Hitler was a Christian!

[boyntonstu]

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm


Hitler was a self proclaimed Christian.

Many, many other Christians accepted his words.

[HansMustermann]

Hitler also might have qualified as a Jew under his own racial rules. And there's probably a reason why he excluded himself explicitly from his own racial laws :p

[Thunder]

Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen.

Nevermind the fact that possibly 100,000 1/4, 1/2 Jews, and Germans married to Jews, served in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe during WW2.

One of the main generals of the Luftwaffe was a half-Jew.

A half-Jew appeared on a Nazi propaganda poster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischlinge

[Doubt]

We have had long threads on this before. Suffice to say, that Hitlers belief system was rather flexible. Public statements by the liars that ran Nazi Germany should not be considered as concrete proof of what they believed. Evidence for pagan, christian and atheist ideas can be found for various Nazi leaders.

[boyntonstu]

We have had long threads on this before. Suffice to say, that Hitlers belief system was rather flexible. Public statements by the liars that ran Nazi Germany should not be considered as concrete proof of what they believed. Evidence for pagan, christian and atheist ideas can be found for various Nazi leaders.


Hitler is the leader (Fuhrer) we are discussing.

[Thunder]

For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian.

For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic.

For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist.

For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist.

Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing.

[HansMustermann]

And at any rate, it's the same guy who was proclaiming his love of real socialism to the workers (including in the name of the party), while at the same time making deals with the industrialists to give them more power over the workers after he gets to power.

But if we're talking about religious beliefs, generally the thing they seemed to push the most were pre-christian germanic pagan symbols and ideologies, mixed with all sorts of occult woo. The whole idealized master race BS glorified the ancient germanic tribes and virtues.

Especially Himmler and his SS actually wanted to replace Christianity with a "völkisch" (national/racial) paganism based on pre-christian Germanic paganism, and had mystical rituals based on it.

E.g., the twelve-armed "Black Sun" symbol seems to have been very important to him/them, and was included in patterns and mosaics. E.g., in the floor of the Obergruppenführersaal in the Wewelsburg castle, when it was being redesigned into a school for SS officers.

He was by far not the only one, and AFAIK Hitler himself took part in some ceremonies and/or used such symbols and symbolism.

It's hardly the kind of behaviour that you could associate with a straight face with a rabidly devout Christian. If Hitler's hatred of Jews were simply because of his being a devout Christian, then he shouldn't have been more fond of neo-pagans either. But in fact he was.

[AvalonXQ]

For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian.

For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic.

For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist.

For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist.

Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing.

Obama learned well.

[Hux]

Has Obama ever suggested he was not religious?

[Thunder]

from Obama....to Hitler. nice guys.

[Ladewig]

Hitler was a self proclaimed Christian.

Many, many other Christians accepted his words.

Did you have some sort of point in starting this thread? I'll wait patiently for an answer because you seem to have gotten yourself suspended for three days.

[Ladewig]

For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic.Obama learned well.

Obama has referred to himself as a Catholic, an atheist, and a Darwinist?! I'm going to need a citations.

[Doubt]

Hitler is the leader (Fuhrer) we are discussing.

context matters. Hitler's friends and underlings ideas help provide that context.

[TSR]

Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen.

.
Ummmm. No.

Even if one accepts the "quarter Jewish" story, it supposedly came from the paternal side and no one in between was an observant Jew.

So, by the Nuremberg laws, he was part Jewish, by Jewish law he could not have exercised rights under the Law of Return in the absence of conversion.
.

[Elizabeth I]

Yawn. This is news to whom?

[garethdjb]

Hitler was 1/4 Jewish.

Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois?

Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5.

[Thunder]

.
So, by the Nuremberg laws, he was part Jewish, by Jewish law he could not have exercised rights under the Law of Return in the absence of conversion.
.

You obviously don't know the Law of Return. Anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, may come to Israel and become a citizen, under the Law of Return.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Jesus Christ was a Jew!

[TSR]

You obviously don't know the Law of Return. Anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, may come to Israel and become a citizen, under the Law of Return.

.
It appears that the Law was amended in 1970 to allow for "Jewish ancestry," so you are correct there. Of course, this assumes the story to be correct, and that Hitler survived to the age of 81.
.

[headscratcher4]

Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois?

Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5.


The bigger problem for Hitler from the Ayran perfection standpoint is that his family was rife with in-breading and more than a little insanity. Cousins married cousins (Alois and Paula were first cousins, I think). Hitler himself was particularly attracted to his half neice.

As to the bigger point...as has been pointed out, there was a rather long discussion of this. Hitler's religious belief were, at best, fluid. Most likely he was only a diest in the largest sense of the word --that he believed the "hand of fate" (god) put him on earth to lead the german people.

He certainly wasn't a practicing Christian by any stretch of the imagination.

So, what is your point? Stalin, too, was broght up by a religious mother and attended a religious high school...your not suggesting that Stalin was orthodox?

I'm just not sure what your point is? Is it that Hitler -- and Nazism -- were christian movements?

What do we glean from your understanding that Hitler was a Christian -- about Hitler? About other Christians?

[Marduk]

Jesus Christ was a Jew!

prove it
:D

[Marquis de Carabas]

prove it
:D
You want to see his circumcised wang?

[The Fallen Serpent]

.
It appears that the Law was amended in 1970 to allow for "Jewish ancestry," so you are correct there. Of course, this assumes the story to be correct, and that Hitler survived to the age of 81.
.

The Law of Return was passed in 1950. Regardless of the time frame we are required that Hitler survived past his death for this hypothetical.

[Darth Rotor]

Jim Jones was also a Christian. So too was David Koresh.

Being Christian is no proof against being a fool, or dangerous.

Too bad.

[TSR]

The Law of Return was passed in 1950. Regardless of the time frame we are required that Hitler survived past his death for this hypothetical.

.
But originally only included those who were Jewish by Jewish law -- those whose mothers were Jewish or converts. In 1970, it was amended to include those of "Jewish ancestry" and also included spouses of qualified Jews.
.

[The Fallen Serpent]

My point was that him surviving to 1950 was no more ludicrous than him surviving until 1970. I would have been mischling under the Nuremburg Laws, even though those laws ceased to exist decades before I was born. It just seemed odd to add that it required Hitler to survive till 81 for this hypothetical to be true, as if surviving to 81 was some how a big impediment when his time of death is a bigger impediment for any time frame. It may be beyond the average lifespan for people of his generation but it is not an unreasonable possibility.

[Eyeron]

This argument is really no different than the argument of "Stalin was an atheist so all atheist are scum" crap.

[justcharlie09]

Wow, a whole Godwin thread! Impressive.

[The Fallen Serpent]

This argument is really no different than the argument of "Stalin was an atheist so all atheist are scum" crap.

In essence, yes. From what I have read the best I could place for Hitler was some form of Deism, possibly with god being more a force than a sentient entity. Even if he were Christian it is not a great idictment of the faith. Even horrible people can agree with a great idea.

Many many Christians did accept his words. So what? Many many Christians did not. Foolishness and bigotry knows no boundaries, not religion, not creed, not ethnicity.

As for the comment about Obama, Hitler was not the only great public speaker in history, nor even recent history. Beyond that, I have to also express incredulity at the idea that Obama is hinting at atheism or catholicism in his speaches to atheists or catholics. As for being a Darwinist (seriously, people generally do not follow Darwin. Evolutionary theory has moved on from his observations, much of which he had no idea about) being a "Darwinist" and being a Christian are not mutually exclusive. I admit I tend to not watch political speeches, so please link me to speeches that banish my doubts.

[headscratcher4]

BTW:

Hitler was a vegitarian.

'nuf said.

[Mister Agenda]

I suppose this is ammunition for when some theist trots out Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot as examples of what happens when atheists are in charge, and not actually intended as a smear against Christians. I trust.

[Mister Agenda]

For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian.

For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic.

For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist.

For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist.

Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing.

Hm, the first two make sense, since Catholics are usually classified as Christians and Hitler was a Catholic. On the third, the only quote I can find Hitler making about atheism is bragging about having stamped out the atheist movement.

Did Hitler really believe in the theory of evolution, or claim to? I seem to remember the Nazis burned Darwin's books in Berlin, and the idea of selective breeding only requires a very slight familiarity with animal husbandry, so the Origin of Species isn't exactly critical information when coming up with eugenics schemes. I'm not saying he didn't agree with Darwin, I'm just asking for evidence that at some point when it was convenient, he claimed to.

