Are "inside" shopping malls on life support?

[bigred]

Seems to me that's the direction it's going. Y/N? Personally I hope so as I can't stand the things. Noisy (esp those godawful food courts) and too many "mall rats." I'll take the strip mall thx.

[arthwollipot]

What?

Er, no. Not around here, anyway. What are you trying to say again?

[Policenaut]

All the malls around these parts are in trouble. Lots of stores closing and no one taking their place. The mall owners keep jacking up the rent and no one but the most overpriced stores can afford to stay in business. One has virtually nothing except high end fashion, an apple store, and the food court.

[learner]

All the malls around these parts are in trouble. Lots of stores closing and no one taking their place. The mall owners keep jacking up the rent and no one but the most overpriced stores can afford to stay in business. One has virtually nothing except high end fashion, an apple store, and the food court.


Curious foreigner here..What are apple stores and food courts?

[r0ast_p0tat0es]

Curious foreigner here..What are apple stores and food courts?

Seriously? Even we have those. An Apple Store is an electronics store where they only sell Apple products like iPods and Macs. A food court is a bunch of different fast food outlets clustered together around a large common seating area inside a mall.

Anyway, I don't see them declining here. Malls may shut down as the surrounding area changes, but they're opening new ones in new areas.

Of course we don't have Wal-Mart or Target here. We do have something similar called Macro, but it's only really caught on in the rural-urban fringe.

[Architect]

The sooner they die, the better - given the way they're killing British high streets. Them and the "retail parks". On the other hand, they show no sign of abating on this side of the pond.

[a_unique_person]

Seems to me that's the direction it's going. Y/N? Personally I hope so as I can't stand the things. Noisy (esp those godawful food courts) and too many "mall rats." I'll take the strip mall thx.

I think i'd rather die than go to Chadstone.

[TragicMonkey]

Depends on the climate. Somewhere too cold or too hot will favor indoors anything.

[Just thinking]

I believe shopping malls are at an all-time high for vacancies --- and I have seen (just by me) 2 indoor malls close down completely; one small and one quite large. (Of course, this is within the last 15 years ... but they are gone.) I also recall reading that malls have reduced rents recently in an attempt to draw in (and keep) stores. I also know of 2 large malls that have vacant anchor stores --- that's not small potatoes.

[commandlinegamer]

Interesting article from 1972, which covers Britain's New Towns, which were starting to incorporate shopping malls, which even back then, had problems.

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001971/Downie/Downie12/Downie12.html

[JimBenArm]

They're dying in KC. The two local ones in the Northland (Metro North and Antioch) are ghost towns, with just a handful of stores still open. Pretty much the only ones who go there are the geriatric set, to walk laps in the empty walkways.

[Comrade Raptor]

We have one mall that's near death (they actually rented out the vacant anchor store area for H1N1 clinics). I think the only thing keeping it barely alive is the movie theatre, because there's pretty much nothing else in there.

But that won't last. The theatre is old, and last refurbished in 1988. It's my favourite, because it's got the big layout, but it can't continue indefinitely. I might start going there to watch movies, any kind of movies, just to enjoy it before it's gone.

ETA: the reno was in the 90's, when they added 3 cinemas, but the old cinemas didn't get the treatment and afaik are the same as they've been since 1981 when they opened.

http://www.deadmalls.com/malls/mount_pearl_square.html

The page is out of date, the call center closed and the supermarket is gone. So if it was considered dead at the time it was submitted to the site, it is well buried by now.

[quixotecoyote]

They're dying in KC. The two local ones in the Northland (Metro North and Antioch) are ghost towns, with just a handful of stores still open. Pretty much the only ones who go there are the geriatric set, to walk laps in the empty walkways.

To be fair, that's not really a recent development.

[Darat]

The sooner they die, the better - given the way they're killing British high streets. Them and the "retail parks". On the other hand, they show no sign of abating on this side of the pond.

You mean those British high streets that have a M&S on them, a TESCO or Salisbury mini-mart, a Next, a McDonalds, a W.H.Smith.... ;)

[Brainster]

Seems to me that's the direction it's going. Y/N? Personally I hope so as I can't stand the things. Noisy (esp those godawful food courts) and too many "mall rats." I'll take the strip mall thx.

"Nobody goes there any more. It's too crowded."--Yogi Berra

[kedo1981]

We have a "newer" mall village (out door mall) and I don't think I would want to shop there in bad weather.

[Shalamar]

Here in the Seattle area, its a mixed bag. There's a couple taht seeem to be in decline, closing stores, fewer people. Its almost depressing. (Wife and I take our lunches there on Friday). While one recently added an expansion in the midst of a major shopping area. The entire multi-block section containing mall, strip malls, stores, restaurants, movie theaters is horrible to visit on weekends, there's so many people...

