Finally saw Sylvia Browne in person!

[Calculon]

In November 2008, Sylvia Browne was to appear at the Orpheum Theatre in downtown Los Angeles. Interested people from the IIG (Independent Investigations Group) and CFI West (Center for Inquiry West) were planning to be outside and pass out fliers mentioning Sylvia Browne's poor past performance, information on how cold reading works, etc... Just to prime the audience to perhaps be a bit more skeptical.

But she canceled.

So a few months back, I planned to get a few cheap ($10) tickets for an appearance of Sylvia Browne at the Gibson Amphitheatre at Universal Studios that was to take place Oct 3, 2009.

But she canceled.

But it was re-scheduled for December 29, 2009. So I went ahead and got a few. October would have been more convenient for us, so thanks for nothing, Sylvia. Mark Edward heard about the visit and wanted to attend as well.
Now why did I buy tickets rather than do the fliering, you might ask? Well, the Gibson Amphitheatre and Universal Studios is private property with lots of security just itching to kick out people fliering or protesting or doing anything but buying stuff. And public sidewalks are too far away for any use.

We didn't have any specific plans. We were mainly going to see how she conducts her shows for future knowledge. She is supposed to be on her final world tour, but we have heard that before. And her well-trained grifter son Christopher was present...so we could see him as well! Bonus.

We went through the main entrance towards the theatre and were handed little red raffle tickets. I inquired about them and was told that Sylvia will call out a few numbers at the end and people called could ask her a question. Now I assumed that specific people would be called regardless, but surprisingly...one of our tickets was called at the end. (When we all got inside and met up with Mark who arrived earlier to check out the space, I suggested we give our tickets to Mark, as he wanted to ask her a question)

Now, our seats were the very back row, but the theatre had more empty seats than occupied seats, and that was not including that much of the theatre was blocked-off by curtains. So we located ourselves closer to the action. We still had almost all empty seats behind us and in front. But right after Christopher Dufresne escorted mom to the stage, he and his female friend sat about 10 feet in front of us. This awesome psychic couldn't feel the skeptics sitting right behind him.
http://i48.tinypic.com/2nkphls.jpg


Mark , I and another person dropped info off in several bathrooms so I hope some were seen during intermission. Also during intermission, Christopher answered questions from people who formed a winding line in the upper section of the theatre. (He did the same after the show when Sylvia was busy signing her book).

After Montel talked about himself, trying to impress us, thus showing if he trusts Sylvia, we should as well...then Sylvia imparting sage advice like consuming less sugar in one's diet, we got down to the readings.

Most were pablum like people asking the name of their spirit guides, how departed loved ones are doing...things that can never be tested. And others were things that would not come to pass for a few months or years (like love life queries and children in the future). I have to go through my full video to pick out the best bits, but here is a short video I made when Mark went down at the end to ask his question. None of us knew what he was going to do, so we couldn't wait either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BradlE-Uloc

The names Mark mentioned corresponded to names mentioned on fliers he left in bathrooms and in the theatre before the show started. So the hope is that a few people with the combo of the seeing the flier and seeing the collapse would be curious enough to look them up.

We are not deluded to think that her true followers would be swayed by any facts presented by us...we are very aware of cognitive dissonance. But for a very quickly planned event during the holidays, it went pretty well...and we learned much for next time.

I will add more when I have a chance to go through my video more.

Mark posted about it here as well. (http://skepticblog.org/2010/01/02/sylvia-shakedown-pt-1/#more-5799)

[wardenclyffe]

Hmmmm, Dufresne looks drunk.

Ward

[ExMinister]

What was most disturbing to me was that she didn't immediately recognize the name Opal Jo Jennings. :confused:

Either 1) she's partly deaf, or 2) she doesn't read the articles on Robert Lancaster's site and lets her staff do that for her. This isn't even the first time it's happened (that she didn't recognize a name like this - maybe even the same name, I'd have to go find that article) as Jon Ronson wrote about something similar happening in an interview he did with her on a cruise.

