fear OF heaven

[Trent Wray]

I'm just curious about something ...

I grew up in Texas, parents from Louisiana and I was taught about "classical bible belt Christian heaven and hell" when I was a child.

And I know I was supposed to be afraid of hell and want to live forever in heaven and all that, But, I was terrified at the idea of living forever, regardless of whether it was in a heaven or hell. The idea I would never cease to be scared me. I wanted to know I would rest and not wake up at some point. I wanted to know that at some point I would close my eyes and not even dream ... and the idea that I personally would "never end" depressed and horrified me, even if it was in a "happy heaven".

Anybody else have a similar feeling or experience concerning a fear of being "conciously eternal"?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Roger Ebert had that question recently:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=answerman


Q. In your review of "The Lovely Bones," you make some strange assertions. I think what you are describing is actually some kind of nirvana-like state. I would not fault you, except that you use the word "heaven," which is by and large a concept that belongs to Christianity (though this is doubtless because Christianity is so deeply tied to the development of the English language).

I cannot help but point out that in that idea of heaven, while it is true that the blessed are outside of time and space, this does not mean that they lack sensations or intellect, nor that they simply "are." Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that, according to this schema, the state of blessed can only be grasped by the living in the final stages of contemplative prayer, and even then it cannot be perfectly expressed with language or imagery, which is perhaps what makes the film somewhat unsatisfactory.

I would also point out that while you may have some theologians on your side (perhaps of the Paul Tillich school), I again think that referring to the thoughts that such thinkers might have had concerning the hereafter as corresponding to the idea of "heaven" is a little misleading.
Kevin Corbett, Perrysburg, Ohio

A. I'll let the professionals off the hook and take full responsibility for the theology in that review. It alarms me that one might remain with sensations and intellect forever. Forever. Without end. That, for me, would be a better definition of hell. I would prefer nirvana. Of course, I don't get to choose.

[CurtC]

But wouldn't you want to live in a happy heaven where you sing happy-clappy songs and worship the Great Leader and his son perpetually?



North Korea: Heaven on Earth

[Marquis de Carabas]

I've relayed the tale a time or two before, but you're new here (welcome, by the way), and it's been a while, so I'll dredge it out again.

One night near bedtime, as a small child of probably 5-7, I became incredibly terrified at the prospect of living forever. Mother had been talking earlier in the day about what great fun it would be to be in Heaven with Jesus and all her relatives and friends forever and ever, and the more I mulled it over, the more the thought of there always being one more day to get through frightened me. I could not sleep and could not shut up about it. My poor, long-suffering brother, five years my senior, finally had enough and came up with his own afterlife mythology on the fly: when you die, it went, you spend 100 years doing whatever it is you like best (I pictured myself in the video arcade), and then... nothing.

My brother, of course, was the font of all wisdom as far as I could tell, so I was suitably consoled and drifted soon and peacefully off to sleep.

[Marduk]

Anybody else have a similar feeling or experience concerning a fear of being "conciously eternal"?

With some of my relatives the prospect is not enthralling
;)

[Soapy Sam]

Anybody else have a similar feeling or experience concerning a fear of being "conciously eternal"?

Indeed. I can imagine nothing worse. I positively enjoyed the first 15 (or whatever) billion years of the universe, while being comfortably non-existent and I plan to spend most of the remaining few billion years the same way.

Life's fun, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it.

[Beerina]

I can't say I know I want to live forever, but I know damned sure 70 or so years ain't gonna cut it. :mad:

[JFrankA]

I'm just curious about something ...

I grew up in Texas, parents from Louisiana and I was taught about "classical bible belt Christian heaven and hell" when I was a child.

And I know I was supposed to be afraid of hell and want to live forever in heaven and all that, But, I was terrified at the idea of living forever, regardless of whether it was in a heaven or hell. The idea I would never cease to be scared me. I wanted to know I would rest and not wake up at some point. I wanted to know that at some point I would close my eyes and not even dream ... and the idea that I personally would "never end" depressed and horrified me, even if it was in a "happy heaven".

Anybody else have a similar feeling or experience concerning a fear of being "conciously eternal"?

I do not think you're alone in this.

