Earthquake hits Haiti

[The Drain]

Big earthquake hits Haiti

This looks really serious. I've been trying to contact a work colleague in Port-au-Prince, but can't get through. The mobile phone networks are down.

This from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8455629.stm):


BBC:
A powerful 7.3-magnitude earthquake has struck off the coast of Haiti, rocking the capital and sparking a tsunami alert for neighbouring states. Haiti's envoy to the US said it was a "catastrophe of major proportions" as reports from the capital spoke of casualties and damage.
The tremor hit at 1653 (2153 GMT), about 15km (10m) south-west of Port-au-Prince, the US Geological Survey said.
A hospital and other buildings are reported to have collapsed.

[The Man]

Wow 7.3 with 5.9 and 5.5 after aftershocks. I hope your colleague is alright.

[WildCat]

That's a powerful earthquake. I didn't know Haiti was so seismically active.

[tyr_13]

Neither did I, but those are pretty strong aftershocks. Hopefully aid and emergency services are up to it.

[AJM8125]

Hope everyone's OK. We went through a 7.1 in 1989 and it did moderate damage to a region that (for the most part) is prepared. The good news is they don't expect a tsunami:

To: U.S. and Canadian Atlantic, and Gulf of Mexico coastal regions
From: NOAA/NWS/West Coast and Alaska Tsunami Warning Center
Subject: Tsunami Information Statement #1 issued 01/12/2010 at 6:03PM AST

A strong earthquake has occurred, but a tsunami IS NOT expected along the coasts of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, U.S. Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico states, and Eastern Canadian provinces. NO tsunami warning, watch or advisory is in effect for these areas.

Based on the earthquake location, magnitude, and historic tsunami records, a damaging tsunami IS NOT expected along the Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, U.S. Atlantic, Eastern Canadian and Gulf of Mexico coasts. Earthquakes of this size can generate destructive tsunamis along the coast near the epicenter. Authorities in the epicentral region should be aware of this possibility and take appropriate action.

At 5:53 PM Atlantic Standard Time on January 12, an earthquake with preliminary magnitude 7.3 occurred in the Haiti region . (Refer to the United States Geological Survey for official earthquake parameters.)

The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center in Ewa Beach, Hawaii will issue messages for areas in the Caribbean outside Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.

This will be the only statement issued for this event by the West Coast/Alaska Tsunami Warning Center unless conditions warrant. See the WCATWC web site for basic tsunami information, safety rules, and a tsunami travel time map and table. (NOTE: Travel time maps and tables indicate forecasted times only, not that a wave was generated.)


http://wcatwc.arh.noaa.gov/2010/01/12/333319/01/message333319-01.htm

ETA: USGS has downgraded it to 7.0

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqinthenews/2010/us2010rja6/

[Sam.I.Am]

From what I've gathered from here and there on the internet is that a hospital in Port Au Prince collapsed as well as the parliament building and a 7 story building. There's also tens of dollars worth of damages in the shanty towns...

[Sam.I.Am]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/americas/13haiti.html?pagewanted=1&ref=global-home

It sounds pretty bad.

[The Man]

From what I've gathered from here and there on the internet is that a hospital in Port Au Prince collapsed as well as the parliament building and a 7 story building. There's also tens of dollars worth of damages in the shanty towns...

I read about the hospital, but not the parliament building. Undoubtedly, not very stringent construction practices. From what I have read so far, the epicenter was on the island itself making it that much more devastating.

[MattusMaximus]

From what I understand, they haven't had a quake like this in about 200 years. You combine that with the poor economic conditions in Haiti, and - pardon the pun - it's a recipe for disaster when something like this comes along. They not only don't have any recent experience in dealing with earthquakes like this, but even if they did they don't have the economic infrastructure to prepare for it or deal with the aftermath.

Damn, what a mess.

[The Man]

Just seeing some video on the news now, what a tragedy.

ETA:

It seems the epicenter was right at the capital of Port-au-Prince.

[AJM8125]

Starting to look real bad. :(

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_268324b4d4c37cc624.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=18689)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/6978444/Haiti-earthquake-staff-missing-as-UN-headquarters-damaged.html

[Pardalis]

Dammit, it's one disaster after another that hits Haïti. Please, everyone, try to donate to the Red Cross.

[AJM8125]

Dammit, it's one disaster after another that hits Haïti. Please, everyone, try to donate to the Red Cross.

Blood, food and water also. Donate wherever and whatever you can afford please.

[Sam.I.Am]

Starting to look real bad. :(

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_268324b4d4c37cc624.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=18689)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/6978444/Haiti-earthquake-staff-missing-as-UN-headquarters-damaged.html

That image was from the Chinese quake a year ago. A couple of news outlets made the same mistake.

Same picture, different story. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/4434400/Chinese-earthquake-may-have-been-man-made-say-scientists.html)

This is from Haiti (the presidential palace).

Before:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8611/tll2w4247779.jpg

After:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4976/gcytv4056280.jpg

[Kopji]

CNN is falling all over themselves in a frenzy. There is actually news that is not some stupid celebrity or politician behaving badly. Anderson Cooper is on the air almost boasting that he's going to board a late night flight and try and drive to the capital overland via the Dominican Republic.

Hi ho silver!

[shemp]

CNN is falling all over themselves in a frenzy. There is actually news that is not some stupid celebrity or politician behaving badly. Anderson Cooper is on the air almost boasting that he's going to board a late night flight and try and drive to the capital overland via the Dominican Republic.

Hi ho silver!

Likely this will result in a drop in their ratings.

[Scott Haley]

Dammit, it's one disaster after another that hits Haïti. Please, everyone, try to donate to the Red Cross.

I want to donate money to help the Hatians. Is the Red Cross the group to give it to? I remember the scandal when donations to help 9/11 victims weren't all used for that.

[MattusMaximus]

I'd guess the Red Cross has gotten their act together since the 9/11 screwup. I'll be donating to them later today.

[Undesired Walrus]

Blood, food and water also. Donate wherever and whatever you can afford please.

Can you donate blood abroad?

It looks worse and worse, with thousands now feared dead: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8456819.stm

[Darth Rotor]

From what I've gathered from here and there on the internet is that a hospital in Port Au Prince collapsed as well as the parliament building and a 7 story building. There's also tens of dollars worth of damages in the shanty towns...
*Gollum voice*

While we loves us a bit of gallows humor in the morning, Precious, we are very sad to see that a hospital collapsed. Not good for the patients there, not good for people who will need treatment soon.

Prediction: USNS Mercy or USNS Comfort will be deployed to assist. Probably an amphib flotilla as well.

DR

[The Drain]

Our office in Port-au-Prince is a solid well-built two storey building. Well, it was.
It's been flattened.

Three of our colleagues, including my friend, were trapped for a while but have since been pulled out 'somewhat battered and bruised' and shaken but alive.

They're now back at work with our partner organisations in Haiti (charitable local NGOs) doing rescue work, and organising fresh water - including one which is big enough to have a web presence, Veterimed (http://www.veterimed.org.ht/). Lack of medicine is a problem. So is lack of electricity, and with that the mobile phone network.

Later, over the next few days, we'll have to think about organising food and shelter for the survivors. Longer term, rebuilding.


I want to donate money to help the Hatians. Is the Red Cross the group to give it to? I remember the scandal when donations to help 9/11 victims weren't all used for that.

My advice would be to give to any large well-known international aid agency that already has a presence in Haiti. They have experience with disasters, they generally know what's wanted, and - more to the point - they find out from the survivors themselves what's wanted beforehand.

