America's own Yellow Bamboo - KYUSHO JITSU TUITE [Archive]

Kevin_Lowe

11th January 2004, 06:42 AM

I believe the poster "Groundstrength" may be involved with this lot, or maybe not. He's certainly posted about "tuite jutsu" or something with a very similar name that I had never heard elsewhere until now. Groundstrength also claimed to be able to perform sound knockouts, which I think is highly unlikely to be anything other than delusion.

Then again, they might just be using the same terms and have nothing else to do with each other.

I have heard from rec.martial-arts regulars that Dillman only demonstrates his supposed powers on his own students, and so his claims are fairly questionable.

A few "touch knockouts" actually work and have known physiological bases. It takes more than a touch, of course, but a good poke in the carotid sinus ( a blobby thing in our necks) can cause people to pass out as their blood pressure control system goes out of whack. "Vagal inhibition" is the western medical term for causing a heart attack by victimising the relevant nerves.

That said, these techniques are parlour tricks rather than useful fighting techniques as far as anyone has ever demonstrated to general satisfaction. If you can hit a teensy point hard enough to cause a knockdown, you could have just hit them on the chin and got the same effect.

No Answers

11th January 2004, 08:03 AM

Well, yah Kevin, yah and no. You could have simply hit them on the chin, but the chin is not always the best target presented in the moment of the fight.
These touch and sound "attacks" are supposed to be appealing because they're 1)esoteric and 2)not messy.

But as you say; if I want someone down now, I'll wreck their knee.

Kevin_Lowe

11th January 2004, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by No Answers
Well, yah Kevin, yah and no. You could have simply hit them on the chin, but the chin is not always the best target presented in the moment of the fight.

It's big enough to hit, though, which the touch-knockout points are not. Or rather, no one has ever demonstrated the ability to hit those points effectively against a competent, resisting opponent. I can't say that it's impossible, but the evidence is that you would have to be such a superior fighter that (as I said) you could just hit them on the chin at will anyway.

It's safe to say that Dillman et. al. do not have such skill.

These touch and sound "attacks" are supposed to be appealing because they're 1)esoteric and 2)not messy.

I believe you are right. No one would believe it if I told them I could teach them how to box like Ali without ever getting hit in training, and without ever having to exercise hard. But they'll believe it if you tell them a tale about secret pressure point knockouts.

But as you say; if I want someone down now, I'll wreck their knee.

It's not just you. There are plenty of people in the world with the demonstrated ability to kick a competent, resisting opponent in the knee. It happens in thai boxing all the time. But no one has demonstrated the ability to effectively hit a competent, resisting opponent in the carotid sinus. So the idea that these are more than parlour tricks is unproven to the best of my knowledge.

Patricio Elicer

11th January 2004, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by LLL
Some videos:There's only one thing that these videos prove: that the people fall

LLL

11th January 2004, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe

But no one has demonstrated the ability to effectively hit a competent, resisting opponent in the carotid sinus.

...if only they stopped just there, I wouldn't even care, but when they don't even bother to touch the opponent... There used to be an incredibly stupid video about Jack Hogan 'KO'ing some guy by just staring at him...

Kevin_Lowe

12th January 2004, 12:58 AM

I think you want:

www.kyushoworld.net/ryukyu/website ko 05.wmv.

Very Yellow Bamboo.

Rolfe

12th January 2004, 05:56 AM

Totally off topic musing.

Last night, listening to radio interview with Michelle Yeoh. She tore an anterior cruciate ligament near the start of the filming of "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". She was reluctant to have surgery, because of the time involved, but she could barely walk as it was.

Her surgeon told her that if she was a good girl and did her physio, she'd be functioning in a month and as good as new in three. She looked dubious. He said, look, I've fixed up football players with this and got them back on the field.

She said to herself, OK, if I was on the opposing team and I knew you'd had a problem with your knee, you'd be in serious trouble. So if this surgery can cope with that risk, I should be OK on a film set where everybody is trying to protect me rather than KO me.

Moral of the story. Do not agree to play football against a team containing Michelle Yeoh.

Normal service on this thread will now be resumed.

Rolfe.

Keneke

12th January 2004, 07:41 AM

Even the normal fighting video (http://www.geocities.com/uk_dbbai2/KOs.mpg) looks staged. Or was the guy delivering sound attacks from a short range? No matter, the guy didn't even get into a stance.

That's a big whatever, good buddy.

Hamish

12th January 2004, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
I think you want:

www.kyushoworld.net/ryukyu/website ko 05.wmv.

Very Yellow Bamboo.

Nah. The effect can be explained by simple halitosis!

Hilarious!:roll:

No Answers

12th January 2004, 08:56 AM

And where's the dignity? These dingleberries taking the fall, knowing nothing's happening to them, to prove an attack that doesn't exist?

Real fighters are trained to stay fighting.

GroundStrength

12th January 2004, 11:58 AM

I believe the poster "Groundstrength" may be involved with this lot, or maybe not. He's certainly posted about "tuite jutsu" or something with a very similar name that I had never heard elsewhere until now.

Used to be the Texas Representative for DKI(Dillman Karate International). George gave me my start in learning about striking points and using them in grappling situations. Have studied with many others on the subject over the years.

Groundstrength also claimed to be able to perform sound knockouts, which I think is highly unlikely to be anything other than delusion.

Not by using sound only. Sound with a grappling motion. Is sound the mechanism? Dunno. Maybe it is an increased focus or intent on my part that does the trick. The point is that there is no-strike.

A few "touch knockouts" actually work and have known physiological bases. It takes more than a touch, of course, but a good poke in the carotid sinus ( a blobby thing in our necks) can cause people to pass out as their blood pressure control system goes out of whack. "Vagal inhibition" is the western medical term for causing a heart attack by victimising the relevant nerves.

True. We call the point Stomach-9 for learning purposes. This is just one of a few that will produce a KO by itself.

That said, these techniques are parlour tricks rather than useful fighting techniques as far as anyone has ever demonstrated to general satisfaction. If you can hit a teensy point hard enough to cause a knockdown, you could have just hit them on the chin and got the same effect.
If this is all you were to study I would agree. I can use it and have in real confrontations on the door and on the street. The activation area of these points are about the size of a quarter, not so teensy after all. You could hit them on the chin, but I can do it with less force due to proper angle and direction.

But as you say; if I want someone down now, I'll wreck their knee.
True, but don't you want to know how to do it with less force? There are points around the knees that will cause the joint to release. Of course proper angle and direction is needed.

As to the No-touch stuff, it has had no-effect on me (tried by many) and my personal opinion is that it is worthless in a self-defense situation.

I have stated in the past that I am willing to do a session for TAM III on kyusho/tuite and have volunteers feel what it is all about. This is not a challenge or meant to be agressive, I just know it works and it would give me a great excuse with the wife to go to TAM III.

GroundStrength

12th January 2004, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
I think you want:

www.kyushoworld.net/ryukyu/website ko 05.wmv.

Very Yellow Bamboo.

Jesus I wish they'd quit doing that.

!Xx+-Rational-+xX!

12th January 2004, 02:36 PM

Mr. James Randi of the James Randi Educational Foundation has already disproven the supernatural! We know this!

LLL

13th January 2004, 03:09 AM

Originally posted by GroundStrength

Jesus I wish they'd quit doing that.

GS, come discuss to www.bullshido.com, I'm sure many people there would want to hear your opinions.

Kevin_Lowe

13th January 2004, 06:12 AM

Since I've just learned how to do links, I heartily recommend...

http://www.sherdog.com/videos/roycegracie/roycegracievideo.shtm

...as a companion piece to the various silliness on the sites linked to earlier.

The contrast with the kyusho videos is obvious even to the amateur.

Hannibal

13th January 2004, 06:39 AM

"Dim Mak" is one of those perennial debating points in martial arts, the same as Ki/Qi/Chi. I have used points "live" in many situations, but usually these are incidental if not accidental.

It is very hard to prove supernatural elements to it because if you hit anything hard enough you will get a response. Student demos prove nothing except the loyalty of the student.

Not one single "pressure point" exponent has EVER proven themselves in MMA or NHB. They usually say "ahhh, but we are too deadly". This roughly translates as "I can't fight someone who fights back". Ryan Parker (UFC 7 if memory serves) was such a stylist and got his arse handed to him on a plate.

That said, I actually quite like the work of Earle Montague, and his videos are interesting to watch. That said, I have never seen anything that cannot be adequately explained with mechanics as opposed to this all encompassing chi we hear about.

GroundStrength, why did you leave DKI out of interest?