During my time as a Catholic, "what exactly happens in heaven?" was a question that was completely brushed aside and left as this vague thing. One priest told me that when you die, you see the face of god for an instant. And because his face is so beautiful, when that image is taken away, you feel pain.

....but that doesn't sound like heaven to me.

Another priest said that I get to be with my dead relatives and friends, and do whatever I wanted. Being a teenager, and I'm being dead serious here, my first thought was sex with all the hot girls throughout history. Then I thought of the qualifier that they should be in their primes, of course, and further, would they be wearing clothes? And even further than that, how does a disembodied spirit have sex? Which lead me to this question: If a male child molester is in heaven, and he gets to do whatever he wants for eternity, who would be his victims? (I am serious, I really, really was thinking about this).

....no one had that answer.

Another priest told me that I will do nothing but worship god for all eternity, because that is something that I want to do.

....Then why the hell doesn't god just make people to do that already? And honestly, I don't WANT to be that bored for all eternity. That doesn't sound like heaven, that sounds like slavery.

It dawned on me that I don't want to be in heaven and that living on Earth for all eternity would be the closest thing to what heaven is. No spirits, no ghosts, just living out the life to see where we humans go.

But then, I thought of something else: video games. In video games, when you die, you just come back to life to same thing over and over again. It comes to the point where the person playing gets bored. Really bored. The excitement of the game comes from the fact that the player is trying NOT to end the game. That makes it exciting and fun.

Sure, it'll be great to find out where out technology takes us millions of years from now, but getting there would be fantastically boring. The thing that makes life so exciting is because we are mortal. That gives us a time limit. That is the spark that makes people like Dr. Borlaug a hero to millions of people who never had heard of him. Mortality makes heroes out of firefighters, doctors, scientists, etc.

Mortality gives us drives and goals. Makes us think twice, makes taking chances really taking chances and most of all, makes being alive and other people's lives very special.

I've been long winded in my answer, sorry about that, but basically, you are not alone.

Finally, for me, the best quote about heaven and immortality came from a wise robot, who said it best:

"The first ten million years - they were worst. The second ten million, well, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that, I went into a bit of a decline...."

[Cainkane1]

I'm just curious about something ...

I grew up in Texas, parents from Louisiana and I was taught about "classical bible belt Christian heaven and hell" when I was a child.

And I know I was supposed to be afraid of hell and want to live forever in heaven and all that, But, I was terrified at the idea of living forever, regardless of whether it was in a heaven or hell. The idea I would never cease to be scared me. I wanted to know I would rest and not wake up at some point. I wanted to know that at some point I would close my eyes and not even dream ... and the idea that I personally would "never end" depressed and horrified me, even if it was in a "happy heaven".

Anybody else have a similar feeling or experience concerning a fear of being "conciously eternal"?
I'm not adverse to a Heaven but I'd have to have some control of my environment. Even then I wonder what I'd be doing a thousand years after getting to the Pearly gates with gold streets on the other side. I doubt if even perpetual youth and Roamn style orgies would not get boring after awhile. If even angels can look down on earth and say hey look at those pretty girls and then come down and have kids with them I guess I'd get bored too.

[GanipGnop]

It's like CurtC said heaven is going to be hell if the descriptions are accurate an eternity of aggrandizement dedicated to one being forever and ever..... Amen. It is part of the reason so few people will go to heaven only the most pliable brainwashed sheep will be suitable for Yahweh's eternal gulag.

[Wowbagger]

Anybody else have a similar feeling or experience concerning a fear of being "conciously eternal"?It is more like an anger sensation, for me, than a fear.

[Soapy Sam]

Burt Bacharach and the Tijuana Brass.

For EVER.

[Fnord]

I dunno ... an eternity of listening to Enya music ... even with a new CD every five (terrestrial) years, it could get a might tedious...

[Eddie Dane]

I imagine a Christian rock festival. For ever.

Praise the Lord, brothers and sisters.

[Lanzy]

Live billions of years? I'd like to give it a try. I could easily spend a year each with famous people and do the first billion, then a few billion more with the un-famous. I could probably catch up on my reading. Can we visit all other planets in the universe?Got to be a way to opt out eventually though.

