywhere, that allowed a guy with a bomb to board and try to blow it up mid-Atlantic...
Get off your *********** European Superiority complex. I asked a question. Is a civil, thought-out discussion beyond you ******** over there? Or is it all just the USA's fault, and you want to make sure we know?

[Peephole]

Does Europe give a damn?
Not about you we don't.

[Arcade22]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/188094b2d519eb5ec4.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=18509)

[Pardalis]

Not about you we don't.

Funny, seeing how you keep posting about US internal politics on these forums.

[Thunder]

I'm really not a fan of all this Euro-bashing. we need them as much as they need us.

[Peephole]

Funny, seeing how you keep posting about US internal politics on these forums.
You say "funny", but I don"t believe for one second that you have a sense of humour.

[mbp]

Does Europe give a damn? What's up?Two years ago, flying from Ecuador to Denmark via Miami and London, I somehow managed to forget that I had a bottle of water in my carry on luggage. But this wasn't discovered until i reached London.
Does America give a damn? What's up?

[Eyeron]

Hot air balloons are what's up.

[Thunder]

Hot air balloons are what's up.

that...is profound.

[SezMe]

OK, I'll agree that that was a nice post. But I still think that laughing at drooling contemptible halfwits is more fun.
You have a point...which puts you one up on the OP.

[Skeptic]

Is a civil, thought-out discussion beyond you ******** over there?

I think it's too late for that, for some reason...

[Whiplash]

EDIT: removed personal attack. I shouldn't have done that. Knee jerk reaction that I caught after the fact, I retract what I said.

[Architect]

Yes, it has. Since the Madrid bombing, and 7/7, Europeans have decided that the terrorists who keep blowing them up don't exist.

Of course, to dissimulate this, Europeans have put on a big show of heightening airport security. But in their heart of hearts, obviously what they meant was that terrorists could kill whomsoever they pleased.

Anyone who tries to exculpate Europeans for the evil wicked things that anti-European terrorists have done is losing sight of the one ultimate moral principle, that you must always blame the victim. Unless, of course, we're talking about 9/11, which was in no way the fault of President Bush.

But, that one singular exception aside, we have to admit that every time that terrorists suceede fail, it's because the European nations just aren't trying to avert acts of terrorism against them. The fact is that just because they live a few thousand miles to the east of the USA, their whole ideology can be summed up as: "Please kill us in the name of Allah!"

And then people ask why I laugh at right-wing Americans. It can't possibly be because they're crazy in the head, there must be some other reason.

Would these be Irish-American right wing Americans who actually helped fund terrorism in certain bits of Europe and helped ensure that we've always had rather more robust airport security than pre 9-11 US airports?

[9/11-investigator]

the great majority of Europeans I have met in my many travels, actually have respected Americans and America.

but then there was this one Dutch girl in Montreal, who hated Americans...but ended up screwing the first horny soul she could find.

:)

You? :D

Anyway, wouldn't be surprised if the batteries of the poor Nigerian SOB's laptop had exploded. These things do happen.

[Thunder]

You? :D

Anyway, wouldn't be surprised if the batteries of the poor Nigerian SOB's laptop had exploded. These things do happen.

no, instead of nailing her ONCE, I ended up hooking up with an Ozzy gal who came to visit me in NYC..for a week. One night of patience= 5 nights of hot sex!!!

:)

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/12/25/us.airline.incident.passengers/index.html

Passenger: Terror suspect seemed 'stunned'

(CNN) -- Syed Jafry was preparing for his plane to land in Detroit, Michigan, after a long flight from Amsterdam, Netherlands, when he heard a noise that startled him.

"There was a little bit of light, a little bit of -- kind of flamish light and there was fire," Jafry told CNN. "And people began to panic."

For a couple of seconds on Northwest Flight 253, nobody knew what was going on, he said.

That pop, officials say, came from a Nigerian man who ignited a small explosive device as the flight descended into the Detroit, Michigan, area. The White House described the incident as an attempted terrorist attack. The suspect was eventually subdued by passengers and crew.

"pop" --> probably overheated lithium-ion battery

As the commotion began, passengers didn't know what to think.

Jafry said he thought the man looked to be in his 20s.
Video: Passenger saw smoke on plane
Video: Suspect discussed
RELATED TOPICS

* Delta Air Lines Inc.
* Air Travel
* Northwest Airlines Corporation

Passenger Elias Fawaz told WDIV that the detonation sounded "like a balloon being popped" and said he could smell smoke.