Wudang

13th January 2004, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by Hannibal

That said, I actually quite like the work of Earle Montague, and his videos are interesting to watch.

Shouldn't that be in the "guilty movie pleasures" thread?

Yeah, I've got a video showing a wise pranker demonstrating "advanced principles of I-Chuan using electromagnetic field for self-defence" and it's good to watch with some mates and a bottle of something.
I met one of Erle's guys teaching at Rencontres Jasnieres a few years back and he didn't half talk a load of fertiliser. Shot his mouth off a lot but backed off when asked to show what he could do - in friendly pushing-hands, nothing heavy. It's one of the key points at RJ that everyone joins in so people were not impressed. I have one of Erle's books - it's not one I re-read. A good book on internal martial arts is "Dachengchuan" By WANG Xuanjie - BS meter barely twitches.

GroundStrength

13th January 2004, 08:15 AM

It is very hard to prove supernatural elements to it because if you hit anything hard enough you will get a response. Student demos prove nothing except the loyalty of the student
I for one don't claim that any supernatural elements are involved. IMO it is all physiological and repeatable. I agree about student demos, there is a desire to please the teacher no matter how much ability the teacher may or may not have.
I look at most of the "KO's" on the internet and also still attend seminars and the techniques being done either are laughable from a practical standpoint or wrong from the standpoint of the model(won't cause the effect seen).
I use the TCM model as a teaching tool for kyusho, nothing more.

Not one single "pressure point" exponent has EVER proven themselves in MMA or NHB. They usually say "ahhh, but we are too deadly". This roughly translates as "I can't fight someone who fights back". Ryan Parker (UFC 7 if memory serves) was such a stylist and got his arse handed to him on a plate.
True. However I give you the UFC "Rules" (Kind of funny for no-holds-barred fighting) from the official site

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.

I have placed in bold the ones that pertain specifically to what most kyusho people will do in a situation.
Funny that every rule seems like something I would do in a "real" fight. So even if "pressure point" exponent does fight he can not use the things that have been trained.

That said, I actually quite like the work of Earle Montague
Erle is a great guy and loves what he does.

That said, I have never seen anything that cannot be adequately explained with mechanics as opposed to this all encompassing chi we hear about.
Me either.

GroundStrength, why did you leave DKI out of interest?

Mainly because I started training Xingyiquan, but I did not like the move towards the no-touch stuff. I still love George and Kim and am happy for their success (they have bought Ali's training camp and turned it into a bed and breakfast with a training area).
Xingyiquan is all body mechanics and correct movement, but I looks more supernatural than anything I have seen before. Now, the whole body is my "pressure point"

A good book on internal martial arts is "Dachengchuan" By WANG Xuanjie
One of the best. Actually thru my xingyiquan training, I have been exposed to this art as well and have begun to look into it because of its simplicity.

Hannibal

14th January 2004, 11:21 AM

Hi GroundStrength!

I think you'll find that the rules you have printed are from the NEW UFC which was brought so it could be sanctioned by various states and athletic comissions. In the "old school" (the one Ryan got whupped in) the rules were "no biting, eye gouging or fish hooking"....that was it! They were great!

I am technically what you would class as a "hard" stylist so I am naturally a bit more skeptical about the more esoteric elements in martial arts.

Wudang, I agree that a lot of what is said is BS, but I STILL like Erles stuff. He is a bit of a pariah in the internal community isn't he? I know he does NOT like Dillman (ST9 KO's at demos etc)

On another note, would KO points qualify for the $1m?

Wudang

14th January 2004, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Hannibal

I am technically what you would class as a "hard" stylist so I am naturally a bit more skeptical about the more esoteric elements in martial arts.

Internal just refers to a different way of using the muscles - no better, no worse. Anyone who says different is trying to sell something.
Oh and my teacher, Dan Docherty, isn't on every internal stylists xmas card list either.

GroundStrength

14th January 2004, 11:56 AM

I think you'll find that the rules you have printed are from the NEW UFC which was brought so it could be sanctioned by various states and athletic comissions. In the "old school" (the one Ryan got whupped in) the rules were "no biting, eye gouging or fish hooking"....that was it! They were great!

Oh yeah my favorite match was in UFC III the kenpo dude vs the 600lb sumo giant.:cool:

I am technically what you would class as a "hard" stylist so I am naturally a bit more skeptical about the more esoteric elements in martial arts.

I was as well for the first twenty years or so. Until I met a man named Ed Hampton who destroyed my paradigm. I think that Lou De Xiu comes thru the UK at times your should go and check him out. He is from the same lineage and makes it look magical. Real Internal martial arts are all about relaxed-whole body power.

Wudang, I agree that a lot of what is said is BS, but I STILL like Erles stuff. He is a bit of a pariah in the internal community isn't he? I know he does NOT like Dillman (ST9 KO's at demos etc)

I think that Erle is in the UK now and he does not like George.

On another note, would KO points qualify for the $1m?

Damn, don't I wish.

LLL

14th January 2004, 11:59 AM

Damn, don't I wish. [/B][/QUOTE]

Have you asked!? They very well might...

GroundStrength

14th January 2004, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by LLL

Have you asked!? They very well might...

I have sent an e-mail to randi@randi.org and a copy to jref@randi.org.

I'll let you know.

Wudang

14th January 2004, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by GroundStrength

I think that Lou De Xiu comes thru the UK at times your should go and check him out. He is from the same lineage and makes it look magical. Real Internal martial arts are all about relaxed-whole body power.

Plus Aarvo Tucker teaches in the manchester area once a month and he trained under Lou De Xiu. See http://www.taichiunion.com. Aarvo's a good guy and knows what he's doing.

GroundStrength

14th January 2004, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Wudang

Plus Aarvo Tucker teaches in the manchester area once a month and he trained under Lou De Xiu. See http://www.taichiunion.com. Aarvo's a good guy and knows what he's doing.

No doubt about that!

thaiboxerken

14th January 2004, 07:39 PM

Pressure point KO's? I doubt it.

I personally think Dillman is just another charlatan, just like John Edward.. just selling a different myth.

Is there a rule in the MMA and UFC tournaments that specifically states that atemi (pressure point striking) is forbidden? I don't think there is.

Light tapping or touching KO's is a paranormal claim, as there is no basis in science for it. Who wants to be a millionaire?

Heck, the sound-grappling KO is likely a trick as well. People cannot KO people by yelling.

There seems to be 2 claims that qualify for the JREF money here. Will there be a winner? I doubt it.

Kevin_Lowe

15th January 2004, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by GroundStrength

Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.

I have placed in bold the ones that pertain specifically to what most kyusho people will do in a situation.
Funny that every rule seems like something I would do in a "real" fight. So even if "pressure point" exponent does fight he can not use the things that have been trained.

Perhaps you could clarify some of that for me.

Now I'm not a MMA competitor by any possible stretch of the imagination. I do BJJ and I've done a few other things in the past, but I'm speaking more from second-hand stories than personal experience.

My understanding is that small joint manipulation simply will not stop a professional MMAist. Partially because they get broken fingers and toes in training and they're used to pain, and partially because they are often hopped up on painkillers or worse during fights. Same for clawing, pinching, twisting, scratching and chinese burns.

Similarly, striking downward using the point of the elbow was legal in the old days and is still perfectly legal in many non-UFC MMA events. It's just not very good at stopping professionals.

Striking the spine or the back of the head is not only very difficult because people keep facing their opponent, but it's also something that can end a fight even without spooky pressure points. (Or it can not. There is a downloadable video at sherdog.com of a chap by the name of Tank Abbot, who had an awfully powerful punch, thumping people. It includes scenes of him repeatedly thumping people in the back of the head. They lived).

I can't say much about clavicle-grabbing, because it's not something I've ever discussed with anyone knowledgeable.

Please do correct me if you think any of the above is wrong. As I said, this is all second hand so I am open to that possibility.

But it sounds to me that the things you say that tuite users would do are not going to win you any MMA events. Unless they plan to win by grabbing everyone's clavicles. Whereas pressure point strikes that cause unconsciousness seem to be perfectly legal under UFC rules.

This leads up to three questions.

Firstly, why haven't any of the kyusho folks knocked some people out in the UFC? Do they need to set up their techniques with finger locks or something, or what?

Secondly, there are competitions around without the rules you said hamper kyusho techniques. The vale tudo competitions in Brazil spring to mind. Do you think that any of the kyusho folks could be talked into demonstrating their skills in such a venue, or do you suspect that they would find some excuse not to?

Thirdly, have you ever dropped into a BJJ or MMA school and said that you'd like to have a crack at making either pressure points, or your current internal system, work against a resisting opponent? If so, what happened? If not, would you be interested in doing so if I could find a school in your area for you?

