Muslim Nation Creating "Illegal" Weapons

[Rationalist]

We always hear Bush saying various nations are creating "illegal" weapons, but who decides what is illegal for the rest of the world, America? Does not a sovereign nation decide for itself what is illegal and legal for it's nation? America and Israel has nukes, bio/chem weapons, so is America and Israel behaving "illegally?" And who decides?

Basically, America/Israel have joined forces to imperialize the rest of the world, similar to empires of the past, but more covert. Now, whether this is justified or not is another story. Republican citizens believe that an American/Israeli world empire is indeed justified simply because it is perceived as benefiting these two nations at the expense of the rest of the world. So, let us not discuss whether America/Israel are forming an empire, which is obviously true, there is nothing more to debate here. Rather, discuss whether the formation of this empire is justifiable. Everyone please explain if you agree with the current imperialism or not.

[geni]

Israel!? the Us maybe but Israel. Please there are at least 4 countries asside from the US who could wipe Israel from the face of the earth if they chose. Israel's population is 6.4 million. how excatly is it establishing an empire?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Rationalist
We always hear Bush saying various nations are creating "illegal" weapons, but who decides what is illegal for the rest of the world, America? Does not a sovereign nation decide for itself what is illegal and legal for it's nation? America and Israel has nukes, bio/chem weapons, so is America and Israel behaving "illegally?" And who decides?

Basically, America/Israel have joined forces to imperialize the rest of the world, similar to empires of the past, but more covert. Now, whether this is justified or not is another story. Republican citizens believe that an American/Israeli world empire is indeed justified simply because it is perceived as benefiting these two nations at the expense of the rest of the world. So, let us not discuss whether America/Israel are forming an empire, which is obviously true, there is nothing more to debate here. Rather, discuss whether the formation of this empire is justifiable. Everyone please explain if you agree with the current imperialism or not.

:tr:

[Rationalist]

Originally posted by geni
Israel!? the Us maybe but Israel. Please there are at least 4 countries asside from the US who could wipe Israel from the face of the earth if they chose. Israel's population is 6.4 million. how excatly is it establishing an empire?

Israel has at least 200 nuclear missles, plus many bio-chem weapons. They are working with America to overthrow every arab and muslim nation for mutual gains: America gains the oil, Israel gains hegemony over the Middle East. America and Israel are the same nation, more or less. Look at Bush's cabinet: most are Israeli-Americans with dual citizenship and they are members of Sharone's Likud party.

Of course, as I said, whether this is justifyable or not is another story. does America and Israel have the right to imperialize or kill the rest of the world? Why or why not? Does the rule of "might makes right" apply?

[Zombified]

Many countries have signed and ratified various non-proliferation and other arms control treaties. For them to develop NBC weapons violates their treaty obligations. Iran, Iraq, and Libya all signed and ratified the nuclear nonproliferation treaty.

Israel has not signed the non-proliferation treaty. The US's nuclear capability predates these treaties, which are intended to prevent countries that did not previously have those weapons to get them. Israel, therefore, would not be violating its obligations by developing nuclear capability, for example. India and Pakistan also did not sign the non-proliferation treaty.

The US has recently refused to ratify a treaty it signed banning nuclear testing. Since we did not actually ratify the treaty, it technically does not constrain us legally, though some interpret the refusal to ratify to be a bit of bad faith. We also decided to back out of the anti-ballistic-missile treaty. Opinions differ on the legality of that. Some consider the US to be rather hypocritical about arms control treaties.

[geni]

Very funny can't even get basic geography right (hint not all muslim nations are in the middle east)

[crackmonkey]

Most of Bush's cabinet have dual citizenship and are members of Likud???
HUH????

[demon]

Hello Rationalist...you are making too much sense here so it stands to reason you must be a troll or an anti-Semite.
Don`t say you weren`t warned;)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by demon
Hello Rationalist...you are making too much sense here so it stands to reason you must be a troll or an anti-Semite.
Don`t say you weren`t warned;)


The truth is that personally I wouldn't do the honor to call antisemite a person who claims something like this:

originally posted by Rationalist
Look at Bush's cabinet: most are Israeli-Americans with dual citizenship and they are members of Sharone's Likud party.


I have always believed that you have a funny sense of what makes sense demon :)

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Rationalist

Israel has at least 200 nuclear missles, plus many bio-chem weapons. They are working with America to overthrow every arab and muslim nation for mutual gains: America gains the oil, Israel gains hegemony over the Middle East. America and Israel are the same nation, more or less. Look at Bush's cabinet: most are Israeli-Americans with dual citizenship and they are members of Sharone's Likud party.


