Work for minimum wage

[Chad Noles]

If GWB's new plan is instituted(the immigration plan) why would any employer ever offer a job above minimum wage?I'm sure that someone,somewhere in the world would be willing to come to the USA just to get their foot in the door.http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.immigration/index.html
This plan seems more like an admition that the government can't or won't do the job it is currently required by law to do."Give up and win,is all you have to say"to quote Leon.I see nothing of any value in this program except to let current violators of the law off the hook.Claims that the US will be more secure with this program,border on insanity,IMHO.I see this as one of the most ludicrous ideas to have ever been put forth to the Congress.I think that a understanding Congress will shoot down this folly quickly before the American way of life is destroyed.

[Grammatron]

Why do employers ever offer jobs above minimum wage?

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
I think that a understanding Congress will shoot down this folly quickly before the American way of life is destroyed.

The American way of life being the way where everyone is guaranteed a job at the salary they want, I suppose.

[Chad Noles]

You suppose WRONG.However,your standard reply has been noted.

[WildCat]

Are you worried that someone will take your citrus picking job?

[metropolis_part_one]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Why do employers ever offer jobs above minimum wage?

Is that a joke?
Because if a company wants someone with a particular skill, they will pay more for that person in order to encourage that person to work for THEIR company rather than another.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by metropolis_part_one


Is that a joke?
Because if a company wants someone with a particular skill, they will pay more for that person in order to encourage that person to work for THEIR company rather than another.
I think that was his point.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by WildCat

I think that was his point.

Indeed it was.

Frankly I do not know what to think of Bush's proposal. However I also don't see any realistic solution to closing the borders and/or kicking all the illegals out.

[corplinx]

I think this is a red herring. Like most larger southern cities, most home construction, landscaping, etc type work in this area is done by illegal mexicans who make more than minimum wage. Even they won't work for that little.

In other words, employers have to pay what the work force demands as a minimum. If someone was paying minimum wage for that type of labor, you could find easier labor at the same price for that amount of money.


Are we really worried about Mexican guest workers taking all best positions at McDonalds?

[schplurg]

Are you worried that someone will take your citrus picking job?

Bush said (not verbatim, but close) "These illegals are willing to work jobs that American citizens are not".

Gee, I wonder why! Could it be because the farmers are taking advantage of a situation and getting away with paying a low wage, no workmans comp insurance, or any other? Of course no American will work under these conditions (and I'd guess that these farmers would rather not hire Americans for the same reason)! However, if we didn't have millions of illegals (in California alone) these guys would be forced to pay a decent wage and provide for their employees. I'd bet that the fruit would get picked by someone...surely the farmers wouldn't let it just rot in the fields!

Oh but the price of fruit will go up you say? Well so what! It's "artificially" low because of the illegal labor. The farmers are the ones benefiting the most from all of this, not the Mexicans, and not the U.S. citizens.

The people who back this kind of legislation make it sound like picking fruit and working the fields is the toughest job around. There are plenty of more physically demanding jobs out there that 'red-blooded' Americans are happy to take. The "No one else is willing to pick our fruit" arguement is a load of crap, especially now with the economy the way it is.

Funny how these proposals always creep up around election time isn't it? Like Gray Davis and his "let's give the illegals drivers licenses" plan. Gimme a break.

They're called "illegal aliens" for a reason. Why are so many people willing to compromise our immigration laws?

And what about McDonalds? The McDonalds' in my area pay around $9.00 per hour to start. College students could do okay with that money...but no, let's let the illegals take those jobs too. Some people seem to think that these jobs are "beneath them". Why? I knew a guy (citizen) that cleaned sewers for a living. Now THAT's a dirty, crummy job. But it paid decent. Yes firends, Americans will pick that fruit and flip them burgers if those are the only people available to do the job.

So tell me again, why is it okay, and a good idea, to allow illegals to work in our country, and to allow company owners to hire them?

[Chad Noles]

Corplinx wrote:Like most larger southern cities, most home construction, landscaping, etc type work in this area is done by illegal mexicans who make more than minimum wage. Even they won't work for that little.

