Racism in Israel exposed [Archive]

ZARDOZ

20th January 2010, 08:13 AM

Well isn't that a silly law. Hopefully it will get changed.

But at least it isn't the as racist and medieval as the law the Palestinian Authority passed which sentences you to death for selling any land to jews.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1081813.html

2009 - A Palestinian military court has sentenced a man to death by hanging for selling land to an Israeli company.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562884554&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

2009 - The Palestinian Authority has issued yet another warning to Palestinians against selling their homes or properties to Jews, saying those who violate the order would be accused of "high treason" - a charge that carries the death penalty.

Just a heads up that I am not deflecting from the lame Israeli law which-should-be-changed, just pointing out that at least the Israelis aren't sentenced people to death over land sales.

Thunder

20th January 2010, 08:22 AM

I haven't read the Jerusalem Post in over a decade but I remember thinking it was nationalist, right-winged Likud mouthpiece.
Fox News sans foreskin, so to speak.

Maybe they've gotten better.

i must say, this is the most moderate article I have EVER read at the JPost.

and yes, the PA was wrong to issue the death penalty to anyone who sold land to a Jew. but understand, land sold to a Jew is land sold to Israel.

Vorticity

20th January 2010, 09:14 AM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1263147932330&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Israeli law allows Jews to reclaim property lost after the 1948 war, but Arabs cannot.

How do they determine who is a Jew and who is an Arab?

I'm completely serious.

Thunder

20th January 2010, 10:29 AM

How do they determine who is a Jew and who is an Arab?

I'm completely serious.

believe it or not, Israeli i.d. cards have your religion specified.

KingMerv00

20th January 2010, 10:38 AM

crickets are too be expected. this is a very difficult topic for many people.

I don't think it is a "difficult topic". I think we are just sick of the middle east.

believe it or not, Israeli i.d. cards have your religion specified.

"Arab" is a religion now?

Vic Vega

20th January 2010, 11:57 AM

crickets are too be expected. this is a very difficult topic for many people.

Personally, I think it's because everyone is tired of your topics.

Eyeron

20th January 2010, 12:23 PM

Personally, I think it's because everyone is tired of your topics.

This.

Thunder

20th January 2010, 12:26 PM

I don't think it is a "difficult topic". I think we are just sick of the middle east.

"Arab" is a religion now?

well, I am not sure what the id cards say, but I am pretty sure they distinguish between Jews and Arabs or Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

A Jew cannot be an Arab.

The Fool

20th January 2010, 01:59 PM

well, I am not sure what the id cards say, but I am pretty sure they distinguish between Jews and Arabs or Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

A Jew cannot be an Arab.
In Israel it is compulsory for the government to record if you are a Jew or not.
The ID cards originally did state specifically if you were a Jew or not. But that proved a bit controversial so it had to be indicated on the card in a more subtle manner. Your date of birth is in Hebrew if you are a jew....

Tailgater

20th January 2010, 02:04 PM

Personally, I think it's because everyone is tired of your topics.

Is there more than one?

Thunder

20th January 2010, 02:25 PM

it would be kinda sad if EVERY one of my topics was about Israel.

even if 75% of my topics was about Israel, that would be sad.

Eyeron

20th January 2010, 02:43 PM

Is there more than one?

No there's only the one. And that is Israel is evil and everybody in it is racist and Arabs are not.

Most people on this forum knows its just a pack of lies and things are more complicated than that.

Undesired Walrus

20th January 2010, 02:47 PM

awwwwww.....don't be like that man!!!!

Just telling the truth (albiet exaggerating the number of posts). You'll also find people won't want to seriously respond if you continue with forgoing punctuation. It looks like disrespect.

Thunder

20th January 2010, 02:51 PM

No there's only the one. And that is Israel is evil and everybody in it is racist and Arabs are not.

nice strawman. do you buy your straw by the bail or by cubic yard?

The Fool

20th January 2010, 02:59 PM

Most people on this forum knows its just a pack of lies and things are more complicated than that.
Things are more complicated than that? Is that the line I use when I want to forgive discrimination based on race?

Thunder

20th January 2010, 03:00 PM

i should hope that most people on this forum would not accept such an immature logic as: Israel all evil, all Israelis are racists, and all Arabs are kind and gentle.

good thing I have never argued such nonsense.

and for the sake of it, I am willing to bet that the range of topics that I have made over the years is perhaps more diverse than anyone else on JREF.

Darth Rotor

20th January 2010, 07:53 PM

Things are more complicated than that? Is that the line I use when I want to forgive discrimination based on race?
Semites discriminating against Semites, how is that racism? :confused::confused:

You knew that was coming, of course, being a veteran of these badminton matches.

Got any new moves, or just the same old serve and volley?

DR

Darth Rotor

20th January 2010, 07:54 PM

i should hope that most people on this forum would not accept such an immature logic as:
Anything posted by parky76.

Not smiling when I say that.

Raise your game. You are a millstone to this forum.

DR

Redtail

20th January 2010, 07:58 PM

Anything posted by parky76.

Not smiling when I say that.

Raise your game. You are a millstone to this forum.

DR

Must... Resist... Matza... Joke...

Darth Rotor

20th January 2010, 08:40 PM

Must... Resist... Matza... Joke...
*sith voice*

Give in to the Dark Side of the Force

bigjelmapro

21st January 2010, 01:21 AM

Your date of birth is in Hebrew if you are a jew....
Looking at my teudat tzeut, aka ID card, right now. Don't see this. I've also seen ID cards of Israeli Arabs whilst in queue at government offices, they are the same as mine, a number for DOB.

Where did you manage to pull this piece of fiction from?

bigjelmapro

21st January 2010, 01:22 AM

Skeptic

21st January 2010, 01:36 AM

Skeptic

21st January 2010, 01:37 AM

Well, apparently Israel is also discriminating against Jews. So what's new....

ie 'State discriminating against Jews' (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=165351)

In Israel we hate everybody including ourselves ;)

Yes, but who do we discriminate more against? I want an end for discrimination in discrimination!

The Fool

21st January 2010, 03:21 AM

Looking at my teudat tzeut, aka ID card, right now. Don't see this. I've also seen ID cards of Israeli Arabs whilst in queue at government offices, they are the same as mine, a number for DOB.

Where did you manage to pull this piece of fiction from?
Does your ID have a Hebrew birthdate?

come on, get with the program. Even "skeptic" is not attempting denial.

The Fool

21st January 2010, 03:24 AM

Semites discriminating against Semites, how is that racism? :confused::confused:

You knew that was coming, of course, being a veteran of these badminton matches.

Got any new moves, or just the same old serve and volley?

DR
sigh...its badminton because people bring up the same apologia....like yours. "They are the same race" There can be no racism.

I take it you dismiss all Arab discrimination against Jews too?

The Fool

21st January 2010, 03:26 AM

Yes, but who do we discriminate more against? I want an end for discrimination in discrimination!

Here's an Idea...How about Israel gets over having to classify its citizens? Israel wants to be a modern democracy....please adopt the customs and practices first.

The Fool

21st January 2010, 03:37 AM

In theory, it is a legal requirement for all Israeli citizens to always carry an ID card. In the past this law was used against Arab Israelies during the military rule time (The "Mimshal Tzvai") which was canceled in the 60s. Today, the law is a dead letter and rarely if ever applied to anyone.

so you don't need an ID card any more?

There used to be a definition of "ethnicity" (Leum) in the Israeli ID card -- there were 135 recognized nationalities, "Jew" and "Arab" being two of them -- but since 2003 there is no definition of nationality in the ID. Today, the only difference between Jews and non-Jews is that Jews have their Hebrew DOB printed as well.

yes....splitting your population into 135 categories was seen to be not a good Idea anymore....so it was changed to only two categories....Jews and others unspecified.

What we see here is the usual situation in Israel: was there discrimination in Israeli IDs? Yes. Is there still discrimination? Well, if you consider the very fact that a DOB is printed in the Hebrew calendar for Jews only as "discrimination", then yes. But certainly the trajectory is from a lot of discrimination to less and less, in IDs as well as in most other fields in Israel.

yes, I know....you are getting there. You could end it tomorrow....even today....but its best to just keep the trajectory in the right direction isn't it.