Cards on the table: I'm skeptical about the usefulness of both internal arts and pressure points. But if this stuff does work as advertised, I want to know about it.

Wudang

15th January 2004, 06:12 AM

There's tai chi guys in the UK who train with Dan Docherty who fight Vale Tudo - Neil Rosiak for one.

thaiboxerken

15th January 2004, 06:37 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe

My understanding is that small joint manipulation simply will not stop a professional MMAist. Partially because they get broken fingers and toes in training and they're used to pain, and partially because they are often hopped up on painkillers or worse during fights. Same for clawing, pinching, twisting, scratching and chinese burns.

Well.. in general, people don't feel pain during fights because of adrenaline. Otherwise, you are somewhat correct. It is possible to control a person using small joint manipulation but it's very hard. I don't know why the rule is there myself, probably something to do with state laws and sanctioning.

Similarly, striking downward using the point of the elbow was legal in the old days and is still perfectly legal in many non-UFC MMA events. It's just not very good at stopping professionals.

Actually, it isn't that tough to do. In Muay Thai, this was a legal technique until a few years ago. This method was used to strike the back of the head, neck and spine. Permanent injuries were quite common. This is probably the reason it's a rule now.

I can't say much about clavicle-grabbing, because it's not something I've ever discussed with anyone knowledgeable.

This is another case of permanent injury prevention. Clavicles take foreve to heal. However, during the fight this injury will do little to stop a fighter. Just another "legal" issue rule, I'm thinking.

But it sounds to me that the things you say that tuite users would do are not going to win you any MMA events. Unless they plan to win by grabbing everyone's clavicles. Whereas pressure point strikes that cause unconsciousness seem to be perfectly legal under UFC rules.

This is the point I brought up as well. There are no rules against atemi. Why isn't it being used? I can guess that it's the same reason that Sylvia Browne isn't showing up for the JREF challenge.

Cards on the table: I'm skeptical about the usefulness of both internal arts and pressure points. But if this stuff does work as advertised, I want to know about it.

Me too. You bring up some good points. I don't buy into the "internal/external" art descriptions either. To me, the internal guys look like they're doing the same thing as the external guys. The difference being that the internal guys tend to add my mysticalness into it and that they claim to have superpowers.

!Xx+-Rational-+xX!

15th January 2004, 07:32 AM

With dreams the believers might claim that altered brain states like REM during sleep show dreams to be true. This is ridiculous and typical of quacks because it’s the same thing as the God of the gaps argument! Believers are supposing a mystical dream world in place of proven delusions that science hasn’t completely explained in natural terms. One thing that science does tell us for certain is that dreams don’t exist in the mind or anywhere in reality! As rational skeptics we must conclude that these altered brain states which occur during sleep are only states where the brain is more open to receiving false memories!

GroundStrength

15th January 2004, 08:15 AM

Well Hi TBK, wondered when one of my posts would catch your angst and anger issues:)

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

Well.. in general, people don't feel pain during fights because of adrenaline. Otherwise, you are somewhat correct. It is possible to control a person using small joint manipulation but it's very hard. I don't know why the rule is there myself, probably something to do with state laws and sanctioning.
Mostly because you don't undestand how to perform small joint manipulation. The best in the world is Wally Jay (Small Circle Jujutsu, who is on the board that my rank comes from), couple that with the points on the fingers and wrists and you get something happening to the opponent called cross-extensor reflex action(Kind of like pinching a crawdad's back)

Actually, it isn't that tough to do. In Muay Thai, this was a legal technique until a few years ago. This method was used to strike the back of the head, neck and spine. Permanent injuries were quite common. This is probably the reason it's a rule now.
True, but not how a kyusho stylist would use it. It would be used in the clinch or in close in grappling to drive down into the ribs, clavicle, solar plexus or sternum with a nice fa-jin shake.

This is another case of permanent injury prevention. Clavicles take foreve to heal. However, during the fight this injury will do little to stop a fighter. Just another "legal" issue rule, I'm thinking.
Yes, but there are along the clavicles that cause the knees to release and a grab a shake will cause even a "professional" to let go.

This is the point I brought up as well. There are no rules against atemi. Why isn't it being used? I can guess that it's the same reason that Sylvia Browne isn't showing up for the JREF challenge.
What we focus on is attacking the points to destroy the limbs. Many points directly control the joints. One of the things we use them for is to cause the joints to release allowing for an easier break. I personally haven't fought in them because I have a wife and four kids to take care of and I don't care about "matches".
In the times that I have needed to defend myself it has worked as promised (however the touch was not light by any means). My point is if a fight is a fight then anything is legal. Hell I 'll reach down your pants and pull it off if I have to.

Firstly, why haven't any of the kyusho folks knocked some people out in the UFC? Do they need to set up their techniques with finger locks or something, or what?
Don't know. But no, we don't use the fingers to set up KO's, we use the arms mostly (because that is usually what is coming at you)

Secondly, there are competitions around without the rules you said hamper kyusho techniques. The vale tudo competitions in Brazil spring to mind. Do you think that any of the kyusho folks could be talked into demonstrating their skills in such a venue, or do you suspect that they would find some excuse not to?
Actually a friend in the UK(actually he's moved to Cyprus now) is training a few good men to do just this I believe. I can check with him today and get back with you.

Thirdly, have you ever dropped into a BJJ or MMA school and said that you'd like to have a crack at making either pressure points, or your current internal system, work against a resisting opponent? If so, what happened? If not, would you be interested in doing so if I could find a school in your area for you?
Never a BJJ school but several classical jujutsu schools and they were impressed. There are a few here in Houston but if you would like to reccommend one I'd be glad to go.

Cards on the table: I'm skeptical about the usefulness of both internal arts and pressure points. But if this stuff does work as advertised, I want to know about it. [/B]
I was too until I was hit with it. Realize I am not talking about the no-touch or energy/chi/ki stuff but good science and good body mechanics.

[QUOTE]I don't buy into the "internal/external" art descriptions either. To me, the internal guys look like they're doing the same thing as the external guys.
So sad for you but hey keep banging you shins against the wall.

Hannibal

15th January 2004, 09:12 AM

I don't buy into the internal/external either as a general rule, but people love labels for some reason...

Wudang, didn't Dan win by KO in a SE Asian tournament in the early 80's? If so what technique did he use? The reason I ask is because it would be interesting to see full contact applied Taijiquan as opposed to theory.

I don't perform any official internal forms, but I use a few movements to relax myself every so often. Plus I find them a good way to rehearse finer points of combat moves. I think that there is an issue here with regards to pressure points. They are really an ancilliary system as far as I am concerned. Anyone who doubts there efficiency hasn't had Marc McFann throw them with a philtrum hold (about the only pressure point that has ever worked on me and boy did it ever!)

I hear a lot about fa-jing, but it is just simple mechanics. It is not really different from the "double hip" in shukokai (Peter Consterdine being a very powerful exponent).

In relation to the $1m, we need to set clear parameters early on. Like I said before, anything hit hard enough will drop/hurt the opponent. I would like to see the light touch/no touch KO work on a non-complliant opponent.

A word on minor joint locks - they are bloody hard to get on! I have had more than my fair share of street situations and usually a minor lock has to be set up by a strike or more frequently a larger lock (e.g. lock the arm in a bar then slide to the wrist to the finger/thumb). I find the arm bar/wrist combo to be most effective when restraining or arresting.

An anecdote on single shot KO's happened to me when my wife playfully hit me when I wasn't paying attention. It hit me just under the heart and I dropped like a sack of sh... well you get the point. Not all the points are "fake", which is why I still have an active interest (if not pursuit of) in dim mak techniques

By the way, any of you guys members at www.martialartsplanet.com. I have just started. It is nearly as much fun as here!

Bahala Na!

GroundStrength

15th January 2004, 09:41 AM

Hannibal,

I don't perform any official internal forms, but I use a few movements to relax myself every so often. Plus I find them a good way to rehearse finer points of combat moves.
Resectfully, the forms have nothing to do with something being internal. What makes a style internal is the way that they move. It isn't easy and it takes a while(several years) to get it.

I think that there is an issue here with regards to pressure points. They are really an ancilliary system as far as I am concerned. Anyone who doubts there efficiency hasn't had Marc McFann throw them with a philtrum hold (about the only pressure point that has ever worked on me and boy did it ever!)
I agree that they should only supplement hard, long training in a solid style. Also there is a common misconception about using the points. They are not used on a singular basis. They are used in proper order with proper angle direction and activation.

