Secularist Revolution in America?

[Upchurch]

I'm listening to Bill O'Reilly and he's talking about the "secularists" who are trying to take over America. I wasn't aware that the US was ever a religious nation. Is there any credibility to his claim or is it just spin/propoganda.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

What was the question? I got distracted by the snappy threads you're wearing. :)

I think the US has always been a secular nation that likes to think of itself as religious.

[Tmy]

The US isnt becoming more secular, its becoming less Christian.

THe variety of beliefs has led to the govt neutrality when it comes to religion and state.

Look at the schools for example. They cant really accomodate for all beliefs so its easier to accomodate NONE. Otherwise youll have some complainer coming out of the woodwork about how their wiccan kid is being left out of the Xmas-Hannucka-Hoilday celebration.

[Nasarius]

First-class Simpsons reference (http://www.angelfire.com/super2/simpsonman/beertalk.wav), Mr. Upchurch :D
As for the question, it seems like the US population is getting more religious and conservative. Thankfully, we have separation of Church and state, so unless the Constitution is amended, we will never actually be a religious nation.

[Thanz]

Uh, aren't you guys supposed to be a secular nation? You know, separation of church and state and all that?

As to O'Reilley's claim, without more context I don't know what he means. How are these "secularists" taking over America? In what way? Did he in any way use actual facts to back this up, or was it just some blather? Sounds just like spin/propaganda to me.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm listening to Bill O'Reilly .... So, was this part of some sort of "Clockwork Orange"-type experiment, or what?

[c0rbin]

A popular argument proponents of Moral Absolutism (what ever that means) in the US like to spout is that no where in the body of our country's legal mechanism does the phrase "separation of church and state" appear, therefore we must all feel comfortable exhorting the AlphaOmega as the source of our laws and moral fortitude.

I am not rote-familiar with every sylable in the constitution, but I do know that the first amendment of our Bill of Rights says this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I ask this, as a firm believer of the concept that religion has no place in government, from where does the phrase "seperation of church and state" originate?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm listening to Bill O'Reilly and he's talking about the "secularists" who are trying to take over America. I wasn't aware that the US was ever a religious nation. Is there any credibility to his claim or is it just spin/propoganda.

Whether we are a religious nation depends on how you define "religious nation". Are we a religious nation in any sort of legal/official sense? no. Are we one in the sense that we have a very large population of religious people? I would say yes.

I don't think that there is any sort of secular revolution going on though. I think those of us with a secular bent are more vocal about not being force fed religion and there are many segments of the religious community that don't like that, but I wouldn't characterize it as a revolution. It's more just standing up for ourselves

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by Thanz
... As to O'Reilley's claim, without more context I don't know what he means. How are these "secularists" taking over America? In what way? Did he in any way use actual facts to back this up, or was it just some blather? Sounds just like spin/propaganda to me. Unpossible. Upchurch had entered a no-spin zone at the time.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Nasarius
First-class Simpsons reference (http://www.angelfire.com/super2/simpsonman/beertalk.wav), Mr. Upchurch :D And an excellent catch to you!
Originally posted by Brown
So, was this part of some sort of "Clockwork Orange"-type experiment, or what?Skeptomasicism. Also helps to keep the ol' BS meter calibrated.
Mahatma Kane Jeeves
What was the question? I got distracted by the snappy threads you're wearing. Tre chic, no? :D
I think the US has always been a secular nation that likes to think of itself as religious. I think you're close. I think the US is a secular nation made up of mostly religious people.

I'm not much of a historian, but from what I've read and heard, the addition of "God" to things like the Pledge and money and what have you mostly came around during the fifties as a way of distancing ourselves from Soviet Communism. Their introduction had nothing to do with the Constitution or the founding fathers or being Christian and had everything to do with fear. Now, that introduction, which was a reactionary move, is being corrupted (if it was ever truly uncorrupt) as a precedent for allowing more relgion into a secular government.

I dunno....

[Upchurch]

Some context from the horse's mouth: http://www.thebluesite.com/archives/000265.html
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billoreilly/bo20021207.shtml
http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=bor
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103650,00.html

[evildave]

Right now in California, there's a bunch of nitwits who want to make the Bible a required piece of study material in schools: for "Literature".

Oh great, as if our schools weren't under enough liability pressure. All you parents, convert your kids to Islam! Maybe Hindo. And Judaism, and Catholicism, since they're talking King James Version ONLY! Get ready to rake in the cash as you SUE SUE SUE your troubles away!

That's right. I don't care if you make the kids read a Bible any more than a Grimm's fables. It's the other religious people who'll raise whatever kinds of Hells they believe in on this one. Plenty of Christians don't believe the KJV bible is the "holy one", so why should Wiccans?

Do you realize the cool kinds of sparks that'll fly the first time a teacher with "Jesus in her heart" can't keep her mouth shut?

Naturally, it's the secularists who're blamed when these things get stricken down in the courts at the request of angry religious people. Just like that stupidity at the football game. Especially after the flames cool down and the great American herd forgets what it was all about, and the fundies have put their spin on it.

[c0rbin]

Right now in California, there's a bunch of nitwits who want to make the Bible a required piece of study material in schools: for "Literature".