Whatever discrimination remains in the IDs today is purely theoretical. I, for one, wouldn't mind canceling it completely and have identical IDs with no Hebrew birth date for all Israelies. I doubt many Israelies feel strongly about this.

How about ending the recording of it by the government....are you in favor of that too? Or just finally removing it from the card?

I find it hard to imagine in what way can this DOB difference be used for discrimination. Some people will not hire Arabs because they dislike them? You bet. But if you do, would you need that line in the ID to "smoke out" some "secret" Arab? Wouldn't the fact that so-and-so is called, say, "Muhammad Al-Baradi" be a bit of a hint?

The ability of Racists to persist in their desire to practice racism should be regarded as a reason not to bother making it harder for them?

To try and "hide" in this way, someone who is "really" an Arab but wants to look like a Jew in their ID should take a Jewish-sounding name, change the name of their spouse, children, and parents (who appear on the ID as well) to a Jewish-sounding name, get completely rid of any Arab accent, and, I suppose, vote for Kach. But if someone is willing to do that, they might as well officially convert to Judaism and get the desired(?) Hebrew date in their ID and get it over with.
yes it would be difficult. But ending racial discrimination is never easy. Its so damn attractive to the advantaged group. Of course the answer is to eliminate the need for an Israeli citizen to have any reason to want to pretend to be something they are not eh?

Thunder

21st January 2010, 04:24 AM

back to the OP: can anyone think of a rational justification for allowing Jews to reclaim lost property, but not Arabs?

hmmm?

bigjelmapro

21st January 2010, 06:34 AM

Does your ID have a Hebrew birthdate?

come on, get with the program. Even "skeptic" is not attempting denial.
So you are going along with this fictional claim.

Wasn't aware that Hebrew had a different numerical system, as in 0 through 9, which is the DOB format, right next to Hebrew and Arabic translation for DOB.

Or are you somehow claiming to see something different on my ID card? Something invisible perhaps?

bigjelmapro

21st January 2010, 06:41 AM

What we see here is the usual situation in Israel: was there discrimination in Israeli IDs? Yes. Is there still discrimination? Well, if you consider the very fact that a DOB is printed in the Hebrew calendar for Jews only as "discrimination", then yes. But certainly the trajectory is from a lot of discrimination to less and less, in IDs as well as in most other fields in Israel.
I would use the keyword 'was' here since this very fact is confusing TF, which isn't difficult. Today its a number. Simple.

How the past use of using the Hebrew calendar is a form of discrimination is beyond me. How the use of the Gregorian, Hijri, or the Haluach Haivri calendar in different countries is discrimination is a strange angle.

Skeptic

21st January 2010, 06:45 AM

I would use the keyword 'was' here since this very fact is confusing TF, which isn't difficult. Today its a number. Simple.

That might be. My ID is a few years old, and still had both the date in numbers and the one in Hebrew calendar. Perhaps you have a new ID, and in the meantime they removed this last vestige of distinction between Jews and non-Jews on the ID? I won't be surprised -- certainly the trajectory is towards less and less difference.

Thunder

21st January 2010, 07:00 AM

a true democracy would not differentiate between its citizens. they all pay taxes, they should all be treated equally.

Beerina

21st January 2010, 08:11 AM

There is no shortage of people critical of Israel on this forum. I just think people see the 1,287,341st parky thread about Israel or Jews and just get a bit bored. Tone the thread count down mate.

And I'd rather be an Arab in Israel than an Arab in any of the surrounding countries housing nearly a billion people under dictatorships. So you'll pardon me if I don't focus on minutia in the best country there.

Vorticity

21st January 2010, 08:38 AM

well, I am not sure what the id cards say, but I am pretty sure they distinguish between Jews and Arabs or Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

A Jew cannot be an Arab.

Well, however the ID cards distinguish, this doesn't actually answer my original question:

How do they determine who is a Jew, Arab, or whatever?

Thunder

21st January 2010, 08:42 AM

Well, however the ID cards distinguish, this doesn't actually answer my original question:

How do they determine who is a Jew, Arab, or whatever?

I don't know, they send out the Gestapo to investigate the ethnic and religious history of all citizens?

;)

The Fool

21st January 2010, 03:20 PM

So you are going along with this fictional claim.

Wasn't aware that Hebrew had a different numerical system, as in 0 through 9, which is the DOB format, right next to Hebrew and Arabic translation for DOB.

Or are you somehow claiming to see something different on my ID card? Something invisible perhaps?
LOL....

we will put aside the fact that you want to deny something everyone in the world can see...let me know if the selective vision ever improves.

even "skeptic" finds it too hard to deny what he sees on his Id card. Unlike me, he is willing to accept your claim about what you see on your card. Personally I have much less faith in your integrity.

Can I ask one more time? Is your DOB on your ID card shown in the Hebrew calendar? Is that a reeeeely hard question?

If it is, you are regarded by Isarel as Jewish. Pretty simple. Lets see how you go confusing that simple issue.

bigjelmapro

21st January 2010, 11:46 PM

Whinge whinge, can't prove another one of your fictional claims. Still trying to find an angle on how printing the DOB in the past is a form of discrimination against Gregorian calendar followers? ;)

bigjelmapro

21st January 2010, 11:50 PM

I don't know, they send out the Gestapo to investigate the ethnic and religious history of all citizens?

;)
Do you really go by another standard here?

You accuse people of deflecting from an OP, yet you deflect in every single one of them.

You accuse people of ad hominem fallacies, yet you commit this very same fallacy in every single thread.

You accuse people of invoking Godwin's law, yet you invoke it in every single thread.

And somehow you're surprised that no one in this entire forum takes you seriously, besides your lacky TF? Priceless.

The Fool

22nd January 2010, 03:03 AM

Whinge whinge, can't prove another one of your fictional claims. Still trying to find an angle on how printing the DOB in the past is a form of discrimination against Gregorian calendar followers? ;)
no....

The "fictional claim" is there on the ID card for the whole world to see.

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Teudat-Zehut

There have been some fierce legal battles about identifying the nationality of the bearer in the Israeli Identity card. As of 2005 , the nationality has not been printed; a line of eight asterisks appears instead. In the past, the nationality of Jewish Israelis was indicated as "Jewish", rather than "Israeli". In 2002 , the Supreme Court of Israel instructed the Interior Ministry to indicate the nationality of people who underwent a Reform conversion as Jews. The Minister at the time, Eli Yishai, a member of Shas, an Orthodox party, decided he would drop the nationality category altogether, rather than list as Jews people whom he considered non-Jews. In 2004 the Supreme Court denied a citizen's petition to reinstate this indicator, stating that the field in the document was meant for statistical collection only, and not as a declarative statement of Judaism. Currently, the only way to determine whether an Identity card belongs to a Jew is to check whether the Hebrew date of birth appears in addition to the civil date.

(bolding mine) still denying it?....this is hilarious. Is it time to start attempting to confuse what my simple statement of fact was?

to avoid confusion I will quote it for you..

"Your date of birth is in Hebrew if you are a jew...."

how are you going to spin this one? Do you have your Hebrew Birthdate indicated on your ID? Would you recognise your birthdate if you saw it written in Hebrew?

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 05:50 AM

And somehow you're surprised that no one in this entire forum takes you seriously,

I am? Since when?

when is the last time I accused someone of Godwining? when is the last time i complained that folks don't take me seriously?

you make me laugh.

:confused:

FireGarden

22nd January 2010, 11:16 AM

even "skeptic" finds it too hard to deny what he sees on his Id card. Unlike me, he is willing to accept your claim about what you see on your card. Personally I have much less faith in your integrity.

According to wiki, there is an opt-out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teudat_Zehut#Question_of_ethnicity

An amendment to the Israeli registration law approved by the Knesset in 2007 determines that a Jewish person may ask to remove the Hebrew date from his entry, and consequently from his Identity Card.

Currently, whether a citizen is Jewish or non-Jewish can in some cases be determined by checking whether the Hebrew date of birth appears in addition to the civil date. The state's registration which serves as the basis for the data in the Identity Cards still indicates the ethnicity of each person, and this information is available upon request in certain circumstances determined by the registration law.

ZARDOZ

22nd January 2010, 12:11 PM

I wonder. Is it really that earth-shattering if jews have hebrew dates on their IDs and Arabs don't? Really? Is a hebrew date on an ID that important?

