Atheism = Unyielding Despair

[withallyourmind]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/

[BobTheDonkey]

Actually, I think you'll find most atheists are pretty optimistic about the world around them.

No hell or afterlife or screwy/sketchy rewards/punishments system to worry about. Most of us just live our lives, one day at a time, thankful for the experience and the beauty around us.

I know when I die, that's it. So why bother wasting my time alive worrying about anything other than making it the best experience I can? ;)

[Apathia]

Perhaps the pastor has a poor sample size.
Was it Dunkin Donuts where he took his poll?

I'm not suffering any "unyielding dispair" for not being a devotee of Jesus.

It's good you've started this thread here.
You'll find a multitude of people who love life independent of religious beliefs.

[Eyeron]

It's getting to the point where I'd like to call a moratorium on atheism threads started by theists. They'll never understand under any circumstances no matter how it's explained to them that atheist is just a lack of belief that a deity exists. That's it. Atheists are not mean spirited people. They are not Satan worshiper who sacrifice your children in a cannibalistic orgy. I wish theists would learn to just leave people alone and let them live their own lives.

[BobTheDonkey]

\Atheists are not mean spirited people. They are not Satan worshiper who sacrifice your children in a cannibalistic orgy.

Wait, you mean I don't have to be like/do that? SONOFABITCH. Someone lied to me!

[joobz]

Whenever I hear of someone dispairing their existence and the general fear for the future, it's the following phrases that are uttered:
"We're in the last days!"
"Satan is taking hold in this world"
"we are all evil and god will punish us"
"Haiti deserved what they got because god punished them...."
"this world will only get worse before jesus comes back...."

Indeed, if you want a group of people who are in unyielding despair, go to any Christian book store where there's the "left behind" series.

I hold no belief in some grand apocalyptic tale that must play out. As such, while I know of the problems we face, I optimistically believe in the nobility of the human spirit. I hold hope for the future, that we will progress and create a civilization worthy of that noble spirit.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

It's getting to the point where I'd like to call a moratorium on atheism threads started by theists.

The reviewer in Hebrews 13:8 got it about right:

" Jesus Christ — the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

[JFrankA]

I watched the first 57 seconds of the video, and this guy assumed that atheism is a "horrific way to live your life" simply because there is no "babysitter" to tell us what to do.

I'm sorry, but if someone needs another being, and a "superior super-being" at that, to guide, comfort and protect her or him, then it seems to me that that person is in dispair and is living a horrific life.

[Pure Argent]

Wait, my life is unyielding despair? Funny. I don't recall feeling in need of Prozac...

[Fnord]

It's getting to the point where I'd like to call a moratorium on atheism threads started by theists. They'll never understand under any circumstances no matter how it's explained to them that atheist is just a lack of belief that a deity exists. That's it. Atheists are not mean spirited people. They are not Satan worshiper who sacrifice your children in a cannibalistic orgy. I wish theists would learn to just leave people alone and let them live their own lives.

Agreed on all counts. I wish my fellow Theists would start practicing some of that 'Living Faith' that Jesus taught ... "Love thy neighbor" ... "Judge not lest ye be judged in kind" ... and simply showing towards all people everywhere love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

But that's too much to ask from a stiff-necked, stubborn and prideful people such as those who worship their religion instead of God.

Atheists are some of the nicest, most honest people I know. Christians could learn a lot from them.

[PixyMisa]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?
No.

[Maia]

I watched the entire video clip (which I really recommend-- it's only 7:31)... and wow... it's hard to know where to begin. It's a very slick presentation. Very different from the old-style evangelical stuff. To begin with, Mark Driscoll has that metrosexual look going on, very well-spoken and personable; he quotes both Bertrand Russell (caught on a depressed day, apparently), and Richard Dawkins, just to prove how hip he really is. Short Rant Break: This is a big reason why Dawkins annoys me so much. I really do think that he gives ammunition to people like this by prancing around making snarky statements such as the one quoted: "No, this (atheistic philosophy) doesn't make me depressed, but if it has that effect on anyone else, then it's their problem," and so on and on.

The worst part was probably the lovely comments about how depression can be COMPLETELY blamed on atheism, and how taking antidepressants is a SIN. :eye-poppi Anyway, I would really have liked to have heard details about how "theism" is a hideously unacceptable alternative to "Christianity" (as outlined on the chart behind Mark's head), but that must be in the part of the sermon that wasn't in the clip.

[Hokulele]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?


No. Atheism is equal to puppies and kitties and good beer and rainbows.


(Hey, ask a silly question...)

[Dancing David]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/

No.

[joobz]

No. Atheism is equal to puppies and kitties and good beer and rainbows.


(Hey, ask a silly question...)

Obviously you do not know the Douchebag Theory of religious relativity:

Sum(religions != your pet religion) = k*sum(bad stuff)^(DB)

where
k = an arbitrary constant equal to the strength of your convictions
DB = douchebag coefficient, which is proportional to the degree of one's douchebaggieness.

[bluesjnr]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?


This is very good question but is very difficult to answer due to a number of unknown variants. I can tell you that Atheism does not equal Unyielding Despair. It may equal 60 but then that would depend on where you had placed your tiles. Please see the list below:

* - Ordinary position (= 60 *INC 50 point bonus for all 7 letters)
* 2 Double letter score (= 61* or 64* depending where your H is placed)
* 3 Triple letter score (= 62* or 68* - see above)
* 4 Double word score (= 70*)
* 5 Triple word score (= 80*)

Unyielding Despair (sic) is two words and is not allowed and impossible in any case as you can only draw a maximum of 7 tiles at a time. You could, of course, try to link through another word but that would be extremely difficult if not impossible and still not allowed. So you see, Atheism is by far easier. Therein lies the subtext.

I hope that this has cleared this matter up for you and if you find that you have further issues with what words equal then please read the good word here. (http://online-judge.uva.es/p/v6/655.html).

ETA: Bear in mind if you use a blank tile or tiles the above scores will vary - sorry!

[Tiktaalik]

If this is Unyielding Despair it's pretty damn good. Sounds like a good name for a beer, or a band, but a silly philosophy.

[babbits]

I can remember as a kid, we had a bad earthquake scare. (Believe it or not, it was in the southern part of Quebec, Canada! Not exactly earthquake country!)

It was evening. Suddenly the house began to shake. I remember a relative, a woman, falling to her knees, her face an absolute mask of terror, as she desperately stammered, "Oh my god I am heartily sorry for having offended thee... for having offended thee ... Katie, Katie, what comes next? What comes next?"

(Katie was my sister.)

Even though I was only nine years old, I had to laugh, so I ran and hid so no one would see me -- and give me heck, for laughing at her!

Now that I'm older, I understand better what must have been going on in her head. She was afraid that if she didn't get the words right, she would die unconfessed, and burn in hell for all eternity.

Pathetic. Sad and pathetic.

It was about a year or two later than I lost my 'faith' in prayer. I just realized, one day as I recited a prayer, that I was talking to myself. I never prayed again.

I have known English people who had to go into the underground air raid shelters during World War II who said that when the bombs would drop and the ground would shake, some people would cry out loud to their god to make it stop, to help them, to forgive them, etc. . Men and women alike. (Most people just huddled and were quiet, I was told.)

They didn't mind dying so much as going to hell! And I don't blame them! If I still believed in that crap, I'd be scared, too!