But please beware of small-scale operations that organise collections of food and clothes to be sent out on an ad hoc basis. Even though established with the best of intentions, the stuff they send is often inappropriate and clog up the system.

[sylvan8798]

I want to donate money to help the Hatians. Is the Red Cross the group to give it to? I remember the scandal when donations to help 9/11 victims weren't all used for that.

I support Doctors WIthout Borders, which works around the world. Apparently all 3 of their Haitian hospitals have collapsed and been abandoned, and the doctors are working in parking lots.

[grayman]

From PZ Meyer's blog (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/01/haiti_needs_help.php) a link (http://twitoaster.com/country-us/jimmilles/pat-robertson-on-cbn-just-said-haiti-has-had-so-many-troubles-bc-they-swore-an-oath-2-the-devil-in-19th-c-2-free-them-from-the-french-wtf/) to this comment: Pat Robertson on CBN just said Haiti has had so many troubles bc they swore an oath 2 the Devil in 19th c. 2 free them from the French. #WTF

[dudalb]

Port Au Prince is in ruins. The death toll is going to be staggering.
Yeah, gallows humor is not appropriate.
Yeah, the way the media is making this an "event" is pretty obnoxious.
Next step, some showbiz "Celeb" flying to Hispanola to show his concern. I am sure Sean Penn,who has a history of this, is on his way now.

[dudalb]

That's a powerful earthquake. I didn't know Haiti was so seismically active.

The whole Carribean is an seismic danger zone. The destruction of Port Royale in Jamaica and Mount Pele show that.
And one area which is going to have a devestating earthquake one day, because they are so totally unprepared for it, is the Mississippi valley. They forget about the biggest earthquake in US recorded history happened there circa 1806. And that is just a few seconds ago in seismic time.

[Vorticity]

From PZ Meyer's blog (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/01/haiti_needs_help.php) a link (http://twitoaster.com/country-us/jimmilles/pat-robertson-on-cbn-just-said-haiti-has-had-so-many-troubles-bc-they-swore-an-oath-2-the-devil-in-19th-c-2-free-them-from-the-french-wtf/) to this comment:

Jesus *********** Christ, Robertson is becoming the Phelps of television*. 'God hates Haiti'.

* Caveat: Assuming he really made the comment.

[Vorticity]

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.earthquake/index.html) is now reporting a death toll in the hundreds of thousands.

[grayman]

* Caveat: Assuming he really made the comment.

True that. If corroboration is made I'm sure it will be reported.

[Alareth]

Jesus *********** Christ, Robertson is becoming the Phelps of television*. 'God hates Haiti'.

* Caveat: Assuming he really made the comment.


Pat makes the comment around the 6 minute mark here (http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/January/Powerful-Quake-Hits-Impoverished-Haiti/)

[Vorticity]

Jesus *********** Christ, Robertson is becoming the Phelps of television*. 'God hates Haiti'.

* Caveat: Assuming he really made the comment.

But then, of course, this kind of thing doesn't really matter.

The Red Cross is mobilizing. You can make a donation online right now via this link (http://american.redcross.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ntld_main&s_src=RSG000000000&s_subsrc=RCO_Donate_OnlineGiving).

ETA:

Says P.Z. Myers:
If it makes you angry, turn your outrage into something constructive and use it to motivate you to donate to Haitian relief first. Deal with the evil scumbag Robertson later.

Yeah.

[JihadJane]

From the White House Blog (http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/01/13/help-haiti):


~~~~~~~~~
You can also help immediately by donating to the Red Cross to assist the relief effort. Contribute online here, or donate $10 to be charged to your cell phone bill by texting "HAITI" to "90999."
~~~~~~~~~

[bethysunport]

I support Doctors WIthout Borders, which works around the world. Apparently all 3 of their Haitian hospitals have collapsed and been abandoned, and the doctors are working in parking lots.

A friend of mine is going to Haiti on a Doctors Without Borders mission in February, I wonder if they'll be going now.

[Nursefoxfire]

A friend of mine is going to Haiti on a Doctors Without Borders mission in February, I wonder if they'll be going now.

There's a link on their main page where people can donate:

http://doctorswithoutborders.org/

[dudalb]

And the country might be going into total chaos. This is going to be one of those situations where even Angels of Mercy need Military Escorts.

[Vorticity]

And the country might be going into total chaos. This is going to be one of those situations where even Angels of Mercy need Military Escorts.

Along those lines:


Edmond Mulet, the U.N. assistant secretary-general for peacekeeping operations, told CNN that the National Penitentiary collapsed and the inmates escaped, prompting worries about looting by escapees.

Built in 1915, the prison was overcrowded. Enlarged to a total capacity of 1,200, it held 3,908 inmates in December, the U.S. State Department has said.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.earthquake/index.html

[dudalb]

You can bet the ready force at Camp LaJeune in North Carolina have gotten a heads up to prepare for emergency deployment.

[Fiona]

There was a telephone interview on radio 4's news programme tonight with a woman who runs an orphanage outside port au prince. Their building survived without much damage but she reportd that much of the city is flat. She said that it hit about 5 pm local time and was hopeful that many will have been outdoors because apparently much of life is lived outdoors including cooking.

Nevertheless she was clearly pretty traumatised and expected thousand and thousands of deaths. Her main concern was that they have food for the children in the orphanage for about a week and she does not think there is much chance of getting any more after that

They were still getting aftershocks while she was being interviewed and that was about 3:30 GMT today

some bbc footage here

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8457921.stm

[Nursefoxfire]

There was a telephone interview on radio 4's news programme tonight with a woman who runs an orphanage outside port au prince. Their building survived without much damage but she reportd that much of the city is flat. She said that it hit about 5 pm local time and was hopeful that many will have been outdoors because apparently much of life is lived outdoors including cooking.

Nevertheless she was clearly pretty traumatised and expected thousand and thousands of deaths. Her main concern was that they have food for the children in the orphanage for about a week and she does not think there is much chance of getting any more after that

They were still getting aftershocks while she was being interviewed and that was about 3:30 GMT today

I think I saw that: God's Littlest Angels, or some such name? She said her son (14) was at school down in P-a-P and wasn't able to make his way home until about 10 pm last night. I'd have gone out of my MIND if my son was in that situation!

Another news clip I saw was about the passengers of the plane that took off right as the quake was hitting. Imagine flying out of the airport as the ground and buildings crumble away underneath you...shades of "2012" or "The Langoliers"!

[Fiona]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/

the interview is here for those who can receive it

[korenyx]

I just tried to get to UMCOR (United Methodist Committee on Relief) and the site is overwhelmed.
Methodist workteams have been helping in Haiti for years and the church I attend sends a team down almost every year.

[Drewbot]

From what I've gathered from here and there on the internet is that a hospital in Port Au Prince collapsed as well as the parliament building and a 7 story building. There's also tens of dollars worth of damages in the shanty towns...

Dude, this is no time for a joke.

[Morrigan]

Yeah, "too soon" and all that.

I want to donate money to help the Hatians. Is the Red Cross the group to give it to? I remember the scandal when donations to help 9/11 victims weren't all used for that.

I would suggest Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders). Scandal-free and a spotless reputation as far as I know, plus they are completely without any political or religious affiliation. They brave the most awful terrains of the world to help people, I don't know how they find that kind of courage.