If you're looking for racism look at Sunni on Shiite violence, or the Indian caste system, or how they keep Palestinians in virtual concentration camps without the right to work or vote in Lebanon.. now that's in-your-face racism.

Eyeron

22nd January 2010, 12:30 PM

Zardoz, it's only racism if Israel does it, and anybody else just can't be racist if they do it. It's also expected of anybody else to be monsters but Israel are the good guys and so must be held to higher standards of behavior.

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 12:42 PM

Zardoz, it's only racism if Israel does it, and anybody else just can't be racist if they do it.

do Lebanese ID cards identify who is a Christian and Muslim?

do Iraqi ID cards identify Sunni, Shia, and Kurd?

do Egyptian ID cards identify Muslim and Coptic Christian?

ZARDOZ

22nd January 2010, 01:03 PM

do Lebanese ID cards identify who is a Christian and Muslim?

do Iraqi ID cards identify Sunni, Shia, and Kurd?

do Egyptian ID cards identify Muslim and Coptic Christian?

I don't know the answer to that.

But in the big picture of life does it really matter if an Israeli ID identifies religion? There are such huge injustices going on in the world - such as the Sudanese government running the native Sudanese people out of the country, Palestinians living in virtual concentration camps in Lebanon, the crap going on in Liberia, or how about the recent African migrants literally run out of town in Rosarno Italy? Somehow a calendar date on an Israeli ID seems trivial in comparison.

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 02:39 PM

Israel's Immigrant Absorption Minister: "We are racist. Israel is a very racist society."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1263147950755&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

ProbeX

22nd January 2010, 02:48 PM

"Arab" is a religion now?

Right - and herein lies one of the problems approaching this issue. "Arab" is not a religion, and "Jews" are not an ethnicity. That can make it a little awkward to speak in terms of a religious and/or ethnic conflict in the middle east sometimes. Which makes me want to discuss this less too (my head gets to hurting :p ).

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 03:08 PM

"Arab" is not a religion, and "Jews" are not an ethnicity.

i think for the most part, the Jews themselves have decided to consider ourselves to be one single ethnic group.

of course, especially before the Holocaust and the formation of the USSR, Jews were actually several ethnic groups, so much has changed and soo much ethnic melting has taken place in Israel, the USA, and Europe, that for the most part, we have become pretty much one group.

Skeptic

22nd January 2010, 03:17 PM

Sigh.

Politician lobbying for some group saying in a newspaper interview country is "racist" against said group is not the same as proof it is.

Otherwise, you'd have to agree the USA, England, and just about every other western country are also "very racist", because it would take about a millisecond to find some local politician who makes the same accusations about these countries.

ProbeX

22nd January 2010, 03:25 PM

i think for the most part, the Jews themselves have decided to consider ourselves to be one single ethnic group.

of course, especially before the Holocaust and the formation of the USSR, Jews were actually several ethnic groups, so much has changed and soo much ethnic melting has taken place in Israel, the USA, and Europe, that for the most part, we have become pretty much one group.

You are tempting me to further unravel this thread but I'll just leave it at this: certain people of various ethnicities who worship as Jews, are of course free to call themselves "of one ethnicity", even if it's factually incorrect.

... Just like some Muslims of various ethnicities can claim "Islam" as an ethnicity (erroneously), because the father worships as a Muslim, when it is all simply a religion. Fact is, Jews are a religious group, not a single, consolidated ethnic group, no matter how badly some of them wish they were. Even the emotionalism of a holocaust doesn't create a single ethnicity out of many.

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 03:27 PM

Fact is, Jews are a religious group, not a single, consolidated ethnic group, no matter how badly some of them wish they were.

actually, Jews are not one single religious group.

there are Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox. There are modern Orthodox and traditional Orthodox. There are many different Hasidic groups. There are Sephardim, Ethiopian, and other forms of Judaism.
There are Karaites.
:)

ProbeX

22nd January 2010, 03:29 PM

... of course, especially before the Holocaust and the formation of the USSR, Jews were actually several ethnic groups, so much has changed and soo much ethnic melting has taken place in Israel, the USA, and Europe, that for the most part, we have become pretty much one group.

Forgot to add: your "melting pot" lacks a bunch of ingredients. What you describe above is a Eurocentric view of what a Jew is. There are people in all parts of the world who are Jews, including Blacks, Latinos, and Asians. All the more reason to stop erroneously referring to Jews as if they are a single ethnic group.

ProbeX

22nd January 2010, 03:30 PM

actually, Jews are not one single religious group.

there are Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox. There are modern Orthodox and traditional Orthodox. There are many different Hasidic groups. There are Sephardim, Ethiopian, and other forms of Judaism.
There are Karaites.
:)

Yes, Judaism is a single religion. What you have described are variations within it.

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 03:34 PM

Yes, Judaism is a single religion. What you have described are variations within it.

would u also not agree that Israel has become a Jewish melting pot?

i don't think 3rd generation of jewish immigrants from poland, morocco, iran, and france, really distinguish themselves by country of origin anymore.

same in the USA. the only Jews in the USA who identify by country of origin are immigrants and children of, like the Syrians, Iranians, and Buhkara Jews.

ProbeX

22nd January 2010, 04:17 PM

would u also not agree that Israel has become a Jewish melting pot?

Well I'll take this as an invitation to further derail your thread, since you're the OP ;)

Israel is just an ethnic melting pot, period, just like many countries these days. There are people from everywhere in Israel (and not just people who self-describe as Jews).

i don't think 3rd generation of jewish immigrants from poland, morocco, iran, and france, really distinguish themselves by country of origin anymore.Jewish people would have no reason to discuss ethnicity (in the context of religion) to begin with, since Judaism is a religion, just a set of beliefs and behaviors ... just like there's no reason to expect Christians or Muslims or Pagans to discuss ethnicity in the context of their religions either.

same in the USA. the only Jews in the USA who identify by country of origin are immigrants and children of, like the Syrians, Iranians, and Buhkara Jews.Not sure how you know this for sure, unless you're in on everyone's conversations. But either which way, the fact is that religion and ethnicity are two separate entities, even if some people, in their state of high emotion, attempt to conflate them.

WildCat

22nd January 2010, 06:52 PM

do Lebanese ID cards identify who is a Christian and Muslim?
Yes, and even which denomination.

But as of early last year they could opt out of having that info on their ID cards. It seems the various militias used them in the war to determine who should be killed.

eta: link (http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2009/02/lebanon_makes_t.php)

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 06:55 PM

Yes, and even which denomination.

my co-worker is Lebanese. I will find out if this is true.

WildCat

22nd January 2010, 06:57 PM

Right - and herein lies one of the problems approaching this issue. "Arab" is not a religion, and "Jews" are not an ethnicity. That can make it a little awkward to speak in terms of a religious and/or ethnic conflict in the middle east sometimes. Which makes me want to discuss this less too (my head gets to hurting :p ).
Jews can be a religious group, or an ethnic group.

WildCat

22nd January 2010, 06:58 PM

my co-worker is Lebanese. I will find out if this is true.
Because the link to a Lebanese source isn't good enough for you? :rolleyes:

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 07:02 PM

Because the link to a Lebanese source isn't good enough for you? :rolleyes:

I do not trust you. sorry.

i will also ask him if the Lebanese govt. gives him more rights or less rights, as a Lebanese Christian.

WildCat

22nd January 2010, 07:12 PM

I do not trust you. sorry.

i will also ask him if the Lebanese govt. gives him more rights or less rights, as a Lebanese Christian.
Do you realize that's a reprint of a BBC article? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7906125.stm

But I'm sure your co-worker is more trustworthy than the beeb...

applecorped

22nd January 2010, 07:20 PM

They're all racist!!! Racism - It's worse then Global Warming!!!

Thunder

22nd January 2010, 07:24 PM

But I'm sure your co-worker is more trustworthy than the beeb...

his passport and ID card are undeniable.

ProbeX

22nd January 2010, 08:05 PM

Jews can be a religious group, or an ethnic group.

Nope, just a religious group.

WildCat

22nd January 2010, 08:52 PM

Nope, just a religious group.
No, it's both. Where did you get the idea it's only a religion?

The Fool

22nd January 2010, 11:26 PM

I don't know the answer to that.