But those who wish to control us love to fill our minds with superstitious terrors. They can get a family to disown a child, a community to isolate one of its members, a people to turn on a whole segment of their community (e.g. the good Roman Catholics and Lutherans who turned on their fellow citizens, the Jews, and gave them to the murderers. For fear of their 'loving' god.)

See, I fear dying -- at least as long as my quality of life remains good. But I don't have my mind all messed up with superstitious terrors about being tortured by fiends in some imaginary after-life.

I'm glad about that.

Right now we live in a world where god-fearing people send their sons and daughters to die in a foreign land for the love of their god -- and the "enemy's" oil. And the "enemy" (fearing another god) send their sons and daughters to a fiery death -- bomb-assisted suicide -- to please THEIR god; and to protect the oil that they believe is rightfully theirs. Neither side seems to realize that the ones in power in their respective nations are the ones who benefit from the oil. They'll send the young to die, but they keep the 'goodies' for themselves.

I'm glad I'm not a god-fearing person. Life is so much lovelier without superstitious terrors haunting the mind.

I'm not greedy. Life is sufficient. It's a wonderful and amazing thing, to be able to experience existence. With only natural fears, such as any animal would have: forest fires would be my worst, I think.

That's the only thing that saddens me. Life if short for most animals and they often die cruel deaths. But I have to accept that -- it's nature's way. I prefer to think that it is the undirected behavior of a system, rather than such suffering is the deliberate design of some god. If such a god existed, he would be a monster. How can you trust a monster?

So I have no fears of an eternity of torture caused by a 'loving' god!

And I can be true and loving with my friends and family. I don't need to shut any 'heretics' out of my life. I can freely accept people of good will, no matter what they believe about the supernatural.

Secretly, though, I wish all my children were atheists. I have one Christian child and one (Western) Buddhist child, and one who's an agnostic. But I won't try to influence them, except by example.

The agnostic says he'd like to think that there's some sort of supreme mind ruling the universe. We have quite interesting discussions about that. I have no problem with 'intelligence' in the universe -- we know there's some here already, inside our own brains, albeit of a very limited sort. So why not 'intelligences' all over the place?

But one supreme intelligence? That I find to be too much of a stretch! If one did exist, it would be a god who loved science more than it loved mankind. The god of the beetles, the volcanos, the deep-ocean thermal vent creatures, the gorgeous tree-hoppers of the Amazon jungle -- and of course the inconceivably violent energy of the cosmos.

Only a very limited intelligence could imagine that a big magic guy that looked like a man (but with useless nipples and penis - so much for 'intelligent design') made that universe, and then gave it to one tiny segment of one species on one insignificant planet of one small sun, and plans to kill all the rest of the creatures. Oh, and by the way, got it all wrong: his 'chosen people' turned out to be not at all what he wanted. So like a bad-tempered child who destroys his sand-box playland, he flooded it and killed almost everything!

And that's what we're supposed to spend all eternity with!

Anyone who can't see that this is a myth shouldn't have a driver's license.

If I were that god, I would be up to my ears in experiments all the time! (If I had ears!) I wouldn't bother my 'head' about some lady who felt guilty because she missed Sunday morning mass once in a while.

[Elizabeth I]

No. Atheism is equal to puppies and kitties and good beer and rainbows.


(Hey, ask a silly question...)

And chocolate! Don't forget chocolate!

[Hokulele]

Oh, yes. Atheism is definitely equal to chocolate.

Mmmm, rich, dark, silky chocolate...

[Ausmerican]

The blurb below the video states:

In the video, Pastor Mark Driscoll examines Luke 2, where an angel announces the birth of Jesus, Christ the Lord, to shepherds in a field. The angel reveals how we are to see Jesus. We are not to insert him into a false ideology (e.g., atheism, deism, pantheism/panentheism, or theism) that offers no hope, no good news, no savior. Rather, we are to praise Jesus like the angels, Mary, and the shepherds did.
So since:
1. I don't insert Jesus into my atheism (cos that would kind of nullify it as far as atheism goes)and,
2. my atheism doesn't offer "no hope, no good news"
then I guess he is just talking about those Jesus loving atheists that have no hope when he is talking about this "unyielding despair". The rest of us are okay.

[dogjones]

Obviously you do not know the Douchebag Theory of religious relativity:

Sum(religions != your pet religion) = k*sum(bad stuff)^(DB)

where
k = an arbitrary constant equal to the strength of your convictions
DB = douchebag coefficient, which is proportional to the degree of one's douchebaggieness.

Brilliant!

[PixyMisa]

Cake or death?

[Deus Ex Machina]

No. Atheism is equal to puppies and kitties and good beer and rainbows.


(Hey, ask a silly question...)

Zackly....

[Gawdzilla]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/

I'm 59 years old, retired from the USN, been in 72 countries at least overnight, married two wonderful women and one bitch, and am dating a lovely lady. I am, and I have been, having a ball. Not much despair in my life, no time for it.

[Beerina]

I'm not sure why I should feel despair.

- There is nothing spiritual and when you die, you die.
- A god exists who will resurrect you, then almost certainly throw you in Hell with almost everybody else who ever lived, unless you jump through some pretty bizarre hoops.


Not really sure which is the worse scenario, quite frankly.

[Bikewer]

I must have missed my quota of despair somewhere along the line...

I have long maintained that religion is an immature means of dealing with life. The big sky-daddy will take care of you....You may not understand it now, but it will all be explained...Later.

The atheist/humanist stands up on his/her two feet and takes responsibility for life.

[Foster Zygote]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/

Not even remotely. I just spent a lovely day with my beautiful wife and our adorable five year old son. When I kissed my son's forehead as I tucked him into bed he smiled at me and said "I love you". Every time he does that happiness floods through me.

Rather than despair, I feel hope and optimism. The love we share with others will live beyond us.

[RSLancastr]

Only for certain values of Unyielding Despair.

[JWideman]

The God I used to believe in was going to murder everyone I loved.

[shadron]

I'm 59 years old, retired from the USN, been in 72 countries at least overnight, married two wonderful women and one bitch, and am dating a lovely lady. I am, and I have been, having a ball. Not much despair in my life, no time for it.

Likewise. 45 years as an atheist. If this is despair then I don't understand what everyone is always so upset about.

(Please, no disrespect intended upon those who really are depressed; I understand that, as well as I night, and I do sympathize. I just need to make this joke in order to emphasize what a joke I believe this guy's argument is.)

[fuelair]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/

I fear not here. Not even yielding despair. Basically happy and productive.
I spects Paster Marc Driscoll is scared crapless of dying and finding (well, not really, nothing there) nothing. And not having time to realize nothing bad happened to atheists and other religionists.

[Pure Argent]

I'm not sure why I should feel despair.

- There is nothing spiritual and when you die, you die.
- A god exists who will resurrect you, then almost certainly throw you in Hell with almost everybody else who ever lived, unless you jump through some pretty bizarre hoops.


Not really sure which is the worse scenario, quite frankly.

Life's a *****, and then when you die there's a chance of it being a ***** for all eternity.

[Wowbagger]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?If it was, you should expect to see a much larger rate of suicides, and much lower rate of employment, productivity or relationship-building amongst atheists.

But, that is not at all what we see. For some reason, many atheists manage to cope very nicely.