[drkitten]

"Nobody goes there any more. It's too crowded."--Yogi Berra

To be fair, just because "mall rats" are hanging out at the mall doesn't mean that they're spending money and keeping the stores in business. As a matter of fact, most of the retailers in such malls hate the full-time "mall rats" precisely because they just hang out, make noise, annoy [drive away] paying customers, and tend to do more shoplifting than actual buying.

But as much as anything, this is a temporary problem related to the economic slump; the same age group that produces "mall rats" tends also to be the group that has a hell of a lot of disposable income for stores like Rue21. They don't have money now because no one has money (and unemployment tends to hit youth harder than the 30-40 year olds).

Give it five years and the indoor malls will all be back and booming.

[ponderingturtle]

To be fair, just because "mall rats" are hanging out at the mall doesn't mean that they're spending money and keeping the stores in business. As a matter of fact, most of the retailers in such malls hate the full-time "mall rats" precisely because they just hang out, make noise, annoy [drive away] paying customers, and tend to do more shoplifting than actual buying.

But as much as anything, this is a temporary problem related to the economic slump; the same age group that produces "mall rats" tends also to be the group that has a hell of a lot of disposable income for stores like Rue21. They don't have money now because no one has money (and unemployment tends to hit youth harder than the 30-40 year olds).

Give it five years and the indoor malls will all be back and booming.

I would add that there might be a bit too much mall space with the contruction and financial bubble. So after a correction there shouldn't be a major problem.

[Architect]

You mean those British high streets that have a M&S on them, a TESCO or Salisbury mini-mart, a Next, a McDonalds, a W.H.Smith.... ;)

Aye, but what do you do with a high street if they all move out to a retail park or shopping centre/mall? Fill it with pound shops?

[patchbunny]

All the malls bar one here in California that I've seen are doing fine. The one that isn't is located in a floodplain, and went underwater in '97, and everyone vacated except for a furniture store. I was in there a few years ago, and walking in the mall, all alone, listening to the sound of my footsteps, all I could think about was Dawn of the Dead. It was creepy as hell.

[ToddH]

Our older indoor mall is losing business fast and has already lost a couple of anchor stores. For the past few years the neighborhood around it has deteriorated and there's a lot of gang and crime activity inside and outside. It's a shame too because it used to be a nice place to go on the weekend if you wanted to do some shopping and grab something to eat. Now foot traffic is down considerably and businesses are closing left and right.

We do have a newer upscale outside mall on the north side of town. Business is booming there. Because it's outdoors there no loitering whatsoever and security is always present. It's the one mall my wife can actually get me to visit with her.

[Number Six]

I doubt malls are dying in general. Most of the malls I see dying are dying because newer, better malls are beating them in the marketplace.

If malls are dying what are they being replaced by? I doubt people are buying less in general (after adjusting for the current economic slump I mean) so if malls go then they have to be replaced by other stores elsewhere.

[theprestige]

Seems to me that's the direction it's going.
Why does it seem like this to you?

How can you come to a skeptic discussion forum and claim to have made observations that lead you to a certain conclusion, and then not describe your observations?

[Modified]

The mall owners keep jacking up the rent and no one but the most overpriced stores can afford to stay in business.

It seems to be a general problem that during bad economic times, landlords of business property are unwilling to lower rents, or even try to raise rents to make up for other losses. I know a couple of small business owners who have been forced to relocate in the last year because their landlords were increasing the rent. Both ended up in better locations at much lower rents (one in a brand new building), but moving was still costly and a hassle.

[dudalb]

The sooner they die, the better - given the way they're killing British high streets. Them and the "retail parks". On the other hand, they show no sign of abating on this side of the pond.

The British High Street is probably going to go the way of the American Main Street.

[esquel]

It depends on a bunch of factors: location, the surrounding neighborhood, how well maintained the facility is... We have one big mall and several smaller surrounding strip malls. The big indoor mall has lost some tenants, but has historically had high turnover; the current economics just pushed some stores out that were barely hanging on. The strip malls have higher vacancy, but only one of them has bothered to do any major renovation in the past decade, and one of them was pulled down when a major tenant had their store burn. A neighboring town has the equivalent of a main street, but there is insufficient onstreet parking to make stores there cost effective, and again you get high vacancy.

There is a big new housing development about 1 1/2 miles from said neighboring town that is ripe for a shopping center of some type; the nearest grocery store, for example, is more than 4 miles away. If the town would group its poop and add some major stores with convenient parking, the whole area would rejuvenate.

[justcharlie09]

Speaking as someone who lives in a godforsaken desert where NO one should have built anything to begin with, let alone whole neighborhoods... I don't see malls dying out completely around here in the near-term future.

The main reason for this being that, without malls, there is nothing else to do around here--especially in the summer when even the pools become like giant bathtubs full of warm chlorinated water and whatever infectious bacteria your friends/neighbors have contributed to it. Malls, tacky as they are, at least give one a chance to walk or to sit in the air conditioning.

The towns and cities are not walkable and in the heat they are basically unliveable outside of air conditioning.