But in the big picture of life does it really matter if an Israeli ID identifies religion? There are such huge injustices going on in the world - such as the Sudanese government running the native Sudanese people out of the country, Palestinians living in virtual concentration camps in Lebanon, the crap going on in Liberia, or how about the recent African migrants literally run out of town in Rosarno Italy? Somehow a calendar date on an Israeli ID seems trivial in comparison.
discrimination based on ethnicity should be condemned wherever and whenever it occurs...agree? Disagree?

Skeptic

23rd January 2010, 12:11 AM

Yes, and even which denomination.

But as of early last year they could opt out of having that info on their ID cards. It seems the various militias used them in the war to determine who should be killed.

To nobody's particular surprise, there was not a word -- not a thought -- not a breath -- not a hint -- not the least concern about that from the usual "Israel is racist" "human rights" crowd.

But we all know why: it's because they "hold Israel to a higher standard". Which seems to mean a combination of blaming Israel for every trivial thing, while ignoring Arab atrocities against their own people -- because, after all, what can you expect from such savages?

Skeptic

23rd January 2010, 12:14 AM

The Fool

23rd January 2010, 12:26 AM

To nobody's particular surprise, there was not a word -- not a thought -- not a breath -- not a hint -- not the least concern about that from the usual "Israel is racist" "human rights" crowd.

Because you lack the courage to name those that you criticize its difficult to demonstrate the fact that you are wrong....but hey, thats why you don't name names isn't it.

But we all know why: it's because they "hold Israel to a higher standard". Which seems to mean a combination of blaming Israel for every trivial thing, while ignoring Arab atrocities against their own people -- because, after all, what can you expect from such savages?

Guess what son....I can only remember a few instances of people using the word "savages" on this forum. You put the word in the mouths of a lot of people and groups that you lack the courage to name. While using the word yourself to describe Arabs. actually it was "bloodthirsty backward savages" wasn't it? but whose splitting hairs eh?

FireGarden

23rd January 2010, 03:25 AM

do Lebanese ID cards identify who is a Christian and Muslim?

Lebanon's politics is filled with the need to tell the difference between Christian/Muslim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Lebanon

The President, [must be] a Maronite Christian;
The Prime Minister, a Sunni Muslim, and
The Speaker of the Parliament, a Shi'a Muslim.

Would you regard that as ideal for a country which calls itself a democracy?

FireGarden

23rd January 2010, 03:54 AM

Sigh.

Politician lobbying for some group saying in a newspaper interview country is "racist" against said group is not the same as proof it is.

The article quotes a recent survey:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1263147950755&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

In a recent survey, Israelis were asked which sector of the population they would most like to have as neighbors. The results gave veteran Israelis the top grade, followed by new immigrants from the US, immigrants from France, immigrants from the former Soviet Union and lastly immigrants from Ethiopia. The same results were found when people were asked which population group they would be happy to have their children go to school with, and also which people they would like their children to marry.

It talks about the attitudes of the people, not government policy.

There is, also, a mention of civil union policy. But, as it's coming from the point of view of Israel Beiteinu, I don't think that's about mixed marriage in the sense its been discussed before on this forum. eg:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=132826&page=3
and:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=124658
where it's pointed out that Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese also have to go to Cyprus to get a civil marriage. (The ID debate is in that thread, too!)

Otherwise, you'd have to agree the USA, England, and just about every other western country are also "very racist", because it would take about a millisecond to find some local politician who makes the same accusations about these countries.

And how would being able to do this shed light on what is happening in Israel? Of course there is racism in Britain. Whether I would agree to "very", I'm not sure. I would guess it varies from place to place.

Google turned this up, regarding Britain:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/race-special-racism-in-britain-2007-437287.html

You may also have noticed some debate on this forum after the BNP got some results in elections, and when Griffin was on Question Time.

WildCat

23rd January 2010, 06:42 AM

Lebanon's politics is filled with the need to tell the difference between Christian/Muslim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Lebanon

Would you regard that as ideal for a country which calls itself a democracy?
No, I call that backwards and despicable.

Thunder

23rd January 2010, 08:36 AM

Would you regard that as ideal for a country which calls itself a democracy?

ideal? no.

but for whatever reasons, they felt such an religious and ethnic division for power sharing was necessary to keep everyone happy.

the issue is equal rights for all Israeli citizens. which is fundamentally lacking.

Sporanox

23rd January 2010, 12:32 PM

In a recent survey, Israelis were asked which sector of the population they would most like to have as neighbors. The results gave veteran Israelis the top grade, followed by new immigrants from the US, immigrants from France, immigrants from the former Soviet Union and lastly immigrants from Ethiopia. The same results were found when people were asked which population group they would be happy to have their children go to school with, and also which people they would like their children to marry.

Isn't that a bit of a loaded question if there's no "don't care" option?

ProbeX

23rd January 2010, 01:29 PM

No, it's both. Where did you get the idea it's only a religion?

Where's your evidence that being a Jew is genetic?

... And please be very, very specific (ex: include valid citations). There is an unfortunate tendency for certain special interest groups to take info based on genetic testing and misinterpret the findings.

Thunder

23rd January 2010, 01:31 PM

Where's your evidence that being a Jew is genetic?

... And please be very, very specific (ex: include valid citations). There is an unfortunate tendency for certain special interest groups to take info based on genetic testing and misinterpret the findings.

there are certain haplotypes that certain groups of Jews have more frequently then other ethnicities. but there is certainly no genes that ONLY Jews possess.

and it is impossible to know for sure if someone is a Jew, based on an analysis of their DNA.

ProbeX

23rd January 2010, 01:44 PM

there are certain haplotypes that certain groups of Jews have more frequently then other ethnicities. but there is certainly no genes that ONLY Jews possess.

and it is impossible to know for sure if someone is a Jew, based on an analysis of their DNA.

Wrong, there are certain haplotypes that certain ethnic groups have, wherein it just so happens some or most of their people (certainly NOT ALL) have chosen to adopt Judaism. Unless each of them is somehow born a worshipping "Jew", there is no genetic component to being a Jew. It is simply a chosen behavior.

Those people are no more "genetically Jewish" than Italians are "genetically Catholic" because the majority of Italians (who have similar haplotypes) have a lot of people who just so happen to worship as Catholics.

There is a correlation but it certainly does not conform to any definition of a "genetic Jew". No offense, but the idea is just silly on its surface. People aren't "born into" a set of religious behaviors. Judaism is a set of religious beliefs and behaviors. There is nothing more to it.

WildCat

23rd January 2010, 01:48 PM

Where's your evidence that being a Jew is genetic?
What on earth made you think that ethnicity is necessarily related to genetics?

ProbeX

23rd January 2010, 01:55 PM

If I were to get genetically tested, it's almost certain I'd be found to carry the gene common to the group of Eastern Europeans labeled as "Ashkenazi". And I'm agnostic, not a Jew. I do not believe, worship, no observances, no celebrations ... even though there's a lot of cool things about Judaism IMO, and many of my family and friends are Jews.

All my test results would tell me is I am a descendent of a group of Eastern Europeans, many of whom likely chose to worship as Jews, some of whom didn't. I am one of those Eastern Europeans who chose not to worship as a Jew.

ProbeX

23rd January 2010, 02:19 PM

What on earth made you think that ethnicity is necessarily related to genetics?

The title of the thread concerns race and discrimination, which generally speaks to discrimination based on common genetic heritage and the accompanying stereotypical phenotypes. You can only apply the word "ethnicity" to Judaism if you use the definition that includes the qualifier assumed group identity (rather than genetically evident). Anyone of course is free to assume anything, but it doesn't necessarily stand up to reality.

Saying someone is ethnically or genetically "Jewish" is like saying someone who is Italian or Haitian or Irish or Filipino is ethnically or genetically Catholic because of the high correlation between each group's common haplotype/s and the religion many of them choose to share.

WildCat

23rd January 2010, 03:11 PM

The title of the thread concerns race and discrimination, which generally speaks to discrimination based on common genetic heritage and the accompanying stereotypical phenotypes.[/ You can only apply the word "ethnicity" to Judaism if you use the definition that includes the qualifier assumed group identity (rather than genetically evident). Anyone of course is free to assume anything, but it doesn't necessarily stand up to reality.
You said " "Jews" are not an ethnicity", with "Jews" in scare quotes for some reason.