She evidently would need to be confronted with these cases on a name-by-name basis as she has apparently taken no interest in finding things out for herself.

Next, though, did anyone else think that the way Montel Williams behaved with her is kind of like the way you'd behave with a favorite but slightly batty old aunt who was going senile?? He seemed to be there to jump in whenever she got mixed up or came off sounding too rude or started off down the wrong track, things she never used to do and wouldn't have needed any help with. Maybe her mind is going, who knows.

At any rate, I'm betting it was Montel who recognized those names after a beat or two and decided not to allow your friend to disrupt the show.

[Denver]

I didn't much care for Mark's approach to debunking. Faking an illness would seem to just give believers more reason not to trust, and so more reason not to listen to, a skeptic with an opposing viewpoint.

[ExMinister]

I didn't much care for Mark's approach to debunking. Faking an illness would seem to just give believers more reason not to trust, and so more reason not to listen to, a skeptic with an opposing viewpoint.

I agree. Also, believers will only say that she was psychic enough to know he was faking the illness and too smart to be tricked into a reaction.

[desertgal]

I agree. Also, believers will only say that she was psychic enough to know he was faking the illness and too smart to be tricked into a reaction.

I also agree, although I commend Mark for his effort. :)

[Calculon]

It is hard to say what a good approach would be. I think Mark had also considered a more direct route that would have had him ejected, but you never know what you are going to do until the time comes. We had to plan this at the last minute as the holidays altered who could even attend. You want to attract the crowd's attention for sure. We learned a few things that would help in the future, though.

I am not convinced that Sylvia didn't recognize the names. When Mark collapsed, she gave no reaction, although Montel showed (or feigned) concern. From inside, it appeared to me she did not want to acknowledge Mark at all, and just to continue on. I think if she really believed a person collapsed while speaking to her, she would acknowledge it. I think she should have anyway, so as not to look odd in front of the audience, but she just plowed on through the next question.

[Brattus]

Wow! I would have to say a stop Montel site is in order.
He is just as bad as she is. He knows she is a fraud and a con and he is helping her.
Things people do for money amazes me.
All those fools lined up like that.
Asking if they'll get the job they want or meet someone.
How do they think their dead loved one is doing?
They can't just cherish the memory of them, they have to know how the whole rotting in the ground thing is going.
Those kind of people really get under my skin.
If they want that job then do what it takes to get it.
If they want to meet someone then go out to where the kind of people they want to meet are.
I'm guessing that wouldn't be a Sylvia/Montel show.

Anyways Montel needs his ass kicked in my opinion.

[LibraryLady]

I didn't much care for Mark's approach to debunking. Faking an illness would seem to just give believers more reason not to trust, and so more reason not to listen to, a skeptic with an opposing viewpoint.

Also, if the EMTs were called for a feigned illness, that could actually be a crime. It's a false alarm.

[wardenclyffe]

I think Universal has EMTs on staff, so unless they were called from a municipal authority, it probably shouldn't matter.

Ward

[LibraryLady]

Good, that makes me feel better. But I still disagree with the fainting act. I think the questions were sufficient to make the point.

[bookitty]

The people applauding when she weasels, yikes! Almost as scary as Sylvia Browne's lack of reaction to a man fainting. (Beautiful crumple, btw.)

The faint was a bit over the top but I like Mark's "Histrionics? I'll show you histrionics!" approach. It could have been a grand show someplace where Sylvia couldn't cut it short. Two actors going head-to-head in an epic farce-off.

[Calculon]

Also, if the EMTs were called for a feigned illness, that could actually be a crime. It's a false alarm.

They were from the theatre itself....not from an outside source.

I don't know if Mark posts here...but he could go further into it. The person who came knew what happened and did not leave angry.

[fuelair]

Did she look like a rectum with glasses or was she different when not on telly?

[Riayn]

Not reacting when someone faints in front of you really shows what kind of person Sylvia is. Gee, you think she would fake a little humanity for the sake of her fans.
At least Montel had the good grace to ask if Mark was okay.