There are some places where you can hike, but still not the nice hikes/walking trails of other places with lush green forests and pretty plants. No, here we have rocks, rocks, plants covered in pointy things, scorpions, rattle snakes, and more rocks.

For what it is worth, I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY there are cities of any notable size in AZ, NM, NV, or the inland parts of SoCal. And, if I had my druthers, I'd be out of here in less than one heartbeat.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Of the three malls closest to my house, two are in great shape financially and one has scores of empty stores. But stores on some of the strip malls appear to be experiencing the same fate. There are a lot of empty spaces, while other stores appear busy.

I was surprised to see a fast food place closed the other day that I had been expecting to buy dinner at. The economy is clearly showing stress. But then, the stress appeared around here at a time somewhat delayed from the initial economic crash. And that makes sense because stores would have had leases and some reserve before it was clear they were going to fail.

My business is actually busier than usual because I deal with influenza vaccine and infectious disease. Road construction seems to be in progress. There is only one big crane in downtown Bellevue whereas 2 years ago there were at least a dozen.

Meh, life is what it is. I'm still spending my money but I'm buying much less, not because I'm worried about the money, it's because I have no space in my house and I'm tired of it. My Ebay sales are back up and running since I'm motivated to clear out the massive clutter in the house. I see a lot of things which were selling for more are down in price, but still selling, and selling for more than I paid for the stuff at the thrift stores and yard sales.

Skeptigirl, here. Reporting on economic conditions in my circle of influence. :D

[Fnord]

When these malls recover, I hope that they strive for a greater variety in the types of stores that come in. I mean, do we really need a mall with 21 stores for women's clothing, 18 more for accessories, and another 11 for jewelry? Especially when the same mall offers only 1 book store and 2 stores devoted solely to men's clothing. At least it has only 1 gaming arcade, so there aren't many mall rats hanging around.

[Skeptic Ginger]

FYI, because I didn't know either:

Free Dictionary definition of British High St. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/high+street)


As for the discussion, unless you compare the decline in malls to the decline in retail stores which are not located in indoor malls, the thinking that indoor malls are failing is faulty logic.

[Skeptic Ginger]

When these malls recover, I hope that they strive for a greater variety in the types of stores that come in. I mean, do we really need a mall with 21 stores for women's clothing, 18 more for accessories, and another 11 for jewelry? Especially when the same mall offers only 1 book store and 2 stores devoted solely to men's clothing. At least it has only 1 gaming arcade, so there aren't many mall rats hanging around.
Of our 2 malls that are thriving, one is totally upscale with stores that have almost all useless merchandise except clothing and maybe electronics like Apple and the cellular outlets and some music and game stores. The entertainment is also upscale and there are numerous high end restaurants.

The other mall is a community center. They have a giant chess game that is always going, free music every Fri and Sat, a very busy food court and a large used book store, and a used music store that are fun to browse. Often there is other gaming going on at the tables but less so now that the Wizards of the Coast store closed. And there is a grocery store and a library branch inside the mall.


Both malls are social centers, and both with very different flavors.

[dudalb]

Brit High Street = Yank Main Street.

[FenerFan]

The shopping malls here are doing very well. At weekend they are packed with shoppers. It's interesting to me that the economic crisis did not really seem to have an impact on shopping here at all. In fact, 2 large malls have opened in the last year and another 2 or 3 are under construction. There are no vacanies in the most popular malls at all.
I am not a big shopper myself, but there are someone amazing malls here. There is one called "Kanyon" that is IMO architectually amazing. It is literally built like a canyon so it is an indoor/outdoor mall. I reccomend any members who are architects to google it and check it out.

[Architect]

FYI, because I didn't know either:

Free Dictionary definition of British High St. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/high+street)



It worries me, sometimes, how the US doesn't get these common phrases. How do you all understand Doctor Who?

[Checkmite]

Malls are expensive. They're expensive to heat in the winter and air-condition in the summer; they're expensive to keep clean, light, maintain, upgrade, and secure. And the costs are going up continuously. As someone already mentioned, this continually-rising overhead is effectively pricing some small shops out of indoor malls.

Strip malls are much better for property owners. Cut the cost of heating and cooling, lighting, and cleaning the damn restrooms out of the bottom line and it's no wonder that developers are literally tearing down malls in some cases to build strips in their place.

[funk de fino]

The sooner they die, the better - given the way they're killing British high streets. Them and the "retail parks". On the other hand, they show no sign of abating on this side of the pond.

Leeds is the best example of a city trying to keep the city centre shopping and benefitting from it.

Glasgows big shopping centre out the M8 is a hideous place. Once you have been to the malls in Dubai you are "all malled out". Forever.

[Number Six]

Malls are expensive. They're expensive to heat in the winter and air-condition in the summer; they're expensive to keep clean, light, maintain, upgrade, and secure. And the costs are going up continuously. As someone already mentioned, this continually-rising overhead is effectively pricing some small shops out of indoor malls.