They are in fact an ethnicity, and ethnicity doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with race or genetics. Bosnians and Serbs, for example, are distinct ethnic groups even though they share nearly identical genetics and even language.

Saying someone is ethnically or genetically "Jewish" is like saying someone who is Italian or Haitian or Irish or Filipino is ethnically or genetically Catholic because of the high correlation between each group's common haplotype/s and the religion many of them choose to share.
There you go aqgain, confusing ethnicity with genetics... :rolleyes:

FireGarden

24th January 2010, 04:20 AM

ideal? no.

but for whatever reasons, they felt such an religious and ethnic division for power sharing was necessary to keep everyone happy.

Is "felt to be necessary" the only way you describe it, Parky? Lots of people have reasons to do the things they do. Doesn't mean they're doing what's best.

the issue is equal rights for all Israeli citizens. which is fundamentally lacking.

You asked a question about Lebanon and received answers which were to the point.

Thunder

24th January 2010, 07:11 AM

An ethnic group can be diverse. Gaelic people can be considered a single ethnicity, with several sub-groups (Irish, Scottish, Manx, Welch, Brittany, etc.)

Same with Slavs. Why not Jews?

ProbeX

24th January 2010, 10:45 AM

You said " "Jews" are not an ethnicity", with "Jews" in scare quotes for some reason.

Should have quoted "born a Jew" in that sentence and not just "Jew". SFTC. Some people act like someone can be born "Jewish" and I disagree. Some people make up silly rules like "You are only Jewish if your mother (or your father) is Jewish". There's a similar silly belief among some that one's father must have been Muslim in order for the child to be Muslim. And that's one prominent example of some people treating religious belief systems as if they are genetic inheritances (which they call an ethnic assignment).

They are in fact an ethnicity, and ethnicity doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with race or genetics. Bosnians and Serbs, for example, are distinct ethnic groups even though they share nearly identical genetics and even language.Tell that to those Jews and Muslims who think you are only Jewish or Muslim if one of your parents is/was (otherwise you must convert). That places the definition squarely in the realm of quasi-genetics.

ProbeX

24th January 2010, 10:47 AM

An ethnic group can be diverse. Gaelic people can be considered a single ethnicity, with several sub-groups (Irish, Scottish, Manx, Welch, Brittany, etc.)

Same with Slavs. Why not Jews?

Please see my post above.

Thunder

24th January 2010, 11:28 AM

if Jews thought that Jewishness was purely a genetic thing, we would equally honor maternal and paternal descent.

WildCat

24th January 2010, 12:25 PM

Should have quoted "born a Jew" in that sentence and not just "Jew". SFTC. Some people act like someone can be born "Jewish" and I disagree. Some people make up silly rules like "You are only Jewish if your mother (or your father) is Jewish". There's a similar silly belief among some that one's father must have been Muslim in order for the child to be Muslim. And that's one prominent example of some people treating religious belief systems as if they are genetic inheritances (which they call an ethnic assignment).

Tell that to those Jews and Muslims who think you are only Jewish or Muslim if one of your parents is/was (otherwise you must convert). That places the definition squarely in the realm of quasi-genetics.
I see a lot of hand-waving and obsfucation, but nothing to support your claim that Jewish isn't an ethnicity.

By your standards, genetics, English and Germans are the same ethnic group.

Genetics has little to do with ethnicity.

Eyeron

24th January 2010, 03:44 PM

So you've claimed but you haven't explained how or back that claim up.

Thunder

24th January 2010, 05:02 PM

So you've claimed but you haven't explained how or back that claim up.

what claim? who are you talking to?

do you believe that there is a clear and foolproof genetic test to see who is a Jew? got any evidence?

MaGZ

24th January 2010, 06:39 PM

No, it's both. Where did you get the idea it's only a religion?

No, Jews are a race.

MaGZ

24th January 2010, 06:43 PM

MaGZ

24th January 2010, 06:49 PM

MaGZ

24th January 2010, 06:58 PM

if Jews thought that Jewishness was purely a genetic thing, we would equally honor maternal and paternal descent.

That was just an arbitrary choice by the rabbis.

Thunder

24th January 2010, 07:07 PM

No, Jews are a race.

what color skin do Jews have? what color eyes?

what color hair?

Thunder

24th January 2010, 07:28 PM

Tay-Sachs disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_disease

"Research in the late 20th century demonstrated that Tay-Sachs disease is caused by a genetic mutation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation) on the HEXA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEXA) gene on chromosome 15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_15). A large number of HEXA mutations have been discovered, and new ones are still being reported. These mutations reach significant frequencies in several populations. French Canadians of southeastern Quebec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec) have a carrier frequency similar to Ashkenazi Jews, but they carry a different mutation. Many Cajuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun) of southern Louisiana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana) carry the same mutation that is most common in Ashkenazi Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews)."

busted!!!!!!!!! :p

FireGarden

25th January 2010, 03:27 AM

Tay-Sachs disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_disease

And, further to Parky's quote:

On January 18, 2005, the Israeli English language daily Haaretz reported that as a "Jewish disease" Tay-Sachs had almost been eradicated. Of the 10 babies born with Tay-Sachs in North America in 2003, none had been born to Jewish families. In Israel, only one child was born with Tay-Sachs in 2003, and preliminary results from early 2005 indicated that none were born with the disease in 2004.

bigjelmapro

25th January 2010, 08:25 AM

Some people make up silly rules like "You are only Jewish if your mother (or your father) is Jewish". There's a similar silly belief among some that one's father must have been Muslim in order for the child to be Muslim. And that's one prominent example of some people treating religious belief systems as if they are genetic inheritances (which they call an ethnic assignment).

Has nothing to do with inheriting ethnicity. Its an old form, as in before DNA verification of offspring, of deeming if someone's born Jewish. At the time, the baby that popped out of a Jewish mother was the only way to verify whether the offspring was Jewish. At the time one couldn't verify this

Tell that to those Jews and Muslims who think you are only Jewish or Muslim if one of your parents is/was (otherwise you must convert). That places the definition squarely in the realm of quasi-genetics.
In Islam if the father is Muslim, the offspring are automatically deemed Muslim, even if the mother isn't Muslim. A Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim for this reason. So pretty much the other way around. Justifiable, no. Strange practices indeed.

Darth Rotor

25th January 2010, 08:37 AM

sigh...its badminton because people bring up the same apologia....like yours. "They are the same race" There can be no racism.

I take it you dismiss all Arab discrimination against Jews too?

Sorry, I was making with the trope-ish joke, not making an apolgia for discrimination. Either I need to better present tone of voice, or you might wish to clean the specs. Or a bit of both.

So, got any new moves?

DR

Darth Rotor

25th January 2010, 08:40 AM

a true democracy would not differentiate between its citizens. they all pay taxes, they should all be treated equally.
Then, obviously, according to the brilliant political scholar parky76's methodology, the US is no true democracy, as it differentiates between some of its citizens. (You are invited to track down the nearest libertarian, or other, rant about Affirmative Action and square that with your statement.)

DR

Thunder

25th January 2010, 09:04 AM

Then, obviously, according to the brilliant political scholar parky76's methodology, the US is no true democracy, as it differentiates between some of its citizens. (You are invited to track down the nearest libertarian, or other, rant about Affirmative Action and square that with your statement.)

DR

limited and targeted positive discrimination, in order to right a very historic and systematic wrong, is not a bad thing, in my opinion. nor is it undemocratic.

Arcade22

25th January 2010, 09:21 AM

limited and targeted positive discrimination, in order to right a very historic and systematic wrong, is not a bad thing

What a nice little double standard you have there. Why don't you just come clean and acknowledge that you are in favor of racial discrimination?

Thunder

25th January 2010, 02:22 PM

What a nice little double standard you have there. Why don't you just come clean and acknowledge that you are in favor of racial discrimination?

i believe, where government involvement and support of discrimination against a certian ethnicity, race, religion, or gender is proven, certain limited types of affirmative action is warranted.

i support things like extra training programs for victims of discrimination. I support discount fees for schooling for victims of discrimination.

however, i do NOT support quotas in jobs or schools of ANY kinds. nor do i support giving victims of discrimination extra bonus points on civil service exams. we should help victims of discrimination achieve, not give them a free ticket in. such "help" does them no good...and only breeds great mistrust and animosity amongst co-workers.