That's when he saw a struggle in the cabin.

"We heard, 'What are you doing?' 'What are you doing?' " Fawaz told WDIV.

Within seconds a young man on the flight took matters into his own hands, according to Jafry and other passengers who spoke to CNN affiliate WXYZ-TV.

A man, sitting three or four rows behind Jafry jumped over a group of seats, tackled the suspect and put him in a headlock.

"He handled him pretty good, I think," Jafry said.

Jafry said other passengers and crew members then helped subdue the man and put out flames after the suspect's pants appeared to catch fire.

People screamed.

"Everybody was rushing towards that area and tried to get water," Jafry said, adding that people rushed the man with blankets and a fire extinguisher.

"They put out the fire, brought him up front where they stripped him down to make sure that he had nothing else," passenger Melinda Dennis told CNN affiliate WDIV.

Other passengers told WXYZ the injured suspect was put in the first row of first class.

"He appeared to be more stunned and surprised with the whole act," Jafry said of the suspect after he was subdued.

Most likely explanation: he had no idea what happened to him either.

Passengers, including Jafry, said they could see the suspect was burned on different parts of his body, but he didn't seem to say much or act as if he were in pain.

Jafry said soon after the suspect was moved to the front of the plane, the crew and pilot told passengers the incident was under control.

"And we were on the ground, I think between 10 to 20 minutes after the incident," Jafry said.

Jafry and other passengers were screened again and questioned for about four to five hours before finally being able to meet their friends and family, or reach connecting flights.

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/5657575/__Nigeriaan_onderging_controle__.html?p=26,1

This msg says that the chap was checked in Amsterdam.

He is probably innocent and this Dutch wannabee hero Jasper Schuringa will look like a fool tomorrow.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/5656080/__Hollandse_Jasper_pakte_terrorist__.html?p=4,1

[Tricky]

Al Queda needs a new trick. I can say without hyperbole, if an Arabic-looking man even sneezes wrong, he's gonna get jumped by about a million passengers.
Yeah, but this guy was Nigerian. He doesn't look even vaguely Arabic.

[9/11-investigator]

Did they find the box cutter already?

[Skeptic]

Did they find the box cutter already?

The Mossad stole it.

By the way, I hope your signature file is correct. I sure damn hope Israel's secret service, the Mossad, is ruthless and cunning!

[Thunder]

Did they find the box cutter already?

did i tell you about the time I spit on Peter Stuyvesant's tomb at St. Mark's Church?

:)

[portlandatheist]

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/5657575/__Nigeriaan_onderging_controle__.html?p=26,1

This msg says that the chap was checked in Amsterdam.

He is probably innocent and this Dutch wannabee hero Jasper Schuringa will look like a fool tomorrow.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/5656080/__Hollandse_Jasper_pakte_terrorist__.html?p=4,1

Just an innocent man lighting black powder on a plane right? Another victim of bullying. Jasper should be sent to Gitmo and the "chap" should be set free. Is that what you actually think?

You my friend, are nothing more than a troll and a terrorist sympathizer.

[9/11-investigator]

did i tell you about the time I spit on Peter Stuyvesant's tomb at St. Mark's Church?

Yes you did, but earlier you had promissed to p* on it.

Chicken.

Merry Christmas everybody.

[Thunder]

this was clearly a ZOG/Mossad operation to defame Muslims.

;)

[Thunder]

Yes you did, but earlier you had promissed to p* on it.

Chicken.

Merry Christmas everybody.

i have more respect then to wip out Mr. Willy in a church courtyard.

[9/11-investigator]

this was clearly a ZOG/Mossad operation to defame Muslims.

;)

This time I think it smells more like hysterical westerners who believe everything they see on the telly.

[9/11-investigator]

i have more respect then to wip out Mr. Willy in a church courtyard.


Mr Who?

[Thunder]

This time I think it smells more like hysterical westerners who believe everything they see on the telly.

is there any logical and rational reason NOT to believe what the MSM is telling us about this incident?

hmmmm?

[9/11-investigator]

is there any logical and rational reason NOT to believe what the MSM is telling us about this incident?

hmmmm?