I'd like to see the source for your data. Can you document:

1) That Israel has any nuclear missiles.

2) Israel's bio-chem capabilities.

3) That Israel wants hegemony over the Middle East.

4) List the people in Bush's cabinet that are also Israeli citizens, then document that they are also members of the Likud party.

I look forward to seeing your documentation.

[rdaneel]

Look at Bush's cabinet: most are Israeli-Americans with dual citizenship and they are members of Sharone's Likud party.
Yes, please look through Bush's cabinet (http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html) and tell us which ones are Israeli-Americans that make up "most" of the members?
Not that it matters since Bush doesn't pay much attention to his cabinet (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33621) anyway. :cool:

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


I'd like to see the source for your data. Can you document:

1) That Israel has any nuclear missiles.

2) Israel's bio-chem capabilities.

3) That Israel wants hegemony over the Middle East.

4) List the people in Bush's cabinet that are also Israeli citizens, then document that they are also members of the Likud party.

I look forward to seeing your documentation.

Everyone knows that Israel has nukes. Next qustion.

[demon]

"I have always believed that you have a funny sense of what makes sense demon"

Why, thank you my queen ;)

[The Fool]

Oh well, we were running a bit short of trolls there for a while.......where did this doofus come from? My theory is its the same guy that runs the shaekh whatshisname character and he's lining the two up for the ultimate battle of the sockpuppets...In a steel cage, no holds barred. Winner is the person who can fabricate the most erroneous facts about Israel in 1 minute.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Everyone knows that Israel has nukes. Next qustion.

Seriously I didn't know that Israel denies it. I have read that Israel has either the third or the fourth largest nuclear arsenal in the world. I think that its nuclear arsenal is larger than Britain's but I am not sure about this.

[geni]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Seriously I didn't know that Israel denies it. I have read that Israel has either the third or the fourth largest nuclear arsenal in the world. I think that its nuclear arsenal is larger than Britain's but I am not sure about this.

No one is quite sure what Israel has but it is thought to be about 200 (this number comes from an american estimate using satelite photos) the Uk has around 100 odd I think. France has rather more so isreal is about 4th (I can't remember China).

[demon]

They also developed the the featherless chicken...now train them to operate the remote controlled bulldozers and I think Hamas will call it a day.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by demon
They also developed the the featherless chicken...now train them to operate the remote controlled bulldozers and I think Hamas will call it a day.


:roll:

[Mike B.]

Could someone tell me what is the extent of the US chemical/biological weapons?

I mean I really don't know.

[geni]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Could someone tell me what is the extent of the US chemical/biological weapons?

I mean I really don't know.

These days apart from a few things like tear gas I think it is basicly zero.

[Ed]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Everyone knows that Israel has nukes. Next qustion.

Can you use the same logic for Iraq?

[geni]

Originally posted by Ed


Can you use the same logic for Iraq?

If it was backed up by the same level of evidence.

The shrouds of secrecy have lifted only once, in the mid-1980s, when a former worker at the plant, Mordechai Vanunu, gave a British newspaper descriptions and photographs of Israeli nuclear warheads.

Vanunu's evidence led to a sharp upwards revision of the number of nuclear warheads Israel was believed to possess - to at least 100 - and possibly as many as 200

Israel's former Prime Minister Shimon Peres, widely regarded as the architect of Israel's nuclear weapons programme, testified at the trial that Vanunu had done serious damage to Israel's security.



In 1968, a US Central Intelligence Agency report concluded that Israel had begun to produce nuclear weapons.

source
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3340639.stm

[Ed]

Originally posted by geni


If it was backed up by the same level of evidence.









source
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3340639.stm

Does not sound terribly different than Iraq.

[Monketey Ghost]

Wow. I'm really looking forward to the evidence that "Most of Bush's cabinet have dual citizenship and are members of Likud."

I mean, if you want to convince me of a Jewish conspiracy to dominate US politics, that'd go a long way to doing it. You have a chance to change someone's opinion here, Rationalist.

[Pyrrho]

Information on Israel's alleged nuclear arsenal here:

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Israel/index.html

The site has a lot of information on nuclear weapons.

[geni]

Originally posted by Ed


Does not sound terribly different than Iraq.