The Fool

26th January 2010, 12:18 AM

Then, obviously, according to the brilliant political scholar parky76's methodology, the US is no true democracy, as it differentiates between some of its citizens. (You are invited to track down the nearest libertarian, or other, rant about Affirmative Action and square that with your statement.)

DR
Name them....

Hang on...before you do that can you actually confirm that you want to compare affirmative action in the US with The Advantaged status of Jews in Israel??

Do Jews in Israel need affirmative action to address discrimination they suffer in Israel?

bigjelmapro

27th January 2010, 07:49 AM

Do Jews in Israel need affirmative action to address discrimination they suffer in Israel?
If you're Ethiopian, there's a version of it. As there is in New Zealand.

The Fool

27th January 2010, 02:37 PM

If you're Ethiopian, there's a version of it. As there is in New Zealand.
I asked a question about Jews and you answered about Ethiopians. Thats very clever.

Here...I'll ask the question again.

Do Jews in Israel need affirmative action to address discrimination they suffer in Israel?

Skeptic

27th January 2010, 09:33 PM

I asked a question about Jews and you answered about Ethiopians. Thats very clever.

I asked you if you stopped beating your wife and you answered me about my question being unfair. That's very clever.

bigjelmapro

27th January 2010, 10:20 PM

I asked a question about Jews and you answered about Ethiopians. Thats very clever.

Here...I'll ask the question again.

Do Jews in Israel need affirmative action to address discrimination they suffer in Israel?
So there's no such thing as Ethiopian Jews? Nice one.

The Fool

28th January 2010, 02:20 AM

So there's no such thing as Ethiopian Jews? Nice one.
of course there are ethiopian jews...Tell you what I'll trade you silly questions. Are all Jews Ethiopian?

or how about I just ask you again if you think that affirmative action policies designed to correct disadvantage is comparable to Israel? Are Jews disadvantaged in Israel and need affirmative action policies? Ethiopians may need one...so may Arabs,,,but how about Jews?

bigjelmapro

29th January 2010, 08:09 AM

So again, there are no Ethiopians Jews?

The Fool

29th January 2010, 03:10 PM

So again, there are no Ethiopians Jews?

Do ethiopians need affirmative action programs or do Jews need affirmative action programs?

I know you understand such a simple question and such a plain distinction but expect you will continue to play stupid to avoid having to answer.

carry on....Just to remind you..here is the question you can't answer.

Do you think Jews are disadvantaged in Israel and need affirmative action policies?

damn thats a hard question isn't it....

bigjelmapro

30th January 2010, 12:48 AM

Why answer such a stupid question? Just as ridiculous as asserting that Christians need affirmative action programs in the US.

Living up to your name again....

The Fool

30th January 2010, 02:01 AM

Why answer such a stupid question? Just as ridiculous as asserting that Christians need affirmative action programs in the US.

Living up to your name again....
The question relates to me asking darth if he really wantedto compare affirmative action in the US with The Advantaged status of Jews in Israel??

I asked if Jews in Israel needed affirmative action to address discrimination they suffer in Israel?

Thats when you interjected with the Ethiopian thing.....

so I asked you again
"Do Jews in Israel need affirmative action to address discrimination they suffer in Israel?"

You apparently find this question troublesome as you continue to flap around. All I was trying to do was confirm with Darth if he was comparing affirmative action programs in the US with Israel....you are not really helping much to clarify that. Spreading confusion and diversion and ad-homs pretty much sums up your contribution so far.

bigjelmapro

31st January 2010, 07:31 AM

I always find it amusing that you accuse me of fallacies you have been guilty of countless times in every thread you've posted.

Simply redefine your question to be "Do citizens of Israel need....." and its case solved. You're simply baiting at this point and hence no one's bothering responding to your incessant drivel. Not a new tactic on your part.

And that's about the end of my efforts to amuse you on this topic.

Thunder

31st January 2010, 07:41 AM

if it is proven that Ethiopian Jews suffer from systematic discrimination that is lent a blind eye by the govt., then yes...they should get some affirmative action to remedy this.

help with studying for civil service exams. help with paying for classes. etc etc.

but NO quotas. quotas that give less qualified people a step up...are not helpful and can be dangerous, especially if it is for safety related jobs like firefighters, cops, etc.

bigjelmapro

31st January 2010, 08:02 AM

These services are provided to all those who emigrate to Israel.

The Fool

31st January 2010, 07:01 PM

I always find it amusing that you accuse me of fallacies you have been guilty of countless times in every thread you've posted.

Simply redefine your question to be "Do citizens of Israel need....." and its case solved. You're simply baiting at this point and hence no one's bothering responding to your incessant drivel. Not a new tactic on your part.

why should I change the question .....because it paints you into a corner? It appears that you now like to describe dismantiling your position as "baiting"...fair enough.

And that's about the end of my efforts to amuse you on this topic.
better luck next time...

FireGarden

1st February 2010, 01:44 AM

I always find it amusing that you accuse me of fallacies you have been guilty of countless times in every thread you've posted.

Simply redefine your question to be "Do citizens of Israel need....." and its case solved.

Are Jews the only citizens of Israel then?

As for the need for affirmative action... It was seen as necessary in 1997/8:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfaarchive/1990_1999/1998/1/report%20of%20the%20government%20ministries-%20activities%20in

and in 2000:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/2/Israel%20Government%20Action%20in%20the%20Arab%20S ector%20-%20Febr

here's a haaretz article:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1129201.html

bigjelmapro

1st February 2010, 05:03 AM

Are Jews the only citizens of Israel then?

Remind me where I've stated this or have eluded to such a statement?

Darth Rotor

1st February 2010, 06:17 AM

Name them....

Hang on...before you do that can you actually confirm that you want to compare affirmative action in the US with The Advantaged status of Jews in Israel??

Do Jews in Israel need affirmative action to address discrimination they suffer in Israel?
I understand that you choose to condone some discrimination and not others. Why? What criterion do you use?

As to AA, I generally supported it as an attempt to mitigate a social problem, however, it is a form of discrimination that is correctly criticized as discrimination. The problem of that program becoming an entitlement program, which is a risk, takes on the character of a negative discrimination policy. That is why some of the criticisms of that particular social program have a leg to stand on.

You are invited to respond to my question, rather than attempt to deflect it, or to wander off by answering a question posed to another with an evasion and another question.

DR

Skeptic

1st February 2010, 12:57 PM

When someone is called "whites" in Israel, it is meant they're Ashkenazi Jews. This is true both physically and socially: other social groups were historically disadvantaged -- including oriental Jews, Arabs, and, more recently, immigrants from the former USSR and Ethiopia.

But this is typical of most countries in the world, including the USA or most European countries, where the elite tends to come from the same social class. This does NOT mean the disadvantaged groups are somehow not citizens, or have different legal rights than others.

If Israel was trying hard to keep the color bar as strong as possible, and shouting "but what about the racism in the USA???" when challenged, that would have been one thing. But the opposite, if anything, is the case. There are far more "outsiders" becoming "insiders", far more (say) Arab white-collar workers than there used to be, Ethiopian physicians, Russian lawyers, or what have you.

Again, it's a situation that is typical of the world at large: Israel has affirmative action to "outsider" groups (Arabs, Ethiopian Jews, recent immigrants, etc.); so does the USA. America elected the first Black president a year ago, and two years ago Israel appointed the first Arab government minister. Whether affirmative action is, in fact, a good idea or not -- whether it is not a case of two wrongs attempting to make a right -- is another issue.

So I fail to see what people are so hysterical about. Racism in Israel exists? You bet. It exists in France and the USA, too. Is Israel dealing with it worse than the USA or France? No. Does the existence of racism mean that Israel -- or the USA, or France -- is a "racist country"? No, if you want the term to mean anything stronger than "some people are racists there", which is true for every country whatever.

Thunder

1st February 2010, 02:02 PM

So I fail to see what people are so hysterical about. Racism in Israel exists? You bet. It exists in France and the USA, too. Is Israel dealing with it worse than the USA or France? No.

eh.......hold your horses there..."skeptic".

as far as treatment of religious and ethnic minorities goes, Israel is far behind the USA.

Israel allows discrimination against Arabs, Christians, and Ethiopian Jews, and has failed to fully remedy these problems.