I hear a lot about fa-jing, but it is just simple mechanics. It is not really different from the "double hip" in shukokai (Peter Consterdine being a very powerful exponent).
Actually it is. Peter hits very, very hard. But his double-hip is not quite like fa-jin. The friend in Cyprus I mentioned is a mate of Peter's. You really need to feel it to beleive it.

In relation to the $1m, we need to set clear parameters early on.
I agree.

Like I said before, anything hit hard enough will drop/hurt the opponent.
I again agree.

I would like to see the light touch/no touch KO work on a non-complliant opponent.
It does and I have done it, but I fail to see where a non-compliant opponent comes into play for the million dollar challenge.

A word on minor joint locks - they are bloody hard to get on! I have had more than my fair share of street situations and usually a minor lock has to be set up by a strike or more frequently a larger lock (e.g. lock the arm in a bar then slide to the wrist to the finger/thumb).
Agree

I find the arm bar/wrist combo to be most effective when restraining or arresting.
Yes, but if you use the point TW-11 on the back of the elbow with a rubbing/vibrating motion they will drop to the floor.

An anecdote on single shot KO's happened to me when my wife playfully hit me when I wasn't paying attention. It hit me just under the heart and I dropped like a sack of sh... well you get the point. Not all the points are "fake", which is why I still have an active interest (if not pursuit of) in dim mak techniques
Conception Vessel-17, great point. Palm this one in and down at a 45degree angle with a clockwise twist and see what happens.

Like I said before I am game for filling out the application and being tested on the light-force KO's. Maybe we can come up with a preliminary protocall.

Hannibal

15th January 2004, 09:59 AM

Hey there GS!

I have to dash out so this is only a quick reply.

By Non-compliance I do notmean someone trying to take your head off (although that would be interesting to watch from a technical perspective). I mean that they do not want or expect to be KO'd (TBK would probably oblige:D ). That would take away the "willing student" type of problem we mentioned earlier.

thaiboxerken

15th January 2004, 10:04 AM

Well Hi TBK, wondered when one of my posts would catch your angst and anger issues:)

I have no such issues.

Mostly because you don't undestand how to perform small joint manipulation.

A rather silly assumption, I do understand and have the training in such techniques.

The best in the world is Wally Jay (Small Circle Jujutsu, who is on the board that my rank comes from), couple that with the points on the fingers and wrists and you get something happening to the opponent called cross-extensor reflex action(Kind of like pinching a crawdad's back)

The Best? Well.. maybe. I understand wristlocks and fingerlocks and how to do such things. Yes, they are hard to pull off by themselves. I can recall Wally Jay even saying that they need to be set up with some strikes or other distractions to work.

Wrist and ankle manipulation is legal in UFC.

This "cross-extensor" reflex action. I don't buy it.

True, but not how a kyusho stylist would use it. It would be used in the clinch or in close in grappling to drive down into the ribs, clavicle, solar plexus or sternum with a nice fa-jin shake.

They (used to) do the same things in UFC until they made it illegal. It didn't serve to win a fight anymore than any other strike. Yes, they hurt and can win a fight. Illegal in MMA events for reasons unknown to me. Probably because those that make "laws" in the sanctioning bodies are clueless.

Yes, but there are along the clavicles that cause the knees to release and a grab a shake will cause even a "professional" to let go.

Maybe, maybe not. I doubt it. It hurts and that's about it.. adrenaline pumped fighters aren't as susceptible to such tactics.

What we focus on is attacking the points to destroy the limbs.

What happened to "KO's" from such usage? That's what it being questioned here. Causing a little pain distraction to get a joint break or lock is quite different from the Dim Mak methods we were talking about earlier. Did you e-mail the JREF about your touch-KO's yet?

I personally haven't fought in them because I have a wife and four kids to take care of and I don't care about "matches".

A million dollars would probably do your family alot of good, and there would be no "match". Can you KO a person by simply touching them?

In the times that I have needed to defend myself it has worked as promised (however the touch was not light by any means). My point is if a fight is a fight then anything is legal. Hell I 'll reach down your pants and pull it off if I have to.

This is true. But we're not really talking about that so much as the claim that one can use a finger strike to KO a person.

Don't know. But no, we don't use the fingers to set up KO's, we use the arms mostly (because that is usually what is coming at you)

[b]Never a BJJ school but several classical jujutsu schools and they were impressed. There are a few here in Houston but if you would like to reccommend one I'd be glad to go.

There is a JKD school there that might be interested. e-mail rrparra@aol.com He own's the school there.

So sad for you but hey keep banging you shins against the wall.

Hmm.. I don't do that in my training. No bottles to the shin, no rolling pins or other nonsense that so man myths that kids buy into about Muay Thai. Oh well.

This atemi discussion will simply keep being argued because the ones that say it works refuse to prove it.

GroundStrength

15th January 2004, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Hannibal
Hey there GS!

I have to dash out so this is only a quick reply.

By Non-compliance I do notmean someone trying to take your head off (although that would be interesting to watch from a technical perspective). I mean that they do not want or expect to be KO'd (TBK would probably oblige:D ). That would take away the "willing student" type of problem we mentioned earlier.

Well alrighty then. I don't mind doing it for real (just not where the million is on the line), but I agree that someone who does not want to or expect to be knocked out would be best. Actually I might let my wife do the actual test she is very good and there is some sort of natural yin/yang thing going between male/female that might give us the edge :p

thaiboxerken

15th January 2004, 10:13 AM

It does and I have done it, but I fail to see where a non-compliant opponent comes into play for the million dollar challenge.

I doubt it.

Yes, I agree with the non-compliant person. Tell them that you are going to use a light-tap KO technique. Use the wrong points on some of them and the "right" points on others. We need to introduce some double blinding so we can choose randomly which participants will be getting the "real" treatment and who will be getting fake "ko" points. Only the one doing the atemi will know.

OR!! Better yet, have 2 "atemi" guys. One is the applicant, the other is not. Only the judge will know who is the real "atemi" expert.

Well, I'm sure Randi can come up with a test better than I mentioned. I'd be satisfied with this though.

GroundStrength

15th January 2004, 10:28 AM

Originally posted thaiboxerken
I have no such issues.

Well just in case :rub:

can recall Wally Jay even saying that they need to be set up with some strikes or other distractions to work.
I agree.

This "cross-extensor" reflex action. I don't buy it.
So what? I put hundreds of people in a position for a finger-lock and tell them to knock the ***** out of me on the count of three.
Cross-extensor relflex action is what keeps me looking pretty.

On the stomach points on the clavicles
Maybe, maybe not. I doubt it. It hurts and that's about it.. adrenaline pumped fighters aren't as susceptible to such tactics.
No, it doesn't just hurt. It will knock your feet out from underneath you just with a small press.

What happened to "KO's" from such usage? That's what it being questioned here. Causing a little pain distraction to get a joint break or lock is quite different from the Dim Mak methods we were talking about earlier.
Oh they're there, just over-hyped and over-sold IMO. That is all people want to see at the seminars. They work and I can and have done them many times. Besides there seems to be two subjects here
1) Figthing in a UFC event, in which case I would use a strategy of limb destruction first.
2) Proving light force KO's for the challenge

Did you e-mail the JREF about your touch-KO's yet?

yep.

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:48:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scott Watkins" <xingyiquan2003@yahoo.com> Add to Address Book
Subject: Kyusho Jutsu and Light Force KO's
To: jref@randi.org, randi@randi.org

Sirs,

I am a practicioner of Internal Chinese Martial arts (xingyiquan) and Kyusho Jutsu (Pressure point fighting). A question has been raised about applying for the challenge. I can and have done these point KO's at least 100 times on almost as many people. The thing is that I don't feel that it is supernatural. I feel that there is a perfectly good physiological reason for it happening. What is the best course of action? or should I just fill out the application?

Thank you for your time
Scott Watkins (GroundStrength on the forum)

A million dollars would probably do your family alot of good, and there would be no "match".
Sure would(I want one of those new Chevy ssr's), but again you are confusing the issue. I agree be tested for the million. Not sure if I want to risk injury in a cage with a bunch of knuckle-dragging droolers.

Can you KO a person by simply touching them?
Again you are confusing the issue, I said light force, not touch, not no-touch But yes I can thanks for asking.

GroundStrength

15th January 2004, 10:36 AM

I doubt it.
Again, so what?

Yes, I agree with the non-compliant person. Tell them that you are going to use a light-tap KO technique. Use the wrong points on some of them and the "right" points on others. We need to introduce some double blinding so we can choose randomly which participants will be getting the "real" treatment and who will be getting fake "ko" points. Only the one doing the atemi will know.

