911 Truth as the Idolization of Insanity

[Scott Sommers]

Back when my dad was a young man, in the 1940s and 50s, the cutting edge image of rebellion was the deliquent. So we got a whole slew of 'cool' movies with the cool protaganist as some sort of 'rebel'. We didn't know what they were rebelling against, but then even they admitted that they were 'without a cause'.

So my dad grew up with this idea of cool. He bought a leather jacket and an Indian motorcycle. But all that was a long time ago. He got married, had a family, and the only thing left of this is memories and few photos.

By the time my brothers and I were growing up, the cutting edge of cool was the criminal, particularly the drug dealer. I grew up watching movies where the coolest characters were drug dealers and vice cops.

We did all kinds of rebelious things in this image. I have smoked dope and I inhaled. I never touch cigarettes and think smoking them is disgusting. But growing up on the West Coast, the image of drugs and cool was pretty strong.

And now, the folks of the 911 Truth Movement tell us that the cutting edge of rebellion is not a drug dealer, no, no. Now, it's a guy who doesn't do anything dangerous. He has no formal education in anything. He has no formal education in anything. No, no...now, he is a self-taught video expert or someone who has done 'his own research'. And he can say anything now. something so dellusional that only the insane would have said it. It's the kind of thing we used to hear only in a SciFi movies or some wierd book about robots or something. And now there's a bunch of guys telling us this is real.

But they're not insane. I've talked with many of them and they're clearly not hallucinating. I can only think that it's the same thing that happened with the generations of people in my family. There's this image of cool they've got. The long haired hip music producer, friend to the stars, self-taught video editor, and he's out there pushing the envelope. You can't tell the difference between what he says and what the schizophrenics who are so sick they're still looking for medications that can help, but it's all cool now.

I know there are some people in the TM who should be and probably are being medicated. But there are people posting here and other places. They're not insane. Why would they think it's so cool to play at being insane?

[Orphia Nay]

"Idolisation of Insanity"... I think you might be right. Most are not insane, but the theories are. Most don't take the theories to their "logical" conclusion and they don't believe they are being watched/mind controlled by the NWO, but we've seen those that do do that. DJLegacy, a former LC Forum mod comes to mind. Last I heard of him he was posting at a mind control / implant forum. Christophera just posted that "agents" follow him around the net.

[Scott Sommers]

I suspect there is a fair share of the truely insane hanging around 911 Truth. We here at JREF may even know some of them. I just can't understand why a well-adjusted teenager from a loving home would idolize ideas that only the insane could genuinely take seriously. I'm 47 and I suggested to my equally old friend this may be part of the 'generation gap' from my age. I though it was fun pretending I was criminal and cool. Perhaps those hanging around with 911 Truth feel it's fun pretending to be insane and cool.

[Liszt]

Is this your professional opinion?

Don't give up the day job. Damned pop psychologists. I suppose we should be thankful that you don't pretend to be a surgeon.

[Scott Sommers]

Funny thing, my day job is publishing stuff like this.

Damn Truthers, dress them up and still manage to spill ketchup all over themselves.

[Liszt]

Funny thing, my day job is publishing stuff like this.

Damn Truthers, dress them up and still manage to spill ketchup all over themselves.

Who? I'm not a truther. But I am qualified in psychology. You should try looking up "delusional" in the DSMIV. But you don't know what that is, do you?

And what is the "dressing up" analogy about? Get some sleep.

Also, if your day job is to publish stuff like this, I suggest you go and retrain. You are not a talented analyst.

[Scott Sommers]

Who? I'm not a truther. But I am qualified in psychology. You should try looking up "delusional" in the DSMIV. But you don't know what that is, do you?

And what is the "dressing up" analogy about? Get some sleep.

Also, if your day job is to publish stuff like this, I suggest you go and retrain. You are not a talented analyst.

You are "qualified" in psychology are you. That's great. Then you should know there other ways of talking about delusion and preference than the DSMIV. Or is what you really mean to say that Psychologists own these words now you have the DSM?

[Liszt]

Also, at 47, you are too old to be using the word "dude".

[cyclonic]

Also, at 47, you are too old to be using the word "dude".

There is no age limit on being cool,dude.
Chiill out,don't have a cow!