Maybe he was a fool who took the Koran too seriously, I don't know.

BTW has somebody woken up NORAD already?

[Tmy]

Maybe the first tip-off that this guy was a terrorist was that he WANTED to go to Detroit...

Michael

Authorities discovered that the suspect was badly burned. Leading them to believe that he is a member of the Detriot Lions secondary. :D

[9/11-investigator]

From a Canadian government site:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/commerce/circulars/ac0260.htm

The purpose of this Commercial and Business Aviation Advisory Circular (CBAAC) is to alert air operators of the potential for in-flight fires caused by the failure of lithium ion and lithium batteries contained in portable laptop computers and other portable electronic devices.

Meanwhile it looks like it is more serious after all:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/5659284/__Nigeriaan_aangeklaagd__.html?p=1,1

The Muzzie was carrying PETN (never heard of that), a highly explosive material.

[Uzzy]

Speculation should wait until more facts are available, but the above posters comments belong in the conspiracy section of the forums, given the 'frame' job he's positing.

As to the OP, you do realise us 'Europeans' know about Terrorism, right? One potential failure hardly seems like a good basis to criticise our entire security operation, at least until more facts become available.

[Thunder]

Maybe he was a fool who took the Koran too seriously, I don't know.


so in other words, you have no logical nor rational reason do doubt the story as it is known so far.

thank you.

[leftysergeant]

The L.A. Times article mentions his having something strapped to his leg, into which he injected a liquid of some sort. My guess would be potassium permangante and sugar, perhaps with some thermite compound or powdered magnesium mixed in (though this is unlikely, since it should trip metal detectors.) It can be ignited with glycerine or fuming nitric or sulphuric acid. I would guess glycerine, since it is safer to handle up until it is introduced into the fire fudge mix, and nitric acid might trip nitrate detectors.

Scarey part of this is that it is undectable to the typical bom,b-sniffer, be it a dog or spectrometer. As for trhose who keep shrieking about racial profiling being the answer, how many black dudes are going to get onto a USA-bound aircraft in Lagos, out of a hundred passengers?

[plumjam]

Well, if I had 14 million dollars left to me by my Uncle Most Honourable Colonel Bongo-Kwa after his and his very Christian wife Bessie's tragic demise in a UN food mission Chinook helicopter accident, and I could only access it by transferring it to someone's account overseas, and no one was answering my ******* emails, I too might feel like blowing myself up.

[Eskarina]

Or like the country, after 19 people boarded 4 different airplanes and hijacked them, and security measures put in place everywhere, that allowed a guy with a bomb to board and try to blow it up mid-Atlantic...
Get off your *********** European Superiority complex. I asked a question. Is a civil, thought-out discussion beyond you ******** over there?

I think this post and your OP should answer your question quite nicely.

Or is it all just the USA's fault, and you want to make sure we know?

See above. Other than that: do you have evidence of a major F'up by the Schiphol authorities that could never happen in the US?

[leftysergeant]

Actually, the incendiary I described could probably be smuggled through even a sophisticated screening at an American airport.

The moron should have just put it in his carry-on, if it was what I am thinking it might have been. Tell Customs it is a form of Indian black salt. It would be about the right color.

[GlennB]

3. Amsterdam security is 100x better than any US airport. How often I discovered after arriving on a flight from the US that I forgot to put my Swiss Army knife or sometimes a camping set with spoon, fork and knife in my check-in luggage instead of my hand luggage....


We have passed through Schiphol several times. My wife is registered disabled and is allowed to carry a folding tubular alloy stool/walking aid. They pass this through the X-ray machine, then remove the rubber bungs from the feet and look inside. Fair enough, it could be a disguised gun or contain explosives.
There is a limit to security checking, beyond which air travel would become impossible. Is your credit card a viciously sharp fold-up knife? Maybe, so let's check every piece of plastic eh?

[leftysergeant]

Is your credit card a viciously sharp fold-up knife? Maybe, so let's check every piece of plastic eh?

Don't laugh. I have seen those at gun shows. Also belt buckles that contain an actual single-shot .22lr Derringer-type pistol.

Remember, people, that Timothy McVeigh would probably even clear today's screening, especially if they started profiling people on their appearance.

What is to keep some rabid racist granny with terminal lung cancer from taking out an airliner to get her Jewish congress critter?