OR!! Better yet, have 2 "atemi" guys. One is the applicant, the other is not. Only the judge will know who is the real "atemi" expert.

Well, I'm sure Randi can come up with a test better than I mentioned. I'd be satisfied with this though.

Sounds like a good start.

Wudang

15th January 2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Hannibal
I don't buy into the internal/external either as a general rule, but people love labels for some reason...

Wudang, didn't Dan win by KO in a SE Asian tournament in the early 80's? If so what technique did he use? The reason I ask is because it would be interesting to see full contact applied Taijiquan as opposed to theory.

Yeah, against Roy Pink of 5 Ancestors in the final, took out a thai boxer on the way. The KO was basically Roy overcommitted on his attack and Dan sideslipped and delivered a lovely right to Roys chin. I have a very grainy video copy of an old 8mm film of it.

GroundStrength

15th January 2004, 12:43 PM

Some Internal Guys Kicking A$$ (http://www.hsing-i.com/school_awards/index.html)

This is a national and international event that has been going on for a few decades. Many in our lineage have gone and fought here. Used to be very brutal but now afew rules are in place. Mike Patterson (the owner of the site) regularly coaches teams to go. Shrfu Patterson teaches (real) internal martial arts.

There is a listing of the rules and competetion results for the last several years.

Edited to add: Shrfu Patterson has a MPEG clip of him getting hit in the stomach with a sledge-hammer (by Vince Black) on the site under the MPEG section. Not paranormal but cool as $hit

thaiboxerken

15th January 2004, 01:37 PM

Call it what you want, asswhippin is asswhippin. I see nothing to differentiate internal vs external.

GroundStrength

15th January 2004, 02:02 PM

TBK,

Try going to see

Ai Ping Cheng
535 Boston Post Road
Orange, CT 06477
(203) 891-0729
Tai Chi Chuan
Pa Kua Chang
Hsing I Chuan

She should be able to show you the difference in movement and power. I do not know her but others I know do.

and from Mike Patterson's site (http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i/IntvsExt.html)

The original meanings of Internal vs. External kung fu have been largely misconstrued over the last generation due to many "oral" variations of the many different kung fu families trying to paint a picture showcasing their own individual style. So, now adays a person hears many incorrect statements regarding these differences such as External Styles are "Hard" and Internal Styles are "Soft", but in reality the original meaning of this "difference" was entirely philosophic and geographic. The original me aning of the external styles was simply that those styles were originally started by Da Mo and the ShaoLin temples (buddhist philosophy) who purportedly came from India, and was hence from outside China (External Style). And the original meaning of "Internal" was to denote those styles that were founded on the Taoist philosophy of Lao Tzu and were created inside of China (Internal Styles).

But the real difference is in power generation. Both the amount of force and how it created and expressed.

Wudang

15th January 2004, 02:39 PM

Uh well, that's one history of many I've heard. Others argue that the term (neijia) was first used for a specific art of neijia chuan originating from Wudang mountain. Some say that the first was a branch of tong bei chuan (through the back boxing) which led to chen taiji etc etc.
Anyway nowadays it's pretty much used for the big 3 taiji, bagua and xing-yi, and some others luhobafa, I-chuan, I think one style of baji. There's a characteristic way of using the body and a guy called Mike Sigman has done some useful stuff on it from a mechanical engineering point of view. Nothing mystical, just a different way of lining the body up so that the resultant vector from using lots of muscles gives a slightly different path. It's not easy, then again I don't think doing any martial art properly is easy. At the end of the day, it's what the guy doing it can actually do with it that counts. Most so-called internal artists are dreamers and fantasists I'm afraid. Most tai chee people I've seen would be better off going for a good walk.

thaiboxerken

15th January 2004, 02:40 PM

I can see the internal to China and external to China definition.

As far as "power" and how to generate/create power.. that's a bunch of BS.

GroundStrength

15th January 2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
As far as "power" and how to generate/create power.. that's a bunch of BS.

:hit: [With external power only]

thaiboxerken

15th January 2004, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by GroundStrength

:hit: [With external power only]

Proper body mechanics are taught in many martial arts, not just "internal" ones.

Wudang

15th January 2004, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

Proper body mechanics are taught in many martial arts, not just "internal" ones.

They should be taught in every martial art, the internal ones just do it a bit different, that's all.

thaiboxerken

15th January 2004, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Wudang

They should be taught in every martial art, the internal ones just do it a bit different, that's all.

I doubt it.

Darwin'sGoat

15th January 2004, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Hmm.. I don't do that in my training. No bottles to the shin, no rolling pins or other nonsense that so man myths that kids buy into about Muay Thai. Oh well.

When I was taking Thai I was taught to use rolling pins to help build up my shins in addition to the bag work? Was this really bogus?

Darwin'sGoat

15th January 2004, 09:14 PM

It would be so much cooler if faith healers wore gis too.

"I kick ass...FOR THE LORD!"

Hannibal

16th January 2004, 04:12 AM

Hey... "Brain Dead" fan! Cool!

What you were taught wasn't so much bogus as dumb - there is difference.

GS, clavicle press/strike does not work on me, not now or ever. I just don't move! In fact a vast majority don't work on me - mandibular angle, mastoid process and even the indentation behind the sternum & in front of the trachea. I even had someone do a full on strangle with thumbs once. It wasn't pleasant and I talked funny for a day, but I still "took them out" whilst they were doing the technique.

The above is not o show what a "tough guy" I am, but to illustrate that PP's in reality are very, very different from theory. The same is true of wristlocks. I once put a gut in an arrest hold that, theoretically, should have made him complian with pain. However, not a twitch! Luckily I had some back up techniques and read the situation quickly. I dread to think what would have happened if I didn't.

With equal respect back, there is a difference between Tai Chi the boxing form and the chi-gung contained in it. They did not evolve at the same time. I do not claim I do tai chi, I do ju-jitsu locks moves etc AT A SLOW PACE to relax my muscles and to help concentrate on finer points in technique. I do additional breathing exercises which are far more effective than Tai chi but with no combat applications per se.

Fa-Jing IS mechanics - period. I watched Erle demonstrate it on video again and it is straightforward to replicate.

Have you seen "Blitzkreig attacks" by Peyton Quinn? It is a more grounded presentation of vital point striking and a good video in its own right.

An why not go for the $1m if you can? It would ease a lot of your financial burdens for now and the future if you won it.

Wudang

16th January 2004, 05:03 AM

I don't like the term chi-gong, I use nei-gong, as what you're training is muscle and muscle usage. Fa-jing is an explosive usage of that muscle, period. I haven't seen Erle's video but his books make me suspicious. Videos where you can see fa-jing clearly are Mike Sigman's internal strength videos (the car-shaking drill for instance), Ren Guang-Yi's Chen tai chi videos, some of Chen Xiao Wang's, etc.

thaiboxerken

16th January 2004, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by Darwin'sGoat

When I was taking Thai I was taught to use rolling pins to help build up my shins in addition to the bag work? Was this really bogus?

Ask yourself this. What are you "building up"?

After years of bagwork, I still feel a little pain in my shins if I go shin to shin with a person. However, in a confrontation, with adrenaline going.. you're not going to feel it.

Even Bunkerd Fairtex has no idea why people do weird stuff to their shins.

So yea, I think it's bogus.

Hannibal, you bring up excellent points. I fail to see the difference between "internal" and "external" body mechanics. Yes, some martial arts (particularly "karate" and TKD) teach poor mechanics... but there are plenty that teach good ones. Is "external" just a different way for Chinese practitioners to say "my martial arts are superior"?

Wudang

16th January 2004, 05:24 AM

Kevin_Lowe

16th January 2004, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Hannibal, you bring up excellent points. I fail to see the difference between "internal" and "external" body mechanics. Yes, some martial arts (particularly "karate" and TKD) teach poor mechanics... but there are plenty that teach good ones. Is "external" just a different way for Chinese practitioners to say "my martial arts are superior"?

I don't think that's the case, and it's something I've kept a skeptical eye on.

I tried to find a description of what internal artists are doing in non-woo terms from a real neijia person, but I couldn't find one. As far as I can tell, most people don't know what they are doing and waffle on about it aimlessly. The few who know what they are doing are still hiding it and trying to charge money for videos and rubbish like that rather than clearly explaining the body mechanics involved. You'll have noticed that Groundstrength is, um, smugly uncommunicative about what his internal stuff actually involves. He's typical in my somewhat limited experience.

