Domino's: Our Pizza Sucked

[Foolmewunz]

I read about this, catching up on the news today. Apologies if there's a thread elsewhere on it.

It seems that Dominos listened to their customers and is now admitting that their pizza was, well, pretty horrible.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34812047/ns/business-consumer_news/

updated 5:53 p.m. ET Jan. 11, 2010
CHICAGO - For a pizza joint, it's a bold move to tell customers your crust tasted like cardboard and your sauce was like ketchup.

But that's just what Domino's Pizza Inc. has been saying since last month in untraditional ads about the recipes it abandoned when it launched its reformulated pizza.

As industry observers — and even a late night TV host — scratch their heads, the company's incoming CEO said the chain had no choice but to be honest about its old recipe pizza if it had any hope of winning back customers.

"The old days of trying to spin things simply doesn't work anymore," President Patrick Doyle, who will become CEO in March, told The Associated Press in an interview. "Great brands going forward are going to have a level of honesty and transparency that hasn't been seen before."

Using a documentary style, the TV ads offer glimpses of focus groups and Twitter messages where customers said Domino's pies were even worse than microwave pizza and "totally void of flavor."

These guys have 9000 outlets around the world. SOMEONE must like their pizza! Are they taking a huge risk or is this a brilliant ploy, and they'll do a New Coke / Original Coke routine, bringing back the original blah pizza for those who liked it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH5R56jILag
(can't figure out how to do YT thingy....)

[elbe]

I've never met anyone who liked dominos, but I agree that a lot of people must have to become so prevalent. I'm tempted to go pick up one of their new ones to see how it is, but I haven't worked up the effort yet.

[paiute]

Are they still cooking them by passing them through that conveyor belt oven? If so, it doesn't matter what else they do. The crust will not be properly cooked.

Dominos is popular because it is bland. It and McDonalds survive on the demand of the under-10 crowd, who usually drive the food selections.

It is a relief when the kiddies' taste buds mature and they find out about real oven-cooked pizza.

[Careyp74]

It isn't original to listen to the feedback of customers, and after figuring out the problems and changing them, admitting them isn't that big of a deal either.

I am going to continue making my own pizza, cheaper and healthier by far.

[aggle-rithm]

Domino's was the last stop in my 10-year restaurant career. I was a management trainee there for a month. I can tell you, it is the chintziest operation I have ever seen. They didn't have cash registers, just a money drawer with a key. You had to count all the money at the end of the night by adding machine, but you weren't allowed to use tape to verify keystrokes. Also, the closing manager had to do a full gross profit worksheet (by hand, of course), calculating the food and labor costs to the penny. If it took you a little longer than you thought it might to do this, then you had to start over, because now the labor cost was a little more.

(The usual procedure for a restaurant is to do a stat sheet that gives you a rough estimate of your profitability...what Dominos did was tremendous overkill, but I'm sure it saved them a lot of money on accountants.)

Also, the first time I made a pizza there, I put about a quarter of an ounce of cheese on it and was told, "Whoa, that's WAY too much cheese!"

[Foolmewunz]

It isn't original to listen to the feedback of customers, and after figuring out the problems and changing them, admitting them isn't that big of a deal either.

I am going to continue making my own pizza, cheaper and healthier by far.

Listening to focus groups and consumer feedback is common, of course.

But actually, saying "our product was horrible" is quite original. Companies generally just come out with "New and Improved", or offer different menu options. Like Mickey D and whatever they call their healthy options. Domino's, though, are flat out saying that their pizzas were crap.

[Francesca R]

"The old days of trying to spin things simply doesn't work anymore," President Patrick Doyle, who will become CEO in March, told The Associated Press in an interview. "Great brands going forward are going to have a level of honesty and transparency that hasn't been seen before."Ah. It's a new way to spin things.

Domino's, though, are flat out saying that their pizzas were crap.
This doesn't always work:
We also do cut-glass sherry decanters complete with six glasses on a silver-plated tray that your butler can serve you drinks on, all for £4.95. People say, "How can you sell this for such a low price?", I say, "because it's total crap".
G Ratner, 1991, former CEO of Ratners Group.link (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article2701311.ece)

[Darth Rotor]

We ordered two mediums under the new regime last weekend, with the allegedly improved sauce and crust and such.

My son consumed it like the fuel it is. His comments on taste were terse: nothing special. My wife reported that it sucked, just like Dominoes always does. I ate two slices, with little to tell me something different or special was on my plate, washed down by beer.

It is pizza. The delivery gal was courteous and prompt.

We prefer Fox Pizza and Papa John's. We occasionally going to Papa Murphy's and cook the premades in our oven.

Dominoes had a chance to make an impression, and didn't. So much for that ad campaign recapturing this customer cluster.

The pizza didn't show significant ehough improvement, if any, to warrant us changing our preferences. Or maybe the local franchisee never got the memo/materials that allowed him to comply with the national campaign's new standards.

DR

[Eddie Dane]

I have bad news for Domino's.

Some Chinese family has started a new wok restaurant in my hometown.
For the seven Euro's I usually pay for a fast food meal I can now watch some dude stir-fry fresh vegetables, meat and fish that I personally choose from the bar.
And they are obviously planning to turn it into a chain, great scalable restaurant interior included.

That is a healthy, fresh and tasty meal, for the same price as a McDonald's meal!

I'll be damned if I ever set foot in some fast food hell-hole again. Immigration is a blessing, I tell ya!

ETA: Oh, yeah. My kids are five and two. Let's go get a Happy Meal then.

[madurobob]

Are they still cooking them by passing them through that conveyor belt oven? If so, it doesn't matter what else they do. The crust will not be properly cooked.

Why not? Pizza just needs heat, and lots of it. Why can that heat not occur in an oven where the rack moves slowly through, instead of one where the rack is stationary and humans manually move the pizza in and out?

[Alareth]

I like the new pizza for Domino's.

[tyr_13]

I actually like the new ads. This is far better than the ads I hate, the 'our competitors suck' ad. I remember hating the Quiznos and Papa John ads specifically because all they did was attack Subway and Pizza Hut. Then there are the king of the *******, smug, attack ads, the Mac ads.

Now if Domino's hasn't actually changed their pizza much, then yeah, it's just more spin.

I find the assertion that conveyor ovens cannot properly cook a pizza crust extremely odd.

[Eddie Dane]

I actually like the new ads. This is far better than the ads I hate, the 'our competitors suck' ad. I remember hating the Quiznos and Papa John ads specifically because all they did was attack Subway and Pizza Hut. Then there are the king of the *******, smug, attack ads, the Mac ads.



Hey there must be a difference between the US and Europe in McDonald's ads.
Can you give me an example of their attack ads?

[Wowbagger]

We should encourage this level of honesty (assuming it is honesty*) in commercials!

I, for one, have disliked Domino's pizza for quite some time! (and not merely for political reasons.) And, yet, even I am compelled to try their pizza again!

*Though, I suspect there might still be some subtle trick to this. It almost seems engineered to exploit the recent findings of evolutionary psychology, about how persuasion works in the human brain, etc.
Or, maybe I'm only thinking that way because I am reading Richard Wiseman's new book.

The bottom line is that I am willing to try their pizza, again. So, that's that.

[ToddH]

My family tried the new pizza last weekend. The sauce seemed a little spicier and the crust wasn't as bad as it used to be. Still, I wasn't impressed. I guess eating real pizza at places with a nice brick oven has turned me against pizza chains for good.

[Almo]

Domino's was the last stop in my 10-year restaurant career. I was a management trainee there for a month. I can tell you, it is the chintziest operation I have ever seen. They didn't have cash registers, just a money drawer with a key. You had to count all the money at the end of the night by adding machine, but you weren't allowed to use tape to verify keystrokes. Also, the closing manager had to do a full gross profit worksheet (by hand, of course), calculating the food and labor costs to the penny. If it took you a little longer than you thought it might to do this, then you had to start over, because now the labor cost was a little more.

(The usual procedure for a restaurant is to do a stat sheet that gives you a rough estimate of your profitability...what Dominos did was tremendous overkill, but I'm sure it saved them a lot of money on accountants.)

Also, the first time I made a pizza there, I put about a quarter of an ounce of cheese on it and was told, "Whoa, that's WAY too much cheese!"

Many Domino's shops are franchise operations. You might have just had a bad one.

I like the new pizza, personally. I think it's an improvement.

[Tamarillicent]

To be honest, Dominos could serve the greatest pizza known to mankind but until they fire the idiots who work in our local and hire people who have half a brain, my family won't try it.

Last time I ordered from them it took over an hour to get to our house and they were missing half of it. The store is only a 10 minute walk away. That was only the last straw. I won't bore you with the others.

We order from Papa Johns now. It's about a 20 minute drive away but the pizza tastes better, they don't screw up our order, and it still arrives faster.

[tyr_13]

Hey there must be a difference between the US and Europe in McDonald's ads.
Can you give me an example of their attack ads?


Sorry, I meant Mac as in Apple ads. Not the Ipod ones of course, they actually are about using their product. See the extraordinarily dishonest 'hi, I'm a Mac' ads where Apple basically attacks a straw PC, and even then has to almost outright lie about some things. Oh, your laptops have webcams in them? Well, I guess PCs don't, oh wait, they did it first! Oh, you have the thinnest laptop? Wait, you only have the thinnest that was currently in production. I should stop, I really don't want to turn this into a Mac vs PC derail. Mac products in general, besides the Ipod and older Imacs, are actually very good. It's the marketing I have a problem with.


We should encourage this level of honesty (assuming it is honesty*) in commercials!

I, for one, have disliked Domino's pizza for quite some time! (and not merely for political reasons.) And, yet, even I am compelled to try their pizza again!

*Though, I suspect there might still be some subtle trick to this. It almost seems engineered to exploit the recent findings of evolutionary psychology, about how persuasion works in the human brain, etc.
Or, maybe I'm only thinking that way because I am reading Richard Wiseman's new book.

The bottom line is that I am willing to try their pizza, again. So, that's that.


I second this entire post.

[Quinn]

I had one of their "new" pizzas before I was aware of the overhaul (and corresponding ad campaign). I thought it was the worst pizza I'd ever had from Domino's. The crust had the texture and flavor of a bath sponge. Ironically, I never had complaints about their pizza before; it wasn't my favorite by a long shot, but was all right for a cheap, convenient delivery chain. But if the one I had is representative of their new product, I'll be avoiding it in the future.

[cornsail]

Dominos: "our pizza sucks, but now we're uh... adding more herbs to the sauce!"

[madurobob]

We order from Papa Johns now. It's about a 20 minute drive away but the pizza tastes better, they don't screw up our order, and it still arrives faster.

There are maybe 30 pizza places in my city, and only a handful I actually like. Dominoes and Papa Johns are both at the bottom of the list for me. When I want really good pizza - I make it myself. Its very easy and faster than delivery if you plan ahead.

I generally make my own dough for the crust, but one secret is that many independent pizza places will sell you a ball of dough for just a few dollars and you can keep it in the refrigerator for a couple of days. Find one that makes an excellent crust, and just buy their dough for the fridge and have it ready anytime you want pizza. You'll be able to make an excellent pizza faster than a mediocre one can be delivered. Commercial pizza ovens cook at around 750F while typical residential ovens max out at 500F, so the dough you bring home won't make the exact same crust, but it's still good (and better than Dominoes/Papa Johns/Pizza Hut).

[commandlinegamer]

I thought you had real Italian restaurants in the US? Why not try one of those?

[madurobob]

I thought you had real Italian restaurants in the US? Why not try one of those?

Don't be silly. Real pizza is not Italian, it comes from NYC. ;)

[pgwenthold]

There are maybe 30 pizza places in my city, and only a handful I actually like. Dominoes and Papa Johns are both at the bottom of the list for me.



I guess this is the thing I don't quite understand. I've had Dominos, and I've had Papa Johns. I might agree that I prefer Papa Johns, but jeez, I have to say that the difference isn't THAT big where I would call it an "obvious" choice. I mean, sometimes I go to places that aren't always the best but will do it for cost/convenience or even just a change of pace.

If Papa Johns is the best pizza in your area, then you have a lot bigger problems than deciding whether Dominos' new sauce is going to make a difference.

[Denver]

Dominos: "our pizza sucks, but now we're uh... adding more herbs to the sauce!"

That was more or less the Colbert Report's take on this as well. (At 10:35) (http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/wed-january-6-2010-charles-moore)

[madurobob]

That was more or less the Colbert Report's take on this as well. (At 10:35) (http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/wed-january-6-2010-charles-moore)

My first thought when I saw that the other night was "damn, I bet Domino's paid a ****load of cash for that!"

[paiute]

Why not? Pizza just needs heat, and lots of it. Why can that heat not occur in an oven where the rack moves slowly through, instead of one where the rack is stationary and humans manually move the pizza in and out?

The thermal conductivity of air is 0.025 W/(m·K). That of stone is about 1.7. Think of it this way: you can put your hand in a 450 degree oven for a few seconds without too much discomfort. You can't put your hand on a 450 degree pizza stone for that long. The rate of heat transfer into your skin would be way to much to bear.

A pizza in a conveyor belt oven cooks through evenly, no doubt, but the best pizzas and the best breads are not cooked through evenly.

[Beerina]

Dominos is popular because it is bland.

This. That their ads show complaint letters, including "Your sauce tastes like ketchup" doesn't say much since that's the intent. Young people live on ketchup on everything except for things they dunk in ranch dressing, of course. :rolleyes:

I'd rather have the sales of Chef Boyardee and Franco American's Spaghetti O's than of all the Thai restaurants in the world.

[roger]

I thought you had real Italian restaurants in the US? Why not try one of those?
Price.

My company, when I still worked in the office, would often host lunch type meetings. If trying to be nice they'd bring in catered sandwiches or such, but for lower cost it was always dominos. You could order a ton of pizzas at the last moment, get them reasonably quickly along with sodas and such, and pay $6 or something per pizza. The same order from a family restaurant would probably cost 3 times as much, you'd have to go out and get your own sodas, etc. You can order online, you don't have to go searching through a phone book trying to guess which joint to order from, etc.

Of course you are talking about individuals buying the pizza, not businesses, but the economics and conveniences are about the same.

Then there is the whole brand thing, which is probably what you are referencing. People will order what they know, and how can you not know Dominos? Even if a family restaurant did serve better pizza for the same price, they just wouldn't get the orders. That's sad, but true.

I never found Dominos to be "bad" - as in you end up with a nasty flavor (or gristle or something) in your mouth that you have to spit out. It's what another person called it - fuel. If you want to stuff a bunch of carbs and fat into your pie hole as cheaply as possible, Dominos fits the bill.

[Ladewig]

Are they still cooking them by passing them through that conveyor belt oven? If so, it doesn't matter what else they do. The crust will not be properly cooked.


Can you explain why to someone who has no understanding of cooking?

[NYCEMT86]

Don't be silly. Real pizza is not Italian, it comes from NYC. ;)

Damn straight...haha :D


I have never been a fan of these assembly line food chains, whether it be burgers or pizza. Domino's is one of the many chains that just adds gimmicks to their pizza rather than taste.

[tyr_13]

'Doesn't use the absolute best method' != 'bad'

Hell, it doesn't even equal 'improperly cooked'.

[madurobob]

The thermal conductivity of air is 0.025 W/(m·K). That of stone is about 1.7. Think of it this way: you can put your hand in a 450 degree oven for a few seconds without too much discomfort. You can't put your hand on a 450 degree pizza stone for that long. The rate of heat transfer into your skin would be way to much to bear.

A pizza in a conveyor belt oven cooks through evenly, no doubt, but the best pizzas and the best breads are not cooked through evenly.

But there is air in the brick oven, too. Just about as much, I imagine. Its not like they pile 800 degree bricks on top of the pizza. So, the pocket of air surrounding the cooking pizza in either oven is more or less the same, isn't it?

[Denver]

Price.

I never found Dominos to be "bad" - as in you end up with a nasty flavor (or gristle or something) in your mouth that you have to spit out. It's what another person called it - fuel. If you want to stuff a bunch of carbs and fat into your pie hole as cheaply as possible, Dominos fits the bill.

Also, if you're like me, and order a couple pizzas to watch a movie or the 'game', I will maybe notice the first couple bites of the pizza, but after that, it just disappears, as my attention swings more to the tv, or to the conversation, or the beer, than to the food . This kind of pizza experience becomes more of a filler, and isn't worth paying a lot for (the cost-per-yum is very high, since I will have few yum-moments).

But for a more focused dinner experience, yeah, I'd make my own, or go for something more high-end, yum-wise.

[pgwenthold]

Then there is the whole brand thing, which is probably what you are referencing. People will order what they know, and how can you not know Dominos?

This is huge. I mean, the original question must have been made without much thought.

People don't always buy the "best." Look at McDonalds. One of the most successful franchises of all time. Do they have the best hamburgers in the world? Not hardly. Shoot, people in the know will tell you, McDonald's doesn't come close to winning things like "taste tests" even among the fast food places. BK's burgers absolutely come out ahead of McDs in taste test. Yet, McDs is a lot more popular.

It's not all about taste. In fact, I'd suggest that very little of it is.

