Atheists How and when did you cease belief in God?

[Cainkane1]

I was discussing atheism with a fellow atheist and apparently we came to our non theist conclusions in different ways. I personally came to the conclusion at age under ten after it became apparent that prayers didn't work. I became a full fledged atheist at age 12.

The person I was having this discussion with came to the same conclusion many years later in life than I had. Discussions with his college professors brought him to the non theist conclusion at age 21.

When and how did you my fellow atheists come to the conclusion that God was imaginary?

[Fiona]

Never had any belief in God to lose

[Bikewer]

I can't claim to be a prodigy. Raised Catholic, I essentially "bought it" until I enlisted in the army back in '64. Essentially, I lost interest in Catholocism, and became exposed to a variety of other ways of thinking.
Back in civilian life, I went through a period of "seeking" where I examined Asian philosophies and religions, neo-pagan beliefs, and so forth.
I believe it was my life-long interest in science that brought be to my full-fledged atheist viewpoint; I realized that many of the authors I admired were atheist (Asimov, Sagan, Gould...) and this led me to a more detailed and critical examination of religion and it's underpinnings.
I would say I was entirely atheist by my late 20s. (63 now)

[The Painter]

I was under 15 years old. The exact age I don't remember.Wondering what happened to all the other Gods before this one. No dinosaurs in the Bible. The Church being so very wrong through our history.

Also not being struck by a lightning bolt all these years.

[SumDood]

I was raised Southern Baptist and went to church every Sunday until I was 20. (And each Wednesday until I was 17 or so). I didn't go to the same school as the 'cool' kids, so I was kinda a social reject there (among other places). Looking back now it seems that not fitting in really disillusioned me with the whole experience. I don't remember a specific event or series of events that cause me to lose my faith. I just gradually drifted away. I remember the first time a friend called me an atheist, it kinda shocked me until i thought about it and realized that i was one.

[Tricky]

Thread moved here from Social Issues and Current Events.

[Pure Argent]

Before I was ten, I think. I don't remember much from back then. I don't think I ever really believed; if I did, it was before I was ten.

[ve2vfd]

I became a mild atheist about the same time as I stopped beleiving in Santa Claus... figured there was no more proof of gods existance than Santa's.

I realized I was a confirmed hard core atheist in 7th grade when I went to a catholic private high school run by the order of St-Gabriel brothers. I started to ask a lot of questions and neither the brothers or the school priest could give any answers except for the standard "because it's says so in the bible" or "god says so" or "well, look all around you!" we hear all the time, and those were not good enough for me.

Pat

[Jorghnassen]

Somewhere after 15 and before 17.

[Thunder]

i stopped believing in the God of the Bible, and became an agnostic, when I became old and mature enough to understand that if there is a God, "he" does not speak Aramaic, get angry, have kids, and cast spells.

And he doesn't write novels.

[MusicMan]

I was raised Catholic & went to a small town Catholic school from kindergarten to 12th grade, so I was brainwashed for at least the first 17 or 18 years of my life. Once I started college & began taking some astronomy classes, I started to question my beliefs. As I continued college & got into my twenties, I started thinking that the existence of a god was highly unlikely. I suppose I was in my late twenties before I labeled myself as a full-fledged atheist. My wife had a similar experience, and now we're both proud atheists.

[Mashuna]

Never had any belief in God to lose

This.

[Pope130]

Born without any beliefs (so far as I recall, my memory of the first few years is hazy). I didn't pick up any religion along the way. The religious stories I heard always seemed like, well, "stories".

Robert

[learner]

This.


that.

[ToddH]

I grew up in a pentecostal household so I was exposed to some pretty zany religious practices as a youth. I stopped believing probably somewhere in my early teens after realizing just how ridiculous it all was.

[qayak]

Many smokers have told me that I was very smart. I never started smoking so I never had the difficulties of quitting.

This has been my same philosophy with religious believe. I never started and I will never have to worry about undoing the damage.

[Hux]

It just never (religion) made any sense to me as long as I can I can remember.

[roger]

Have a small amount of Native American ancestry. As a kid, decided to go to the Encylopedia to find out about their religion. Turned out it was different from judeo-christian. From there the obvious question arose - which to believe. It all unraveled from there.

[thatguywhojuggles]

At the height of hormones (around 13) I had already begun to suspect there was no god. My first clue was when I asked myself how my parents belief could be right and all those other people could be wrong.

As a typical 13 year old, I wanted nothing more than to experience sex with a girl. I was fairly certain that there was no god, but as a final test, I stood out in an open field and called out to the Devil, offering him my soul for the ability to get any girl I wanted.

[ArcturusA]

There was no epiphany for me. I think I've always been atheist, despite going to a Church of England primary school. I can't remember thinking that what I was taught in RE about Christianity was actually real. I was in the nativity plays, but I don't think I ever really thought we were reenacting actual events. It was all just stories to me.

[Lothian]

Never believed.

[Pup]

I'd been agnostic since early childhood ("there's not enough evidence to indicate whether there's a god"), but switched to atheism the one and only time I've been seriously ill enough that I had to contemplate my own mortality. I think I was around age 40, about ten years ago.

I thought about it, and decided that there really wasn't any worthwhile evidence of an afterlife, and certainly not of a god, and that one need only keep an open mind so long. So I switched to calling myself an atheist then ("there's currently no good evidence for a god, though I'd change my mind if any comes forth") and have been equally happy with that label as I was with the agnostic one.

Since both atheists and agnostics come in lots of flavors, the parenthetical explanations are just to show which flavor I am and not to imply that's the only definition.

[Abdul Alhazred]

I was raised atheist, but sowed a few ideological wild oats as a young man.

Then I got better.

[CriticalSock]

Raised as a JW. Saw the light about 12 years ago. Realised it was a lightbulb and not divine radiance.

Actually the process took about 10 years. It was hard to give up the seductive trap.

[slingblade]

I began to lose my belief in my 30s, after my abusive first marriage and the realization that no gods ever "helped me" or answered my heartfelt prayers about it. I ended my marriage and got out of the abuse on my own. I didn't completely renounce my religion until I was in my 40s and in college, learning what critical thinking was, and then I realized that religious thinking was magical thinking and a god, any god, would be too fantastic to exist.

[The Shrike]

Part 1 - history and ethnicity:
Mine has come about quite recently - evolving over the past 2 or 3 years - I'm in my early 40s. Here's a bit of the history, that I think might be helpful for critical thinkers to understand why so many of us persist in religious beliefs despite all empirical evidence to the contrary.

Irish/Italian-American Catholic, 12 years of Catholic school. Unlike the sad experience of so many Catholics, I had a great time growing up Catholic. I was an altar boy for 8 years (as were 2 of my brothers), and I never encountered any hint of sexual weirdness in that community. From time to time we'd have a priest who everyone figured was gay, but mostly our priests were old Irish guys who spent their spare time drinking and telling bawdy jokes. Either way, it was always said that one should never get too "chummy" with the priests, and we never did.

One thing I rarely see in discussions of why people hold on to their religion is the importance of heritage. For a lot of American Catholics, this is huge. When a Baptist of German descent disavows his faith, he doesn't become "less German" because he's no longer identifying as a Baptist. (Maybe it'd be different for Lutherans.) But for Irish- or Italian-Americans to no longer be Catholic is seen as much an affront to one's heritage as it is to the Church. Of course heritage can be just as silly as faith, but it can also be just as powerful. I'm much more comfortable tossing my Catholicism aside than I would be in giving up my inherent "Irishness" - made up though it is. So for a lot of my life, I kept up with participating in the rituals of the Catholic faith not because I felt those rituals had any particular inherent value, but because they made me feel a stronger cultural connection to my roots in Ireland and Italy. (I know that to someone who's more likely to simply identify as "American" this will make little sense, but to the children or grandchildren of immigrants, you know what I'm talking about.

[Cainkane1]

At the height of hormones (around 13) I had already begun to suspect there was no god. My first clue was when I asked myself how my parents belief could be right and all those other people could be wrong.

As a typical 13 year old, I wanted nothing more than to experience sex with a girl. I was fairly certain that there was no god, but as a final test, I stood out in an open field and called out to the Devil, offering him my soul for the ability to get any girl I wanted.
Any luck?

[StuBob]

that.

the other thing.

I became a very mild agnostic at about 11 or so, when speaking to an adult who was athiest. It never occurred to me before this that no-belief was an option! I've been sliding along the scale towards 'athiest' ever since (and I'm 50 now), but maintained I was an agnostic until about 10 years ago.

[Monster Machine]

that.

The other.

I am 39 years old and got out only a few years ago.

Why?

Believers, mostly (the hypocrisy, the fighting, the gossip...) That lead to delving into the impact christianity has on our society. Is faith so tenuous it can't handle a Harry Potter book being available in a library? Apparently not. That lead to questioning aspects of god's character which lead to the discovery of no evidence of supernatural aspects of the bible.

Hence my non belief.

Monster

[The Shrike]

Part 2 - blind faith:

I never had that. I knew from childhood that the Old Testament was filled with nonsense. Catholics are really open to the notion that biblical stories are allegorical, not historical. My first biology teachers were nuns, and they gave me a terrific background in natural selection and evolutionary theory. They just maintained a "God of the gaps" perspective on how the universe originally came into being, and that worked for me for most of my life (and career as a biologist).

Just before my confirmation (adult initiation into the Church) around age 14, I went through a serious phase of "this is ALL bullcrap." We were encouraged by the Church to really question our faith and decide if we were committed to sticking to it, forever. I did question it, and was ready to break away (despite how terrifying it would've been to admit this to my family), but I knew that I had to make sure I was giving myself a chance to grow further in my faith, rather than just give up. So I prayed. When in doubt, pray. That's what you're told from day 1. I asked for the classic sign from God that he was real and wanted me to follow his way. There was just one problem - he did send a sign.

I'd rather not discuss the sign as it was very personal, though still a mundane event. The point is that, being naive to confirmation bias, I interpreted that subtle, mundane event as God keeping his side of the bargain, so I had to keep mine.

In college (Cornell), I had some great conversations about this stuff with Will Provine. He was the first person to tell me that my "view of the diety is so broad that you're an effective atheist." So even then, I was a practicing and ostensibly faithful Catholic who was only buying into that faith on a most abstract level. But I did keep it.

[Mojo]

The thread title begs the question a little.

I didn't cease to believe in God: I came to the conclusion that I had never believed in God. I had been observing (to a limited extent) religion because of social pressure to do so.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Part 2 - blind faith:

...

Just before my confirmation ...

...

The point is that, being naive to confirmation bias ...

...

:cool:

[Comrade Raptor]

I was never a believer, I just didn't care enough one way or the other.

But what finally committed me to atheism was the one-two punch of intolerance and hypocrisy.

Even as an atheist I'm tolerant of people who have faith. They can believe whatever suits them, it's not my business to try and tell them otherwise. I'm even content to listen and let them have their say about it.

But the hypocrisy, that bugs the ever living hell out of me. If somebody believes something, fine. But live it or shut up. I have no tolerance or respect for the "talk one way, do another" crowd.

[TobiasTheViking]

that.

too

[Blackadder]

My parents are active believers and my father is a minister. I am not sure when I started disbelieving , it must have been around the time I went to high school. However it took quite some time, at least 10 years to completely lose all doubt. The thing is, my parents are great people who are a great aid in the life of many other humans. For that reason I love and respect them and always hoped that it might be true after all. Only after discovering and understanding what personal suffering in their lives led them into religion I could truly dismiss belief as nothing more than human imagination.

I think deep down they know it is a personal thing, because they never put any pressure on their kids to follow their way. They provided it as an option, but not as an obligation. And they gave us an scientific education.

[PixyMisa]

I was a default atheist until I was 10. Back then there was religious instruction in public schools in Australia (once a month or something), and I went to religious summer camps, because they were cheap and well-organised.