Iraq boils down to "they had them ten years ago"

In the case of Israil we know they have the caperbility and they have never denied having them. If Vanunu was lying why has he been locked up for the last 15 years. It is generaly agreed that the nuclear plant is not required for cevilian perposes.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Could someone tell me what is the extent of the US chemical/biological weapons?

I mean I really don't know.


Chemical: Tons and tons and tons. We're in the process of destroying them all. We're behind schedule and overbudget, but incinerating chemical weapons is the ultimate NIMBY project. We've destroyed about a quarter of our stockpile.

Russia is doing likewise, and they've destroyed 1% of their stockpile.

source (http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2003/10/31/WashingtonDCBureau/49630.html)


Biological: Not as clear to me. We have active programs, but we're not mass-producing either agents or delivery systems, it seems.

MattJ

[Troll]

Originally posted by Rationalist


Israel has at least 200 nuclear missles, plus many bio-chem weapons. They are working with America to overthrow every arab and muslim nation for mutual gains: America gains the oil, Israel gains hegemony over the Middle East. America and Israel are the same nation, more or less. Look at Bush's cabinet: most are Israeli-Americans with dual citizenship and they are members of Sharone's Likud party.

Of course, as I said, whether this is justifyable or not is another story. does America and Israel have the right to imperialize or kill the rest of the world? Why or why not? Does the rule of "might makes right" apply?

And we're not on Saudi Arabia's butt and trying to overthrow them but instead are using our agent, UBL, to do it for us by getting him ticked off at the Saudis. We wanted Afghanistan too and that's why we left him there so we could attack them in a hunt for him after he and the Taliban gave us an excuse we could use. We had an American woman marry the former Jordanian King so we could gain access that way.

Yes I can see the great lights of the conspiracy shining down upon me now. America is just trying to get the rest of the world angry at our oil grabbing goals so that other nations can apply pressure on the democrats so that they allow us to stop all of this nonsense and drill ANWR.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by aerocontrols



Biological: ..... We have active programs, but we're not mass-producing either agents or delivery systems, it seems.



One infected person who travels on public transport should be plenty of delivery system. Or go all out: send half a dozen. You could even put a few on airplanes before they ride a train or bus.

What could any almost-competant gene-splicer come up with? Any particular problem tailoring something with high ethnic (yes I mean dna) selectivity?


Who needs a nuke?

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by aerocontrols



Chemical: Tons and tons and tons. We're in the process of destroying them all. We're behind schedule and overbudget, but incinerating chemical weapons is the ultimate NIMBY project. We've destroyed about a quarter of our stockpile.

Russia is doing likewise, and they've destroyed 1% of their stockpile.

source (http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2003/10/31/WashingtonDCBureau/49630.html)


Biological: Not as clear to me. We have active programs, but we're not mass-producing either agents or delivery systems, it seems.

MattJ

Thanks Matt,
You always come through...:)

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Everyone knows that Israel has nukes. Next qustion.

Everyone knows that you’re willing to accept anything critical of Israel (and Jews) at face value without the slighted degree of skepticism or common sense. We also know that when it comes to Israel, your reading/comprehension skills go way down, that you’re only capable seeing what already fits within your Israel-hating world view.

I’ll try to make this simple so that it might filter past your biases. Read the next sentence carefully:

There is a huge difference between researching nuclear weapons and having 200 nuclear missiles.

Did you get that?

I understand that when it comes to Israel, it’s not easy to convey information to you. If I have to repeat that, I will understand. I’m patient. I’ll try to take this in baby-steps.

Rationalist made a specific claim that Israel had “at least 200 nuclear missiles”, I asked him to document that.

I know that was two ideas in the same sentence, so I hope I’m not stretching your capabilities. I can only dumb it down so far. I’m anticipating that you’re going to have trouble with that, so let me clarify:

I didn’t ask him to verify that Israel had nukes.

I thought it important to include that because I’ve seen that you have problems distinguishing between ideas that are related but not the same, and ideas that are the same. I know in advance that I will have to clarify further, so here goes:

Proving that Israel has researched nuclear weapons is not the same as proving that Israel has at least 200 nuclear missiles[b].

And let me clarify that by pointing out that the key words are [b]”not the same as” and that those words are to help you understand the difference between the two different ideas that are 1) Israel has researched nuclear weapons and 2) Israel has 200 nuclear missiles.