[bookitty]

I want to donate money to help the Hatians. Is the Red Cross the group to give it to? I remember the scandal when donations to help 9/11 victims weren't all used for that.

There was one small scandal. Immediately after 9/11, the Red Cross got too many people volunteering to donate blood. Instead of turning them away, they discarded the extra. Had there been another attack right away, there may have been a blood shortage as people who had already given might not have donated again. I seem to remember that this was a local issue and only happened in New York. Not very good planning, but something that can be easily corrected.

There was also a ranting chain letter making the rounds after 9/11 accusing the Red Cross of keeping donations but it was nonsense.

Personally, I tend to give blood to the Red Cross and give my cash to Doctors Without Borders. http://doctorswithoutborders.org/

eta: I see Morrigan beat me to it.

[DDWW]

Sad news. Been there. Good people, bad government.

Besides food, water, medical supplies, etc. send hope. Always been in short supply there.

The USA will lead the massive relief effort, and foot most of the bill. Plus many Christian organizations here are gearing up.

That is the way we are.

Many other countries will still think we are evil.

So it goes.

Best hope then for the people of Haiti.

DD (Yes, my check is in the mail)WW

[Skeptic]

This looks really serious.

It looks worse and worse, with thousands now feared dead

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.earthquake/index.html) is now reporting a death toll in the hundreds of thousands.

(My sense of humor getting the best of me -- don't read if easily offended)

Damn! I knew I should have invested in dead Haitians when they went IPO.

Seriously, worse than a nuclear bomb, if accurate. Israel sent a team (unfortunately we have lots of experience with reacting to disasters) and people are donating. I will donate what I can tomorrow (it is now late at night).

[commandlinegamer]

They are virtually on top of the junction of two tectonic plates. Not good.

But what of the Dominican Republic which occupies the eastern half of Hispaniola?

[dudalb]

They are virtually on top of the junction of two tectonic plates. Not good.

But what of the Dominican Republic which occupies the eastern half of Hispaniola?

Not damaged, apparently.
One of the wierd thing about quakes is that they can be really local in their effects.
In the 1989 SF quake, blocks were heavily damaged, but other blocks not a quarter of a mile away had little or not damage.

[Pardalis]

I can't imagine what it must feel like to have one's own parliament destroyed before your eyes. I hope they can keep somewhat of a government, and keep a minimum of security there. I don't know how they are going to recover from this, politically, economically, psychologically...

[Almo]

Haiti is the last place that needs an earthquake. they have enough trouble already. :(

[dudalb]

Hell, the Haitian Government before this could not provide a minimum of security,which is why there is a UN peace keeping force there. You think they can now?

[dudalb]

I understand that Rush Limbaugh has made some really outrageous statements about the Earthquake that are worse then Robinson's.
Maybe the people who were rejoicing at the news of his heart attack were right after all if this is true. And I was one of those criticising them.

[Pardalis]

Hell, the Haitian Government before this could not provide a minimum of security,which is why there is a UN peace keeping force there. You think they can now?

Good point.

[Doghouse Reilly]

nt

[Doghouse Reilly]

Dudalb said "I understand that Rush Limbaugh has made some really outrageous statements about the Earthquake that are worse then Robinson's."


Do you have a link for that?

I just heard on the news that this might be "the worst disaster in human history." That was shocking to see up on the screen.

[KingMerv00]

I understand that Rush Limbaugh has made some really outrageous statements about the Earthquake that are worse then Robinson's.

What did he supposedly say?

Edit: I can't listen to this (http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201001130018) right now but it is supposed to contain those outrageous statements. Let me know if I am wrong.

[dudalb]

What did he supposedly say?

Edit: I can't listen to this (http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201001130018) right now but it is supposed to contain those outrageous statements. Let me know if I am wrong.


Neither can I. But what I have been reading, he is arguing against the US sending aid and accusing Obama of using this is boost his stadning among "dark skinned blacks".
If true, then Limbaugh should just start wearing a white hooded sheet and honest about it.

[Hutch]

Already sent a contribution into Doctors Without Borders, may send more if I can.

Once again, proof that no matter the mighty works of man, the planet will go on and do what it damn well pleases, when and how it wants.

The fear now should be epidemics; hopefully the basics can be brought in quickly.

And Darth Rotor predicted the US Navy would be on the way; no million for you but good call:

From NY Daily News: A Coast Guard cutter with the ability to replace the destroyed air traffic control tower at the Port-au-Prince airport arrived Wednesday morning so planeloads of aid can begin to land.

Gen. Douglas Fraser said the U.S. Navy carrier Carl Vinson and its battle group are heading to Haiti, primarily to serve as a helicopter landing base.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/haiti/2010/01/13/2010-01-13_haiti_earthquake_haitians_race_to_aide_survivor s_.html#ixzz0cXIGSUjz

[KingMerv00]

Neither can I. But what I have been reading, he is arguing against the US sending aid and accusing Obama of using this is boost his stadning among "dark skinned blacks".
If true, then Limbaugh should just start wearing a white hooded sheet and honest about it.

I don't think that comment makes him racist. I think it makes him a bigot.

[dudalb]

I think your anger is misaimed. I don't think that comment makes him racist. It makes him bigoted against liberals.

Nonsense. Rush is playing the race card.

[KingMerv00]

Nonsense. Rush is playing the race card.

My post above was partly tongue in cheek.

He is insulting liberals by saying that Obama can't do a kind act unless it gets him political support.

It could be racist too of course.

[Metullus]

Missionary friends who have been there for 2 generations have not checked in. No word at all. Nine in all including 3 children.

S**t.

[Pardalis]

I'm sorry, but could you please leave your Liberal/Republican bickerings to another thread? This is about the Haïtians.

[Fiona]

:(

I hope it is just that communication is out Metullus

[fuelair]

There was one small scandal. Immediately after 9/11, the Red Cross got too many people volunteering to donate blood. Instead of turning them away, they discarded the extra. Had there been another attack right away, there may have been a blood shortage as people who had already given might not have donated again. I seem to remember that this was a local issue and only happened in New York. Not very good planning, but something that can be easily corrected.

There was also a ranting chain letter making the rounds after 9/11 accusing the Red Cross of keeping donations but it was nonsense.

Personally, I tend to give blood to the Red Cross and give my cash to Doctors Without Borders. http://doctorswithoutborders.org/

eta: I see Morrigan beat me to it.Yes, but you gave a contact!!!:)

[fuelair]

And this takes you direct to the Doctors without Borders donation page (no paypal, just credit cards, though.):https://donate.doctorswithoutborders.org/SSLPage.aspx?pid=197&hbc=1&source=ADR1001E1D01

[Travis]

It's my understanding that buildings there are reinforced against heavy rains which may have made them earthquake deathtraps. Because of the shattered nature of the country we'll probably never know the actual death toll.

[MaGZ]

CNN is falling all over themselves in a frenzy. There is actually news that is not some stupid celebrity or politician behaving badly. Anderson Cooper is on the air almost boasting that he's going to board a late night flight and try and drive to the capital overland via the Dominican Republic.

Hi ho silver!

The only reason CNN is covering this story as a serious news is because the country and our president is Black.

Compare the coverage to the tsunami several years ago. Wolf Blitzer was not begging for you to make contributions back then.

[portlandatheist]

I've been watching the Jim Lehrer news hour this week and they have been airing a series on economic development in Haiti and its slow but hopeful recovery from a series of bad governments along with the work the UN is doing and a recent visit by Bill Clinton and business leaders.
This tragedy has happened just as this country has been picking itself up from its bootstraps and there was some hope.
@Metullus: I hope your friends are alright but just don't have access to communications. Let us know if you hear anything new.