[paiute]

But there is air in the brick oven, too. Just about as much, I imagine. Its not like they pile 800 degree bricks on top of the pizza. So, the pocket of air surrounding the cooking pizza in either oven is more or less the same, isn't it?

See my analogy of the hand. It is all about how fast the heat can get into the crust. No bricks need to go on top of the pizza. You want the top to be gooey and stringy and moist and delicious. You want the bottom to be crunchy and chewy and dry and delicious. You don't get that kind of uneven heat transfer from surrounding air.

[KingMerv00]

They make pizza? I only ever ate their cheesy bread.

[Safe-Keeper]

The research project has finally ended, and now Domino's is becoming a real pizza chain again.

You must've missed the ONN broadcast:
31JNEVHZxO8

[madurobob]

See my analogy of the hand. It is all about how fast the heat can get into the crust. No bricks need to go on top of the pizza. You want the top to be gooey and stringy and moist and delicious. You want the bottom to be crunchy and chewy and dry and delicious. You don't get that kind of uneven heat transfer from surrounding air.

I'm still not getting it. Both ovens there is a similarly sized pocket of 800 degree (or so) air that moves primarily via convection. Its the air that cooks the pizza. How does having bricks surround the air pocket in one case, and steel in the other case make any meaningful difference?

ETA: see, that's where your hand analogy breaks down for me. I don't think there will be any difference in sticking my hand in a 450F steel enclosed conveyor belt oven compared to a 450F brick oven. Its still 450F air either way. I don't touch bricks and I don't touch steel; just air.

[Locknar]

Dominoes had a chance to make an impression, and didn't. So much for that ad campaign recapturing this customer cluster.

The pizza didn't show significant ehough improvement, if any, to warrant us changing our preferences. My impression exactly.

We tried the "improved" and well...I have to be honest in that I have no clue what was in fact improved; certianly nothing to warrent trying again.

We'll stick with Ledo's & Ma'ma Lucia (two locals), Papa John's & Pizza Hut; that is when we don't make our own.

[Praktik]

Ah. It's a new way to spin things.

Well, perhaps a small twist on an old way to spin things. Thomas Frank, in his excellent The Conquest of Cool, explores the development of advertising approaches through the 60s and one of the campaigns he highlights for innovation was Volkswagen, which really broke new ground trying the "honesty" angle. (really good companion book to Mad Men IMO).

Most car ads at that time were replete with fancy words for new features, describing their cars as the greatest innovators of all time, etc... Each model would highlight the way in which it was different and improved over the previous year's model.

Volkswagen had an ad that basically showed a bunch of identical Beetles over a 5-year period, and underneath each one the year of the model: emphasizing that their product doesn't change every year, that it just "works" and that you can rely on it being the same proven vehicle every year.

Then there's this one, showing one of their cars with the word "lemon" underneath. (http://www.nmauk.co.uk/nma/uploads/7347/highres/volkswagen_lemon_hires.jpg) No other car manufacturer would be that ballsy...

In any event, honesty in advertising like Dominoe's is nothing new, and is a proven strategy. Publics have been proven to respond positively to advertisements like that since it gives the viewer the feeling that they're behind the veil that companies put around their products in advertisements, that the company is "levelling with them".

Smart strategy I think..;)

[pgwenthold]

I'm still not getting it. Both ovens there is a similarly sized pocket of 800 degree (or so) air that moves primarily via convection. Its the air that cooks the pizza. How does having bricks surround the air pocket in one case, and steel in the other case make any meaningful difference?

Honestly? Because over years, bricks absorb evaporates from the baking, which diffuse over time, putting them back into the environment. Adsorption capabilities of stainless are pretty nil.

That's the real issue.

[Lothian]

I'm still not getting it. Both ovens there is a similarly sized pocket of 800 degree (or so) air that moves primarily via convection. Its the air that cooks the pizza. How does having bricks surround the air pocket in one case, and steel in the other case make any meaningful difference?

ETA: see, that's where your hand analogy breaks down for me. I don't think there will be any difference in sticking my hand in a 450F steel enclosed conveyor belt oven compared to a 450F brick oven. Its still 450F air either way. I don't touch bricks and I don't touch steel; just air.Never mind brick / converor belt. Real Pizza should be deep fried (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-fried_pizza)as you would know if you had been to a traditional Glasgow chippie.

[whatthebutlersaw]

You can get Domino's in the UK, but I have never tried it - the local mom and pop kebab place makes a decent pizza, delivers it as fast as can be expected in Britain (i.e within an hour, which belive me is a feat here - on the other hand, back in Sweden you couldn't get stuff delivered so to me it's still an improvement). For the few times per year we get pizza delivered, that's sufficient.

I understand that Tom Monaghan no longer owns Domino's and therefore none of the profits go to pro-life ******** anymore. So by the time I was actually in the position to choose to avoid their crap, it was no longer necessary. So go ahead. Not that anyone ever wants my blessing, but I'll give it to you anyway.

But Body Shop are still evil.

[Aoidoi]

The ads mostly amused me in the sense that they're implying rather strongly that everyone who like the old pizza had no taste. Which seems like an interesting move, marketing wise.

I really disliked their pizza in college, and once Papa John's moved in we always ordered from them instead. I don't think I've had Domino's since, so no real opinion on their actual quality currently.

The marketing drones usually argue that the point of marketing is to get people to talk about your product, so they've succeeded there. On the other hand, making your product a laughingstock does seem... unwise.

[Drudgewire]

We ordered at work yesterday. It has a bit more of a garlicy taste, which isn't a bad thing.

It still tastes like fast-food pizza, but is a little better than before. No complaints here.

[Ambrosia]

A pizza in a conveyor belt oven cooks through evenly, no doubt, but the best pizzas and the best breads are not cooked through evenly.

Are you sure about that?

If by "uneven" you mean that the base that's in contact gets heated via a different method of heat transfer than the rest then that's not really uneven, and pizza sat on a metal tray winding through a conveyer oven gets the same treatment.

Dominoes, along with every other other fast food chain I have tried produce bland insipid cheap food that fills a hole. I won't be rushing out to try the new recipe.

[Wowbagger]

The ads mostly amused me in the sense that they're implying rather strongly that everyone who like the old pizza had no taste. Which seems like an interesting move, marketing wise.Few people ate at Domino's because they "liked it". Most of them ate Domino's because it was convenient and inexpensive.

You (hopefully) never heard anyone say "It's a special occasion! Let's order a nice, big pie from Domino's!" (If anyone thought that way, it was probably because they didn't know any better.)

You more often heard: "Gosh, we're running late! I guess we better grab something from the closest pizza place we can."

The move was, perhaps, a little interesting. But, not much.

[Lurker]

My first job was at Domino's. Later on I worked for a local pizza place. Some quick observations:

1. At Dominos, I ate their pizza pretty much every day I worked (4-5 days a week) cause I got it free and I was poor. Over the course of a year and a half, I grew to loath topping after topping until all I could stomach was the cheese pizza or sausage/jalapeno (I guess it burned the taste buds enough). After I left their employ, I did not eat Dominos again for a period of 12 years whereupon I learned that I could again stomach their pizza but agreed it was bottom of the barrel pizza.

2. Oven versus conveyer belt. During my tenure at Dominos we used both. The conveyer belt was faster but prone to large bubbles forming on the crust which we had to pop as it cooked lest the pizza's appearance be despoiled. The pizza came out of the conveyer belt fully cooked but lacked the crispness I prefer in my crust. So I prefer the oven. I think most Dominos eventually switched over to the oven so I was not alone in my assessment. The metal grill that the pizza sat on probably did not trasfer too much heat so most of hte cooking was done by convection so the pizza had the same heat transfer all around. The oven has a higher heat transfer where it contacts the pizza versus the air so that allows the crust to fully cook while not burning the top. When I cook pizza at home, not having a brick or stone over, I put the crust in for a few minutes before I top the pizza and put it back in the oven. That way I get a crisper crust.

3. Double cheese is really not double the cheese. Essentially they sprinkle on about 33% more cheese when you order "double cheese" but they put the cheese on last so it looks like more as it covers up the toppings. I remember someone used to order triple cheese and I tried it on a pizza I made and it was just too much cheese.

4. I worked at "Slice of New York" in downtown Mpls later and they had much higher quality pizza versus Dominos although it was still not great. For me, quality pizza starts with good sauce, crisp crust and quality toppings. Finding good sausage for pizza is almost impossible IMO.

5. I think Domino's new ad campaign is less about actual change and more about being noticed. Publicity. Then again, I have not tried the "new" pizza.

[MusicMan]

I think I preferred the old Domino's pizza. I had one of their new ones a few days ago, and it just didn't taste right. I'm definitely going to try again to make sure. I order from Domino's because the ones around here seem to be on the ball. It rarely takes more than 30 minutes for the delivery person to arrive, and I've never had a screwed-up order. (Of course, it's hard to screw up basic pepperoni!)

My favorite "fast food" pizza is Pizza Hut. But the service & delivery times at the Pizza Huts around here are absolutely terrible.

[KingMerv00]

I'm still not getting it. Both ovens there is a similarly sized pocket of 800 degree (or so) air that moves primarily via convection. Its the air that cooks the pizza. How does having bricks surround the air pocket in one case, and steel in the other case make any meaningful difference?

ETA: see, that's where your hand analogy breaks down for me. I don't think there will be any difference in sticking my hand in a 450F steel enclosed conveyor belt oven compared to a 450F brick oven. Its still 450F air either way. I don't touch bricks and I don't touch steel; just air.

Aren't the belts in conveyor ovens generally made thin wires? The floor of a brick oven of is made of a solid slab of stone so it can transfer more heat to the bottom of the pizza. In other words, non-conveyor ovens use more conduction than conveyor ovens do.

[Lurker]

Aren't the belts in conveyor ovens generally made thin wires? The floor of a brick oven of is made of a solid slab of stone so it can transfer more heat to the bottom of the pizza. In other words, non-conveyor ovens use more conduction than conveyor ovens do.

Quite right. The conveyers are relatively thin wire so I doubt too much conductive heat transfer is ocurring and instead it cooks primarily by convection.

For Madurobob, stick your hand in the 450F oven or stick it in the 450F oven and place it on the stone where the pizza would rest. BIG difference. The latter will probably require a trip to the hospital.

[leon_heller]

The first time I ever heard of pizza was when I read Herman Wouk's superb novel The Caine Mutiny when I was about 12 years old; it must have been about 1954. The main character, Willy Keith, and his Italian-American girlfriend order one in an NY restaurant, and she remarks that her mother made better ones. I think that the pizza came from Sicily, and was invented to use up the dough that would otherwise be wasted.

It was many years before I actually tasted one, though.

Leon

[HarryKeogh]

Few people ate at Domino's because they "liked it". Most of them ate Domino's because it was convenient and inexpensive.

Or they were drunk. That's pretty much the only time I'll eat it.

Anyway, glad I live in NYC where there are plenty of mom and pop joints that employ the finest Mexican pizza chefs in the world.

[Ambrosia]

The conveyer ovens I have seen in use had steel or aluminium trays attached to the wires that the pizzas sat in, but anyway.

The reason that you'll give yourself serious burns if you put your hand onto a pizza stone is because the stone is way hotter that 450F or whatever the oven is set at, as well as being a more efficient heat transfer.

Proper deck bakery ovens have stones top and bottom that are in direct contact with the heating elements, and the temperature regulator measures the AIR temp. In order to heat the air to 450 the stones are a lot hotter than 450 (how hot depends on a number of other variables)

To bake crusty bread, which is basically what the underside of a pizza base is, you want temps closer to 250 - 260 C. (which is about 500 in old money)

[patchbunny]

Gotta go against the grain here. I've had Domino's pizza before, and never understood the pure hatred people have for it. It's pizza, like most any other that I've had.

I worked one summer for Domino's as a delivery driver. We used ovens for our pizza and didn't skimp on toppings, though my boss didn't allow us to make crew pies - if we wanted a pizza, we had to buy one. So on weekend afternoons you'd see Domino's employees wandering over to Burger King for lunch as it's cheaper than ordering a pizza.

My pet peeve with pizzas these days is everyone's doing thin crust pizzas, and I hate thin crust. I prefer a thicker, doughy crust, which I believe is a sicilian style. Little Ceasar's used to make the best ones, but switched gears years ago and makes the same pies everyone else does. :(

[Careyp74]

I'm still not getting it. Both ovens there is a similarly sized pocket of 800 degree (or so) air that moves primarily via convection. Its the air that cooks the pizza. How does having bricks surround the air pocket in one case, and steel in the other case make any meaningful difference?

ETA: see, that's where your hand analogy breaks down for me. I don't think there will be any difference in sticking my hand in a 450F steel enclosed conveyor belt oven compared to a 450F brick oven. Its still 450F air either way. I don't touch bricks and I don't touch steel; just air.

The pizza lays ON TOP of the flat stone, which is as hot as the oven, and cooks rapidly from the heat of the stone.

Domino's is more of a toaster oven effect.

They make pizza? I only ever ate their cheesy bread.

interesting that they call the other product they make, which closely resembles the first, bread, and not crust.

[roger]

My pet peeve with pizzas these days is everyone's doing thin crust pizzas, and I hate thin crust. Because you are wrong (http://www.2amyspizza.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=about.phylosophy). :p

[JimBenArm]

I am not all that picky when it comes to pizza. Domino's, while not at the top of my list, was ahead of Pizza Hut (who used to be #1, but has become barely edible over the last 30 years) and Papa John's. Our favorites are Northern Lights (a small, midwest chain) and a local place called Minsky's. Papa Murphy's is in the rotation as well.
I haven't tried the new pizza yet, though. Maybe this weekend, while watching the NFL Playoffs. If I can convince my Brother-In-Law, who is more picky about his food than a 4-year-old!

[JAStewart]

Pizza Hut > Dominos, easily.

[Francesca R]

In any event, honesty in advertising like Dominoe's is nothing new, [ . . . ]No. I mean it's been spun as a new way to spin things.

(Of course in Ratner's case it was a new way to utterly bollocks up your business, and he remains a lecture example in Management Sciences Nursery)

[jnelso99]

I generally have a conundrum with Domino's - Their pizza doesn't thrill me, but I LOVE their hot buffalo wings. And ordering just wings is not enough for their minimum delivery requirements, so I have to get a pizza as well.

Did the nutjob owner of Domino's ever found that city in Florida, the one around the Catholic university? I remember hearing about it a few years ago, that he was going to build a city whose laws would be based on Catholic dogma or something like that. Not sure how we would get away with that.

[Lurker]

I worked one summer for Domino's as a delivery driver. We used ovens for our pizza and didn't skimp on toppings, though my boss didn't allow us to make crew pies - if we wanted a pizza, we had to buy one.
Our boss tried to do away with crew pies but a rash of misordered pizzas seemed to cure him of that notion. :)

[madurobob]

Aren't the belts in conveyor ovens generally made thin wires? The floor of a brick oven of is made of a solid slab of stone so it can transfer more heat to the bottom of the pizza. In other words, non-conveyor ovens use more conduction than conveyor ovens do.

Oooooooohhhhhhh... its not the brick oven, per se, its what the pizza pan sits on! So, we're agreed that if the conveyor oven used pre-heated pizza stones that the results would be more or less the same, right?

So, the statement that Dominoes will always suck as long as they use a conveyor oven is not quite true. The truth is they need to come up with a way to better finish the crust in the conveyor oven. Some combination of better pans, better dough recipe, etc..

And, yes, I use a stone at home for just this reason - it makes a nicer crust. But, I don't believe the pizza would be any better if the entire oven were brick.

[paiute]

I'm still not getting it. Both ovens there is a similarly sized pocket of 800 degree (or so) air that moves primarily via convection. Its the air that cooks the pizza. How does having bricks surround the air pocket in one case, and steel in the other case make any meaningful difference?

ETA: see, that's where your hand analogy breaks down for me. I don't think there will be any difference in sticking my hand in a 450F steel enclosed conveyor belt oven compared to a 450F brick oven. Its still 450F air either way. I don't touch bricks and I don't touch steel; just air.

In a brick oven set to 450 degrees the dough is in contact on its bottom with stone kept at 450 degrees by energy put into the system by gas or wood or electricity. On top, the dough is in contact only with air at 450 degrees. Thermal transfer into the bottom of the dough is faster. Air is an insulator, stone is not.

The conveyor belt system used by Domino's (last time I saw one in action) is not solid on the bottom. It is kind of a metal mesh which allows the bottom to be cooked by heat conducted into the dough by hot air.

You would not want to cook a pizza on a hot metal surface. The rate of heat transfer would be too fast, as metal has too high a thermal conductivity. So even the pizza ovens you see in the corner shops have stone shelves inside:

http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/pizza-supplies/pizza-deck-ovens/c3655.aspx?gclid=CNHYtsi7n58CFdA65QodnV5BRQ

"Traditional pizzerias use a wood-fired brick oven to create the most authentic tasting pizza. One of the most critical components of these ovens is the stone hearth which leaves a slight char on the crust. Pizza parlors that do not have the space or ability to create a brick oven but still want to offer then genuine flavor opt instead for a deck oven. Pizza deck ovens mix modern and old world technology to create the authentic pizza flavor without the operator having to spend time tending the oven itself. The most important piece of old world technology used is the stone shelf, or deck. The stones heat up the same as in wood-fired oven, so they will still produce the same charred crust. "

[Rasmus]

Never mind brick / converor belt. Real Pizza should be deep fried (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-fried_pizza)as you would know if you had been to a traditional Glasgow chippie.