Strip malls are much better for property owners. Cut the cost of heating and cooling, lighting, and cleaning the damn restrooms out of the bottom line and it's no wonder that developers are literally tearing down malls in some cases to build strips in their place.

I can understand that malls are expensive overall since they're so big and they have so many stores but are they expensive on a per store basis? I don't know the details of how things work but I would have guessed that indoor malls would be cheaper per store than stand alone stores or strip malls because a lot of the costs are shared amongst many stores. Aren't the expenses you list things that stores have to pay even if they're not in an indoor mall?

Mojo Nixon may have been ahead of his time when he wrote the song "Burn Down The Malls," as well as the song "I Hate Banks."

[Just thinking]

I can understand that malls are expensive overall since they're so big and they have so many stores but are they expensive on a per store basis? I don't know the details of how things work but I would have guessed that indoor malls would be cheaper per store than stand alone stores or strip malls because a lot of the costs are shared amongst many stores. Aren't the expenses you list things that stores have to pay even if they're not in an indoor mall?

I think the reason for having indoor malls is the traffic they produce for smaller stores, that in a strip mall they might otherwise never see. Whether or not this increase in traffic offsets the higher costs they pay for being in a mall (as opposed to a strip mall or independent store) is another matter, and likely goes up and down with the overall economy.

[Miss_Kitt]

I must echo Skeptigirl's comments -- and, hey, have you tried the alfredo at the little Italian food place across the plaza from the stage at the "chessboard" mall? Fabulous! but I digress...There are dying malls, and there are thriving malls. There are dying open air shopping centers, and thriving ones. And that's just in Greater Seattle!

We have a tendency to use our malls in the fall and winter, because it does drizzle here quite a bit. Also, one of the big advantages of a mall is that it has a parking garage (s) where you can leave your car and then get to multiple locations on foot. I know of very few open air centers with the variety and number of shops an enclosed mall has. (One noteworthy exception is "University Village", which is located right at the corner of the UW campus.) I can only assume that in places where the winter weather includes weeks of sub-freezing weather and the summer 90F and humidity, enclosed malls would be a much nicer option. In more temperate climes, I think strip malls / open air centers would have a better ability to compete.

With the current contraction in the economy, I see a lot of businesses, both in and out of malls, going under or struggling. It does not appear, based upon my very unscientific scan of my local county, to be biased towards one or the other.

I mostly don't like malls, but I do sometimes shop at Bellevue Square (a very swank upscale mall) because it is more architectually interesting and shopper-friendly than most. It is arranged on a roughly cross-shaped plan, but there are multiple mild changes in elevation and short side-passages such that there is only one large open space--and that is dominated by glass-backed elevator column, a switchback staircase, and the clocktower. There is an upper level that has broad pedestrian 'balcony' walkways looking down on the lower floor, with multiple escalators to switch levels as you choose. You don't get the big empty warehouse buzz when you shop there--except in December, but you can't make me go then--and depending on which of the 4 main parking areas you choose, you can go straight in to the place you want to shop and back out in short order if you don't wish to browse. Also, they wisely chose to not have a 'food court' but instead have eateries (and, of course, espresso shops) scattered here and there on both floors. This eliminates the Teen Hangout Problem, since there is no easy place to loiter and sip sodas.

I would think there would be information available from either the Department of Commerce or from some national mall-owners association on how the picture shapes up nationally.

Just my thoughts, MK

[King of the Americas]

Seems to me that's the direction it's going. Y/N? Personally I hope so as I can't stand the things. Noisy (esp those godawful food courts) and too many "mall rats." I'll take the strip mall thx.

They are indeed losing retailers...but WHY???

Personally, I'd much rather shop ONE mall, 'out' of the rain, rather than get in and out of my car a half a dozens time out in the weather, to shop a strip mall that seems to be taking over.

All of the 'good' stores moved out of the mall, and over to the growing strip mall. But I still shop the mall. They have walk up sushi!

[bigred]

If malls are dying what are they being replaced by?
I'd guesstimate strip malls, mostly, and perhaps a sprinkling of the big chain stores like Kohls etc.

[luchog]

But as much as anything, this is a temporary problem related to the economic slump; the same age group that produces "mall rats" tends also to be the group that has a hell of a lot of disposable income for stores like Rue21. They don't have money now because no one has money (and unemployment tends to hit youth harder than the 30-40 year olds).

It's not just the slump. Shopping malls are on the knife-edge of survivability anyway. The rents are typically so high that many shops in the average shopping mall operate at a loss or break-even point for 9 months of the year, making up for it during the Christmas rush.

[ponderingturtle]

Malls are expensive. They're expensive to heat in the winter and air-condition in the summer; they're expensive to keep clean, light, maintain, upgrade, and secure. And the costs are going up continuously. As someone already mentioned, this continually-rising overhead is effectively pricing some small shops out of indoor malls.