[MaGZ]

I'm sorry, but could you please leave your Liberal/Republican bickerings to another thread? This is about the Haïtians.

How many Haitians can you take up in Montreal?

[Metullus]

:(

I hope it is just that communication is out MetullusThat is our hope as well. I just hate "wait and see".

[alfaniner]

I just knew some religious ****wad would claim some "divine retribution". I had already heard thanks to God for sparing some people.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Man--this is really awful. They're saying the death toll might reach 100,000.

[dudalb]

It's like a warzone in what is left of Port Au Prince after dark.
CNN is reporting the 82nd Airborne Ready Regiment has gotten its orders, and is going to be going in as quickly as possible Security is going to have be established before any real heavy duty relief efforts can begin.
Apparently the UN Peace Keeping force was almost wiped out. At least a 100 missing.

[kuroyume0161]

Man--this is really awful. They're saying the death toll might reach 100,000.

Actually, there are speculations of hundreds of thousands dead. Port-au-Prince is (was) a city with a population of two million - many in abject poverty unfortunately. If people weren't killed by the earthquake and aftershocks outright it is assured that many will die from being buried, without water/food/medical care in the next weeks. There is no infrastructure left (of what little there was) in Haiti. The hospitals collapsed. People are digging survivors out by hand. False rumors of tsunami/floods are causing mass panic.

Yes, this is truly catastrophic. As someone else mentioned, we are at the mercy of natural phenomena. We should live with that little voice in the back of our minds 'all glory is fleeting' so that we can be more cognizant and nicer to each other (before the bad stuff happens!).

[Skeptic]

This tragedy has happened just as this country has been picking itself up from its bootstraps and there was some hope.

Ah, but that's because GOD HATES THEM for supporting Napoleon in 1809 or something.

By the way, did the Iranian clerics weight in on how this is "Allah's punishment" to the western world already?

Would be interesting to compare Buchanan and the Ayatollahs over this.

[Skeptic]

This disaster shows how we are still puny compared to natural phenomena. If someone exploded a nuclear bomb over Haiti, the damage would probably have been less.

[Skeptic]

I just knew some religious ****wad would claim some "divine retribution". I had already heard thanks to God for sparing some people.

To be fair, people who thank God for their survival might be illogical, but on a totally different moral level than those who justify God for sending the disaster in the first place.

[Travis]

NBC is reporting estimates of 500,000 dead which would make this like the second or third deadliest non pandemic natural disaster ever.

[geni]

This disaster shows how we are still puny compared to natural phenomena. If someone exploded a nuclear bomb over Haiti, the damage would probably have been less.

Depends on the bomb but the damage is significantly less than some of the larger fussion weapons would do.

[Professor Yaffle]

Some posts moved to AAH. Please stay on topic.

[William Parcher]

NBC is reporting estimates of 500,000 dead


Dead right now, or will be dead?

[Skeptic]

Depends on the bomb but the damage is significantly less than some of the larger fussion weapons would do.

Correct, but I was thinking of a "Hiroshima" style bomb.

[Travis]

Dead right now, or will be dead?

"Might be dead." Interpret that as you will. I hope it is just an estimate how many might die because something might be done to stop it as opposed to already being dead.

[Fiona]

http://www.dec.org.uk/

UK disaster appeal now open for donations

[ejk]

I want to donate money to help the Hatians. Is the Red Cross the group to give it to? I remember the scandal when donations to help 9/11 victims weren't all used for that.

The Red Cross is almost certainly a good place to steer donations. They will be doing huge amounts of disaster relief work, as will Doctors Without Borders, CARE, and Oxfam, any of which is probably a good place to send money.

IIRC, the Red Cross "scandal" was that they raised money around 9/11 implying that it would be used solely for that, but leaving wiggle room in the fine print. When people found out they were not using all the associated funds for 9/11 relief, there was a backlash. I suspect they've learned their lesson on that front by now. In any case, it is unlikely that you'd find an organization that big that has absolutely no problems in its past and is run perfectly. The Red Cross and others I mentioned are all pretty well-run groups that do a lot of good work.

One of the things that has most impressed me about any organization's fundraising ever was when Doctors Without Borders stopped accepting contributions earmarked for tsunami relief when they got to the point that they couldn't effectively deploy any more funds.

That said, I'd like to add a plea here. It is tempting to give money earmarked for relief in Haiti, because the devastation is so appalling and it makes us feel good to think we're doing something to help by designating a contribution for that purpose. But this is not the most effective way of giving. Please try to make unrestricted gifts to any charity you choose to support. They will be spending huge amounts of resources on relief to Haiti, and any additional funds that come in the door increase what they have available to spend on that. But they are also responding to other needs and other crises, both today and in the unforeseen future. When donations are restricted, the charity cannot use them to support work elsewhere, even if the need is greater. If you trust the organization enough to give them your money, trust them to use good judgment in spending it.

[alfaniner]

To be fair, people who thank God for their survival might be illogical, but on a totally different moral level than those who justify God for sending the disaster in the first place.

Yes. I just meant that in situations like this, we always hear these types of stories, with the addition of the "miracle" one.

[Darth Rotor]

The only reason CNN is covering this story as a serious news is because the country and our president is Black.
No.

The news coverage is due to the natural disaster and the immense body count (estimated) from a 7.0 earthquake. A 7.0 Richter earthquake anywhere in the world tends to get a lot of coverage, due to the media's "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality.

Not even a nice try, MaGZ.

Also, you might be interested to note that Haiti was the second nation in the Western Hemisphere, after the US, to throw off the Imperial European Yoke. They tossed the French out in 1804. I would think that your anti-imperial sensibilities would allow you some empathy for the people of Haiti, and their history.

DR

[Brainster]

Kind of an odd lede to this story (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/4-more-lynn-students-located-parents-comforted-by-178309.html) about some college students in Haiti:

It was perhaps the best email Joan Prudhomme has ever gotten: "Julie Prudhomme wishes to tell you that I'm ok and will contact you later."

"Perhaps"? I'd suspect "easily" or "surely" or "by a unimaginable margin" would be closer to the truth.

[Undesired Walrus]

The US is sending up to 3,500 soldiers and 2,200 marines to Haiti to help rescue efforts in the wake of the devastating earthquake.

President Barack Obama pledged one of the biggest relief efforts in recent US history and said Haiti would "not be forgotten" in its hour of need.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8459444.stm

America rocks!


How many troops were sent after the Tsunami btw? (ETA: Just found out. About 15,000)

[Arcade22]

The Swedish government has apparently given 900.000 USD in aid to Haiti. :(

[ejk]

The Swedish government has apparently given 900.000 USD in aid to Haiti. :(

Why the frowney face?

[Undesired Walrus]

Why the frowney face?

They are black.

[Fiona]

Why the frowney face?

Cos it should have been Kroner on grounds of monetary purity ?

[Arcade22]

Why the frowney face?

Because i am against 'foreign aid'.

[ejk]

Politics can wait; starving people can't.

Of course,but it may be important to educate people about the history in order to build the political will to put resources into the relief effort. Especially when you've already got people like Rush Limbaugh trying to turn it into a political issue.

[Francesca R]

Because i am against 'foreign aid'.How about if Sweden had some calamity that decked Stockholm and killed a few hundred thousand of your citizens? Would you lobby your government to spurn any offers of financial assistance from overseas?