At the age of 10, I realised that this stuff I was being told was important. And I became a devout if non-sectarian Christian.

At the age of 12, I realised that the only reason I believed any of this was because people were telling me it was true, and that it made no sense and wasn't supported by any evidence. It's probably no coincidence that that's the same age I discovered classical myth and science fiction - and got an adult library card.

Neither my conversion nor my deconversion involved any drama at all.

[Praktik]

I never really had a belief to lose in the first place, growing up in a secular household.

Family friends down the street were religious, and the mom even did a few bible lessons in the summer for neighbourhood kids. I went to them and had a great time. I was pretty young, but even then I just loved the stories and didn't feel like a god existed.

So i identified as agnostic for the longest time... and I would say its been in the last 10 years (I'm 29) when it felt comfortable to say "I'm an atheist".

While the answer to the existence of a higher power will never be known to me, I know I prefer to live in a universe without a higher power.

[a3sigma]

Never was a believer. Even as a child, found it impossible to believe in magic. Loved Bugs Bunny, but knew that he wasn't real, and neither was Jesus.

Beyond that, never really gave it much thought. Until, in High School, I used to run the auditorium, which was rented out on weekends to a variety of folks, including LDS, Evangelicals, Gospel Shows, etc... A couple of months listening to barrages of BS from so many different directions convinced me that religion is a form of insanity.

DC

[Kilgore Trout]

Raised a Catholic and went to Catholic school for 1st-6th. Growing up I had a friend that was a Baptist and had some odd sense of pride that I, as a Catholic, "got it right" because of Mass. The school I went to was either under the impression that everyone would finish through 8th (and I missed out on some vital information) or just inept. It wasn't until I became atheist that I even found out what transubstantiation was. I was never confirmed and didn't think it was really a big deal. I was Catholic, so I was going to heaven.

Some 12 years later I took a couple philosophy classes. One involved St. Augustine and Aquinas (I found the arguments pretty compelling). Another was more neutral (though not entirely; the instructor was from Notre Dame, there was only one student that identified as atheist). I had been reading A Brief History of Time and casually mentioned to one of the theistic students "So what if we don't have 'free will'?" He looked at me like I was an utter moron. I just let that slide and didn't think about it much.

A couple years later, I wondered how God could make people exist that were doomed from the start. Finding no answer, I firmly identified myself as a deist (with a heaven). Then about a year ago, I had something of a near-death experience and couldn't help thinking it was just the end and there was no heaven, but the jig was up. Now, atheist. I'd like to stick with the deist thing, but the bit about having no compelling reason to believe hinders it now.

The atheist student mentioned above has to qualify for the most awkward moment I've ever witnessed. The instructor asked about her being atheist and she said that it was because her brother was killed. The instructor said something like "What, was he hit by lightning?" "Yes, he was."

[Philosaur]

I was raised Roman Catholic by my fairly devout mother and my converted but not really committed father. I went to Sunday school every week, and remember feeling really uncomfortable the whole time. It seemed like I was the only one who didn't quite buy the whole story.

When I was about 7 or 8, I lied to my mom about something fairly minor (I ate ice cream when I wasn't supposed to or said I'd made my bed and really hadn't). While lying in bed, I reflected on the fact that lying (as in prevaricating--not being supine) is a sin, and that sinners go to hell. Then I pondered the meaning of eternity, and had a panic attack about the fact that I was going to burn in hell not for a hundred years, or a thousand years, but forever!

It was actually a very traumatizing night, and I thought about it often. A few years later, I reasoned that no loving God would ever allow a child to be that frightened, and so at least some of the stories about him must not be true. The more I thought about it, the more I found unbelievable, and when the time came to be confirmed, I refused. Needless to say, my mother was crushed, but I promised I'd keep looking for the truth, and went on to get a degree in philosophy.

So a night that literally scared the bejeezus out of me, along with a little education, led me to atheism.

[The Shrike]

Part 3 (of 3) - breaking free:

I cultivated in adulthood a religious view that there is one essential "lifeforce" or origin of all matter and energy, and that all faiths are merely culturally-filtered windows tapping into that same spirituality. I kept my science completely separate from my faith, reasoning that we use science to explain the "what" and "how," and spirituality to explain the "why."

I was kind of jolted out of that "multiple paths to the same god" notion by 9/11 and its aftermath. It hit home to me that Al Qaeda and I couldn't possibly be tapping into the same spirituality, or at least developing such disparate ways to access and respond to that spirituality. Between then and now, it's been a steady progression of "if they're wrong, then we must be too."

More recently, it's been my discovery of the skeptical movement that has helped a lot in finally breaking the hold of a lifetime of cow-towing to the Catholic Church. I realized that my entire spirituality was propped up with special pleading, and it was all blasphemy in the eyes of the Church anyway. So it really just has been the past couple of years that I've lifted this shroud and come to the obvious and inevitable conclusion - the spiritual presence was fictional to begin with.

As a recovering Catholic and fledgling atheist, I feel, liberated from silliness. Contrary to the opinions of many about their attitude toward others in a world without a god, I cherish fellow humans more than I ever did. I find it quite motivating to make the most of my time here now that I realize that there won't be a do-over on the other side!

Thanks for reading. I know my personal story isn't gripping reading for everyone (anyone?), but threads like this are a great way for me to put some thoughts together about my recent transformation, and it's still a difficult conversation to have with my family and many of my friends.

[Ausmerican]

Never had any belief in God to lose

This also.

[RandomJSF]

There was no epiphany for me. I think I've always been atheist... I can't remember thinking that what I was taught in RE about Christianity was actually real. It was all just stories to me.

My case was pretty much the same. I didn't go to a specifically religious school, but I don't ever remember actually *believing* the stories told in my Sunday Schooling. I remember being tasked to remember the names of the Apostles, but to me, they were just names. The stories were just that, interesting stories that sometimes had magic in them.

I do remember why I went along with it all, though. I knew that it was something I was *expected* to do, so I went along with it. I sang the hymns in church along with my father because it was interesting to sing along with a whole room full of people, and my father would bother me about it if I didn't at least pretend to sing.

As for when it actually occurred to me that I was an atheist... Hard to say. I don't think I actually actively thought about the non-existance of god until my twenties... Not too many years back. Up till then, I just sort of coasted along without really caring about it.

[Dunstan]

As a child, I guess I "believed" in the sense that I assumed it must be true since adults all seemed to believe it.

As a teenager, it became evident that people seemed to define God and his attributes, commands, etc. according to what they wanted to believe: hateful people believed in a god who hated; judgmental people believed in a judgmental god; nice people believed in a vaguely benevolent god. (It was sort of a reverse Pascal's Wager: there's no particular reason to favor one "version" of god over another, so people seemed to pick the one that made them feel best. I think that's part of what fuels some theists to accuse atheists of "choosing" atheism because (they think) it means we can do whatever they want.)

I realized that this seemed a little too convenient, and that nobody seemed to have any real, objective evidence for their beliefs. I didn't give it a lot of thought -- religion was never a big presence in my life in positive or negative terms -- but gradually I slid from "this whole god thing seems a little iffy" to "there's no good reason to believe it."

[DallasDad]

Hard to pinpoint. Certainly around 9 I had major questions and problems. My family were fundies, so there were logical flaws evident even to elementary schoolers. At that point, though, I don't think it would be fair to say I'd ceased to believe. I was more in problem-solving mode: The adults I trusted all told me it was complicated and that I'd understand when I was older, so giving up faith in God also meant giving up faith in my parents, pastors, and teachers. They couldn't all be wrong or lying, could they?

My parents themselves were fairly typical fundies: High on faith, low on education. They didn't approach religion from an analytical perspective. I quite quickly learned to discount their opinions, since they usually didn't understand either my questions or the urgency behind them. Others in my family, however, were deeply into apologetics, and came armed with C.S. Lewis, Langdon Gilkey, ontological arguments, Pascal's Wager, and other things that overpowered my preteen brain. I was a bright kid, but didn't have the wattage to out-argue adults.

Somewhere around 11 or 12, I realized that I had ceased to believe in pretty much anything said at church. With no exposure to other religions (other than the usual liturgical insistence that all non-fundies were either evil or deluded and going to hell anyway), I didn't really consider that God might exist in forms other than those preached in my family's church's creed. That left me with nothing other than vaguely troubling feelings that smart, educated persons didn't seem to see the same logical flaws I saw, and I was just a kid, so I'd better shut up about it.

I read Lewis Carroll for the first time when I was 13 (before that were only Disneyesque adaptations or children's books), and I remember quite clearly how I felt when I reached chapter 12 and Alice said, "Who cares for you? You're nothing but a pack of cards!" It was a bit of an epiphany for me: I finally understood that adults, regardless of intentions or sincerity, could be wrong -- not just mildly wrong, but disasterously wrong, wrong in propositions and wrong in conclusions. It was then that I realized I didn't have to try to believe any more.

The first time I used the word "atheist" to describe myself wasn't until I was an adult. While I lived under my family's roof, I respected them by refraining from discussion of religion. Internally, I was rolling my eyes and calling them all a pack of cards, but I kept my face straight and my mouth shut. When forced to talk about religion, I would invoke "help thou my unbelief" and "study to show thyself" and turn the conversation to how we should be living our lives. That distracted all but the brightest -- and those few were bright enough to refrain from arguing, too. They'd give me a hard, measuring stare, and turn the conversation.

It wasn't until I was out on my own that I felt free to express myself, and to ask others to stop bringing the matter up. My family kept trying to get me to go to church until I was in my 30's. I finally lost all patience and said, "You want me to go into a room with a bunch of people who are all pretending to talk to some guy who's been dead for 2000 years? No, thanks. It kind of weirds me out."

My father once told me he hoped God didn't have to do something terrible to me to bring me to my senses. At that point, he was blind, he had been diagnosed with cancer the month before, my mother had Alzheimer's, and their house had burned down while he was in the hospital. I wondered aloud why he wasn't listening to Thor, who was trying to bring him to a sensible belief in Asgard by doing such terrible things to him. I felt horrible afterward (and still do) for being such an insensitive jerk, but it was either that comment or a bout of weeping.

I don't know how my own children will fare. They've only been inside church buildings for funerals (two), architectural studies (in Europe, when no services were going on), and the older one once attended a Christmas pageant with a friend who invited him (songs only). They get grief in school from time to time, because we live in Texas and some kids bring their bibles to class and preach on the playground. My boys think of Jesus pretty much the same way they think of the Easter Bunny, Zeus, or Odin -- not much at all most of the time, and when confronted by a believer, they are puzzled. I'm not sure of the best way to inoculate them against the dangers. In a few years, when they're filled with teenage angst and looking for meaning in life, what's to prevent them from being taken in by well-meaning, compassionate, sincere Jebus wackos? It's all so much easier and simpler to surrender and believe rather than face reality and think things through. This keeps me up at night sometimes.

I wonder sometimes just how bad it is to be deluded about unproven and unprovable things. Does it do any real harm? Sure, there are clear cases where it leads to irrational or unfulfilling behavior, but most of it seems to be benign silliness. I suspect that most who call themselves believers don't really believe it. Church provides a social and emotional support structure, and if one must make obscure gestures and recite incantantations to be invited to lunch, well, it's free food, so what's the problem?

On the other hand, I honestly cannot understand how people survive with such cognitive dissonance. I'm a very procedural kind of guy. I'd have trouble tying my shoes if I followed the precepts of religion as it was taught in my family. If A doesn't lead to B, or if B isn't dependent on A, how can one move stepwise? How do they manage to use computers, become doctors, or understand science, if, at the core, they believe mutually incompatible premises? To me, it seems impossible: One or the other has to go. Yet most people seem quite comfortable operating toasters while believing scientists are just making guesses about how things work, or indulging conspiracies to foist their godless agenda on the innocent, God-fearing public.