[Susan Gerbic]

There is so much more to this story than here on the forum. Mark will be interviewed tonight by Bryan and Baxter on Warning: Radio 6pm (pacific time) you can "chat" live and get questions answered by Mark. He will tell the whole story tonight.

Susan

[Susan Gerbic]

Either 1) she's partly deaf, or 2) she doesn't read the articles on Robert Lancaster's site and lets her staff do that for her. This isn't even the first time it's happened (that she didn't recognize a name like this - maybe even the same name, I'd have to go find that article) as Jon Ronson wrote about something similar happening in an interview he did with her on a cruise.

She evidently would need to be confronted with these cases on a name-by-name basis as she has apparently taken no interest in finding things out for herself.

Next, though, did anyone else think that the way Montel Williams behaved with her is kind of like the way you'd behave with a favorite but slightly batty old aunt who was going senile?? He seemed to be there to jump in whenever she got mixed up or came off sounding too rude or started off down the wrong track, things she never used to do and wouldn't have needed any help with. Maybe her mind is going, who knows.

At any rate, I'm betting it was Montel who recognized those names after a beat or two and decided not to allow your friend to disrupt the show.

Nothing wrong with her hearing. She heard every person ask a question and had a quick response. In fact several times she did not even let the person finish the question...."Sylvia, I was wondering..." Sylvia cuts the person off and says, "not this year but the next one" and on and on.

Sylvia knew very clearly what was going on by the second name that comes up. She just could not think quickly enough. She says that he is hearing voices and that the names are just "spirit guides". What a nightmare for her, she was totally taken off guard by Mark, she did not know how to get out of it. What she should have done was say, "you sir are a fraud, sit down" or something like that, but she didn't. What she did do and was more interesting is she did not "out" Mark as a skeptic and a fraud. Minutes before she could "clearly see" your spirit guides name and what your dead brother was doing right now ect... but she COULD NOT see Mark as a fraud! I'm totally shocked that no one has noticed this. What better proof do we need to show her for what she is?

Montel is her enabler. He clearly would stop her and give her time to think about what she was saying. He would try to clear up some of the questions and straighten her out. Too bad the man has no honor. He is not just selling junk on late night TV. So don't tell me that we can't get these frauds off TV, the skeptic community CAN make a difference.

Susan

[Susan Gerbic]

I didn't much care for Mark's approach to debunking. Faking an illness would seem to just give believers more reason not to trust, and so more reason not to listen to, a skeptic with an opposing viewpoint.

Mark didn't do the "fake illness" for the audience. He wasn't out to punk the audience. He was trying to get to Sylvia herself. I'm sure he did. She is notorious for her fits after being confronted with an opposing viewpoint. I bet she ranted and raved for days after this encounter.

What is better is that she knows that the skeptic community has taken it up a notch. She will not know if that sweet little lady in front of her at her book signing, or at the microphone is going to punk her. There may be hidden cameras and news crews with their cameras at the ready whenever she goes out to do a public performance. She has canceled her shows in the past whenever she thinks that a skeptic might disrupt.

Much more is planned for Sylvia and her ilk. She knows she is vulnerable. They will have to change the format of questions to either only trusted people can ask questions. OR they will have to submit the question on paper or to someone else to allow Sylvia to answer. How lame will that be, her adoring fans won't like that one bit. They will have to continue to restrict access to her fans until she will have to just retire completely.

It is just a matter of time before some news agency again "outs her" Anderson Cooper was amazing, but he moved on to other stories. Still the eye will come back to her, and with people like Mark Edward waiting to pounce on her, they will continue to get her.

Oh back to my original comment.

Mark could not just stand there forever faking the "psychic crap" he had to get out of there somehow, and he did not want to be "handled" by her bodyguards. By passing out he was able to make a big impact on the audience that something special just happened. AND he was taken away by people who ran the theater and not Sylvia's people. (that story you will be amazed with tonight on Warning: Radio).