Regardless of Hitler's religous and scientific views, the vast majority of the people who elected him and fought for him were Christians. They didn't do this because they were Christians but because they were people ripe for manipulation by the next jingoistic nationalist who came along. All it shows is that communists and muslims don't have the bad guy market sewn up.

[dudalb]

Wow, a whole Godwin thread! Impressive.

Wrong. A Godwin is when Hitler and/or Nazis are dragged into a conversation or a comparasion with The Nazis is made for no good reason .
A discussion in which Hitler and the Nazis are the main and inteded topic is not a Godwin.

[MaGZ]

Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen.

Nevermind the fact that possibly 100,000 1/4, 1/2 Jews, and Germans married to Jews, served in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe during WW2.

One of the main generals of the Luftwaffe was a half-Jew.

A half-Jew appeared on a Nazi propaganda poster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischlinge

If Hitler was a Jew and if you believe the Holocaust was real then the death of the six million was self-inflicted.

[dudalb]

Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois?

Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5.

The evidence that Hitler had a Jewish Grandparent is very sketchy at best.
I know the Irony of it is enormously appealling, but still, the Hitler was 1/4 Jewish story has got to be rejected as unproven and unlikely.

[Wowbagger]

Hitler was an art student! :jaw-dropp

[Ladewig]

If Hitler was a Jew and if you believe the Holocaust was real then the death of the six million was self-inflicted.

And if frogs had wings and ate birds, they would be cannibals.

[MaGZ]

In essence, yes. From what I have read the best I could place for Hitler was some form of Deism, possibly with god being more a force than a sentient entity. Even if he were Christian it is not a great idictment of the faith. Even horrible people can agree with a great idea.

Many many Christians did accept his words. So what? Many many Christians did not. Foolishness and bigotry knows no boundaries, not religion, not creed, not ethnicity.


I think you are close. Hitler referred to a Creator and to God. Jesus rarely was mentioned unless he was referenced to attacking the Jews in the Temple.

[jiggeryqua]

Wrong. A Godwin is when Hitler and/or Nazis are dragged into a conversation or a comparasion with The Nazis is made for no good reason .
A discussion in which Hitler and the Nazis are the main and inteded topic is not a Godwin.

Surely the main and intended topic is christian-bashing by association with the nazis? Somebody who isn't sozzled might care to come up with a God-win joke.

[MaGZ]

The evidence that Hitler had a Jewish Grandparent is very sketchy at best.
I know the Irony of it is enormously appealling, but still, the Hitler was 1/4 Jewish story has got to be rejected as unproven and unlikely.

It would not suprise me that the person who came up with the Hitler was Jewish story was Jewish himself.

[Hokulele]

It would not suprise me that the person who came up with the Hitler was Jewish story was Jewish himself.


It does not surprise me that you believe this.

[HansMustermann]

If Hitler was a Jew and if you believe the Holocaust was real then the death of the six million was self-inflicted.

No, not really.

For the white anglo-saxon women killed by Ted Bundy, was it self-inflicted? For the many women killed by Countess Bathory and her two helper women, was it self-inflicted? For the many Georgians killed by the NKVD under Stalin _and_ Beria, both Georgians, was it self-inflicted?

I just don't see how the victim's sharing an arbitrary label with the killer makes it self-inflicted.

[justcharlie09]

Surely the main and intended topic is christian-bashing by association with the nazis? Somebody who isn't sozzled might care to come up with a God-win joke.

Well, if it looks like a Godwin and smells like a Godwin...

I'm just tired of Nazis getting pulled up for comparisons whenever there is a group to be picked on...

We don't like Bush...he must be like Hitler. We don't like Obama...Hitler.

We don't like atheists...they must be like Hitler.

You know, there were loads of evil people BEFORE Hitler. Couldn't we find someone else from history that is sufficiently unpleasant to compare with people we don't like?

Anyone? Caligula, maybe? Shamshi-adad? Robespierre? Anyone?

[AvalonXQ]

Anyone? Caligula, maybe? Shamshi-adad? Robespierre? Anyone?

Why not just cut out the middle man and compare people to Satan directly?

[TSR]

BTW:

Hitler was a vegitarian.

'nuf said.
.
And a non-smoker
.

