In California

[evildave]

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/7659831.htm

In California they're circulating a petition to make the Bible (KING JAMES VERSION ONLY) required reading in schools.

Can you visualize what will happen the first time a teacher who's "With Jesus" can't keep her mouth shut in class?

And they're talking about distributing them to every student, every grade. That's 12 years of non-stop indoctrination they want.

And students can choose not to participate? HOW? Every year, they just go back and sit (singled out) at the back of the class while the rest of the class has a <s>theological</s> "literature" discussion about why Jesus said this and Jesus said that?

And what about the Christians who don't recognize the KJV as being "right"? How do they discuss it without dragging their whole religion into class? Never mind Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, Animist, etc. students. Oh wait, they'll be sitting in the back being told to "shut up".

Lawsuits galore for the school districts.

Me personally, I don't care if they read the Bible or Grimm's fairy tales. Same content, generally. It's the religious people who'll get it struck down by the high court, and the secularists who'll be blamed for it by the fundies (if patterns repeat) when this stupid idea doesn't fly.

[Upchurch]

At least the secretary of state recognizes that it is not only a bad idea but unworkable.

[triadboy]

It might do some kids good to read about the incest, wife-swapping, whoring, and common debauchery the patriarchs loved to do.

Reading similar stories separated by generations may clue them into the mythmaking process.

They would not be hand-held by the clergy about which passages to concentrate. They would be able to read it through uninterrupted.

Might be a good thing.

Now if the 'teacher' announces to the class "we're going to skip this part" Then she should be removed.

[Vorticity]

At my California public high school, the Bible was required reading. We read parts of it during English class when we were studying classical Western literature (i.e. Beowulf, Milton, etc...). I was and am an atheist, and I had no problem with it. Granted, they didn't pass out actual Bibles, they handed out mimeographed sheets, but it wouldn't have made much difference to me.

I guess it all depends on how they do it.

It seems to me that knowledge of the Bible is essential to anyone who wants to understand Western Lit, just as you'd have to be familiar with Gilgamesh, Greek myth, etc. If they approach it from that angle, then OK.... but if they make it a part of some special non-literary "Bible unit" then we've got a problem.

[patnray]

I'm all for it. As long as it is taught as fiction and they debate alternative interpretations (Adam and Eve: Descent from Paradise or Escape from Hell?)....

[Zep]

This (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/) would be the perfect reference source for ANY such student research. Highly recommended reading for ALL biblical students, actually.

[Yahweh]

Required bible reading in Highschools, I'll respond appropriately with obnoxiously loud chortling...

(But if its the good old SAB, then I'm all for it... go SAB!)

[evildave]

Well, just think of the possibilities!

A student brings up a SAB quote (and let's get real, any fundy who's into spreadin' the gospel to kids will have memorized the "answers" to every SAB issue), do you really think in such a forum as a classroom that such questions would be allowed? Indeed, there'll be religiously funded "camps" over summer to train teachers how to deal with "troublesome" questions.

And of course, when the TEACHER blows a fuse (or several of your fundy peers blow their respective fuses), who's the "trouble maker" who'll be sent to the administrator's office?

And why should one book be studied year after year? Why not study the religious texts, ancient and/or foreign of many different cultures? I would say save the bible for last, with seniors in high school, when they're at their most skeptical and rebelious. Once they've been exposed to ALL of the god and demigod myths predating Christianity, (especially the GREEK ones), and get a little exposure to propaganda techniques, then let them examine the Christian's most holy book.


I remember a lot of English classes where the teacher told us to "interpret" what an author was "saying" with their story. My conclusions seldom matched what the teacher had, and frankly, sometimes I wondered what sort of drugs they were on (or the original person who wrote the study gude was on) to reach those conclusions. The historical and biographical background necessary to come up with even the remotest of guesses was usually never presented, and nor were the techniques to ferret that out. And besides, sometimes a story really is just a story, and there's no point in trying to "get into the head" of someone I've never even met, or make "Wild @$$ guesses" about what he really, secretly meant.

Of course, a syllabus can be designed where interpreting a biblical passage on a test in any manner other than that prescribed by a teacher (or administration, with or without an agenda) can be made more easily than a syllabus that evaluates responses creatively. One needs an automated mark-o-matic scanner for multiple-guess tests, and the other needs the teacher to stay up all night reading the opinions of kids. Guess which will be prevalent?

If you had a student who had strong religious ideals was taught a contrary "interpretation" of relevant passages covered in a BIBLE class, that student would probably fail the class. Repeatedly. Makes you think about the subtle possibilities for discrimination based on religious bias.

Of course, without multiple-guess testing, it can be even worse. Every answer is subjective, and every test outcome is subjective. What insidious things will creep in when the teacher simply philosophically disagrees with the opinions being cited? I bet the kids who go to the same church as teacher will generally get better scores.

[Zep]

Zep prediction: The whole idea will fall on its big fat nose before crossing the starting line.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by evildave

In California they're circulating a petition to make the Bible (KING JAMES VERSION ONLY) required reading in schools.


The King James Version alone of all the translations is a great work of English literature.

I was read the KJV as a child. It was instrumental in making me an atheist.

What's wrong with that? :p

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by triadboy
It might do some kids good to read about the incest, wife-swapping, whoring, and common debauchery the patriarchs loved to do.


You are too vague. Let's see how much you really know about the Bible.

Precisely how many Philistine foreskins did David deliver to Saul as a bride price? :p

[c4ts]

Originally posted by evildave
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/7659831.htm

In California they're circulating a petition to make the Bible (KING JAMES VERSION ONLY) required reading in schools.

Can you visualize what will happen the first time a teacher who's "With Jesus" can't keep her mouth shut in class?

And they're talking about distributing them to every student, every grade. That's 12 years of non-stop indoctrination they want.