What did you think would happen? Mark would be standing at the mike and then politely just go back to his chair? They might have had to haul him kicking and screaming away to the boos and jeers of the audience. Did you notice the one person who asked a skeptical question (not very well asked BTW) was booed. He didn't do anything to influence the audience.

Mark was NOT debunking! He was letting Sylvia and Montel know that skeptics can get close. Mark was also showing us the skeptic community how easy it is to punk these monsters. You just have to have some nerve and stand up to them.

[Denver]

Mark didn't do the "fake illness" for the audience. He wasn't out to punk the audience...

...By passing out he was able to make a big impact on the audience that something special just happened.

Whether or not he intended to send a message to the audience (and the comments above make that unclear at best), there WAS an audience, and they did see some guy passing out. If they don't know he was a skeptic, they are not going to care about Sylvia's reaction: the passing-out will over-shadow anything else in that event. If they do find out he was a skeptic and this was all just pretend, he will not be seen as having revealed anything about Sylvia: only about skeptics and their tactics. Which in this case, was deceit.

Skeptics should not be about deceit. Deceit is something they fight.


What did you think would happen? Mark would be standing at the mike and then politely just go back to his chair?


Why not? Come up with the best 'gotcha' questions you can. When accomplished, sit down. Show the audience you can argue by intelligence, by reason, and by the truth. Show that skeptics are different, and better, then the likes of Sylvia. Don't give them reason to dismiss what could be truly educational for them.

They might have had to haul him kicking and screaming away to the boos and jeers of the audience. Did you notice the one person who asked a skeptical question (not very well asked BTW) was booed. He didn't do anything to influence the audience.

It is not clear that he had no positive effect on someone in the audience, or even on Montel, for that matter. Maybe not. But at least he didn't deceive anyone.


Mark was NOT debunking! He was letting Sylvia and Montel know that skeptics can get close. Mark was also showing us the skeptic community how easy it is to punk these monsters. You just have to have some nerve and stand up to them.

He could have done the same thing without the play-acting. And by playing his game with Sylvia, he missed a good opportunity to educate the audience. The guy who got booed, in my opinion, was the only real one with the nerve to stand up to her, and cast the light on who SHE is and what SHE can do to deceive people, and not the other way around.

[Calculon]

What she did do and was more interesting is she did not "out" Mark as a skeptic and a fraud. Minutes before she could "clearly see" your spirit guides name and what your dead brother was doing right now ect... but she COULD NOT see Mark as a fraud! I'm totally shocked that no one has noticed this. What better proof do we need to show her for what she is?



For those of us inside, we saw this. I don't have it on tape, but more people than numbers called showed up to ask their questions. Montel noticed this and Sylvia said she would "know" if the questioner should not have been in line. (and at this point, us other skeptics assumed Mark was one of those people without a proper ticket) but she answered all people in line and didn't out Mark or one of those cheaters.




Whether or not he intended to send a message to the audience (and the comments above make that unclear at best), there WAS an audience, and they did see some guy passing out. If they don't know he was a skeptic, they are not going to care about Sylvia's reaction: the passing-out will over-shadow anything else in that event. If they do find out he was a skeptic and this was all just pretend, he will not be seen as having revealed anything about Sylvia: only about skeptics and their tactics. Which in this case, was deceit.

Skeptics should not be about deceit. Deceit is something they fight.



I think that there are many methods to out frauds like Sylvia Browne. For myself, I would have fliered with info on her and how to spot a cold reader, etc if it were feasible, but the venue made that totally ineffective. But I would have no problem if Mark did his own thing inside at the same time. Rattling Sylvia is always a good goal. And this particular stunt did NOT confuse the audience and make them distrust skeptics. After the event when Mark was free and we were departing, a few times audience members asked him how he was. He did not give them any idea it was fake and thanked them for their concern. But, I can see faking being a devotee of Sylvia, getting her to say things that are obviously crap and then doing a "gotcha" on her. Pretending at the beginning gets her to open up, and sets the stage that hopefully some audience members will wonder why was she fooled by the faker.