I have to believe that such a starting point leads to either difficulty or inability to progress in the sciences, in philosophy, or in personal development. Douglas Adams had a calculator that rendered "A profusion of yellow" as the answer to any equation whose true answer was higher than it could display. Sounds about right.

[Mister Agenda]

Broken home: raised United Pentecostal (father) and Church of God (mother); with some exposure to the RC (step-mother) and the Methodists (step-father). Everybody was convinced everybody else was going to hell, which was a little stressful to me as a kid, but I tried to be a good little Pentecostal like my parents. I was so devout I read the KJV through one summer as a teenager. Then I read a modern English version to be sure I was reading it right. Then, at about 16, I became an agnostic theist: there might be a God, but please not the one described in the Bible!

I started considering myself an atheist about 15 years ago when I took a course in logic and intro to religion in the same semester.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I went to a catholic school as a kid, but to be fair I can't remember when I acutally believed any of the stories. Not that it played much of a role in school apart from the occasional youth mass and the nativity play.
So by the time I started to understand the substance behind the story I realized that the catholic/christian faith has as much substance as the greek pantheon, but is a far less interesting read.

[The Shrike]

Seem to be a lot of lapsed Catholics in this thread. If that's true (i.e. former Catholics are disproportionately represented among modern atheists here at the JREF), does this mean that Catholics are more likely than other faiths to reject their beliefs entirely or that Catholics are disproportionately represented among JREF discussion board participants? Of course, it could also mean something else or nothing at all . . .

[EvilVenture]

Another lapsed Catholic here, 13 years of Catholic school, and I thought I was a believer throughout. Then one day I started thinking about it and realized I never really believed it, I just went through the motions because that was all I knew. I hated going to church, I rarely prayed and when I did I never felt that it had any effect. What pushed me over the edge was when I started thinking about faith, I couldn't think of a reason why anyone besides a con artist would encourage someone to have blind faith. I also rejected the notion that a loving god would creat me with a capacity for logic then condemn me to Hell when I used that gift.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I had it coming from both sides; father is a hard-core Roman Catholic ala Bill Donohue or Mel Gibson. My mother's side are largely members of WELS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Evangelical_Lutheran_Synod). (Don't ask me how these two got together.) Most of my life, I adhered to my father's right-wing Catholicism and some of my moms Protestantism (I rejected her Creationism and hatred of D&D); condemning gays and abortion, spouting the BS rhetoric I heard on Rush Limbaugh, I even called a girl a "whore" in health class because she voiced a less than "Christian" opinion on pre-marital sex.

The change occurred in college. For the first couple of years I held on to my conservative beliefs until I took an introductory philosophy course where the questionsof god's existence were raised. I found that I had a hard time responding to the atheist positions brought forward. That put the dreaded seeds of doubt into my head. Eventually, religion stopped making sense and my right wing social views started to crumble as well. On top of that, I took several classes on Medieval history got the real story about what religion does to the world. It destroys it.

I was wrong in the past. I have a lot of wrong beliefs to make up for and I don't intend to be wrong again. That's why I'm an atheist.

[gethane]

I was agnostic from my teens on, but then at 30 I read Sagan's The Demon Haunted World and began to accept atheism philosophically, and then the tsunami in 2004 sealed the deal. I could no longer even wonder if a deity that was "all loving, omnipotent, and paternal" would allow such horror and tragedy to exist. It took longer than that to "come out" to (most of) my family and friends (in rural Nebraska). Now I live in godless Berkeley and its all good.

It was the whole "god loves us as his children thing" that did me in. I have 5 children, and I would not stand by and allow tragedy to befall them if I could stop it.

[Maia]

My mother dragged me to every weird church in the known universe. I was baptized Mormon, lived in a Buddhist commune as a toddler, alternated between Baptist and Assembly of God Sunday schools, also went to some weird religious Sunday school based on an Indian kid who was supposed to be Jesus reborn, went to Catholic and Lutheran schools, was confirmed Presbyterian, taught Wesley Methodist Sunday school (there was about one child in it most of the time, because half of the congregation was 150 years old and the other half was gay), and was in Intervarsity Christian Fellowship in college.

(take short iced tea break)

I am now a Christian non-theist converted by John Shelby Spong. His theology explains it all! :)

[Ravynn123]

I am in the process of shedding the religious baggage that I have been carrying since I was a child. I grew up catholic, went through many different religions looking for answers finally ended up Muslim and now I am so sick and tired of the hate, the lies, the contradictions, just the bs of religion. Right now I am in the mind set of agnostic and starting to lead closer and closer to atheist every day.

I have this forum and all of you here to thank for opening my eyes. Thank you. :)

[yy2bggggs]

Ah, what an interesting thread.

I was raised a Southern Baptist, by a converted mother (from Church of God) and a Baptist father, in a fairly religious family, and was heavily into fundamentalism--the good old Born Again, Jack Chick, southern style. I attended church fairly regularly; we went to prayer meetings on Wednesdays, I participated in Bible Drills at the church, went to summer camps, vacation bible school, and my share of revivals. I've also gone "witnessing" as a teen (using the Roman Road) on Tuesdays quite a few times (though not highly regularly).

I attended a private, Christian college, where I got my BS degree, which actually turned out to be a pretty decent college. About midway through I simply started questioning my belief's foundations, due to certain things that didn't make sense, a growing appreciation for people in other cultures, and a simple humble quest--to try to figure out why I believed what I believed.

I went through a "deist" phase for a bit and came out the other side with a clearer head. Fast forward some hundreds of moons and here I am.

[uruk]

I was born into catholicisim. Followed the motions untill I was in my mid teens when I started to give some concious thought to the whole road show.

I realized that god had nothing to do with religion and that peoples idea of god was based on thier own limited view of the world and existance.

Today, I am about as athiest as an agnostic can get. It's not that I am holding on to any hope for god's existance, it's that you really can't be so absolutist in your thinking considering how limited our knowledge and understanding is of this existance or universe.

The world out there is much bigger than the world in your head.

[portlandatheist]

I grew up in a Christian fundamentalist family so I was a believer for quite some time. It was somewhere between the ages of 13 to 14 that I made the most profound discover, even more important than the simple question of whether God exists or not and that is:
"God" does not intervene in the natural world. This has profound implications:
1. God neither causes nor prevents natural disasters
2. God doesn't cause nor prevent cancer
3. God doesn't care who gets laid, when or where
4. God doesn't take sides in a war
5. God doesn't care if I'm rich or poor
6. And so on
This revelation was much more important to me personally than the matter of existence or nonexistence. Some years later I gave up the title of agnostic and stuck with atheist but that is second to the realization that God(if exists) is micromanaging or not.

[L. Ron Hoover]

Great thread. I was raised Catholic and went to 10 years of Catholic school. I always thought when God failed to answer Jesus - his own son - being tortured to death, that there was something wrong with that scenario, as it defied everything I understood about family and love. So that was the start, but I have to admit, I was locked in to the OCD (irrational fear of bad outcomes if certain rituals weren't performed) of religion at least until halfway through high school.

The FIRST mention by ANYONE that I can remember that God MIGHT be nonsense was Steve Martin in the "Wild and Crazy Guy" album, track 2, "Philosophy/Religion/College/Language." There he actually said that, in college, he was told that religion was all nonsense (you can guess the actual word he used, or buy the album). Wow! I thought to myself at the time, I wonder if when we get to college, the story of God would would join Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. That really started to get the critical thinking wheels turning and I started to find an increasing number of flaws in the arguments in religion and the "evidence" of God.

Well, Steve was right about one thing, I did lose my religion in college, but not because anyone came out and said it was a myth. No, it was more like death by a thousand paper cuts. Between History and Anthropology, the truth was emerging. In history, I could see religion mainly being used as a political tool (not much has changed...) and in anthropology (and especially biological anthropology) God was no where to be found (or needed, for that matter). But the crushing blow probably came, oddly enough, by studying statistics for the first time. That sort tied it up all together and made "miracles" merely outlier events. Do ALL people die when their parachute doesn't open? No. Some people, for a variety of reasons, escape the odds and live. We tend to call that a "miracle." Do all people live when they go in for routine surgery? No. Some people, for a variety of reasons, have enormous complications and die during an otherwise simple procedure. We tend to call that a "tragedy."

Once miracles, tragedies, and life was explained, God became less and less necessary. By the end of college, I was pretty much agnostic. Over the years, though, I've adopted a more atheistic philosophy. As the years went on (whoah....I'm getting old), I decided that being "agnostic" v. "atheistic" came down to one basic question: Do you believe a supernatural being is POSSIBLE? (forget probable...that's long gone) And I have to answer as follows: No.

[383LQ4SS]

My first recollection of non-belief was when I was very young. Maybe 5-6 years old. I remember my family was in a car driving...my dad was trying to keep me occupied and was encouraging me to sing along with the radio. I didnt get why he wanted me to sing along so I asked "dad...why do people sing?"
His answer..."God likes people who sing"

That didnt set well with me on many levels...even at 5-6 it did not compute...lol.

From that time on I was waiting for evidence of god ( I didnt know it was evidence that I was waiting for at that time) and of course to this day....some 35 years later... I have found none.

[Gawdzilla]

Never had any belief in God to lose

Dittoness. Never interested in "god" of any kind other than as a story in a book. Thrown out of Sunday School at age 7 for asking questions the preacher couldn't answer.

[ingoa]

Never ceased. Never started in the first place.Although I did my confirmation due to parent pressure.

[Fengirl]

I had no religious influence from my family, but at the impressionable age of around thirteen, some local evangelical Christians sank their hooks into me. I was a “born-again Christian” for most of my teens. I loved DallasDad’s turn of phrase:

...well-meaning, compassionate, sincere Jebus wackos?


Yeah, that was them, in a nutshell! I swallowed much of what they told me, but somehow I was always anxious, ashamed and guilt-ridden because I didn’t feel any of the joy and peace I was supposed to be feeling at being “saved”. Prayer didn’t work, the bible didn’t make any sense and just about everything that made you feel good was “a sin”. I kept thinking I must be “doing it wrong” and re-doubled my efforts at being a good Christian, but no matter how much sincere praying, church-going and bible-study I took part in, nothing changed. I was carrying a terrible burden of guilt and felt like a faker.

Although there was some comfort in “belonging” to something, when I looked around me at my fellow Christians, I started to notice that most of them were a bit… odd. They were certainly no happier than my non-Christian friends, and as I got older, I started to realise that they weren’t nicer or kinder or wiser or more emotionally-healthy than anyone else. Quite the opposite, in fact. I saw some incredibly mean, cruel and stupid things said and done “in the name of Jesus.” I gradually drifted away from the evangelicals, initially to a more laid-back Methodist church, and then after some years of further soul-searching finally gave up on Christianity and stopped going to church completely.

I didn’t start referring to myself as an atheist until I was in my thirties. By that time, I had read a lot more, thought a lot more and studied a lot more. I flirted with a sort of nondescript “spirituality” for some time and still clung to a belief that there must be “something” to all this religious stuff. I was interested in L Ron Hoover’s comment (above) that…

...the crushing blow probably came, oddly enough, by studying statistics for the first time.


… because that was partly true for me, too. Studying psychology and research methods at university profoundly altered my understanding of how our minds work, how we know what is “true” and why we believe the things we believe. At some level, I had known all along that Christianity had sold me a lie but, until I began to understand the psychology of scientific reasoning, I couldn’t begin to unravel some of the knots those Christians had tied in my brain.

Paradoxically, it was only when I openly embraced my atheism that I finally found the peace and joy I had originally been searching for. It was like putting down a heavy weight that I’d carried for years.

[ynot]

No person in the world has ever been born a theist and people only become theists because they are influenced to do so by people that have themselves been influenced by others to become theists. Not all people succumb to this influence and always remain atheists (myself for instance). For these people there is nothing to “cease“.

Theism is the result of nurture not nature.