I understand that I am not helping your understanding by including these different ideas in the same paragraph, I apologize. While I do have some experience in teaching the learning disabled, that same experience teaches me that everyone with learning disabilities needs a slightly different approach. If you need further clarification, I’ll do my best.

AUP, I don’t want you to feel like you need to try to understand the following, it’s meant for everyone else.

I’m not questioning that Israel has the capability to build nuclear weapons, but Rationalist has made specific claims about Israel’s nuclear capability that is not supported by anything but speculation. There is a huge difference between saying that Israel can (and probably has) built nuclear bombs and saying that Israel has 200 or more nuclear missiles. If he ever comes back to this thread, I would like to see his supporting evidence for this and other claims.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


AUP, I don’t want you to feel like you need to try to understand the following, it’s meant for everyone else.

I’m not questioning that Israel has the capability to build nuclear weapons, but Rationalist has made specific claims about Israel’s nuclear capability that is not supported by anything but speculation. There is a huge difference between saying that Israel can (and probably has) built nuclear bombs and saying that Israel has 200 or more nuclear missiles. If he ever comes back to this thread, I would like to see his supporting evidence for this and other claims.

?????????????

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
?????????????

Sorry. I realize I failed to explain that too. I meant that I didn’t expect you to follow any further because the following was going to be an entire paragraph with more than one simple idea.

My fault. Your confusion is natural.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Could someone tell me what is the extent of the US chemical/biological weapons?

I mean I really don't know.

Does anyone really know? Perhaps we need UN inspectors with total access to search the US to make sure there aren't any such weapons.

[Troll]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Does anyone really know? Perhaps we need UN inspectors with total access to search the US to make sure there aren't any such weapons.

And when they don't find any Canada can invade and try to find the ones we really do have. Bring friends and pack a lunch, if you think you'll have time for lunch.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Troll


And when they don't find any Canada can invade and try to find the ones we really do have. Bring friends and pack a lunch, if you think you'll have time for lunch.

So, you think they won't find any, but some do exist? So, should the UN be discussing plans to investigate if there are reasons to believe the US has WMDs?

[Troll]

Originally posted by KelvinG


So, you think they won't find any, but some do exist? So, should the UN be discussing plans to investigate if there are reasons to believe the US has WMDs?

Sure. But make sure they follow procedure and ban the US from having them first. Then give us time to get rid of them, say 5 years, and then come check it out. It's not like there's any consequences if we don't get rid of them. I mean setting consequences isn't exactly a UN strong point.;)

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Troll


Sure. But make sure they follow procedure and ban the US from having them first. Then give us time to get rid of them, say 5 years, and then come check it out. It's not like there's any consequences if we don't get rid of them. I mean setting consequences isn't exactly a UN strong point.;)

Well, as long as you get rid of them, that's all that counts. Then there will be no reason for anyone to invade. Inspections will bear out that they are not there and everyone will be happy.
Man, sounds like a great plan.

[daenku32]

Why would anyone sign a treaty to not get weapons like that, when the most powerfull nation, and one most likely to use them, in the world has all of them?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by daenku32
Why would anyone sign a treaty to not get weapons like that, when the most powerfull nation, and one most likely to use them, in the world has all of them?

In Iraq's case, it was so that the French would sell them a nuclear power plant.

In Iran's case, it's so that the Russians will sell them a nuclear power plant.

[Tmy]

The US most likey to use them??? Youve got to be kidding. The US is least likely to use these weapons because we have citizens with ancestors from every country. WE cant do anything with out some group getting all upset. Plus these other loser countries are too unstable to be trusted with nukes.

So weve been entrusted to keep all the bad weapons of the world. If sci-fi movies have taught us anything its that you may someday need these weapons to fight off space aliens or renegage robots. We have to keep some nuke/chem weapons around for just such an emergency.:)

[Monketey Ghost]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Well, as long as you get rid of them, that's all that counts. Then there will be no reason for anyone to invade. Inspections will bear out that they are not there and everyone will be happy.
Man, sounds like a great plan.

:D

[richardm]

Originally posted by daenku32
Why would anyone sign a treaty to not get weapons like that, when the most powerfull nation, and one most likely to use them, in the world has all of them?

I think that in general there are incentives of one kind or another offered for signatories to the treaties. And lets face it, nobody apart from China could take on the USA and win, so the gear the US has is irrelevant as far as that goes.

I'm sure I'm right in saying that the US is a signatory to a lot of treaties already, and is reducing the number of nukes and eliminating chemical and biological stockpiles.