I know. But until the rest of the world finally catches on or until I get a chance to return, I'll have to live with the lousy excuse of a badly parodied imitation that the aforementioned rest of the world is selling in lieu of real food.

And THAT is the sign of a true Scotsman. (If I may so, as a humble foreigner ...)

[joobz]

my experience with chain pizza places is that it's entirely franchise Dependant.
On the whole, I like Papa John's better than Domino's. But where my house is now, the Papa John's place is terrible. They're slow, screw up orders, and the pizza doesn't ever taste "right".

On the other hand, our Domino's franchise is actually good. With the new pizza, it's even better. I'm happy with the change.

[Darth Rotor]

I think that the pizza came from Sicily, and was invented to use up the dough that would otherwise be wasted.
Naples. ;) While it is possible that pizza was developed somewhere else, once the tomato was introduced from the New World, Naples Italy has some claim to inventing pizza as we know it today, to include the infamous Pizza Margherita.

http://verapizzanapoletana.org/vpn_frames-index.htm

Wikipedia summary.
Main article: History of pizza
The Ancient Greeks covered their bread with oils, herbs, and cheese. The Romans developed placenta, a sheet of flour topped with cheese and honey and flavored with bay leaves. Modern pizza originated in Italy as the Neapolitan pie with tomato. In 1889 cheese was added.[1] King Ferdinand I (1751–1825) is said to have disguised himself as a commoner and, in clandestine fashion, visited a poor neighborhood in Naples. One story has it that he wanted to sink his teeth into a food that the queen had banned from the royal court—pizza.[2]References at the wiki site:

1. "American Pie". American Heritage. April/May 2006. http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/2006/2/2006_2_30.shtml. Retrieved 2009-07-04.
"Cheese, the crowning ingredient, was not added until 1889, when the Royal Palace commissioned the Neapolitan pizzaiolo Raffaele Esposito to create a pizza in honor of the visiting Queen Margherita. Of the three contenders he created, the Queen strongly preferred a pie swathed in the colors of the Italian flag: red (tomato), green (basil), and white (mozzarella)."

The above bit of pizza lore remains unchanged from when I first learned it during my first port visit to Naples, Italy, 1979.

2. A Penchant for Pizza

[KingMerv00]

Oooooooohhhhhhh... its not the brick oven, per se, its what the pizza pan sits on! So, we're agreed that if the conveyor oven used pre-heated pizza stones that the results would be more or less the same, right?

I guess. I didn't make the claim that brick oven pizza tasted better, someone else did. I was just being nerdy and discussing the thermodynamics involved. :D

[steve s]

... because the stone is way hotter that 450F or whatever the oven is set at,


No it's not. It's just better at conducting heat.

Steve S.

[aggle-rithm]

In a brick oven set to 450 degrees the dough is in contact on its bottom with stone kept at 450 degrees by energy put into the system by gas or wood or electricity. On top, the dough is in contact only with air at 450 degrees. Thermal transfer into the bottom of the dough is faster. Air is an insulator, stone is not.

The conveyor belt system used by Domino's (last time I saw one in action) is not solid on the bottom. It is kind of a metal mesh which allows the bottom to be cooked by heat conducted into the dough by hot air.

You would not want to cook a pizza on a hot metal surface. The rate of heat transfer would be too fast, as metal has too high a thermal conductivity. So even the pizza ovens you see in the corner shops have stone shelves inside:

http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/pizza-supplies/pizza-deck-ovens/c3655.aspx?gclid=CNHYtsi7n58CFdA65QodnV5BRQ

"Traditional pizzerias use a wood-fired brick oven to create the most authentic tasting pizza. One of the most critical components of these ovens is the stone hearth which leaves a slight char on the crust. Pizza parlors that do not have the space or ability to create a brick oven but still want to offer then genuine flavor opt instead for a deck oven. Pizza deck ovens mix modern and old world technology to create the authentic pizza flavor without the operator having to spend time tending the oven itself. The most important piece of old world technology used is the stone shelf, or deck. The stones heat up the same as in wood-fired oven, so they will still produce the same charred crust. "

The main issue with conveyer-belt ovens is that all pizzas must be designed to have the same cooking time. I worked at one place where the cooking times varied based on what type of crust was used and how many ingredients were included. It could take as little as 5 minutes and as long as 30. Times varied also based on how many pizzas were cooking and how often the oven doors were opened.

Obviously, a great deal of expertise was required to make sure pizzas didn't burn or were overcooked. There was unfortunately no objective standard (such as a picture of a properly cooked pizza) to help us do this.

[roger]

No it's not. It's just better at conducting heat.

Steve S.
Sure it is, if it is what is heating the air. For example, if I heat an oven with an open flame, that open flame is far hotter than the 450 degree air. The heating element is hotter than what it is heating - it has to be, if there is any heat loss.

[aggle-rithm]

I didn't make the claim that brick oven pizza tasted better, someone else did.

Regardless of whether it does or not, I now have a serious craving for a brick oven pizza.

[Retrograde]

We used to eat a lot of Domino's pizzas back when it was still a mostly (if not entirely) a Michigan thing. Why? It was cheap, they delivered to the dorms, and it was better than L'il Caesar's. But this was forty years ago, and I haven't had them since. When I do order one these days it's from a local place that does a credible New York style pie.

The best pizza I recall came from a hole-in-the-wall place on the outskirts of Phoenix that I doubt I'll ever be able to find again. The worst was the vaunted Pepe's in New Haven: crust burnt in some places, still raw in others, with boiling-hot tomato sauce slopped on it.

[Ravynn123]

I like Dominoes, especially their pasta bowls. I don't eat their pizza to often.

[pgwenthold]

We used to eat a lot of Domino's pizzas back when it was still a mostly (if not entirely) a Michigan thing. Why? It was cheap, they delivered to the dorms, and it was better than L'il Caesar's.

Dominos also showed up in less than 1/2 hour. That was handy.

[Echoes]

2c: Domino's, like all chain pizzas, is gross and I find myself unaffected by their marketing scheme here. The pizza will almost certainly still be garbage. I do appreciate their honesty, although I question the motive.

[Tamarillicent]

Don't be silly. Real pizza is not Italian, it comes from NYC. ;)

I've lived in NYC now for 10 years and I've found ONE place that has pizza that I actually, genuinely like. If someone can point me towards the awesome NYC pizza everyone keeps talking about, I'm there!

The best pizza (my favorite pizza) comes from a place in Massachuestts. It's one of those independent types. Pizza like you won't find anyplace else! I miss it terribly. Greezy as all heck, nice garlicy sauce, and lots of cheese. Can't forget the greek salad, gotta have it with a greek salad. Don't know why you just do.

I love making my own pizza. Got a pizza stone and everything. I always seem to wind up with a crust that is too thick and bready though. Anyone have a good pizza crust recipe? Can we turn this into a recipe swap? :D

[BenBurch]

I'll stick with Chicago Pizza Authority where they make real pizza.

[madurobob]

I love making my own pizza. Got a pizza stone and everything. I always seem to wind up with a crust that is too thick and bready though. Anyone have a good pizza crust recipe? Can we turn this into a recipe swap? :D

Because of this thread, i have dough in process right now :)

Here is the secret: I mentioned before the temperature differences between commercial pizza ovens and residential ovens. Because of this, you can't use a commercial recipe and get the same results. To get the same/similar crust results at home you need to start with a low protein/low gluten flour. I find pastry flour to be perfect. Also, cook it at the highest temp your oven can achieve. On a pre-heated, but not yet oven-temp stone.

I generally do: 4 cups of patry flour, one cup of whole wheat flour, 2 teaspoons rapid rise yeast, 3 tablespoons olive oil, 1 2/3 cup water, tablespoon or so of salt, and a little chopped fresh rosemary.

I knead it myself sometimes, but often just dump it into the bread machine for kneading/rising.

ETA: godofpie runs a pizza shop. If we're lucky he'll chime in.

[Number Six]

This thread makes me want to eat Dominos pizza a lot more than their TV commercials do.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Yeah, I'm almost craving pizza now, even though I know I can't afford it.

[tyr_13]

Yeah, I'm almost craving pizza now, even though I know I can't afford it.

You can't afford Domino's? Ouch.

[Ziggurat]

I'm still not getting it. Both ovens there is a similarly sized pocket of 800 degree (or so) air that moves primarily via convection. Its the air that cooks the pizza.

Not in a brick oven. Heat conduction through direct contact with the brick under the pizza heats the crust faster than the hot air above the pizza cooks the top.

[Foolmewunz]

This thread makes me want to eat Dominos pizza a lot more than their TV commercials do.

I should confess, having started this thread, that I've never had a Domino's pizza in the US. I spent most of my adulthood in the NYC area, and t'ain't no one in their right mind in NYC buying a Domino's pizza. 30 minutes? Christ, you have to eat it right out of the oven so that you remove a layer of skin from the roof of your mouth with the first bite!

The only one time I tasted a Domino's pie was here in Hong Kong and I just put the crapola taste down to the fact that Asia hasn't really figured out the pizza thing, yet. (Tuna, Pineapple, Corn, Chicken, and Barbecue Sauce on one pie - with some Five Spice Powder; say no more.)

I was just curious as to how the public was taking to the campaign. It's obviously a spin job. They could've quietly improved the recipes and ingredients with minimal fanfare, but they're running these four and a half minute infomercials and really milking it.

Implicit in the campaign, to me at any rate, is that the guy doing most of the talking seems to be an old hand at Domino's. It's not like they brought in the COO from Shakey's(whatever happened to Shakey's?) and he's now going to show all the old Domino's guys how to do it right. He's a Domino's guy, and he's saying "we were selling you sub-standard product for the past 25 years, so be sure to stop in and buy a real pizza, real soon. I mean, we wouldn't steer you wrong, would we? Well, other than those 25 years of selling you cotton wadding with some faux sauce and bogus sausage on it."

There is no definitive answer to this thread - it's a discussion. (Well, other than the obvious - that it would devolve into a discussion of one of our favorite topics - "Food".)

[madurobob]

Not in a brick oven. Heat conduction through direct contact with the brick under the pizza heats the crust faster than the hot air above the pizza cooks the top.

Yup, I was being a bit thick about that bit... I caught up eventually. Its not an issue of the entire oven being ceramic, although all the ones I've seen around here are built that way. Its an issue with the base being ceramic. Of course, a ceramic base can be achieved in virtually any oven, even a conveyor oven.

[Wowbagger]

They could've quietly improved the recipes and ingredients with minimal fanfare, but they're running these four and a half minute infomercials and really milking it.Yeah, changing everything, all at once, is a dumb thing to do. I am guessing they phased in the changes, too.

[arthwollipot]

I'm pretty sure that Domino's here in Australia is pretty different from Domino's in the US - it's got different management, different pizzas, and I certainly haven't seen any Australian Domino's ads of this kind.

Domino's pizzas are... adequate. They're not great pizzas by any stretch of the imagination, but they're perfectly edible and great with a big bottle of Coke on a games night.

Furthermore, Domino's in this particular area has pretty much edged out all the other delivery services. If you want pizza delivered, Domino's is about it. The local takeaways will of course do pizza for you, but in my opinion it's frequently not as good.

And my understanding of the conveyor belt system is that it cooks the pizza faster, but hotter. A proper oven cooks the pizza slower, at a slightly lower temperature. But I may be totally off-base with this - I was only ever a driver, not a preparer.

[ZirconBlue]

I'll stick with Chicago Pizza Authority where they make real pizza.


My favorite pizza is Chicago pizza, but not "Chicago-Style" pizza. I was pretty much raised on Home Run Inn (http://www.homeruninn.com/) and similar pizzas. That's the way pizza oughtta taste IMO, and it's very difficult to find outside of Chi-town.

[paiute]

Yup, I was being a bit thick about that bit... I caught up eventually. Its not an issue of the entire oven being ceramic, although all the ones I've seen around here are built that way. Its an issue with the base being ceramic. Of course, a ceramic base can be achieved in virtually any oven, even a conveyor oven.

http://www.pizzaovens.com/specifications/messages/Choosingrightoven.htm

A good description of the different ovens used to cook pizzas. In short, ovens with conveyor belts (which are stainless steel mesh) cook fast and don't take much skill to operate. Brick or deck ovens (stone baking surface) take more skill and are slower but give a better crust on the product.

and here

http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/education/commercial-pizza-oven-types/bd45.aspx

You would think one could engineer the best of both worlds with a superhot conveyor oven which had some kind of a ceramic belt.

[ZirconBlue]

A good description of the different ovens used to cook pizzas. In short, ovens with conveyor belts (which are stainless steel mesh) cook fast and don't take much skill to operate. Brick or deck ovens (stone baking surface) take more skill and are slower but give a better crust on the product.


"Better" assumes there is an objective standard by which pizza crust can be evaluated. I would think the "New York Style" vs "Chicago Style" debate would belie this assumption.

[tyr_13]

http://www.pizzaovens.com/specifications/messages/Choosingrightoven.htm

A good description of the different ovens used to cook pizzas. In short, ovens with conveyor belts (which are stainless steel mesh) cook fast and don't take much skill to operate. Brick or deck ovens (stone baking surface) take more skill and are slower but give a better crust on the product.



IF that is the kind of crust you like. I like Pizza Hut style crust most days.

That is why I, personally, have a problem with blanket statements like that. The best pizza I ever had was outside the palace of the Pope in France. Yes, it was a brick oven with a skilled cook. A brick oven with an unskilled cook sucks worse. Of course, I've had really good conveyor pizza too.

[madurobob]

You would think one could engineer the best of both worlds with a superhot conveyor oven which had some kind of a ceramic belt.

Yes, I would think it quite simple. The long conveyor ovens with a wire belt could easily be retrofitted with several inch-wide planks of ceramic attached to the belt - not unlike a caterpillar track. The belt spends all its time inside the oven anyway, so it would just be a matter of bringing the oven up to operating temp and giving the ceramic a chance to heat up before starting with the pizzas.

Tho I suppose clumsy employees could break the little ceramic pieces fairly easily.

[JWideman]

Worst pizza I ever had was not Domino's, but a family-run place near my grandfather. I have no idea why, but their pizza was nothing but grease and burnt dough.
The best is from a nearby family-run place.

[four elevener]

I have bad news for Domino's.

Some Chinese family has started a new wok restaurant in my hometown.
For the seven Euro's I usually pay for a fast food meal I can now watch some dude stir-fry fresh vegetables, meat and fish that I personally choose from the bar.
And they are obviously planning to turn it into a chain, great scalable restaurant interior included.

That is a healthy, fresh and tasty meal, for the same price as a McDonald's meal!

I'll be damned if I ever set foot in some fast food hell-hole again. Immigration is a blessing, I tell ya!

ETA: Oh, yeah. My kids are five and two. Let's go get a Happy Meal then.


There's a national chain like that already called Genghis Grill. Dunno if there's any in your state yet, but they started popping up around here (Houston) not too long ago. It's like a buffet...you load up the bowl yourself, including meats, veggies, sauces, etc. Then you hand it over to a bunch of dudes standing around a giant flat wok and one of them cooks it for you. Yummy! I'll take it over Dominos any day.

[Aepervius]

I don't know of any domino pizza, but I eat ONCE in a pizza hut. Never again. You can get good pizza for nearly the same price at any Italian restaurant. You will have to cuff me to get me in such chain-restaurant again. And accompany me with a tall big breasted blond with a big decoltee. Otherwise forget it.

AFAIK there is a few pizza hut around Frankfurt (something like 3 or 4) and one domino pizza somewhere. Hundred of Italian restaurants.

[Comrade Raptor]

I don't know about the pizza in your area, but the american chains here (Pizza Hut and Domino's) have the same problem: it's like eating a grease sponge. The crust is literally loaded with it.

It's cheaper, and probably healthier and tastier, to just drink a bottle of cooking oil.

But the local pizza places are good.

[Foolmewunz]

There's a national chain like that already called Genghis Grill. Dunno if there's any in your state yet, but they started popping up around here (Houston) not too long ago. It's like a buffet...you load up the bowl yourself, including meats, veggies, sauces, etc. Then you hand it over to a bunch of dudes standing around a giant flat wok and one of them cooks it for you. Yummy! I'll take it over Dominos any day.

The one you're describing (the "flat wok" is actually a big ol' griddle) is better known as "Mongolian Barbecue" around Asia. It's a cheap food fix, and quite tasty, but it has yet to drive all the other restaurants out of business.

(And, yes, I'll take Mongolian BBQ over Domino's, too.)

ETA: "Genghis" should also be the give-away that it's Mongolian style.

[arthwollipot]

I don't know about the pizza in your area, but the american chains here (Pizza Hut and Domino's) have the same problem: it's like eating a grease sponge. The crust is literally loaded with it.

It's cheaper, and probably healthier and tastier, to just drink a bottle of cooking oil.

But the local pizza places are good.Interesting. It's almost precisely the opposite here.