And students can choose not to participate? HOW? Every year, they just go back and sit (singled out) at the back of the class while the rest of the class has a <s>theological</s> "literature" discussion about why Jesus said this and Jesus said that?

And what about the Christians who don't recognize the KJV as being "right"? How do they discuss it without dragging their whole religion into class? Never mind Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, Animist, etc. students. Oh wait, they'll be sitting in the back being told to "shut up".

Lawsuits galore for the school districts.

Me personally, I don't care if they read the Bible or Grimm's fairy tales. Same content, generally. It's the religious people who'll get it struck down by the high court, and the secularists who'll be blamed for it by the fundies (if patterns repeat) when this stupid idea doesn't fly.

The Bible should be read by anyone who wants to understand most of Western literature. It is unfortunate that fundies cannot recognize or appreciate it as literature.

[evildave]

True, the Bible should be read by anyone who wants to understand why some of those bloody wars were faught in previous centuries, and to "get" some of the often used metaphors, like "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Any number of other books are "Must reads". The Malleus Maleficarum (http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/) should also be mandated as read to help understand what drove all those people murder each other as "witches" and such. It provides a good example of what people believed when faith in religious authority was all that mattered.

[geni]

IF they are going to do this they should do it properly. The bible should be studdied in it's origanal greek and hebrew

[elliotfc]

I happen to like the Bible, but forget that.

Gobs and gobs and gobs of literature, great literature, allude to the Bible, assume a knowledge of the Bible, or deserve to be compared to the Bible. It's the most important book in existence, from a literary standpoint.

The aritcle says that the Bible would be studied with literature. If anything, that might offend a Christian more than a non-Christian. Theology relegated to an equal status with other books? I could see how that would piss off a fundmentalist.

As usual, people are unable to disassociate their feelings from common sense. As an English major and someone who reads 5 books a week, coherency in the Bible is beyond useful on a literary level.

-Elliot

[c4ts]

Originally posted by geni
IF they are going to do this they should do it properly. The bible should be studdied in it's origanal greek and hebrew

Yes! Make them all learn Greek and Hebrew! By the end they'd all know Spanish really well, because it's nothing compared to either of those two languages.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by geni
IF they are going to do this they should do it properly. The bible should be studdied in it's origanal greek and hebrew

I think that's missing the point...

The article says it would be studied as literature. The key then is knowing the people, the stories, the plot devices and all that. It isn't a scholarly deal, or a historical deal, but a humanities deal.

Again, I think this might bother the most fundmental of Christians, who believe that the Bible is literal history. How'd a set of fundamentalist parents like it if their son was told in a literature setting that the Bible was full of great stories and was the best fiction ever produced?

-Elliot

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

I really doubt that this mystical land of California even exists! Even worse is that idea of a far out fairy land world Australia! I just want evidence!

[geni]

Originally posted by elliotfc


I think that's missing the point...

The article says it would be studied as literature. The key then is knowing the people, the stories, the plot devices and all that. It isn't a scholarly deal, or a historical deal, but a humanities deal.


But if you want to understand these would it not be better to study it in the language it was written in (Ok my course does not have anything to do with the humanities).

[Zep]

Originally posted by !Xx+-Rational-+xX!
I really doubt that this mystical land of California even exists! Even worse is that idea of a far out fairy land world Australia! I just want evidence! Are you calling me a fairy, towel-brain???

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by Zep
Are you calling me a fairy, towel-brain???

No, you must live in England or something! Australia doesn't exist I just want evidence! Kangaroos have just as much evidence as fairies they are the same thing! You may think you live in this magical land called Australia but you must live somewhere else this place doesn't exist in reality!

[Zep]

Originally posted by !Xx+-Rational-+xX!
No, you must live in England or something! Australia doesn't exist I just want evidence! Kangaroos have just as much evidence as fairies they are the same thing! You may think you live in this magical land called Australia but you must live somewhere else this place doesn't exist in reality! Your hat is too tight again.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by Zep
Your hat is too tight again.

Maybe it's New Zealand! Don't worry we will figure out where you live! We can only hope that the natural laws of the universe will lead you to realizing that this magical land doesn't exist!

[Zep]

Originally posted by !Xx+-Rational-+xX!
Maybe it's New Zealand! Don't worry we will figure out where you live! We can only hope that the natural laws of the universe will lead you to realizing that this magical land doesn't exist! Yep indeedy. Your hat needs checking.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Is this what the mystical kangaroo told you!? Are you ready to tell us where you really live!?

[evildave]

Originally posted by elliotfc
I happen to like the Bible, but forget that.

Gobs and gobs and gobs of literature, great literature, allude to the Bible, assume a knowledge of the Bible, or deserve to be compared to the Bible. It's the most important book in existence, from a literary standpoint.

...

As usual, people are unable to disassociate their feelings from common sense. As an English major and someone who reads 5 books a week, coherency in the Bible is beyond useful on a literary level.

-Elliot

True, but how many "great works of literature" should be purchased by the state and distributed free every single year to every student? Sounds a bit like state funded religion to me.

(Ahh! The California Bible people have a website! (http://www.kingjamestextbook.com/pages/1/index.htm))

Awfully skimpy on the details in my opinion.

This stinks of a publicity stunt to blame their repeated failure to pass this idiocy into law on "certain people". A bit like that Judge down south with his big rock in the court lobby.

You know, there are a LOT of texts that are very important to lots of people.

If they should receive the bible, then every student should receive a free bound hardcopy of anything they want from the http://www.sacred-texts.com website. Maybe the section on "Sacred Sexuality" would interest 'em.

[Zep]

Originally posted by !Xx+-Rational-+xX!
Is this what the mystical kangaroo told you!? Are you ready to tell us where you really live!? Your eyes look crossed and bleary. Is that a permanent thing or have you been self-medicating again?

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by Zep
Your eyes look crossed and bleary. Is that a permanent thing or have you been self-medicating again?