[fuelair]

Wow, a whole Godwin thread! Impressive.

Hey, some things are part of a proud tradition!!!!!















This isn't one of them, but..........:D

[MaGZ]

Well, if it looks like a Godwin and smells like a Godwin...

I'm just tired of Nazis getting pulled up for comparisons whenever there is a group to be picked on...

We don't like Bush...he must be like Hitler. We don't like Obama...Hitler.

We don't like atheists...they must be like Hitler.

You know, there were loads of evil people BEFORE Hitler. Couldn't we find someone else from history that is sufficiently unpleasant to compare with people we don't like?

Anyone? Caligula, maybe? Shamshi-adad? Robespierre? Anyone?

Hitler is the ultimate evil only because the Jews run Hollywood.

[HansMustermann]

Hitler is the ultimate evil only because the Jews run Hollywood.

Hmm... can we get some movies about the Assyrians too, then? :p

[dudalb]

It would not suprise me that the person who came up with the Hitler was Jewish story was Jewish himself.

I really, really, wish the story was true just so I could see the Meltdown you and the other Neo Nazis would have when they found out their Beloved Aryan Fuehrer was Jewish.

[MaGZ]

I really, really, wish the story was true just so I could see the Meltdown you and the other Neo Nazis would have when they found out their Beloved Aryan Fuehrer was Jewish.

Some of Hitler's best friends were Jewish.

http://www.adolfthegreat.com/Trails-Trivia/trivia-JewsForHitler.html

[fuelair]

I really, really, wish the story was true just so I could see the Meltdown you and the other Neo Nazis would have when they found out their Beloved Aryan Fuehrer was Jewish.

I didn't realize anyone here was a Neo - thought it went back to the source/cess pool, whatever.

[Brian-M]

Jesus Christ was a Jew!

But was he a Christian? :)

[Thunder]

BTW:

Hitler was a vegitarian.

'nuf said.

untrue. but understandable.

[fuelair]

untrue. but understandable.

They were probably confused about the vegetarian thing from the stories about his intake of cucumbers and bananas (unpeeled, of course).:D

[Thunder]

this leads to an interesting question:

if Hitler was indeed baptized as a Roman Catholic, how come the RCC never excommunicated him then..or even now?

[ddt]

.
And a non-smoker
.

And he was really fond of his dog.

[ddt]

The evidence that Hitler had a Jewish Grandparent is very sketchy at best.
I know the Irony of it is enormously appealling, but still, the Hitler was 1/4 Jewish story has got to be rejected as unproven and unlikely.

Agreed 100%. The story had enough traction, though, even in Hitler's time that he had Hans Frank research his ancestry to debunk it.

[ddt]

Anyone? Caligula, maybe? Shamshi-adad? Robespierre? Anyone?

Genghis Khan! Lots of descendants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan#DNA_evidence_-_Genghis_Khan_Effect) to blame for the evils of their forefather:
Zerjal et al. [2003] [6] identified a Y-chromosomal lineage present in about 8% of the men in a large region of Asia (about 0.5% of the men in the world). The paper suggests that the pattern of variation within the lineage is consistent with a hypothesis that it originated in Mongolia about 1,000 years ago (thus several generations prior to the birth of Genghis). Such a spread would be too rapid to have occurred by genetic drift, and must therefore be the result of selection. The authors propose that the lineage is carried by likely male-line descendants of Genghis Khan and his close male relatives,

[HansMustermann]

It must be said, though, that Hans Frank did _not_ debunk it, admitted it as a possibility, but merely thought it improbable. And that based on nothing more than, "from his entire demeanor, the fact that Adolf Hitler had no Jewish blood coursing through his veins seems so clearly evident that nothing more need be said on this." Basically, he doesn't act like a Jew. (Whatever that may mean.)

According to Hans Frank, Hitler told him that his grandma was only claiming that Alois was Leopold Frankenberger's illegitimate son, so she could extort money from him. That's from Hitler himself: his grandma had told Leopold Frankenberger that she's pregnant with his illegitimate son.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but unless Frankenberger was a complete and utter moron, he must have had unprotected sex with her in roughly the right time interval for that pregnancy.

[WaterBreather]

The parable of the Good Samaritan shows that
it is a persons goodness in action that makes him religious, (Christian if you want)
not his religious proclamations that make him good.