But the mechanisms involved have been demonstrated to skeptical people I trust, so I believe that there is more to it than complete rubbish and I'll take a shot at explaining what I believe it to be.

"External" power is about using the muscles directly to power a movement. "Internal" power is about storing power by twisting the body and working muscles against each other, then releasing it all at once.

It's a bit, I think, like the way we snap our fingers. You can't make much noise by tapping your unaided second finger against the pad of your thumb. But you can get a distinct crack by "storing" power by pressing the tips of your thumb and second finger together, and then turning the wrist upwards to "release" the finger.

They also use their whole body to power their movements, but everybody does that.

The result seems to be that they can produce some surprising bursts of power that external stylists cannot, because they are using almost all of the power-generating muscles that the external folks use plus they have some money in the bank, as it were.

This is a good parlour trick. When someone uses it in MMA competition successfully I'll take notice. There's no evidence yet that the internal way of doing things gets the job done better than the external way, or even that it can compete with the external way.

But I have to say it's pretty cool. :) In the same way that aikido is pretty cool. Not too useful, but pretty damn cool indeed.

As I said earlier, this is just my current belief about what the non-woo internal artists are doing. I can't do it myself, nor have I ever touched hands with someone who can, and I reserve the right to be completely wrong.

thaiboxerken

16th January 2004, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by Wudang

I previously mentioned the "car shake" drill - try this. Stand beside your car in a short forward stance, hands on the edge fo the roof. Now slam your dan tien towards your rear heel and channel the recoil into your hands to shake the car. This is one example of the way that "short jing" can be generated. Try tucking your pelvis a little first so that your spine points to your rear heel, simplifies the force vector. Again, just mechanics.

I didn't know I had a dan tien. What do you really mean?

It seems to me that shaking a car really doesn't prove much. Using the cars momentum to shake a car can be done with many stances. People with no martial arts training do this trick. I did it to bother my GF's when I was a teenager.

You'll have noticed that Groundstrength is, um, smugly uncommunicative about what his internal stuff actually involves. He's typical in my somewhat limited experience.

Yep, it's hard to get answers from evasive people.

"External" power is about using the muscles directly to power a movement. "Internal" power is about storing power by twisting the body and working muscles against each other, then releasing it all at once.

From this and your example below.. it sounds like plyometric (sp?) usage of the body. Such twisting and "working" is done in most martial arts. This is used in Muay Thai as well as the other martial arts I train in.

This is a good parlour trick. When someone uses it in MMA competition successfully I'll take notice.

You probably use these techniques and not even know it. A good jab-cross uses this principle. The jab comes.. and with good mechanics, the cross will have the twisting and plyometrics involved with adding a little extra momentum to the punch. So yea, it's used successfully the way I understand this "internal" power to be.

Hannibal

16th January 2004, 06:48 AM

Take an "internal" fa-jing punch and break down. Relax, engage all muscles and sinew in unison, shake/snap the body etc...

Take an "external" gung-fu system (e.g. Wing-Chun 1" puch) and break it down. Relax, engage all muscles and sinew in unison, shake/snap the body

Take a Western boxer's jab and break it down. Relax, engage muscles....etc

They are ALL thrown using the same PRINCIPLES. Only the actual execution is different (probably due to range of the shot). This is why the internal/external are the same.

My understanding on the differences is in practice not application. "Hard" systems tend to favour body conditioning in addition to the martial movements (e.g. Shaolin "log on head" drill and "hot gravel" finger thrust) whereas the "internal" schools focus on technique and form in their drilling.

To be fair to GS, I suspect he is more of a "hands on" demonstrator and maybe finds it hard to elucidate on the technique and its theory. I can play a DVD but have no idea how it works!

This is a really enjoyable debate by the way!

GroundStrength

16th January 2004, 08:08 AM

GS, clavicle press/strike does not work on me, not now or ever. I just don't move! In fact a vast majority don't work on me - mandibular angle, mastoid process and even the indentation behind the sternum & in front of the trachea.
I'll take your word for it. After eight years of xingyiquan I find that I am less affected by them as well. I suspect Wudang has noticed the same thing thru his taijiquan training. I don't train kyusho jutsu anymore because I don't need it with the power generated with xingyiquan.
I still teach seminars on the suject and find that it does work on about 80% of the people that I come across. I'd say that that is a good percentage. I have always said that is just another tool to be used with good solid training. That being said, I still would like to take a shot a the million.

The above is not o show what a "tough guy" I am, but to illustrate that PP's in reality are very, very different from theory. The same is true of wristlocks. I once put a gut in an arrest hold that, theoretically, should have made him complian with pain. However, not a twitch! Luckily I had some back up techniques and read the situation quickly. I dread to think what would have happened if I didn't.
Always the best plan!

Fa-Jing IS mechanics - period.
I agree but would add relaxation and proper breathing.

I watched Erle demonstrate it on video again and it is straightforward to replicate.
God love Erle but he doesn't do it correctly. He does Peter's double-hip.
(Note: I am not knocking on Erle, he is a very dedicated martial artist and generous person with the information that he has.)

Have you seen "Blitzkreig attacks" by Peyton Quinn? It is a more grounded presentation of vital point striking and a good video in its own right.
No, but now I have to.;)

An why not go for the $1m if you can? It would ease a lot of your financial burdens for now and the future if you won it.
I very much plan to. I downloaded the application (which looked less like an application and more like a list of rules..??..)

Take an "internal" fa-jing punch and break down. Relax, engage all muscles and sinew in unison, shake/snap the body etc...

Take an "external" gung-fu system (e.g. Wing-Chun 1" puch) and break it down. Relax, engage all muscles and sinew in unison, shake/snap the body

Take a Western boxer's jab and break it down. Relax, engage muscles....etc

They are ALL thrown using the same PRINCIPLES. Only the actual execution is different (probably due to range of the shot). This is why the internal/external are the same.
I wish I could fully agree, but I can't. Yes, it looks very similar but there is a difference in alignment and a way of connecting the body that not found in "external" styles.
However you hit on a very key piece of the puzzle that most overlook and I am very impressed.

My understanding on the differences is in practice not application. "Hard" systems tend to favour body conditioning in addition to the martial movements (e.g. Shaolin "log on head" drill and "hot gravel" finger thrust) whereas the "internal" schools focus on technique and form in their drilling.
Another very good observation, however please do not think that "internal" means "soft". There are conditioning exersizes that we do in xingyiquan that are incredibly difficult and very tiring. It is what they condition that is important. (Again I'm not being evasive, I'll sum up at the bottom)
BTW I did the "iron palm" training and can "slap" not "palm" a coconut open.

To be fair to GS, I suspect he is more of a "hands on" demonstrator and maybe finds it hard to elucidate on the technique and its theory.
Thank you and you are correct for the most part. I understand what is going on but don't like to talk about it (it took me six years to "get it").

This is a really enjoyable debate by the way!

Yes it is. I am even ejoying TBK' comments. No doubt he trains hard and has a lot of valueable info to share.

GroundStrength

16th January 2004, 08:29 AM

I tried to find a description of what internal artists are doing in non-woo terms from a real neijia person, but I couldn't find one. As far as I can tell, most people don't know what they are doing and waffle on about it aimlessly.
I experienced the same for a while but Mike Sigman does a pretty good job of it. Even my teachers still use the fuzzy-language when talking about it. I have had a time working out what I feel is the source of the power.

The few who know what they are doing are still hiding it and trying to charge money for videos and rubbish like that rather than clearly explaining the body mechanics involved. You'll have noticed that Groundstrength is, um, smugly uncommunicative about what his internal stuff actually involves. He's typical in my somewhat limited experience.
There are many who don't have videos and don't charge huge fees. Some of these are the best you will find. Sorry about being that way it probably comes from the teachers.

"External" power is about using the muscles directly to power a movement. "Internal" power is about storing power by twisting the body and working muscles against each other, then releasing it all at once.
Another good description, but you left out proper alignment and there is a way of moving with the body connected a certain way that adds a lot.

They also use their whole body to power their movements, but everybody does that.
Yes, but not in the same way.

The result seems to be that they can produce some surprising bursts of power that external stylists cannot, because they are using almost all of the power-generating muscles that the external folks use plus they have some money in the bank, as it were.
It is not just the muscles!

This is a good parlour trick. When someone uses it in MMA competition successfully I'll take notice. There's no evidence yet that the internal way of doing things gets the job done better than the external way, or even that it can compete with the external way.

Why a MMA competition? This is just the new 'ninja' craze for the new millenium. It is not a bad idea, and it is a good way to test your "balls" as it were. But I don't train for fighting in MMA competitions. I train for health and to be able to open a "can-o-whoop-ass" when I need to.