This show below was deceit too. But I think it was very effective and got media attention outside of it's original airing:

BBC 3 Bullsh!t detectors exposes three mediums (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qGfNViVN8)

The show made a fake website, a fake story and used fake props. I thought it was brilliant, and needs to be done more ;)

[Denver]

...
This show below was deceit too. But I think it was very effective and got media attention outside of it's original airing:

BBC 3 Bullsh!t detectors exposes three mediums (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qGfNViVN8)

The show made a fake website, a fake story and used fake props. I thought it was brilliant, and needs to be done more ;)

That one is a very good video. But the tactics in that video are quite different. Fake information was created, but it was passively displayed, and it was completely up to the medium as to whether they searched for it and incorporated it into their act. It was a way to track the source of the information presented by the medium. As far as I could tell, the mediums weren't told any outright lies: any false information that the mediums obtained was due to their own attempts at deceit. If the medium had been honest in their contacts of the spirit world, none of that false information would have entered the session at all. The mediums were the ones being deceitful. The moderator just presented them the choice.

In Mark's video, Mark was stating things he knew to be false. And he faked a health problem, in such a dramatic way that the audience and other officials had to come to his aid.

This British video you attached shows how this can be done without all the drama, but with cleverness, and tact, and leaving the choice of deceit up to the medium. This is why it got media attention, and why it was so effective. I don't see Mark's performance being able to make any of those claims.

[Calculon]

As far as I could tell, the mediums weren't told any outright lies: any false information that the mediums obtained was due to their own attempts at deceit. If the medium had been honest in their contacts of the spirit world, none of that false information would have entered the session at all. The mediums were the ones being deceitful. The moderator just presented them the choice.

In Mark's video, Mark was stating things he knew to be false. And he faked a health problem, in such a dramatic way that the audience and other officials had to come to his aid.

This British video you attached shows how this can be done without all the drama, but with cleverness, and tact, and leaving the choice of deceit up to the medium. This is why it got media attention, and why it was so effective. I don't see Mark's performance being able to make any of those claims.


Well, the British video got all the attention because it was produced by the BBC as well as it's subject. It was professionally produced and had financing. And they did put up a fake portrait with a fake name.
Yes it was more subtle. This plan would not work for someone like Sylvia. She makes a good living at what she does, and would only attend an event like getting readings at the chocolate factory if a well known media outlet was involved. She wants exposure. I can't supply a TV network, so I do what I can.


And different skeptics have different goals. I would very much like that at every event Sylvia holds, she gets a little paranoid about the questioners. Maybe she will be knocked off her game, or act even ruder to her followers. Her biggest fans will brush it off, but little doubt seeds may be planted.

If you lie to a fraud, and never reveal it, then you are a liar.

If you lie to a fraud and show the world they are a fraud, you do the world a service.

[Susan Gerbic]

I don't know if Mark posts here...but he could go further into it. The person who came knew what happened and did not leave angry.

Mark was interviewed by Bryan and Baxter at Warning:Radio tonight. He explained so much of what he was thinking and what happened behind the scenes. You can go to Warning:Radio's site and listen to the archive.

[Susan Gerbic]

He could have done the same thing without the play-acting. And by playing his game with Sylvia, he missed a good opportunity to educate the audience. The guy who got booed, in my opinion, was the only real one with the nerve to stand up to her, and cast the light on who SHE is and what SHE can do to deceive people, and not the other way around.

Your right Denver, there are other ways to "punk" monsters like this. I'm sure you will come up with something clever the next time you "do something".

[Susan Gerbic]

For those of us inside, we saw this. I don't have it on tape, but more people than numbers called showed up to ask their questions. Montel noticed this and Sylvia said she would "know" if the questioner should not have been in line. (and at this point, us other skeptics assumed Mark was one of those people without a proper ticket) but she answered all people in line and didn't out Mark or one of those cheaters.