A more relevant question to ask would be - “How, when (and more importantly) why did you become a theist (commence your beliief in a god)?”

[Gawdzilla]

Never ceased. Never started in the first place.Although I did my confirmation due to parent pressure.

Ohhh, you're going to hell for that. :D

[shandyjan]

The thread title begs the question a little.

I didn't cease to believe in God: I came to the conclusion that I had never believed in God. I had been observing (to a limited extent) religion because of social pressure to do so.

That sums me up a little. I dont know if I ever really believed, so much as was scared by the the threads of hell. I tried to believe a few times. There was no holy spirit filling me, as I'd been told would happen if I asked. No visions, no questions answered. I think I'd come to the decision it was all a fable, when I lost a baby, and darn it, I wanted to believe that she was in a nice place! I prayed and begged. And it was people who got me through, not even religious people! And, I got myself through the heartache.
I dont think I gave it serious thought either way until I discussed it with my athiest partner of 11 years. He was so sure. I only recently actually said 'I'm an athiest'. And having an op at xmas for the first time ever in the box marked religion I put 'none'.

[Kilgore Trout]

The mention of being filled with the Holy Spirit reminded me of being told that you know you want to be a priest when you're filled with the Holy Spirit and hear God's calling. I remember that scaring me quite a bit because, even at a young age, I certainly didn't want to be a priest and it sounded like I had no say in the matter.

[Hlafordlaes]

I finally realized I was a theist to justify my moral sense, not the other way around. Faith provided me with a way to explain my adherence to, basically, the golden rule. I now have other means.

When I was teenager, a free-loving hippy at the time, blissful and unbelieving, I saw an advertisement for some pants designed by Eldrige Cleaver that had an external, man-shape-fitting cod piece that shocked me to the core. I realized even I wanted limits, but had no means for arguing them.

I read the Bible as a young adult, largely absent external pressure yet under an enormous inner pressure to find a reasoned ethical stance. I found a great deal to admire in Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and, like Thomas Jefferson, that part of the New Testament consisting of what Jesus said (or is said to have said). I particularly enjoyed the humility and simple purity of a Russian Orthodox book, The Way of The Pilgrim. I still re-read the confession by that wandering, impoverished good man to a priest in Archangel from time to time, to remind me of my ever-potent hubris and excessive self-regard.

I also found St. Augustine's arguments of First Cause appealing at the time, although they certainly imply no specifics.

So I was an avid Christian theist for a time, enjoying CS Lewis and the like, though often shocked by the enormous gap between the clear basic Christian tenets of non-violence, brotherly love and forgiveness, and the then-nascent US Xian self-righteous foaming.

Disgusted, I still did not permit myself to become an atheist until I had developed a alternate means to generate cogent arguments to continue to act in a Christian way, yet without subscribing to faith or deism.

I am a strange bird now. After a transition through cold logic, and swearing allegiance to fact, reason and proof, I am an atheist. Yet I find that empathy is the finest response of an aware mind to its own existence and that of others, and consider the rise of thought beyond the urgings of survival sublime, indeed, the only aspect of humanity that gives us any sort of claim to being at all enlightened, or even interesting, and not simply the top predator du jour.

I am a secular disciple in a universe of wonders, which you will see beneath my avatar when JREF posting minima allow, in Old English:

Hlafordlaes, ðe liurning cnicht
"Lordless, the disciple"

[Burning Beard]

I never for one second believed in the Christian "God". Any ideas of a spirit world or afterlife just eroded over time from lack of evidence, despite having an interest in the paranormal for many years.

[Maia]

Today, I am about as athiest as an agnostic can get. It's not that I am holding on to any hope for god's existance, it's that you really can't be so absolutist in your thinking considering how limited our knowledge and understanding is of this existance or universe.

The world out there is much bigger than the world in your head

I like this. Very Spong-esque, and sums it up, pretty much.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Any luck?

Lets just say I'm an atheist.

[ArmillarySphere]

I was raised in a pretty laid-back free church called "Church of the Mission". My parents are the typical Swedish church-goers, meaning they went to church at Christmas and that was it. As for me, I bought into the whole deal for quite some time; it wasn't until university that I started thinking for myself. I've since then gradually drifted from agnosticism to outright atheism.

What brought me over were two things: One, that I never did agree with the doctrine of original sin. It simply seemed broken that you would have to be one of the few who were born in a Christian society to get saved - I always figured it was more important to behave well towards others than toe the official line. Secondly, the ten commandments were simply weird. Ban against pictures? And don't get me started on the whole Leviticus...

Finally, I figured that if the only reason you're being decent toward someone is so you can go play harp with S:t Peter, you're still a douchebag. Since most of the rulebook is hopelessly out of touch with reality, you're better off figuring out your own path anyway. For a long time I considered myself a "convinced agnostic - I don't know, and it should not matter". But considering the utter lack of evidence for a deity, holding that idea open is somewhat silly. I still try to give believers some space, as long as they give me the same respect.

[RecoveringYuppy]

I never believed either.

As a kid I did go to a Baptist Sunday school and listened to the fairy tales. Only reason I went was because the girl I played doctor with went. Around the time I turned 12 they started asking me to attend the adult Church services, get baptised, accept Jesus as my saviour, and questioning me about the literal truth of the bible (apparently it was a fundy Baptist church). I reacted as if it was a coming of age test and said things along the line of "You couldn't possibly believe I'm that stupid could you?". I can remember spending the next couple of years thinking about why I was an atheist and other people weren't.

Up until that time I don't think it had ever occurred to me that anyone took the stories told in Sunday School seriously. It just seemed so bleeding obvious that they were fairy tales. I had noticed that people took the baptism ritual seriously. And I never liked the "feel" of the place when someone was baptised. In retrospect it appeared cultish (and it is).

[fembot]

Yet another former Catholic here. I was raised in the church and went to parochial school until I was ten. It was a good education, even with the crazy old nun in 4th grade. I even learned about evolution (in a good way), something I'm not sure I would have gotten in the Arkansas public schools at that time. I never questioned my belief in god or the church.

Fast forward to sophomore year in college, Intro to Western Civilization. The class was having a discussion about the ancient Greeks and their contributions to art, literature, and mathematics. And all one of my classmates could do was call them stupid for believing in so many gods when there is clearly only one god. Oh, yes, everyone agreed it was silly to believe in all those gods.

Three days later, I'm in church. The priest is giving the homily. I'm sitting in the pew listening and suddenly it hits me: It's the same freakin' thing! The number of gods doesn't make any difference at all. We're just as silly as the ancient Greeks.

BOOM! Instant atheist.

[rainbeau]

I never actually believed. As a kid, I wanted to, because all my friends did. So I asked questions, trying to understand things so I could believe. And somehow "just have faith" and "quit asking questions or you're not saved anymore" didn't work for me.

In my teens, I started looking elsewhere. I found a lot of good things in other religions, especially nature based religion. Because after all, unlike some invisible god, you can actually see nature at work.

I'm sure believers will say that god is acting through nature to reveal himself. In fact, that was what my parents told me. When I didn't buy it, they switched to reminding me of all the good stuff god does and all the bad stuff in nature. I said "oh you mean like the flood that GOD sent to wipe out the world?"

Their argument went from FAIL to EPIC FAIL when they tried to tell me that god had provided the church with exactly the amount of money they needed to build a new wing. After all, no amount of tree hugging dirt worshipping paganism can do that. But watching the church build a multi-million dollar recreation center for the youth group, instead of putting that money to better use in the community, thus at least attempting to earn their tax exempt status, did nothing to inspire me to belief in god.

I'm going to stop here before I say anything more about tax exemption for churches.

[kedo1981]

When I woke up

[Belz...]

Atheists How and when did you cease belief in God?

Never was very faithful to start with. I always had problems with the tenets of religion. Mainly omnipresence and the idea of salvation through Jesus' cruxifiction never made sense to me. I just realised, as the years went by, that I just didn't believe. It's just a good thing we live in an era that allowed me to say it.

[Dragonrock]

I was raised catholic. When I was 14 I discovered my mother's collection of older science fiction and began reading. Eventually I started on her rather extensive collection of Issac Asimov. He has a book called "Before the Golden Age" which is a collection, not of his stories, but rather the stories that pushed him into the world of science. Each story had an autobiographical introduction by Asimov and I learned about his life. I don't remember a specific moment when my belief ended, but Asimov got me started.

[TimCallahan]

I grew up in the urbs - Palo Alto, Caliornia - and wasraised in a system (or actually non-system) of benign neglect when it came to religion. My parents would start to go to chrch regularly, because they thought they should. I ws then forced to go to Sunday school. After a bit, my folks would stop going and eventually stop making me go to Sunday school. The churches wer all sort of the general Protestant variety. I grew up lovng books on prehistoric animals and was never indoctrinated with anything approaching creationism. Thus, my belief in God had to do with an author of what were essentially secular ethics, wo was also the creator of everything, using evolution as his method, and mutation and natural selection as his tools.

When I was in seventh grade, some neighbors got my folks interested in the local Presbyterian Church, and I was very much involved in the youth groups through high school. I lost a great deal of my religion in the Navy (1961 - 1964) and never got back into chrch-going after that. Still, i did believe in sort of a teleological Deist type of God.

I gradually realized that my belief system was simply a way of being an official believer and being able to hold on to the concepts of havng a soul and eternal life of some sort without really having God in the way. Nevertheless, the public caricature of the unpleasant atheist was such that still shied away from applying to myself the dreaeded "A" word. In fact, I still eld on to the shards of some sort of belief in some sort of God even while I was writing Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment? (1997), though I had effortlessly shed that last remanants of belief and come to grips with accepting the dreaded "A" word by the time I started working on Secret Origins of the Bible (published in 2002).

So my drift into atheism was gradual, even imperceptible, and largely without trauma; and I was effectively atheist well before I acknowledged it.

[ripsaw_22]

I was raised without the influence of religion in my family. My father is a scientist, so it stands to reason that science had a far greater influence over my upbringing than mythology. And I'm very thankful for it :)

[Soapy Sam]

This seems to be a perennial question here.
Like several others, I don't recall ever believing in gods.
I don't think many kids do, unless they are told they should.

[Tumblehome]

Good point. I was a believer as a kid only because it was the default position I grew up in, thanks to parents, school and society in general.

I was about ten years old as well when I lost the religion I never really had. One day I just realized that what I saw going on around me didn't match what the bible said, and that was that. People could lie and get away with it to their advantage, and people could do good and suffer for it. There didn't seem to be any force that was guiding people's actions or even recognizing them. They were doing everything, good and bad, all on their own.

[arthwollipot]

I've told my story a few times before, but there's no reason not to do so again. :)

I was raised in an apatheistic family. My parents would probably have expressed belief if they were pressed, but religion certainly didn't play any part whatsoever in daily life. We didn't say grace unless we felt like it, we didn't go to church, and damned if I can recall us ever even owning a bible. However, my brother did receive Anglican confirmation - I don't know why, since it was the first and the last time he stepped into a church.

My conversion to Christianity I have documented (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=35452). After I left the church I drifted for a little before starting to get interested in neoPaganism. This was when I started to read Tarot cards and runes. I started to learn how to calculate natal horoscopes. I considered becoming a Wiccan priest but never followed through with it. I never stopped that the way I stopped going to church - I just gradually lost interest. Non-coincidentally this was around the time that I started reading about science.

I got caught up by an online conversation about evolution. I can't even remember what the argument was all about, but I didn't do very well at it. I went online looking for more information, and found a forum (sadly offline right now) about creationism/evolution and started posting there regularly. I bought my first Dawkins book (The Blind Watchmaker). That led to others - Gould, Gribbin, Davies, Fortey, Greene...

It was the science books that led to the realisation that I was an atheist. I was reading The Elegant Universe when I suddenly realised that the universe hangs together all by itself, without any need for any kind of deity to intervene. I realised that God Is Redundant. I looked up and said to myself "Hey, I guess that means that I'm an atheist now. Cool." and went back to reading.