[defaultdotxbe]

And now, the folks of the 911 Truth Movement tell us that the cutting edge of rebellion is not a drug dealer, no, no. Now, it's a guy who doesn't do anything dangerous.
i have to disagree, the modern "cool" is the righteous rebel, Neo, V (as in "for Vendetta") and others who seek to "bring down the system"

the truthers of course, and many others, are wholly ineffectual at this, but any generation has their posers, and the posers tend to be the loudest ones, the internet just gives them a bigger bullhorn

[Scott Sommers]

i have to disagree, the modern "cool" is the righteous rebel, Neo, V (as in "for Vendetta") and others who seek to "bring down the system"

the truthers of course, and many others, are wholly ineffectual at this, but any generation has their posers, and the posers tend to be the loudest ones, the internet just gives them a bigger bullhorn

This is a good point and I don't disagree with you. My interest here is the imagery that they have adopted to handle this. Why on Earth would they want to appear as thought they are crazy - Liszt, is that a better word? why would anyone assume that the stigma of being labeled as crazy, and rebellious or criminial, would make one cool or interesting or worth listening to?

[Tricky]

A number of uncivil and off-topic threads have been infracted and/or split to AAH. Please address the issue, not each other.

[Thunder]

i think truthers just enjoy sticking it to "the man".

[Walter Ego]

Speaking as a layman not trained in psychology (note to Liszt: you are on ignore), I would not say the truthers are idolizing insanity at least not in the clinical sense of the word.

When most people use words like "insane," "nuts" or "crazy," they are not referencing mental illness per se but bizarre or outlandish beliefs or ideas or behavior that "sane" or intelligent people would not entertain.

The more "nutty" members of the TM like Jim Fetzer, Judy Woods, et al , are in fact marginalized by the TM at large.

A few truthers like Sean Fitzgerald (pictured below at his arrangement for murdering his father) have slipped into psychosis. The "paranoia" (again in the non-clinical sense of the word) associated with the TM probably didn't cause his psychosis but it didn't help either.

Listen to this telephone interview Fitzgerald gave to a fellow (and sympathetic) truther from his hospital bed where he was recovering from an accident "caused" (in his mind) by being chased by the police in Thailand.

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http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/2284549308e1699a5b.bmp (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14381)

[DGM]

i think truthers just enjoy sticking it to "the man".
By "the man" you mean anyone on the internet that looks for them and doesn't hold the same view. Outside of that, not so much.:o

[alexi_drago]

[quote]We did all kinds of rebelious things in this image. I have smoked dope and I inhaled. I never touch cigarettes and think smoking them is disgusting. But growing up on the West Coast, the image of drugs and cool was pretty strong[/quotee]

Perhaps it's all relative but I never thought of dope as being rebellious, more just as a safer and more pleasant alternative to alcohol.

[defaultdotxbe]

This is a good point and I don't disagree with you. My interest here is the imagery that they have adopted to handle this. Why on Earth would they want to appear as thought they are crazy - Liszt, is that a better word? why would anyone assume that the stigma of being labeled as crazy, and rebellious or criminial, would make one cool or interesting or worth listening to?
well imagine if ther was a scene in the Matrix where Neo goes around telling everyone they are batteries in some giant robot, he would come off as crazy but in the context of the movie hes right, truthers see themselves this way too, it sounds crazy but its true

also im sure many of them are simply oblivious to how nutty their theories sound to others, or like killtown seem to think the crazier the theory the better it supports their case, like his big faces in the smoke rant

[Thunder]

well imagine if ther was a scene in the Matrix where Neo goes around telling everyone they are batteries in some giant robot, he would come off as crazy but in the context of the movie hes right, truthers see themselves this way too, it sounds crazy but its true


and just as in the Matrix, everyone who is not unplugged, can be taken over by the agents and therefore must be treated like a possible evil Agent Smith.

[dudalb]

Let's put aside whether the truthers themselves are delusional/insane or not; it's enough to show that the Truther theories on 9/11 are ,by any defination that relies on facts and logic, batcrap crazy.

[Scott Sommers]

well imagine if ther was a scene in the Matrix where Neo goes around telling everyone they are batteries in some giant robot, he would come off as crazy but in the context of the movie hes right, truthers see themselves this way too, it sounds crazy but its true

also im sure many of them are simply oblivious to how nutty their theories sound to others, or like killtown seem to think the crazier the theory the better it supports their case, like his big faces in the smoke rant

So the idea being expressed is that the crazier the idea that's true, the better it is? I guess I can understand this. Is this because the insanity of the idea is being confused with complexity?

[Gaspode]

Please keep on topic whilst continuing to attack the argument, not the arguer.

[aggle-rithm]

So the idea being expressed is that the crazier the idea that's true, the better it is? I guess I can understand this. Is this because the insanity of the idea is being confused with complexity?

I remember listening to a co-worker as he described his daily vitamin regimen. At one point he said, "It tastes terrible...so you KNOW it's good for you!"