They all have different reasons: raising and helping loved ones gives them happiness, studying the intricate ways in which life and the universe works fills them with glee! Whatever it is, atheism is clearly not equal to unyielding despair.

[jmcvann]

I had to stop the clip when he said: "You ever wonder why atheists don't have great songs?" (getting a chuckle from the crowd) So of course I did a quick search (read: Google "atheist songwriters" which sent me to, of course, Wikipedia). So sure my research lacks depth, but there is a Wikipedia page for "List of nontheists (music)." Among those listed (alphabetically): Bela Bartok, Hector Berlioz, Bjork, Johannes Brahms, Ani DeFranco, Danny Elfman, Brian Eno, Bob Geldof, Sir Peter Maxwell Davies, Simon Napier-Bell, Richard Rodgers, Dmitri Shostakovich, Richard Strauss, Eddie Vedder, Roger Waters, Jerry Wexler and (of course!) Frank Zappa.

And I'm quite sure the list is not complete. Seems like my mp3 player can be filled nicely without religious types. (To be clear, I want my Mozart.)

OK...now back to listen to the read of the pinhead's sermon.

(Edited for typo)

[joobz]

I like the slide in the background:
5 worldviews:
1. Atheism
2. Deism
3. Pantheism
4. Theism
5. Christianity



I never thought someone could make a slide demonstrate the concept of special pleading so concisely.

[Xephyr]

I have no 'unyielding despair'. Nor am I an alcoholic/heroine addict/wrist cutter/etc etc.

... guess I missed the memo

:rolleyes:

[Maia]

If it was, you should expect to see a much larger rate of suicides, and much lower rate of employment, productivity or relationship-building amongst atheists.


Oh, but that IS what Pastor Mark says. He completely blames suicide rates on atheists (or claims that everybody killing themselves these days is an atheist, or influenced by evil atheists, or maybe all of the above. It's hard to tell.) It's right after the part about how atheism causes depression. :rolleyes:

[devnull]

Id respond to this thread, but god Im despressed.

[blobru]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/


From Driscoll's youtube clip: "Here's what he [Russell] is saying: 'There is no god; you come from nowhere and no one; you're here for no purpose; if you are hurting or suffering, there is no one to help you or rescue you or comfort you; and when you die, there is nothing awaiting you.'"

Russell would agree there is no god, and nothing after death. But the cruel joke in between is Driscoll's; it is not what Russell is saying.

In the famous essay the original quote is taken from, "A Free Man's Worship (http://www.solstice.us/russell/freeman.html)", Russell argues that we comfort each other: it is the truth of our common destiny, the fact that all of us must die, that teaches us sympathy, that should teach us to help each other where we can, while we live. We come from somewhere: our parents, our past: the recognition our ideals are our own impermanent creation doesn't make them meaningless, but more meaningful than ever; we can be inspired that such as us have aspired to impossible heights. Our purpose is various and our own to find. The bare foundation of existence, the bare fact that it must end, is "unyielding despair", according to Russell; but that is not the humane edifice he envisions; the shrine of creative idealism, of reason, science and compassion overcoming blind fate that he embraces; the temple of art that inspires us to seek those impossible heights, that ennobles our everyday existence and mitigates our pain with wisdom, that he argues for.

Driscoll must be either profoundly ignorant or professionally dishonest to argue the strawman that atheism = unyielding despair. Whether Driscoll = dishonesty or Driscoll = ignorance, whether he is too ignorant to know he is dishonest, or too dishonest to admit he is ignorant, is the only question I take from his sermon.

[Ausmerican]

Driscoll must be either profoundly ignorant or professionally dishonest to argue the strawman that atheism = unyielding despair. Whether Driscoll = dishonesty or Driscoll = ignorance, whether he is too ignorant to know he is dishonest, or too dishonest to admit he is ignorant, is the only question I take from his sermon.


False dichotomy. I am quite prepared to believe Driscoll is profoundly ignorant AND professionally dishonest.

[blobru]

False dichotomy. I am quite prepared to believe Driscoll is profoundly ignorant AND professionally dishonest.


I concede the point.

[Wowbagger]

Oh, but that IS what Pastor Mark says. He completely blames suicide rates on atheists (or claims that everybody killing themselves these days is an atheist, or influenced by evil atheists, or maybe all of the above. It's hard to tell.) It's right after the part about how atheism causes depression. :rolleyes:That IS what he is saying. But, I don't think the data bares that out.

The number one causes of suicide are untreated depression and mental illness, with some people more genetically prone to such thoughts than others. And, there is a looong list of things people could be depressed about, and illnesses one could suffer.

If what Pastor Mark is implying is true, then the most effective councelling for almost anyone with suicidal thoughts would be to remind them: "Don't become an atheist!!"
Somehow, I doubt even Pastor Mark would agree that that would be proper. (And, if he does he could be a more dangerous person than I thought.)

[Theophage]

I left the following comment on the blog:

--------------
Oh Noes! I am in unyielding despair!

Hang on a minute…no I’m not. Hmm, that’s funny. Maybe I’m despairing and I just didn’t notice?
--------------

But I noticed afterward it said "Your comment is awaiting moderation." I wonder if it will show up?

[CriticalSock]

I don't think you can make a sweeping generalisation about any group. Do I mean generalisations? I mean you can say that christians believe in christ, that's a generalisation. Perhaps it would be better to say you can't make a sweeping value judgement about any group.

I'm sure there are depressed atheists, just as there are depressed christians. And what's with "Unyielding Despair" What is this? Pilgrims Progress?? Silly overblown, emotive language in my opinion.

Of course this is another example of a fundamentalist christian doing the forum equivalent of a drive by shooting. We're all doing our best to make a reasoned argument against the OP, but the fundy is already back in his crib, polishing up his god guns.

How depressing. :)

[withallyourmind]

...but the fundy is already back in his crib, polishing up his god guns.

How depressing. :)

LOL... I like that. One is a water pistol though.

[Dave Rogers]

It's utterly irrelevant whether atheism constitutes unyielding despair or not. In the late 1970's, I felt a sense of unyielding despair that there were two mutually hostile power blocs in the world, both in posession of enough weaponry not only to wipe out the entire population of the world but arguably to render it uninhabitable by any higher life forms. The fact that I found this knowledge depressing made it no less true.

Dave

[CriticalSock]

LOL... I like that. One is a water pistol though.

Heyyyyy! You came back! So, what are your thoughts on peoples responses in this thread?

[Gawdzilla]

The god-botherers need us to be depressed so they can point and say, "See? Without God there is no point to life." (Insert language based on 20 years in the USN here.)

[CriticalSock]

USN = Ultra Sexy Nurses?

[Gawdzilla]

USN = Ultra Sexy Nurses?

Must have missed that part. However, if "Magsaysay" means anything to you? ;)

[Damien Evans]

The reviewer in Hebrews 13:8 got it about right:

" Jesus Christ — the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

That was actually sent by a frustrated Australian General in New Guinea (I think it was Allan) as a comment on both the weather and the Japanese tactics.

[Greediguts]

No. Atheism is equal to puppies and kitties and good beer and rainbows.


(Hey, ask a silly question...)

And chocolate! Don't forget chocolate!

Oh, yes. Atheism is definitely equal to chocolate.

Mmmm, rich, dark, silky chocolate...

What?!? You forgot bacon! Crispy strips of bacon!

[Belz...]

Actually, I think you'll find most atheists are pretty optimistic about the world around them.