Are they expensive to heat? I know that the Mall of America doesn't need a heating system, they get enough waste heat for their heating needs.

[ponderingturtle]

It's not just the slump. Shopping malls are on the knife-edge of survivability anyway. The rents are typically so high that many shops in the average shopping mall operate at a loss or break-even point for 9 months of the year, making up for it during the Christmas rush.

Is that different from most retail though?

[The Fallen Serpent]

My personal observation is that indoor malls are not dying out so much as adjusting to a new economic equillibrium. Internet stores and more ubiquitous deparment/grocery stores certainly cut into the indoor malls' dominance. Even so there is a place for indoor malls. In the previous city I lived in there were two malls. Technically they were in different cities, but the cities are part of the same complex and just 30 yards separated. One mall has been on a slow decline for the past 15 years but the other seems to match the rest of the retail establishments in the area. Once the better performing one built a new theater it hurt the poorly performing mall even more.

I think we are seeing a decline in malls but not their death. Perhaps a similar comparison would be the huge losses movie theaters took with the spread of television. Theaters lost ground that was never recovered but they did not die off. Life, culture and economies change. The role of indoor malls will change with the times.

[Modified]

Are they expensive to heat? I know that the Mall of America doesn't need a heating system, they get enough waste heat for their heating needs.

That would be my thought. I know that universities in the northern US like to build giant buildings, because they are much cheaper to heat per-room.

[The Fallen Serpent]

As far as I understand it really depends on the mall layout and design. A mall with more "clutter" throughout will be easier to heat. People are also little generators and can circulate the heat if the mall is set up to flow the crowds around the entire complex instead of just clumping into one area. An indoor mall can be built with less outside surface area than a similar number of stand alone stores even with internal walkways. That also goes without considering the advantages for smaller stores clustering together under one roof that is comfortable to shop in regardless of the outside weather. I have noticed a few malls need air conditioning even during near freezing weather.

Perhaps there is an architect around who can enlighten us with more credibility?

[drkitten]

Are they expensive to heat? I know that the Mall of America doesn't need a heating system, they get enough waste heat for their heating needs.

With outdoor strip malls, you don't need to heat the common areas.

So, yes. Visualize two strip malls facing each other, and imagine their heating costs.

Then put a roof over the area in between and turn it into a indoor mall. You've just added one more space to heat.

[boooeee]

Depends on the climate. Somewhere too cold or too hot will favor indoors anything.


That's what always confused me when I was living in the Chicago area. One of the more popular malls was Old Orchard, an outdoor mall. In Chicago. And it wasn't the only one.

[tableplay]

It seems as though indoor mall arcades themselves are as rare as hen's teeth . . .
<snip> At least it has only 1 gaming arcade, so there aren't many mall rats hanging around.

[The Fallen Serpent]

With outdoor strip malls, you don't need to heat the common areas.

So, yes. Visualize two strip malls facing each other, and imagine their heating costs.

Then put a roof over the area in between and turn it into a indoor mall. You've just added one more space to heat.

However, you might not need to heat the space in between. Enough heat may escape from the surrounding strip malls that is trapped by the roof to be comfortable for people to walk by and still be warmer than outside.

I would not mind being proven wrong but I still suspect air conditioning costs are more an issue than heating costs. The last time I was in a mall was a few days after Christmas in Portland, OR. It was snowing outside yet some areas still had air conditioning on. It was extremely busy however, so maybe in the brunt of the year it is not massive heat costs rack up.

[drkitten]

However, you might not need to heat the space in between. Enough heat may escape from the surrounding strip malls that is trapped by the roof to be comfortable for people to walk by and still be warmer than outside.

Oh, they'll still be warmer than outside. Just putting up a roof and a windbreak will do that.

But that won't be enough for them to be comfortable. You've still got the problem that you're fundamentally heating more stuff (and more space) and therefore have higher heat costs. Can't get away from thermodynamics. The more stuff you have, the more heat you lose to radiation and the more you need to replace.

Now, you can partially address that by building the roof and whatnot out of special uber-insulating unobtainium fibers, just as you could reduce the heat costs of the original pair of strip malls by improving their insulation. But as soon as you do that, you increase the costs (and maintenance) of the building, and the bigger the building, the more you increase the costs.

[Modified]

With outdoor strip malls, you don't need to heat the common areas.

So, yes. Visualize two strip malls facing each other, and imagine their heating costs.

Then put a roof over the area in between and turn it into a indoor mall. You've just added one more space to heat.

With the roof, you are greatly reducing the total amount of air exchange. That will more than make up for additional surface area, if any, unless the buildings were very far apart. Total volume of air is of very little importance.