So I lost my woo gradually, over a period of quite a few years, before I realised that I was an atheist.

[godless dave]

I was about 7. Santa Claus didn't make any sense. I realized Jesus didn't either.

My parents were semi-believers who didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus. They didn't really indoctrinate me with anything, except encourage me to think for myself.

[devnull]

Never had any belief in it to lose.

I would be one of those people that Hitchens refers to as being "unable to believe".

[Cainkane1]

I was about 7. Santa Claus didn't make any sense. I realized Jesus didn't either.

My parents were semi-believers who didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus. They didn't really indoctrinate me with anything, except encourage me to think for myself.
Baptist ministers are telling parents not to let their child believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. They say these beliefs cause atheism later in life. Guess what? They're right. However I was a believer in the diety for awhile after I learned about the imaginaries and then I came to realise the who supernatural nonsense was imaginary.

[coldcanuk]

My path to atheism was the result of indulgence in religion and spirituality. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. My parents did not baptize my brother and I until later in our childhood years. I attended Church and Sunday school, like many other children in the small town. By my teen years, I began exploring other religions and spiritual paths. This was a result of curiosity, and the typical teenage path of self-discovery. Thus I was a Roman Catholic, to a Wiccan, to a spiritual healer, to a Taoist (of sorts ..). I do vividly remember growing a distaste for organized religion, but was fond of spirituality. However, my desire to find God or Gods (or god and gods... dammit Zeus!! :P) culminated to my complete disbelief in the belief of "out there" "heaven(hell)" just slightly before my University time.

Though, my quest for spirituality has never ended (even though I thought it had once upon a time). It has simply changed. Rather then looking through ghost stories, or old tales, rituals and spells (take that Harry Potter! :P), I tend to focus and draw morality more from empirical experiences, knowledge and debates. Example, look at the biblical 10 commandments and then look at Marcus Aurelius' 14 virtues.

Oh.. as a footnote, I complete admit that University has ruined my poor fragile brain !

[Abdul Alhazred]

All this talk of Santa Claus reminds me of a poem by Robert Service.
http://theotherpages.org/poems/service2.html#sceptic

My Father Christmas passed away
When I was barely seven.
At twenty-one, alack-a-day,
I lost my hope of heaven.

Yet not in either lies the curse:
The hell of it's because
I don't know which loss hurt the worse --
My God or Santa Claus.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Jack Chick on the same subject.

Santa ==> atheism ==> nihilistic insane murder

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1033/1033_01.asp

:eek:

[bookitty]

Currently an agnostic. Previously a Christian but didn't really think about it. Until I got into an arguement with an more devout Christian over the Passion of The Christ. Examined my belief in Christ and realized that somewhere along the way had left it behind. Spent a brief time trying to rekindle blind faith but there was nothing there to work with.

Here's an odd thing, a few of the more fundamental Christians, proselytizers and backward name spellers have accused atheists & agnostics of turning their back on God in order to do bad things guilt-free. My fading of belief happened at the same time that I became more aware of the problems in the world. It was during the time that I was doing the most good, restructuring my life to have less impact and investing the most time in helping others. The two aren't related, one didn't cause the other, but my lack of belief had nothing to do with anything nefarious or even selfish.

[Dunstan]

Here's an odd thing, a few of the more fundamental Christians, proselytizers and backward name spellers have accused atheists & agnostics of turning their back on God in order to do bad things guilt-free.

That always seems like such a bizarre accusation to me. If I could "choose" my beliefs based on maximum freedom and social advantage, I'd be a liberal Christian. By choosing which parts (if any) of Christian tradition and the Bible to follow, and jettisoning the rest, and adding in some vague generalities about God being loving, I'd have basically the same moral structure I do now, plus the "belief" that I'm getting forgiven for any sins. I'd also get to be part of the majority in this culture, and would get to piously condemn both the fundamentalists who warp my wonderful religion and those mean, nasty atheists.

[a_unique_person]

Seem to be a lot of lapsed Catholics in this thread. If that's true (i.e. former Catholics are disproportionately represented among modern atheists here at the JREF), does this mean that Catholics are more likely than other faiths to reject their beliefs entirely or that Catholics are disproportionately represented among JREF discussion board participants? Of course, it could also mean something else or nothing at all . . .

Of course, Catholics are better :), even the lapsed ones.

Raised a Catholic, and listened to, and was terrified by, the stories of heaven and hell, and sin and especially mortal sin. I would be freaked out, but most kids it all just went right over their heads, and they just kept sinning like nothing had happened. Confession was torture, especially as I got older. "Impure thoughts" anyone? Masturbation? "Was there any issue?". If there was or wasn't, made it a worse sin, and a longer penance. Maybe ten Hail Marys instead of eight?

I realised while I was being told all this stuff, and terrified and tortured by it all, that I didn't have any sense that there was actually a god out there was listening to a damn thing I said or prayed for. I had a stammer, and found it hard to communicate. Getting tormented for that and finding nothing coming back in response to prayers, just the usual deafening silence, had me doubting there was anything. My parents did a bit of the pentecostal thing for a while, too, there was a wave of it swept throught the Catholic church for a while. Speaking in tongues was pretty impressive, but I couldn't seem to get the hang of it. Don't know how everyone else managed it, but I was pretty damned sure there was still nothing there. Started to get more and more freaked out by it all. One night my mother, who seemed to be pretty oblivious to it all, decided she had a child who was freaking out, and decided to help me by praying over me. Once again, that deafening silence.

They finally put me onto someone who had been a pentecostal catholic but had dropped out to a degree. They all seemed to respect him. He told me the flowers were gods creation, but didn't get too fussed about it all, no freaking out there. Looking back I think he had become some sort of a deist. This seemed to be a way out for me. If the flowers didn't give a damn, then why did I? If I didn't have to care about a god, and could live as if he didn't exist, then why all the rigmarole with a catholic church and torturing kids minds with threats of eternal damnation. God didn't seem to care either way. He certainly didn't seem to be obliged to respond to any prayer. If he more or less didn't exist, then he didn't.

It was such a relief to not have to try to convince myself that something that didn't exist did exist. Of course, being an atheist isn't easy either. Instead of being handed your morality on a plate, you now had to work at it.

[jimgerrish]

You mean I'm not allowed to believe in god if I'm an athiest? Damn! You guys run a tight organization!

[willhaven]

It was sometime in my early 20's. It was a slow process starting in my late teens. I just started to ask questions about things that didn't make sense to get more understanding. The more questions I asked, the more I realized that answers either didn't exist or weren't logical.

I can go into why I don't believe in the Christian faith that I followed for so long, but it's more about the very basic rules that drive salvation and damnation than it is about biblical contradictions and the type of thing that typically stirs up big conversations. More philosophical than a lack of evidence kind of things.

[bookitty]

That always seems like such a bizarre accusation to me. If I could "choose" my beliefs based on maximum freedom and social advantage, I'd be a liberal Christian. By choosing which parts (if any) of Christian tradition and the Bible to follow, and jettisoning the rest, and adding in some vague generalities about God being loving, I'd have basically the same moral structure I do now, plus the "belief" that I'm getting forgiven for any sins. I'd also get to be part of the majority in this culture, and would get to piously condemn both the fundamentalists who warp my wonderful religion and those mean, nasty atheists.

Even odder is the idea of choosing one's faith as if it's a micro-brew. "Hmm...I'm looking for something light, slightly sweet but not too frothy..."

[Peter i]

........

I was raised in an apatheistic family. ........

That's a nice name for it!

Same here, only went to church for weddings, funerals, christmas, confirmation and the like.
Danish schools have a class called "Kristendomskundskab" ("Knowledge of christianity").... normally not taken particularly serious by neither children nor teacher... really a waste of time. It has since changed in the direction of dealing with religions in general and a very limited preaching.


Never really believed, and the more I learned, the more the pieces of the great world puzzle would fit together.... apart from the religious ones.

And that was about it.

When it is relevant, I still go to church for weddings, funerals (far too many), confirmations and the like. There does not seem to be any alarm on the doors checking for apostates.



In Denmark you save quite a bit of money not being a member of the "Danish National Church". 90% of the ethnic Danes are, but that is probably only because they have to say actively "No, I quit" and that the membership is paid over the taxes, not really seeing it in the everyday budget.

[Everett Spair]

Never believed in any god. some christians tried to convert me at a very young age but they never succeeded as the only "proof" they had vas some rather bad stories about people.

I find the title of the thread amusing. It assumes we are born with a blief in a god. Sorry but from my perspective we are born with no faith in any god. and any faith are simply taught and not something you have from the beginning.

[arthwollipot]

That's a nice name for it!Certainly not my own coinage, but it does describe much of Australia, in my experience.

[båtsman]

Never had any belief, at least not that I can remember.

[AdinDraco]

Satan did it for me. Even as a very young kid I always wondered why he would punish sinners. Then it came to me - Satan and the demons work for God! Also it concerned me that so many guardians of morality couldn't keep their dicks in their pants when around the kiddies....then years of god being a non-issue was followed by the precious gift of an ipod. I listened to the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe and something clicked inside. Then I discovered the Atheist Experience and it clicked again.

Thinking about it now, I recall playing Judas in a play in primary school and being secretly thrilled that I got to betray jesus. Clearly demonic influences at work.

[Mark6]

I was raised in an apatheistic family. My parents would probably have expressed belief if they were pressed, but religion certainly didn't play any part whatsoever in daily life. We didn't say grace unless we felt like it, we didn't go to church, and damned if I can recall us ever even owning a bible. However, my brother did receive Anglican confirmation - I don't know why, since it was the first and the last time he stepped into a church.

My conversion to Christianity I have documented (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=35452). After I left the church I drifted for a little before starting to get interested in neoPaganism. This was when I started to read Tarot cards and runes. I started to learn how to calculate natal horoscopes. I considered becoming a Wiccan priest but never followed through with it...
My story is somewhat similar. I was raised an atheist -- or rather, agnostic. I don't think my parents ever talked about god -- to them it was simply a non-topic. About age of 16 I tried to figure out that maybe there is something to religion. After about two years I came to conclusion that Judeo-Christian god is either a contradiction or an abomination, and either way deserves no worship. After that I was a practicing pagan for 4-5 years until coming to conclusion that this too is a woo.

[Mark6]

I find the title of the thread amusing. It assumes we are born with a blief in a god. Sorry but from my perspective we are born with no faith in any god. and any faith are simply taught and not something you have from the beginning.
That struck me too. In fact, until I saw that OP author was Cainkane1, I was sure it came from Yrreg or someone like him. Blithe assumption that belief in god is a natural state of affairs, and "something went wrong" for a person to become an atheist. (No, I am not accusing Cainekane1 of that!)

[linusrichard]

When? Don't recall exactly, maybe age 12 or so. How? I simply applied the same reasoning to God that I applied to Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny. It always strikes me slightly odd that there aren't more atheists, considering that almost no sane adult has a literal belief in any of those other three, and it's the exact same thought process.

[linusrichard]

I find the title of the thread amusing. It assumes we are born with a blief in a god.

No, it assumes that you had a belief in God at some time in the past. It doesn't assume that the belief is there at birth or acquired later - it could be either one. (Still an incorrect assumption for some, but correct for most here, I'd guess.)

Sorry but from my perspective we are born with no faith in any god. and any faith are simply taught and not something you have from the beginning.

Yes, this is correct.

[devnull]

Certainly not my own coinage, but it does describe much of Australia, in my experience.

Agreed, and sums my western australian family up nicely.

[Smiledriver]

I lost my faith at age 32. I decided to ask myself: should I ever take anything on faith. The answer was no, and after that religion fell pretty fast and I discarded it.

It felt great.