Mark did have a proper ticket. But he did get them from the other people that attended. Mark would have gotten in line if his number had not been called. Even with a ticket she should have seen Mark was a fraud also. But she didn't see it coming till it was too late.

[Denver]

Well, the British video got all the attention because it was produced by the BBC as well as it's subject. It was professionally produced and had financing. And they did put up a fake portrait with a fake name.
Yes it was more subtle. This plan would not work for someone like Sylvia. She makes a good living at what she does, and would only attend an event like getting readings at the chocolate factory if a well known media outlet was involved. She wants exposure. I can't supply a TV network, so I do what I can...

I enjoy many of the media efforts to expose fraud: we have troubleshooter shows where I live on the radio, tv, and the web. They collect evidence and claims, build a case, and confront the perpetrators. They don't lie in their process, and they get good exposure, because the media likes this kind of thing. Mark has indicated he is sending this to many media outlets. So we'll be able to judge just how effective they think his performance really was. I'm betting he gets little if any exposure from the effort. Not because I don't applaud those who take a stand against charlatans. But because I (and I suspect the media outlets also) do not support his tactics.

If you lie to a fraud, and never reveal it, then you are a liar.

If you lie to a fraud and show the world they are a fraud, you do the world a service.

If you lie to a fraud, you are a liar. The ends does not justify the means. The world needs more critical thinking. Not more lying.

Mark was interviewed by Bryan and Baxter at Warning:Radio tonight. He explained so much of what he was thinking and what happened behind the scenes. You can go to Warning:Radio's site and listen to the archive.

I listened. Mark seems like a good guy. I'm not saying his heart is not in the right place. I am saying this particular video and skeptical strategy is not the high ground, and skeptics can and should do better than trying to combat deceit with more deceit.


Your right Denver, there are other ways to "punk" monsters like this. I'm sure you will come up with something clever the next time you "do something".

I am not sure what my "doing something" has to do with my comments about the video posted. Maybe you could explain that more?

[Calculon]

If you lie to a fraud, you are a liar. The ends does not justify the means. The world needs more critical thinking. Not more lying.


The BBC crew made a fake website and backstory...that is lying, just done in a very subtle manner. If you have a fraud in front of you, and you are upfront with them, they will "shut down" and not give you anything of value. If you gain their confidence for just a little bit, they may provide enough rope to hang themselves. Whom do you speak to more freely...someone you trust or someone who you know is out to get you?

That is what I am getting at.

[Francine]

Dear Calculon & Mark,

So good to see you and your spirit guides (Cassandra and Alexis) at the lecture! I have been collaborating with them for so long via party line but it's nice to finally meet them in person. For the record, I'm new to using the computer so I'm trying to understand how to post in this forum. We haven't had many computer labs on The Other Side since Raheim got busted for internet porn and ruined it for the rest of us. Turns out that "getting in touch with your spirit guide" had a whole different meaning for that rascal Raheim.

How much fun did we have when Mark got up to ask his question? :D We (the guides) couldn't stop laughing at Sylvia's reaction when he started mentioning the names of all the poor souls who have passed over. Cassandra (or Cassie as I have come to know her) blew Sprite out of her nose!! Sylvia had tried contacting me by mental telepathy to get her out of that mess, but I pretended like I didn't hear her. I've gotten good at that. Later when she got mad at me and verbally attacked me, I told her that I went out for popcorn and a smoke. She finally calmed down after I presented her with a doggy bag that I thoughtfully brought back for her. But did I get so much as a thank you? Hell no!