[Arcade22]

How about if Sweden had some calamity that decked Stockholm and killed a few hundred thousand of your citizens? Would you lobby your government to spurn any offers of financial assistance from overseas?

No.

[Francesca R]

I don't believe you're against foreign aid then.

[Locknar]

Folks...lets stay on topic. The political discussion related to Hati and the earthquake has been moved to here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=164824

[Arcade22]

I don't believe you're against foreign aid then.

Well, i am against the Swedish government handing out aid to other countries. What other governments do is up to them.

[truethat]

What the hell is wrong with people? I'm seriously stunned by some of the comments in this thread.

When people need help, you help them any way you can. That's it.:hit:

[dudalb]

Out of X number of people, Y are going to be Alpha Hotels. Basic fact of life.

[Arcade22]

What the hell is wrong with people? I'm seriously stunned by some of the comments in this thread.

When people need help, you help them any way you can. That's it.:hit:

I'd rather help Swedes than Haitians...

[truethat]

Then you divide people into categories. I'd rather help people than not help people. What a stupid argument.

[Travis]

I'd rather help Swedes than Haitians...

I'd rather help people with empathy.

[Arcade22]

I'd rather help people with empathy.

Well it's a good thing that i have empathy! I just have more empathy with Swedes.

[Pardalis]

This is about Haïti, maybe you should leave this thread?

[dudalb]

I'd rather help Swedes Nordic White Aryans than Haitians...

Fixed that for you.

[Pardalis]

How about if Sweden had some calamity that decked Stockholm and killed a few hundred thousand of your citizens? Would you lobby your government to spurn any offers of financial assistance from overseas?


This is a good exercise in empathy, BTW. Since tuesday, I keep trying to imagine Ottawa's parliament destroyed, hospitals running out of supplies, no more water, and bodies piling up the streets around where I live.

Truly unimaginable. :(

[headscratcher4]

"Horrific stories of death.Death is everywhere.Death is all over PauP.doors as stretchers.Camionettes as ambulances."

Tweeted by musician/Hotelier Richie Morris from Haiti in the last hour.

So horrifying.

[dudalb]

The Main Dock in Port Au Prince is a wreck,ships can't use it to land supplies.
The US Marine/Navy Amphibious units on their way are going to get the workout of their lives,since operating without a dock is one of the things they are trained to do.

[Pardalis]

CNN is also saying the airport is running out of ramp space.

[Drewbot]

Because i am against 'foreign aid'.

Surely you can spare the 900 bucks "900.000" that you sent.

[William Parcher]

Americans, please go to the airport. No, don't go to the airport. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/14/haiti.updates/index.html?hpt=T2)


5:59 p.m. -- U.S. State Department clarifies: Americans do not go to airport now. Seek safe shelter.

5:45 p.m. -- U.S. State Department: About 160 American citizens are at airport waiting for evacuation to Guantanamo. U.S. has heard from less than 100 other Americans. Two C-130s at airport, prepared to evacuate American citizens.

5:36 p.m. -- U.S. State Department asks journalists to get out the word: U.S. citizens in Haiti who want to be evacuated -- go to airport.

[stilicho]

Surely you can spare the 900 bucks "900.000" that you sent.

Very deserving of a donation of any kind.

It looks like the casualty toll may be lower than original estimates, too, but the already frail infrastructure has been badly damaged.

[William Parcher]

12:23 p.m. -- FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown says the Haitian government is not accepting incoming flights because ramp space at the Port au Prince airport is full and no fuel is available. The FAA isn't giving take-off clearances for Haiti-bound flights until space becomes available. There are 10 civilian and and one military aircraft in a holding pattern, waiting to get into Port-au-Prince.

Loitering in the air eats fuel. They have none at the airport.


3:02 p.m. -- Lindy Lincoln, a program officer for the American Red Cross, says Tuesday's earthquake destroyed about 10 percent of houses in Port-au-Prince -- dwellings of about 200,000 people.

Only 1 in 10 homes were destroyed?

[Rolfe]

http://www.dec.org.uk/

UK disaster appeal now open for donations


This is absolutely dreadful. Especially now.

Just a few weeks ago I had a letter from Christian Aid (one of the DEC charities) saying that due to the recession they had much less money at their disposal than they had anticipated, and that unless they received a fair bit of moolah before February they were going to have to sit down and decide who not to help (of people they had already pledged to help).

I sent them some dough, of course, and ticked the box for "do what you think best with the money" (why do they give donors any other option for goodness sake?), but this does not bode well. If they were that strapped for cash in late December, I don't suppose they are the only charity in that position.

In November I took part in two performances of Monteverdi's Vespers in aid of a charity providing school meals for children in third world countries. I discovered the wife of our local councillor is heavily involved with the charity (not abroad though, thankfully). I now read in the newspaper that several of that charity's staff are missing in Haiti.

I hope they can get help through to these poor people very soon, it looks appalling.

Rolfe.

[Travis]

Loitering in the air eats fuel. They have none at the airport.

The USMC will be bringing fuel with them.


Only 1 in 10 homes were destroyed?

I'd be willing to bet a significantly larger portion were severely damaged to the point of being useless.

[dudalb]

The 82nd Airborne has an advance company on the ground in Haiti, and a full batallion will arrrive tommorow. That should help the security situation, which is going to have to be taken care of before major relief efforts can really begin. It should keep any ambitious Haitian Gang Boss from playing Somali War Lord, which is a major concern.

[The Drain]

...
Only 1 in 10 homes were destroyed?

The figure is higher than that.

In the area of Port-au-Prince where our office building was flattened, I'm told that 97% of housing stock was destroyed. Our country manager (who was trapped in the building for a while) adds that in the area where he lives, further out of town, the destruction rate was about 45%.

Clearly there're differences between geographical areas - which is to be expected. But it's also worth saying that the two areas he's talking about are made up of well-built concrete buildings.

The majority of people live in badly built houses on steep hillsides... This is the third night for survivors since the disaster. A BBC reporter said this evening that while aid was piling up at the airport, he personally hadn't seen signs of it getting through to the people who needed it yet. It's a difficult job, I know, but I do hope the help gets through to where it's needed soon.

[dudalb]

The figure is higher than that.

In the area of Port-au-Prince where our office building was flattened, I'm told that 97% of housing stock was destroyed. Our country manager (who was trapped in the building for a while) adds that in the area where he lives, further out of town, the destruction rate was about 45%.

Clearly there're differences between geographical areas - which is to be expected. But it's also worth saying that the two areas he's talking about are made up of well-built concrete buildings.

The majority of people live in badly built houses on steep hillsides... This is the third night for survivors since the disaster. A BBC reporter said this evening that while aid was piling up at the airport, he personally hadn't seen signs of it getting through to the people who needed it yet. It's a difficult job, I know, but I do hope the help gets through to where it's needed soon.



The streets are blocked by rubble, and until the heavy machinery for street clearing gets there, getting supplies from the airport to the people who need is going to be the biggest problem they have. And hand removing the rubble is not only ineffective, but dangerous.

[Travis]

Obama has pledged $100 million.

[dudalb]

Obama has pledged $100 million.


And that is just for starters, let alone how much we will spend on Haiti indirectly. I am betting the bill for the Military Deployment there will be in the Billions.

[Thunder]

i have already donated $20 to the Red Cross by texting "Haiti" to 90999.

