the Pleiades and the Brights

[xouper]

Although I half expect to get pounded for expressing my opinion, I thought I'd share a couple of minor thoughts about Randi's January 9 Commentary (http://www.randi.org/jr/010904and.html) anyway.

Those of you who aren't interested in my opinions, why the heck did you bother clicking on this thread? Go heckle someone else.



Randi says, "... the Pleiades is not a constellation at all, being only a small group of stars ..."

I guess that depends on what he means by small. There are several hundred stars in the Pleiades cluster, spread across almost 2 degrees of arc (four times that of the Moon).



Elsewhere in the Commentary, Randi quotes Brazilian reader Gustavo Bastos Salles as saying, "... and besides I am a Bright ..."

I'm sorry, but when I hear people refer to themselves that way, I just wanna puke because it sounds so elitist.

Nonetheless, I very much enjoyed Randi's Commentray this week, same as I usually do.

[Beleth]

The Pleiades != the Pleiades Cluster.

The Pleiades are the tiny group of six stars you can see with the naked eye. The Pleiades Cluster contains many more stars than that.

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally posted by xouper
[B]Although I half expect to get pounded for expressing my opinion, (snip)

Those of you who aren't interested in my opinions, why the heck did you bother clicking on this thread? Go heckle someone else.

Bad day at the office xoup?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by xouper
Elsewhere in the Commentary, Randi quotes Brazilian reader Gustavo Bastos Salles as saying, "... and besides I am a Bright ..."I'm sorry, but when I hear people refer to themselves that way, I just wanna puke because it sounds so elitist.Never mind Xouper, I feel the same on that one.

I heard someone use the term "freethinker" the other day. I wonder if they'd consider that one as an alternative? It did mean a rationalist (another perfectly good word for the same point of view which the "bright brigade" don't fancy), or someone who rejects authority in religion, or rejects religious dogma, but it's not much used in exactly that sense any more, and as a designation for someone whose thinking is "free" of supernatural elements (which I think is how they've defined it), I believe it has its points.

It also has the great merit of not hijacking a word already in regular use for other purposes, and of not sounding smug, self-satisfied and just sickening.

Rolfe.

[UndercoverElephant]

Originally posted by xouper

I guess that depends on what he means by small. There are several hundred stars in the Pleiades cluster, spread across almost 2 degrees of arc (four times that of the Moon).


Over 4000, actually. A very interesting bunch they are too, way off the main plane of the galaxy and not originally from the milky way at all. They were canniballised from another, much older, galaxy.

[CERDIP]

"Adogmatic" and "Clear Thinker" work better, but "Clear Thinker" will get confused the Scientology's "Clears", so that's out.

[Rolfe]

"Clear thinker" also sounds insufferably smug and self-congratulatory.

Rolfe.

[Blondin]

I believe the proper term is 'asterism'.

The Pleiades in mythology were the seven daughters of Atlas and Pleione. The celestial object, also known as M45 or Subaru, is an open cluster. It is the 2nd closest open cluster to the Earth, the closest being the big dipper which is also an asterism and not a constellation (it's part of the constellation 'Ursa Major').

:)

[The Bad Astronomer]

Originally posted by JustGeoff


Over 4000, actually. A very interesting bunch they are too, way off the main plane of the galaxy and not originally from the milky way at all. They were canniballised from another, much older, galaxy.

Do you have a reference for that claim? The Pleiades are a young cluster, less than a hundred million years old!

They are about 24 degrees south of the Galactic equator, according to a database search I did. That sounds like a lot, but they are a very close cluster at a distance of about 130 parsecs. Their proximity magnifies the angle effect somewhat.

Imagine a star 1 light year away, but due Galactic south of us. It would appear to be at a Galactic latitude of -90 degrees, but still be physically very close to the plane of the Galaxy.

So the Pleiades look to be pretty far south of the plane, but really are close to it. Assuming the Sun is at 0 degrees, then the Pleiades are about 50 parsecs south of the plane. The plane itself is much thicker than that, so I conclude they are in fact at very low Galactic latitude physically.

[xouper]

Beleth: The Pleiades != the Pleiades Cluster.If you would be kind enough to post a cite showing that astronomers make that distinction, I would be grateful. I am always interested in learning new things.

[The Bad Astronomer]

I don't think the distinction is all that big a deal. It's just a name; if you're observing with a small 'scope then you mean the stars you can see, and if you are doing some study of the cluster as a whole, then that's what you mean.

When astronomers say "Andromeda", you can tell from the context whether they mean the constellation or the galaxy, as another example.

[Blondin]

Correct me if I'm wrong Phil, but aren't there 88 constellations that were agreed on by convention?

There are many classical constellations in the Northern hemisphere and a lot of not so old ones in the Southern hemishphere. Not all cultures used the same constellation names and boundaries.

Some time in the late 1800s (1875?) the International Astronomical Union designated the 88 official constellations, their boundaries and abbreviations so we could all work from the same page (as it were).

Anyway, neither the big or little dipper or the Pleiades are among the 88.

88 Constellations (http://www.obliquity.com/skyeye/88const/)

I think we should petition the IAU to decree another edict to change the name of our 7th planet to... Bill or George or Sue or...

ANYTHING but Uranus. :p

[The Bad Astronomer]

There are 88 official constellations, as stated by (I believe) the International Astronomical Union. The Pleiades are not among them (they lie in the constellation of Taurus). Any apparent group of stars that are not a constellation are generally called an asterism (like the two dippers, or Orion's belt). But since the Pleiades are a physical cluster, that's how most astronomers refer to them.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Rolfe
"Clear thinker" also sounds insufferably smug and self-congratulatory.

Rolfe.

