Syrian immam: Islam commands us to protect Judaism

[Thunder]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1143660.html

is this an indication of a thaw in Syrian-Israeli relations?

sign of things to come?

or will this man be shot in the head in 5 days by Hezbollah.

:confused:

[kerikiwi]

Well, that will really piss off the people who want to present Islam as an unmitigated evil.

[Slayhamlet]

This is pretty much a mainstream Islamic position. I don't see what's so special about it.

[Skeptic]

The problem with Islam is not that it is unmitigated evil, but that the bad guys call the shot -- mostly against other Muslims. As Parky notes, "Hizbullah kills this guy in a week" is, alas, a very realistic possiblity.

Check MEMRI's web site, which reports what the Arab media is broadcasting. On any give day, you will find that 50% of the reports are of the let's-butcher-the-Jews sort... but that the other 50% are about wanting reform in the Arab and Muslim world. Unfortunately we know who calls the shots.

[yairhol]

Syrian immam: Islam commands us to protect Judaism
Only not those Jews who live in Israel.

[gumboot]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1143660.html

is this an indication of a thaw in Syrian-Israeli relations?

sign of things to come?

or will this man be shot in the head in 5 days by Hezbollah.

:confused:


I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned.

Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust.

[r0ast_p0tat0es]

"If the Prophet Mohammed had asked me to deem Christians or Jews heretics, I would have deemed Mohammed himself a heretic," Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun, the Mufti of Syria, was quoted as telling a delegation of American academics visiting Damascus.

Hassoun, the leader of Syria's majority Sunni Muslim community, also told the delegates that Islam was a religion of peace, adding: "If Mohammed had commanded us to kill people, I would have told him he was not a prophet."

Holy crap, that's brave.

This was a "delegation of Americans", mind you. It's not like he was addressing his congregation.

[Skeptic]

I keep thinking that "Radical Islam" is a misnomer. The so-called "Radicals" are actually reactionaries -- wanting to move Islam as a whole back to the 8th century. It is people like this Imam who are the real radical Muslims.

[funk de fino]

I keep thinking that "Radical Islam" is a misnomer. The so-called "Radicals" are actually reactionaries -- wanting to move Islam as a whole back to the 8th century. It is people like this Imam who are the real radical Muslims.

Agree with your first point, disagree with your second.

[kerikiwi]

Only not those Jews who live in Israel.

Nope, he didn't say that.

[Skeptic]

Agree with your first point, disagree with your second.

I mean here "radical" in a positive sense -- this is the sort of radical change Islam does need.

[bigjelmapro]

"Was Moses of Middle Eastern or European descent? Was Jesus a Protestant or a Catholic? Was Mohammed Shi'ite or Sunni?"

Apparently he's trying to pull a quick one on us Westerner dhimmis.

As his address to the EU last year, I don't see this as much of anything besides a boatload of useless rhetoric. Not much different than the rhetoric heard in politics.

Any concrete solutions to provide? I haven't seen, heard or read any from this guy.

They are definitely different than the hate spewed from the Hamas HQ in Damascus, or Hezbollah in Lebanon, but as to its use is beyond me...

[Dragoonster]

The problem with Islam is not that it is unmitigated evil, but that the bad guys call the shot -- mostly against other Muslims. As Parky notes, "Hizbullah kills this guy in a week" is, alas, a very realistic possiblity.

Is it? Can you give examples of Hezbollah killing other progressive Imams? Or any radical Islamists doing that? I haven't heard of this but may be very ignorant.

[GreNME]

I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned.

Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust.

What you're describing here is a political fight taking place in nations like Syria (and Jordan and Egypt and Lebanon) between the more progressive factions and the more violent, reactionary ones. Yes, the assessment at this time is that the reactionary and violent ones currently have the upper hand due to volume and using the Israel/Palestine issue to cash in political capital. What this does, though, is change the face of the problems regarding "radical Islam" to being one less about religion and more about politics and diplomatic achievements (of which there has been few successes over the last 50-60 years), and it underscores why the Israel/Palestine conflict is a pretty big deal in terms of establishing a Mid-East the rest of the world can deal diplomatically with.

-----

Holy crap, that's brave.

This was a "delegation of Americans", mind you. It's not like he was addressing his congregation.

You're under the wrong impression if you believe that imams have "congregations" like a preacher or priest do. An imam is basically a religious scholar, not a preacher. That's why there are so many imams that seem to fancy making all sorts of statements publicly, and much of the media seems to mistakenly identify these guys as having more significance overall than they really have (much like fatwas).