[LibraryLady]

Post's Content: I have moved several posts and infracted several people for not staying on topic after a mod box was posted. Please stay on topic. And by the way, see my signature.

[kuroyume0161]

I've donated $200 to the RedCross (my financial situation really makes it difficult to do much more but I will reevaluate it in the coming weeks to see if more can be spared).

This is such a mess. The main seaport is simply unusable. The airport is completely insufficient (a check on Google maps only shows two airports in Haiti and not sure of the capacity of the second further away one - Cap Haitien Airport). Is the Dominican Republic allowing use of its airports for landing/offloading supplies (Aeropuerto Internacional del Cibao (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?cid=5672669791076672464&q=haiti+airports&hl=en&cd=7&cad=src:pplink&ei=D91QS-arFoOANtLLgIwN&sig2=mgmcXboj2JTFfNyDfpiSpw))? And time is very quickly running out for trapped survivors - without food, water, or heavy equipment to move large, heavy rubble available.

Think about the logistics of supplying water and food for a couple million people for weeks or months. This catastrophe will take many years for recovery of any degree.

[dudalb]

THe Second Airport is not going to help much...it is not made for handling much above small airliners..the "Puddle Jumpers".
I am betting an US Air Force Red Horse Unit..who specialize in building emergency runways...have gotten their deployment orders.

[Redtail]

THe Second Airport is not going to help much...it is not made for handling much above small airliners..the "Puddle Jumpers".
I am betting an US Air Force Red Horse Unit..who specialize in building emergency runways...have gotten their deployment orders.

Ah! That was the unit I was trying to remember earlier.

[aviolet4u]

I was watching BBC news yesterday and they said 7000 bodies were all put into one mass grave, OMG R.I.P so sad.

[Redtail]

I just saw a report that the date that the MREs were packaged is being confused for the expiration date so people are refusing the food.

[fuelair]

What the hell is wrong with people? I'm seriously stunned by some of the comments in this thread.

When people need help, you help them any way you can. That's it.:hit:

That pretty much covers it.:)

[shuize]

I just saw a report that the date that the MREs were packaged is being confused for the expiration date so people are refusing the food.


Just wait. I don't think that's going to be a problem for long.

[Travis]

I've donated $200 to the RedCross (my financial situation really makes it difficult to do much more but I will reevaluate it in the coming weeks to see if more can be spared).

This is such a mess. The main seaport is simply unusable. The airport is completely insufficient (a check on Google maps only shows two airports in Haiti and not sure of the capacity of the second further away one - Cap Haitien Airport). Is the Dominican Republic allowing use of its airports for landing/offloading supplies (Aeropuerto Internacional del Cibao (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?cid=5672669791076672464&q=haiti+airports&hl=en&cd=7&cad=src:pplink&ei=D91QS-arFoOANtLLgIwN&sig2=mgmcXboj2JTFfNyDfpiSpw))? And time is very quickly running out for trapped survivors - without food, water, or heavy equipment to move large, heavy rubble available.


The UK flew rescue workers into that airport but then discovered they had no way into Haiti itself from there.

[fuelair]

I've donated $200 to the RedCross (my financial situation really makes it difficult to do much more but I will reevaluate it in the coming weeks to see if more can be spared).

This is such a mess. The main seaport is simply unusable. The airport is completely insufficient (a check on Google maps only shows two airports in Haiti and not sure of the capacity of the second further away one - Cap Haitien Airport). Is the Dominican Republic allowing use of its airports for landing/offloading supplies (Aeropuerto Internacional del Cibao (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?cid=5672669791076672464&q=haiti+airports&hl=en&cd=7&cad=src:pplink&ei=D91QS-arFoOANtLLgIwN&sig2=mgmcXboj2JTFfNyDfpiSpw))? And time is very quickly running out for trapped survivors - without food, water, or heavy equipment to move large, heavy rubble available.

Think about the logistics of supplying water and food for a couple million people for weeks or months. This catastrophe will take many years for recovery of any degree.
And, unfortunately, all there will be lucky if they have a remotely useable distribution system up within a week or two. I also suspect the people trapped will be dead well before the heavy equiptment can get to them.:(:( And, if the stories today (flashback to the N. O. stadium in Katrina)of groups of young, machete wielding guys wandering the streets "surviving" turn out true I hope they will be used for target practice.:mad:

[fuelair]

This is a good exercise in empathy, BTW. Since tuesday, I keep trying to imagine Ottawa's parliament destroyed, hospitals running out of supplies, no more water, and bodies piling up the streets around where I live.

Truly unimaginable. :(

But, Canada has decent roads and potential staging support areas - a real infrastructure. If exactly the same event happened in Canada over the same amount of territory the conditions would allow for much swifter response in pretty much every way - unless a very big blizzard was involved simultaneously. Same for most of the US and most of Europe. Outside, less so.

[gethane]

But, Canada has decent roads and potential staging support areas - a real infrastructure. If exactly the same event happened in Canada over the same amount of territory the conditions would allow for much swifter response in pretty much every way - unless a very big blizzard was involved simultaneously. Same for most of the US and most of Europe. Outside, less so.

Maybe most of the US, but that obviously did not happen after hurricane Katrina.

[dudalb]

And, unfortunately, all there will be lucky if they have a remotely useable distribution system up within a week or two. I also suspect the people trapped will be dead well before the heavy equiptment can get to them.:(:( And, if the stories today (flashback to the N. O. stadium in Katrina)of groups of young, machete wielding guys wandering the streets "surviving" turn out true I hope they will be used for target practice.:mad:


The 82 Airborne will oblige.

Seriosly, I think one of the major security concerns is that some of the Haitian Gang Leaders have the idea of playing "Somali WarLord" and try to seize or shake down the charity groups.

[shuize]

PORT-AU-PRINCE (Reuters) - Angry Haitians set up roadblocks with corpses in Port-au-Prince to protest at the delay in emergency aid reaching them after a devastating earthquake, an eyewitness said


One of the comments I read about this summed it up nicely: Protesting delays in humanitarian aid with roadblocks is like protesting fire with gasoline.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60D6F920100114

[Arcade22]

This is about Haïti, maybe you should leave this thread?

And? Do you have a problem with someone disagreeing with you? Can you give me a reason why the Swedish government should send aid to Haiti when that money could go to Swedes?

[Redtail]

And? Do you have a problem with someone disagreeing with you? Can you give me a reason why the Swedish government should send aid to Haiti when that money could go to Swedes?

Because people help each other when disaster strikes.

[MaGZ]

The 82 Airborne will oblige.

Seriosly, I think one of the major security concerns is that some of the Haitian Gang Leaders have the idea of playing "Somali WarLord" and try to seize or shake down the charity groups.

At some point the US military will have to engage the machete-wielding Haitians.

[Thunder]

i expect the situation to get much worse before it gets any better.

it seems a worse situation could not happen to a worse country.

thank God its not hurricane season.

p.s....THIS is why we should all have a good amount of water, canned food, and dry food, stored at all times. at least 7 days worth.

[dudalb]

At some point the US military will have to engage the machete-wielding Haitians.

And they will go the way the Mauser Wielding Nazis did.

Another reminder to stay on topic.

[fuelair]

Maybe most of the US, but that obviously did not happen after hurricane Katrina.

I did say exactly the same, I think. Water makes a gigantic difference - as snow, heavy rain, flood. Unless an earthquake brings gigantic flooding somehow (Reelfoot Lake comes to mind), it still is dry and landings are possible on the generally large road system. Structures are built to higher standards - etc. Tidal wave, I will also give you if less than 24 hour warning - but with that, you only need to get coast population inland by about 10-12 miles.

