Old Testament Prophecies

[Ignatowski]

I have someone on another forum telling me that there have been Old Testament Prophecies that have come true. I did a search and only came up with biased sites claiming , of course, fulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament.

My question is, are there any prophecies from the Bible (Old Testament in particular) that came true, or is it more of the same "the Bible says it so it must be true" banter.

[Doctor Evil]

Ask him for details. After all its his claim.

The bible does tell of a prophet warning the Israelites from the Assyrians. (Forgot his name.) But of course, the bible was written after that period ...

[Ignatowski]

Ask him for details. After all its his claim.

The bible does tell of a prophet warning the Israelites from the Assyrians. (Forgot his name.) But of course, the bible was written after that period ...


Yeah he's getting back to me on the details...he has to do a little research.

[rjh01]

If you make enough predictions some will come true. Other predictions are vague enough to be fitted to something that has happened. One of my favorites is in the New testament. It predicts the end of the world before the readers are all dead. That means sometime before 200AD. So sorry it did not happen.

[arthwollipot]

A passage is only ever seen to be a prophecy of an event after the event has taken place. This is how it is for the Old Testament.

[Lothian]

I have someone on another forum telling me that there have been Old Testament Prophecies that have come true. I did a search and only came up with biased sites claiming , of course, fulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament.

My question is, are there any prophecies from the Bible (Old Testament in particular) that came true, or is it more of the same "the Bible says it so it must be true" banter.We have a similar poster here. What I find most interesting, other than many of the 'true' prophecies are mistranslations or there is no evidence for them being fulfilled, is the consequence.

The argument seems to be because some O.T. prophecies are fulfilled every word of the N.T. must be accepted as the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

In reality a prophecy being fulfilled only tells us that that particular prophecy was fulfilled.

We can not even attribute supernatural 'foresight' to the person making the prophecy. With millennia ahead of the O.T. writers there has been plenty of time for similar events to occur and to be linked back. However with some of the O.T. & N.T. claims it appears likely that if some predicted events did actually occur it is because people were fully aware of the prophesy and were deliberatly trying to fulfil it.

[CriticalSock]

I know that the J.W.'s say that the prophecy in Daniel about the statue being made out of all sorts of different stuff has been fulfilled. I think that the current Anglo-American arrangement is meant to be the fulfillment of the feet of iron mixed with clay bit.

Not sure who is meant to be the clay and who the iron... Bet the religion heads could start a war over that, given half a chance...

[zooterkin]

We have a similar poster here. What I find most interesting, other than many of the 'true' prophecies are mistranslations or there is no evidence for them being fulfilled, is the consequence.

The argument seems to be because some O.T. prophecies are fulfilled every word of the N.T. must be accepted as the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


I think another aspect is that the prophecies are supposed to be divinely inspired; the fact that they come true is meant to prove a) that god exists and b) that he's speaking to the prophet, and therefore other things which the prophet says should be heeded.

[Kopji]

My question is, are there any prophecies from the Bible (Old Testament in particular) that came true, or is it more of the same "the Bible says it so it must be true" banter.

Well, yes. I'd say you have a good grasp of this.

Banter though, implies a friendly exchange where if you disagreed you'd both just laugh and have another beer.

[TimCallahan]

Not to blow my own horn, but I dealt pretty thoroughly with these prophecies in my book Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillent?. What I found was that many of the propbhecies were written avfter the fact (Jesus "predicting" the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in gospels written after the Temple was destroyed, though that's New Testament), were too vague to pin down (God will send fire uon your strongholds) or were predictable without resorting to the supernatural agency, such as Isaiah telling King Ahaz of Judah that the nations attacking him, Israel and the principality of Damascus, would soon be destroyed. These nations were in revolt aginst the Assyrian Empire, and the Assyrians were on their way to stomp them.

Those OT (and NT) prophecies that are to any degree specific, written before the fact and are beyond the powerr to predict by simple reasoning are universally wrong - including specifically those the fundies claim were fulfilled. Give me their specific claims, and I'll demolish them for you.