[Ambrosia]

"Better" assumes there is an objective standard by which pizza crust can be evaluated. I would think the "New York Style" vs "Chicago Style" debate would belie this assumption.

Pizza isn't really pizza anymore. The things you get from fast food chains are the poor mans distant cousin, thrice removed from a "proper" pizza.

The bread is mass produced to an exact recipe that the chain in question uses because it maximises their profits. See also the rest of the ingredients.

I have a recipe that I got from an Italian chef for tomato sauce. It's a basic staple sauce thats then adapted in various ways for various dishes. Essentially it's a LOT of tomatoes, onion, garlic, herbs that are cooked very slowly for a long time. The sauce that pizza chains use is very far away from that.

With all that said though, most peoples experience of what a pizza is, is based on the dross thats served up by fast food chains. These chains have been competing for market share and have come up with all kinds of innovations in the pizza world.

"The edge", stuffed crust, double decker, thick pan, etc.

Like everything in life pizza is evolving. What a "proper" pizza is to one person might differ wildly from another persons idea. We can say for sure there is a definitive way to make an "original" pizza, and that the fast food chains make fast food, cos thats what they do.

[Puppycow]

It's been about a decade since I've lived in the US, but my own recollection of Domino's was that it tasted OK.
Then again, I've certainly tasted better pizza too.

[ZirconBlue]

There's a national chain like that already called Genghis Grill. Dunno if there's any in your state yet, but they started popping up around here (Houston) not too long ago. It's like a buffet...you load up the bowl yourself, including meats, veggies, sauces, etc. Then you hand it over to a bunch of dudes standing around a giant flat wok and one of them cooks it for you. Yummy! I'll take it over Dominos any day.

I've been to a couple of those sorts of places in recent years. It's brilliant: They've shifted any blame for a bad "recipe" onto the customer. If you don't like your food, it's your own fault!




Pizza isn't really pizza anymore. The things you get from fast food chains are the poor mans distant cousin, thrice removed from a "proper" pizza.

Except. . .

What a "proper" pizza is to one person might differ wildly from another persons idea.



We can say for sure there is a definitive way to make an "original" pizza, and that the fast food chains make fast food, cos thats what they do.

Maybe. But "original" doesn't mean "best". There is such a thing as making improvements, after all. Personally, I'll take pizza from a local Chicago pizzeria (but not "Chicago-Style" pizza) over any "authentic Italian" pizza.

[Comrade Raptor]

Interesting. It's almost precisely the opposite here.



That's weird, I wonder why it's different? I thought that, being a chain, the preparation methods would be much the same from place to place.


We have one of those stir-fry places mentioned earlier here, too. It's called The Red Pepper and bills itself as "The Grill of Genghis Khan".

[commandlinegamer]

That's weird, I wonder why it's different? I thought that, being a chain, the preparation methods would be much the same from place to place.


We have one of those stir-fry places mentioned earlier here, too. It's called The Red Pepper and bills itself as "The Grill of Genghis Khan".

Didn't Genghis stuff one of his mothers-in-law full of peppers and roast her over a slow flame? Maybe that's where they got the name from.

[Modified]

This. That their ads show complaint letters, including "Your sauce tastes like ketchup" doesn't say much since that's the intent. Young people live on ketchup on everything except for things they dunk in ranch dressing, of course.

Yes, it mainly tastes like ketchup not because of the lack of spice, but because of the large amount of added sweetener.

[Travis]

I've only had a brick oven pizza a couple of times and I hated it. It was always burnt black on the bottom and the cheese on top wasn't even melted. All our local places use conveyor ovens or a variant convection oven (primarily because local building codes prohibit brick ovens) and I think their pizzas are just great.

As for Dominoes, hate them. I love Round Table's though and they use that dreaded conveyor oven!!!!

[pgwenthold]

There's a national chain like that already called Genghis Grill. Dunno if there's any in your state yet, but they started popping up around here (Houston) not too long ago.

I went to my first mongolian barbeque (that's generally what they are called) about 20 years ago, and it was not a new concept then, even.

[Foolmewunz]

I went to my first mongolian barbeque (that's generally what they are called) about 20 years ago, and it was not a new concept then, even.

Mongolian BBQ Derail:

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it's a fairly recent development, e.g. not developed under the Khans, but actually in the 20th century. It's a Taiwanese creation. They like to tell you it's because the ruling class arrived from Nanking in '49 and there were bureaucrats/republicans in the government from every area of China. Ergo, there would have been a few Mongolians amongst them who rekindled the traditional way of cooking. Alas, there's no proof at all that the Mongolians ever cooked food in this manner, and every Mongolian BBQ I've ever been to in Taiwan was owned by a local entrepreneur/restaurateur.

(Just trying to figure how they hauled those big ol' griddles around in their nomadic years would be an interesting study.) If you go for "barbecue" in Ulan Bator, you're not going to get what we perceive as "Mongolian BBQ".

More likely it's a variation of teppanyaki, just using somewhat more "Chinese" ingredients rather than Japanese. Taiwan was a possession of Japan for most of the first half of the 20th century, and there are many Japanese influences. Teppanyaki is still very popular in Taiwan.

[bigred]

I read about this, catching up on the news today. Apologies if there's a thread elsewhere on it.

It seems that Dominos listened to their customers and is now admitting that their pizza was, well, pretty horrible.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34812047/ns/business-consumer_news/


Wow. It's always nice to feel vindicated in some way. I've been saying Dominos was the worst pizza around for MANY years. That includes store bought and Peter Piper Pizza (which I think was frozen anyway). Most people I knew either disagreed or didn't have a strong opinion either way, and pretty much all thought I was too harsh.

I'll eat even a cheap nuked frozen pizza over that crapola any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Thanks for this post. :cool:

[arthwollipot]

I'll eat even a cheap nuked frozen pizza over that crapola any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Thanks for this post. :cool:No, Domino's is much better than cheap nuked frozen pizza. TONS better.

[Aepervius]

No, Domino's is much better than cheap nuked frozen pizza. TONS better.

Can't compare to domino but pizza hut was way worst than some of the best (but still cheap) frozen pizza here around. For one, because the frozen pizza had not a thick dough disk (ETA and really tasted after pizza dough), but a thin one. Pizza hut nearly always had a half centimeter to centimeter (ETA and tasted like some other sort of dough). Is domino the same ? sound so to me.

[Foolmewunz]

I do understand the idea that some pizzeria pizza can be worse than certain frozen ones. In the USA you just have to try some of the Stouffer's French Bread Pizzas - they're damned edible, let me tell you.

What I don't understand is how any pizzeria can make inedible crust. It is such a basic recipe that you have to go out of your way (e.g. by mass producing it and having it sit around for days and days, or not using a yeast-active dough) to make crappy crust. Water, salt, flour, olive oil, yeast.... what ingredients are they skimping on to save money that makes the stuff turn out tasting like cardboard?

[Travis]

I do understand the idea that some pizzeria pizza can be worse than certain frozen ones. In the USA you just have to try some of the Stouffer's French Bread Pizzas - they're damned edible, let me tell you.

What I don't understand is how any pizzeria can make inedible crust. It is such a basic recipe that you have to go out of your way (e.g. by mass producing it and having it sit around for days and days, or not using a yeast-active dough) to make crappy crust. Water, salt, flour, olive oil, yeast.... what ingredients are they skimping on to save money that makes the stuff turn out tasting like cardboard?

My suspicion is that, somewhere, there is a class the workers in these joints take on how to ruin good crusts. My personal favorite crust from a chain is Mary's Pizza Shack........but my absolute favorite place is a mom & pop place called Mile High Pie that is, like Denver, at the mile high elevation mark.

[Sideroxylon]

Interesting. It's almost precisely the opposite here.

Probably a different story in Melbourne where there are more Italian families. I remember a good place near work in Collingwood.

[Whiplash]

Can't compare to domino but pizza hut was way worst than some of the best (but still cheap) frozen pizza here around. For one, because the frozen pizza had not a thick dough disk (ETA and really tasted after pizza dough), but a thin one. Pizza hut nearly always had a half centimeter to centimeter (ETA and tasted like some other sort of dough). Is domino the same ? sound so to me.


Pizza hut has deep dish, hand tossed (similar to Dominos), and thin crust. Not sure what you are talking about.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I generally have a conundrum with Domino's - Their pizza doesn't thrill me, but I LOVE their hot buffalo wings. And ordering just wings is not enough for their minimum delivery requirements, so I have to get a pizza as well.

Their sandwiches are pretty good. I usually order the boneless wings and a chicken parm. That way I get my order delivered, but my tab is still reasonable.

There's a national chain like that already called Genghis Grill. Dunno if there's any in your state yet, but they started popping up around here (Houston) not too long ago.{snip}
The one you're describing (the "flat wok" is actually a big ol' griddle) is better known as "Mongolian Barbecue" around Asia.{snip}
I went to my first mongolian barbeque (that's generally what they are called) about 20 years ago, and it was not a new concept then, even.
Mongolian BBQ Derail:

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it's a fairly recent development, e.g. not developed under the Khans, but actually in the 20th century.{snip}.

Genghis grill (http://www.genghisgrill.com/) started here in Dallas IIRC and they've been expanding agressively over the past few years. I haven't been in a while, but for a time I was going 2 or 3 times a month.

As far as the history of Mongolian Barbeque, I remember 30 years ago that the NCO club on K.I. Sawyer AFB would have it weekly or bi-weekly, so while it's an ersatz version of Mongolian cuisine, it's not entirely new either. Which makes me wonder how the BD's Mongolian Barbeque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD%27s_Mongolian_Barbeque) in Ulan Bator will fare. :D

[Whiplash]

Yes, it mainly tastes like ketchup not because of the lack of spice, but because of the large amount of added sweetener.


Woah, wait, that's why the say it? There are people who think that Dominos sauce is sweet?

I'm guessing that would be people who never put sugar in anything, even prefering black coffee. I can't see how else someones taste buds could identify Dominos sauce as "sweet".

There are a number of Italian pizza places here in Milwaukee, and some of them have a very sweet sauce. And they are my favorites. I prefer sauces that taste as if they'd added wine, appropriate spices, and some brown sugar. I hate when they are just spicy and not sweet at all. I prefer it to be a bit tangy.

Dominos sauce is bland, and far from sweet, at least to my taste buds.

I can't help but feel if this subject is one of those typical elitist type things. I mean, I'm not going to hold up Dominos or Pizza Hut as being stellar examples of quality pizza. Not by far. But those who act like it's so digusting it'll make them choke.. that strikes me as ridiculous.

You'll see the same kind of thing when discussing most any fast food. There'll be people who proclaim that McDonalds and the like taste like pure excrement. You have to wonder how those chains ever became as popular as they are, if their food is all so awful.

That's why it occurs to me it's just a status thing. Some feel that their tastes are far more refined than to even think of eating a Big Mac. I guess I can't blame them, if they are going home to a nice plate of caviar. But I bet most of them are not.

[Aepervius]

Pizza hut has deep dish, hand tossed (similar to Dominos), and thin crust. Not sure what you are talking about.

Where I have eaten them, back in the 90's , they did not have a thin pizza crust (we are talking of the bottom, right ? Not the perimeter).

[Ambrosia]

I'll eat even a cheap nuked frozen pizza over that crapola any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

No, Domino's is much better than cheap nuked frozen pizza. TONS better.

Microwaving anything made with flour tends to destroy it's texture. Specifically the microwaves overheat the gluten and make it much more rubbery as well as melting the fat content of the pastry/bread.


What I don't understand is how any pizzeria can make inedible crust. It is such a basic recipe what ingredients are they skimping on to save money that makes the stuff turn out tasting like cardboard?

Stuff that tastes of cardboard usually doesn't have enopugh salt in it. They skimp on salt because salt kills yeast and means more yeast is required (costing more $). Lots of mass produced bread is actually made with a batter rather than a dough, so it's not kneaded and the gluten in the flour doesn't develop a very good structure to hold air bubbles within it, also for cost reasons, machinery to knead large amounts of dough is heavy duty and VERY pricy, machinery to make batter is orders of magnitude cheaper.

For making bread it's not so much what you use, it's how you use it.

Woah, wait, that's why the say it? There are people who think that Dominos sauce is sweet?
I can't see how else someones taste buds could identify Dominos sauce as "sweet".

Tomato sauce is *supposed* to be sweet. Maybe it's different here in the UK but Dominos sauce to me is over sweetened and bland.

I prefer sauces that taste as if they'd added wine, appropriate spices, and some brown sugar. I hate when they are just spicy and not sweet at all. I prefer it to be a bit tangy.

A correctly made tomato sauce has as one of it's ingredients, stuff thats called "Gastric". This is basically a reduction of vinegar and sugar, it's used to cut the acidity of the tomatoes and improve the all around flavour.

There'll be people who proclaim that McDonalds and the like taste like pure excrement. You have to wonder how those chains ever became as popular as they are, if their food is all so awful.people making such claims became aware of what excrement tastes like.

Fast food is tasty. If it wasn't the producers would go out of business. The fast food version of any food tastes like a poor imitation of the "real thing" almost without exception.

[Foolmewunz]

The last two posts raise an issue I brought up earlier. Domino's has like 9000 outlets, worldwide. Someone's been buying the stuff, obviously. I wouldn't know the exact metrics, but I'd imagine that any pizzeria selling low-priced product like this has to do a minimum of 150 to 200 pies a day. That's a whole lot of pizza - bad pizza according to the new campaign from Domino's - e.g. globally, well over a million pies a day.

What survey do they possess that tells them they can hold onto that 350 million pies per year market while attracting the new clientele? Are they the only show in town in so many markets? Is there mass-marketing going to give them that big an edge? It's a risky strategy. If Pizza Hut counters with a "Hey, we've always had delicious pizza!" campaign, what happens?

[Just thinking]

Just a rant about the one by me ...

Within the last year or so, they changed their formulation on one of my favorites, the Veggie-Feast variation; now they have a Pacific-Rim Veggie Pizza. To me it tastes awful, and I had to find out about it when I ordered my favorite only to get the Pacific-Rim one instead. They said I now have to order/say the "old-style" Veggie Feast if I want that.

OK ... for a number of months I was doing fine. Then they hit me with some new garlic-crust variant (http://www.slashfood.com/2009/12/16/dominos-changes-pizza-recipe/) that they say is now standard in all their pies. Again, to me it was awful, and they said that's how they will all be from now on. I said, fine ... I will no longer be a customer; goodbye.

Anyone else see this sort of thing happening?

[Comrade Raptor]

Didn't Genghis stuff one of his mothers-in-law full of peppers and roast her over a slow flame? Maybe that's where they got the name from.


"Tastes like mom was used to make!"

[Comrade Raptor]

Just a rant about the one by me ...

Within the last year or so, they changed their formulation on one of my favorites, the Veggie-Feast variation; now they have a Pacific-Rim Veggie Pizza. To me it tastes awful, and I had to find out about it when I ordered my favorite only to get the Pacific-Rim one instead. They said I now have to order/say the "old-style" Veggie Feast if I want that.

OK ... for a number of months I was doing fine. Then they hit me with some new garlic-crust variant (http://www.slashfood.com/2009/12/16/dominos-changes-pizza-recipe/) that they say is now standard in all their pies. Again, to me it was awful, and they said that's how they will all be from now on. I said, fine ... I will no longer be a customer; goodbye.

Anyone else see this sort of thing happening?


Not at a pizza place, but the Subway near me doesn't have plain whole wheat bread anymore. Just the oregoparmezanofullaseedsandjunk kinds. Fortunately, Quizno's is just as close and happy to give me whole wheat (plus they have swiss cheese).

[ZirconBlue]

A correctly made tomato sauce has as one of it's ingredients, stuff thats called "Gastric". This is basically a reduction of vinegar and sugar, it's used to cut the acidity of the tomatoes and improve the all around flavour.

"Correctly"? According to whom?

And why would you add vinegar to cut acidity?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Are they still cooking them by passing them through that conveyor belt oven? If so, it doesn't matter what else they do. The crust will not be properly cooked.

Pizza Hut uses that type of oven. In fact, the result is a more consistent outcome. With the old style ovens, it depends on the judgment and attentiveness of a (minimum-wage) worker.

At any rate, I never liked Domino's Pizza. Early on, they got business because they were one of the first to offer delivery. Once the others got delivery going, there was no reason to buy Domino's.

I also think this marketing strategy will fail. They're gambling that new customers will try them again at the risk of alienating whatever existing customers (who presumably liked their pizza as it was).

I'm not the least bit tempted to try the new recipe.

[Just thinking]

Fortunately, Quizno's is just as close and happy to give me whole wheat (plus they have swiss cheese).

Mmmmmmmmm .... I like melted swiss.

;)

[Just thinking]

I'm not the least bit tempted to try the new recipe.

It's awful ... and at the risk of not being very politically correct, I think it's kids oriented --- meaning the under 30 group.

And don't get me wrong about my earlier comments ... their regular Pizza is nothing great, just that I liked the combination of tastes on their original Veggie-Feast, the only one I bought. Plus it was open at midnight, which helped at times. I mean, what else can you get at that hour? ... White Castles? Not unless you want to die in your sleep.