More so than many theists, anyway.

[CriticalSock]

Must have missed that part. However, if "Magsaysay" means anything to you? ;)

I looked USN up on tinternet... I'm such a nubbin. :blush:

I looked up Magsaysay as well. The phrase "Hospitality Personnel" leapt off the screen!

I'll be in my bunk.

[KingMerv00]

No. Atheism is equal to puppies and kitties and good beer and rainbows.


(Hey, ask a silly question...)

Oh, yes. Atheism is definitely equal to chocolate.

Mmmm, rich, dark, silky chocolate...

What?!? You forgot bacon! Crispy strips of bacon!


I'll be in my bunk.

Atheism is also Firefly and nerd references.

[Maia]

I don't think you can make a sweeping generalisation about any group. Do I mean generalisations? I mean you can say that christians believe in christ, that's a generalisation. Perhaps it would be better to say you can't make a sweeping value judgement about any group.



True, because if it comes to that, not all Christians believe in Christ. But don't forget that chocolate-covered_bacon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate-covered_bacon), (although on second thought, maybe we all should.)

[CriticalSock]

Originally Posted by CriticalSock
I'll be in my bunk.

Atheism is also Firefly and nerd references.

And that is why Atheism is so darn uplifting and not depressing at all. oh no, not one whit.

[CriticalSock]

True, because if it comes to that, not all Christians believe in Christ. But don't forget that chocolate-covered_bacon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate-covered_bacon), (although on second thought, maybe we all should.)


Chocolate.

Covered.

Bacon.


Wow.

I've never wanted to be American so much before in my life!

[Moochie]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/


This is funny, to me, in a sad way. The most despair I ever felt was as a child who was told by the priests and nuns at the Catholic school that if he didn't go to mass, he would suffer eternal damnation. And since most of the time my nominal Catholic parents wouldn't allow me to attend mass, I was in a terrible bind that would often see me weeping uncontrollably.


I'm so glad that this sort of nonsense is a very long way behind me now.


I think Pastor Mark Driscoll is projecting, probably to keep his "flock" in line.


M.

[SonOfLaertes]

False dichotomy. I am quite prepared to believe Driscoll is profoundly ignorant AND professionally dishonest.

I see the "professional dishonesty" in many of these cases as a business decision. The thing to remember about many of the "preachers" who ply their trade through the media is that they are in a very competitive environment. There are lots of wanna-be's out there hoping to be the next Joel Osteen or Rick Warren - and thereby gain that level of wealth, power and women (or men/young boys).

Hyperbolic bluster plays well with the demographic these people are trying to reach. One must find a signature niche to make one's voice rise above the din.

Unfortunately the target demographic for this man is: "not particularly intelligent, age level not a factor, anxious to rationalize their own beliefs". A thinking person would realize immediately that they know many depressed Christians and dismiss this man's claim outright.

[Wowbagger]

I've never wanted to be American so much before in my life!
I don't think chocolate covered bacon was really supposed to be a food. I think it was really just a prank - a joke - that kinda got out of hand.

[KingMerv00]

I don't think chocolate covered bacon was really supposed to be a food. I think it was really just a prank - a joke - that kinda got out of hand.

Do you see me laughing?

[Maia]

I don't think chocolate covered bacon was really supposed to be a food. I think it was really just a prank - a joke - that kinda got out of hand.

I have seen people eating it. In public. Where others could see them. :eye-poppi

[GanipGnop]

True, because if it comes to that, not all Christians believe in Christ. But don't forget that chocolate-covered_bacon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate-covered_bacon), (although on second thought, maybe we all should.)

Ummmmm....Chocolate-Covered Bacon..... Sacrilicious!!!

[Ladewig]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

Is that what you are wondering. Well, wonder no more, because it is not true for me nor any of the other atheists I know.

So now that you know this, what is your opinion of the good pastor?

[Eyeron]

Atheism is better than sex.

[joobz]

Atheism is better than sex.
Would you say atheism is better than not stamp collecting?

[IMST]

Atheism is better than sex.

You have my condolences on what I can only infer is virginity.

[fuelair]

"You are a fluke of the Universe - you have no right to be here.
And whether you believe it or not, the Universe is laughing behind your back."
Deteriorata

[KingMerv00]

Atheism is better than sex.

Two possibilities:

1) You are doing the latter wrong.

2) You are doing the former in a way I need to learn immediately. (I'm willing to pay.)

[Astreja]

"You are a fluke of the Universe - you have no right to be here.
And whether you believe it or not, the Universe is laughing behind your back."
Deteriorata:D Ah, the National Lampoon album Radio Dinner. That brings back memories. (And, IIRC, it's Leonard Nimoy reading that charming little woospoof.)

To address the OP, I am an agnostic atheist humanist. I think that 'life after death' consists not of a deed to an eternal mansion, but as constant atomic reconstitution as other stuff... Some of which will probably be sentient stuff, and some of which might even make it into outer space some day.

Part of what I am has already wandered off to become other things, and eventually my body will die and my brain will go with it. At that moment, the JREF poster known as Astreja will be gone and will probably not be back.

This is why I don't take my 'self' too seriously -- I'm not even the same person that I was yesterday.

But does this mindset cause despair? As a rule, no. My days are full of things to do, people to see, pussycats to pet. I strive to do competent and engaging work, both for pay and for its own sake. My 'meaning of life' exists in the here and now, in the doing and in the experiencing.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/It's idiotic. Of course one doesn't need to believe in mythical gods in order to have a wonderful fulfilling life.

[likelystory]

Actually, I think you'll find most atheists are pretty optimistic about the world around them.

No hell or afterlife or screwy/sketchy rewards/punishments system to worry about. Most of us just live our lives, one day at a time, thankful for the experience and the beauty around us.

I know when I die, that's it. So why bother wasting my time alive worrying about anything other than making it the best experience I can? ;)
Is dying like sleeping? I don't know when I'm asleep,so how will people know when they're dead?
Hope the question can be answered or explored.

[BobTheDonkey]

Is dying like sleeping? I don't know when I'm asleep,so how will people know when they're dead?
Hope the question can be answered or explored.

Hmm...an interesting question. To be honest, I don't think people know when they're dead - after all, that's the (ultimate) end of consciousness (consciousness being a side effect, if you will, of neural activity).

Intriguing, actually. When a loved one dies, everyone says "he/she ceased to exist." But, really, his/her body is still in existence - and will be for some time. So I'd have to say that death is when person's consciousness ceases to exist.

[CriticalSock]

I think dying is like sleeping for those around the dead person. The dead person lies there, unresponsive. The closest thing that they've done before in their lives that looks anything similar is when they're deeply asleep.*

But for the person who has actually undergone the process of dying, I imagine it's very different from being asleep. No lucid dreaming, no half waking up and knocking the glass of water beside your bed over... no nothing.


* Unless they died by falling feet first into an industrial woodchipper of course.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Two possibilities:

1) You are doing the latter wrong.

2) You are doing the former in a way I need to learn immediately. (I'm willing to pay.)

What he said. Merv for the win!

A

[tsig]

Is that what you are wondering. Well, wonder no more, because it is not true for me nor any of the other atheists I know.

So now that you know this, what is your opinion of the good pastor?

I'm wondering how the pastor knows anything about atheism. Has he walked on the wild side?