Where is your evidence for Australia!? We can get you help and possibly bring you back in touch with the real world!

[Checkmite]

I don't see this working. Not on account of the schools or cirriculum, but because their will either be: 1) some embryo fundy holier-than-these-heathens evangelist (or perhaps a group of them) who will constantly try to inject religion into the discussion, either of his (their) own accord or as per instructions from Interest Group X, and will complain if the teacher, staff, or other students object; or, conversely, 2) there will be some rebellious I'm-an-atheist-because-my-friends-are-and-my-parents-aren't dweeb who'll try to impress his friends, or try to piss people off "just because I want to", who'll say "look at fallacy X, how can any idiot believe this crap". Either way, the "literature" discussion will become a religious one, and the bible sessions will become untenable.

[LW]

Originally posted by triadboy
It might do some kids good to read about the incest, wife-swapping, whoring, and common debauchery the patriarchs loved to do.

Ezekiel 23.

I think Ezekiel 23:19-20 is actually a messianic prophecy, though they garbled up the gender of the pronouns. [It mentions "youth" and "Egypt", a clear reference to Matthew 2:13-15, much clearer than the casting of lots of Psalm 22.]

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by evildave
True, but how many "great works of literature" should be purchased by the state and distributed free every single year to every student? Sounds a bit like state funded religion to me.

Well, let's see:

Dracula
Moby Dick
Ethan Frome
Animal Farm
Great Expectations

among many others (at least at the public school I attended).

I have no problem with the Bible being studied as an influential piece of literature (which it undoubtably is). However, I think it should be studied in the junior and seniors years of high school, and probably only in advanced English classes (esp. relating to history of Western literature); the book is clearly controversial, and should be studied by students mature and intelligent enough to look at it objectively.

The only real "indoctrination" part of the article is the mention of the cost of distributing the Bible to every K-12 student. If that is the plan of the petition, then I say no; there is no need for any book, however important, to be studied every year, and that smacks of trying to instill religious belief.

[Zep]

Originally posted by !Xx+-Rational-+xX!
Where is your evidence for Australia!? We can get you help and possibly bring you back in touch with the real world! Like you, you mean, flattie?

[Checkmite]

Because the King James Version is an English translation, that makes the bible a "work of Western Literature" - to say nothing of whether it was a "great" work or not? I'm not so sure. That would be like saying an English translation of the Bagavad Gita is a great work of Western Literature...it's not. The bible is unequivocally a work of Classical Literature. This is important.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by Zep
Like you, you mean, flattie?

Evidence!? The believers want you to think Australia exists but they are more deluded then the planet x fanatics! This may be harder then I thought with you because they have brain washed you!

[Zep]

Originally posted by !Xx+-Rational-+xX!
Evidence!? The believers want you to think Australia exists but they are more deluded then the planet x fanatics! This may be harder then I thought with you because they have brain washed you! Is there actually room for a brain in your flat head, mate?

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by geni


But if you want to understand these would it not be better to study it in the language it was written in (Ok my course does not have anything to do with the humanities).

But you're asking for an improbability/impossibility. You'd teach kids aramaic/greek at the expense of what? Similar to reading translations of Oedipus or Beowulf, it's LITERATURE that is the point, and not linguistics.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by evildave


True, but how many "great works of literature" should be purchased by the state and distributed free every single year to every student? Sounds a bit like state funded religion to me.

No, only if you teach it AS religion. You could teach the Bible as high/low comedy if you want.

Again, if it is taught as literature that would de-emphasize the religion/truth/history part of it.

This stinks of a publicity stunt to blame their repeated failure to pass this idiocy into law on "certain people". A bit like that Judge down south with his big rock in the court lobby.

No doubt. All I can say is as a FAN of the Bible I hope this gets shot down. Doesn't feel right.

You know, there are a LOT of texts that are very important to lots of people.

Exactly. Especially the Bible, it has been important to hundreds of taught and celebrated writers, from Tolstoy to Shakespeare to Faulkner.

If they should receive the bible, then every student should receive a free bound hardcopy of anything they want from the http://www.sacred-texts.com website. Maybe the section on "Sacred Sexuality" would interest 'em.

Surely none of those texts have a commensurate impact of world literature, or, the world literature that is taught in American schools.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
I don't see this working. Not on account of the schools or cirriculum, but because their will either be: 1) some embryo fundy holier-than-these-heathens evangelist (or perhaps a group of them) who will constantly try to inject religion into the discussion, either of his (their) own accord or as per instructions from Interest Group X, and will complain if the teacher, staff, or other students object; or, conversely, 2) there will be some rebellious I'm-an-atheist-because-my-friends-are-and-my-parents-aren't dweeb who'll try to impress his friends, or try to piss people off "just because I want to", who'll say "look at fallacy X, how can any idiot believe this crap". Either way, the "literature" discussion will become a religious one, and the bible sessions will become untenable.

You're probably right, which is why I would be against this.

Most people are just immature, especially in public school environments. If only it weren't so...but it is.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by aerosolben


The only real "indoctrination" part of the article is the mention of the cost of distributing the Bible to every K-12 student. If that is the plan of the petition, then I say no; there is no need for any book, however important, to be studied every year, and that smacks of trying to instill religious belief.

I think that many organizations across the country distribute KJVs for free...but that wouldn't look good I guess.

Bibles aren't that expensive anyhow...no copyright fees. They are thick, but I see KJVs selling under $10 all the time; they could be had for $5 a pop in bulk I'm sure.

-Elliot

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by Zep
Is there actually room for a brain in your flat head, mate?

Your memories of mystical kangaroos are only false memories you poor deluded quack!

[c4ts]

What the hell are you smoking?

[DarkMagician]

Man, this reminds me of a story I saw:
Dear John,

As you know, we've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in the schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during the prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the Supreme Court and get that old devil-inspired ruling reversed.