[jnelso99]

The last two posts raise an issue I brought up earlier. Domino's has like 9000 outlets, worldwide. Someone's been buying the stuff, obviously.

Drunk college students.

I remember a place at the U of I that delivered until 4am - Grog's Pizza. A large with several toppings was $4, and it sure tasted like it. You couldn't get the smell of the sausage out of your room for a week.

The best pizza on the planet is Papa Del's, also at the U of I. One slice is a meal. Might have to try making my own (http://www.pizzamaking.com/papadels.php)...

[ZirconBlue]

Drunk college students.

I remember a place at the U of I that delivered until 4am - Grog's Pizza. A large with several toppings was $4, and it sure tasted like it. You couldn't get the smell of the sausage out of your room for a week.

The best pizza on the planet is Papa Del's, also at the U of I. One slice is a meal. Might have to try making my own (http://www.pizzamaking.com/papadels.php)...

"U of I"? Illinois? Iowa? Idaho?

Based on the link it must be Illinois. My brother runs a bar/pub/restaurant in Champaign.

[Careyp74]

Stuff that tastes of cardboard usually doesn't have enopugh salt in it. They skimp on salt because salt kills yeast and means more yeast is required (costing more $).

I believe there is more to it than that, like the kneading and resting cycles involved in each kind of dough, and the quality of ingredients. Everything from the temperature of the water added to the flour, right through to the temperature of the oven, will give you a different tasting result.


Lots of mass produced bread is actually made with a batter rather than a dough....snip

Could you give an example? I have seen mass produced bread being made on TV, and it was dough, I am curious to see how bread made with batter turns out. Of course, you are talking about Sodium Bi Carbonate mixes instead of yeast, right?


Tomato sauce is *supposed* to be sweet. Maybe it's different here in the UK but Dominos sauce to me is over sweetened and bland.

A correctly made tomato sauce has as one of it's ingredients, stuff thats called "Gastric". This is basically a reduction of vinegar and sugar, it's used to cut the acidity of the tomatoes and improve the all around flavour.


Sure, if you need to do such a thing, I suppose using better ingredients would help also.

"Correctly"? According to whom?

And why would you add vinegar to cut acidity?

Six years I spent as a break baker / pizza maker, and we never added sugar to our sauce. That was understood as a move done by those that bought cheap tomato paste, to hide the awful flavor.

[jnelso99]

"U of I"? Illinois? Iowa? Idaho?

Based on the link it must be Illinois. My brother runs a bar/pub/restaurant in Champaign.

Illinois. Force of habit. Which bar?

[Ambrosia]

"Correctly"? According to whom?

And why would you add vinegar to cut acidity?

According to my sauce lecturer at chef school.

Gastric (or Gastrique if you want to be all classical French) is something that a saucier has en place (ready to use) all the time, you use it to balance and correct a sauce. Food is seasonal and taste varies, so you use a small amount of this in your finished sauce to balance and correct the flavour.

Good sauces are made of many layers of flavours that complement each other.

Gastric is 2 parts vinegar to one part sugar, reduced down on a low heat to a syrup consistency, this cooking totally changes the flavour and the harsh acidity of the vinegar is boiled off in the cooking process.

If you are cooking at home and are pressed for time a close alternative is a thick aged balsamic vinegar.

Here's a recipe (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/recipes/5778304/How-to-make-the-perfect-pizza-really-intense-tomato-sauce.html) I just found on google for a pizza sauce that uses gastric.

[Travis]

Pizza Hut uses that type of oven. In fact, the result is a more consistent outcome. With the old style ovens, it depends on the judgment and attentiveness of a (minimum-wage) worker.

This is the problem with those types of ovens. It's why mine are always screwed up.

[Ambrosia]

I believe there is more to it than that, like the kneading and resting cycles involved in each kind of dough, and the quality of ingredients. Everything from the temperature of the water added to the flour, right through to the temperature of the oven, will give you a different tasting result.

True, but thats because temperature, humidity, resting time, proving time etc etc will affect the yeast, and the yeast is a living thing. The more of the starches that the yeast break down into sugars, and ultimately alcohol and carbon dioxide the more the structure of the dough is changed. The warmer the liquid added to start the process the faster the yeast reproduces up to about 37C, warmer than that will kill off yeast and slow the reproduction of the yeast cells in the bread.


Could you give an example? I have seen mass produced bread being made on TV, and it was dough, I am curious to see how bread made with batter turns out. Of course, you are talking about Sodium Bi Carbonate mixes instead of yeast, right?

No yeast batter. It's like a really really slack dough thats very sticky, you couldn't work with it by hand. I know that for burger buns, factories use this kind of mix, it's slopped into flexible rubber moulds and baked in a conveyor oven. I drew a blank rummaging for a link, tho I did find this pic (http://www.funatiq.com/interesting-and-funny/inside-mcdonalds-factory-in-russia/) of a McDonalds bun factory in Russia where you can kind of see this happening. It's the fourth one down or so captionned "cool technology"

ETA: You can't use this kind of mix for bread. It doesn't rise much, and the finished product is very soft. It's ideal for burger buns, and cheap pizza bases though.

[aggle-rithm]

Many Domino's shops are franchise operations. You might have just had a bad one.



It was a corporate store.

[Arus808]

These guys have 9000 outlets around the world. SOMEONE must like their pizza! Are they taking a huge risk or is this a brilliant ploy, and they'll do a New Coke / Original Coke routine, bringing back the original blah pizza for those who liked it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH5R56jILag
(can't figure out how to do YT thingy....)

They're recent commercials also reflect them dealing with the issue.

sorry, but even the new "dominos" still sucks. Their sauce sucks, and much of their toppings suck. Only their fancy smancy, crusts were pretty good, and the chocolate cake desert is good, but the rest of their offerings suck. And despite having a dominos only a 5 minute walking distance from me, and overcharging on delivery fees, I still can't get a delivery piping hot so their delivery drivers/bags suck as well.

I also share this feeling over Papa Johns pizzas, which is like eating cardboard with pasta sauce.


the only "fast food" pizza delivery places I enjoy are Pizza Hut and Round Table.

Everything else, is local "hole" in the wall shops that do better than these companies, but they don't deliver.


ETA: I did work for Pizza Hut for 1 1/2 years as a cook and delivery driver (11 years ago), so that may add to my bias, but I did like that Dominos was a Coca-Cola distributor, whereas Pizza Hut (for most of America) is owned by Pepsi Co. (I hate Pepsi). However, that never changed the fact that Dominos pizza sucked at that time, NOR does it change the fact that it STILL sucks today, even with the "change".

However, I will choose a Pizza done in the normal fashion way (a good Pizza restaurant, or a real Italian restaurant) over any Pizza fast food place, but Pizza Hut, cornered the market and loyalty of customers by simply making good "fast" food type Pizza. Round Table comes in a very close second because of their options of venturing outside of the normal "supreme" type pizza (their meat lover's kicks Pizza Hut's Meat lovers any day of the week).

the only thing I go for at Dominos these days are their dessert choices and cheese bread.

[bigred]

No, Domino's is much better than cheap nuked frozen pizza. TONS better.
No it's not. That's how bad it is.


Drunk college students.

lol - exactly. Well that and military (mostly enlisted 1st termers, esp those living in dorms). Neither tend to have the highest of standards on food. (I know as I was both once :cool: )

[arthwollipot]

No it's not. That's how bad it is.Then your Domino's is very different from ours.

[bigred]

Or we just agree to disagree. I don't consider that horrific.

[ZirconBlue]

Illinois. Force of habit. Which bar?

Legends.

According to my sauce lecturer at chef school.

Gastric (or Gastrique if you want to be all classical French) is something that a saucier has en place (ready to use) all the time, you use it to balance and correct a sauce. Food is seasonal and taste varies, so you use a small amount of this in your finished sauce to balance and correct the flavour.

Good sauces are made of many layers of flavours that complement each other.

Gastric is 2 parts vinegar to one part sugar, reduced down on a low heat to a syrup consistency, this cooking totally changes the flavour and the harsh acidity of the vinegar is boiled off in the cooking process.

If you are cooking at home and are pressed for time a close alternative is a thick aged balsamic vinegar.

Here's a recipe (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/recipes/5778304/How-to-make-the-perfect-pizza-really-intense-tomato-sauce.html) I just found on google for a pizza sauce that uses gastric.

I know what a gastrique is. I've just never had occasion to add one to a tomato sauce, nor, to my knowledge, have I ever been served a tomato sauce that included a gastrique. So, I was very suprised to hear that it was required for a "correctly" made tomato sauce.

Of course, most of the great tomato sauces I've had, including all pizza sauces I've had, were made by people that weren't "chefs".

Frankly, IMHO "chef" and "pizza" rarely belong in the same sentence.

[ZirconBlue]

Or we just agree to disagree. I don't consider that horrific.

Oh, come on! This is the internet! Someone has to be wrong!

[madurobob]

Oh, come on! This is the internet! Someone has to be wrong!

You're wrong about that.

[Whiplash]

Or we just agree to disagree. I don't consider that horrific.


But you are proclaiming it to be worse. That is clearly opinion. I would rather eat a Dominos than most normal cheap frozen Pizza, even Tombstone.

The more pricey, quality frozens out these days however, that's a different story. Some of those are quite excellent.

I haven't even tried the new Dominos recipe. I haven't had it in over a year. And I probably only have it a couple of times a year at most. I don't always love it. But it's rare that I'd be disgusted by it. It's functional. It does the job.

[arthwollipot]

Or we just agree to disagree. I don't consider that horrific.How could we disagree? If the pizzas in your area are that different, then we're talking about two completely different things. :) I may well agree if I tasted your local Domino's.

[bigred]

But you are proclaiming it to be worse. That is clearly opinion. Capt Obvious strikes again!

;) (couldn't resist)

I would rather eat a Dominos than most normal cheap frozen Pizza, even Tombstone. In fairness I haven't had a Dominos or a cheap frozen pizza in some time, I'll hedge a little and say the jury is out. But if they're about the same as they were years ago, my money is on the cheapie frozen one.


How could we disagree? If the pizzas in your area are that different, then we're talking about two completely different things. :) I may well agree if I tasted your local Domino's.
Given it's a chain, I think the odds of "your Dominos" being different than "my Dominos" are pretty small. So yes, we disagree about how good the same thing is, most likely.

[Achán hiNidráne]

My favorite take-out pizza is from Rocky Rocco's (http://www.rockyrococo.com/), a large Wisconsin pizza chain. Some of my favorite childhood memories involve a slice of their sausage and mushroom with a side salad and a large Cherry Coke.

[Lolly]

Given it's a chain, I think the odds of "your Dominos" being different than "my Dominos" are pretty small. So yes, we disagree about how good the same thing is, most likely.
Although you'd expect consistency, I've experienced marked differences in the quality of food from different stores. The Pizza Hut near here is very good, but the one near where I used to live was horrible.

The Dominos near here is awful. I've ordered twice. Both times they sent the wrong things and it wasn't nice at all. I won't order from there again., regardless of any change in their recipe.

[Foolmewunz]

Given it's a chain, I think the odds of "your Dominos" being different than "my Dominos" are pretty small. So yes, we disagree about how good the same thing is, most likely.

Actually, I missed this comment and just saw it quoted again.

Arthwollipot is in Australia. Once you cross borders, all bets are off when it comes to fast food chains.

Mickey D in Melbourne was offering Cappuccino (McCap, they called it, I believe) about 15 years ago.

They (ETA: "they" - McDonald's) also sell KFC style fried chicken in Taiwan and China.

Want a nice cup of niblet corn? McDonald's Hong Kong.

Kenny Rogers in the Philippines is a raging success, whereas they've shut down everywhere else in Asia that I know of. The reason? Because the locals doctored the roast chicken recipe to reflect local tastes, and instead of the usual sides, they offer plain old white rice, which Philippinos live on. In a food court near my office, Kenny Rogers does quintuple the business of Burger King, McDonald's, and a couple of local Asian chains represented there.

Don't order "buffalo wings" at either TGIFs or Hooters if you're ever over here. They had a bad sales day in about 1993 and recited the favorite mantra: "See, not Chinese enough - you need to make it more local", and proceeded to doctor the recipes. You wouldn't recognize them as standard buffalo wings.

Want a Domino's with smoked salmon, corn, tuna, and tofu? Welcome to Hong Kong.

[arthwollipot]

Yeah. What F said. It's the ingredients. Here's an example, not related to pizzas.

Coca-cola. Over hear, it's made with cane sugar. In the US, it's made with high fructose corn syrup. The recipe is otherwise identical, but they taste completely different.

From what I could tell in the week and a half I spent in the US, your cheese is different from ours. Your cheddar is orange, ours is yellow, and they taste completely different. The difference that being on another continent makes on the end product should not be underestimated.

[tesscaline]

Domino's isn't changing the things that makes it's pizza suck, so their pizza still sucks.

Dough -- most Domino's don't use fresh dough, made that day (yes, it varies from location to location, as with every chain/franchise). Instead, they use frozen dough that's been shipped in from corporate, and thawed in the walk-in. It doesn't matter how you treat a crust made from frozen dough. It will always turn out horrible. Even if you put "garlic herb topping" on it.

Sauce -- Canned sauce, not fresh or even jarred. With WAY too much sugar in it. And no fresh ingredients in it either. Garlic? No, garlic powder. Onion? No, onion powder. Basil? Hahahaha right.

Cheese -- has Domino's started using fresh cheese again yet? Or are they still using the frozen junk that comes pre "shredded" into teeeeny tiiiiny little cubes? Hmm?

Toppings -- Just how fresh are these toppings? Chopped that day, in the store? Oh no. Shipped in, pre-processed, in cute little plastic bags ready to rip open and dump into a tub on a refrigerated prep area. Shriveled, dried out, wrinkly husks of former vegetables. It's sad, really.

Until they fix all that? It will always be horrible horrible pizza.

[Foolmewunz]

Whilst I concur with you on frozen dough and most frozen cheeses (that plasticized crap that most mass-production firms use doesn't count as "cheese", in my book), if you check out the YouTube link in my OP, they're claiming that they're using real cheeses. I don't see any disclaimers, though, that they're not going to bulk produce it and freeze it in the midwest before shipping it out, so your general approach/complaint is likely still accurate.

[gumboot]

See my analogy of the hand. It is all about how fast the heat can get into the crust. No bricks need to go on top of the pizza. You want the top to be gooey and stringy and moist and delicious. You want the bottom to be crunchy and chewy and dry and delicious. You don't get that kind of uneven heat transfer from surrounding air.


You do realise that the pizzas aren't levitating right? They're sitting on a steel conveyor belt. How hot do you think that is?

I don't think it's got anything to do with what you're saying. I've had pizza cooked various ways, including wood-fired, cooked on a hot stone, and cooked the conveyor belt way, and I thought they were all good, with nice crisp bases and nice moist gooey toppings. Domino's just sucks, however, so it must be something other than their choice of cooking equipment.

[The Fool]

when I want a pizza I go to this small pizza place near my house. Run by an Italian, Real pizza oven. You watch him make it. Italian music in the background wonderful atmosphere...

pizza still tastes like crap....

[arthwollipot]

when I want a pizza I go to this small pizza place near my house. Run by an Italian, Real pizza oven. You watch him make it. Italian music in the background wonderful atmosphere...

pizza still tastes like crap....This describes some of my local places.

[pgwenthold]

My favorite take-out pizza is from Rocky Rocco's (http://www.rockyrococo.com/), a large Wisconsin pizza chain. Some of my favorite childhood memories involve a slice of their sausage and mushroom with a side salad and a large Cherry Coke.

I always associate RR with greasy deep dish. I don't know why. And a guy who looks like Leon Redbone, but that was because of the commercials.

When I was younger, I like Godfather's. Tried it again in college and was less impressed. I don't know if it was because it changed/was different (it was a different location) or because my tastes changed. They didn't deliver, so we didn't have it often.

When I was in college, the favorite delivery was Paul Revere's. It was comparable to Papa John's now.

[pgwenthold]

This describes some of my local places.

Oh absolutely. Sorry, but not all "local italian places" have great pizza, either. Most of the local pizza joints around here are pretty lame, I think. Our favorite places are the ones that will put sauerkraut on the pie for us.

[Arus808]

Speaking of Pizzas, you guys have to try Mr. Pizza Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Pizza_Korea) if you're ever in Los Angeles. Unbelievably good. Their Gold Pizza is to die for and they also use Sweet Potato as a topping and as a crust.

Sometimes, you dont have to goto an Italian restaurant, to get really good pizza. I mean, where can you get Bugogi on your pizza?

[tesscaline]

Whilst I concur with you on frozen dough and most frozen cheeses (that plasticized crap that most mass-production firms use doesn't count as "cheese", in my book), if you check out the YouTube link in my OP, they're claiming that they're using real cheeses. I don't see any disclaimers, though, that they're not going to bulk produce it and freeze it in the midwest before shipping it out, so your general approach/complaint is likely still accurate.
I didn't claim they weren't using real cheese, as their commercials claim they use real cheese. Of course, it being "real" speaks nothing to the quality of it... But I wasn't going to bring that up.