What were they teaching u guys in kindergaten?

That all you have to do is say "I am scientist"
and suddenly everything you say is Scientifically proven as true?

[HansMustermann]

Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois?

Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5.

The Nazis though were not above destroying such evidence, when needed.

E.g., Reinhard Heydrich was also rumoured to have a Jewish grandfather, and as per the testimony of Walter Schellenberg he had actually confessed that said grandfather was a Jew. Hitler overruled it, saying that "his Aryan blood far suppressed his Jewish heritage." Though for a while they did use it as a threa to keep Heydrich on a tight leash.

Eventually they sent Gestapo agents to Heydrich's hometown, Halle, to destroy all evidence that said grandfather was a Jew or Heydrich's grandfather. Apparently including the destruction of his tombstone. They were thorough like that. And had Dr. Achim Gercke proclaim the same thing: that guy was not a Jew and not Heydrich's grandfather.

So, really, if Hitler knew how to do that for Himmler, what makes you think he'd refrain from doing it for himself?

Especially given that the whole thing started with a relative trying to blackmail Hitler about his Jewish ancestry. Seems to me like a damned good reason to erase any support for the blackmail.

And again, we have Hitler's own testimony to Hans Frank that his grandmother extorted money from a guy called Leopold Frankenberger. As well as Hans Frank's testimony that during his investigations he did find evidence that Maria had worked for a guy by that name and received regular payments from him ever after.

Then later suddenly there is no evidence at all about anyone by that name, or that Maria was ever in Graz.

So had at least three different persons been hallucinating about the same non-existent person? WTH had Frank discovered in Graz, that would even make him tell Hitler himself that he can't rule that out, if both persons involved never were there? Was Frank merely trying to risk his life by annoying Hitler, or what? Seems a bit unwise to me.

Really, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the absence of records was arranged later.

[Gawdzilla]

"But there is something I believe, and that is there is a God. This God has given the same right to all nations. And this God again has blessed our efforts during the past years."



Adolf Hitler, Munich, Feb. 24, 1940. Vital Speeches of the Day, Vol. 6, pg. 342.

[Gawdzilla]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/labellafortuna/Dawkins10.jpg

[Gawdzilla]

Hitler quotes, from 1922 to 1942:
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter."
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions as factors essential to the soul of the German people."
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . .".
"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time."
"But there is something I believe, and that is there is a God. This God has given the same right to all nations. And this God again has blessed our efforts during the past thirteen years.
Some people, of course, call it luck; others, Providence. And others again speak of it as coincidence. I, however, believe that we are here dealing with divine justice."
"This God of whom I speak will not abandon us. He will guide us further along the path we have set our foot upon, and in this feeling of righteousness and justice we shall continue our efforts as we have begun them, certain that victory will be ours, because it is so ordained."
"We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."
"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit..."
"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."

Related:
Associated Press, headlined "Hitler Aims Blow at 'Godless' Move,": "Hitler, himself, is a Catholic."

Father Senn: "[Adolf Hitler is] the tool of God, called upon to overcome Judaism..."

German Military Loyalty Oath: "I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will render unconditional obedience to the Führer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler, Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, and, as a brave soldier, I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath."

"It was Christians, you know, not pagans, who were responsible for the Holocaust. It was Christians, not pagans, who lynched people here in the South, who burned people at the stake, frequently in the name of this Jesus Christ" - Archbishop Desmond Tutu, U.S. Conference for the World Council of Churches, 2000

Doug Krueger: "So here's what evidence we have. There is a certain worldview, Nazism. Its leader, Hitler, professes on many occasions to be religious, and he often states that he's doing the will of god. The majority of his followers are openly religious. There is no evidence anywhere that this leader ever professed to anyone that he is an atheist. He and his followers actively campaign against atheism, even to the point of physical force, and this leader allies himself with religious organizations and churches. This is the evidence. So where does atheism fit in?"

[The Fallen Serpent]

Hitler was raised a Catholic but he also deregistered himself. In Germany Christians had to be registered as Catholic or Protestant for tax purposes wasn't it? At some point the law was changed to allow no committment, but I am unsure if he took advantage of that or not. In the end it is all irrelevant.