[ejk]

Library Lady beat me to this with her comment about her sig., but I've got a couple e-mails from secular groups about giving options that people here may be interested. Of course, if you prefer to give directly to the organization of your choice, ignore this.


The Center for Inquiry is accepting disaster-relief donations through its S.H.A.R.E. program to support those providing care to the survivors of the 7.0 earthquake that struck Jan. 12 near the capital city of Port-au-Prince, Haiti.
All donations—100 percent with no operating costs retained—will be sent directly to the secular aid group Doctors Without Borders, which suffered the loss of all three of its medical facilities and is working against difficulties to provide the basics of first-aid care and stabilization.


Link:
https://secure.ga1.org/05/share_earthquake_in_haiti

Also, the Secular Students Alliance (who e-mail me for some unknown reason) report that the Foundation Beyond Belief has recommended a number of secular charities doing relief work in Haiti.

http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/blog/1

If you click on "read more" they have direct links to the recommended groups.

The situation is just so mind-bogglingly horrifying. It's going to get worse over the coming days, we can only hope that what help we can send alleviates some of the suffering.

[fuelair]

Not at all trying to abuse/not obey a mod-box and I am the one who brought up the machete wielders. I brought it up because it is specifically stated by the news services (as of 3:30 -4:15 on MSNBC and CNN today) as occuring and doing so as a direct result
of the earthquake disaster that is also responsible for all the other actions/non-actions being noted. As such, it must be taken into account by the agencies going in as well as what is left of the Haitian government. Not to mention, for any who have knowledge of Haiti's history, machete and other weapon users have a rather colorful history in Haiti - as in Tonton Macoutes - of unlawful actions against citizens and aid persons in the past. This would not be a new thing. Unfortunately. But disasters often bring things like this out among those so disposed. I prefer disposing of them.

No derail of any kind was meant/suggested/intended by this it is purely here because it is happening in Haiti (per news services and directly from the disaster and it's aftereffects.

[Pardalis]

And? Do you have a problem with someone disagreeing with you? Can you give me a reason why the Swedish government should send aid to Haiti when that money could go to Swedes?

If you want to talk about Sweden, start a thread about it. I won't be joining you.

If you don't want to give to Haïti, then don't, you're free not to.

If the purpose of your contributions to this thread was to show that you're a heartless bigot, then you have made your point.

[Redtail]

Wow, these missionaries (the Carys) are the grandparents of a very good friend of ours.

http://www.clevelandbanner.com/index.cfm?event=news.view&id=32FA4D97-19B9-E2E2-67E1AD24E894DA16

Glad they're ok.

[Rolfe]

And? Do you have a problem with someone disagreeing with you? Can you give me a reason why the Swedish government should send aid to Haiti when that money could go to Swedes?


Because the people in Haiti are starving, with no shelter, many of them have severe injuries that are not being treated, and many of them are trapped under tons of collapsed masonry.

Even the poorest people in Sweden are better off than that.

People are people. Can you give me a reason why you should refuse to help people in need just because the're a few thousand miles away from you?

Rolfe.

[Francesca R]

And? Do you have a problem with someone disagreeing with you? Can you give me a reason why the Swedish government should send aid to Haiti when that money could go to Swedes?Probably it would be that the preferences of a large majority of Swedish society would be for its government to transfer aid to Haiti. Are you protesting through any political channels?

ETA--And the reason why a large majority of Swedes might want that could reside in their ethics/values

Do you merely disagree, or do you fail to get it at all?

[Arcade22]

Can you give me a reason why you should refuse to help people in need just because the're a few thousand miles away from you?

Because i believe that the money, resources and welfare that the Swedish people have amassed should only be shared with Swedes.
Though i can see reasons why Sweden could give aid to other countries, if they pay it back or if we got something valuable out of it.

[Arcade22]

Do you merely disagree, or do you fail to get it at all?

I don't really understand why some people seem to believe that we have an obligation to help these people just because we richer than them. Why do people believe that?

[Fiona]

Because most people answer the question "who is us" differently than you do, I am very glad to say

[fuelair]

I don't really understand why some people seem to believe that we have an obligation to help these people just because we richer than them. Why do people believe that?

Look up John Donne and check up on whom the bell tolls for.

[LibraryLady]

I don't really understand why some people seem to believe that we have an obligation to help these people just because we richer than them. Why do people believe that?

I think many of us are taught by our parents to be kind and help people weaker and more vulnerable than us. Right now it is hard to think of a people more vulnerable, so we are responding to it in the way we were raised. I appreciate that your upbringing might be a bit different. That being said, I am so glad my parents instilled kindness, charity, and liberality in me.

[Francesca R]

I don't really understand why some people seem to believe that we have an obligation to help these people just because we richer than them. Why do people believe that?If your government donates abroad and recovers that from taxation and you're liable for tax then you indeed have a legal obligation.

But do you fail to get why people want to help the Haitians?

[kevinquinnyo]

Because i believe that the money, resources and welfare that the Swedish people have amassed should only be shared with Swedes.
Though i can see reasons why Sweden could give aid to other countries, if they pay it back or if we got something valuable out of it.

Do you think that Swedes should not be charitable to other Swedes also?

I don't get it. Are you just against compassion, if it doesn't pay?

[alfaniner]

I recently heard something along the lines of "We're only nine meals away from anarchy." Seeing some of the recent video, I believe it.

But once again, ignorance can cause people to suffer. When the UN provided some nutrition bars, someone misread the expiration date, causing a panic and several people simply discarded the provided food.

I'm also very surprised that those who distribute the food don't have a plan for keeping order -- it's almost a given that desperate people would swamp the truck.

[Pardalis]

I recently heard something along the lines of "We're only nine meals away from anarchy." Seeing some of the recent video, I believe it.

But once again, ignorance can cause people to suffer. When the UN provided some nutrition bars, someone misread the expiration date, causing a panic and several people simply discarded the provided food.

I'm also very surprised that those who distribute the food don't have a plan for keeping order -- it's almost a given that desperate people would swamp the truck.

Actually, they do have a plan, and that's probably why it's keeping this so slow. I've heard that some regions won't get aid until January 21. There will be no one left alive by that time. This is much too slow. Maybe the efforts are trying to have a too perfect plan, sometimes you just need to do it and worry later.

Alot of people are getting worried and restless, and I've heard many times the suggestion that they should drop food and medicine by the air. But then again, If they did, no one on the ground could secure and would be able to stop the chaos that would ensue, or stop criminal gangs from taking it for themselves.

[Pardalis]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/01/15/haiti-earthquake.html

Now they're estimating the losses to be at about 200 000. And the longer it is to get aid, the worse it will get.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Haiti-quake-worst-disaster-ever-confronted-by-UN-Spokeswoman/articleshow/5453467.cms

"This is a historic disaster. We have never been confronted with such a disaster in the UN memory. It is like no other," Elisabeth Byrs, spokeswoman of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs said.

She noted that at least local government structures remained after the 2004 tsunami hit Indonesia's Aceh province, but in Haiti, the town of Leogane, for example, had lost all its public services in the earthquake.

[...]

No local government infrastructure remains," she said. There's literally nothing on the ground to help the aid from getting to where it needs to go, so they have to do two things at once, create that infrastructure from scratch, and give the aid.

[MaGZ]

I don't really understand why some people seem to believe that we have an obligation to help these people just because we richer than them. Why do people believe that?