[GlennB]

Don't laugh. I have seen those at gun shows. Also belt buckles that contain an actual single-shot .22lr Derringer-type pistol.


I wasn't joking. I recall that some years back one of the UK tabloids made a terrible fuss about exactly this kind of thing, but without ever suggesting what should be done about it. But short of examining every tiny item in depth then we never have total security without 10-hour queues to get on a flight.

[dudalb]

Taking bets as to how long until 9/11 Investigator declares that the Jews are behing the latest incident......

[TriskettheKid]

Apparently, there was another incident today.

Same flight, too. Also a Nigerian.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/27/michigan.airplane.disruption/index.html

[Thunder]

Taking bets as to how long until 9/11 Investigator declares that the Jews are behing the latest incident......

there are a few Jews in Holland. there are a few Jews in Nigeria.

ifso-facto......quid-pro-quo...da Joos did it!!!!!

[Thunder]

Apparently, there was another incident today.

Same flight, too. Also a Nigerian.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/27/michigan.airplane.disruption/index.html

wait, the plane was headed for Detroit?

well hell..let that thing blow up then.

:D

[BenBurch]

Maybe they need to just have everybody strip naked, pass through the metal detectors, and then put on blue Tyvek jumpsuit and disposable slippers on the other side.

[TriskettheKid]

Maybe they need to just have everybody strip naked, pass through the metal detectors, and then put on blue Tyvek jumpsuit and disposable slippers on the other side.

Or we could try and adopt El Al's security measures.

Unless there's another airline out there that is more secure.

Then again, it may not be the most cost effective, as El Al has, what, 40 planes in their fleet?

[shadron]

...

3. Amsterdam security is 100x better than any US airport. How often I discovered after arriving on a flight from the US that I forgot to put my Swiss Army knife or sometimes a camping set with spoon, fork and knife in my check-in luggage instead of my hand luggage....

You mean that Holland's national security theatre is 100x better than the USA's? Must be the culture.

[Ootsruoypu]

You mean that Holland's national security theatre is 100x better than the USA's? Must be the culture.

Very sensitive, I see.....

There are indeed instances that something happens to be better elsewhere than in G*d bless America. I know it can hurt, but truly, it's possible...

It's disturbing for 95.5% of the world's population to hear those perpetual slogans that the USA is the greatest and best place on earth.
In many statistics, from economics [sic] to health care, from teenage pregnancy rates to the high prison population, from the extremely high criminal crime rate to international donations, from energy waste to food waste, from drug addiction to the great divide between poor and rich: the US of A doesn't really score so well.

So, yes: the quality of security at US Airports is dismal. Security personnel are hardly focused on their jobs, more interested in their nails and chatting with colleagues. Their training is minimal, and the job requirements the same as for a hamburger flipper at MacDo.
All the US can do is react AFTER something has happened already (as 5-6 times after earlier incidents), and in such a manner that it looks more like panic than anything else.

[NoZed Avenger]

the great majority of Europeans I have met in my many travels, actually have respected Americans and America.

but then there was this one Dutch girl in Montreal, who hated Americans...but ended up screwing the first horny soul she could find.


Jesus. Can we not have *one* thread without bringing up Tiger Woods?

[Thunder]

Jesus. Can we not have *one* thread without bringing up Tiger Woods?

Oh no you didn't!!!!!

:p

[patchbunny]

Black powder isn't considered an explosive.

Actually, it is. It fits into the category of Low Explosives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_material).

[Undesired Walrus]

How did a guy get ANY kind of incendiaries (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-detroit-airline26-2009dec26,0,7667849.story)past security? Does Europe give a damn? What's up? Or has the war on terrorism become a US only problem?

Is that why a Dutch man tackled him to the ground whilst the terrorist was on fire?

[portlandatheist]

Just an update:
Al Qaeda takes responsibility and
AbdulMutallab's family said Monday it had told authorities about his "out of character" behavior and hoped that authorities would intervene.
Link (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/28/airline.terror.attempt/index.html)
Hey 9/11 Investigator, you should let his own family know that he was innocent and that Japser was a "fool" as you say.

[egslim]

Scarey part of this is that it is undectable to the typical bom,b-sniffer, be it a dog or spectrometer. As for trhose who keep shrieking about racial profiling being the answer, how many black dudes are going to get onto a USA-bound aircraft in Lagos, out of a hundred passengers?
That's the crux of the matter. With the immense volume of worldwide airline traffic, it's impossible to secure effectively against people who use ingenuity and self-sacrifice.