[ZirconBlue]

I didn't claim they weren't using real cheese, as their commercials claim they use real cheese. Of course, it being "real" speaks nothing to the quality of it... But I wasn't going to bring that up.


It's 100% genuine Moozerella!

[Ambrosia]

Frankly, IMHO "chef" and "pizza" rarely belong in the same sentence.

dagger through the heart :(

Chefs are by and large people that cook for a living because they love to cook and they love food.

Pizzas are food. If I ever make it to a TAM or get to meet some JREF posters sometime I will be happy to demonstrate how this chef and pizza ought to be used in the same sentance :)

Course I am better with things that involve chocolate but..

[godofpie]

Frankly, IMHO "chef" and "pizza" rarely belong in the same sentence.
QFT
this is my shop (http://www.uppercrustpizzaparlor.com/).
I have never had any one that was a chef/ has been to culinary school/ been able to figure out how to make a decent pie.

[Prometheus]

Oooooooohhhhhhh... its not the brick oven, per se, its what the pizza pan sits on! So, we're agreed that if the conveyor oven used pre-heated pizza stones that the results would be more or less the same, right?

So, the statement that Dominoes will always suck as long as they use a conveyor oven is not quite true. The truth is they need to come up with a way to better finish the crust in the conveyor oven. Some combination of better pans, better dough recipe, etc..

And, yes, I use a stone at home for just this reason - it makes a nicer crust. But, I don't believe the pizza would be any better if the entire oven were brick.

Actually, the brick oven itself does make quite an important difference. While it is true that using a pizza stone in another oven type will improve the crust somewhat, the reason for the heavy brick walls and ceiling of a proper pizza oven is that they provide a significant amount of radiant heat, which cooks the top of the pizza unevenly from the outside in, just as the stone floor does (via conduction) for the crust.

Alton Brown has a very good primer on the pros and cons of the three methods of heat transfer (conduction, convection, and radiation) in his book, I'm Just Here For The Food.

Most cooking methods involve some mix of the three, but the heating profile (how much of the heat transferred to the food comes from each type, and at what rate/temperature) can make a huge difference in the texture and taste of the finished food.

Conveyor type ovens use primarily convection, which is very good at cooking food evenly, as it transfers a lot of heat at lower temperature and drives that heat into the center of the food quickly, so the core cooks almost at the same rate as the surface. Convection is really good for things like cookies and cakes (though even for those there are advantages to using a static oven rather than a conveyor).

For pizza, and many other savory foods, the unevenness of conduction and radiation create a sweeter, more complex flavor and varying texture that is orders of magnitude better. Radiant heat from the bricks in a pizza oven will crisp the outer surface of the cheese and other toppings, break up some starch into sugar, caramelize some of the sugar, open up protein and cause it's flavors to be carried differently by fats. All this while the core of the food remains moist and less cooked, so you get a layering of many variants of the flavors present.

[mortimer]

Once you cross borders, all bets are off when it comes to fast food chains.
... or really, any food genre at all, whether from a chain or not.

I remember quite vividly some 25 years ago in Munich, ordering a pizza slice from a street vendor. I asked for green olives on mine. I thought it slightly odd that the olives were whole, rather than sliced. More painful than odd, I found that the olives also had not been depitted.

[Whiplash]

I'm beginning to feel this campaign is similar to the one Microsoft had where they were showing people some "new windows" and not telling them till the end that it is Vista. It was a means of trying to demonstrate that the complaints about the product were unfounded.

Or the entire new Coke fiasco is probably more comparable.

I feel that Dominos is trying to do something similar. They would like a bigger market share, maybe they have lost some business.. but there is a very strong sentiment out there that their pizza "sucks". A sentiment I still feel is held by many simply on some kind of hatred of fast food in general. That it's beneath some people to eat it. Or McDonalds. Or just about any and all fast food. Not so much about how it tastes as the stigma they feel is associated with even considering eating such "slop".

I think Dominos is trying to take that on by making some small changes and proclaiming it to be wildly different, to get people to give it a chance. But I suspect it won't make a difference, because I'm getting the feeling that people who hate Dominos will continue to hate it regardless of what they do. Because I really believe that, for some, it's more about that negative association with the product than it is about the actual taste of the product.

[paiute]

You do realise that the pizzas aren't levitating right? They're sitting on a steel conveyor belt. How hot do you think that is?

Too hot. Or rather, if you did cook a pizza on a flat metal surface, the bottom would cook too quickly. The conveyor in the conveyor oven is a metal grid.

[Just thinking]

The sign on the oven at my local Domino's store read ...

Oven is hot ... +/-500o.

Man, don't they realize that's a 1000 degree spread in temperature?

(I'm not even going to get into the fact that no scale goes to -500o.)

[tesscaline]

I'm beginning to feel this campaign is similar to the one Microsoft had where they were showing people some "new windows" and not telling them till the end that it is Vista. It was a means of trying to demonstrate that the complaints about the product were unfounded.

Or the entire new Coke fiasco is probably more comparable.

I feel that Dominos is trying to do something similar. They would like a bigger market share, maybe they have lost some business.. but there is a very strong sentiment out there that their pizza "sucks". A sentiment I still feel is held by many simply on some kind of hatred of fast food in general. That it's beneath some people to eat it. Or McDonalds. Or just about any and all fast food. Not so much about how it tastes as the stigma they feel is associated with even considering eating such "slop".

I think Dominos is trying to take that on by making some small changes and proclaiming it to be wildly different, to get people to give it a chance. But I suspect it won't make a difference, because I'm getting the feeling that people who hate Dominos will continue to hate it regardless of what they do. Because I really believe that, for some, it's more about that negative association with the product than it is about the actual taste of the product.What exactly are you basing your above position on? Given that a number of people here can detail exactly what's wrong with the pizza in terms of cooking technique and ingredients, and aren't just saying "omg that fast food junk is horrible"? Given that people have cited other fast food pizza establishments as being preferable to Domino's?

[JoeTheJuggler]

On the conveyor vs. non-conveyor (what we used to call Blodgett ovens) issue:

If you're comparing one pizzaria to another and claiming the difference is the ovens, you should notice that everything else is different too. (In other words, you're not controlling for all the other variables.)

The only thing I would say you can generalize is the point I made earlier: with conveyor ovens, you'll get a more consistent result than you do with the kind that rely on the judgment and attentiveness of a the cook.

I worked in a Mom & Pop pizza parlor for about 5 years (was an assistant manager at the end), then as an assistant manager at a Pantera's for a few years, then as an assistant at Pizza Hut for just a few months. The first two used the Blodgett ovens, and Pizza hut used the conveyor oven. They all three had drastically different recipes and techniques for their doughs and sauces. The toppings were pretty much all the same.

So these comments that say a conveyor oven is inferior aren't really valid. FWIW, the Pizza Hut pan pizza very nearly gets deep fried in their pans with a lot of oil. Traditional pizza goes right on the stone (no pan at all). So these comparisons are apples and oranges.

ETA: But I agree that Domino's sucks, and I'm still not tempted to give them another chance by their new ad campaign. You can get better tasting frozen pizza in the grocery store these days.

[JoeTheJuggler]

The sign on the oven at my local Domino's store read ...

Oven is hot ... +/-500o.

Man, don't they realize that's a 1000 degree spread in temperature?


You don't suppose the sign means the oven is ~500°F or maybe c. 500°F?

Or better yet, do you think anyone would take it to mean what it literally says (sort of)?

[Just thinking]

You don't suppose the sign means the oven is ~500°F or maybe c. 500°F?

Or better yet, do you think anyone would take it to mean what it literally says (sort of)?

Of course ... it's part of the .50¢ mentality. People don't understand what they are actually saying (displaying).

[madurobob]

Too hot. Or rather, if you did cook a pizza on a flat metal surface, the bottom would cook too quickly. The conveyor in the conveyor oven is a metal grid.

True, but as JoeThe Juggler points out, the brick oven uses no pan, the conveyor oven does. The pan can make a big difference.

I make three pizzas every Friday night. One for the kids is cooked on a thin metal pan with hundreds of little holes poked in it. The crust cooks very quickly - too quick for my taste. My pizza is cooked on a pre-heated stone thats about 10 years old and well seasoned. The top of the pizza gets nice and toasted before the crust is done. Usually the third pizza goes on the stone, too, but sometimes I use an "air bake" pizza pan I got as a gift a few years ago. It cooks the crust even slower than the pre-heated stone does.

So, I suspect much of the perceived problem with conveyor ovens can be mitigated with use of the proper pan.

[enjoytheview]

Dominos recently opened up a pizza place near where I live. Given that I've only ever heard bad things, I was quite surprised when the pizza I bought from there was both edible and enjoyable. Not my favourite pizza place around, but for what I paid for the pizza it was definitely value for money. Maybe I just got lucky.

[Mr.D]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread as my paycheck is financed (albeit indirectly) by one of Domino's principal national competitors.

The local Dominos' franchisee(s?) have been slowly fading over the last ten to fifteen years or so - so much so that I'd heard some corporate-types voice their opinion that the parent firm would "soon" just drop the state altogether. The common issues cited were along the lines several people noted; frozen dough and skimpy toppings just can't compete with freshly made, especially if cost is about the same.

In fact I had been under the impression that this "we sucked, but we're better now" ad campaign was due to trouble across the entire Dominos brand due to too much cost cutting - it's been interesting to find out how varied peoples experiences are (even in an industry that is designed to favor consistency over quality).

It'll be interesting to see if this campaign will have a positive effect locally or if it's too little too late.



Now: On to the REAL issue. Is there anywhere I can get a good "Chicago Style" deep-dish pizza here on Oahu? Anyone?

[Lurker]

My favorite take-out pizza is from Rocky Rocco's (http://www.rockyrococo.com/), a large Wisconsin pizza chain. Some of my favorite childhood memories involve a slice of their sausage and mushroom with a side salad and a large Cherry Coke.

I used to get Rocky Roccoco's over in Mpls and to this day I think they have the best sausage for pizza. Large chunks that had a lot of flavor. Awesome. I moved out of the area and miss it. The pizza itself was pretty good.

[pgwenthold]

I just want to mention that I had Pizza Hut for the first time in many years the other night. While the crust was fine, the rest of the pizza was godawful. Flat toppings with a sheet of cheese and a generally tasteless sauce. I'd take any random Dominos over that any day.

[HarryKeogh]

Coca-cola. Over hear, it's made with cane sugar. In the US, it's made with high fructose corn syrup. The recipe is otherwise identical, but they taste completely different.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but I'd love to run a blind taste-test with people who claim this and see if they can tell the difference.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Coca-cola. Over hear, it's made with cane sugar. In the US, it's made with high fructose corn syrup. The recipe is otherwise identical, but they taste completely different.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but I'd love to run a blind taste-test with people who claim this and see if they can tell the difference.

They can't.

[lector]

Oooooooohhhhhhh... its not the brick oven, per se, its what the pizza pan sits on! So, we're agreed that if the conveyor oven used pre-heated pizza stones that the results would be more or less the same, right?

I'm reaching back a few days here, but want to note that the other point about good pizza is that it's not made in a pan.

If one reads a history of Domino's, one finds that they got big because their founder was obsessed with devising a means of getting delivery pizza to the customer while it was still hot. He experimented with all sorts of materials & box designs until he hit on the right combination. They were pioneers in that respect. The quality of the product that was kept so wonderfully hot seemed secondary.

[madurobob]

I'm reaching back a few days here, but want to note that the other point about good pizza is that it's not made in a pan.

Well, its got to be on something. Either a stone/ceramic surface or a steel tray, or something. As I said above, I make three pizzas each week (and every week going on 10 years now), some on a stone and some on a pan, and they are all good in differing ways. Stating that good pizza cannot be made on a pan simply will not fly with me.

[lector]

Well, its got to be on something. Either a stone/ceramic surface or a steel tray, or something. As I said above, I make three pizzas each week (and every week going on 10 years now), some on a stone and some on a pan, and they are all good in differing ways. Stating that good pizza cannot be made on a pan simply will not fly with me.

I thought your original post was implying that pizzas are always made in pans. Pizzerias in these parts generally don't use pans, at least the independent ones; I can't speak for the chain shops.

I probably should have said that good pizza is not necessarily made in a pan. Beyond that, it's down to personal taste.

[madurobob]

I probably should have said that good pizza is not necessarily made in a pan. Beyond that, it's down to personal taste.

Bingo. I generally prefer no pan, but all things being equal (dough recipe, quality toppings, good sauce, oven temp...) the pan is probably less of a factor than other variables. The most important variable is probably the care and expertize of the baker. I'm sure an expert pizza baker could make a pizza in a conveyor oven that would knock the socks off of a generic brick oven pizza run by your typical underpaid chain restaurant employee.

Like others, I'd be interested in a blind test. Might mean a trip to Godofpie's place!

[Prometheus]

Well, its got to be on something. Either a stone/ceramic surface or a steel tray, or something. As I said above, I make three pizzas each week (and every week going on 10 years now), some on a stone and some on a pan, and they are all good in differing ways. Stating that good pizza cannot be made on a pan simply will not fly with me.

Of course you are correct to note that "good" pizza can be made in any number of different ways. The real point is that they are different. Some people develop a particular taste for one way over another.

Since you do both, you've probably noticed that the crust has a different consistency if you deliver the cold dough onto a pre-heated pizza stone, than if you put it on a cold pan and place the pan on an oven rack. The hot stone crisps the outside of the dough faster, and keeps the inside of the crust moister and chewier--especially if you use a very high oven temperature, like 700 F.

If you really wanted to, you could make an excellent pizza on a conveyor oven. It would be different than one cooked in a brick oven, and some overly discerning people might not accept it, but it could still be quite good. Dominoes' problem is not really the equipment they chose, it's the reason they chose it (and consequently the way they use it). Conveyor's are used because with one, a brain-dead teenager can poduce identical pizzas one after the other, quickly and efficiently, by wrote. And Dominoes' recipe is designed toward that same end.

Getting a really good pizza out of the same oven would require pizza cooks who actually understand what they're cooking, and who take the initiative to experiment with settings and methods and ingredients. Who know that their dough will rise differently on a warm humid day than on a cold dry day, and know how to account for that in their cooking, etc. Dominoes' business model doesn't allow for that, and the conveyor ovens were chosen because of their business model.




ETA: Oops, I see we've cross posted and are in general agreement. Cheers!

ETA 2: I should add, that it's their business model as well which makes me highly skeptical of this new advertising. I don't see that adjusting the recipe is likely to make an important enough difference in the quality of their product.

[madurobob]

Since you do both, you've probably noticed that the crust has a different consistency if you deliver the cold dough onto a pre-heated pizza stone, than if you put it on a cold pan and place the pan on an oven rack. The hot stone crisps the outside of the dough faster, and keeps the inside of the crust moister and chewier--especially if you use a very high oven temperature, like 700 F.

I wish. My oven goes up to 500f and that's where I cook pizza. Even there, though, there is a noticeable difference between a cool stone, a preheated stone, a steel pan and an "air-bake" pan. I prefer the heated stone, but I only heat it to maybe 350 degrees.

[Prometheus]

I wish. My oven goes up to 500f and that's where I cook pizza. Even there, though, there is a noticeable difference between a cool stone, a preheated stone, a steel pan and an "air-bake" pan. I prefer the heated stone, but I only heat it to maybe 350 degrees.

Alton Brown takes pains to point out that, due to any potential legal culpability or voiding of warranties, he would never advocate that anyone disable the automatic door lock on their oven's "self-cleaning" feature, so that they can use the cleaning cycle to pre-heat the oven to over 700 degrees. ;)

I have never done this, but I am tempted to try. :)

[madurobob]

Alton Brown takes pains to point out that, due to any potential legal culpability or voiding of warranties, he would never advocate that anyone disable the automatic door lock on their oven's "self-cleaning" feature, so that they can use the cleaning cycle to pre-heat the oven to over 700 degrees. ;)

I have never done this, but I am tempted to try. :)

I'll be damned - I never thought if that! I disabled the door lock because it malfunctioned, but never thought "gee, I wonder just how hot it gets in there while its cleaning".

Duh, I have an oven thermometer that goes up to 750f. Sometimes I just need to be slapped upside the head - thanks for that!

[Verde]

According to:
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/dining/articles/0214pizza14-CP.html
is the best Pizza joint in the country.

I had some friends in town that insisted on going there. We waited at least two hours to get served; seems to be an ego trip at that place. When it finally arrived, I thought it tasted like crap.*

For the Mongolian BBQ derail, if you are ever in east Phoenix check out YC's. Excellent yummies.

V.

* If you have young kiddies and dogs in the house, you will know what crap tastes like.

[arthwollipot]

They can't.Well, all I can say is that the Coke I had in the US tasted different from the Coke I'm used to. Not better, or worse, but different.

I once did a blind test between Coke and Pepsi because someone claimed that they were indistinguishable. But Coke and Pepsi are actually different. I'd be interested in doing the side-by-side blind test, but I'd have to import some Coke from the US in order to do so.

[Whiplash]

Coke and Pepsi are indeed quite different. I have done the "Pepsi challenge" a couple of times in my life (the most memorable was at a state fair). I could tell the difference. Pepsi is flatter and sweeter, by comparison. Coke has more bite or sting to it.