I don't want it to seem like we were laughing about Sylvia desecrating the life and death of those individuals, or victimizing their families. We just couldn't get over how immediately angry she got, and how she continued to be indignant and insist that she was right. I hate it when she does that, and it has gotten worse and worse over the years. To be honest, I've been trying to quit this crummy job for about 70 years but the Big Boss has it out for me. What sort of karmic retribution could I possibly have done to deserve this? I didn't do anything. I swear. <insert angel emoticon here>

Ok, ONE TIME I put a whoopie cushion in his office chair (as comic relief during the Great Depression) and look at the assignment he gave me! It was a simple gag, and the joke turned out to be on me because now I wake up every morning damning my life all to hell. Oh, and I drew a mustache and beard on his face with a Sharpie once when he passed out from drinking one too many White Russians. So sue me! That will teach me to punk the guy upstairs. :mad:

Anyway, I was just writing to say hello in case Cassie and Alexis didn't give you my message. I have had about enough of Sylvia speaking for me and I just wanted to join the forum and share the truth about her. She constantly mis-reports everything I say and do so it's time that I have a voice of my own.

Until my next post.

Francine

P.S. Hello to everyone else here too. I think we'll become very good friends.

[Ravynn123]

:seroflmao: Welcome Francine....

[Calculon]

Dear Calculon & Mark,

So good to see you and your spirit guides (Cassandra and Alexis) at the lecture! I have been collaborating with them for so long via party line but it's nice to finally meet them in person.


OMG OMG OMG!
Which one is mine? Cassie?

I didn't have a chance to ask Sylvia myself that night.

Which tequila does my spirit guide prefer? I am off to BevMo in a few minutes.

[Francine]

Dear Calculon,

Your guide is Alexis, silly. Funny you should mention tequila because she was knocking back celebratory Patron that night. I didn't want to say anything to put a damper on the evening. She was having a good time, bless her heart, and she wasn't responsible for driving you home.

As a matter of fact, The Other Side isn't much different than Earth. We all enjoy some good spirits from time to time.

How do you think we got our name, "spirit guide"? I personally prefer rum to tequila, but to each his own.

Until my next post.

Francine

[Ravynn123]

Dear Calculon,

How do you think we got our name, "spirit guide"? I personally prefer rum to tequila, but to each his own.

Until my next post.

Francine

well that makes perfect sense now that you explain it that way.

[Kilgore Trout]

My take.. As I watched it, I thought, "Wow, that's great, maybe this will get to her." But her reaction just made me think that she has no conscience, which didn't really surprise me.

After thinking about it, though, I was struck with the idea that someone believing in Sylvia may look into this and while they may find that Sylvia was wrong, they may also find this as validation that there are spirits that were in contact with this poor man which caused him to pass out. They may find Sylvia ... fallible, but it may also reinforce their ideas of a spirit world.

If they buy into the idea that these spirits are angry with Sylvia and working through this man, they are also buying into the idea that there are spirits working through this man.

And, on top of that, Sylvia doesn't even buy into her own nonsense (it seems to me) so it really wouldn't shake her.

[Calculon]

My take.. As I watched it, I thought, "Wow, that's great, maybe this will get to her." But her reaction just made me think that she has no conscience, which didn't really surprise me.

After thinking about it, though, I was struck with the idea that someone believing in Sylvia may look into this and while they may find that Sylvia was wrong, they may also find this as validation that there are spirits that were in contact with this poor man which caused him to pass out. They may find Sylvia ... fallible, but it may also reinforce their ideas of a spirit world.

If they buy into the idea that these spirits are angry with Sylvia and working through this man, they are also buying into the idea that there are spirits working through this man.

And, on top of that, Sylvia doesn't even buy into her own nonsense (it seems to me) so it really wouldn't shake her.

Sylvia always has a comeback when she is shown to be way off the mark. We might see it immediately, but her true believers will be able to ignore the contradictions.

But if everytime Sylvia appeared, she was challenged and started to worry when calling on people, that would rattle her a little. Whether it be visible protesters, fliers appearing in the venue, challengers at the microphone, stunts....they can all play a part.

If you can make it to one of her events, please do.

[Kilgore Trout]

But if everytime Sylvia appeared, she was challenged and started to worry when calling on people, that would rattle her a little.

Well, that's why I can't dismiss the entire situation. I can't really bring myself to say this wasn't without some merit, as Sylvia won't know when there's someone that's going to make her look like a lying, callous, fool. We don't all have long white beards. (Well, some do.. :) )

But I meant it in reference to the video where Mark mentions hoping she has bad dreams.. (Sorry, if I've misquoted somehow; I watched a couple days ago and only now commented...) I think she sleeps quite well at night.