[KingMerv00]

Is dying like sleeping? I don't know when I'm asleep,so how will people know when they're dead?
Hope the question can be answered or explored.

I imagine that death "feels like" it "felt" before you were born.

[Rasmus]

But for the person who has actually undergone the process of dying,

There is no such person.

I imagine it's very different from being asleep. No lucid dreaming, no half waking up and knocking the glass of water beside your bed over... no nothing.

No person. There is nobody there to experience "being dead".


* Unless they died by falling feet first into an industrial woodchipper of course.[/quote]

[KingMerv00]

There is no such person.



No person. There is nobody there to experience "being dead".

May favorite analogy for death: "If I turn off a calculator, where do the numbers go?"

[Upchurch]

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:
Not even vaguely close. I doubt this guy has ever even talked to an atheist. Or, if he has, he wasn't listening.

[CriticalSock]

There is no such person.


Of course there is! But only in the minds of other people still living.



No person. There is nobody there to experience "being dead".


True.

[Rasmus]

Of course there is! But only in the minds of other people still living.

Well, yes, I agree that for the observers it is (almost) as if the person was asleep. But that's just a cute way of denying the obvious. You could just as well argue that someone who's asleep is as good as dead - and chances are that would meet with a lot less agreement.

[Cainkane1]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/
When I became an atheist I never felt better in my life. No more superstitious nonsense and whatever.

[Upchurch]

When I became an atheist I never felt better in my life. No more superstitious nonsense and whatever.

I had a similar experience. With the realization that there is no actual force of good* in the universe comes the realization that there is no force of evil* either. A lot of boogie men disappear that way.




* aside from what we humans introduce through our actions and frames of reference.

[CriticalSock]

Well, yes, I agree that for the observers it is (almost) as if the person was asleep. But that's just a cute way of denying the obvious. You could just as well argue that someone who's asleep is as good as dead - and chances are that would meet with a lot less agreement.

I disagree. The only people who discuss what the state of death is comparable to are the living. It's not a cute way of denying the obvious, it's a simple way of describing the way dead people look.

And it's the only meaningful comparison which can be made between being dead and being asleep.


Dead is dead is dead.

Unless you're alive. :)

[Marcus]

It's utterly irrelevant whether atheism constitutes unyielding despair or not. In the late 1970's, I felt a sense of unyielding despair that there were two mutually hostile power blocs in the world, both in posession of enough weaponry not only to wipe out the entire population of the world but arguably to render it uninhabitable by any higher life forms. The fact that I found this knowledge depressing made it no less true.

Dave
This is a point which seems to be lost on theists. It's like they don't care what is actually true, if a belief in Sky Daddy will make them feel better, they would rather Believe.

[Marcus]

Is dying like sleeping? I don't know when I'm asleep,so how will people know when they're dead?
Hope the question can be answered or explored.
Being dead will be like the way it was before you were born. That time period (before you were born) wasn't scary, or bad, or good, and it will be the same after you die.There will be no "you" to have an awareness of death.

[BobTheDonkey]

I had a similar experience. With the realization that there is no actual force of good* in the universe comes the realization that there is no force of evil* either. A lot of boogie men disappear that way.




* aside from what we humans introduce through our actions and frames of reference.

And with that realization (the side note), we realize as well that no one is going to save us from ourselves. If we want a better world, it's up to us to make it better. Quite the opposite of depression.

[Maia]

I'm wondering how the pastor knows anything about atheism. Has he walked on the wild side?

Wellll.... based on some of the weird things he's said, especially about how in cases where evangelical ministers have gay sex with underage male hookers, their wives are actually to blame because they've "let themselves go" and no longer meet the standard of seductiveness set in the Song of Songs, my guess is that Pastor Mark has indeed walked on the wild side more than once. My prediction is that he'll be caught in a sex scandal involving S/M pansexual leather bars soon. :rolleyes:

[tsig]

Wellll.... based on some of the weird things he's said, especially about how in cases where evangelical ministers have gay sex with underage male hookers, their wives are actually to blame because they've "let themselves go" and no longer meet the standard of seductiveness set in the Song of Songs, my guess is that Pastor Mark has indeed walked on the wild side more than once. My prediction is that he'll be caught in a sex scandal involving S/M pansexual leather bars soon. :rolleyes:

They always preach what they know best.

[cgordon]

[QUOTE=Hokulele;5524016]No. Atheism is equal to puppies and kitties and good beer and rainbows.
QUOTE]


Hokulele is full of WIN!

(No, you, not WIND ...)

[Ladewig]

Withallyourmind, sometimes we get people who believe that the best way to bring people to Jesus is to post on "hostile" website. I do hope you are not one of those people. A rational examination of facts and evidence is all that is needed to make most folks on this board reconsider their positions.

As for the specific content of your post, if I picked a single quote from each of two prominent Christians, do you think I could then make accurate conclusions about all Christians?

[withallyourmind]

When I became an atheist I never felt better in my life. No more superstitious nonsense and whatever.

From previous discussions, i'm not convinced that you became an atheist, I think you've always been one. Or am I wrong?

[withallyourmind]

As for the specific content of your post, if I picked a single quote from each of two prominent Christians, do you think I could then make accurate conclusions about all Christians?

Not sure I understand your question. Could you elaborate?

[Ladewig]

Not sure I understand your question. Could you elaborate?

I was pointing out how unfair the minister in the video was. Drawing conclusion about all atheists based on isolated quotes from two prominent atheists will not lead to accurate conclusions about all atheists. Similarly, if I grabbed just two prominent Christians and selected a quote from each of them, removed all context related to that quote, and then drew conclusions about hundreds of millions of Christians, then I would be committing quite an error.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I am glad my suspicions about you being in the post-and-run category were wrong.

[Ladewig]

One last quick question. Now that you have seen a number of posters indicate that neither they nor any atheists they know face unyielding despair, what is your opinion of the minister? and your opinion of JREF? and your opinion of atheists in general?

[Elizabeth I]

I was pointing out how unfair the minister in the video was. Drawing conclusion about all atheists based on isolated quotes from two prominent atheists will not lead to accurate conclusions about all atheists. Similarly, if I grabbed just two prominent Christians and selected a quote from each of them, removed all context related to that quote, and then drew conclusions about hundreds of millions of Christians, then I would be committing quite an error.

Yes, for example, what if we judged all Christians by Pat Robertson's extremely UNChristian remarks about all the people suffering in Haiti?

[poeatszeitgeist]

On a somewhat related note, is anyone else a little shocked by this?

NSFW: http://blog.marshillchurch.org/author/mdriscoll/page/7/

Pastor Mark Driscoll answers your anonymous sex questions! Lots of 'em!

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[MRC_Hans]

From previous discussions, i'm not convinced that you became an atheist, I think you've always been one. Or am I wrong?No true Scotsman argument, anybody? You know, religion is like this: I don't question you being a Christian, if you define yourself as one, because you are the only human who can know. Please do the same.

Hans

[Professor Yaffle]

Am I going to be the first to admit that since I became an atheist I have experienced several long periods of terrible despair?













Had similar long periods of despair when I believed in God though. Recurrent depression/SAD is a bit of a bummer like that.


I found it quite easy to let go of my belief in the end because by that point I had realised that the only God I was willing to believe in was one that didn't give a fig whether I believed in him or not.