[Prometheus]

Well, all I can say is that the Coke I had in the US tasted different from the Coke I'm used to. Not better, or worse, but different.

I once did a blind test between Coke and Pepsi because someone claimed that they were indistinguishable. But Coke and Pepsi are actually different. I'd be interested in doing the side-by-side blind test, but I'd have to import some Coke from the US in order to do so.

I've been keeping an eye out for some sugar cane Coke so I can do a double-blind test, but I haven't come across it yet. Supposedly they sell it with yellow caps in some areas around Boston during Passover, but I haven't found it yet.

[Arus808]

Most of the coke made in America are made with corn syrup. the only coke that I know that isn't are the Coca Cola that is imported from Mexico (where they use Cane sugar). you can tell if its imported because that $1.40 bottle then goes up to $3 in price.

I always chose Coke in the Pepsi Challenge. Not to say that I didn't know the taste, but just to mess with the dolts who were hired to administer the challenge.

And coke definitely has a bit more "bite" to the flavor than Pepsi does. I can't stand the taste of Pepsi. I find RC Cola and store brand colas taste better.

[Ambrosia]

If any of you have read the book "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell about how the brain makes snap decisions, there's a whole section in it on the Pepsi taste test I agree with completely.

Pepsi is sweeter, Coke is sharper. Consequently more people choose Pepsi after a couple of sips. However if you drink a whole bottle/glass/can of the stuff (I can't stand coke at all fwiw) coke is favoured by the majority of testers because pepsi is cloyingly oversweet to most people having drunk a lot of it.

The interview with the two professional tasters had an effect on my cooking. I am a pastry chef by trade, I decided to become a pastry chef as I had a huge sweet tooth when I was younger. Chefs must taste everything they make. So in the course of my career I have eaten a LOT of sugary food, which over time has killed my sweet tooth entirely. Over time I have dialled down the sweetness of my desserts to the point now where if you taste a spoonful of something you might well think it doesn't taste right. Customers don't only eat a spoonful of a dessert though, they eat the whole thing (well usually :) ) so the balance of sweetness needs to be such that having eaten a whole slice of say Lemon Tart it's not oversweet or over tangy, and it's also not too big so your customer feels the need to undo their belt or something after having eaten 3 courses and necked half a bottle of wine, it's a difficult thing to judge.

I'd be willing to wager that I could tell sugar coke apart from HFCS coke in a double blinded test. I'd hope so, I taste food for a living and know a little about the differences in chemistry between HFCS and sugar.

[paiute]

According to:
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/dining/articles/0214pizza14-CP.html
is the best Pizza joint in the country.

I had some friends in town that insisted on going there. We waited at least two hours to get served; seems to be an ego trip at that place. When it finally arrived, I thought it tasted like crap.*

For the Mongolian BBQ derail, if you are ever in east Phoenix check out YC's. Excellent yummies.

V.

* If you have young kiddies and dogs in the house, you will know what crap tastes like.

I have had pizzas all over the country. Flat and crispy, deep and moist, crust like bread, crust like a big thick cracker, sauce that was sweet, sauce that was tangy, etc. Dominoes, Papa John's, Pizzeria Regina, small corner shops, etc. Some have been delicious, some have been merely edible. I can still remember the only time in my life I just could not bear to eat a slice of pizza. It was at the Sbarro's in the old Dedham Mall. I don't remember now what was wrong with it, but it is still the only pizza I ever found inedible.

[pgwenthold]

I have had pizzas all over the country. Flat and crispy, deep and moist, crust like bread, crust like a big thick cracker, sauce that was sweet, sauce that was tangy, etc. Dominoes, Papa John's, Pizzeria Regina, small corner shops, etc. Some have been delicious, some have been merely edible. I can still remember the only time in my life I just could not bear to eat a slice of pizza. It was at the Sbarro's in the old Dedham Mall. I don't remember now what was wrong with it, but it is still the only pizza I ever found inedible.

If it was like the typical Sbarro's, I'm guessing it was all the grease.

[alfaniner]

I use the bottom tray of a terra cotta planter as a pizza stone. (But only for that purpose!)

[ZirconBlue]

I've been keeping an eye out for some sugar cane Coke so I can do a double-blind test, but I haven't come across it yet. Supposedly they sell it with yellow caps in some areas around Boston during Passover, but I haven't found it yet.

I saw in Wal-Mart yesterday, cases of "Pepsi Throwback", which is made with sugar. I'm not sure if that's the only difference from the standard Pepsi, though.




I use the bottom tray of a terra cotta planter as a pizza stone. (But only for that purpose!)

Are you sure that's food safe?

[Darth Rotor]

If any of you have read the book "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell about how the brain makes snap decisions, there's a whole section in it on the Pepsi taste test I agree with completely.

Pepsi is sweeter, Coke is sharper. Consequently more people choose Pepsi after a couple of sips. However if you drink a whole bottle/glass/can of the stuff (I can't stand coke at all fwiw) coke is favoured by the majority of testers because pepsi is cloyingly oversweet to most people having drunk a lot of it.

The interview with the two professional tasters had an effect on my cooking. I am a pastry chef by trade, I decided to become a pastry chef as I had a huge sweet tooth when I was younger. Chefs must taste everything they make. So in the course of my career I have eaten a LOT of sugary food, which over time has killed my sweet tooth entirely. Over time I have dialled down the sweetness of my desserts to the point now where if you taste a spoonful of something you might well think it doesn't taste right. Customers don't only eat a spoonful of a dessert though, they eat the whole thing (well usually :) ) so the balance of sweetness needs to be such that having eaten a whole slice of say Lemon Tart it's not oversweet or over tangy, and it's also not too big so your customer feels the need to undo their belt or something after having eaten 3 courses and necked half a bottle of wine, it's a difficult thing to judge.

I love it when someone puts the E in to JREF. Thanks! :)

[Checkmite]

Dominos: "our pizza sucks, but now we're uh... adding more herbs to the sauce!"

On the other hand - if the chief complaint about that the pizza sauce is that it's bland and ketchuppy, isn't adding more herbs the logical and correct thing to do?

"This plain rice is bland."

"Okay hold on, lemme try adding some things to it..."

"Are you crazy? How's that going to help anything?"

[Checkmite]

Pepsi is sweeter, Coke is sharper. Consequently more people choose Pepsi after a couple of sips. However if you drink a whole bottle/glass/can of the stuff (I can't stand coke at all fwiw) coke is favoured by the majority of testers because pepsi is cloyingly oversweet to most people having drunk a lot of it.

Wow, really? I tasted them both today, and it seems to me that Pepsi seems much more "fizzy" to Coke's "foamy". I think Pepsi's decidedly sharper (i.e., more acidic-tasting) than Coke.

But then, I've always preferred Pepsi in general, so I can't really say I'm unbiased.

[pgwenthold]

Isn't the Mexican version (sugar) Coke the one that is in the mexican food aisle in the grocery? I always assumed that is what it was, but never have looked.

In terms of the Pepsi v Coke challenge, does it depend a lot on circumstances? For example, fountain vs glass bottle vs plastic bottle vs can? Freshly opened vs sitting around?

[HarryKeogh]

Here's a link to a guy who did a very non-scientific blind taste-test of Coke vs. Mexican Coke and Pepsi vs. Pepsi Throwback. He was able to pick out the Pepsi Throwback but couldn't pick out the Coke sweetened with sugar as opposed to corn syrup. He comments how it was much easier to pick out the Pepsi with sugar than the Coke with sugar.

http://www.needcoffee.com/2009/07/22/sugar-vs-high-fructose-corn-syrup/

[tesscaline]

On the other hand - if the chief complaint about that the pizza sauce is that it's bland and ketchuppy, isn't adding more herbs the logical and correct thing to do?

"This plain rice is bland."

"Okay hold on, lemme try adding some things to it..."

"Are you crazy? How's that going to help anything?"No. The reason Domino's sauce tastes like ketchup is because they put WAY too much sugar in it. Adding herbs won't help anything at all. They need to remove the sugar to effect the proper change.

[NYCEMT86]

g-Z2x4SClaE


Could this be Domino's old recipe? :D

[kbm99]

ETA: see, that's where your hand analogy breaks down for me. I don't think there will be any difference in sticking my hand in a 450F steel enclosed conveyor belt oven compared to a 450F brick oven. Its still 450F air either way. I don't touch bricks

But the pizza does.

[Arus808]

I'd be willing to wager that I could tell sugar coke apart from HFCS coke in a double blinded test. I'd hope so, I taste food for a living and know a little about the differences in chemistry between HFCS and sugar.

no wager needed. Coke made with real cane sugar has somewhat of a "cinamony" taste to it. the TASTE between HFCS and real cane Sugar is that distinguishable.

Nice story on your sweet tooth, and I totally agree with what you stated. I cannot eat sweets (or deserts) that are too sweet to begin with, as such I wouldn't be able to finish the desert.

coke I enjoy because its not as sweet as Pepsi. After a while, Pepsi makes my stomach turn because it is too sweet.

[Arus808]

Here's a link to a guy who did a very non-scientific blind taste-test of Coke vs. Mexican Coke and Pepsi vs. Pepsi Throwback. He was able to pick out the Pepsi Throwback but couldn't pick out the Coke sweetened with sugar as opposed to corn syrup. He comments how it was much easier to pick out the Pepsi with sugar than the Coke with sugar.

http://www.needcoffee.com/2009/07/22/sugar-vs-high-fructose-corn-syrup/


wow. that is very odd. cause Mexican coke (the only coke I know that uses sugar cane) could easily be identified.


can't play his video, but did he eat a plain cracker before tasting each drink? (yes there is a very good reason why you should do so)

[Steve]

From what I could tell in the week and a half I spent in the US, your cheese is different from ours. Your cheddar is orange, ours is yellow, and they taste completely different. The difference that being on another continent makes on the end product should not be underestimated.

I had to come back to this. Cheddar? in the US? you can't be serious! They have something called "American cheese". It is completely devoid of any actual dairy product as near as I can tell, and tends toward a sort of fluorescent orange colour. This is probably what you encountered.

and.....AFAIK cheddar is naturally white. Any other colour is added artificially

[roger]

I had to come back to this. Cheddar? in the US? you can't be serious! They have something called "American cheese". It is completely devoid of any actual dairy product as near as I can tell, and tends toward a sort of fluorescent orange colour. This is probably what you encountered.

and.....AFAIK cheddar is naturally white. Any other colour is added artificiallyTo be fair, if you buy cheap supermarket brand cheddar, or megabrands like Kraft, it is often dyed orange. For example, here is a producer of cheddar cheese for Kraft, featuring an image of a cheddar with a nice healthy orange color (wot??) http://www.tregafoods.com/cheeseproducts.html

On other other hand, we have a large number of cheese producers turning out great cheese, which you can easily get by going either to the premium cheese section of a normal supermarket like Safeway, or any of the cheese in a place like Trader Joes, Whole Foods, etc. No dyes there.

It's like saying American beer is cheap swill. Mega-brewery beer isn't exactly fine, but our regional and microbrews regularly win international competitions, and they are widely available. I live 30 minutes or so from the nearest grocery in the mountains of CO, but 3 minutes away at the liquor store (yes, we have a liqour store, but no groceries - we have 6 comercial buildings in the 'town', two of them gas stations, one an auto repair, one liquor store, a struggling coffee shop, and one run down 'strip' store with no current tenants - the boonies in other words) I have some of the world's best American brews available to me. And Budweiser and Coors.

[Arus808]

speaking of pizza, at work we ordered Dominos for delivery and despite the torrential rain here in LA, the pizza arrived quickly.

Still the same taste at the location that delivered to us. Sauce is still sweet (compared to others) and the garlic on the crust was extra strong.

adding herbs to an already sweet sauce, ain't going to change it.

[Ambrosia]

AFAIK cheddar is naturally white. Any other colour is added artificially

Nope, cheddar is approximately the same colour as butter, pale yellow. The exact colour depends on the fat content of the milk used for production, as well as the type of cow the milk comes from.

Some more processed "Cheddar" does indeed contain colouring, usually annatto.

One of the best Cheddars is called "Montgomery (http://www.farmhousecheesemakers.com/cheesemakers/montgomery_s_cheddar/)" hard, occasionally blue veined in places, matured in cloth, made from unpasteurised milk, set with calf rennet, matured for 18months, it's about as traditional as you can get and if you like strong flavoured hard cheeses it is absolutely *stunning*.

[ZirconBlue]

I had to come back to this. Cheddar? in the US? you can't be serious! They have something called "American cheese". It is completely devoid of any actual dairy product as near as I can tell, and tends toward a sort of fluorescent orange colour. This is probably what you encountered.

and.....AFAIK cheddar is naturally white. Any other colour is added artificially


OK, this is just downright offensive. We do have plenty of cheeses other than "American" cheese, and Cheddar, in particular, is quite popular. There are even regional styles of Cheddar in the US (Vermont vs Wisconsin vs New York Cheddar).

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Well, all I can say is that the Coke I had in the US tasted different from the Coke I'm used to. Not better, or worse, but different.

Were you comparing can vs fountain? Fountain vs fountain? Etc. Were you comparing the same products? Coke has numerous variations (Coke Zero, etc), depending on the market.

Trust me, Coke goes to great lengths to insure that every can of Coke in the world tastes exactly the same.

I once did a blind test between Coke and Pepsi because someone claimed that they were indistinguishable. But Coke and Pepsi are actually different. I'd be interested in doing the side-by-side blind test, but I'd have to import some Coke from the US in order to do so.

Yes, Coke and Pepsi do taste different. Pepsi is sweeter.

[Smackety]

Little Caesar's is still better. Though the crust was a bit better than it used to be, Domino's is still the worst pizza available - the cheese is just nasty stuff, whatever it is. (it sure isn't stringy)

[Retrograde]

It's like saying American beer is cheap swill. Mega-brewery beer isn't exactly fine, but our regional and microbrews regularly win international competitions, and they are widely available.

Shhhh! If you let this get out we'll have all these foreigners coming here and drinking the good stuff. We need to preserve the myth that all US beers are swill so we can keep the regional brews all to ourselves. The same goes for American wines and cheeses - it'll leave more for us.

[Steve]

To be fair, if you buy cheap supermarket brand cheddar, or megabrands like Kraft, it is often dyed orange. For example, here is a producer of cheddar cheese for Kraft, featuring an image of a cheddar with a nice healthy orange color (wot??) http://www.tregafoods.com/cheeseproducts.html

On other other hand, we have a large number of cheese producers turning out great cheese, which you can easily get by going either to the premium cheese section of a normal supermarket like Safeway, or any of the cheese in a place like Trader Joes, Whole Foods, etc. No dyes there.

I know this really. Same situation here in Canada. I love good cheese and when I eat cheddar I prefer extra old. the good stuff is rarely found on supermarket shelves

It's like saying American beer is cheap swill. Mega-brewery beer isn't exactly fine, but our regional and microbrews regularly win international competitions, and they are widely available. I live 30 minutes or so from the nearest grocery in the mountains of CO, but 3 minutes away at the liquor store (yes, we have a liqour store, but no groceries - we have 6 comercial buildings in the 'town', two of them gas stations, one an auto repair, one liquor store, a struggling coffee shop, and one run down 'strip' store with no current tenants - the boonies in other words) I have some of the world's best American brews available to me. And Budweiser and Coors.

We are frequent visitors to Oregon (Portland and Astoria). Our friends there certainly know where to find the good beer. Having said that, I am not so much of a beer snob that I can't also enjoy the cooling effects of swilling MGD on a hot summer day.

[Steve]

Nope, cheddar is approximately the same colour as butter, pale yellow. The exact colour depends on the fat content of the milk used for production, as well as the type of cow the milk comes from.

Some more processed "Cheddar" does indeed contain colouring, usually annatto.


I stand corrected. I suppose I shold have said "off-white" or something similar. It is certainly not the orange colour commomly seen on supermarket shelves. For the record, the Armstrong extra old cheddar that I usually buy is so pale that to call it "white" would really not be incorrect.

[Ambrosia]

I was about to suggest these people (http://www.paxtonandwhitfield.co.uk/index.php) as a source to get hold of amazing cheese if you are not in the UK. Sadly their shipping costs to the US, or the rest of the world are astronomical, and soft cheeses are not permitted :(

[arthwollipot]

I know this really. Same situation here in Canada. I love good cheese and when I eat cheddar I prefer extra old. the good stuff is rarely found on supermarket shelvesReally? Weird. We get great cheese at the supermarket. But then again, we have King Island (http://www.kidairy.com.au/foodservice.aspx)... :rolleyes:

[Just thinking]

Coke has more bite or sting to it.

I call it the back-of-the-throat battery acid burn.

It's the real thing!

[ZirconBlue]

Really? Weird. We get great cheese at the supermarket. But then again, we have King Island (http://www.kidairy.com.au/foodservice.aspx)... :rolleyes:


We do too. Most supermarkets I know have cheese in two areas: one with the Kraft and other crap cheeses, and one with the imported and artisan cheeses.

[Just thinking]

Most of the coke made in America are made with corn syrup. the only coke that I know that isn't are the Coca Cola that is imported from Mexico (where they use Cane sugar).