[sadhatter]

Along the same lines, i always like to question the believer with this. Sin makes up all of us, most of the things we like are sin in some way shape or form. Now if sin is purged, than the after effect is not me, it is a version of me missing all the interesting bits. And considering how likes are very closely tied to ones personality, one would not have nearly the same personality in heaven. I mean to think of my personality with no NSFH ( not safe for heaven) material...... besides skunks, MXPX , Face to face, and fried foods, there would be nothing left.

[The Shrike]

I always imagined (wished) that in heaven I'd get to go back to the dawn of the universe and watch it all unfold. This thought fascinates me, i.e., the idea that I could watch mountains rise, evolution in action, glaciers advance, and the sum total of world history. If I could do this, I don't think I would be bored - ever. If the universe is 14 billion years old, then I'd always have 14 billion years to catch up on, until the big guy decided to call it quits for all of us.

This idea always appealed to me way more than sitting around in a sheet telling god how awesome he was. I never understood why anyone would want to do that.

[aggle-rithm]

I'm just curious about something ...

I grew up in Texas, parents from Louisiana and I was taught about "classical bible belt Christian heaven and hell" when I was a child.

And I know I was supposed to be afraid of hell and want to live forever in heaven and all that, But, I was terrified at the idea of living forever, regardless of whether it was in a heaven or hell. The idea I would never cease to be scared me. I wanted to know I would rest and not wake up at some point. I wanted to know that at some point I would close my eyes and not even dream ... and the idea that I personally would "never end" depressed and horrified me, even if it was in a "happy heaven".

Anybody else have a similar feeling or experience concerning a fear of being "conciously eternal"?

I had that exact same problem. I went to Catholic school, and although I was taught about Heaven being a desirable place to go, I was given nothing that would help me to imagine what it would be like. I remember seeing a movie on TV that depicted Heaven as being a place where people hung out on clouds wearing halos. I found it very depressing. The thought of spending eternity like that was horrifying to me.

It also occured to me that, although it may start out being great, who knows what would happen after twenty trillion trillion trillion years? I mean, how did God KNOW we would want to live like that? Has he ever done this before? I pictured the entire human race going to God and begging for oblivion, and God suddenly realizing he had no idea what he was doing.

[sadhatter]

I always imagined (wished) that in heaven I'd get to go back to the dawn of the universe and watch it all unfold. This thought fascinates me, i.e., the idea that I could watch mountains rise, evolution in action, glaciers advance, and the sum total of world history. If I could do this, I don't think I would be bored - ever. If the universe is 14 billion years old, then I'd always have 14 billion years to catch up on, until the big guy decided to call it quits for all of us.

This idea always appealed to me way more than sitting around in a sheet telling god how awesome he was. I never understood why anyone would want to do that.

There is some sweet irony, if the christian god is real, then all you would get to see is him pulling a quarter out of his ear, then BAM the universe is there.
All the mind bending awesomeness would be taken out of the equation.

[RockNroll]

Well I guess I'm the only one who would more than welcome eternal existence (provided that the conditions are pleasant and varied enough). The only thing that bothers me about being an atheist is the fact that I will cease to exist and never think a single thought ever again.

I neither need nor want a magical sky nanny holding my hand and helping me through life. I neither need nor want my life to have an "official", "meaningful", gawd-approved purpose. I can make my own, thankyouverymuch.

However, I sure as hell would want to live forever! My uneasiness and fear about the absence of life after death is what caused me to stick to silly, new-age-ish notions of "energy-based consciousness that survives physical death" for a couple years after I stopped believing in god. And when I realized that this, too, was bull-poop, I felt some pretty deep existential terrors that took me a while to get over.

Even today, I'm none too happy about my eventual plunge into eternal oblivion. Which is why I awlays laugh when woos accuse me of "choosing not to believe in the afterlife because it suits me".

Although I must admit that most religion-based descriptions of the afterlife are even more depressing than total oblivion :)

[Third Eye Open]

Whenever I imagined a heaven or hell, my imaginings always ended up at a conclusion similar to Asimov's story 'The Last Answer'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Answer)

[Soapy Sam]

Well I guess I'm the only one who would more than welcome eternal existence (provided that the conditions are pleasant and varied enough). The only thing that bothers me about being an atheist is the fact that I will cease to exist and never think a single thought ever again.

I neither need nor want a magical sky nanny holding my hand and helping me through life. I neither need nor want my life to have an "official", "meaningful", gawd-approved purpose. I can make my own, thankyouverymuch.