[Hokulele]

And there are always the bits of the New Testament that were made up to specifically address the prophecies in the Old Testament (see Matthew and his Rodeo Jesus riding two donkeys).

[Ignatowski]

Not to blow my own horn, but I dealt pretty thoroughly with these prophecies in my book Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillent?. What I found was that many of the propbhecies were written avfter the fact (Jesus "predicting" the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in gospels written after the Temple was destroyed, though that's New Testament), were too vague to pin down (God will send fire uon your strongholds) or were predictable without resorting to the supernatural agency, such as Isaiah telling King Ahaz of Judah that the nations attacking him, Israel and the principality of Damascus, would soon be destroyed. These nations were in revolt aginst the Assyrian Empire, and the Assyrians were on their way to stomp them.

Those OT (and NT) prophecies that are to any degree specific, written before the fact and are beyond the powerr to predict by simple reasoning are universally wrong - including specifically those the fundies claim were fulfilled. Give me their specific claims, and I'll demolish them for you.

Thanks Tim. As soon as I get a response with specific claims I'll post them.

[stijndeloose]

Hi, Ignatowski!

The problem with alleged prophecy fulfillment is that virtually all of these claimed 'successful' prophecies are severe cases of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter).

What you need are detailed criteria for what would constitute 'genuine prophecy'. Over at the RDF forum (http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=92232&start=50), after some input from other forum members, I came up with the following:

A genuine prophecy would require five characteristics:

(1) the prophecy must be clear and unambiguous and include a clear description of the agents, actions, localities, time. In other words, it must clearly and unambiguously state the "who", "where", "what" and "when". It should not be open to interpretation.

(2) the prophecy must have been made *before* and not after the event that allegedly fulfills the prophecy. This needs to be established by clear, scientific and historical evidence.

(3) the prophecy must have been made not just *before* an event but far enough in advance of it to make educated guesswork impossible.

(4) the event that allegedly fulfilled the prophecy did in fact happen, fully and exactly as predicted, at the predicted time. The fulfillment needs to be сonclusively established as historical fact by historical evidence and independent, contemporary reports.

(5) the prophecy must not be one that could have been deliberately contrived fulfillment in an attempt to bring about.


I haven't seen anyone come up with a prophecy that would pass all five of these.

Ask you interlocutor if he agrees on these criteria before you start discussing any prophecies.

If he doesn't, ask why. I doubt he'll come up with a decent explanation.

[Ignatowski]

Hi, Ignatowski!

The problem with alleged prophecy fulfillment is that virtually all of these claimed 'successful' prophecies are severe cases of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter).

What you need are detailed criteria for what would constitute 'genuine prophecy'. Over at the RDF forum (http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=92232&start=50), after some input from other forum members, I came up with the following:




I haven't seen anyone come up with a prophecy that would pass all five of these.

Ask you interlocutor if he agrees on these criteria before you start discussing any prophecies.

If he doesn't, ask why. I doubt he'll come up with a decent explanation.

Thanks stijndeloose, I'm going to use these.

[stijndeloose]

Thanks stijndeloose, I'm going to use these.

Good luck!
Supernaturalists and biblical apologists hate criteria! :D

[Ignatowski]

Good luck!
Supernaturalists and biblical apologists hate criteria! :D

yeah...they don't like to confuse the issues with reason and common sense.

[stijndeloose]

yeah...they don't like to confuse the issues with reason and common sense.

AND they don't like methodical consistency!

Good luck, and keep us informed!

Cheers!

S.

[Ignatowski]

AND they don't like methodical consistency!

Good luck, and keep us informed!

Cheers!

S.

i will. On a side note...anyone ever realize how many posters here use their cat as their avatar? I think it's a conspiracy.

[stijndeloose]

i will. On a side note...anyone ever realize how many posters here use their cat as their avatar? I think it's a conspiracy.

YES! I've noticed the same thing on the RDF forum!