Is Israel as bad as South Africa? No...but its close.

Is Israel as bad as the Jim Crow South. No...but they sure do have their similarities.

The racism that is found in Israel, cannot be found it any other Western industrialized democracy. I challenge you to find a North American or Western European nation that has the types and level of discrimination that exists in the Jewish State.

Skeptic

1st February 2010, 11:10 PM

Is Israel as bad as South Africa? No...but its close.

Not really, no.

Not remotely close.

Only close in the minds of those who buy into the "evil Israeli apartheid" nonsense.

FireGarden

2nd February 2010, 10:55 AM

Remind me where I've stated this or have eluded to such a statement?

When you tried to change TF's question: "Do Jews in Israel need..."
to "Do citizens of Israel need....."

To me those sound like different questions.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 12:26 PM

Only close in the minds of those who buy into the "evil Israeli apartheid" nonsense.

The situation in the West Bank, with its walls and separate roads and check points, and uncompensated land confiscations, is indeed a form of Aparthied.

Israel allows Jews who owned land in the West Bank prior to 1948, to reclaim that land. However, Israeli-Arabs cannot reclaim land in Israel that belonged to them, before 1948.

I call that racism. What do you call it?

bigjelmapro

2nd February 2010, 11:39 PM

When you tried to change TF's question: "Do Jews in Israel need..."
to "Do citizens of Israel need....."

To me those sound like different questions.
Different questions, but merely a widening of the scope of the question. Still doesn't justify making your assertion from this widening of scope.

And somehow you're assuming that TF has any interest in actual debate rather than another trolling contest.

FireGarden

3rd February 2010, 02:15 AM

Different questions, but merely a widening of the scope of the question. Still doesn't justify making your assertion from this widening of scope.

It didn't sound like widening the scope was the intention. It sounded like: "Simply redefine your question to be ... and its case solved".

The Fool

3rd February 2010, 03:49 AM

Different questions, but merely a widening of the scope of the question. Still doesn't justify making your assertion from this widening of scope.

And somehow you're assuming that TF has any interest in actual debate rather than another trolling contest.
always happy to debate...makes it difficult when you rewrite my questions.

Skeptic

3rd February 2010, 05:07 AM

Thunder

3rd February 2010, 05:52 AM

Guess who, surprise surprise, doesn't give a damn about the Haitian orphans or their conversion to other religions all of a sudden, now that their abduction can't be blamed on the Jews and the other religion is not Judaism?

wait for it........wait for it....wait for it....

......strawman. :p

bigjelmapro

3rd February 2010, 07:32 AM

It didn't sound like widening the scope was the intention. It sounded like: "Simply redefine your question to be ... and its case solved".
Well, since my position regarding this issue has never had a semblance of Jews being regarded as the only true citizens of Israel, I would have assumed that you would not make such an assumption from my reply. Its a bit of a stretch to make such an assumption based on what I said.

The Fool

3rd February 2010, 03:18 PM

Just a quick note about the usual double-standard folks here: a week ago or so, "The Fool" went bananas over the awful, AWFUL Israeli plan to adopt Haitian children. All was, allegedly, due to deep concern about their rights, lest they be turned into Jews.

Well, now in the "Social Issues & Current Events" section, there is a thread about a group of Baptists who actually planned to abduct Haitian orphans and were arrested for it. And somehow I doubt those Baptists were planning to bring the kids up as good Catholics, let alone as good voodoo practitioners. There are over 100 replies by most of the SI&CE regulars, most of them condemning it, others wondering if perhaps it's a misunderstanding of some sort.

Except one of them.

Guess who, surprise surprise, doesn't give a damn about the Haitian orphans or their conversion to other religions all of a sudden, now that their abduction can't be blamed on the Jews and the other religion is not Judaism?

Hi... I don't hang out in every thead in the damn forum. I missed that thread. Tell me...are there any people in that thread acting as apologists for the baptists??? I think I'll go off and find what threads you have not posted in...apparently absense from a thread is quite a significant indicator eh? clutch at straws "skeptic" all else appears to be failing

son if you are going to try to disect me with your blunt intellect you need to get up earlier and put in longer hours...

here is a quote of your latest lie "All was, allegedly, due to deep concern about their rights, lest they be turned into Jews." just can't stop yourself.... My concerns were that the Israeli government wanting to make their conversion to Judaism compulsory was discriminatory in that it precluded the 20% of Israeli citizens who are not jews from adopting....but considering your position of comfort with discrimination against arabs in Israel I doubt if thats too much of a concern for you.

have you abandoned all approaches except the anti-semitism slur?

mortimer

3rd February 2010, 06:03 PM

The situation in the West Bank, with its walls and separate roads and check points, and uncompensated land confiscations, is indeed a form of Aparthied.

I call that racism. What do you call it?
Are you back to claiming there are roads in the West Bank (or anywhere else in Israeli-occupied territory) that only Jews are allowed to use? I thought you had already retracted that claim.

The Fool

3rd February 2010, 08:03 PM

Are you back to claiming there are roads in the West Bank (or anywhere else in Israeli-occupied territory) that only Jews are allowed to use? I thought you had already retracted that claim.
there are selective roads.....roads that are for the use of settlers...Israelis.....call them what you will. Saying they are Jews only is not correct because theoretically a settler may not be a Jew (highly theoretically) In the past people have avoided the issue of these roads and thier effect on local palestinians when parky mentioned them and concentrated on a parky bash as they nit pick between "jew only" and "settler only"...

which nit do you wish to pick?

FireGarden

4th February 2010, 03:42 AM

there are selective roads.....roads that are for the use of settlers...Israelis.....call them what you will. Saying they are Jews only is not correct because theoretically a settler may not be a Jew (highly theoretically) In the past people have avoided the issue of these roads and thier effect on local palestinians when parky mentioned them and concentrated on a parky bash as they nit pick between "jew only" and "settler only"...

I noted this story a short while ago:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8434174.stm

Israel's Supreme Court has ordered the military to let Palestinians use a road that runs through the West Bank.

[...] The court said the military did not have the authority to impose the kind of sweeping limitation that "in effect transforms the road into a route designed for 'internal' Israeli traffic alone".

[...] The military have five months to implement the ruling and dismantle the barriers.

It is the second time in recent months the court has ordered the military to open roads to Palestinians.

Perhaps a long time coming, but a good thing... seeing as the roads are built on Palestinian land!

Thunder

4th February 2010, 05:47 AM

Are you back to claiming there are roads in the West Bank (or anywhere else in Israeli-occupied territory) that only Jews are allowed to use? I thought you had already retracted that claim.

the WB has separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians. Though, the good supreme court of Israel has decided that the major one was integrate.

bigjelmapro

4th February 2010, 06:30 AM

I noted this story a short while ago:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8434174.stm

Omission from the story is that this ruling only regards the 12.5 mile piece of the 443 highway that was barred vehicles with Palestinian plates travel completely since 2002 (only partially between 2000-2002), as in since the intifada when there were a number of shootings, stabbings and bombings occurred along this road. At the time, limiting the use of this part of 443 was justifiable but could not remain absolute/indefinite as the violence subsided, as the ruling indicated.

I do hope that the Palestinian terrorist groups residing in the WB don't scuttle this ruling by once again attacking motorists with Israeli license plates (albeit Palestinian license plate ones were occasionally hit).

I do hope overall that restrictions on all traffic, including full restrictions of Israeli license plate traffic on a number of roads in the West bank, would come to an end.

So it cuts both ways.

Perhaps a long time coming, but a good thing... seeing as the roads are built on Palestinian land!
And where is this claim from? Route 443 and a number of other roads exist on previous routes made by (as in first paved) the Ottomans during the 19th century, ie Jaffa/Jerusalem route, and were merely upgraded in the 1980s to accommodate increased traffic. Worked for a bit until 2000-2002. Other routes have existed for centuries, yet now they are considered to be property solely of Palestinians?

Or are we propagating the using West bank = Palestinian land (as in its entirety, including the British land reform of the mid 1920's) drivel again?

The Fool

4th February 2010, 02:27 PM

Or are we propagating the using West bank = Palestinian land (as in its entirety, including the British land reform of the mid 1920's) drivel again?

what drivel would you prefer? Its Israeli land?

