Moses and Jesus, which one was real? (with poll)

[davefoc]

Who is more likely to have been an actual historical figure, Jesus or Moses?

For the purposes of this poll historical figure is interpreted as this:
Jesus:
1. Person existed that served as inspiration for at least some of biblical Jesus stories.
2. At least some aspect of biblical stories about him must be true. Perhaps, the sermon on the mount, or maybe the "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" story.

Moses:
1. Must have been leader of a group of people that moved eventually into what is approximately Israel.
2. Must have been born in what is roughly Egypt.
3. Lived in approximately timeframe attributed to Moses.

My own cut at this, is that it is more likely that Jesus was an actual historical figure, but I think there's a strong case to be made that he wasn't.

My cut at the Moses story is that it is made up in its entirety. There is no archaeological evidence of large encampments in the desert suggesting no 40 years of wandering in the desert. There is no contemporary Egyptian writings about him. And he predated the writing about him by hundreds of years.

[c4ts]

Moses was probably originally a priest of Akhenaton (sp)?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by c4ts
Moses was probably originally a priest of Akhenaton (sp)?

According to Sigmund Freud (yes that one) in Moses and Monotheism, Moses was the son of Inkhnaton (sp?). That would explain the Osiris-like finding of Moses, without actually conflating the two legends. Moses would thereby have constructed the story about himself, but told the truth about his adult doings (up to a point).

I'm not sure I buy Freud's theory, though it's an interesting theory.

The Torah as we have it dates from the time of Ezra the Scribe (circa 250 BCE), but it wasn't original.

After that, the text is stable due to the nature of the scribal ideology.

[Abdul Alhazred]

The Torah as we have it dates from circa 250 BCE (Ezra) as noted in the previous post.

Since then the text has been stable and monkeying around with doctrine has concerned the interpretation and not the text itself (until the 19th century CE).

Moses is supposed to have been about 1000 years before Ezra.

If Moses is a made up character, the making up preceeded Ezra by centuries. There is no way really to tell what happened from other sources (so far).

I don't insist on proof, plausible inference is enough for me. So I definitely believe that King David and his Biblical contemporaries and near-contemporaries are historical figures. I'll get into this on another thread if anyone is interested. Please PM me if you start such a thread.

With Moses, I'm not so sure.

Besides Freud's Moses and Monotheism, a more recent good book on the question is Out of the Desert byWilliam H. Steibing, Jr.

[Abdul Alhazred]

With Jesus, the question is even more complex.

With Moses, it's just the vagueries of history. He did or he didn't exist.

But there may have been several "real" Jesuses.

According to Luke, Jesus was born during the census of Augustus. This census is definitely recorded in ancient Roman records.

Direct imperial control was imposed after the death of Herod.

According to Mark, Jesus was already an adult when John the Baptist was executed by Herod.

Either account may be true, but not both. Not if it's the same Jesus.

Could both be true, and "Jesus" is a synthesis of similar leaders?

Jesus-type ideas (some of them) were bouncing around that part of the world since the first century BCE. That includes Rabbi Hillel, who by some accounts founded Judaism as we know it now.

The Gospel of John adds the ideas of Hermes Trismagistus. That woiuld be the "modernist theologian" of Classical Paganism. "In the beginning was the word" and all that!

[ReasonableDoubt]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Since then [i.e., 250 BCE] the text has been stable and ...That is simply and demonstrably untrue.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
That is simply and demonstrably untrue.

So you say. Corroboration please? I'm willing to be demonstrated incorrect. I'll admit it if convinced.

Please! I really don't have a philosophical need to be right about this.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But so far, I don't think I am wrong.

[LW]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

Direct imperial control was imposed after the death of Herod.

According to Mark, Jesus was already an adult when John the Baptist was executed by Herod.

Either account may be true, but not both. Not if it's the same Jesus.

Actually, in this case the its the Herods who are not the same ...

The first Herod was Herod the Great (73 - 4 BC) and the second one is Herodes Antipas (ruled ~4BC - 39 AD), his son.

(And yes, the Gospel accounts about Jesus' birth are contradictionary and differ by about 10 years in time.)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by LW


Actually, in this case the its the Herods who are not the same ...

The first Herod was Herod the Great (73 - 4 BC) and the second one is Herodes Antipas (ruled ~4BC - 39 AD), his son.

(And yes, the Gospel accounts about Jesus' birth are contradictionary and differ by about 10 years in time.)

OK different Herods. Please tell me about different Jesuses. Thank you.

[hgc]

Moses? Jesus? For crying out loud! I'm trying to figure out if Joseph Smith was real! Dum dum dum dum!

[Bikewer]

From Monty Python:

The Pope is talking to Michealangelo. "Why did you paint THREE images of Our Lord?"

"The two skinny ones balance the fat one."

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by hgc
Moses? Jesus? For crying out loud! I'm trying to figure out if Joseph Smith was real! Dum dum dum dum!

While we're at it, what about Muhammad?

Demon possessed pedophile, or pedophilic charlatan?

[max]

well, mohammed was just another precocious kid wasn't he?:D
His parents would keep whispering words of wisdom in his earholes for him to pass onto the daft sods who would listen:D