[Ladewig]

One last quick question. Now that you have seen a number of posters indicate that neither they nor any atheists they know face unyielding despair, what is your opinion of the minister?

and your opinion of JREF?

and your opinion of atheists in general?

[slingblade]

From previous discussions, i'm not convinced that you became an atheist, I think you've always been one. Or am I wrong?

I think you're bordering on arrogant in your assumptions.

[Abdul Alhazred]

No. Atheism is equal to puppies and kitties and good beer and rainbows.

I must be doing it wrong.

I'm OK with the puppies and kitties, but what am I supposed to do with that portal to an abyss of infinite evil I opened?

[AvalonXQ]

I'm OK with the puppies and kitties, but what am I supposed to do with that portal to an abyss of infinite evil I opened?

How did you manage to open a portal to Washington, D.C.? Is it stable?

[Beerina]

To those who believe atheists suffer from extreme despair and hoplessness, a question: If it turns out this is false, what does that say for your worldview, which includes the concept that atheists must suffer from this because they cannot have, what, hope and happiness?, because they do not believe in, much less deal with via prayer, God?

Does your worldview include that equation? If not, why the OP issue, then?

[dlorde]

Ah, of course, atheists do suffer from extreme despair and hopelessness, but what is worse, they are unfortunate enough not to realise it... poor things.

Mind you, theists have their darker moments, if the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins is anything to go by ('I wake and feel the fell of dark not day', etc).

[tsig]

Ah, of course, atheists do suffer from extreme despair and hopelessness, but what is worse, they are unfortunate enough not to realise it... poor things.

Mind you, theists have their darker moments, if the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins is anything to go by ('I wake and feel the fell of dark not day', etc).

""Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me"



(Buck Owens & Roy Clark from the TV Show Hee-Haw 1969-1992)"


C & W truth to live by.

[Trent Wray]

actually ... in some of my previous attempts to live by certain beliefs in a god, it PRODUCED agony and essentially an unyielding despair.

and in those moments, I was told to "have more faith" and not give up.

and so I didn't. and the despair and agony and pain got worse as I waited "by faith" ---- against my own desire. the sacrifices i was making in the name of faith were basically what was crushing my own hopes and destroying my family, throwing them under a bus they never asked to be thrown under "in the name of god".

and so then I was told "you have the incorrect view of god then, you're having faith in a false god, not the real god," etc etc.

So regardless of what I believe now .... the idea that an unbeliever has only unyielding despair and that a believer always has a glorious hope before them is not only ridiculous, but it's not even part of the average Judaeo-Christian tradition. Just look at Job, or many of the Psalms of David, or Jonah for example. Didn't they experience a despair that seemed to be without end at times?

[tsig]

actually ... in some of my previous attempts to live by certain beliefs in a god, it PRODUCED agony and essentially an unyielding despair.

and in those moments, I was told to "have more faith" and not give up.

and so I didn't. and the despair and agony and pain got worse as I waited "by faith" ---- against my own desire. the sacrifices i was making in the name of faith were basically what was crushing my own hopes and destroying my family, throwing them under a bus they never asked to be thrown under "in the name of god".

and so then I was told "you have the incorrect view of god then, you're having faith in a false god, not the real god," etc etc.

So regardless of what I believe now .... the idea that an unbeliever has only unyielding despair and that a believer always has a glorious hope before them is not only ridiculous, but it's not even part of the average Judaeo-Christian tradition. Just look at Job, or many of the Psalms of David, or Jonah for example. Didn't they experience a despair that seemed to be without end at times?

Once you get over your self you will get over god.

[Trent Wray]

Once you get over your self you will get over god.

Oh I wasn't defending faith ... I was pointing out that faith actually causes unyielding despair at times, and Judaeo-Christians often "conveniently forget" classical examples of that very thing are even in their own bibles.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Is Atheism equal to Unyielding Despair?

Pastor Mark Driscoll seems to. I wonder whether your experiences match up with what he says here:

http://coffeeshopjesus.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/atheism-unyielding-despair/

Where the hell does a guy with a fauxhawk get off telling anyone anything?
http://www.marshillchurch.org/markdriscoll

[Trent Wray]

Where the hell does a guy with a fauxhawk get off telling anyone anything?
http://www.marshillchurch.org/markdriscoll

Has anyone actually watched his video? Wow.

The atheisitic life of unyielding despair leads to , quote, "sex, shopping, entertainment, and a conspicuous consumer lifestyle."

Nice looking church he was preaching from. His shirt was a little too pricey for my tastes though. It was a good quality video he posted on the internet. I wonder if his parents had sex to produce him though?

[learner]

Where the hell does a guy with a fauxhawk get off telling anyone anything?
http://www.marshillchurch.org/markdriscoll

One of the questons was "Is it ok to have sex with my wife when she is on her cycle?"

My answer would be " No, she is trying to get away. Leave her alone"

[barrymore]

Well I do not mean to generalize, but some religious people are religious solely because of the fact that they believed that past problems and feelings were due to being atheist (or not religious enough). That is where you have these born-again Christians and stuff. Obviously there are two problems: 1.) they associate the transition from atheism to religion as the reason for their new-found bliss, and 2.) they think (hope?) everyone was as miserable as them when they were atheist. Yikes.

Here was my favorite part of the talk:
"That's all there is [just this life]. Philosophically, if worked out to its logical conclusion, this is a horrific way to live your life." :/ What??

[AvalonXQ]

One of the questons was "Is it ok to have sex with my wife when she is on her cycle?"

My answer would be " No, she is trying to get away. Leave her alone"

... really? In my experience, they tend to be quite, erm, affectionate during that interval.

[Darth Rotor]

Must have missed that part. However, if "Magsaysay" means anything to you? ;)

Utter Debauchery. :cool: The despair tended to come when underway a few days later, and people noticed that their feet keep getting dripped on by their sausages ... which they had of course failed to wrap.

[babbits]

Wellll.... based on some of the weird things he's said, especially about how in cases where evangelical ministers have gay sex with underage male hookers, their wives are actually to blame because they've "let themselves go" and no longer meet the standard of seductiveness set in the Song of Songs,...:rolleyes:

Wow! Not only is his description of atheists so off the mark as to be absurd, but he doesn't have the foggiest notion of what homosexuality is!

Like, supposing I'm married to a guy who has 'let himself go'. (Hey, it happens!) Would I turn to another woman? Well, yeah, for consolation and advice.

But for sex? No! I'm heterosexual!

To think that that clown Pastor Mark Driscoll is in a position to ADVISE people who are in emotional pain about the problems of homosexuality OR ANYTHING ELSE - and is paid by his 'victims of ignorance' for doing it - is disturbing!

[babbits]

And with that realization (the side note), we realize as well that no one is going to save us from ourselves. If we want a better world, it's up to us to make it better. Quite the opposite of depression.

Do you suppose that's why atheists seem, on the whole, to be more GENUINELY cheerful than some theists? We just grew up, when we realized there is no god.

Once we mature and realize that WE are responsible for our state, to a greater degree than any other factor in our lives, we set about to make the changes we can.

No spook to pray to. Fix it, if you can. Otherwise, accept it. Meanwhile, enjoy it!

[novaphile]

Do you suppose that's why atheists seem, on the whole, to be more GENUINELY cheerful than some theists? ...

... Fix it, if you can. Otherwise, accept it...

I think you're on to something...

I've met quite a few people over my lifetime, many of whom profess to a religious faith, and a much larger number who have no religious faith, or, as far as I can tell, believe in any kind of deity.