[Astreja]

I didn't cease to believe in God: I came to the conclusion that I had never believed in God.That's fairly close to my experience. Over the years I've often thought that it would be cool if {supernatural being} existed, and conversed with said being in my imagination.

And then, over the last few years, I moved from weak theism to agnostic theism to agnostic atheism. The turning point was when I said to myself, "Okay, as much as I'd like to think that Oðinn is my mentor, I would not testify in court that he actually exists. I have no empirical evidence, so from now on I'm going to assume that all gods are simply mental archetypes until I find evidence to the contrary."

[fishbob]

Never had any belief in God to lose

Yah. Also

[Dancing David]

Strangely, I never really beilved in gods, just found them as convinient placeholders. Then I took antidepressants and all those feelings went away.

[kedo1981]

So what have we established here?
Atheist’s “don’t stop” (or never did) believing because:

§ Because they hate God!
§ Because they want to behave badly!
§ Worship Satan!
§ Want to sleep in on Sunday!
§ Don’t want to answer so their sins
That about got it.

[X]

So what have we established here?
Atheist’s “don’t stop” (or never did) believing because:

§ Because they hate God!
§ Because they want to behave badly!
§ Worship Satan!
§ Want to sleep in on Sunday!
§ Don’t want to answer so their sins
That about got it.


True. We're atheists because we want to masturbate. Guiltlessly.



And I think the OP assumes a loss of faith because most people in the world were raised in a religious (to varying degrees) household, and brought up in the faith of their parents. People brought up in non-religious or even openly atheistic households are, I think, less common than people brought up in religious household. Hence, more atheists will have stopped believing in a god they were raised to believe in than will have never believed.
Although it would be interesting to do a poll and see how many members here deconverted to atheism vs. how many were never theistic/deistic.

[MetalPig]

Never had any belief in God to lose
Same here.

[Soapy Sam]

Cainkane1's wording is interesting-

Atheists How and when did you cease belief in God?

Note the (implied) presumption that there was an initial belief, which lapsed, under some influence. This from someone who is himself an atheist.

For believers- and it seems , some atheists, this is the default presumption.

Yet it seems clear that many people never believe- and that none do so spontaneously unless convinced by other, usually older people. Nobody dreams it up by himself.
This seems to support Dawkins' point that "No child is born Christian / Muslim / Jew/ etc". He must be indoctrinated.

The question would be more accurate, it seems reworded as "What influenced you to abandon your initial atheism?"

[The True Scotsman]

I became an atheist bit by bit. In high school (I went to a catholic one) I became disillusioned with Christianity. In my second year of college, I began studying philosophy (in my own time, not as a major) and read the argument for God's existence, which lead me to believe that God didn't exist, though thinking back, I might have still been grasping on to some form of belief in a higher power. Then, I bounced back to theism a bit after being convinced by the non-overlapping majesterium (which didn't last long). After about 3 month of that, I came back to atheism, after studying logic more and gaining a better grasp on it, as well as coming to the conclusion that truth was more important to me than comfort.

[Mark6]

And I think the OP assumes a loss of faith because most people in the world were raised in a religious (to varying degrees) household, and brought up in the faith of their parents. People brought up in non-religious or even openly atheistic households are, I think, less common than people brought up in religious household.
In US it is certainly true. In Europe, not necessarily.

Although it would be interesting to do a poll and see how many members here deconverted to atheism vs. how many were never theistic/deistic.
Poll should be more than 2 choices -- see my earlier post on this thread. I was brought up agnostic, converted to Wicca as a young adult, later "deconverted" to atheism.

[skeptiform5]

I really never started being a Christian. I was a little kid at age 8 in a Catholic primary school when I started to become a strong Christian and that was when I lost my faith. The more of the bible I read the less I believed. My mother always said that god was forgiving and would always talk about how Jesus was a part of God not his son which completely contradicted the bible. Oh and praying would never work.

[Paulhoff]

It was uphill from about seven, of losing of my little faith, and for me it was because of the following:

In one word “Dinosaurs”. I like most kids fell in love with dinosaurs, they’re big, really big, what is not to love about that when one is a kid. Now they are gone, and when I was a kid 50 plus years ago, they didn’t have any good theories on why. Having mammals eating their eggs was a big one, but that made no real sense and the list goes on. Well anyway, the people writing these books never ever brought up anything about a god, it was all science, about the bones (fossils) that they found, and they weren’t trying to prove and/or disprove any god or gods. Now all I never got from the religious people in my life was, “They can’t prove that the bones where really dinosaurs or anything else, and the earth, was not as old as those scientists say”. “Oh Really” I thought, why the hell would they (the scientist) lie about it in the first place, they only showed what they found and how they found it, and it never made any sense about them lying or needing to lie. So that was the beginning of the first doubt about their idea of a so-called god.

The second love came along, “SPACE”, and my first telescope. Now the size of the universe came into play, the vastness of it. Why, why this so-called god need all of that just for us, why all that wasted space, planets, stars, galaxies, again it made no sense. Also once again the great age of the universe came into play with the less great age of the earth, so again, why was that great age needed by this deity. Well, in no time their deity was losing out to me, from about seven it was a fast downward spiral in any little belief that I may have had.

Evolution, say it loudly, they just hate that word. “I didn’t come from a monkey” they like to say. Well who said you did, ape’s ancestors man, it was from the ape’s ancestors that we came, and not from the today’s apes and certainly not monkeys. Also, have you ever watch monkeys, I have, overseas in Thailand where I was stationed in the Air Force, we had a couple. After watching and playing with them and also watching the humans that I was with, there really is not that much difference, monkeys throw their trash around and so do we, and this is just one example. Evolution just answers so many questions, why is the body full of design flaws, all the disease we have etc. Also the nature of ourselves makes much more sense.

I really lost it with the Jesus story right from the beginning, I never bought into it. I just could never get my mind around that one and not because I was stupid, the whole premise was dumb. You know the one with the son and father, the father (god) giving his one and only son (himself) to us. Now my idea of the word “GIVE” is not to take back. Now I know the U.S. government did that with the Indians and land, but here we are talking about a so-called god, it should be above all that, so where is Jesus now, with him, he got him back, where is the GIVE part. The dying for our sins, oh please, is this the best a deity can come up with, and he did it only once, now if he died again and again for every man, woman and child, we would have something there, once doesn’t cut it. Also, how many people have died as bad or a worse death then Jesus was supposed had gone thru, I’m sure the number is pretty big and what credit do they get, none. And dying for our sin, where do people get off with believing that an infant is born with sin, that idea is just so silly. Because the infant wants it is sinning. It wants food, that was one story I was feed. So it should starve and die, again no sense to another line of thinking.

Well I was going to make this short, didn’t work that way, but as I said, about from the age of seven, it was a uphill losing of my little faith.

Paul

:) :) :)

And may evolution be with you :D

[readme.txt]

Raised a Catholic, I stopped believing in a higher power at 15, but I still believed in soul and life after death at that time. In fact, I believed in reincarnation until I was 18, in a philosophy class. We discussed Marx's materialism . When the semester was over, I was fully atheist, non-believer of the afterlife and non-believer of soul. That day, I became a rational being.

[John Jones]

There was this pony I prayed real hard for...

[Paulhoff]

There was this pony I prayed real hard for...
I could never understand wanting a pony, I had two dogs, they s... you know, and pony even more. :D

Paul

:) :) :)

[arthwollipot]

There was this pony I prayed real hard for...When I was a kid, I prayed every day for God to give me a new bike. Then I realised that he doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked him to forgive me.

[slingblade]

Cainkane1's wording is interesting-


Note the (implied) presumption that there was an initial belief, which lapsed, under some influence. This from someone who is himself an atheist.

It does happen that way for some of us. Some of us are brought up virtually from birth in a religious belief system.

For believers- and it seems , some atheists, this is the default presumption.

Yeah, some people do that. They tend to think that their norm is the given norm. This isn't correct, but it's understandable. For instance, when I was young, I knew not one, single atheist. Everyone I knew professed Christianity.

Yet it seems clear that many people never believe-

It seems clear to me now. When I was a kid, I'd have thought you were a nasty liar.

and that none do so spontaneously unless convinced by other, usually older people. Nobody dreams it up by himself.
This seems to support Dawkins' point that "No child is born Christian / Muslim / Jew/ etc". He must be indoctrinated.

Yes, one can be indoctrinated as a child. Or one can be older. It's not unheard-of.

The question would be more accurate, it seems reworded as "What influenced you to abandon your initial atheism?"


That's the antithesis of Cainkane1's question. He doesn't want to know what made you take on faith. He wants to know how you shed it. That some never had any to shed just means he isn't asking them.

[Paulhoff]

A little girl asked her mother one day, "Mommy, where did I come from".

Mommy thought long and hard, and she thought she may say the truth, "Daddy and I f...... our brains out in bed, on the kitchen table, on the couch, back seat of the car and I loved it on the washing machine when it was running on spin" but she thought better of it and said "God gave you to us" and the slippery slope began.

Thought you should know.

Paul

:) :) :)

[sgtbaker]

I was baptised Roman Catholic but my first holy communion made me question the legitimacy of Catholicism. I didn't have the shade of a confession booth to shield me from the humiliation of confessing my dirty deeds to my priest. I sat in a chair and stared my priest in the face. I thought it weird that redemtion was a matter of saying so many hail Mary's and I was forgiven. I wondered how many times I could commit the same sin and regurgitate prayer for forgiveness. I called myself a Catholic because I had no other explanation for life (my interest in science came many years too late). It wasn't until high school that I first heard the term agnostic. It fit so that was my title. After the miraculous experience of giving birth to my first child, I immediately reverted back to Catholicism. What if I am wrong and condemning my kids to hell? I even started reading the bible. The more I read, the more confusion and questions I had with Christianity on the whole. I kid you not, the trigger for my final conversion was the book Angels and Demons by by Dan Brown. It wasn't anything in the book but this whole 'dark matter' stuff intrigued me. I began looking it up on the internet which brought me to learning and reading a lot of books about Astronomy and Cosmology. The more natural explanations I got, the less I needed God as an explanation. It just sort of fell away from there.

[readme.txt]

the trigger for my final conversion was the book Angels and Demons by by Dan Brown. It wasn't anything in the book but this whole 'dark matter' stuff intrigued me. I began looking it up on the internet which brought me to learning and reading a lot of books about Astronomy and Cosmology. The more natural explanations I got, the less I needed God as an explanation. It just sort of fell away from there.

Your story is interesting. Especially this part.

[Abdul Alhazred]

About "proving" there is no God: As an atheist I'm powerless against the Spinoza trick. Define it vaguely enough and I'm a believer.

So why do I say I'm an atheist not an agnostic? Because I can do a real good job of disproving the Gods people around me actually believe in.

[readme.txt]

Atheism is a belief. A belief there is no God. The fact that you cannot prove its non-existence doesn't make you agnostic or whatever. Same for believers who cannot prove its existence and it doesn't make them agnostic either.

Did I really understand you?

[Paulhoff]

About "proving" there is no God: As an atheist I'm powerless against the Spinoza trick. Define it vaguely enough and I'm a believer.
With proving anything, you first must have a THING. The first rule I found to be true, thinking something is, doesn't make it something.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Paulhoff]

Atheism is a belief. A belief there is no God.
Belief, can you show me a church, a temple, a bible of atheism. I guess I'm a atheist of pink-elephants too.

Paul

:) :) :)

[readme.txt]

Belief, can you show me a church, a temple, a bible of atheism. I guess I'm a atheist of pink-elephants too.


You might find there's a difference between a religion and a belief.

Or maybe we don't have the same definition of "belief".

[slingblade]

Oh, fine, everyone's so scared of it.

Yes, what I believe is a belief, because there's no real way to absolutely, categorically, objectively, finally prove that some thing we imagined thousands of years ago exists or doesn't.

But my belief is not a belief system, as there's no methodology, ideology, or dogma to it.