Who did these illegal workers replace?People who were employed by construction companies seeking to build a future for themselves.When hoping to increase their wages after some time of service,it appears that many were layed-off in favor of these lower wage replacements.The construction companies actually benefit from lower wage workers with little or no seniority.The effect is to keep these jobs at low wages and to merely replace anyone who seeks an increase in pay.So how does this lead to an oppertunity to better oneself?I don't see that it does,or can.It seems to keep lower paying jobs cheap for the benefit of the companies who contract these jobs,but not the work force.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
Who did these illegal workers replace?

Who says they replaced anyone?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
Corplinx wrote:

Who did these illegal workers replace?

Noone.

I used to resent the influx of illegal labor until a guy who was building an apartment complex told me a dirty secret. I was younger and more foolish and tried to guilt-trip him about using the mexican illegals. He said "if I dont hire them, I can't get it done, If I hire blacks or whites (whom this city had about 51/47 percent of) they no-show, don't work when they are there, and quit soon". Basically the mexican workers actually worked.

American's dirty secret is that home construction (painting, flooring, framing, roofing, landscaping) in some parts of the country is only viable because of illegal immigrant labor.

Repeat after me: illegals are taking jobs that we have stigmatized as not being good enough for the average american

[Whoracle]

Originally posted by WildCat
Are you worried that someone will take your citrus picking job?


And who does these jobs in states with very few illegal immigrants? Or are there just not any "undesirable" jobs in Iowa?

[The Don]

Originally posted by corplinx


Noone.



Noone's been replaced ?

Dang, I'm sure I saw him on the office last Thursday. That's really gong to be a blow for Mrs Noone and the kids.

He musta been here what ? twenty years ? and at his age finding a new job won't be easy

[Ed]

Originally posted by corplinx


Repeat after me: illegals are taking jobs that we have stigmatized as not being good enough for the average american

Which they take, presumably, because they ARE illegal and potential employers in those distasteful areas have them by the nuts. Right?

Suppose they are not "illegal" anymore? Why would they take those jobs?

And if there is a segment of really sh!tty jobs worthy only of Mexicans, can we not expect some sort of civil rights action?

I see Bush folding his tent on a serious issue. In effect he has reduced the problem by declaring an illegal act legal.

[Chad Noles]

Who did these workers replace? No one.

Well then,you must have not been there the day an entire crew of workers were terminated overnight by a certain construction company and everyman was replaced by an unskilled drywaller who could not speak english.Unlike you,I have seen it with my own eyes.These were above minimum wage jobs that were lost.The company merely threw its crew out and replace them with new lower paying wage earners.Not every job we are talking about are the so called jobs no one wants.That is part of the problem.These blanket statements like the ones GWB makes don't hold true in the real world.
Perhaps if your job is replaced by a lower paid worker some day you will understand the reality of this ridiculous policy.Perhaps your position will be outsourced to a foreign country to save money.Then you may realize what is happening to the stability of this country.However,you may be at the top of the "food chain" were nothing but the money matters.

[Skeptical Greg]

Hmmm.. Construction and landscaping......


I wonder what drives the need for such jobs? There may be more here than meets the eye...

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by corplinx
Repeat after me: illegals are taking jobs that we have stigmatized as not being good enough for the average american Construction is stigmatized? Here in Minnesota, construction is done primarily by trade union members. These jobs pay well enough that most constructions workers can afford to buy a house, take vacations, buy a boat or a cabin, send their kids to college, etc. They live the American Dream. (Many do, that is. There are plenty of alcoholic screw-ups in the trades as well.)

In Houston, I used to cringe when I saw some of the workmanship going into new buildings being built by unskilled day-labor. They know how to cover up some pretty shoddy work with a little plaster and paint, but I would be very hesitant to buy new construction in the South.

I don't know what impact these measures will bring. I don't think they'll encourage illegal immigration, as there isn't any reason to think that everyone who can isn't already trying to get here. I doubt there are many people sitting around waiting for something to make sneaking into the US a little more attractive.

Still, it seems very likely that the reason some of these jobs pay so little is that the competition from people willing to work at or below minimum drives down the wage. Employers love that, of course. I don't know what the overall impact on the average American is, though. Lower wages at the bottom, probably, but a stronger economy as well, perhaps. I don't know enough about this proposal to decide how I feel about it.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
You suppose WRONG.However,your standard reply has been noted.