Naturally, we were all excited by the school board's action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more, though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.

After the first day of school, I asked him, "How did the prayer time go?"

"Fine."

"Did many kids go out into the hallway?"

"Two."

"Excellent. How did you like your teacher's prayer?"

"It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray."

"Oh? Like how?"

"She said, 'Hail, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners...'"
The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't prejudice against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy being transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away.

At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross-legged on the floor, closed his eyes, raised his hands palms up and began to hum.

You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning. "Look," I said. "I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable if you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices and older, more established religion.'"

That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.

"I don't think your going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer, either, Dad."

"Out with it."

"She kept calling God 'O Great Budda...'"

The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot. "Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever or to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher that prays in Jesus' name!"

"What about Bertha Smith?"

"Excellent."

I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.

"Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.

"Okay."

"Okay what?"

"Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus name, amen - just like you."

I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting some place."

"She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy.

I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?"

"Let's see..." he mused for a moment. " 'And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.'"

We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said, reaching for the door handle. Then I paused. I couldn't place the scripture. "Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?"

"Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18."

"Third what?"

"Nephi," he said, "It's in the Book of Mormon."

The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don't need the schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.

(courtesy of Atheists.org)

[evildave]

You'd be amazed how turning any public domain document into a textbook automatically inflates the cost of the study material massively, and makes the content copyrighted (i.e. the specific preface, footnotes and any other content they insert as "study aids"). This will certainly be a "value added" edition of the bible that gets put into the schools. After all, there will be substantial costs deciding which portions of the book and study aids can be presented to which grades of school.

As for the http://www.sacred-texts.com website, it contains the classic Greek and Roman works, but disregarding all of those "lesser" influences on European history, it also contains the bible, too. Several versions of it, with details about which people use which parts. Even the cut-out parts. The KJV one, at that.

I'm sure you could make the argument of the Bible being vitally important for European culture, but the Q'ran/Koran/(however you want to spell it) is pretty important to about a billion followers of Islam. Sounds like pretty important literature to me, seeing as European culture has spent some centuries fighting bloody wars with these people. I think we'd better make sure everyone gets a free copy of that, too. If someone does an especially good job of translating the Q'ran to English (and standardizes the spelling), would that be a "Great Work Of Western Literature"? Certainly it would be on a par with translating the Hebrew and Greek biblical tales, except they were already in Latin by that time.

Then there's the various eastern works. Would you like to understand the Japanese? The Chinese? Heck, that's another billion+ people. Of course, then we'd have to give out communist literature for free. To understand them.

After all, everyone can agree that public schools don't provide a very well-rounded presentation of world history and literature.

All in all, it's taking yet another religion-in-politics (aka United States of Jesus) battle and setting it up to be faught in the classrooms where it can be at its most disruptive and destructive.

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by elliotfc


I think that many organizations across the country distribute KJVs for free...but that wouldn't look good I guess.

Bibles aren't that expensive anyhow...no copyright fees. They are thick, but I see KJVs selling under $10 all the time; they could be had for $5 a pop in bulk I'm sure.

-Elliot

Price was not my concern when making that comment.

[evildave]

Of course, this is potentially a very lucrative crooked business to get in on the ground floor of:

Be the copyright holder of the only authorized textbook version of the KJV Bible that the state must buy millions of copies of.

Remember: you don't hold the copyright on the KJV Bible, just the footnotes and introductions and such that are interspersed with it; the ones the state committees had the arguments over, and approved. A bit like cleaning the fuzz off an old film, or the pops and hiss off an old audio recording and releasing your "digitally enhanced" version to extend a copyright, or make a new claim on a copyright that lapsed.

The bar for entry into the market is raised considerably, as everything will have to be approved by the state for any other version of the textbook, and by the time that happens, the whole deal will be nuked in the supreme court. In the couple of years where the state was exclusively buying (of all things) bibles from you, you'll have made your wad of cash, anyway.


Ironically, Christians complain that CHINA doesn't have religious freedom for having only one "official" state sanctioned version of Christianity, and some of them are backing this KJV constitutional ammendment.



DarkMagician: Nice story. Though really, it's those kids standing (QUIET, HEATHENS!) in the hallway who are ostracized. Literally.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by evildave
I'm sure you could make the argument of the Bible being vitally important for European culture, but the Q'ran/Koran/(however you want to spell it) is pretty important to about a billion followers of Islam. Sounds like pretty important literature to me, seeing as European culture has spent some centuries fighting bloody wars with these people. I think we'd better make sure everyone gets a free copy of that, too. If someone does an especially good job of translating the Q'ran to English (and standardizes the spelling), would that be a "Great Work Of Western Literature"? Certainly it would be on a par with translating the Hebrew and Greek biblical tales, except they were already in Latin by that time.

I dunno. I thought the topic was literature. As far as literature that they teach in schools go, the Bible is an invaluable resource and influence, end of. The Koran just isn't influential as far as literature studied in American schools go.

-Elliot

[evildave]

What you're saying is the Bible is already influential in American schools? Then why push it?

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by evildave
What you're saying is the Bible is already influential in American schools? Then why push it?

No, the Bible was influential in the construction of books taught in American schools, and would be useful in understanding the context of these books. I'm looking at this from a purely intellectual standpoint. If you place a premium on understanding literature and the authors and the contexts, this would be self-evident.

-Elliot

[c4ts]

Originally posted by elliotfc


I dunno. I thought the topic was literature. As far as literature that they teach in schools go, the Bible is an invaluable resource and influence, end of. The Koran just isn't influential as far as literature studied in American schools go.

-Elliot

Wrong. The Koran's influence on middle eastern culture, politics, and literature is at least equal to the Bible's influence on the west.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by c4ts


Wrong. The Koran's influence on middle eastern culture, politics, and literature is at least equal to the Bible's influence on the west.