[bigjelmapro]

GreNME, this guy holds the position of grand Mufti, not your run in the mill imam status. There's usually 1 grand Mufti per country, so his position does hold significance. His congregation at this point, whom he does hold measurable influence over, is all of the Syrian Sunni population, if not beyond these borders depending on how he's view in the Islamic uhmmah overall.

[GreNME]

GreNME, this guy holds the position of grand Mufti, not your run in the mill imam status. There's usually 1 grand Mufti per country, so his position does hold significance. His congregation at this point, whom he does hold measurable influence over, is all of the Syrian Sunni population, if not beyond these borders depending on how he's view in the Islamic uhmmah overall.

You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up.

[Dragoonster]

You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up.

Part of the importance is in American perception of the importance, considering a lot of the Arab world has been affected as much (or at least heavily) by the external force of the US as their internal forces. And considering the large-scale ignorance behind some US perceptions. If an Iranian imam said something that revolutionized Iranian society, that would be great for Iran. If one said something that revolutionized American perception of Iran/arabs/US foreign policy, even if through American misinterpretation of his statement or level of importance in Iran, that might be even better for Iran or the entire region.

[GreNME]

Part of the importance is in American perception of the importance, considering a lot of the Arab world has been affected as much (or at least heavily) by the external force of the US as their internal forces. And considering the large-scale ignorance behind some US perceptions. If an Iranian imam said something that revolutionized Iranian society, that would be great for Iran. If one said something that revolutionized American perception of Iran/arabs/US foreign policy, even if through American misinterpretation of his statement or level of importance in Iran, that might be even better for Iran or the entire region.

That's a good point. It also is unfortunate that more information about the growing Green Movement isn't getting attention outside of Iran, considering there are many outspoken members of that movement who have far more actual political capital and social influence than Hassoun.

[Undesired Walrus]

Why rely on what religion tells you? Is the Immam saying that if Islam commanded Muslims to destroy Judaism they should?

[bigjelmapro]

You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up.
Grand mufti has one per country. A vanilla mufti is a bit different. One cannot achieve the level of Grant Mufti without the support of the brunt of the Islamic uhmmah within that specific country. Within in these countries their influence would be great within the religious community.

Who are you referring to 'many people' here? Us Westerners/dhimmis or those that actually follow the teachings/statements/fatwas of Grand Muftis? If its the prior, I don't see how that's even relevant. We don't even understand or know the fatwas or overall teachings these Grand Muftis present other than the statements they make in English in public Western places.

[Thunder]

I don't think the Jews or the Muslims have a great track record when it comes to protecting each other. Muslims have destroyed many synagogues and Jews have destroyed many mosques.

This is why I pray that a big earthquake swallows all of Palestine.

:)

[GreNME]

Grand mufti has one per country. A vanilla mufti is a bit different. One cannot achieve the level of Grant Mufti without the support of the brunt of the Islamic uhmmah within that specific country. Within in these countries their influence would be great within the religious community.

Who are you referring to 'many people' here? Us Westerners/dhimmis or those that actually follow the teachings/statements/fatwas of Grand Muftis? If its the prior, I don't see how that's even relevant. We don't even understand or know the fatwas or overall teachings these Grand Muftis present other than the statements they make in English in public Western places.

I know what you're talking about, but I'm saying that these guys don't have the actual influence-- whether political or doctrinal/ecumenical-- that what you describe implies. They don't hold a public trust or have decrees which affect doctrinal behavior. Nine out of ten times when one of these muftis (or imams or ayatollahs or whatever) says something on an issue like this, the average, everyday Muslim is going to shrug and go about their daily lives and be no more or less pious for doing so. This is why you have such a breadth of different types of statements from scholars of all sorts on issues ranging from international politics to local news.

If it helps, compare it to how much actual influence a statement from the local diocese beginning with the spokesman saying "I believe..." would be to the Catholic faith. The structure isn't the same, but the level of import pretty much is.

[cwalner]

... and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes ...

So, evolution is a myth? Are you a closet creationist?

[yeah, out of context, but I could not resist]

[Thunder]

Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor.

so in some way, that quote is correct.

:D

[bigjelmapro]

I don't think the Jews or the Muslims have a great track record when it comes to protecting each other. Muslims have destroyed many synagogues and Jews have destroyed many mosques.