And if you're a foreigner wanting to attack the US, then the most convenient time to do so is on your flight to the US. Entering the US first and staying there before taking your final flight is an unnecessary risk.

So we'll forever be stuck with dumb Americans blaming the rest of the world.

[rwguinn]

That's the crux of the matter. With the immense volume of worldwide airline traffic, it's impossible to secure effectively against people who use ingenuity and self-sacrifice.

And if you're a foreigner wanting to attack the US, then the most convenient time to do so is on your flight to the US. Entering the US first and staying there before taking your final flight is an unnecessary risk.

So we'll forever be stuck with dumb Americans blaming the rest of the world.
Turn about is fair play?
on context:
It appears that there is sufficient fault to spread the blame everywhere on this little fiasco. Warnings ignored/shoved into bureaucratic holes, "watch Lists" ignored, inadequate screenings, all that.
I mean--no checked bags, no carry-on, one way... All that SHOULD trigger some sort of alert, no?
ETA-and since you used "dumb", which means "incapable of intelligent speech", I can only assume you mean it as a synonym for stupid. Since I am the OP here, are you talking to me?

[Corsair 115]

TIt appears that there is sufficient fault to spread the blame everywhere on this little fiasco. Warnings ignored/shoved into bureaucratic holes, "watch Lists" ignored, inadequate screenings, all that.
I mean--no checked bags, no carry-on, one way... All that SHOULD trigger some sort of alert, no?


The above would appear to be at odds with the title of the thread.

[rwguinn]

The above would appear to be at odds with the title of the thread.
So you have never revised a hypothesis when additional information comes to light?
Ok-if that's the way you wanna be, so be it. I personally don't give a damn about the rest of the world, then. Nuke 'em all

[funk de fino]

Or like the country, after 19 people boarded 4 different airplanes and hijacked them, and security measures put in place everywhere, that allowed a guy with a bomb to board and try to blow it up mid-Atlantic...
Get off your *********** European Superiority complex. I asked a question. Is a civil, thought-out discussion beyond you ******** over there? Or is it all just the USA's fault, and you want to make sure we know?

Clueless then eh? Ever flown through Schipol?

[Darth Rotor]

So you have never revised a hypothesis when additional information comes to light?
Ok-if that's the way you wanna be, so be it. I personally don't give a damn about the rest of the world, then. Nuke 'em allI could do without the nuclear winter that goes with that, actually. My golf courses need the sunshine and rain, and less ozone.

(See recent SciAm article on India/Pak nuclear exchange, 50 vs 50 Hiroshima sized bombs for a neat look at the odds of that making for a bloody mess, globally).

DR

[rwguinn]

I could do without the nuclear winter that goes with that, actually. My golf courses need the sunshine and rain, and less ozone.

(See recent SciAm article on India/Pak nuclear exchange, 50 vs 50 Hiroshima sized bombs for a neat look at the odds of that making for a bloody mess, globally).

DR
Ok, for the sake of flog courses, I'll tolerate most of 'em. Long as they don't piss me off any further.

[Darat]

Sadly it appears that "Europe" was wide awake in this incident and it was the USA that was soundly asleep - :( Hopefully Obama really has "kicked some ass" as I believe you USA folk like to say.

[Eddie Dane]

Nominated!

Nominated!

[Eddie Dane]

I just read Art Of The Steal by Frank Abagnale, of Catch Me If You Can-fame.

It's about how con-men operate and it scared the crap out of me.

The thing is. In order to do a lot of things in an advanced society, we need to set up complex systems. That is difficult. Then people who want exploit those systems start looking for holes. And there are plenty of those. Then the systems need to be adapted to close those holes, often in ways that make it expensive to run a system, or even impossible.

Air travel is a probably favourite target becuase it kills quite a few people and has a psychological impact becuase we are all afraid of flying in a way.
But as the securtity measures get ever better and more holes are closed, terrorists will completely disregard air travel as a target.
The madrid bombings killed about two-hundred if I remember correctly. there are no security checks and you can just leave your bag and walk away.

I fear that they will change their focus more than continued attacks on airlines.