I think truthers use this same sort of logical fallacy when they embrace an idea. The wackier it sounds, the more likely they're REALLY on to something!

Up to a point. Beyond that you're clearly nuts and even truthers distance themselves from you.

[Scott Sommers]

I remember listening to a co-worker as he described his daily vitamin regimen. At one point he said, "It tastes terrible...so you KNOW it's good for you!"

I think truthers use this same sort of logical fallacy when they embrace an idea. The wackier it sounds, the more likely they're REALLY on to something!

Up to a point. Beyond that you're clearly nuts and even truthers distance themselves from you.

This is very interesting to me. It's clear that Judy Wood and the no-planers are stigmatized by other Truthers. Why is that? Why does Tony Z. for example seem to think that thermite is less crazy than ray guns in space? It's about as plausible, so why would why would ray guns in space be that "point" beyond which even the Truthers wouldn't go? What I mean is that this "point" is not based in a logic of science, so what defines it?

Is it just because Dr. Steve says so and he's got a real diploma? But Dr. Judy has one and she's gone "beyond that point".

It's been implied here that some Truthers can't tell how deluded their ideas sound to un-Truthers. I think what others, including you, have said is that they can tell some of their ideas sound crazy, but they interpret this as something good or interesting or profound. What I really want to know is why "The wackier it sounds, the more likely they're REALLY on to something." If they know it's whacky but believe it could be true, isn't that implying they're accepting the idea because they know it's whacky?

[aggle-rithm]

This is very interesting to me. It's clear that Judy Wood and the no-planers are stigmatized by other Truthers. Why is that? Why does Tony Z. for example seem to think that thermite is less crazy than ray guns in space? It's about as plausible, so why would why would ray guns in space be that "point" beyond which even the Truthers wouldn't go? What I mean is that this "point" is not based in a logic of science, so what defines it?

Is it just because Dr. Steve says so and he's got a real diploma? But Dr. Judy has one and she's gone "beyond that point".



I think it's graded on a curve...the more authority someone has in the REAL WORLD, the more likely their ideas are to be accepted. Relying on the word of an expert relieves truthers of the responsibility of making a sane argument. "Don't look at me," they say. "Dr. So-and-so says its true. Do YOU have a PhD? Didn't think so!"

In a like manner, they put off the responsibility for thinking their ideas all the way through to a mythical "independent panel" who will do a REAL investigation and come up with something they have been unable to conjure: A reasonable narrative that describes what they believe.

It's been implied here that some Truthers can't tell how deluded their ideas sound to un-Truthers. I think what others, including you, have said is that they can tell some of their ideas sound crazy, but they interpret this as something good or interesting or profound. What I really want to know is why you "The wackier it sounds, the more likely they're REALLY on to something." If they know it's whacky but believe it could be true, isn't that implying they're accepting the idea because they know it's whacky?

It's because they know it's not MAINSTREAM, and therefore could not have come from the hated Authorities.

[DGM]

. What I really want to know is why you "The wackier it sounds, the more likely they're REALLY on to something." If they know it's whacky but believe it could be true, isn't that implying they're accepting the idea because they know it's whacky?

I've had CT believers argue that this is the (evil doers) MO. They don't get caught because most people don't believe that it could be done in such a bizarre way and authorities refuse to look into it.

Brilliant I say.:jaw-dropp

[aggle-rithm]

I've had CT believers argue that this is the (evil doers) MO. They don't get caught because most people don't believe that it could be done in such a bizarre way and authorities refuse to look into it.

Brilliant I say.:jaw-dropp

Similar to the delusions of people with schizophrenia, whose faith in their delusions is strengthened by the fact that others become visibly uncomfortable when they talk about them.

[Alt+F4]

I just can't understand why a well-adjusted teenager from a loving home would idolize ideas that only the insane could genuinely take seriously.

Many teenagers have poorly developed critical thinking skills. They simply haven't lived long enough and haven't had enough life experiences to develop a bs meter. In addition, many think that the Internet is an extension of television and the news. You would be surprised how many of my students believed in the bonsai kitten hoax and every other bit of Internet nonsense out there.

[Scott Sommers]

It's because they know it's not MAINSTREAM, and therefore could not have come from the hated Authorities.

Thanks for the comments. They are very helpful. I like this point, particularly. Would you agree, in the same way that I might have found some kind of criminal behaviour 'cool' because it was out of the mainstream, Truthers might find an idea 'cool' or interesting because it is crazy? Since delinquent and criminal are now pretty jaded as things that would mark something as out of the mainstream, perhaps insane would be closer to what's left? But as you point out, there would be a limit to this that would most probably include acting as though you really believed this was true.