It is not so much that Hitler is the big bad of modern criticism because the Jews supposedly run the media, but because he represents an empire and an ideology that both failed and that is reviled by most popular ideologies of the day. This opinion is based more on a Western/US centric viewpoint. I do not think the Far East is exactly known pulling a Godwin in political arguements. Local atrocities like the Rape of Nanking carry more political weight.

I think it might be more fun to associate people with Xenu. Associating people with Satan has it's time and place, but associating someone with Xenu will not be expected!

[garethdjb]

And again, we have Hitler's own testimony to Hans Frank that his grandmother extorted money from a guy called Leopold Frankenberger. As well as Hans Frank's testimony that during his investigations he did find evidence that Maria had worked for a guy by that name and received regular payments from him ever after.

Then later suddenly there is no evidence at all about anyone by that name, or that Maria was ever in Graz.

So had at least three different persons been hallucinating about the same non-existent person? WTH had Frank discovered in Graz, that would even make him tell Hitler himself that he can't rule that out, if both persons involved never were there? Was Frank merely trying to risk his life by annoying Hitler, or what? Seems a bit unwise to me.

Really, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the absence of records was arranged later.

There aren't three different persons testifying, there are only Frank's allegations in his memoirs published after the war. No trace of Frankenberger can be found, and nor should there be if he was a Jew as he would not have been permitted to live in Graz or anywhere else in Styria at the time.

[Thunder]

There aren't three different persons testifying, there are only Frank's allegations in his memoirs published after the war. No trace of Frankenberger can be found, and nor should there be if he was a Jew as he would not have been permitted to live in Graz or anywhere else in Styria at the time.

Hitler had his home burned down to the ground.

why do you all think he did that?

[The Fallen Serpent]

Hitler had his home burned down to the ground.

why do you all think he did that?

That is suspicious. Other than burning his house down Adolf Hitler appears to have been a perfectly rational and stable individual without ego issues.

Hilter being Jewish enough to run afoul of his own laws suits my sense of humor. I get satisifaction out of seeing bigots being made into self-loathing hypocrites. Generally I suspect bigots of being self-loathing in the first place. Other than that, Hitler being Jewish is irrelevant. It would not mean the Jews did it to themselves anymore then when any other tyrant commits atrocities on people they may be marginally related to. It has no impact on the moral or ethical ramifcations of the movement or policies enacted under his leadership.

Previous to recent threads I was unaware how unreliable this claim about Hitler was. It appears possible, but it is weakened in my mind currently.

[garethdjb]

Hitler had his home burned down to the ground.

why do you all think he did that?

Which home?

The one in Braunau? (http://robertbonnett.com/2009/11/07/who-lived-in-a-house-like-this/)

Or the one in Linz? (http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/305531/)

[HansMustermann]

I am aware that it's not conclusive, which is why there was a "might have" in the message where I mentioned it. Still, there _is_ one testimony, and it's hard to see an ulterior motive to it.

Frank was sentenced to death and executed after the war, so it's not like he hoped to make millions with that claim or gain anything. What _can_ you give a guy about to be executed in return for something like that? Short of a pardon, he can't exactly take anything with him, and he didn't get a pardon.

One last act of confusing the world? It's possible, I guess, but not very probable.

[MaGZ]

this leads to an interesting question:

if Hitler was indeed baptized as a Roman Catholic, how come the RCC never excommunicated him then..or even now?


I suspect the Church will one day. They have a recent history of appeasement of the Jews.

[MaGZ]

Hitler was raised a Catholic but he also deregistered himself. In Germany Christians had to be registered as Catholic or Protestant for tax purposes wasn't it? At some point the law was changed to allow no committment, but I am unsure if he took advantage of that or not. In the end it is all irrelevant.

It is not so much that Hitler is the big bad of modern criticism because the Jews supposedly run the media, but because he represents an empire and an ideology that both failed and that is reviled by most popular ideologies of the day. This opinion is based more on a Western/US centric viewpoint. I do not think the Far East is exactly known pulling a Godwin in political arguements. Local atrocities like the Rape of Nanking carry more political weight.

I think it might be more fun to associate people with Xenu. Associating people with Satan has it's time and place, but associating someone with Xenu will not be expected!

If Hitler had the opportunity to use the atomic weapon he tested, then things would have been different with both his empire and ideology considered a success.