Well, my "standard reply" is usually to make some dumb risque pun, but you didn't really elaborate on what particular aspect of the American way of life you felt would be destroyed. Since the rest of the rant was about declining wages, I reasonably assumed that "declining wages" = "American way of life destroyed" in your argument.

While you may have had some highly specific aspect in mind with "American way of life", I live in a world where alarmists and demagogues too lazy to come up with a real analysis of the situation will simply speak of "destruction of the American way of life." Kinda like "family values", it is a term that is at once widely accepted as a good thing, and so completely vague that it could mean anything. My apologies for misinterpreting your use of the phrase in this way.

With no further clues as to what is meant by "the American way of life", I can only guess that it refers to that idyll where all men work hard, and come home to their beautiful wife and humble house, eat beef and potatoes and read the bible in English with their respectful and obedient children. In other words, a way of life that never existed.

[Snide]

Originally posted by phildonnia
With no further clues as to what is meant by "the American way of life", I can only guess that it refers to that idyll where all men work hard, and come home to their beautiful wife and humble house, eat beef and potatoes and read the bible in English with their respectful and obedient children. In other words, a way of life that never existed. Sure it did.

You never watched "Leave It To Beaver?"

[shanek]

Originally posted by corplinx
Noone.

I used to resent the influx of illegal labor until a guy who was building an apartment complex told me a dirty secret. I was younger and more foolish and tried to guilt-trip him about using the mexican illegals. He said "if I dont hire them, I can't get it done, If I hire blacks or whites (whom this city had about 51/47 percent of) they no-show, don't work when they are there, and quit soon". Basically the mexican workers actually worked.

American's dirty secret is that home construction (painting, flooring, framing, roofing, landscaping) in some parts of the country is only viable because of illegal immigrant labor.

Repeat after me: illegals are taking jobs that we have stigmatized as not being good enough for the average american

Not only that, but the illegals are not only a work force, they are consumers as well; they demand consumer goods and so raise the level of total production in the economy.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Snide
Sure it did.

You never watched "Leave It To Beaver?"

I take it that's a sarcastic remark...but I have actually heard people seriously point to LItB as an example of how different things were then. The thing is, when LItB was first on the air it was panned for being unrealistic and not indicative of normal families...

[Snide]

Originally posted by shanek


I take it that's a sarcastic remark...but I have actually heard people seriously point to LItB as an example of how different things were then. The thing is, when LItB was first on the air it was panned for being unrealistic and not indicative of normal families... Sarcasm indeed...I shoulda used a smiley. :)

I've seen the same, from Father Knows Best to Brady Bunch, and I'm sure there is a plehtora of other examples available out there.

[Chad Noles]

originally posted by phildonnia

With no further clues as to what is meant by "the American way of life", I can only guess that it refers to that idyll where all men work hard, and come home to their beautiful wife and humble house, eat beef and potatoes and read the bible in English with their respectful and obedient children. In other words, a way of life that never existed.

With no clues,why guess at all?Your speculation is entirely your own invention.

orginally posted by ShaneK

Not only that, but the illegals are not only a work force, they are consumers as well; they demand consumer goods and so raise the level of total production in the economy.

This is only looking at one side of the ledger.What about the added cost to the economy from displaced workers on unemployment?
I don't believe that an economy currently engaged in deficit spending needs to increase that spending due to unnecessary unemployment.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
This is only looking at one side of the ledger.What about the added cost to the economy from displaced workers on unemployment?

Again, what workers on unemployment? Again, these immigrants are spending in the economy as well, and that spending and demand would not be there if not for them; that simply creates more jobs.

I have not seen any evidence that immigration increases the long run natural level of unemployment.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
With no clues,why guess at all?Your speculation is entirely your own invention.


Ok, then I'm still waiting for you to explain what the American way of life is, and what facet of it is being destroyed.

[Solitaire]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Why do employers ever offer jobs above minimum wage?
I don't know. There was a professor from some college down
in Atlanta on the other day said that their grads mad $64,000
a year. What! That's outragous. I can get just as good engineer
from India for $8000 a year with some experience. Why the hell
would I pay more for an American? The Ivory Tower Mentality...