[aggle-rithm]

Thanks for the comments. They are very helpful. I like this point, particularly. Would you agree, in the same way that I might have found some kind of criminal behaviour 'cool' because it was out of the mainstream, Truthers might find an idea 'cool' or interesting because it is crazy? Since delinquent and criminal are now pretty jaded as things that would mark something as out of the mainstream, perhaps insane would be closer to what's left? But as you point out, there would be a limit to this that would most probably include acting as though you really believed this was true.

I get the feeling from a lot of truthers that they really, deep down, don't believe what they are defending. They just feel an obligation to tow the party line. It's like a Catholic defending Transubstantiation.

[newton3376]

Also, at 47, you are too old to be using the word "dude".

People often use or don't use various words or phrases depending on the environment/audience.

There are certain words/phrases that I do not (and likely never will) use at work/presentations/meetings/etc but will use in other situations.

It is quite common to use informal language/slang/etc on the internet so I fail to see the relevance of the "too old to be saying dude" comment.

I'm over 30 and work in a professional field, but I still say "dude".

[aggle-rithm]

People often use or don't use various words or phrases depending on the environment/audience.

There are certain words/phrases that I do not (and likely never will) use at work/presentations/meetings/etc but will use in other situations.

It is quite common to use informal language/slang/etc on the internet so I fail to see the relevance of the "too old to be saying dude" comment.

I'm over 30 and work in a professional field, but I still say "dude".

My wife calls me "dude" when she thinks I've done something really stupid.

"Dude! How long did you leave these clothes in the dryer?"

Also, "sweetheart" is code for "idiot". She uses that when my stupidity is at such a level that she sort of feels sorry for me.

[dropzone]

Also, at 47, you are too old to be using the word "dude".Whoa! Dude, that is perfectly cromulent Surfspeak, circa 1963. People who had never been within 1000 miles of surf picked it up back then and had no trouble understanding it when it came back around.

[Scott Sommers]

I get the feeling from a lot of truthers that they really, deep down, don't believe what they are defending. They just feel an obligation to tow the party line. It's like a Catholic defending Transubstantiation.

This is something I've been wondering about. I talk with members of We Are Change. They don't know who I am and most of the time, we talk about things completely unrelated to 911. In fact, 911 never ever comes up unless I bring it up. WAC is almost like a club that has no meaning to its members. I frankly don't believe at least some of the people in WAC really believe in thermite and controlled demolition, but that's the price they pay to belong to a network of friends who make them feel cool or interesting or something like that.

Anyway, thanks dude.

[Seymour Butz]

I think it's graded on a curve...the more authority someone has in the REAL WORLD, the more likely their ideas are to be accepted. Relying on the word of an expert relieves truthers of the responsibility of making a sane argument. "Don't look at me," they say. "Dr. So-and-so says its true. Do YOU have a PhD? Didn't think so!"



This is brilliant....

[dudalb]

Many teenagers have poorly developed critical thinking skills. They simply haven't lived long enough and haven't had enough life experiences to develop a bs meter. In addition, many think that the Internet is an extension of television and the news. You would be surprised how many of my students believed in the bonsai kitten hoax and every other bit of Internet nonsense out there.


And, frankly, it does not get much better among the college age students. In some ways it's even worse since the college students tend to have a "I Know Everything, Nobody Can Tell Me Anything" attitude. They might get the basics rules of Critical Thinking in some course along the way, but they have not learned how to apply them in a real world situation. Knowing a group of Axioms is one thing, knowing how to use them is another.

[dudalb]

I get the feeling from a lot of truthers that they really, deep down, don't believe what they are defending. They just feel an obligation to tow the party line. It's like a Catholic defending Transubstantiation.

Except the Catholics tend to make much more intelligent arguments.

[Dog Town]

Whoa! Dude, that is perfectly cromulent Surfspeak, circa 1963. People who had never been within 1000 miles of surf picked it up back then and had no trouble understanding it when it came back around.

There were people 100 years before the sixties using that word, who had no concept of the word surf, at least as we now know it. They knew how to ride though.:D

[Scott Sommers]

There were people 100 years before the sixties using that word, who had no concept of the word surf, at least as we now know it. They knew how to ride though.:D

The word 'dude' dates back to at least the 19th century
http://www.grateful-dudes.net/dude_meaning.htm

The word that started all this - 'delusion' - has it's origins in the 14th century
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=delusion
Althought we are fortunate enough to have our friend Liszt here to point out that no one knew what they were talking about until sometime after the 1950s when the American Psychiatric Association began publishing their Diagnostic and Statisical Manual of Mental Disorders.