I've mentioned this once before ... back in the early 90's I bought a can of Coke from a vending machine right outside the offices of Zion National Park. One sip and the taste made me feel as if I was transported back to the 1960's. I looked on the can to see what the ingredients were. Sugar --- HFCS was not to be found.

[Prometheus]

In baking, we use both cane sugar and HFCS (as well as several other sugars/syrups) as distinct ingredients with different properties. HFCS is slightly sweeter, and has a different "mouthfeel" than cane sugar, so I think it's plausible that the two versions of Coke might be distinguishable by a sensitive enough palate. I wonder if the two have the same specific gravity?

[GreyICE]

Why not? Pizza just needs heat, and lots of it. Why can that heat not occur in an oven where the rack moves slowly through, instead of one where the rack is stationary and humans manually move the pizza in and out?
Because all heat is not created equal. These are the numbers you are looking for:

Aluminum Commercial Sheet 0.09
Stainless Steel, polished 0.075
Brick, fireclay 0.75

What are they? I'll leave you to guess...






That's right, emissivity coefficients. Inside a conveyor belt metal oven, cooking is done primarily through direct coil radiation (maybe, oh, 15-30%) and convection.

Inside a stone oven, it's done primarily from radiation. Moreover, this radiation is universal - it comes from every single direction. It gets even worse - metals conduct heat quickly and store almost none, they cannot even heat up to the levels of stone and brick ovens.

This is a HUGE difference. It's why it's impossible to bake bread inside a kitchen oven, for one thing. If you want to approximate the effect, try sticking a clay cooking pot in your home oven, run it through a clean cycle, then open the pot and place whatever you want to cook in the pot (be a bit careful - it's now around 600 degrees).

[ZirconBlue]

It's why it's impossible to bake bread inside a kitchen oven, for one thing.

It is? What's that flour- and yeast-based stuff I've been baking all those years?

[GreyICE]

It is? What's that flour- and yeast-based stuff I've been baking all those years?

Something that vaguely resembles bread, but has none of the real characteristics of the stuff.

You can get a dough to rise up and even look a tad like the real thing, but they just don't deliver enough heat in the right manner to really cook good bread. It's one of the reasons a good bakery always kicks the ass of whatever you make.

I happen to live with a chef at the moment, who has a real interest in the actual chemistry and physics of this stuff - it's kind of awesome.

[ZirconBlue]

Something that vaguely resembles bread, but has none of the real characteristics of the stuff.

You can get a dough to rise up and even look a tad like the real thing, but they just don't deliver enough heat in the right manner to really cook good bread. It's one of the reasons a good bakery always kicks the ass of whatever you make.

I happen to live with a chef at the moment, who has a real interest in the actual chemistry and physics of this stuff - it's kind of awesome.

If having "a real interest in the actual chemistry and physics of this stuff" leads to absurd ideas like it being "impossible" to make bread in a home oven, then I'll pass.

[pgwenthold]

I call it the back-of-the-throat battery acid burn.

It's the real thing!

The "acid burn" from soft drinks is predominantly driven by the carbonation.

Here's a fun exercise to do: take a freshly opened carbonated soft drink (pretty much any will do), pour it into a glass and stick your tongue in it and try to hold it there. Most people, with fresh soda, will not be able to last much more than a minute - the pain gets unbearable.

The reason is because of the carbonic anhydrase in your saliva, which converts the carbon dioxide into carbonic acid. It is the carbonic acid that causes the burn, far more than any phosphoric acid that is present (there is some).

This is actually the secret to Barq's root beer. It's extra carbonated. That is what causes the "spark" in the "Barq's got spark" campaign.

[Ambrosia]

Something that vaguely resembles bread, but has none of the real characteristics of the stuff.

You can get a dough to rise up and even look a tad like the real thing, but they just don't deliver enough heat in the right manner to really cook good bread. It's one of the reasons a good bakery always kicks the ass of whatever you make.

Define "good bread"

There are *hundreds* of types of bread and the best method to make any of them varies, a lot.

For the record I am a chef who spent a bunch of time studying the physics and chemistry involved who worked as a night baker for a few years.

The main reason a good bakery kicks the ass of most home made breads if we are talking about your standard loaves of bread is because of the quality of the kneading thats done. e.g. my white bread rolls are kneaded on a spiral mixer for about 15 minutes on a medium speed, thats equivalent to about 45 minutes of hand kneading, and domestic mixers can't do a good job of kneading as the motors they use are woefully underpowered. My brioche recipe takes 10 minutes of beating at full speed to develop the gluten in the dough properly you just can't do that at home.

Yes the ovens and how hot they are is a big factor, but not a big as the methods used to develop the gluten in the dough (kneading)

A domestic oven set at full heat gets to about 260C, if you put say a piece of slate in your oven close to the heat source it'll get close to the temperature that the stones in a commercial deck oven reach. The biggest thing you can't do at home is actually inject steam into the oven while keeping the door closed. That ramps the air temp inside the oven up quite a bit, causing the CO2 bubbles that are trapped within the bread by the well developed gluten in the dough to almost double in size in a short space of time, making your bread much lighter.

Temperature is only one variable and bread is pretty complicated stuff.

[ZirconBlue]

The "acid burn" from soft drinks is predominantly driven by the carbonation.

Here's a fun exercise to do: take a freshly opened carbonated soft drink (pretty much any will do), pour it into a glass and stick your tongue in it and try to hold it there. Most people, with fresh soda, will not be able to last much more than a minute - the pain gets unbearable.

The reason is because of the carbonic anhydrase in your saliva, which converts the carbon dioxide into carbonic acid. It is the carbonic acid that causes the burn, far more than any phosphoric acid that is present (there is some).

This is actually the secret to Barq's root beer. It's extra carbonated. That is what causes the "spark" in the "Barq's got spark" campaign.

I did not know that. That is some weird, wild stuff.


Define "good bread"

There are *hundreds* of types of bread and the best method to make any of them varies, a lot.

<snip>

Temperature is only one variable and bread is pretty complicated stuff.

This is what I'm saying.

[pgwenthold]

I did not know that. That is some weird, wild stuff.



Try the tongue exercise. It's pretty amazing the level of pain you reach in a short time.

[GreyICE]

Define "good bread"

There are *hundreds* of types of bread and the best method to make any of them varies, a lot.

For the record I am a chef who spent a bunch of time studying the physics and chemistry involved who worked as a night baker for a few years.

The main reason a good bakery kicks the ass of most home made breads if we are talking about your standard loaves of bread is because of the quality of the kneading thats done. e.g. my white bread rolls are kneaded on a spiral mixer for about 15 minutes on a medium speed, thats equivalent to about 45 minutes of hand kneading, and domestic mixers can't do a good job of kneading as the motors they use are woefully underpowered. My brioche recipe takes 10 minutes of beating at full speed to develop the gluten in the dough properly you just can't do that at home.

Yes the ovens and how hot they are is a big factor, but not a big as the methods used to develop the gluten in the dough (kneading)

A domestic oven set at full heat gets to about 260C, if you put say a piece of slate in your oven close to the heat source it'll get close to the temperature that the stones in a commercial deck oven reach. The biggest thing you can't do at home is actually inject steam into the oven while keeping the door closed. That ramps the air temp inside the oven up quite a bit, causing the CO2 bubbles that are trapped within the bread by the well developed gluten in the dough to almost double in size in a short space of time, making your bread much lighter.

Temperature is only one variable and bread is pretty complicated stuff.
Pretty much exactly this.

Thanks for the interesting information.

[ZirconBlue]

Pretty much exactly this.

Thanks for the interesting information.

I don't think Ambrosia was supporting your assertion that it's impossible to make bread in a home oven.

[GreyICE]

I don't think Ambrosia was supporting your assertion that it's impossible to make bread in a home oven.

http://forums.randi.org/customavatars/avatar6890_44.gif

[Just thinking]

In baking, we use both cane sugar and HFCS (as well as several other sugars/syrups) as distinct ingredients with different properties. HFCS is slightly sweeter, and has a different "mouthfeel" than cane sugar, so I think it's plausible that the two versions of Coke might be distinguishable by a sensitive enough palate.

It may very well require different recipes (different procedures and flavoring ratios) that influence taste as well. Solubility issues and all that.

[ZirconBlue]

http://forums.randi.org/customavatars/avatar6890_44.gif


Nicely done.:D

Ambrosia,

Can you please clarify whether you agree or disagree that it is "impossible to bake bread inside a kitchen oven"?

[Ambrosia]

You can make good bread at home - I do it quite often myself :)

There are though types of bread that you can only make a close approximation of.

"Bread" to most people means the stuff you buy sliced in the supermarket. Thats very doable at home as it's a soft crust style bread.

It's bread thats very crusty on the outside and very fluffy on the inside thats dam near impossible, to do at home. Stuff like French baguettes where the recipe is flour water salt and yeast and the secret to the recipe is all in the techinque, thats not going to work well at home.

Pizza crusts no problem for the home cook, Focaccia, Ciabatta various italian style breads tricky but doable, naan breads no problem, tortillas no problem, lots of different flat breads no problem, soda bread, malt loaf, banana bread easy.

Couple of tricks you can use. Heat the oven as hot as you can, add a splash of lemon juice with the water to your dough before you knead it, and a spoon of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to the flour as well which helps improve things (the acid helps to tighten up the gluten), and when you put the bread in the oven fling a cup of warm water over the side of the oven to try and generate a steamy atmosphere to start your bread in (not over the heating elements or over the gas flame if it's a gas oven!) use the strongest bread flour you can find (unless you specifically want a soft bread as the finished thing) and put as much work into kneading as you are able.

Correctly worked bread dough should feel like slightly cool (the dough wants to be a few degrees colder than blood temp (37C) ) damp flesh, and firm and springy for most recipes.

Making bread is both theraputic and the smell of it baking is awesome so I highly reccommend maming your own, just don't expect to be able to get great results trying to make "crusty" style bread, and expect the professionals to outdo you. (like in most things in life)

[JimBenArm]

I stand corrected. I suppose I shold have said "off-white" or something similar. It is certainly not the orange colour commomly seen on supermarket shelves. For the record, the Armstrong extra old cheddar that I usually buy is so pale that to call it "white" would really not be incorrect.
"Armstrong", "extra old" and "pale". Four words that just belong together.

[Prometheus]

....
Couple of tricks you can use. Heat the oven as hot as you can, add a splash of lemon juice with the water to your dough before you knead it, and a spoon of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to the flour as well which helps improve things (the acid helps to tighten up the gluten), and when you put the bread in the oven fling a cup of warm water over the side of the oven to try and generate a steamy atmosphere to start your bread in (not over the heating elements or over the gas flame if it's a gas oven!) use the strongest bread flour you can find (unless you specifically want a soft bread as the finished thing) and put as much work into kneading as you are able.....

I put a pan of boiling water on the bottom shelf before pre-heating the oven, and a cast iron griddle on the next shelf up which I fling a cup of water on.

Also, I've discovered that my local supermarket now sells pure gluten which I can add to regular flour and play with the amount to get the result I want.

[ZirconBlue]

You can make good bread at home - I do it quite often myself :)

That's what I'd thought you'd say. :D


Couple of tricks you can use. Heat the oven as hot as you can, add a splash of lemon juice with the water to your dough before you knead it, and a spoon of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to the flour as well which helps improve things (the acid helps to tighten up the gluten), and when you put the bread in the oven fling a cup of warm water over the side of the oven to try and generate a steamy atmosphere to start your bread in (not over the heating elements or over the gas flame if it's a gas oven!) use the strongest bread flour you can find (unless you specifically want a soft bread as the finished thing) and put as much work into kneading as you are able.

The addition of acid is interesting. I've seen recommendations to just put a baking dish of boiling water in the bottom of the oven for some recipes. For example the Cooks Illustrated Baguette recipe has you cook the bread on a pizza stone, with a baking sheet of simmering water on the oven floor.

[Denver]

I'm not a big pizza orderer. Usually I either get a Papa Murphey's take/bake, or make my own pizza. But I thought I would give their advertised 2 mediums 2 toppings for $5.99 each a try.

I made one with the toppings in the ad (pepperoni and mushroom). The other with provolone and extra sauce.

Verdict: They were ok. Nothing special. I won't be ordering from them again. Not because they were bad. Other options continue to be better.

[arthwollipot]

Only two toppings? Oh my.

[GreyICE]

I'm still not getting it. Both ovens there is a similarly sized pocket of 800 degree (or so) air that moves primarily via convection. Its the air that cooks the pizza. How does having bricks surround the air pocket in one case, and steel in the other case make any meaningful difference?

ETA: see, that's where your hand analogy breaks down for me. I don't think there will be any difference in sticking my hand in a 450F steel enclosed conveyor belt oven compared to a 450F brick oven. Its still 450F air either way. I don't touch bricks and I don't touch steel; just air.
But of course this is not true. A laser fails massively at heating the air in front of you. Yet a powerful one can still burn you very nicely.

It is not convection from the surface of the laser that burns you. Brick radiates heat very nicely. Steel... doesn't.

(for a similar example, firewalking freequently is done on coals that are 400 or more degrees. This is very different from walking on 400 degree steel (which would probably destroy your feet in seconds)

[madurobob]

But of course this is not true. A laser fails massively at heating the air in front of you. Yet a powerful one can still burn you very nicely.

It is not convection from the surface of the laser that burns you. Brick radiates heat very nicely. Steel... doesn't.

(for a similar example, firewalking freequently is done on coals that are 400 or more degrees. This is very different from walking on 400 degree steel (which would probably destroy your feet in seconds)

Right, I get it, and we've been through this. The 450F air in the brick oven is not materially different than the 450F air in a steel oven. The difference is in the use of the brick oven: the pizza sits directly on the ceramic oven floor rather than on a steel platter suspended on a steel rack. The result, if managed properly by the cook, is a crust that cooks quicker in brick oven all things being equal. Some consider this a better crust and thus a better pizza; I count myself among them. Of course, all things are rarely equal and I maintain that a very similar result could be achieved in a conveyor oven by using a different pan and/or different dough recipe and/or different oven temp.

[Denver]

Only two toppings? Oh my.

For me, the way to really judge a pizza is with no toppings. Just the sauce and cheese and crust.

[madurobob]

For me, the way to really judge a pizza is with no toppings. Just the sauce and cheese and crust.

One pizza I made Friday evening has no sauce, caramelized onion, blue cheese and ripe pear slices. Didn't sound good to me at first, but it was amazing.

[arthwollipot]

For me, the way to really judge a pizza is with no toppings. Just the sauce and cheese and crust.What??? That's not a pizza.

[Denver]

What??? That's not a pizza.

That is the soul of pizza!

[Prometheus]

You can't just put anything you like on a pizza, you know; there are laws (http://anticapizzeria.net/vpn/rules.html).

[Whiplash]

KRAMER (in a chef's hat and apron): See, anybody can do this. (Tosses pizza dough into the air.)

POPPIE: Use your wrist! It's all in the wrist. (Kramer tosses the dough way up there.) Not too high!

KRAMER (puts the dough on the counter): Alright, put a little sauce on here... (speaks some unintelligible words in an Italian accent while spreading the sauce around.) Some cheese...

POPPIE: Not too much!

KRAMER: And...cucumbers! (Grabs a large handful and puts them on the pizza.)

POPPIE: Wait a second...what is that?

KRAMER: It's cucumbers.

POPPIE: No, no. You can't put cucumbers on a pizza.

KRAMER: Well, why not? I like cucumbers.

POPPIE: That's not a pizza. It'll taste terrible.

KRAMER: But that's the idea, you make your own pie.

POPPIE: Yes, but we cannot give the people the right to choose any topping they want! Now on this issue there can be no debate!

KRAMER: What gives you the right to tell me how I would make my pie?

POPPIE: Because it's a pizza!

KRAMER: It's not a pizza until it comes out of the oven!

POPPIE: It's a pizza the moment you put your fists in the dough!

KRAMER: No, it isn't!

POPPIE: Yes, it is!

[Piercy]

This inspired me to give Domino's a try. Ordered online and it came in 30 minutes.

Enough topping and cheese and pizza was very hot of delivery.

So far the original crust is the worst I have ever had. I might not be able to eat much more of it without a significant break. Has a coal/burnt taste. Enough to leave a bad aftertaste but not quite enough to call them about it. I don't taste ANY herbs or spices.

Thanks a lot JREF.

:p

[Wowbagger]

Well, I happened to have tried some Domino's, tonight: Regular cheese and the Pacific Veggie.

Of course, it's been years, possibly decades, since the last time I had Domino's. But, from I can remember about how much it sucked, back then, I must say that there does seem to be some improvement, here.

Still not great, mind you. I would give the plain cheese at most 3 stars, out of 5. (Versus 1 or 2, from previous experiences). And that is being generous.

The Pacific Veggie is better: a good, solid 3 stars or so. Fairly good mix of spices, for one thing.

However, there are much better pizza places around here, that also happen to be more convenient for me to get to. So, it looks like Domino's will still be a rarity, for me.

But, at least I won't moan and groan, as much, when someone else picks up a pie from them.

As a side note: Their Chocolate Lava crunch cakes are small, but quite good! You can obviously get better stuff at gourmet bakeries, but seldom at pizza chains.