There's no brownie points to score getting me to admit I have a belief. I have a lot of beliefs, frankly. Well, maybe not so many as I once had, but still, some.

So what?

[readme.txt]

Oh, fine, everyone's so scared of it.

Yes, what I believe is a belief, because there's no real way to absolutely, categorically, objectively, finally prove that some thing we imagined thousands of years ago exists or doesn't.

But my belief is not a belief system, as there's no methodology, ideology, or dogma to it.

There's no brownie points to score getting me to admit I have a belief. I have a lot of beliefs, frankly. Well, maybe not so many as I once had, but still, some.

So what?

This post is utterly my point.

[Paulhoff]

You might find there's a difference between a religion and a belief.

Or maybe we don't have the same definition of "belief".
There is a big difference, one is dogmatic, the Christian bible for one doesn't change no matter what the evidence shows. Belief can change with evidence, science books are updated all the time.

Paul

:) :) :)

[readme.txt]

Belief can change with evidence, science books are updated all the time.


Reason why I said atheism is a belief. Belief can change, but is still a belief.

[Abdul Alhazred]

About proving the non-existence of specific Gods people really believe in.

Let's start with the most popular (at least in my neighborhood), covering several popular religions. The flavor of creator of the universe who ~3000 years ago asked a particular exile from Ur to sacrifice his son to prove his devotion.

Is it really so hard to disprove such an assertion? Does it really tie a person up into philosophical knots to reject the various versions and pious interpretations of that story?

[Sceptical Punter]

My mother tells the story that I said "I don't believe that God exists because he is meant to live up there in heaven but the sky and stars and moon and stuff is up there so he can't live there" when I was about 6. I had a brief dalliance with Christianity when I was about 15 and wandered around with a happy clappy smile on my face for a couple of months. Actually I think I was after some hot chick who believed...but she wasn't interested so I went back to my sceptical ways...

[Paulhoff]

Reason why I said atheism is a belief. Belief can change, but is still a belief.
So, OK, let's try this idea, one word is not doing it.

Religious Belief, Scientific Belief, big difference.

Paul

:) :) :)

[readme.txt]

So, OK, let's try this idea, one word is not doing it.

Religious Belief, Scientific Belief, big difference.



If you see it that way, then I agree.

[Abdul Alhazred]

If you see it that way, then I agree.

Is there an assumption that all "beliefs" are equal?

[readme.txt]

Is there an assumption that all "beliefs" are equal?

In order to ask that, you have to find a way to "measure" beliefs.

[sgtbaker]

When you look at the definition, believe can be attributed to both. One can believe that the doctrine of their faith is accurate and one can believe that a specific theory (or set of theories) is correct. One can believe in the practice of science, as in using a set of standards to support a theory but science, in itself, is not a matter of belief it's a matter of practice the same way god is the belief and [insert specific religion] is the practice. Similarly, you can believe that something doesn't exist (which tends to go hand in hand with believing in a set of theories) but you can't believe in an absense of something. Atheism, in itself, is the lack of belief.

[readme.txt]

When you look at the definition, believe can be attributed to both. One can believe that the doctrine of their faith is accurate and one can believe that a specific theory (or set of theories) is correct. One can believe in the practice of science, as in using a set of standards to support a theory but science, in itself, is not a matter of belief it's a matter of practice the same way god is the belief and is the practice. Similarly, you can believe that something doesn't exist (which tends to go hand in hand with believing in a set of theories) but you can't believe in an absense of something. Atheism, in itself, is the lack of belief.

Good point, but it's all about definition.

Wiktionary :

[I]The term atheism may refer either to an explicit belief that God or gods do not exist, or to the mere lack of an explicit belief that God or gods do exist.

[Paulhoff]

Christians are athiest too, they don't believe in other so-called gods.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Abdul Alhazred]

In order to ask that, you have to find a way to "measure" beliefs.

You mean like testing them against actual evidence?

[readme.txt]

Christians are athiest too, they don't believe in other so-called gods.

Atheism is not the belief a specific god does not exist. Atheist is the belief there is no god, at all.

Rephrase it to "lack of belief in any god" if you want, but it is technically a belief.

[readme.txt]

You mean like testing them against actual evidence?

Haha. They will never accept any evidence.

[sgtbaker]

Good point, but it's all about definition.

Wiktionary :

Quote:
The term atheism may refer either to an explicit belief that God or gods do not exist, or to the mere lack of an explicit belief that God or gods do exist.

True but if it's all about the definition you omitted the actual definition and only included the usage. The etymology of the word has great significance to this discussion as well as the first definition.

EtymologyFrench athéisme, from athée (“‘atheist’”), from Ancient Greek ἄθεος (atheós), “‘godless’”) < from ἀ- (a-), “‘without’”) + θεός (theos), “‘deity, god’”

my bold

atheism (plural atheisms)

1.Absence of, or rejection of, belief in the existence of a god or gods.
2.The stance that a deity or deities do not exist.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atheism

[readme.txt]

True but if it's all about the definition you omitted the actual definition and only included the usage. The etymology of the word has great significance to this discussion as well as the first definition.


a = without
theist = god

no "belief" is mentioned is the etymology.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atheism
Lack of belief refers to the first definition and belief there is no god refers to the second. So both definitions work.

[MetalPig]

Rephrase it to "lack of belief in any god" if you want, but it is technically a belief.
Just like my lack of stamp collections is technically a stamp collection.

[Paulhoff]

Atheism is not the belief a specific god does not exist. Atheist is the belief there is no god, at all.

Rephrase it to "lack of belief in any god" if you want, but it is technically a belief.
A Christian is still an atheist about any other gods.

Now when I say there is no so-called god it is because I see nothing about a Christians one that has anything that I would call a god, and I see nothing that has a need for a so-called god to begin with.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Olowkow]

I never really believed any god stuff, but I liked the pipe organ music, and all the stained glass windows. Going to church was something I did solely to please my parents, and look for girls. I went all over France checking out all the cool old churches and castles, but kept running into the "Eat me" (communion) thing with religion that bugged the hell out of me. Symbolic cannibalism is not my thing. As I remember, I just quit hanging out with anyone who was very church oriented or wanted to talk about religion right around college days as I found them very delusional and boring, and was a lot closer to friends who just wanted to talk science, and, as it turned out, I discovered to also be unbelievers.

No big rift, no hating god or anyone else, just common sense to me that there is no need for that hypothesis. I am thankful that I was not hounded by my folks, though my father was a minister.

[readme.txt]

A Christian is still an atheist about any other gods.


No god at all, not "no god except mine".


Now when I say there is no so-called god it is because I see nothing about a Christians one that has anything that I would call a god, and I see nothing that has a need for a so-called god to begin with.


I know

[readme.txt]

Just like my lack of stamp collections is technically a stamp collection.

As I said before, there are two ways to this. Your example works for one of the ways. But you could also say : 'when' do I lack stamp collections? When my collection contains no stamp.

Yet, it's debatable, I know. I understand what you guys are trying to tell me and I understand your point (and I'm not saying you're are wrong), but it's all a matter of using definitions, a matter of "playing" with words and a matter of interpretation.

[sgtbaker]

As I said before, there are two ways to this. Your example works for one of the ways. But you could also say : 'when' do I lack stamp collections? When my collection contains no stamp.

Yet, it's debatable, I know. I understand what you guys are trying to tell me and I understand your point (and I'm not saying you're are wrong), but it's all a matter of using definitions, a matter of "playing" with words and a matter of interpretation.

collection (plural collections)

1.A set of items or objects procured or gathered together by a person, group, or other agent.
The attic contains a remarkable collection of antiques, oddities, and random junk.
The asteroid belt consists of a collection of dust, rubble, and minor planets.
2.Multiple related objects associated as a group.
He has a superb coin collection.
3.The activity of collecting.
Collection of trash will occur every Thursday.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/collection

When a collection lacks the named product of the collection, it is not a collection.
"Hey you want to see my dagger collection?"
"Sure where is it?'
"well I don't actually have any daggers yet."
"Then you don't have a daggar collection."

To repeat the central point (because it needs to be repeated so often): atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of gods. Atheists might assert that some or all gods do not or cannot exist, but that isn’t a prerequisite for atheism and it shouldn’t be assumed that any particular atheist does so. If you want to know if someone goes so far as to deny this, that, or any gods, then you will simply have to ask.
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/whatisatheism.htm

I pulled the snip above from a link found on this page
http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/p/overview.htm

It has some pretty indepth discussions on atheism and I don't want to go too link crazy but under the link for Modern Atheists On Atheism, a lot of the confusion between belief and lack of belief is discussed and I think, clarified better than I can say it.

[readme.txt]

When a collection lacks the named product of the collection, it is not a collection.
"Hey you want to see my dagger collection?"
"Sure where is it?'
"well I don't actually have any daggers yet."
"Then you don't have a daggar collection."

In maths, a set of elements is still a set when there's no element in it. It's called "the empty set". What's the point of having a set with no element at all? Ask set theorists and algebra experts. It's easier to use use a set with nothing contained in it instead of simply nothing.



I pulled the snip above from a link found on this page
http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/p/overview.htm

It has some pretty indepth discussions on atheism and I don't want to go too link crazy but under the link for Modern Atheists On Atheism, a lot of the confusion between belief and lack of belief is discussed and I think, clarified better than I can say it.

I think I get it. I think I somewhat understand how I am wrong. Thank you for this link. You've convinced me.

[CORed]

I was discussing atheism with a fellow atheist and apparently we came to our non theist conclusions in different ways. I personally came to the conclusion at age under ten after it became apparent that prayers didn't work. I became a full fledged atheist at age 12.

The person I was having this discussion with came to the same conclusion many years later in life than I had. Discussions with his college professors brought him to the non theist conclusion at age 21.

When and how did you my fellow atheists come to the conclusion that God was imaginary?

As a child, I went to Sunday school and church (United Presbyterian) fwiw. Neither of my parents were fanatics by any means, but I think they took me there because they though it was the right thing to do. Looking back, I don't think I ever completely bought it, but it was somewhere late in my high school years, that I decided to quit pretending I believed in God or Jesus. I would identify myself as agnostic now, though some would classify me as atheist. I can't rule out the possibility that God exists, but I don't think it's provable or falsifiable.

[benchmaster]

There's also this one

"God works in mysterious ways!" LOL

[readme.txt]

If I were God, I would know a lot of people don't believe in me, so I would just write a clear message in the sky (repeatedly all around the Earth, so everyone can read it) : "I am <religion here> God and I exist, now stop denying me".

Simpler than that, if I were God, it would mean I am omnipotent, so I would simply "force-convert" every human being to my religion.

[sgtbaker]

If I were God, I would know a lot of people don't believe in me, so I would just write a clear message in the sky (repeatedly all around the Earth, so everyone can read it) : "I am <religion here> God and I exist, now stop denying me".

Simpler than that, if I were God, it would mean I am omnipotent, so I would simply "force-convert" every human being to my religion.

I had major issues with that, on a philosophical level, when I was reading the bible. We are made with independent thought, told not to question, then punished when we suffer doubt. It a conversation I had with a believer he suggested that perhaps god did send me a sign, maybe I just didn't get it. I said, "why would a god who made me and knows how I see things, intentionally send me a sign that I wouldn't get? That's cruel!"

[Paulhoff]

If I were God, I would know a lot of people don't believe in me, so I would just write a clear message in the sky (repeatedly all around the Earth, so everyone can read it) : "I am <religion here> God and I exist, now stop denying me".

Simpler than that, if I were God, it would mean I am omnipotent, so I would simply "force-convert" every human being to my religion.
Gee, if you where a real so-called god, you would know what to do to make each person believe it, there would be no doubt it their mind.

Paul

:) :) :)

[readme.txt]

Gee, if you where a real so-called god, you would know what to do to make each person believe it, there would be no doubt it their mind.