Hitler remarked in reference to the German bomb,
"God forgive me for the last five minutes of the war."

[TSR]

If Hitler had the opportunity to use the atomic weapon he tested, then things would have been different with both his empire and ideology considered a success.

.
He had no weapon with a successful test.
.

Hitler remarked in reference to the German bomb,
"God forgive me for the last five minutes of the war."

.
No, he didn't
.

[Elizabeth I]

You know, there were loads of evil people BEFORE Hitler. Couldn't we find someone else from history that is sufficiently unpleasant to compare with people we don't like?

Anyone? Caligula, maybe? Shamshi-adad? Robespierre? Anyone?

...and not a few after him - Pol Pot, Idi Amin, "Papa Doc" Duvalier, the Kims père et fils...

[uruk]

I don't see what Hitler being a christian or athiest has to do with all the crap he did.

I think it's kind of childish to connect the charcteristics of religiousness or atheisim to someone like Hitler with the pourpose of connecting one to the other.

Hitler was bad
Hitler was a christian
therefore Christians are bad
or
Hitler was bad
Hitler was a atheist
Therefore athiest are bad

Sounds like a logical fallacy in the making to me.

Grow up guys. Hitler sucked for reasons other than his religious belief system.

There are both good and bad people who happen to be religious or athiest. I don't think the reason they are good or bad have anything to do with belief or non-belief.

[Brian-M]

It's impossible to know for certain what Hitler actually believed (after all, you can only infer what someone believes by their words and actions, and never know for certain what they believe). However, as other people have pointed out, Hitler publicly claimed to be a Christian.

Hitler quotes, from 1922 to 1942:

[SNIP]


Hitler claimed to be a Christian, he claimed to be doing God's work, and his people believed him. Whether or not he actually believed in the Christian faith, for all intents and purposes he was a Christian. As such, describing him as a Christian is perfectly justified. (And describing him as an Atheist is not.)

[Brian-M]

You know, there were loads of evil people BEFORE Hitler. Couldn't we find someone else from history that is sufficiently unpleasant to compare with people we don't like.


I vote for Vlad Draculea the third, better known as "Vlad the Impaler" (and also the probable inspiration for a famous novel by Bram Stoker).

Funnily enough, Vlad was a Christian too. :)

[bluesjnr]

I think you are close. Hitler referred to a Creator and to God. Jesus rarely was mentioned unless he was referenced to attacking the Jews in the Temple.

Who is this Jesus Rarely you speak of?

[Egg]

Hitler claimed to be a Christian, he claimed to be doing God's work, and his people believed him. Whether or not he actually believed in the Christian faith, for all intents and purposes he was a Christian. As such, describing him as a Christian is perfectly justified. (And describing him as an Atheist is not.)
Although not in his public addresses, he also referred to Christianity as an obstacle to National Socialism, and as "unhealthy" and a "disease". (Hitler's Table Talk)
In 1941 he said "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."

So, yes probably not an atheist, but highly unlikely he was a Christian either, at least in the latter years of his life.

[withallyourmind]

itler was a self proclaimed Christian.

Many, many other Christians accepted his words.

I am a self proclaimed amazing footballer. Problem is i haven't played sinse I had kids and although I dream of playing with Ronaldo, i'd probably have a heart attack after 14 minutes of running around

[HansMustermann]

I vote for Vlad Draculea the third, better known as "Vlad the Impaler" (and also the probable inspiration for a famous novel by Bram Stoker).

Funnily enough, Vlad was a Christian too. :)

Well, that's hard to top, of course, but as a candidate for second place can I offer Peter The Great? He marched ridiculous numbers of serfs in chains across Russia to build his new city, and many died on those death marches or in the slave labour camps building the city. Not even criminals or everything, but Random Joes (or Ivans) drafted randomly and marched in chains to slave labour.

It's the kind of thing that if you were to do it to an ethnic group (e.g., like the Ottomans did to the Armenians) it would be called a genocide. But hey, these were Christian Russians like himself, so I guess it's OK ;)

Or another fun example are the crusaders. You can't get much more Christian than those who took the sword, left their estates behind and risked their lives for the cross, right? When they first took Jerusalem, they first slaughtered any civillians they could get, including some of the very same Christians in Jerusalem they were supposed to save from the Saracen yoke. And when the local Jews ran away and hid in their synagogue, the God-loving crusaders set it on fire and burned everyone inside. Fun stuff.