However, I sure as hell would want to live forever! My uneasiness and fear about the absence of life after death is what caused me to stick to silly, new-age-ish notions of "energy-based consciousness that survives physical death" for a couple years after I stopped believing in god. And when I realized that this, too, was bull-poop, I felt some pretty deep existential terrors that took me a while to get over.

Even today, I'm none too happy about my eventual plunge into eternal oblivion. Which is why I awlays laugh when woos accuse me of "choosing not to believe in the afterlife because it suits me".

Although I must admit that most religion-based descriptions of the afterlife are even more depressing than total oblivion :)


I still tend to the opposite view. Being alive can hurt, in fact does hurt. Being dead seems unlikely to.
I will agree with you about the actual act of dying though. I don't look forward to that with pleasurable anticipation. But maybe that comes with time too

[Trent Wray]

Yes I am new here, and thanx for the great responses from everyone ...

I really like JFrankA's observation that mortality makes us heroes, makes life valuable, etc. My own death just gained value in my eyes as something precious in and of itself ... almost the thing that actually defines life in some ways.

Thank you everyone! Fascinating and thought provoking forums for sure ...

[Bikewer]

I listened to an interview with a physicist who was appalled at the idea of "eternal" life. Humans, he said, can barely cope with out "allotted span".

I think it's interesting to observe the changing notion of "Heaven" amongst believers. When I was a young Catholic lad, the Catholics were promoting a version that was pretty much like the "gold streets and mansions" view of the Protestants.
Then, apparently realizing this would get old fast, they came up with a notion of sort of basking in the "beatific vision" for all eternity. Just hanging with God....

Seems like that would get old quick too.

The idea of any eternal reward or punishment for anything that went on in our all-too-brief lives seems a cosmic joke to me.

[Shrike]

Just goes to show.
When you think a bit more about any aspect of (any) religion, it loses any sense or appeal whatsoever.

[aggle-rithm]

Just goes to show.
When you think a bit more about any aspect of (any) religion, it loses any sense or appeal whatsoever.

Which is why most religions warn against thinking.

[aggle-rithm]

I think it's interesting to observe the changing notion of "Heaven" amongst believers. When I was a young Catholic lad, the Catholics were promoting a version that was pretty much like the "gold streets and mansions" view of the Protestants.
Then, apparently realizing this would get old fast, they came up with a notion of sort of basking in the "beatific vision" for all eternity. Just hanging with God....


C.S. Lewis' visions of heaven from the Narnia books and "The Great Divorce" are the most compelling I've ever read. He had a real knack for creating stirring imagry with the written word. If I'd been read that in religion class I might have been fully on board...too bad he was a Protestant.

[Lothian]

Trentwray, I really recommend this book (http://www.amazon.com/Sum-Forty-Afterlives-David-Eagleman/dp/0307377342) Sum: Forty Tales from the Afterlives by David Eagleman.

From Publishers Weekly
Starred Review. A clever little book by a neuroscientist translates lofty concepts of infinity and death into accessible human terms. What happens after we die? Eagleman wonders in each of these brief, evocative segments. Are we consigned to replay a lifetime's worth of accumulated acts, as he suggests in Sum, spending six days clipping your nails or six weeks waiting for a green light? Is heaven a bureaucracy, as in Reins, where God has lost control of the workload? Will we download our consciousnesses into a computer to live in a virtual world, as suggested in Great Expectations, where God exists after all and has gone through great trouble and expense to construct an afterlife for us? Or is God actually the size of a bacterium, battling good and evil on the battlefield of surface proteins, and thus unaware of humans, who are merely the nutritional substrate? Mostly, the author underscores in Will-'o-the-Wisp, humans desperately want to matter, and in afterlife search out the ripples left in our wake. Eagleman's turned out a well-executed and thought-provoking book. (Feb.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Read it and then imagine your own heaven. Face facts a heaven you dream up is just as likely to be true as the biblical version.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

But wouldn't you want to live in a happy heaven where you sing happy-clappy songs and worship the Great Leader and his son perpetually?



North Korea: Heaven on Earth


You stole that joke from Christopher Hitchens. :D

Unless both you and Hitchens thought of the exact same thing independently of one another.