As I said earlier, this is just my current belief about what the non-woo internal artists are doing. I can't do it myself, nor have I ever touched hands with someone who can, and I reserve the right to be completely wrong.
If you can locate the God Dragon Tang Shou Tao Society where you are they "have it".

Wudang

16th January 2004, 09:37 AM

Where to start? Okay the car's just useful to work on as it has shocks, do it against a wall for all I care. I didn't realise dan tien was so obscure a term,so... aim the centre of your navel at your rear heel and slam down symmetrically. Your instict will be to slam down leading with the hip on the same side as the rear foot, try not to. Your foot ain't going to drive through the earth so the force ends up "recoiling" and you want to channel that via the back muscles up and out through your hands trying not to add anything from the shoulders. This ends up using the leg, some abdominal, some back muscles in a particular way. Easier to do demo than explain. Mike SIgman used to have some nice vector diagrams showing the resultant force paths but I can't find them online just now.
Hannibal - I think Wang Haijun is still in Manchester - he's supposed to be the business.
Yes, there's internal conditioning as well - my style gets you to do 1000 unloaded squats with various other stuff thrown in. One of the harder postural exercises is also used in ba gua - the first time I tried it the guy I was learning with thought I was going to pass out as I turned white - my thighs needed all the blood they could get.
Kevin has a point as well about how useful this stuff is. It is difficult to learn and for an MMA bout it won't be the best bang for the buck. All the stories about superhuman internal martial artists all involve guys who trained like maniacs -the best example being the Yang Lu Chan that tai chi guys like to boast about. They tend to be quiet about the way he trained his kids - so hard that one ran away and one tried to kill himself. They could fight as well though. As the generations went by and the cash rolled in and the need to train that way diminished, guess what?
My name's Rob Morton by the way. Wudang is Dan Docherty's style and I thought why not? After several years on rec.martial-arts years back I don't like discussing MA using a pseudonym.
cheers for now.

GroundStrength

16th January 2004, 09:52 AM

Well, good to know you Rob!

Here is the link to Mike Sigman's stuff

Internal Strength Magazine (http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/)

As far as conditioning goes, we do sets called "fu hu gong" or lying tiger skills. Crazy things, dragging ourselves along the floor in many odd positions and other things to strengthing the tendons/ligaments and other connective tissue. This is enough to want to make you cry. The strength of the tendons/ligaments and connective tissue (especially in the torso area) is what allows for the incredible power releases. Training them is key.

Filling out the application BTW and will post it in the Challenge area after the weekend.

All the best to everyone in this thread..

Scott

Wudang

16th January 2004, 09:57 AM

Cool saves me having to scan them in. The articles are pretty useful as Mike is an engineer with a good MA background.
Guys, you wanna skim the first couple of articles in the above link from the "peng articles" link as a starting point?

LLL

16th January 2004, 10:57 AM

Yeah, surprisingly good points have arisen considering the 1st post I made... 'no touch' & 'sound' KOs are 100% ASS.

Pressure points? I'm not sure, don't know about them, or haven't had them used on me. I do domehow doubt them, but at least they make more sense than the aforementioned.

BTW free advertisement, COME to www.bullshido.com (unless you already are there), the best site ... esp internal stylists are needed there, but prepare to answer questions...

thaiboxerken

16th January 2004, 01:15 PM

GroundStrength

16th January 2004, 01:28 PM

Okay back on the topic of the OP.

I think I have figured out the mechanism that made the no-touch stuff work in the beginning.
I was around when George first started doing this and brought him to Houston to see it first hand.
I'll try and find a clip of the first position used for this and post it.

Here is is:Example (http://www.geocities.com/uk_dbbai2/KOs.mpg)

But here is one hand is placed over the rib-area and the other is placed over the opposite side eye-area.
The hand over the eye is rocked back and forth and moved in an out a bit. Now, I've just done this to a few friends today and
they have all lost their balance and stumbled backwards. The eye hand needs to be at the right distance to cause a depth perception problem.
I think that it also screws with the equlibrium. Causing the person to get dizzy and fall. I'm going to try some more.
If this is true I can see how it was thought to be chi.

What do you think?

PS
TBK that is why no one talks about it or tries to describe it due to the 'We already do that factor'.
But actually Kali, escrima and silat should use the correct mechanics it is just the tendon/ligament/fascia conditiong that
makes the difference.

thaiboxerken

16th January 2004, 05:46 PM

TBK that is why no one talks about it or tries to describe it due to the 'We already do that factor'.

And shouldn't that tell you something about "internal" vs "external" ? If "external" martial artists do what the "internal" martial artists do.. why the need for the label? Sounds to me like it's a mysticism that many Chinese martial artists like to buy into. Even the site "Internal Strength Magazine" has "Qi" in the title, suggesting that it has alot to do with woo-woo stuff.

To me.. it's like calling 2 identical guns different. My Colt .45 uses internal energy to propel a bullet using the gunpowder, but Joe's gun uses external energy from the hammer.

Kevin_Lowe

16th January 2004, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
To me.. it's like calling 2 identical guns different. My Colt .45 uses internal energy to propel a bullet using the gunpowder, but Joe's gun uses external energy from the hammer.

I think you're being a little harsh.

Aikido arm locks put the subject's arm in exactly the same mechanical position as arm locks from every other martial art on earth. They do set up and apply the technique in an interesting and distinctive way, though, and that's enough of a difference to merit a distinction. In my opinion, anyway.

In the same way if one style develops a useful punch emphasising plyometric power, floppiness, and the distinctive stances the internal arts use as opposed to a more straightforward body whip, that's enough of a difference to deserve a distinction.

The problem is people who make idiotic claims like "aikido uses no muscle power" or "with tai chi you can annihilate an opponent's skeleton without using any muscles at all", which are (to borrow LLL's wonderful phrase) 100% ass. Internal seems to me to be different enough from external to make the words meaningful, just not so different that there is not a large overlap.

After all, we call BJJ "BJJ" instead of "Judo", even though there is a near 100% overlap in techniques other than leg locks. There is huge overlap, but they are different enough to merit different names.

Wudang

17th January 2004, 04:46 AM

Kevin, good post. Yes it's a useful distinction. My view of martial arts is that what makes one art different from another is not the techniques but the way they're done. I know how I do a 1-inch punch in wing chun and I know how I do a 1-inch punch internal style and it's different muscle groups, different way of propagating the force through the body etc. Sure styles blur into each other. I started with Shorinji Kempo in the 70s which has a bogus history but is still a good style if well taught. I usually just say I did jujitsu because that's what the bulk of SK is, advertising aside.
There's a guy called Chas on rec.m-a who does some escrima etc and who met Sigman and who went from saying that he already did it all to saying that what Mike showed was distinctly different and replicable. He picked up a good bit in a couple of hours. It's not magic. I guess if someone did show Ken the real thing he'd just shrug and say so what?
I may not be at my clearest as I've been on call all week and got ratted just sniffing the cork last night.

Hannibal

18th January 2004, 04:27 AM

Cheers for the tip on Wang Haijun - if I can I'll try and locate him. It would be interesting to get a feel for the "real deal" to see if I have been missing out on anything for the last 15years;)

To be honest I tend to avoid distinctions because of two reasons.

1)I am too busy actually training to bother ponitificating too much

and

2) As long as my opponent is spark out on the floor it doesn't matter if I used Tai Chi, Thai boxing or Tae bo!

Some people drive Sports cars, some drive SUV's but all get from A to B (apart from a crap Nissan Sunny I had once but that is another story...)

GS have you had any challenge reply back yet?

Hannibal

18th January 2004, 04:30 AM

I guess if someone did show Ken the real thing he'd just shrug and say so what?

I think Ken might actually train with someone who could offer anything of benefit - he is a fellow JKD'er you know!

The only thing that would make him go "so what" would be if the same results cab already be gained using "non fajing/chi" movements. Same here in fact.

How did Dan throw his right hand by the way? It doesn't sound particularly Taijiquan to me - just a damn good cross;)

Wudang

18th January 2004, 05:21 AM

Hannibal, that's why I think Ken would just shrug - it's interesting, it's powerful, but at the end of the day it's not better. I think it's more efficient especiallyas you get older but I still need to keep the lard off so I still need to do CV work like spear form, bag work. It let me grapple above my weight but the same would be true for lots of other training and maybe instead I should just have bought some kettleballs or whatever and put on weight. Though it did bulk up my thighs in particular. Actually the exercises that did that could be used to develop external strength as well.