[rjh01]

Someone in JREF is reading these forums. There is now a SWIFT on this subject.
Ref http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/825-sylvia-browne-one-cool-cucumber.html

[Lucian]

Wow, welcome Francine! As far as I know, you are the only member posting from the Other Side. I'm impressed.

[Susan Gerbic]

About fricking time you started speaking out on your own Francine. Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for that link to the SWIFT blog, very well written.

[Questioninggeller]

BradlE-Uloc

The really interesting thing is that no one, including Montel Williams or Browne, cared to help a collapsed person.

[Minarvia]

I'm glad you're back, Francine. I have 2 questions if you don't mind...

1. You are REALLY stuck with her until she dies? There aren't any exit points for you? Maybe a buddy of yours who owes you a favor? : )

2. What is my spirit guide's name?

Thanks and welcome!

[Calculon]

Dear Calculon,

Your guide is Alexis, silly. Funny you should mention tequila because she was knocking back celebratory Patron that night. I didn't want to say anything to put a damper on the evening. She was having a good time, bless her heart, and she wasn't responsible for driving you home.

As a matter of fact, The Other Side isn't much different than Earth. We all enjoy some good spirits from time to time.

How do you think we got our name, "spirit guide"? I personally prefer rum to tequila, but to each his own.

Until my next post.

Francine

Alexis makes perfect sense. And she really enjoyed the Cazadores I bought the other night.

[Francine]

Sylvia always has a comeback when she is shown to be way off the mark. We might see it immediately, but her true believers will be able to ignore the contradictions. QUOTE]

Yes, she always has a comeback and her hardcore believers do ignore the contradictions. But she is rapidly losing popularity compared to say five years or so ago. Especially since Montel ended. She will continue on her downward spiral because she's:

brash
opinionated
rude to her fans
uncouth

A lot of people have already seen that. For some reason, she thinks that she is and always will be better than anyone else. More of her fans are seeing that coldness in her and running for the hills.

[QUOTE=Lucian;5483912] Wow, welcome Francine! As far as I know, you are the only member posting from the Other Side. I'm impressed.

Thank you. :D

About fricking time you started speaking out on your own Francine. Welcome to the forum! QUOTE]

Thank you. :D

[QUOTE=Minarvia;5490853]I'm glad you're back, Francine. I have 2 questions if you don't mind...

1. You are REALLY stuck with her until she dies? There aren't any exit points for you? Maybe a buddy of yours who owes you a favor? : )

2. What is my spirit guide's name?

Thanks and welcome!

Dear Minarvia,

1. Yes, I am stuck. Please keep me in your thoughts.

2. Douglas

:D

Alexis makes perfect sense. And she really enjoyed the Cazadores I bought the other night.

That's wonderful. :D

[CasaRojo]

Mark was NOT debunking! He was letting Sylvia and Montel know that skeptics can get close. Mark was also showing us the skeptic community how easy it is to punk these monsters. You just have to have some nerve and stand up to them.

The followers of these people totally buy into to their BS. No matter how they're busted they're going to get a pass by their loyal mindless groupies. The only way to get to them is make it well known that not everyone is going to give these leeches a pass. As long as it's legal, whatever hinders them is warranted, absolutely reasonable and is better than doing nothing at all.

[Ernie M]

I had a Freudian slip/thought when I saw the title of this thread... I thought it read "Finally saw Sylvia Browne in prison."

Is it normal to think that?

[luchog]

I had a Freudian slip/thought when I saw the title of this thread... I thought it read "Finally saw Sylvia Browne in prison."

Is it normal to think that?

Unfortunately, not yet.

[Susan Gerbic]

Here is Mark Edward's second part of the Sylvia got punked Story

http://skepticblog.org/2010/01/09/sylvia-shakedown-pt-ii/#comment-16890