Any sarcasm? I'd remove their ability to doubt. THAT'S HOW EVIL I AM.

[Abdul Alhazred]

readme: All this pesupposes that God would care whether people believed in Him.

This is not axiomatic even among the very religious. For example, Orthodox Jews do not think God automatically condemns all non-Jews.

[readme.txt]

readme: All this pesupposes that God would care whether people believed in Him.

This is not axiomatic even among the very religious. For example, Orthodox Jews do not think God automatically condemns all non-Jews.

Hum okay?

[Abdul Alhazred]

What exactly is your position? It's not clear at all.

[readme.txt]

It was a joke. I don't believe in any god. I'm just saying that if I were a so-called god, I would try to make things easier so people wouldn't doubt my existence. Which is not the case in the current world.

[tsig]

It was a joke. I don't believe in any god. I'm just saying that if I were a so-called god, I would try to make things easier so people wouldn't doubt my existence. Which is not the case in the current world.

I wouldn't have bothered with humans to begin with, too servile, now cats....

[readme.txt]

I wouldn't have bothered with humans to begin with, too servile, now cats....

Cats are futile, cats are silent, cats are well trained night hunters (assassins). Cats are the new weapons of mice destruction.

[Iamme]

The atheists here at least don't cease from believing that a God might be possible. Otherwise they would not even bother with posting on religion forums. I notice an awful lot of professed atheists debate religion. Why is that? Why bother with something you know 100% just cannot possibly be?

You KNOW in your heart that all this just did not happen. That the universe just popped into existance and then created out of itself, by itself, a creature that could look up, ponder and visit the universe from whence it came. You KNOW that is why you are here in these forums.

Sure, you can mock the Bible. The strange stories and all. The "Old Law" and "New Law" thing. And all that. But there is still this 'what if' thing clinging to your heart. Even such 'nonsense' as "The Bible Code" - you wonder how mathematics of the universe came to be, so that equations can explain things, and even create mathematical progressions in some book that can show the future may have been known in the past - just like what is claimed of God. Or how in the Book of Daniel, he said that knowledge will be locked up until the end times. And how coincidently? some think the answers of the universe have been made known to past civilizations, recorded, and have been buried by others, like under the Sphinx or Pyramids, only to be discovered at the times of the end - fulfilling Daniel's prophecy. (I have wondered if the secrets about gravity are one of those things on record! And what might be inside the Arc of the Covenant? They still think that is out there somewhere also, ready to be found)

Sure. Argue. But you know there is that 'what if?' factor that you can't quite get out of your mind. And God probably put that trait in all of us. Because we are all a part of God. God made the whole, of which everything else is the sum of it's parts.

But does it really matter in the end, for each of us, if say Bible stories and promises are not true? That we are nothing more than being a small something, of something way greater than us, that some of us call God?

I guess we all just have to ponder that one.

There are people that go atheist, after being raised in religion, thinking this is no different than Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny - only to desperately hope and reconvert on their deathbed.

Then you may wonder about NDE's. But nah. Those can be explained because the people really weren't dead. And you know miracles aren't real either, because people do not grow their bald head back with hair, nor regrow old fallen out teeth, nor regrow limbs that got severed.

Yes. This whole God thing sure seems preposterous alright. There is a logical answer that can explain it. Yes. The universe just happened and may have always been in various forms, and there never was truly nothing, and things just happened because motion always existed, with trillions of actions per second. And the reason we have love, goodness, health, beauty, feelings, etc., is because it was all bound to happen since the universe is so complete, due to the fact there is an opposite to everything and even a happy medium to everything. So we have hot/cold, love/hate, hard/soft, sad/happy, big/small, black/white, clear/opaque, pretty/ugly, smells good/stinks. It is endless. It is all like that. So it was all bound to happen, right?..and appear to be perfect? since every combination is possbile and abounds?

And now that I just talked myself out of believing in God, I think while laying in bed tonight, I will try to think if I'm possibly mistaken...maybe glazing over certain things that really should not be so readily glazed over.

Everytime I watch those animal shows that show what all these various creatures of the land, sky and waters can do, it truly amazes me that simply for survival of the fittest, that all this just happened.... with all their colors, geometric patterns, their navigation instincts, their specialties that each has...the JOBS they seem to have been given (like oysters to clean the water, or worms to help the ground, or how some bacteria is good) their unusual and powerful defense mechanisms that so greatly vary, their means of propulsion....that all this just happened? Considering how the universe seems either void or on fire...and then there is all this, in harmony on this planet(like a greenhouse) that has been given a couple shields to seemingly guard it's garden. And how the earth itself is like a living machine that can protect and even cleanse itself.... and whose water system can course like the blood in our veins, and how buried objects can surface on their own, like how slivers get regected by our body. And how ice forms and happens to protect.

Or the thought of how man COULD survive just fine, if say food did not taste absolutely delicious to us, nor if grabbing parts of the opposite sex gave us pleasure, nor if we had jets to take us to tropical paradises, etc., etc., etc. That we and things still would be able to SURVIVE just fine, without things being comfortable or pleasurable.

And to think that all of these things work in some sort of harmony in this world. Yet we so easily dismiss it by saying that it all happened becasue if it didn't happen it woudn't be here.

So. Before you fall asleep tonight, being certain there is no God......................

[AdMan]

Ummm... yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Going back to the original question:

I was raised as a Catholic, though my father was agnostic. I remember being fairly religious until I was in my early teens, but now I realize that more than anything it was because I was just accepting what people were telling me without questioning what I was being taught. Once I started thinking for myself and asking whether any of it made sense, I stopped going to church and drifted away from religion. By the time I got to college, I considered myself an atheist, and the more I read and thought about it the more I felt religion wasn't only untrue, but religious belief was usually unhelpful and even harmful. Not only was the concept of an omniscient, all-good and merciful God illogical, but there was no need for the idea of God in our universe.

Thought that way ever since. :)

[Angus McPresley]

Myself: Born and raised Roman Catholic. Around age 18 I (independently) came up with the concept of what philosophers call "determinism" and came to the conclusion that it had to be true.

This was shattering to me, as it destroyed my conception of free will, and made the God I believed in into just a weeder in a garden, sending people to hell for things they were predestined to do anyway.

I spent three days in a deep funk, not only in mourning for my loss of faith but for also because my life suddenly was just like a film where I didn't know how the rest played out, but which was still already scripted.

I eventually came out of it when I decided it didn't really matter. Later I learned about quantum randomness which would seem to contradict determinism, but by then the toothpaste was already out of the tube.

Of course, now it's come full circle as I am back to subscribing to determinism, albeit the many-worlds variety!

[Paulhoff]

You KNOW in your heart that all this just did not happen. That the universe just popped into existance and then created out of itself, by itself, a creature that could look up, ponder and visit the universe from whence it came. You KNOW that is why you are here in these forums.
Of course we are on a religion thread. We should let posts with no proof not be answered, you must be kidding.

So, a so-called god just popped into existance and created itself, seems like a step that isn't needed and still doesn't tell us anything.

Besides, which so-called god are you talking about.


Paul

:) :) :)

[Paulhoff]

Here you go Iamme

2Clm6nlWxzc

Paul

:) :) :)

[AdMan]

CNN: Liberalism, atheism linked to higher IQs (http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/liberals.atheists.sex.intelligence/index.html)

;)

ETA: Posting link just because I noticed the article right after I posted in this thread. I thought it was a funny coincidence. :)

[yy2bggggs]

The atheists here at least don't cease from believing that a God might be possible. Otherwise they would not even bother with posting on religion forums. I notice an awful lot of professed atheists debate religion. Why is that?
So in addition to this being a desperately reaching diatribe of off topic self flattery, your opening statement is that it's not even applicable to this audience?

Might I suggest starting a new thread if you want to pick this bone?

[Foster Zygote]

The atheists here at least don't cease from believing that a God might be possible. Otherwise they would not even bother with posting on religion forums.
I am an atheist and I admit that gods are a possibility. But they are an extremely unlikely possibility. I don't pretend to certainty that they don't exist, I simply observe that, like leprechauns and unicorns, there is no evidence that they do.

I notice an awful lot of professed atheists debate religion. Why is that? Why bother with something you know 100% just cannot possibly be?
At one end of the spectrum, curiosity. I am interested in the variety of human experience.

At the other end of the spectrum is the fact that there are people who would like to control others, even kill them, based on beliefs that they cannot demonstrate the truth of. If someone wanted to tell you how to live, or kill you, based on their fantasies, would you ignore them?

You KNOW in your heart that all this just did not happen. That the universe just popped into existance and then created out of itself, by itself, a creature that could look up, ponder and visit the universe from whence it came. You KNOW that is why you are here in these forums.
I KNOW no such thing. It seems likely that the universe is boundless and yet finite. The question "where did the universe come from?" may be as meaningless as "what is north of the North pole?"

Sure, you can mock the Bible. The strange stories and all. The "Old Law" and "New Law" thing. And all that. But there is still this 'what if' thing clinging to your heart. Even such 'nonsense' as "The Bible Code" - you wonder how mathematics of the universe came to be, so that equations can explain things, and even create mathematical progressions in some book that can show the future may have been known in the past - just like what is claimed of God. Or how in the Book of Daniel, he said that knowledge will be locked up until the end times. And how coincidently? some think the answers of the universe have been made known to past civilizations, recorded, and have been buried by others, like under the Sphinx or Pyramids, only to be discovered at the times of the end - fulfilling Daniel's prophecy. (I have wondered if the secrets about gravity are one of those things on record! And what might be inside the Arc of the Covenant? They still think that is out there somewhere also, ready to be found)
This is a lot of fantastic speculation. And what of the contradictions and errors present in the Bible? What of the many other religious texts?

Sure. Argue. But you know there is that 'what if?' factor that you can't quite get out of your mind. And God probably put that trait in all of us. Because we are all a part of God. God made the whole, of which everything else is the sum of it's parts.
That "what if?" factor extends to everything. What if I am merely dreaming the universe? What if a pantheon of gods lives on Olympus? What if we are all the result of alien breeding experiments? Just because you can say "what if?" doesn't mean that thing is likely to be real.

But does it really matter in the end, for each of us, if say Bible stories and promises are not true? That we are nothing more than being a small something, of something way greater than us, that some of us call God?

I guess we all just have to ponder that one.
I have pondered it. I am still an atheist.

There are people that go atheist, after being raised in religion, thinking this is no different than Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny - only to desperately hope and reconvert on their deathbed.
I'm sure that some have. But I'm just as sure that there have been theists who reached a deathbed conclusion that their religion was all just fantasy. So what?

Then you may wonder about NDE's. But nah. Those can be explained because the people really weren't dead. And you know miracles aren't real either, because people do not grow their bald head back with hair, nor regrow old fallen out teeth, nor regrow limbs that got severed.
You're right, those people weren't dead. And there are well understood reasons why people report such experiences. And you are correct, people don't regrow severed limbs.

Yes. This whole God thing sure seems preposterous alright. There is a logical answer that can explain it. Yes. The universe just happened and may have always been in various forms, and there never was truly nothing, and things just happened because motion always existed, with trillions of actions per second. And the reason we have love, goodness, health, beauty, feelings, etc., is because it was all bound to happen since the universe is so complete, due to the fact there is an opposite to everything and even a happy medium to everything. So we have hot/cold, love/hate, hard/soft, sad/happy, big/small, black/white, clear/opaque, pretty/ugly, smells good/stinks. It is endless. It is all like that. So it was all bound to happen, right?..and appear to be perfect? since every combination is possbile and abounds?
You start off all right, but then you go terribly wrong. Instead of strawman arguments that don't really represent the position of those you are debating, maybe you could pay attention to what they actually say.

So. Before you fall asleep tonight, being certain there is no God......................
I'm sorry, but the arguments you presented are so scientifically ignorant and poorly constructed that I don't have time to address them all. You haven't made a case.