Let's stick to literature. Name the books, taught in grammar schools (commonly of course) that are influenced by the Koran DIRECTLY where having a Koran besides you would help the learning process.

-Elliot

[evildave]

Yep, Islam had no impact on western cuture at all. Uh-huh. Sure.

BULL.

http://www.amualumni.8m.com/KSAHistory.htm


During this period, Islam, as a religion and culture, underwent a number of important developments in the field of science, mathematics, astrology, medicine, geography and architecture flourished. The invention of printing books and making public library was one the grate work in this period. Even after the fall of Umayyed Khalifat in Damascus, they manage to rule over Spain. By the 10th century Spain has the world finest library and world largest book markets in Cَrdoba, Toledo, and Granada. Christian monks and scholars were often sent to Cَrdoba to acquire new works. In 1085 when the city of Toledo (Spain), with one of the finest libraries of Muslim, fell to the Christians, the scientific knowledge passed to Europe.

(And miraculously, the library was not burned by the conquering Christians!)

Another history of some of Islam's impact on the West, for those who are either forgetful, or ignorant of history.
http://www.mastep.sjsu.edu/history_of_tech/islam.htm

Scientific knowledge, architecture, mathematics, and philosophy flourished in Spain during the rule of the Umayyad. Much of this intellectual climate can be traced to the precepts of the Qur'an (in English, we sometimes refer to this as the Koran). Throughout the Qur'an, there is a strong emphasis on the value of knowledge. As noted in the tutorial, "because Muslims believe that Allah is all-knowing, they also believe that the human world's quest for knowledge leads to further knowing of Allah. Muslims must thus pursue knowledge not only of God's laws, but of the natural world as well, extending the frontiers of human knowledge. Unlike the revealed knowledge of the Qur'an, Muslims believe that human knowledge is not perfect, and requires constant exploration and advancement through research and experimentation. According to the Qur'an, learning and gaining knowledge is the highest form of religious activity for Muslims, and the one which is most pleasing to God."

So, we really ought to have the Koran (or other spelling) standardized and freely distrubuted to children who want it, because a lot of what literature and learning is, the West learned from ISLAM.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by evildave
So, we really ought to have the Koran (or other spelling) standardized and freely distrubuted to children who want it, because a lot of what literature and learning is, the West learned from ISLAM.

Duh. I never said anything in the contrary.

Again, and now this is just silly, I was only talking about the literature taught in grammar schools. If you can't name any books that have a direct link to the Koran, that what is the point?

The importance of Islam (not necessarily the Koran!) on Western thought is sadly under-appreciated but what does that have to do with literature? That falls under history or science or social whachamacallits.

Not trying to fight you here evildave, I was just being more specific than you I think.

-Elliot

[evildave]

Originally posted by elliotfc


Duh. I never said anything in the contrary.

Again, and now this is just silly, I was only talking about the literature taught in grammar schools. If you can't name any books that have a direct link to the Koran, that what is the point?

The importance of Islam (not necessarily the Koran!) on Western thought is sadly under-appreciated but what does that have to do with literature? That falls under history or science or social whachamacallits.

Not trying to fight you here evildave, I was just being more specific than you I think.

-Elliot

I just did: virtually the entire body of Western Literature predating the Rennaisance was preserved by Islamic people. Without them, many of the classical works we have today would be long lost, and probably unknown. There would be no "Classical Western Literature" (except maybe that Bible book), but for Islamic scholars and their public libraries and focus on learning.

The reason I point out that the Toledo Library was "miraculous" was that throughout the crusades (and other wars), the Christians burned everything they found. It's absolutely amazing they didn't burn that library, too.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

If something like telekinesis were ever proven then we will just hire someone who can actually do telekinesis to do it under laboratory conditions several times then later they will falsely claim that it was from trickery! Then people won't believe in TK anymore and our beliefs will be safe again! We don't have to worry about this happening though because the paranormal is irrational and science disproves it and science says "you can't be f**ing real"! Kooks you can't deny that science says this!

[c4ts]

Where did that quote come from? Another dimension?

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by evildave


I just did: virtually the entire body of Western Literature predating the Rennaisance was preserved by Islamic people. Without them, many of the classical works we have today would be long lost, and probably unknown. There would be no "Classical Western Literature" (except maybe that Bible book), but for Islamic scholars and their public libraries and focus on learning.

The reason I point out that the Toledo Library was "miraculous" was that throughout the crusades (and other wars), the Christians burned everything they found. It's absolutely amazing they didn't burn that library, too.

OK. No dispute.

Now here is the rub. Consider the books studied in American grammar schools in a literary setting. Name a book that is directly influenced by the Koran.

You are getting the Koran and Islam mixed up. The Fundamentalists Koran-types shut down the culture you are talking about. The West wasn't helped by Fundamentalist Islam at all.

-Elliot

[evildave]

You didn't study any of the classical Greek or Roman literature/history in school? The mythology and such? The stuff that the Muslims preserved that would have been lost to the West had they acted like Christians of the same period (i.e. burn all non-Christian books and scrolls discovered)? What a poor education you must have had.

Not to mention all of that math based on the works of those zany Greeks.

[evildave]

Of course, all those extra bibles being given away to every studend, we'll have a glut on them and need something to do with all of them.

1001 Uses For A Bible (http://members.sti.net/evildave/Bible1001.html)

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by evildave
You didn't study any of the classical Greek or Roman literature/history in school? The mythology and such? The stuff that the Muslims preserved that would have been lost to the West had they acted like Christians of the same period (i.e. burn all non-Christian books and scrolls discovered)? What a poor education you must have had.

No one is disagreeing with you with regard to the efforts of Islamic scholars to preserve ancient texts. The point is that these Greek and Roman books were not written by authors influenced by Islamic culture and the Koran, despite their preservation by Moslems.

