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View Full Version : Who started the whole Israel / Palestine thing?


rainbeau
20th January 2010, 07:31 PM
I went to school with a Palestinian girl. At least once or twice, we discussed the ongoing Israel / Palestine conflicts. I'd heard about Isaac and Ishmael as a kid, but never looked too deeply into the stories until after I talked to her. After talking to her, and reading back through the story a few times, I reached a not-so-suprising conclusion.

According to the bible, god gave Canaan / Palestine / Israel to the descendents of Abraham. He did not specify "I will give this land to your decendents by your favorite son, Isaac." He promised it to all of Abraham's descendents. That means both his firstborn, Ishmael, and Isaac, had claim to the land.

Actually, the elder son got the lion's share of the estate. That means poor Isaac would have to take whatever was left after his big brother was done. Some say that he has no claim because he wasn't born of Abraham's wife, Sara. He was born of Sara's maid, who became Abraham's concubine for the purpose of giving him a son. But the laws allowed men to produce heirs in this way. And these children had the same inheritance rights as children by legal wives.

Of course, after Isaac was born, Sara had Abraham banish Hagar and Ishmael so that Isaac wouldn't have any competition. Banished or not, Ishmael was born first. Thus his descendents (arabs) would've gotten the 'bigger half' so to speak. Banishment might have reversed their roles. But there's still god's promise that all of Abraham's descendents would inherit the land. So Ishmael still had a claim to the land.

This means that neither side can say that the other has no right to the land. It also means that this debate goes back farther than the official formation of "ISRAEL." Of course, the real question is ... Who started it? I'll give you a hint. He started all of it. As in everything. That's right. Score another EPIC FAIL for our invisible friend in the sky.

Apparently, our invisible friend was not all-knowing enough to know that a few thousand of years in the future, the children of Abraham would be members of opposing religions... and the land he promised to them would end up in a kind of global tug-o-war... made worse by advocates of a relatively new religion (started by our invisible friend's son) who poke their noses into the battle... and acting on what an only be described as a god-complex, decide that they know best how to handle the situation... by giving the land to the favorite son, thus fueling the flames in this age-old case of sibbling rivalry... flames that already make the lake of fire seem like the cold side of the moon in comparison.

You'd think an omiscient god would know these things. Or at least, know that there might be some disagreement between Abraham's kids. Kids fight. It happens. That's why parents (and invisible friends) have to be clear about things like who gets the top bunk (or the promised land).

And if there is no god, then I guess it's a matter of who was there first. Or at least, whose army is bigger and stronger and can keep the land under their control. Or the land could just be equally split into two countries. (Insert comments about King Solomon sawing a baby in half.) Then again, why do things in a somewhat reasonable fashion when we can use opposing beliefs about our invisible friends as justification for war?

Darth Rotor
20th January 2010, 07:33 PM
Who started the whole Israel / Palestine thing?
Either Sampson or Jay Leno, I forget which.

DR

Cleon
20th January 2010, 07:35 PM
Colonel Mustard. In the conservatory. With the candlestick.

Darth Rotor
20th January 2010, 07:49 PM
Colonel Mustard. In the conservatory. With the candlestick.

The one with seven candles???? :confused: And what was that dradl doing up the backside of the victim, anyway?

Gord_in_Toronto
20th January 2010, 08:18 PM
Come on guys. Let's be sensible about this and give a sensible answer. ;)

It's God's fault. His record keeping is so screwed up that he gave the lease to more than one tribe. :(

Darth Rotor
20th January 2010, 08:39 PM
Come on guys. Let's be sensible about this and give a sensible answer. ;)

It's God's fault. His record keeping is so screwed up that he gave the lease to more than one tribe. :(
Well, that makes as much sense as the rest of it.

Thanks Gord, we appreciate the reason that cold, clean Canadian air lends to a knotty problem.

Too bad that air can't flow to the Middle East ...

Skeptic
20th January 2010, 09:41 PM
Sadly, there are those -- on both sides -- who use the biblical story as evidence that the entire land belongs to them.

I wish to correct one common misunderstanding that might arise: zionism as a whole does not use the biblical story of Jacob and Esav as evidence. It uses the bible as (part of) the evidence of the historical fact that the Jews had a kingdom there for centuries and wanted to return there after they were exiled (twice).

Whatever the merit of that argument, it is not dependent on what God said or promised.

FarmallMTA
20th January 2010, 10:33 PM
Dunno about prehistoric times, but most recently we have Harry Truman and Joe Stalin to thank for it.

Truman, so that he could carry New York in '48. Uncle Joe so he could banish Jews from the Soviet Union.

Democrats and commies. Why are we so cursed with such scourges of idiocy that they won't go away? Now they're one and the same. *sigh*

PogoPedant
20th January 2010, 11:21 PM
I did.

Sorry. :/

shemp
21st January 2010, 07:09 AM
I started it just for the lulz.

Thunder
21st January 2010, 07:17 AM
I blame Abraham. He was a prick.

ZARDOZ
21st January 2010, 07:22 AM
Either Sampson or Jay Leno, I forget which.

DR

It was Jay Leno. He left.. and then wanted Palestine back. ;)

Darat
21st January 2010, 07:35 AM
They started it.

Tailgater
21st January 2010, 07:51 AM
The chicken.....no, wait....the egg....ah, i hate these questions.

Thunder
21st January 2010, 07:52 AM
They started it.

who you callin' "they"????

:D

The Fool
21st January 2010, 03:31 PM
I'm speaking with god tonight. I'll ask.

Travis
21st January 2010, 04:56 PM
I'm thinking the last thing we should do is try to use religious texts to settle this.

Peephole
21st January 2010, 05:58 PM
The other guy! Anyone but me!

rainbeau
21st January 2010, 06:36 PM
I'm thinking the last thing we should do is try to use religious texts to settle this.

Exactly. Religion is how it started. That's my point. Both sides use their religious texts as "proof" of their right to the land.

gnome
21st January 2010, 06:37 PM
Dunno about prehistoric times, but most recently we have Harry Truman and Joe Stalin to thank for it.

Truman, so that he could carry New York in '48. Uncle Joe so he could banish Jews from the Soviet Union.

Democrats and commies. Why are we so cursed with such scourges of idiocy that they won't go away? Now they're one and the same. *sigh*

Wow. :boggled:

WildCat
21st January 2010, 07:40 PM
The Flying Spaghetti Monster started it. And He'll finish it too.

Travis
22nd January 2010, 04:33 AM
Exactly. Religion is how it started. That's my point. Both sides use their religious texts as "proof" of their right to the land.

I was agreeing with you.

funk de fino
22nd January 2010, 06:40 AM
I always thought it was Tinfoil Timothy that started it?