Thunder

4th February 2010, 02:35 PM

I think Israel should keep as many discriminatory restrictions as possible. That will bring its inevitability as a total Ghetto-state even closer.

applecorped

4th February 2010, 02:38 PM

I think Israel should keep as many discriminatory restrictions as possible. That will bring its inevitability as a total Ghetto-state even closer.

So, you're in favor of ghetto's? Or only in favor of ghetto's for Israeli's?

Thunder

4th February 2010, 03:08 PM

So, you're in favor of ghetto's? Or only in favor of ghetto's for Israeli's?

I am in favor of Israeli right-wingers getting exactly what they want. an isolated, hated, ignored, Jewish-ghetto state.

that way paranoid right-wing Jews can blame everyone else for their pathetic situation.

bigjelmapro

5th February 2010, 01:37 AM

So you think that measures taken during the outbreak of the last intifada are merely that of right-wingers? Duly noted.

Once again, how is this regarded as right-wing or fascist?

You are by far the worst debater on this forum Parky.

bigjelmapro

5th February 2010, 01:40 AM

what drivel would you prefer? Its Israeli land?
Nope. Just as I stated, that its automatically viewed as Palestinian land. No need to flip yet another position.

bigjelmapro

5th February 2010, 01:44 AM

I think Israel should keep as many discriminatory restrictions as possible. That will bring its inevitability as a total Ghetto-state even closer.
Again, cuts both ways. The endgame should be a removal of restrictions of movement on both sides, regardless of what kind of license plates one has.

Ghetto allegation? The restriction of movement does make travel time for Palestinians longer and transport of goods more of a hassle, but Ghetto-state?

Explain yourself here. Otherwise this would be taken as yet another emotive and exploitative use of another loaded word like apartheid, genocide, etc.

(Mind you, getting closer to Ghetto-state would imply increased trade, lessening of restrictions, increased employment and wages in the disputed territories, which has been explained before.)

Skeptic

5th February 2010, 01:12 PM

Once again, how is this regarded as right-wing or fascist?

It's Jews trying to do something to fight back against suicide bomber terrorism instead of lying down quietly and dying so as not to offend people.

Sword_Of_Truth

5th February 2010, 01:36 PM

I'm so glad there is finally a thread on JREF exposing Israels racism.

Thunder

5th February 2010, 01:44 PM

It's Jews trying to do something to fight back against suicide bomber terrorism instead of lying down quietly and dying so as not to offend people.

translation?

discrimination against Arabs and Muslims= Jews defending themselves

I cry for the poor Jews who think this way.

ProbeX

5th February 2010, 02:18 PM

Forgot all about this thread - got caught up in a silly but mandatory business project - so I'll just pick up from where things were left off. Someone mentioned Tay-Sachs disease.

Re: Tay-Sachs disease: if someone were to say they have a certain Eastern European gene, fine. You could even go about labeling it "Ashkenazi" or whatever else, fine (but not Askenazi Jew). Again, that gene never decided that a person was a Jew - religion is something that is chosen rather than inherited ... just like no one is genetically Muslim or Christian.

I've pretty much stated my position about this subject in general several times: if someone still doesn't understand the difference between human genetics and adopted human behavior/belief (Judaism), not sure what else can be said.

MaGZ

5th February 2010, 03:11 PM

The situation in the West Bank, with its walls and separate roads and check points, and uncompensated land confiscations, is indeed a form of Aparthied.

Israel allows Jews who owned land in the West Bank prior to 1948, to reclaim that land. However, Israeli-Arabs cannot reclaim land in Israel that belonged to them, before 1948.

I call that racism. What do you call it?

Do you think the Palestinians need a Mahatma Gandhi or a Martin Luther King Jr. to win their freedom?

applecorped

5th February 2010, 03:15 PM

Do you think the Palestinians need a Mahatma Gandhi or a Martin Luther King Jr. to win their freedom?

Need, maybe. Want, no.

Thunder

5th February 2010, 03:16 PM

Do you think the Palestinians need a Mahatma Gandhi or a Martin Luther King Jr. to win their freedom?

its probably too late for that.

though, a sustained campaign of non-violent resistance may be just the thing the peace process really needs.

the ONLY justification the Israelis have for not allowing a Palestinian State, is fear of a non-peaceful and threatening enemy neighbor. Take large scale Palestinian violence out of the equation, and the right-wing Israelis have no more foundation to stand on.

though, I shall not hold my breath. violent resistance has become a central part of the Palestinian psychy.

MaGZ

5th February 2010, 03:22 PM

its probably too late for that.

though, a sustained campaign of non-violent resistance may be just the thing the peace process really needs.

the ONLY justification the Israelis have for not allowing a Palestinian State, is fear of a non-peaceful and threatening enemy neighbor. Take large scale Palestinian violence out of the equation, and the right-wing Israelis have no more foundation to stand on.

though, I shall not hold my breath. violent resistance has become a central part of the Palestinian psychy.

So if the Palestinians wanted to sit down and block roads to protest Jewish settlements then that would be OK?

I wonder what the reaction of the Jewish settlers would be, worse than Birmingham, Alabama I would think.

Sword_Of_Truth

5th February 2010, 03:26 PM

I'm so glad that MaGZ is finally here to help expose racism in Israel.

Thunder

5th February 2010, 03:27 PM

So if the Palestinians wanted to sit down and block roads to protest Jewish settlements then that would be OK?

ok with me? sure. ok with the IDF? no.

i would expect a massacre. if not by the IDF, then by extremist settlers.

bigjelmapro

6th February 2010, 04:19 AM

Respond to your latest failed post Parky and those long string of other ones on the other threads:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5586840&postcount=149

A massacre....right.

Thunder

6th February 2010, 07:21 AM

A massacre....right.

ive seen videos of previous peaceful Palestinian protests that are reacted to with violence by the IDF.

bigjelmapro

6th February 2010, 11:35 PM

Yep videos. People miraculously being wounded by .22 caliber rifles, which aren't carried by border patrol. I take Pallywood with a grain of salt.

React to this post:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5586840&postcount=149

Not giving you another out of yet another thread.

Skeptic

25th March 2010, 02:11 PM

OF COURSE if one could count on the Palestinian state actually being peaceful there would be peace. This was the basis of the Oslo accords. The problem is, "peaceful Palestinian state" is an oxymoron.

Before the Oslo accords, the big discussion in Israel was whether giving up the territories would be worth it for peace. Both proponents and opponents at least accepted the implicit assumption was that giving the territories up for a Palestinian state would create peace. It is now obvious this is simply not true.

Thunder

25th March 2010, 02:13 PM

The problem is, "peaceful Palestinian state" is an oxymoron.

yes, and the Jewish state has been all about love, peace, and tolerance for minorities.

exactly how long did Israeli Arabs live under a state of martial law?

Skeptic

25th March 2010, 02:13 PM

I'm so glad that MaGZ is finally here to help expose racism in Israel.

MaGZ's has a cause.

His cause is racism.

He's for it.

The Fool

25th March 2010, 07:20 PM

MaGZ's has a cause.

His cause is racism.

He's for it.
so are you.....just different target groups.

Skeptic

26th March 2010, 03:13 AM

Let's distinguish two things.

First, the "oh look how evil Israel is" crowd -- whose goal is obviously simply delegitimizing Israel so as to make its destruction easier and less morally burdensome -- can go to hell. They care little or nothing for racism when they can't blame the Jews for it.

Second, this doesn't mean, of course, that racism is OK and Israel can ignore racism just due to the hypocritical and evil motives of some of those who accuse it of racism.

But the crucial point is that Israel does NOT do so. Israeli Arabs, like American blacks, still suffer from racism -- but a lot less than they used to. There are far more opportunities, integration, education, academics, professionals, etc. for or among Israeli Arabs now than there were even 20 years ago, let alone 40.

While many statistics could be shown to prove this, here's some personal info: my boss' boss, my children's emergency room physician, some of my colleagues, and the regular bus drivers I use are Arab. My point isn't to claim this means no discrimination exists, but to point out that this was inconceivable 30 years ago, unlikely 15 years ago, and today is not worthy of comment except for "so?".

The reason Israel became less racist not because of the hypocritical criticism of the usual gang of Israel haters. It has simply to do with common decency and the world in general becoming less acceptable to racism.