Cool, innit? Felidae and panterae rule! :D

[Ignatowski]

Just an update...I got a response from someone else saying that many prophets of the OT foretold the life of JC, and that should be enough...but since I don't believe , it won't be enough. Of course nothing specific...I asked her for specifics, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Sherman Bay]

Nostradamus prophecies have "come true," as long as they are ambiguous, subject to multiple interpretations, and analyzed in the minds of true believers.

Much like biblical "prophecies."

[Pure Argent]

YES! I've noticed the same thing on the RDF forum!

Cool, innit? Felidae and panterae rule! :D

:O

stijndeloose! Dude, I thought you were dead!

[stijndeloose]

:O

stijndeloose! Dude, I thought you were dead!

Don't get yer hopes up! ;)

No... just been spending more time over at the RDF than here, I'm afraid. I'll try to be a good lad and spend some more time here now! Promise!

[TimCallahan]

Just an update...I got a response from someone else saying that many prophets of the OT foretold the life of JC, and that should be enough...but since I don't believe , it won't be enough. Of course nothing specific...I asked her for specifics, but I'm not holding my breath.

Often they use the Immanuel prophecy from Isaiah 7:14 - 16 as a prediction, at least, of the virgin birth:

Therefore the Lord himself will give yu a sign. Behold, a young women shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel He shall ea curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose kings you are in dread will be deserted.

One way to translate the name "Immanuel" is "God with us," hence the interpretation that Isaiah was referring to Jesus. However, in Hebrew the voerb "to be" is dropped and simply understood, as it is in the Latin phrase pax vobiscum. This is translated as "Peace be with you." However, the phrase, if literally translated, reads, "Peace with you." In the context of the belief system of the people of Judah at the time of Isaiah, Immanuel would actually mean "God is with us."

Often the words "young woman" are translated as "virgin." A virgin bearng a child would indeed be a prediction of the virgin birth. However, the word in Hebrew that specifically means "virgin" is bethula, whereas the word used in Is. 7:14 is almah, which merely means a young woman who may or may not be a virgin.

Finally, the whole idea that the Immanuel prophecy refers to Jesus fails utterly with the prediction in Is. 7:16:

For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose kings you are in dread will be deserted.

The two kings who were attackng Judah were Rezin, king of Syria and Pekah, king of Israel. This took place in 735 BCE. The age at which a child would be able to choose between good and evil could be as early as 7 or as late as 12. The prophecy that the lands would be deserted by that time was hardly supernatural in origin. Israel and Syria were in revolt against the Assyrian Empire. They wanted Judah to join their alliance against the Assyrians. When Azaz, king of Judah demurred, they attacked Judah, trying to force it into their alliance. Tiglath-Pileser III, king of Assyria was on his way to put down the revolt.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with Jesus.

[Ignatowski]

Much to my surprise, the guy admitted that there were no prophecies that were so detailed. He did , however, basically say that the reason God does this is because he works in mysterious ways.

[stijndeloose]

Much to my surprise, the guy admitted that there were no prophecies that were so detailed. He did , however, basically say that the reason God does this is because he works in mysterious ways.

:D

That's funny, so he basically agreed that prophecies cannot be used as evidence for anything.

Good. Keep up the good work! ;)

[TimCallahan]

Much to my surprise, the guy admitted that there were no prophecies that were so detailed. He did , however, basically say that the reason God does this is because he works in mysterious ways.

The usual cop-out.

[Ignatowski]

The usual cop-out.

Yeah that, and he said because they happened sp long ago, we have to lower the stanadards for available evidence, and that some scholars take the cumulative effect of the biblical prophecies over any one particular prophecy as evidence. Sounds like kaka to me.

[stijndeloose]

Yeah that, and he said because they happened sp long ago, we have to lower the stanadards for available evidence...

In translation: "Evidence is not as important as my rectally erected blind assertions, therefore gOD."


Sounds like kaka to me.