The issue is not which religion had a greater role in creating the majority of the documents studied in schools today; the issue is which book(s) have been the most influential in the lives and beliefs of the authors who wrote the books used in schools today. Due to the historical Christian cultural domination of the United States and Europe (large sources for non-ancient texts), the Bible can be reasonably said to be an important influence.

This does not mean Christianity should be studied in schools, nor does it mean children should receive a "Christian" education. However, the non-religious study of the Bible as a literary document has some merit; more so than most other religious texts (not religions, religious texts), in the context of Western influence.

[Mona]

Originally posted by evildave
Yep, Islam had no impact on western cuture at all. Uh-huh. Sure.

BULL.

http://www.amualumni.8m.com/KSAHistory.htm


(And miraculously, the library was not burned by the conquering Christians!)

Another history of some of Islam's impact on the West, for those who are either forgetful, or ignorant of history.
http://www.mastep.sjsu.edu/history_of_tech/islam.htm



So, we really ought to have the Koran (or other spelling) standardized and freely distrubuted to children who want it, because a lot of what literature and learning is, the West learned from ISLAM.

Look, the Bible -- Old and New Testament -- informs the social, political and literary discourse of all Westerners of any intellectual capacity whatever. One cannot even comprehend United States social history and our civil religion without some understanding of the Hebrew and Xian scriptures. Absolutely legion are the sayings and characters from the Bible that infect our literature and music, along with related doctrinal spins, e.g. Original Sin.

I am and have long been a non-theist, but I studied the Bible from an anthropological/sociological perspective at a secular university where I majored in religious studies with an emphasis on religion in America. It is entirely possible to read and study the Bible in such a manner, and greatly improves ones understanding of Western culture. Indeed, I would deem any Westerner lacking significant exposure to the Bible as culturally illiterate.

[evildave]

Arguably (and I'll argue this until everyone agrees - if only insincerely to shut me up) there is no book so "relevant" that it needs to be not only studied every single year, but given away for children to keep for free by the state every single year if they only ask for it.

If a student wishes to do a book report on the bible, or a paper on the Bible's impact on civilization, then fine. That's one book report or paper for a class. There are other books to read. There are other books to comment on. There are other books to study. Hundreds of thousands of other books.

Why should students be encouraged to repeatedly read one (exceedingly boring, long-winded, and archaically written) book over and over again when there are many books on many subjects that reflect modern English as written in the the U.S.A., modern thinking and commentary on thousands of subjects, and many of which are much more interesting, even fun to read?

Reading this one book every year will be to the exclusion of other books that (while perhaps not having a great "influence" on someone's interpretation of how history was created by God through His Holy (KJV WITH OFFICIAL STATE SANCTIONED ONLY NOTES) Bible), have their own intrinsic value.

Especially the value of teaching kids to love reading. No kid will honestly say they "love" reading ALL OF the bible.


Besides, how will you introduce the impact of the Bible on "Literature" and "Culture" without introducing the fact that the KJV Bible is not the Catholic one, and the "OT" is not even really the same as the Hebrew one? The KJV impacted ENGLISH Bible readers (a minority of Europeans by any measure), but other versions impacted other language readers. The CATHOLIC BIBLE (in Latin) is most appropriate for the longest period of influence, and continued influence on European history and American histories. "Where's the petition to make this one the standard?" After all, Martin Luther wasn't even born until 50 years after the Americas were discovered, the his original non-Latin version of the Bible was into GERMAN, the vote to make the American "standard" language ENGLISH, instead of GERMAN was only off by one, and the first issue of KJV didn't even happen until 1611.

http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjvhist.html
http://www.wycliffe.org/history/BibleTranslation.htm

Now you have to go into slippery little details in a class full of children who just might BE Catholic, Hebrew or even Mormon (with additional books) about the relevant "impact" of why there are Protestants, and the differences between all of them, and oh, by the way, SOME of these kids who belong to the more "proactive" churches will have been primed in Sunday School (and after-school study groups) for what to ask and introduce, and how to answer (as well as continuous pressure to invite/coerce/drag other children into these "study groups").


In short, the Bible (AS WELL AS OTHER WORKS) probably should be studied by mature students with a sincere scholarly goal of understanding its "impact" on American culture, European culture, other cultures, etc. Few students in primary school, high school, even COLLEGE ages, fit a description of "mature enough" (emotionally, or academically) to get anything out of it but good fights over witnessing and attempted indoctrination into other people's <s>cults</s>churches.

[Mona]

Originally posted by evildave

In short, the Bible (AS WELL AS OTHER WORKS) probably should be studied by mature students with a sincere scholarly goal of understanding its "impact" on American culture, European culture, other cultures, etc. Few students in primary school, high school, even COLLEGE ages, fit a description of "mature enough" (emotionally, or academically) to get anything out of it but good fights over witnessing and attempted indoctrination into other people's <s>cults</s>churches. [/B]

Nonsense. I would expect *well-educated highschoolers to understand what it means to refer to Martin Luther King as a "modern day Moses" who was demanding "Let my people go." When a female in a novel is refered to as a "Jezebel," or a songstress croons of "Sampson succumbing to Delilah," or a betrayed character in a play asks how the betrayer will spend his "thirty pieces of silver," those are references and allusions a culturally literate, well-educated teenager should know. Such references/allusions to people, sayings and events in the Bible ***suffuse*** our literature, music and intellectual musings. The same is not true of the Koran, notwithstanding Islamic contributions to (and, as you document, preservation of) the Western intellectual corpus.

I have no strong opinion on the CA plan to give students Bibles every year, because I'm not clear on the purpose. Your opposition may well be justified, but not for all of the reasons you have given.

[evildave]

Well, I think all students should play Grand Theft Auto, so we can know what "Six Stars" means in another quote.