I like the term "none". Like if you were asked your religion in multiple choice form and answered "none of the above". It's not pretentious or self congratulatory and is more inclusive.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by Rolfe
"Clear thinker" also sounds insufferably smug and self-congratulatory.

Rolfe.

How about bogarting the new buzzword for higher (thought) dimensions -- "brane".

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by alfaniner
How about bogarting the new buzzword for higher (thought) dimensions -- "brane". :D

Rolfe.

[Kullervo]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
I like the term "none". Like if you were asked your religion in multiple choice form and answered "none of the above". :)

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
I like the term "none". Like if you were asked your religion in multiple choice form and answered "none of the above". It's not pretentious or self congratulatory and is more inclusive. As long as they don't start calling me a None. :D

BillyJoe

"Are you religious BillyJoe?"
"No, I'm a None."
"HEY?"

[Kullervo]

A few years ago a male transvestite nun who called himself "sister boom-boom" ran for mayor of San Francisco with the party designation "nun of the above".
link: http://www.notfrisco.com/calmem/eccentrics/boomboom.html

[BillyJoe]

Which just goes to show that we should get into the habit of leaving those labels alone.

[bjornart]

Originally posted by xouper
If you would be kind enough to post a cite showing that astronomers make that distinction, I would be grateful. I am always interested in learning new things.

What's astronomy got to do with it? The pleiades is a small constellation of a couple of handfulls _visible_ stars, also known as the seven sisters. It's not one of the official 88 constellations used to name objects in astronomy, but that doesn't mean anything in the world of astrology. (Not that anything actually means something in astrology.)
Randi's comment was a silly, meaningless joke (since astrologers can interpret the sky anyway the want), and your argument against it is just as silly. ;)

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
As long as they don't start calling me a None. :D

BillyJoe

"Are you religious BillyJoe?"
"No, I'm a None."
"HEY?" Shoot. I never thought of that.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by CERDIP
"Adogmatic" and "Clear Thinker" work better, but "Clear Thinker" will get confused the Scientology's "Clears", so that's out.

In my opinion it is difficult to find more dogmatic people than "skeptics".

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer


I like the term "none". Like if you were asked your religion in multiple choice form and answered "none of the above". It's not pretentious or self congratulatory and is more inclusive.

Yes but I would probably choose "none" as well. But I wouldn't like to be put into the same group as you! :(

[Powa]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
In my opinion it is difficult to find more dogmatic people than "skeptics".

Sure. Because we are not "open-minded" enough to accept your particular theories without any proof and we rely on science to provide answers to our questions?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Powa


Sure. Because we are not "open-minded" enough to accept your particular theories without any proof and we rely on science to provide answers to our questions?

What theories might these be?

[Powa]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
What theories might these be?
Oh, how about the theory about the reality. You say that it's all a product of our (collective?) consciense. I still can't figure that one out :confused:

[Powa]

I just noticed your signature where this is adressed. Carl Jung says that we only know of matter through psychic images mediated by our senses. What about mechanical sensors? I know, they are a product of our consiosness, too.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Powa

Oh, how about the theory about the reality. You say that it's all a product of our (collective?) consciense. I still can't figure that one out :confused:

A hypothesis not a theory. I simply make the negative point that we have no reason or evidence to subscribe to a mind-independent reality. This being so reality is mind-dependent.

[Powa]

My mistake. Scratch 'theories' and insert 'hypotheses'. I won't get in a debate about it though because I don't even understand much of what you say :D

[Beleth]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
In my opinion it is difficult to find more dogmatic people than "skeptics". "Dogmatic" implies an unwarranted or insufficiently-backed-up position, though. I think the word you're looking for is "rigorous," in which case, thank you!

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Beleth
"Dogmatic" implies an unwarranted or insufficiently-backed-up position, though. I think the word you're looking for is "rigorous," in which case, thank you!

No, I meant dogmatic.

[TLN]

Originally posted by xouper
I'm sorry, but when I hear people refer to themselves that way, I just wanna puke because it sounds so elitist.

You're not alone. He's so "bright" he's alienating the very people he claims to want to reach. What a jackass.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by xouper Beleth: The Pleiades != the Pleiades Cluster.If you would be kind enough to post a cite showing that astronomers make that distinction, I would be grateful. I am always interested in learning new things. Since you asked so nicely:

http://www.aao.gov.au/images/captions/uks018.html

To quote that page (emphasis mine):

"The Pleiades are one of the finest and nearest examples of a reflection nebula associated with a cluster of young stars. The cluster itself is a group of many hundreds of stars about 400 light years away in the direction of the northern constellation of Taurus. A handful of the brightest stars cluster together in space and have been recognised as a group since ancient times."

(Fourth link down when you Ask Jeeves "What are the Pleiades?")

[xouper]

I'd like to thank all those who provided helpful feedback in this thread. On the basis of that information, I withdraw my objection to Randi's comment about the Pleiades.

[Beleth]

You are welcome, xouper.

[Cecil]

Originally posted by Blondin
I think we should petition the IAU to decree another edict to change the name of our 7th planet to... Bill or George or Sue or...

ANYTHING but Uranus. :p How about Urectum?

Major props if you get the reference without the aid of Google. :D

[Bearguin]

Originally posted by Cecil
How about Urectum?

Major props if you get the reference without the aid of Google. :D

Futurama. No I don't know the episode (without googling).

[Blondin]

I have to post a correction to my previous post where I stated that the Pleiades are the second closest open star cluster.

That honour goes to the Hyades at 150 light years. This is the large V-shaped group of stars that form the face and horns of Taurus the Bull.

The Pleiades (also known as M45) are further up in the bull's shoulder at 380 light years.

The closest open cluster is the asterism we call the Big Dipper at only 76 light years.