The latter group, who are more or less atheists (even in Australia people tend not to go around announcing themselves as Atheists), all have seemed much less prone to depression problems.

It seems to me that having to live your life to a set of arbitrary rules, that may be changed on a daily basis by power-shifts within an organised religion, and the belief that one is not the master of one's destiny... these things could lead to depression.

This becomes even worse if you factor in the reprehensible behaviour of some church leaders, who abused their positions to gain wealth, or sexual favours or control of their faithful members.

Being in control of your own life and not subject to the whims of invisible beings and the whole priest class seems like a much happier option to me.

Has anyone actually checked to see if there is any relationship between belief systems and happiness?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, just to be fair, I'm an atheist and I come from a long line of genetically depressed people. I've been just fine for decades but I also take an antidepressant (SSRI). On my father's side there were 2 suicides (grandfather and great grandfather) including one that also involved a murder (great grandfather). My own father and a number of relatives on his side were also alcoholics, including my brother.

In other words, I think a lot of depression is biological and at least some has a genetic component.

[babbits]

You're right,
ginger, genes have a lot to do with CLINICAL depression. But that's not the same as 'unyielding despair', the term used in the O.P.

Clinical depression is a disorder than can be diagnosed on the basis of certain symptoms. It yields to treatment and lifestyle changes. For example, outdoor activity and exercise, avoiding depressants such as alcohol, sedatives and opiates - which are all toxic to the bipolar sufferer.

But the O.P. specified "UNYIELDING despair".

My ex and his mother were both bipolar. Both belonged to the Spiritist religion. (Talk to the dead, believe all will be revealed to us after death, etc., seances, etc.)

When he told me he was a Spiritist (I had already told him I was an atheist) and described their rituals, I thought he was kidding! I thought he was an atheist! (Godwise, I think they're Deists, but I'm not sure.)

We married. In spite of his strong belief in an afterlife, he was clinically depressed a lot of the time. He also was a chronic alcoholic. And he wanted me to convert!! To the religion, that is, not to the alcoholism.

Being a skeptic, I questioned his accounts of the seances.

a: Me: Why wouldn't the medium allow lights during the seances?
He: The light could kill the medium when he/she expressed ectoplasm.
Me: What about infra-red? U.v.?
He: Same diff.

b: It doesn't matter what you do in this life, in the next life you will understand everything, and then you will be wise and good. The only punishment for sin is in this life.
Me: That sounds rather convenient -- and amoral.
He: Wrong. It's highly moral.
Me: What about innocent bystanders who are hurt by one's behavior?
He: No problem, they'll understand everything in the next life, too.

c: His evidence: a little boy, created during a seance by the medium who somehow captured his dead spirit in ectoplasm, had been offered a piece of chocolate bar by the medium. Later, in the bathroom, my ex had found a small tablet of chocolate with tiny teeth marks where a bite had been taken.
Me: Ummm, was the medium paid for performing the seance?
Him: Of course. A minister or priest is paid for his services, is he not?
Me: Yabbut that payment might create a motive for the medium to leave some fake evidence.
Him: No, mediums are highly moral and responsible. Because the spirits know if the medium indulges in fakery, and will never visit that medium again.
Me: How could you tell?

He would become furious because I did not accept his personal, eye-witness 'evidence'.

(And he WAS an intelligent man! He seemed to have two compartments in his brain: one or practical, everyday stuff, his technical work, etc., and the other uncritical part for woo-woo stuff).

It was no less spooky and fake than any other religion. And morally worse, I think, because he was not motivated to live a better life since there was neither reward nor punishment in the afterlife. Sort of like Calvinism/Presbyterianism's predestination, since there's little motivation to give up bad habits if you're either saved or not-saved before you're even born.

Anyway, I took the kids and split before he had totally freaked them up. He was still an alcohol abuser when we left, and had no faith in medicine.

Two of my three are bipolar, neither uses alcohol or non-prescribed drugs. One does well with prescribed meds, the other not so hot. All are adults now.

And the kids still affirm that their lives took an upswing (as did mine) after we left. There are worse things than poverty.

[Manopolus]

This is funny, to me, in a sad way. The most despair I ever felt was as a child who was told by the priests and nuns at the Catholic school that if he didn't go to mass, he would suffer eternal damnation. And since most of the time my nominal Catholic parents wouldn't allow me to attend mass, I was in a terrible bind that would often see me weeping uncontrollably.


I'm so glad that this sort of nonsense is a very long way behind me now.


I think Pastor Mark Driscoll is projecting, probably to keep his "flock" in line.


M.

I can one - up you on that. My greatest despair was when a severely anorexic girl I knew well made me promise "by my faith in God and hope of going to heaven" not to go to an adult about what was about to happen.... she was going to share something with me. She even said she would probably plead at some point for me to go get help, but she said I must promise in advance not to.

... then she cut her wrists

She was dead before anyone but me knew about it. I was about 8 years old at the time.

(added) I suppose that experience made me quite a bit less gullible, in retrospect. And yes, she did, as promised, ask me to go for help... the reason I didn't wasn't so much the promise as it was a more basic type of fear. I was frozen in denial.

[Mister Agenda]

Something no 8 year-old should have to deal with. No words, Man.

[Manopolus]

Something no 8 year-old should have to deal with. No words, Man.

A long time ago, it doesn't bother me much at 37.

[Skeptic Ginger]

You're right,
ginger, genes have a lot to do with CLINICAL depression. But that's not the same as 'unyielding despair', the term used in the O.P. ....Oh, heavens no. I wasn't saying that at all. I was replying to someone who said atheists were happier.


You have my empathy for the rest of your post.

[sgtbaker]

What all you "happy" atheists are failing to understand is that you are using all these fleshly the pleasures you are equating to the opposite of despair are merely distractions from the spiritual emptiness you feel from living out of the god's light. This is how satan tricks you into following...wow, anyone can make up this crap as they go.

Seriously, despair is a key indicator of depressing so you really can equate the two. Saying atheists are nicer people is just as blanketing as saying Christians are
self-righteous people who use their bible as a soap box, it's fun but it's too general. I am sure there are plenty of nice, happy Christians and there are plenty of unpleasant, jerky atheists.

[Hokulele]

I strive to be a pleasant, jerky atheist.

[babbits]

Sorry I misunderstood, Ginger. Thanks for the kind thoughts. :) We've muddled through!

[babbits]

What all you "happy" atheists are failing to understand is that you are using all these fleshly the pleasures you are equating to the opposite of despair are merely distractions from the spiritual emptiness you feel from living out of the god's light. This is how satan tricks you into following...wow, anyone can make up this crap as they go.

Seriously, despair is a key indicator of depressing so you really can equate the two. Saying atheists are nicer people is just as blanketing as saying Christians are
self-righteous people who use their bible as a soap box, it's fun but it's too general. I am sure there are plenty of nice, happy Christians and there are plenty of unpleasant, jerky atheists.
Well, SgtBilko, if by 'fleshly' pleasures, you mean things like family events, going kayaking and canoeing, listening to and playing and singing music, reading good books, going dancing, gardening, mowing the grass, riding horses, walking down to the beach, eating good healthy food grown without pesticides or herbicides, enjoying pets, helping relatives with their property and their projects, you bet, I just wallow in these 'fleshly' pleasures.