[The Fallen Serpent]

Still, we are only looking at one aspect, space. A strip mall does not only heat the space inside the strip mall, it heats the space outside of it too. It just doesn't care about comfort. Add a roof between two strip malls and the heat kept in by that roof might be enough to keep the common area comfortable without needing an increase in heating output. THere is surface area to consider. I think more than just internal volume needs to be considered for determing heat costs. It is generally cheaper to heat an apartment building then the same number of small houses with sizes equal to the apartments. Heat tends to spread. When I live on a third floor I rarely have to heat my apartment compared to when I live on the first floor. If I had to split that cost with my neighbors below it would still be cheaper for each of us than each of us paying to heat unattached domiciles. If the apartment complex was shaped more horizontally than vertically, there would be some heat savings but not as much.

Strip malls would definitely be easier to heat than stand alone stores. I suspect indoor malls can have advantage over strip malls as well. Vacancy issues could mitigate the advantage. My suspicion is that multiple story malls with a properly laid design can save on costs. I could be wrong but I think more than mere air volume matters in thermodynamics for buildings.

[StanBearclaw]

If you ask me, malls are thriving. They've just knocked down a few partitions and now call it a Wal*Mart.

[HarryKeogh]

It worries me, sometimes, how the US doesn't get these common phrases. How do you all understand Doctor Who?

We just wait for the American remake.

[The Fallen Serpent]

We just wait for the American remake.

If we do that there should be a riot. Any idioms in Doctor Who that I fail to understand I just chalk up to alien or future speak ;) Or look them up.

[lector]

The British High Street is probably going to go the way of the American Main Street.

It's easy to make generalizations, and I'd be the last to argue that "Main Street USA" is what it once was, but still, it varies greatly from town to town. You get enough people who are fed up with mall culture & having to slog through miles of traffic & parking headaches even to access that culture, you may get enough of a critical mass to keep some shops on Main Street in business.

It's a mixed bag here where I live in North Jersey; most every town has its share of boarded up shops, but some downtown areas are still going.

I imagine that things will eventually shake out similarly on High Street UK.

[The Fallen Serpent]

The problem with main street in most cities and towns that I have lived in is that the parking is far worse than the mall. At the mall I can park for free within a short walk of the complex. On main street I have to pay to park and usually have to walk further. When I go downtown I usually go by public transit since it is cheaper than paying for parking and allows me to drink. However it is annoying that I have never gone to a mall and failed to find a parking spot but have gone to something on main street and had to park miles away from my destination. Main street flourished more readily when it had less competition.

[Brainster]

My guess is that utility costs are lower per square foot at indoor shopping malls than they are at outdoor ones. First, indoor shopping malls are commonly constructed with the lower floor actually underground and the upper floor at outdoors ground level, so the lower half is insulated by the earth. Second, the key calculation is the ratio of exterior square footage exposed to the elements as compared to interior square footage of the stores. Third, the exterior of shopping malls is commonly brick or block, with a minimum of glass, while the storefronts on strip centers and big box retailers have a lot of glass exposed to the elements, and glass has lower insulating qualities.

Of course, there are other aspects; interior malls require escalators and elevators, while single-story strip centers do not, and there is a need for more lighting in enclosed malls.

[lector]

THe new paradigm in malls, at least in certain areas of Maine, is to build mega-strip malls. They dispense with the indoor areas & small shops altogether. You have two or three major retailers in contiguous structures, standing in clusters around parking areas, plus several free-standing chain restaurants. I know of two of these complexes that have been built in the last 5 years just outside one small city. (Which, not incidentally, has a lovely main street that's been struggling for decades.)

Heating costs tend to be substantial in Maine, of course.

Curiously, just 8 miles away, there's a smaller town that has what I'd characterize as a thriving main street. I guess that says something about how far people are willing to drive to experience the joys of Old Navy.

[WildCat]

Malls are expensive. They're expensive to heat in the winter and air-condition in the summer; they're expensive to keep clean, light, maintain, upgrade, and secure. And the costs are going up continuously. As someone already mentioned, this continually-rising overhead is effectively pricing some small shops out of indoor malls.

Strip malls are much better for property owners. Cut the cost of heating and cooling, lighting, and cleaning the damn restrooms out of the bottom line and it's no wonder that developers are literally tearing down malls in some cases to build strips in their place.
The mall closest to me is this one: http://westfield.com/oldorchard/

It's an outdoor mall, but set up like an indoor one. Seems to be doing OK, but I never go there.

eta: I see boooeee already mentioned this one.

[shandyjan]

This is the reason we go to retail parks. It is so much easier! The malls in our town are tiny, and there are three of them. Lots of walking, then pay car parks that are too far away. They are around the high street areas though, so its called town centre shopping. The indoor market has empty stalls as the rates are too high!

[luchog]

The mall closest to me is this one: http://westfield.com/oldorchard/

It's an outdoor mall, but set up like an indoor one. Seems to be doing OK, but I never go there.

eta: I see boooeee already mentioned this one.
University Village in Seattle is very similar - an outdoor shopping arcade constructed similarly to an indoor shopping mall. What would be common areas indoors have parking spaces shoehorned in.