This is less bothersom to me than treating the Bible as science. I for one can see how the Bible would fit into a cirriculum of Literature as many masterworks that follow allude directly to it.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by c0rbin
I ask this, as a firm believer of the concept that religion has no place in government, from where does the phrase "seperation of church and state" originate?
I don't know if it originated with Madison, but he seems to have used the phrase several times (http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm) (the rest of the site has a good background on the history of the Establishment Clause).

[Troll]

Originally posted by c0rbin
A popular argument proponents of Moral Absolutism (what ever that means) in the US like to spout is that no where in the body of our country's legal mechanism does the phrase "separation of church and state" appear, therefore we must all feel comfortable exhorting the AlphaOmega as the source of our laws and moral fortitude.

I am not rote-familiar with every sylable in the constitution, but I do know that the first amendment of our Bill of Rights says this:



I ask this, as a firm believer of the concept that religion has no place in government, from where does the phrase "seperation of church and state" originate?

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

"Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them, asking why he would not proclaim national days of fasting and thanksiving, as had been done by Washington and Adams before him. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which lead to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state.""

[Michael Redman]

The US is a religious country with a secular government.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by evildave
Right now in California, there's a bunch of nitwits who want to make the Bible a required piece of study material in schools: for "Literature".
I wish they had done this when I was in school. It may have been the only book in which I could correctly identify the "Christ-like figure".

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I think you're close. I think the US is a secular nation made up of mostly religious people.
I've always gotten the impression that people want to appear that religion is important to them (because they think that is expected), but it doesn't really play an important role in their lives. However, my perceptions on this may be skewed by being and agnostic, living in the Northeast US, etc.

This is interesting, though:

New Research Casts More Doubt On Church Attendance Figures (http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/church1.htm)
In questions about church attendance, though, one item has bothered sociologists for decades; the percentage of Americans claiming that they attended religious services at least once a week has not changed in the past thirty years, hovering near 40% of respondents. That figure may well be inflated, though, suggests new research, including a study reported recently in the Washington Post. Conducted by sociologist Stanley Presser of the University of Maryland and research assistant Linda Stinson of the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, it indicates that a more accurate assessment of church attendance data shows only 26% of Americans regularly attending church -- a drop from the 42% reported in 1965. The new study also casts doubts on the two major sources which claim to have widely measured church participation, the National Opinion Research Center and the Gallup organization. NORC reported 38% of those surveyed claiming to attending weekly services; Gallup came in at a 42% figure.

[Crossbow]

These religious right folks always like to claim that the secular people are out to get them when they do not get their way.

Ugh!

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves

I don't know if it originated with Madison, but he seems to have used the phrase several times (http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm) (the rest of the site has a good background on the history of the Establishment Clause).


Jefferson (http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html)

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Thanks. Got it the first time (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870265135#post1870265135) :p

[patnray]

Originally posted by evildave
Right now in California, there's a bunch of nitwits who want to make the Bible a required piece of study material in schools: for "Literature".


I wouldn't object, any more than I would object to teaching a comparative religion class as long as it doesn't promote one religion. The fundies could be shooting themselves in the foot., though. Would it be studied as a work of fiction? Would they debate alternative interpretations (Adam and Eve: Descent from Paradise or Escape from Hell)?

My answer to the poll is that the government strives to be secular but the population is heavily influenced by religious myths. Most people are unaware that religious persecution was common in parts of this country before the constitution was adopted and therefore do not object when religion (or at least their religion) creeps into government policy.

Despite the secular aspirations, religious thinking deeply influences policy. Recall that Utah, founded by Mormons, was not allowed to join the union until the Mormons disavowed polygamy. I think it is extremely unlikely that an avowed atheist could be elected president in this country...

[fishbob]

These religious right folks always like to claim that the secular people are out to get them when they do not get their way. Persecution is a good recruiting tool when the persecutors don't really shoot and lock up the persecutees.

[Doubt]

Of course there is a secular revolution. We even have slogans:

2, 4, 6, 8 we don’t want to meditate.

You can have my science based biology text book when you pry it from my cold, dead, fingers.

Critical thinking…..Catch it.

WWASH do? (What Would A Secular Humanist do?)

If God had intended man to fly, the Maharishi Yogi wouldn’t need commercial aviation.

Bright me!

Think sex toys, not alter boys.

Dousing works best at wet T-shirt contests.

The only perpetual energy is the effort that keeps those scams going.

Evolution…..It’s not just for invertebrates anymore.

What did Noah feed to the predatory dinosaurs?

It’s 10:00 PM. Do you know which faith healing tele-evangilist your idiot neighbor is watching?

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
The US is a religious country with a secular government.

If the goverment is secular, then why does the leader of this government end his speeches with "and may God bless the United States of America?"
And why is he so stoked on faith based initiatives?

Am I to believe he is doing all this just to appease his religious subjects, yet the government should still be considered secular. I'm not buying it.
Remember the outcry from the folks in the congress and senate when a court ruled that keeping "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance was unconstitutional. They had a fit. Didn't they all congregate outside and recite the pledge.

If this is a secular government, I'd hate to see a religous one!