[Orphia Nay]

Truthers really do seem to live by the canard, "It's just so crazy it might be true".

[HyJinX]

He abides...

http://api.ning.com/files/P3lfqcuBZB5qnV7DTgAeUN0n03YTe0QnzUpDYvknBUgrQXU2E-UZZmihqrFvUyZHO84A18rPnfQ5qJuveRiaFlC9Q0fzgAwp/bVp0LoTz0jjvwpxdO4mOLbSlo1_500.jpg

[Scott Sommers]

So recently I read all these Truther's Facebooks. On a lot of them, they have quotes or statements that if you heard someone speaking like that, you think they were...well...delusional. Like what? How's this?
"WERE LIVING IN A REAL DEAL RESIDENT EVIL BOARD, ALL EMPTY ZOMBIES ACTING JUST LIKE ONE ANOTHER, VERY FEW WHO CAN SEE WHAT ARE GOING ON AND CAN FIGHT IT , TO BAD THERES NO RESET BUTTON ON LIFE"

This is what I mean Truthers acting like they're looney. Why would anyone want to put something like this on their Facebook? Wouldn't they think it would make them look nuts?

And HyJinX, thanks bro, for the image.

[DavidJames]

So recently I read all these Truther's Facebooks. On a lot of them, they have quotes or statements that if you heard someone speaking like that, you think they were...well...delusional. Like what? How's this?
"WERE LIVING IN A REAL DEAL RESIDENT EVIL BOARD, ALL EMPTY ZOMBIES ACTING JUST LIKE ONE ANOTHER, VERY FEW WHO CAN SEE WHAT ARE GOING ON AND CAN FIGHT IT , TO BAD THERES NO RESET BUTTON ON LIFE"

This is what I mean Truthers acting like they're looney. Why would anyone want to put something like this on their Facebook? Lack of maturity.

[dropzone]

This is what I mean Truthers acting like they're looney. Why would anyone want to put something like this on their Facebook? Wouldn't they think it would make them look nuts?Must not be looking for a job.

[TheDaver]

Lack of maturity.
More like lack of brains. It’s one thing to be a crank and a @#$% on sites where you’re protected by pseudonymity. But to do it openly on Facebook? Wow, just wow. These days, potential employers check these things out, you know. Why do I have the feeling that some of these guys are also complaining about how They keep them from getting a job?

[Scott Sommers]

This point about jobs is interesting. In fact, the Truthers who do post their resumes and advertise for jobs have very weak employment records. I had always assumed it was the poor job history that drove them into fringe beliefs. It could be the other way around. After all, who would hire someone like this?

[dropzone]

Not me. Which is why my web presence under my real name, or one quickly discovered by an HR drone, is not controversial. Of course, it helps that my real name, as a proper noun and a verb, gives up pages of soap opera updates.

ETA: And my similarly-named cousins are more interesting. Am I the one who races yachts? Races classic sports cars in Blighty? Or the one who wrote a program for the Tandy Model 100?

[cornsail]

Much of the population is cynical and dissatisfied with the government, with the media and with large corporations. This is pretty clear to me from following public opinion polls. The media and government are just not particularly trusted. There are good reasons for this... The US gov has committed some pretty atrocious acts both at home and abroad. And the media has very often either turned a blind eye or put on a positive spin to the point of cheerleading.

Unfortunately the world is a complicated place. While people may be dissatisfied and untrusting, many don't really understand what's going on--they have some vague ideas about elites, that they tend to look out for their own interests, etc. But really understanding world affairs is too difficult. Enter 9/11 truth, enter the "birthers", enter the "evil nwo world government plot".

It's easy to see why these things attract people. Normal people will tell you their astrology profiles are surprisingly accurate. Throw together a bunch of "facts" (nevermind whether they're actually true) and you can convince some percentage of people of any kind of nonsense.

The stranger part is of the phenomena is the persistence in the face of contrary evidence. That's where confirmation bias comes in. All of us have confirmation biases and they're stronger than we probably give them credit for. With a particularly bad theory, though, I think some people are driven beyond a simple typical confirmation bias into the realm of... I don't know what. Cult mentality? Faith? In some cases (but probably not most) there will be diagnosable delusion/paranoia. In others (again, not most) I expect it's just a con for money, fame or followers.

In short, idolization of insanity has nothing to do with it, in my view.

[tfk]

I like TAM's encapsulation: "Angry Young Men". ("Boys", actually.)

Flailing about at authority, the world, their own impotence.

Typical teenage angst. Prolonged beyond all reasonable time limits.


Tom

[cornsail]

Now we just need a theory of religion.