[Checkmite]

Aren't the expenses you list things that stores have to pay even if they're not in an indoor mall?

Yes; a store in a strip has to pay its own electric and heating bills in addition to the rent; but only for their small space. Whereas a store in an indoor mall doesn't have the separate bills (or maybe the restaurants need to pay for water, but that's it), yet the rent is high enough to cover the bills of the entire mall, divided amongst the stores possibly by lot size; even so, an 800-square-foot store's rent will include more than 800-square-feet of heating costs. It has too, because half of a mall is just open public walking space that needs to be heated just as much as the stores.

[ponderingturtle]

With outdoor strip malls, you don't need to heat the common areas.

So, yes. Visualize two strip malls facing each other, and imagine their heating costs.

Then put a roof over the area in between and turn it into a indoor mall. You've just added one more space to heat.

But you might not have changed the total heating cost. YOu added roof area to loose heat but you lost store front to loose heat. All that Glass, big heat loss right there.

In creased heating and cooling costs sure, but likely mostly on the cooling end.

[ponderingturtle]

Oh, they'll still be warmer than outside. Just putting up a roof and a windbreak will do that.

But that won't be enough for them to be comfortable. You've still got the problem that you're fundamentally heating more stuff (and more space) and therefore have higher heat costs. Can't get away from thermodynamics. The more stuff you have, the more heat you lose to radiation and the more you need to replace.

Now, you can partially address that by building the roof and whatnot out of special uber-insulating unobtainium fibers, just as you could reduce the heat costs of the original pair of strip malls by improving their insulation. But as soon as you do that, you increase the costs (and maintenance) of the building, and the bigger the building, the more you increase the costs.


You are ignoreing that for example the Mall of America, a rather large mall, in a place that is often cold, has no heating system. They don't need it, there is enough waste heat from operations to keep the place warm.

Then there is the squared cubed law, as it is the cost of the lost heat that matters the larger something it the less heat per cubic foot it will lose to its enviroment, so larger malls are more efficient than strip malls, even with the common areas heated.

[ponderingturtle]

Yes; a store in a strip has to pay its own electric and heating bills in addition to the rent; but only for their small space. Whereas a store in an indoor mall doesn't have the separate bills (or maybe the restaurants need to pay for water, but that's it), yet the rent is high enough to cover the bills of the entire mall, divided amongst the stores possibly by lot size; even so, an 800-square-foot store's rent will include more than 800-square-feet of heating costs. It has too, because half of a mall is just open public walking space that needs to be heated just as much as the stores.

The thing is that heating costs are not uniform per square foot. Assuming that they are is bad physics.

[Dorian Gray]

We've got an outdoor mall that is currently the shiz in our area, despite the fact that it's a shrunken copy of one near a larger city an hour away from here. One of the two indoor malls converted distant portions of its parking lot into a small outdoor mall, so there's an indoor mall with an outdoor mall addition. The other indoor mall did nothing. It's in a prime location near an AF base and a college, and is the fastest growing part of the greater Dayton area.

I think indoor malls are not going anywhere.

[Howie Felterbush]

We've got an outdoor mall that is currently the shiz in our area, despite the fact that it's a shrunken copy of one near a larger city an hour away from here. One of the two indoor malls converted distant portions of its parking lot into a small outdoor mall, so there's an indoor mall with an outdoor mall addition. The other indoor mall did nothing. It's in a prime location near an AF base and a college, and is the fastest growing part of the greater Dayton area.

I think indoor malls are not going anywhere.

I hope not. We'll need them when the Zombie Apocalypsetm happens.

[Beerina]

A food court is a bunch of different fast food outlets clustered together around a large common seating area inside a mall.

To furriners: Ok, you know how you have these little shops along the street where you can get fish 'n chips, or shawarma, or a ham-n-cheese on a baguette? Well, take all those, round 'em up, and put them around a large, common seating area of tables. Throw a roof over it and attach it to a big mall of stores, which are themselves apings of streets with shops along them. Oh, and replace the fish 'n chips, shawarma, and ham-n-cheese shops with various cruddy-quality, small-name corporate franchises, to get rid of any quaintness that might accidentally exist*.




* God knows they try, frequently putting up faux awnings, brickwork, and even street lights, all made in China, designed to make you think that spaghetti you ordered is like something from Italy.

[Francesca R]

One of the more popular malls was Old Orchard, an outdoor mall. In Chicago.
The mall closest to me is this one: http://westfield.com/oldorchard/ Whoa I was just there last month (on the way to ORD buying a cheap bag)

To furriners: Ok, you know how you have these little shops along the street where you can get fish 'n chips, or shawarma, or a ham-n-cheese on a baguette? Well, take all thoseI got two quite chavvy street (http://www.whitecrossstreet.co.uk/about.php) markets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_Market) near me, though the first one of those needed a handout from the local council to re-invigorate. Second one's been going medium-strong for a while.