These biblical references are all accessible through on-line searches, footnotes, asking questions, or just getting a "feel" for them, without handing someone a physical copy of the bible of their very own to play "State Funded Gideon" with.

We can start from:
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible

From that, we can get that the Moses story appears in Genesis and Exodus, but it's unlikely anybody will NOT have been introduced to the Moses story through one channel of media or another.

Typing "Jezebel" into the search engine yields essentially "Cliff's Notes" for her actions. (Traitor) Of course, it's used frequently in acted media, and by individuals, and the tone can deliver the meaning to anyone who isn't totally numb.

The Sampson/Delilah is a similarly well-known fable, and another wicked woman who brings about another sorrowful (although "triumphant") end.

With another quick search, we not only find out that the precise 30 silver pieces is only mentioned in Matthew, and that Judas hanged himself, did nothing unusual AND fell headlong into the field he bought and his guts splashed out.

Once again, anyone in a Christian-filled society will have ended up being exposed to an Easter treat, like "Jesus Christ, Superstar".


Instead of teaching children to fumble around with a thick, boring tome (that WILL cause fights and draw lawsuits to the schools), teach them to operate a search engine and get any holy text they could ever wish to peruse (especially the RELEVANT text, and quickly). Sure beats memorizing that drivel.

[Mona]

Originally posted by evildave

These biblical references are all accessible through on-line searches, footnotes, asking questions, or just getting a "feel" for them, without handing someone a physical copy of the bible of their very own to play "State Funded Gideon" with.

<snip>

Instead of teaching children to fumble around with a thick, boring tome (that WILL cause fights and draw lawsuits to the schools), teach them to operate a search engine and get any holy text they could ever wish to peruse (especially the RELEVANT text, and quickly). Sure beats memorizing that drivel.

Don't you get it? A literate person can read a text and recognize references and allusions without stopping every few minutes to use a search engine. They can employ such images themselves, in their own writing and conversation, to communicate with the rest of the literate world. Not long ago I said to a 20-something person: "Physician, heal thyself" and he had no freakin' clue what I was talking about. (Luke 4:23). Whatever else all that religious training I sufferd as a kid did to me, I do greatly appreciate the reservoir of cultural literacy it endowed on me.

The Bible and Shakespeare are two sources with which a Westerner who wishes to communicate with "intellectuals" about culture and ideas simply must be well familiar. Reading high- and even low-brow fiction implicates familiarity with both.

Additionally, I disagree that the Bible is boring. It is a fascinating collection of many kinds of writing that illuminate the evolution of a people and religion -- several religions, actually. Just because some Xians pound on it and insist on a facile, literal and supernatural understanding of its contents does not mean it cannot be appreciated at "higher" levels.

[I need to review what I f*cking type (or in my case, typo) before I post the first time!]

[Checkmite]

Mona, I still don't see why you won't allow that such study should be made in high school. In elementary and middle school, children are simply too busy learning the parts of speech, proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling. You cannot interject an "oh, by the way, you know the phrase 'thirty pieces of silver' is a biblical reference. Open your Bibles at page...." while you're trying to teach kids about adverbs. Further, the current study of "figures of speech" doesn't happen until high school anyway, nor does the real study of literature. And if you're going to be teaching young children about the cultural relevance of biblical passages, you must first teach them to understand the archaic language presented in King James. It's a waste of time. By high school, they will have developed the skills to understand the language as used in the bible simply through context, without having to be taught anything extra.

Like it or not, there will always be religious intonations when the Bible is involved. You and I can seperate the issues; not everybody can, and many will refuse to. Revert to my first post, and evildave's post above in regards to children being "primed" by Interest Group X into forcing discussions over religion. There are some who will outright reject having to be "issued" a Bible; whether they eventually have to accept one as a textbook or not will not matter - those kids are marked. If taking the Bibles are to be voluntary, it is completely impossible for any teacher to develop and implement any type of cirriculum around it. How can you teach a (secular) Bible study class if only half your kids have the materials?

I contest the notion that understanding of Biblical stories is absolutely "necessary" in a society which alludes to them often. In this day and age, extraterrestrial visitation is alluded to at least as much; yet we don't need to force-feed kids Berlitz or Randle books in order to make sure they "get" the metaphors. It can be said that several classic authors were influenced by the Bible or Christianity; I have yet to read any work by anyone which is incomprehendible without knowledge of similar biblical stories. If one wishes to study classical literature in depth, at the college level, there are courses which directly study the Bible, for that specific purpose.

The public at large will suffer due to the enourmous loss of tax dollars, used not only to supply the books, but to support lawyers in the litigation that is certain to follow. Several organizations will most definitely sue over this issue; for instance, Americans United (of which I am a member). The ACLU is bound to raise an objection as well, spurned by local Christian and other religious groups who object to the type of Bible being introduced, or to the fact that the school is intruding on personal religious matters. That's how it always is.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Since when did it become necessary to know the origins of a word or phrase to understand, or even enjoy, its usage? That idea is preposterous. Any cultural idiom derived from the Bible will continue to be transmitted (as long as it's useful) throughout the culture, whether or not the origin is remembered. Furthermore, many of them are self-explanatory. Even without awareness of the source, I can't imagine a 20-something not being able to figure out the intent of the phrase "Physician, heal thyself." The words and phrases from the Bible are part of the language now, and are acquired just like the rest of the language. Special knowledge of origins is irrelevant.

To illustrate: "children" is a double plural. The original noun "child" was in use at a time when the plural suffix was "-er" so the proper original plural was "childer." Later, the plural suffix shifted to "-en." Some people kept the old plural suffix as they added the new, producing "childeren" which in time became "children." And in some American dialects today, you can find the word "childrens." OK, now you know the origin. Does that shed light on anything? Will it make it easier to understand what someone means the next time they ask how your children are? I didn't think so. Origins are neat things to know, and fun to investigate if one doesn't know them, bt they are far from requisiste knowledge.