[rwguinn]

Sadly it appears that "Europe" was wide awake in this incident and it was the USA that was soundly asleep - :( Hopefully Obama really has "kicked some ass" as I believe you USA folk like to say.
Yeah. The USA knows everything that goes on. The CIA knew the guy was on a flight to Amsterdam with no luggage, a 1 way ticket bought with cash, and didn't bother to tell anyone in Europe about it. Then, they knew he got on a plane to Detroit, with no luggage and a 1 way ticket bought with cash, and didn't tell Amsterdam authorities. The CIA refused to stop him, and the CIA didn't even ask him questions, even though they control all airports in the world...

[Darat]

Yeah. The USA knows everything that goes on. The CIA knew the guy was on a flight to Amsterdam with no luggage, a 1 way ticket bought with cash, and didn't bother to tell anyone in Europe about it. Then, they knew he got on a plane to Detroit, with no luggage and a 1 way ticket bought with cash, and didn't tell Amsterdam authorities. The CIA refused to stop him, and the CIA didn't even ask him questions, even though they control all airports in the world...

Did you get that strawman for your birthday? (Happy B'Day!)

[rwguinn]

Did you get that strawman for your birthday? (Happy B'Day!)
How the hell is that a strawman?
You blamed the US for beiong asleep, but the guy entered from--Europe? The European authorities let him pass, not the US. The signals were there for THEM to see.

[Darat]

How the hell is that a strawman?
You blamed the US for beiong asleep, but the guy entered from--Europe? The European authorities let him pass, not the US. The signals were there for THEM to see.

Because I have not argued that the USA controls every airport and so on - yet you have attacked that argument as if it was an attack on an argument I had made.

Plus of course it's not me that is blaming the USA for being asleep, it is the President of the United States of America (OK he didn't use the phrase "being asleep" I was using your phrase to describe what he said).

[Thunder]

this guy should not have been allowed to get on a plane. this is a failure of America's intelligence network.

[Lurker]

Black powder is not a high explosive and so needs a fairly strong container to make a reasonable explosion. In a sock it would just burn you and everybody around you. Would get put out by fire extinguishers, and wouldn't be very effective terrorism.

As a kid, a friend of mine traded a Playboy for a handful of black powder. After school we piled it on the sidewalk and took turns trying to light the stuff with a match. Eventually, my friend "won" and the stuff went off in a whoosh of smoke. My friend had black on his face and the ends of his hairs had melted to little balls. Good times, good times.

ETA: My experience attests to black powder not being explosive in nature, merely a very fast burner. I felt no shock wave or even all that excessive heat. A heck of a lot of smoke though.

[rwguinn]

As a kid, a friend of mine traded a Playboy for a handful of black powder. After school we piled it on the sidewalk and took turns trying to light the stuff with a match. Eventually, my friend "won" and the stuff went off in a whoosh of smoke. My friend had black on his face and the ends of his hairs had melted to little balls. Good times, good times.

ETA: My experience attests to black powder not being explosive in nature, merely a very fast burner. I felt no shock wave or even all that excessive heat. A heck of a lot of smoke though.
(most) Smokeless powder burns even slower when not confined. As a matter of fact, an excellent emergency fire starter is made with the powder used for reloading pistol/rifle cartridges and nail polish remover. burns really slowly, and won't go out easily, even if wet.
Black powder burns really, really fast. But it is clo0see to the same rate of burn, even confined. Smokeless powder burns extremely fast under pressure--the more pressure, the faster the burn.

[tkingdoll]

There are 50 countries in Europe, each with different cultures, economies, politics, languages and histories. Always amazed when anyone considers Europe a 'whole' for anything, let alone trying to blame it for something. You might as well blame 'trees'.

[Architect]

They would, but they can't see the wood........

[Darat]

...for the terrorists.

[rwguinn]

There are 50 countries in Europe, each with different cultures, economies, politics, languages and histories. Always amazed when anyone considers Europe a 'whole' for anything, let alone trying to blame it for something. You might as well blame 'trees'.
I do.
Second only to Lisa...

[BeAChooser]

Al Queda needs a new trick.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-butt-bomb "The Butt Bomb"

[Almo]

Or has the war on terrorism become a US only problem?

You can't wage war on a tactic.

[Praktik]

but you can wage war on pony-tail wearin' Euro-trash.

rwguinn is the posse rounder-upper.