[ZirconBlue]

Whoa I was just there last month (on the way to ORD buying a cheap bag)

You went all the way to O'Hare just to get a cheap bag?

[arthwollipot]

To furriners: Ok, you know how you have these little shops along the street where you can get fish 'n chips, or shawarma, or a ham-n-cheese on a baguette? Well, take all those, round 'em up, and put them around a large, common seating area of tables. Throw a roof over it and attach it to a big mall of stores, which are themselves apings of streets with shops along them. Oh, and replace the fish 'n chips, shawarma, and ham-n-cheese shops with various cruddy-quality, small-name corporate franchises, to get rid of any quaintness that might accidentally exist*.All food courts around here have a McDonalds, a Hungry Jacks (=Burger King), a "healthy" sandwich shop, one Italian, two Asian and one Indian food place (none of which are franchises). Possibly one or two other kinds of foodery shop, like a Kingsley's or a KFC (both of which are franchises). Oh, and usually an Ali Baba's.

[Just thinking]

All food courts around here have a McDonalds, a Hungry Jacks (=Burger King), a "healthy" sandwich shop, one Italian, two Asian and one Indian food place (none of which are franchises). Possibly one or two other kinds of foodery shop, like a Kingsley's or a KFC (both of which are franchises). Oh, and usually an Ali Baba's.

I was going to mention this earlier, but since you included it ... the food court at my mall just had a closing. It was McDonald's. I doubt it's a refurbishing (heck, it's basically a counter) ... so what could cause this? It always had one of the longest lines of any other establishment in the court.

[arthwollipot]

I was going to mention this earlier, but since you included it ... the food court at my mall just had a closing. It was McDonald's. I doubt it's a refurbishing (heck, it's basically a counter) ... so what could cause this? It always had one of the longest lines of any other establishment in the court.Probably something to do with rent.

[Just thinking]

A good number of lesser establishments seem to be able to hang on ... ones that are just as large with at most times I've seen fewer customers. I doubt it's just the rent.

[drkitten]

Probably something to do with rent.

Or franchising costs. Usually if you run a franchised restaurant, you owe them a flat fee per year, plus a percentage of your revenue that can run anywhere from 5-10%. And you are typically expected to participate in the national advertised specials that can cut into your profits as well. The theory, of course, is that it's cheaper to let McDonald's corporate plan and run your ads -- and that McDonalds can buy supplies and stuff for you in sufficient bulk to make it cheaper overall, but this theory doesn't always hold, depending on local conditions.

I could easily see a marginal shop somewhere that could (just) afford to make the nut but can't afford the 5% franchise cut off the top. So DrKitten's Burgers could make it, but I couldn't run a McD's there.

[Starthinker]

Have any of you ever been to the Mall of America?

http://www.starthinker.com/images/mall1.jpg

You see those big vents? Ever stand by one? Somebody is heating something.

Anyway, I was really disappointed the last time I went there. Just a couple of weeks before Christmas, on a Saturday, and it was no more crowded than when I went on a weekday during the summer. The science stores were gone, the nature store was gone, the joke store was gone, one of the gaming stores was gone, the sword store was gone, and many others. It seemed to be nothing but fashion, accessories, and the specialty stores like Disney and Legoland. If I hadn't been with my daughter there would have only been one or two stores I would have had the urge to go into. Most of the rides weren't even running and when one started up you'd see only one or two people on them. I remember my daughter had a laughing fit because the great big upside ride (used to be Snoopy's Hammer when it was camp Snoopy) only had one person on it.

The mall in our own town has whole empty wings. The Barnes and Nobel just closed which removed the last thing I ever visited there for. Their parking lot is so empty the city is dumping snow there.

[Just thinking]

... It seemed to be nothing but fashion, accessories, and the specialty stores like Disney and Legoland.

Even the Disney Store in my local mall is gone. But on your other note, it seems that (by me, at least) over 80% of the stores are clothing/fashion stores. I mean, gees ... just how much clothing can you sell?

[ponderingturtle]

Have any of you ever been to the Mall of America?

http://www.starthinker.com/images/mall1.jpg

You see those big vents? Ever stand by one? Somebody is heating something.


Depends, heat might come from them but it doesn't mean it is not waste heat from other areas of the mall.

How do you know that it is not air conditioning?

In reality, we don't heat the mall," said Anna Long, a spokesperson for the Mall of America. "There's no central heating system which is incredible if you think about it."

Shoppers are heating up the mall. The body heat of 40 million visitors each year is one of three heating sources. Sunshine from the skylights, which are seven and a half acres of glass and miles of artificial lights help too.

The mall is typically 72 degrees in the winter.

"There's a lot of math that went into it," Long said. "I can't probably give you details you need on that, but I can assure you there were rooms of research went into it so this could work."

Individual stores must have their own heating systems, but during future renovations, experts may find a way to harness the extra heat produced.


link (http://wcco.com/consumer/heating.costs.cold.2.638318.html)