Because it is. :D

[Theophage]

Yeah that, and he said because they happened sp long ago, we have to lower the stanadards for available evidence, and that some scholars take the cumulative effect of the biblical prophecies over any one particular prophecy as evidence. Sounds like kaka to me.

100 failed prophecies = 1 fulfilled prophecy? Gotta love that God-Math.

[Ignatowski]

100 failed prophecies = 1 fulfilled prophecy? Gotta love that God-Math.

They gotta make it work somehow.

[TimCallahan]

Much to my surprise, the guy admitted that there were no prophecies that were so detailed. He did , however, basically say that the reason God does this is because he works in mysterious ways.

I'm rather surprised the guy hasn't brought up two old canards: the prophecy of the fall of Babylon and the prophecy of the fall of Tyre. I can demolish both of these, too, should he bring them up.

[Trent Wray]

I was thinking about this the other day ... the way "prophecy" seems to work for most people in the sense that it is usually so vague as to be verifiable only AFTER a specific event occurs that fits the description of the prophecy ---

And I'm not defending anything, just exploring :)

But what would happen if someone came along and gave specifics in a prophecy? "On Feb 22, 2010 such and such will happen at such and such a place and it will be dire," etc etc ......

First of all, those who would ignore the "prophecy" would ignore it regardless, so there would be little benefit to them having the specifics. They would wait until that time to see if anything happened at all. And those that wouldn't ignore it would most likely try to change it ... and if they were actually successful in changing a prophetic event, then the prophecy either:

1) fulfilled it's purpose by warning the right people to prevent the dire event
or
2) was b.s. in the first place and meant nothing

If the said event did come to pass and those who ignored it were effected as well as those who "believed" ... then what a load of bull%#*it to make both the believers and unbelievers suffer from the dire event.

So in other words, I'm wondering if prophecy itself (assuming for the sake of my own exploration that it's legit on some level) isn't so much to warn and foretell and "prove" any kind of divine foresight, rather it is shrouded purposefully to serve as a sort of retro "looking back after the fact" tool .... something that when it does come to pass makes the believer look back at the signposts now glaring at him to teach him/her something. Again, in other words ... prophetic foresight is actually for educational hindsight.

I'm not sure I'm doing a good job at explaining my thoughts.

Like I said ... I'm not defending it. But I am fascinated by the idea of any kind of "peering into time", regardless of whether or not it's origin is claimed as divine or not. I personally haven't made up my mind completely on whether or not it's a legit phenomenon, as I have two instances in particular that I've witnessed in my adult life that I have no logical explanation for. One was claimed as divine revelation, the other was claimed as natural clairvoyance. Needless to say those instances have kept my "spark of explanation" open ...

[stijndeloose]

Like I said ... I'm not defending it. But I am fascinated by the idea of any kind of "peering into time", regardless of whether or not it's origin is claimed as divine or not. I personally haven't made up my mind completely on whether or not it's a legit phenomenon, as I have two instances in particular that I've witnessed in my adult life that I have no logical explanation for. One was claimed as divine revelation, the other was claimed as natural clairvoyance. Needless to say those instances have kept my "spark of explanation" open ...

Anecdotal evidence isn't exactly evidence, though. And as soon as the 'gift of prophecy' is investigated rigorously, it disappears. Odd, innit?

It'd be cool if it were real, only I have seen no evidence that it is.

[Marduk]

http://faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm
All the claimed prophecies of the old testament, and why they all failed
Ironic I find that this thread has just been raised from the dead and no one prophesied that
Good to see you again Trent, even if you havent posted since June
:D

the prophecy of the fall of Babylon.
Unless Jeremiah mentioned the real reason, rising internal inflation and economic ruin he got it wrong anyway
and what did the Medes have to do with it, they had ceased to exist by the time Babylon fell
:D

[Aepervius]

i will. On a side note...anyone ever realize how many posters here use their cat as their avatar? I think it's a conspiracy.

Oh Noes ! You just brought me to change my avatar ! But it won't be ONE cat... :)