[Gawdzilla]

I don't see what Hitler being a christian or athiest has to do with all the crap he did.

I think it's kind of childish to connect the charcteristics of religiousness or atheisim to someone like Hitler with the pourpose of connecting one to the other.

Hitler was bad
Hitler was a christian
therefore Christians are bad
or
Hitler was bad
Hitler was a atheist
Therefore athiest are bad

Sounds like a logical fallacy in the making to me.

Grow up guys. Hitler sucked for reasons other than his religious belief system.

There are both good and bad people who happen to be religious or athiest. I don't think the reason they are good or bad have anything to do with belief or non-belief.

You are trying to force the god-botherers into a logical argument situation. Ain't gonna happen. They'll make up any garbage they want to show people that the Ten Commandments is the One True Way. And do so while ignoring one of those commandments.

I'm still waiting for one of those nutcases to produce a legitimate instance of Hitler, Stalin, et al., saying they mad war or oppressed people "in the name of atheism."

[zooterkin]

Why not just cut out the middle man and compare people to Satan directly?
Because he doesn't exist?

[Gawdzilla]

Because he doesn't exist?

True, people want concrete examples, not some imaginary supernatural being that has powers far beyond what can exist in nature.


Ooops. I think I just broke God.

[Marduk]

I'm still waiting for one of those nutcases to produce a legitimate instance of Hitler, Stalin, et al., saying they mad war or oppressed people "in the name of atheism."

just for you
Hitler was an atheist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdEUYn-6s_I
Stalin was an atheist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFz2K0ihr5o (this one features pussy)
:D

[The Fallen Serpent]

just for you
Hitler was an atheist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdEUYn-6s_IAh yes, the old anti-christian=antheist arguement. I have had to discuss this a number of times. Nice link.
Stalin was an atheist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFz2K0ihr5o (this one features pussy)
:D
Brilliant video. A very well spoken explanation. I need to keep this next time someone tries to inform me about my "belief system" of atheism. I admit that I have met people who do appear to have attempted to turn atheism into a belief system, I am not talking secular humanism here, but those people always bother me.

[fuelair]

"But there is something I believe, and that is there is a God. This God has given the same right to all nations. And this God again has blessed our efforts during the past years."



Adolf Hitler, Munich, Feb. 24, 1940. Vital Speeches of the Day, Vol. 6, pg. 342.

AKA Gott Mitt Uns

[Marduk]

AKA Gott Mitt Uns
I prefer gloves, its easier to make snowballs in the current climate with them
:p

[fuelair]

I prefer gloves, its easier to make snowballs in the current climate with them
:p

:D:D:D

[BenBurch]

It would not suprise me that the person who came up with the Hitler was Jewish story was Jewish himself.

Such as yourself?

[beeksc1]

Perhaps, Hitler self identified with Christianity; nonetheless, he was not Christian. To be a moral person, your behaviors have to reflect a life of compassion, justice, and love.

[Sledge]

So how does one determine that someone calling themselves a Christian is not in fact a Christian? For that matter, can you use your magic powers to determine that people are Christians against their will?

[qayak]

Perhaps, Hitler self identified with Christianity; nonetheless, he was not Christian. To be a moral person, your behaviors have to reflect a life of compassion, justice, and love.

Christian =/= Moral Person

[HansMustermann]

Perhaps, Hitler self identified with Christianity; nonetheless, he was not Christian. To be a moral person, your behaviors have to reflect a life of compassion, justice, and love.

So, he was no True Scottsman? :p

[Gawdzilla]

Still waiting for the evidence that the bad guys did bad things in the name of "no god".

I already have the evidence for the bad guys doing bad things in the name of "god", btw, no more needed.

[DOC]

Hitler was a self proclaimed Christian...

Chamberlain and Stalin also thought Hitler's words meant something when they signed treaties with him. But they weren't worth the piece of paper Chamberlain waved around in front of that crowd in England. 60 million people found that out the hard way.

[Gawdzilla]

Chamberlain and Stalin also thought Hitler's words meant something when they signed treaties with him. But they weren't worth the piece of paper Chamberlain waved around in front of that crowd in England. 60 million people found that out the hard way.

That proves he was a christian, then.