Suits me to a T.

If your imaginary demon is tricking anyone, it's you, for holding such superstitious nonsense in your mostly vacant mind. But there must be something dark and evil in you, that you would hold such a being in your imagination at all. All of my friends, and most of my relatives (except my ex-husband) are not demon-haunted, as you are.

It must scare the daylights out of you when you ask yourself, could it be that one of the following that is not your particular narrow belief, could be the only true religion?

7th Day Adventist
Quaker
Jehovah's Witnesses
Roman Catholic

and on and on, 2.1 billion Christians, belonging to THOUSANDS OF SECTS and those just in the Christian camp.

And then there are the others:

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

Each and every member of those cults is every bit as sure that his is the ONLY TRUE belief, as you are sure that you hold the ONLY TRUE BELIEF.

And everyone else will burn in hell, for choosing wrong.

Well, you can't all be right, can you?

It must fill you with unyielding despair, to know that YOU DON'T HAVE TIME, IN THE YEARS YOU HAVE LEFT TO YOU, TO STUDY ALL OF THE THOUSANDS OF SECTS AND PICK THE RIGHT, THE ONLY TRUE ONE!

You have picked one. Or maybe your parents picked it for you. Let's hope they made really good choices in their lives, so that you can believe they made the right one. You owe it to yourself to stop and think: did my parents make wise choices? In everything? Can I trust my immortal soul to their judgment?

Or should I start my quest RIGHT NOW, just in case I have overlooked the ONE TRUE RELIGION!

BECAUSE THERE'S ONLY ONE.


THE FATE OF YOUR ETERNAL SOUL, BLISS OR AGONY, RESTS ON THE ONE RIGHT CHOICE THEY OR YOU HAVE MADE!

It's like winning the lottery. YOU MUST PICK THE RIGHT ONE, OR GO STRAIGHT TO HELL!

So much to do! So little time!

If I were you, I'd stop worring about these atheists, you can't afford the time.

START WORRYING ABOUT YOURSELF!
----------------

Meantime, I'll just go on enjoying my fleshly pleasures.

[Manopolus]

Now re-read what he actually said (which was sarcastic) and wonder if you are actually disagreeing with anyone.

[tsig]

Now re-read what he actually said (which was sarcastic) and wonder if you are actually disagreeing with anyone.

Yeah, he may still have time on the edit button.

Sarcasm if done well is misunderstood and if done bad is also misunderstood.

[sgtbaker]

START WORRYING ABOUT YOURSELF!
----------------

Meantime, I'll just go on enjoying my fleshly pleasures.

Babbits, I am sorry if I came off wrong. I was joking around. Sometimes, because I know what I mean in my head, I assume that everyone else knows what I mean.

This is how satan tricks you into following...wow, anyone can make up this crap as they go.

I tried to drive home that I was being silly with the bold but I can easily see how it could have been misinterpreted. Sorry if I offended :D

Manopolus

Now re-read what he actually said (which was sarcastic) and wonder if you are actually disagreeing with anyone.

She...I'm a she :blush:

[Manopolus]

She...I'm a she :blush:

Well, geez you shoulda told us that so we would KNOW not to take you seriously! (joking)

[sgtbaker]

Well, geez you shoulda told us that so we would KNOW not to take you seriously! (joking)

Good sir, you expect too much, I am, after all, just a girl :confused:

[Pedro De Mello]

Oh, I feel such hatred for this "Pastor" and his "I'm a Christian Priest yet I am a modern guy" shtick.

I would bet 2000 bucks (and I'm not kidding) that if we were to test his blood we would fing cocaine. And I bet he has lots of "purifying sex" with young christian girls.

Or maybe not... but I need to think he does because I hate the person SO MUCH.

Understand why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM7dCj7QWKs

[I Ratant]

I strive to be a pleasant, jerky atheist.
.
Didn't strive, but got there anyway...
Although some folks say I'm a nice guy.

[I Ratant]

Good sir, you expect too much, I am, after all, just a girl :confused:
.
My favorite opposite gender! :p

[Pedro De Mello]

Good sir, you expect too much, I am, after all, just a girl :confused:

A girl?

Using the Internet? :eek:

Get outta here... (You'll have to imagine Joe Pesci saying this, that's the intention..)

[tsig]

Oh, I feel such hatred for this "Pastor" and his "I'm a Christian Priest yet I am a modern guy" shtick.

I would bet 2000 bucks (and I'm not kidding) that if we were to test his blood we would fing cocaine. And I bet he has lots of "purifying sex" with young christian girls.

Or maybe not... but I need to think he does because I hate the person SO MUCH.

Understand why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM7dCj7QWKs

"Shut up and do what you're told" the mantra of all dictators.

[babbits]

Hi, Gal Sarge,

I responded to the post, not to the person, whom I do not know. So absolutely you did not offend me. By the way, I'm a she-person also.

Can I infer, then, that you do not fear the inferno?

If you don't, good for you. As my Christian daddy said, don't fear superstitious beings like demons. It's the live ones you gotta worry about.

[devnull]

Inferno? where?

[Aepervius]

Inferno? where?

In Dante.

[sgtbaker]

Hi, Gal Sarge,

I responded to the post, not to the person, whom I do not know. So absolutely you did not offend me. By the way, I'm a she-person also.

Can I infer, then, that you do not fear the inferno?

If you don't, good for you. As my Christian daddy said, don't fear superstitious beings like demons. It's the live ones you gotta worry about.

Oh my! What is this world coming to? Two women on the internet? Before you know it, we will all be reading and thinking independant of man. As per your question, I am an antheist and that first paragraph in the post to which you responded was intended to be a joke. I've actually heard similar arguments to that so I figured I would drag it out and make fun of it before someone actually attempted to use it.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Atheists have no sense of humor.

[sgtbaker]

Atheists have no sense of humor.

Hey! That's not funny!

[Marduk]

Hey! That's not funny!

It is if youre a nihilistic existentialist
:D

[sgtbaker]

It is if youre a nihilistic existentialist
:D

Good grief! Are you trying to trip me up with giant words?

[Beerina]

I'm pretty sure you can cure Unyielding Despair with a single Lesser Restoration or Dispel Magic, I forget which.

[sgtbaker]

I'm pretty sure you can cure Unyielding Despair with a single Lesser Restoration or Dispel Magic, I forget which.

I thought mental disabilities fall in the disease catagory; I recommend abolish disease ;)

[tsig]

I thought mental disabilities fall in the disease catagory; I recommend abolish disease ;)

You trying to put god out of a job? Without diseases how can he do miracle cures to confirm the faith of the faithful and confound the wicked?

Besides germs are god's creatures too.

[Beerina]

Look, high-level wizards get some kind of resurrection spell, I think, to say nothing of Wish. God's job is already going the way of the union assembly-line auto worker to the robots.

[MattC]

Need SoW for soul retrieval, lost it to camping atheists.

[Mark6]

I thought mental disabilities fall in the disease catagory; I recommend abolish disease ;)
It's "Cure Disease". Or wear a Disease Immunity item.

But I am fairly sure neither works against mental illnesses. For that you need Heal or Restoration. In some cases, Remove Curse.

[Steve001]

Atheists have no sense of humor.

Hey, I resemble that.

[Complexity]

Yet another thread whose title renders reading it unnecessary.

Just casting my vote against the title's sentiments.

Silliness abounds.