Moral equivalence. The latter bit is unfounded, but not surprising in your attempts to equate two different religions and their history to justify your ridiculous assertions.


This is why I pray that a big earthquake swallows all of Palestine.

Out of sight, out of mind. However, your obsessive behavior regarding this region would make it extremely difficult to do so on your part..

[bigjelmapro]

Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor.

so in some way, that quote is correct.

There's a Quranic verse regarding this allegation of equating Jews to apes and pigs. It has to do with those not observing the sabbath and has little to do with evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran.

[Whiplash]

Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor.

so in some way, that quote is correct.

:D


Why am I reminded of the scene in Inglourious Basterds where Col.Landa is describing how to "think like a Jew" based on their shared heritage with rats.

[GreNME]

There's a Quranic verse regarding this allegation of equating Jews to apes and pigs. It has to do with those not observing the sabbath and has little to do with evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran.

Cite the verse. I have a Koran right here, so I can verify it for you in Arabic and English. Be sure to check the verses before and after the ones you cite as well.

[bigjelmapro]

:D Who doesn't have a Quran? Got the Sales edition myself. Plenty of online editions as well, ie: http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

There's plenty of articles regarding this story of transformation of Jews to apes/pigs if they break the sabbath online. Here's one that combines the brunt of those verses:

Allah's special little apes and pigs (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/01/allahs_special_little_apes_and.html)

Does this reply have to do with me somehow stating that this is a farce and is not a common interpretation amongst those Muslim preachers who choose to apply these verses to the Jewish population?

And no absolutist rebuttals please.

[mikeyx]

I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned.

Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust.

so like theres a diversity there as much as christianity, go figure...

[kerikiwi]

... evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran.

It didn't? :confused:

[bigjelmapro]

Theory of evolution that is, unless Mohammed had a crystal ball and also claimed that Darwin was a true Muslim, as he did with Moses, Jesus and Alexander the Great to name a few.

[GreNME]

:D Who doesn't have a Quran? Got the Sales edition myself. Plenty of online editions as well, ie: http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

There's plenty of articles regarding this story of transformation of Jews to apes/pigs if they break the sabbath online. Here's one that combines the brunt of those verses:

Allah's special little apes and pigs (http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/01/allahs_special_little_apes_and.html)

Does this reply have to do with me somehow stating that this is a farce and is not a common interpretation amongst those Muslim preachers who choose to apply these verses to the Jewish population?

And no absolutist rebuttals please.

Ah, so you take the Christian-promoted interpretation (sans the open Christianity, of course) and expect that to be taken seriously? Read the passages mentioned in that article, and in every case you'll see that what's being explained is a punishment being carried out on "sinners" (regardless of what you or I consider sinful, obviously). This is (contextually) not much different than in the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament, where Jesus takes demons out of a possessed guy and puts them into a herd of swine. That's not only the more common interpretation, it's also what the vast majority of Muslims on the planet tend to believe. Taking radical militants who've injected politics into their interpretations and using that as if it were somehow the baseline on Muslim theology not only displays a staggering level of ignorance but also an overwhelming arrogance that making up your own interpretation and only accepting those that coincide with your preconceived notions seems like a rational analysis.

[MikeMangum]

Yes, the assessment at this time is that the reactionary and violent ones currently have the upper hand due to volume and using the Israel/Palestine issue to cash in political capital. What this does, though, is change the face of the problems regarding "radical Islam" to being one less about religion and more about politics...

The problem with that assessment is that Islam is religion AND politics. There is no seperating the two in Islam. The Caliph is both the head of state and the high priest, with complete secular and religious authority. That's why it is possible for a nation to have the Quran as it's constitution.

[GreNME]

The problem with that assessment is that Islam is religion AND politics. There is no seperating the two in Islam. The Caliph is both the head of state and the high priest, with complete secular and religious authority. That's why it is possible for a nation to have the Quran as it's constitution.

http://image.grenme.com/thread/trekwtf.jpg

That is certainly a problem with the assessment I'm criticizing, but not with my own. I don't know if you realize it, but the US Supreme Court has both Moses and Muhammad represented on it's courthouse as influential lawmakers.

The problem is that this fake interpretation about what Islam supposedly thinks of Jews and Christians takes a foreign concept and constructs its own model based on Western concepts and assumes that this is how Muslims think. It makes as much sense as accepting pre-Rosetta Stone interpretations of Egyptian hieroglyphs as factual translation-- it's just plain incorrect and creates a caricature.