White guilt that has be conditioned into them for years.

People on this forum would not have this same reaction if this happened to Iceland.

[MaGZ]

Actually, they do have a plan, and that's probably why it's keeping this so slow. I've heard that some regions won't get aid until January 21. There will be no one left alive by that time. This is much too slow. Maybe the efforts are trying to have a too perfect plan, sometimes you just need to do it and worry later.

Alot of people are getting worried and restless, and I've heard many times the suggestion that they should drop food and medicine by the air. But then again, If they did, no one on the ground could secure and would be able to stop the chaos that would ensue, or stop criminal gangs from taking it for themselves.

I agree

The situation is hopeless.

[Arcade22]

If your government donates abroad and recovers that from taxation and you're liable for tax then you indeed have a legal obligation.

That's not what i am talking about. I am talking about the people who are saying that we have an obligation to let in refugees and send billions of SKR in foreign aid to third world countries just because our situation isn't as poor as theirs.

I just don't understand that kind of mentality.

[Arcade22]

Do you think that Swedes should not be charitable to other Swedes also?

No. While i am against private charities, not because i believe that we shouldn't help the poor, but because i believe that the government should handle that.
The government should handle all of the heath care and welfare issues.

One should not have to rely on a charity to stay alive.

I don't get it. Are you just against compassion, if it doesn't pay?

If the Swedish state should help a non-citizen it shouldn't be because 'it's nice' but because we would benefit from it. Can't see any real benefit with foreign aid that will never be repaid.

[slingblade]

White guilt that has be conditioned into them for years.

People on this forum would not have this same reaction if this happened to Iceland.

You can't speak for me. Of course I'd react the same way, regardless of where it happened or to whom.

Every person on this planet is my brother and my sister. Even, unfortunately, you.

[Pardalis]

Every person on this planet is my brother and my sister. Even, unfortunately, you.

I guess everyone has a black sheep in their family. ;)

[dudalb]

I don't really understand why some people seem to believe that we have an obligation to help these people just because we richer than them. Why do people believe that?


Common Decency.

[dudalb]

Because the people in Haiti are starving, with no shelter, many of them have severe injuries that are not being treated, and many of them are trapped under tons of collapsed masonry.

Even the poorest people in Sweden are better off than that.

People are people. Can you give me a reason why you should refuse to help people in need just because the're a few thousand miles away from you?

Rolfe.

Because they are not white.

[fuelair]

You can't speak for me. Of course I'd react the same way, regardless of where it happened or to whom.

Every person on this planet is my brother and my sister. Even, unfortunately, you.

I'd have to consider him and his like more like really distant fifth cousins who nobody talks with or sends family reunion invites to because of what happened back in '92. We just don't talk about that.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:boxedin::covereyes:covereyes

[fuelair]

oops, tech error see next post for what should be here:

[fuelair]

Because they are not white.
Actually, some are........

[Travis]

I don't really understand why some people seem to believe that we have an obligation to help these people just because we richer than them. Why do people believe that?

My empathy quip is seeming rather prescient now.

[Redtail]

I don't really understand why some people seem to believe that we have an obligation to help these people just because we richer than them. Why do people believe that?

The same reason that I help elderly people when I can, the ignorant when I can, and the sick when I can. Because they are people and I am able to.

[Architect]

White guilt that has be conditioned into them for years.

People on this forum would not have this same reaction if this happened to Iceland.

Far be it from me to join the many who have, over the years, highlighted your limited and rather partisan understanding of current affairs however you might want to look into the international aid contributed to Italy - well known for being predominantly white - after the 1980 Irpinia earthquake.

[Francesca R]

I am talking about the people who are saying that we have an obligation to let in refugees and send billions of SKR in foreign aid to third world countries just because our situation isn't as poor as theirs.

I just don't understand that kind of mentality.I could recommend some informative texts in mathematics (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=029p7dmFicsC&q=axelrod+the+evolution+of+cooperation&dq=axelrod+the+evolution+of+cooperation&cd=1) (game theory), economic history (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fd4dk-DROngC&printsec=frontcover&dq=in+the+company+of+strangers&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false) or philosophy (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=L-ORQgAACAAJ&dq=after+virtue) (moral enquiry) to help you there.

You really have no idea why anyone would feel an "obligation" (not the legal type--that wasn't what you were talking about) about this?

Anyway, the knowledge is yours for the learning :)

[William Parcher]

If you are going to be trapped...

Sunday, 11:03 a.m. -- Crews are working to free a fourth man from the grocery store rubble scene, and have contact with him, said Joe Fernandez, a spokesman for the Florida search and rescue team. It was "a unique situation ... because survivors are encased in food," he said. The trapped quake victims had been living on the store's inventory of food and water, authorities said.


and...

Saturday, 9:35 p.m. -- Authorities say a woman trapped under the rubble of a bank is sending text messages pleading for help.

Sunday, 5:10 a.m. -- A Los Angeles County rescue crew chips away at concrete to try to reach a woman who sent a text message that she was buried beneath the ruins of a collapsed bank.

[Fiona]

Now some of the people are poor in the purse
They don't have the cash at the ready
And some of the people they're crippled and lame
They can never stand up true and steady
And some of the people are poor in the head
Like the simpleton fools that you see
But some of the people are poor in the heart
That's the worst kind of poor,
That's the worst kind of poor you can be!

Richard Thompson

[The Drain]

Fiona - well said!

[Redtail]

Good on ya Aussies!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/haitiquakerescuemediaaustralia

[fuelair]

Good on ya Aussies!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/haitiquakerescuemediaaustralia

The rare stories like that make me feel good about reporters for a while.!!!

It's a shame they are rare.

[The Drain]

One media impression coming out of Port-au-Prince that seems a little unfair is that no food/medicine/help is getting through to where it's needed. We are getting help through. In our case it's across the border from DR, and we're also concentrating on about half a dozen centres outside PaP that have not been the focus of media attention.

The other unfair impression (and this is often the case with media coverage of refugees/survivors anywhere in the world) is that the affected people are just sitting around in the sun waiting for help - or, worse, are fighting over a scrap of food - whereas in fact the majority of people will be helping each other build shelters, dig latrines, and keep the children occupied.

In other words, people are taking an active positive hand in their own survival. But a picture of a young man waving a machete is more likely to get airtime than a young man waiting quietly in line for food for his family.


(PS: If I read that Aussie TV story correctly, the channel 7 team put down their camera and rescued the infant; this was filmed by the rival channel 9 crew who then took the child and claimed it as their own rescue...?)

[Fiona]

Not sure they claimed it as their own, The Drain: but they got the footage and therefore the audience.....

[commandlinegamer]

Cruise ship dilemma: a company leases beach compound from the Haitian government for its passengers to disembark and enjoy. What to do in the current disaster?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/17/cruise-ships-haiti-earthquake

I think Haiti needs tourism. But at the moment I can't see the money coming off cruise ships being that relevant if the infrastructure is pretty much destroyed. But if they can deliver relief supplies then that potential has to be utilised.

[leonAzul]

IMHO, they are doing the right thing by continuing the calls. There is no sense to cutting off a functioning source of employment.

As for relief efforts, there are no docks at Labadee. The ships anchor off-shore and send in tenders to the beach. So I understand the 50-80 pallets limit per call.

There is a significant port nearby: Cap Haiten. The road from there to P-a-P is not good.

St Marc would be ideal, if the port had been maintained.