Should the Bible be taught (as literature) in public schools? Probably. Is being the source for many figures of speech in the English language a cause for it being taught every school day for 13 years to American students. Hardly.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by elliotfc
Gobs and gobs and gobs of literature, great literature, allude to the Bible, assume a knowledge of the Bible, or deserve to be compared to the Bible. It's the most important book in existence, from a literary standpoint.Sure, but there are other classic works of literature that are on near-equal, if not equal, footing with the Bible in that regard.

Not having a good knowledge of classical literature could be the Achilles' heel of many students of English, but having the Bible taught as literature, especially as literature for all of K-12, would end up being a big Pandora's box.

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by evildave
In short, the Bible (AS WELL AS OTHER WORKS) probably should be studied by mature students with a sincere scholarly goal of understanding its "impact" on American culture, European culture, other cultures, etc.

Well, considering that's almost precisely what I said a few posts back, I don't think we have a disagreement. I was under the impression that you thought the Koran was equally influential on Western literature, which is patently untrue.

[Mona]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Mona, I still don't see why you won't allow that such study should be made in high school. In elementary and middle school, children are simply too busy learning the parts of speech, proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling. .

Sorry, I must not have been clear: I do think high school is about when comparative religion and/or the Bible as literature should be taught. A teacher with a background in religious studies, especially (tho not necessarily) from a secular university well knows how to present this subject academically . Yes, there can be some tension; there was when I was a college student in the major. The fundamentalists and evangelicals were sometimes uncomfortable with approaching their sacred text in so detached a manner. (And not treating the Creation accounts as either only one version, or as literally true.)

Our children live in a world where religion and religious differences continue to cause disruption and even violence. One thing studying religion academically does is to show the similarities of idea, evolution, and very importantly: syncretism. Xianity borrowed from other faiths, a whole lot, as did Islam and Judaism. Understanding religion and how religions grow, their meaning to individuals and cultures, is important and potentially pacifying.

[Mona]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Since when did it become necessary to know the origins of a word or phrase to understand, or even enjoy, its usage? That idea is preposterous. .

Well then, we have opposite ideas of what is preposterous; a well-read person should know the origins and what they mean. I'm a libertarian and frequently read politics at the Reason magazine blog. Recently they headlined a posting "Accountant, Account for Thyself." One needs familiarity with a scriptural admonition to physicians to "get" that. Those who wish to converse with other thinking people greatly benefit from knowing common cultural references and where they originate.

Indeed, without an understanding of the messiah role in Xianity, messianic themes are not likely to be well grasped. Take a novel such as John Irving's A Prayer for Owen Meany . Meany is a Christ figure in that story, and the allusions to Christ are frequent. That is but one example of many persons/events/ideas from the Bible that permeate the body of Western thought and literature.

Sure, someone may glean what it means to ask about "thirty pieces of silver" by context, but without already knowing the story behind it and where it is from, the connection is feeble; the person mostly bereft of such background is, to a great extent, cutlurally deracinated.

When one snarls that an arrogant superior at work issues orders "as if he just descended from Sinai," a literate person infers the accusation that said superior thinks he has the authority of God behind him. Articulate and well-read people just do talk like that often, and they understand such commentary. I'd as soon that the only such people are not the indoctrinated children of religionists.

[evildave]

Whatever happened to plain communication? Does everything have to be allusion and metaphor to be labelled "communication" by some people, or can we simply say, in so many words, what we mean?

If you ever had to deal with BUSINESS or TECHNICAL, even LEGAL communication, you'd notice that it doesn't contain much in the way of metaphors. Being prone to use them is potentially quite a handicap, as you basically make it more likely the reader will not follow the ideas you are trying to present.

No matter how popular a particular work is/was, there are always people unfamilar with it.

Theoretically, if you wanted to work in a geek profession, you'd go watch all the classic Star Trek episodes you could find, so you'd "get" the "He's dead Jim", or "I canna change the laws of physics", or "He's a Red-Shirt". Of course, this doesn't actually add to communication; it only makes you more a part of the clique that uses these quotes and such to identify each-other.

And that's sort of the way I see the KJV study thing: make kids a part of the Christian clique, so they "fit in" more in church.

Perhaps the state should mandate children being shown Star Trek? I'm sure it's as frustrating to the learned individual when he says "Am I my brother's keeper?" in a witty way that draws blank stares as it is for a geek who blurts one of Dr. McCoy's "I'm a doctor, not a ... !" quotes.

And really, what is the difference between a techy geek and a literature geek, but for the focus of their geekiness?

[Marquis de Carabas]

So, in the end, it all comes down to cultural and intellectual snobbery? A lot of people know the Bible, and its influence on our figures of speech, so should we all. Every schoolchild needs 13 years of instruction in the Bible just in case a coworker ever says "as if he just descended from Sinai." Every schoolchild must need 13 years of instruction in the history of the NFL just in case a coworker ever says "trying to get an idea through the boss's skull is like trying to break through the Steel Curtain."

No, no, no. Imagine a guy with no Bible learning sitting in an office who overhears the Sinai comment. Assuming he works for the same boss, and hears the tone of the speaker, he understands the message being conveyed. And if he's curious, he might even ask what descending from Sinai means. Someone will tell him, and that will be that. What's the big deal?

[evildave]

I guess everyone agrees the California Bible thing is basically Jesus Geeks who want to have their cultural influence felt by everyone, so they don't have to feel so "socially isolated" when their Bible quotes fall flat.

A bit like Star Trek geeks who think the state should build a statue of Gene Roddenberry and mandate all school aged children watch the entire original Star Trek TV series every year at school (ONLY the officially sanctioned one, of course, and except, of course, for the kids who have objections to Tribbles: they will have to stand quietly outside in the hall).