Hannibal

18th January 2004, 05:35 AM

They sound like good exercises to me!

it's interesting, it's powerful, but at the end of the day it's not better.

That is perhaps the single most insightful comment I have heard all day - bravo! Things are not necessarily better - just different.

It matches another quote I read online today "Robin Hood is always more important than the bow and arrow"

T'ai Chi

18th January 2004, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Wudang
There's a guy called Chas on rec.m-a who does some escrima etc and who met Sigman and who went from saying that he already did it all to saying that what Mike showed was distinctly different and replicable. He picked up a good bit in a couple of hours. It's not magic. I guess if someone did show Ken the real thing he'd just shrug and say so what?

I met a guy from the Sigman camp while in college this last time. He basically had me get into some postures and hold them while he pushed here and pulled there to see if I was relaxed and not tensing against him when he did that.

He then told me about how to open doors using my whole body instead of just strength from the hand, etc.

I'm personally not convinced that calling things vectors and ground strength, etc., is any different than saying to get in a good stance.

Wudang

18th January 2004, 11:05 AM

A good stance is the start. But then you have to move to do anything. I've met a lot of people who think they do good tai chi because they can stand in (basically) an inclined shotokan front stance and let someone shove their shoulder. Then again the human body has, IMHO, too many joints and is too flexible and ends up being like the three-body problem. But Mike's approach is very much worth thinking about.

Wudang

18th January 2004, 01:07 PM

Allow me to expand a little - a lot of guff is talked about Mikes "teacher test" and your Sigman campy guy might be guilty. Mike gave the test as a simple thing that someone with a trivial grasp of neikung should be able to perform. Some people mistake that "can you write your name" for the full exam.

crimresearch

20th January 2004, 09:38 AM

Hi all.

I think that the 'write your name' analogy is the neatest summation of how badly Mike's 'teacher test' was misunderstood and misused that I have ever come across.

As far as the original Kyusho post goes, I have been in the business of evaluating martial arts systems for their use in police work for some time now.
When Dillman's DKI people were contacted and it was explained to them that no police instructor would want to send cops out on the street with bullets that only worked 75 -80% of the time, and that the same concerns existed for Pressure Points, one of DKI's top people agreed to demonstrate *without holding back* on a well known police officer/trainer, in front of a (non-police and non-DKI) witness.
After muliple strikes to a cluster of points, the subject reported feeling like he had been whacked on the head with a fist...no knockout, no practical incapacitation. For all intents and purposes, Kyusho/Tuite failed the test under fairly ideal conditions.

On a more anecdotal note, I offered myself up for a demonstration from another of DKI's top people (who later left to head his own system), and found that his PP 'magic' was in fact a simple parlor trick..he 'broke' my wrist by rocking back and up on his heels, raising my hand and pulling me off of my center of gravity, while claiming to have rendered my muscles 'paralyzed' by PP manipulation.

Note that these were PPs selected on the basis of TCM theories. I believe that pressure points selected on the basis of well understood physiological principles, such as activation of the Raphe nucleus, baroceptors, or nerve plexus refraction are a better bet for effectiveness, with a downside (from a police liability perspective) of endangering some subjects.

So, much like neijia, it may be entirely a matter of which PP method is being applied, and entirely possible that the vast majority of those representing a methodology may be working from flawed premises, while those who are working from more rigorous principles are in the distinct minority.

take care

Paul Nunis

Hannibal

20th January 2004, 01:21 PM

Oi! Not fair! How dare you bring an end the best thread I've been on for ages with a decent post that nullifys PP fighting!!!:D

GroundStrength

20th January 2004, 01:44 PM

So, much like neijia, it may be entirely a matter of which PP method is being applied, and entirely possible that the vast majority of those representing a methodology may be working from flawed premises
I am being as politically correct as possible here, it is also entirely possible that the vast majority have learned from tapes and seminars and not undertaken a serious study of it and have no skill (gong fu) at it.

, while those who are working from more rigorous principles are in the distinct minority.
Very true.

There are so many principles that are not taught on the tapes or in seminars. Most don't even realize that kyusho and tuite must be used together in the same technique.

crimresearch could you PM me with the name of the guy who did the demo. I am curious. There are only a couple that have split off so far.

Scott

GroundStrength

20th January 2004, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by Hannibal
Oi! Not fair! How dare you bring an end the best thread I've been on for ages with a decent post that nullifys PP fighting!!!:D

Now Hannibal, nothing is settled or ended until I have whacked the appropriate people.

thaiboxerken

20th January 2004, 05:48 PM

I'm still wondering if you have gotten a reply from Mr Randi about your superpowers yet.

Hannibal

20th January 2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by GroundStrength

Now Hannibal, nothing is settled or ended until I have whacked the appropriate people.

LOL!

Have you heard back from Randi yet?

Kevin_Lowe

21st January 2004, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by GroundStrength
I am being as politically correct as possible here, it is also entirely possible that the vast majority have learned from tapes and seminars and not undertaken a serious study of it and have no skill (gong fu) at it.

You have to admit though, from the outside perspective this looks an awful lot like the "No True Scotsman" routine that woo-woos run into the ground.

If this stuff worked you'd think that there would be someone in the world good enough to give a completely unambiguous demonstration.

If GS wins the million, of course, that person would be GS. :)

Jaymz

21st January 2004, 04:16 AM

I'm sorry, I have now read the entire thread and one thing seems to have escaped me. What exactly is it that GroundStrength says he can do?

Are we talking about using pressure applied to parts of the body (not the head and neck) to KO people? Where would this pressure be applied?

GroundStrength

21st January 2004, 06:34 AM

Originally Whined, Spit and Sputtered by thaiboxerken

I'm still wondering if you have gotten a reply from Mr Randi about your superpowers yet.

Originally Posted by Hannibal

LOL!

Have you heard back from Randi yet?

I have not received a response to my e-mail. Perhaps that is not the correct way to do it. I have filled out the application, maybe I can post the points in the challenge forum and take a few constructive comments on it.

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe
You have to admit though, from the outside perspective this looks an awful lot like the "No True Scotsman" routine that woo-woos run into the ground.

Yes, it does. But for my part there is nothing supernatural, or paranormal about it.

If this stuff worked you'd think that there would be someone in the world good enough to give a completely unambiguous demonstration.

I don't make a living doing this so I doesn't matter if I fail in that regard. If it really doesn't work I want to know as well. :)

If GS wins the million, of course, that person would be GS.

I look forward to the oppertunity.

Originally Posted by Jaymz
I'm sorry, I have now read the entire thread and one thing seems to have escaped me. What exactly is it that GroundStrength says he can do?

Using a combination of grappling (tuite jutsu) and striking (kyusho jutsu) on acupuncture points to KO someone. Using the TCM model for point selection.

Hannibal

21st January 2004, 08:59 AM

I think that the PP demo has to be light or no-touch. The reason for this is because it takes away the sheer physicality.

I would also suggest an 80% success rate at least. This would necessitate multiple KO's, but is importnat because not everyone responds to every technique. Even a right cross would not work against someone like, say, Oliver McCall because he is too bloody tough! Even the "foolproof" choke can be ineffective against some ("Farmer" Burns reportedly couldn't be choked out).

GS I like your approach in so far as you are not overly into the carnival theatrics of Dillman et al. I hope that you can be a success or at least a credible failure!:D

Bahala Na!

thaiboxerken

21st January 2004, 09:47 AM

Using a combination of grappling (tuite jutsu) and striking (kyusho jutsu) on acupuncture points to KO someone. Using the TCM model for point selection.

The debate is about acupuncture, acupressure or "light touch" KO's. I doubt that Randi or any other person will allow you to move your goal posts closer. Trying to combine "light touch" with striking is rather....... stupid. You can touch any part of the body, and strike the chin hard enough to get results.

Kevin_Lowe

22nd January 2004, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Using a combination of grappling (tuite jutsu) and striking (kyusho jutsu) on acupuncture points to KO someone. Using the TCM model for point selection.

The debate is about acupuncture, acupressure or "light touch" KO's. I doubt that Randi or any other person will allow you to move your goal posts closer. Trying to combine "light touch" with striking is rather....... stupid. You can touch any part of the body, and strike the chin hard enough to get results.

Knockouts caused by hitting a number of points in succession or separate points simultaneously could be a contender too.

If I were Randi, the acid test would be "Would a knowledgeable doctor agree that the proposed demonstration defies what we know of how the human body works?". If the answer is "yes" then we have a supernatural phenomenon to test. If the answer is "no", it's a cool trick and I want to learn how to do it but it's not a supernatural phenomenon.

As I mentioned earlier, some of these "points" are known and understood by medical science.