Euripides - The Bacchae

[Iacchus]

The following is the beginning of Euripides play, The Bacchae (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=eur.+ba. + 1) ...


Argument

Semele the daughter of Kadmos, a mortal bride of Zeus, was persuaded by Hera to pray the God to promise her with an oath to grant her whatsoever she would. And, when he had consented, she asked that he would appear to her in all the splendor of his godhead, even as he visited Hera. Then Zeus, not of his will, but constrained by his oath, appeared to her amidst intolerable light and flashings of heaven's lightning, whereby her mortal body was consumed. But the God snatched her unborn babe from the flames, and hid him in a cleft of his thigh, till the days were accomplished wherein he should be born. And so the child Dionysus sprang from the thigh of Zeus, and was hidden from the jealous malice of Hera till the child was grown. Then did he set forth in victorious march through all the earth, bestowing upon men the gift of the vine, and planting his worship everywhere. But the sisters of Semele scoffed at the story of the heavenly bridegroom, and mocked at the worship of Dionysus. And when Kadmos was now old, Pentheus his grandson reigned in his stead, and he too defied the Wine-giver, saying that he was no god, and that none in Thebes should ever worship him.

And herein is told how Dionysus came in human guise to Thebes, and filled her women with a Bacchanal possession, and how Pentheus, essaying to withstand him, was punished by strange and awful doom.


Dionysus

I, the son of Zeus, have come to this land of the Thebans--Dionysus, whom once Semele, Kadmos' daughter, bore, delivered by a lightning-bearing flame. And having taken a mortal form instead of a god's, I am here at the fountains of Dirke and the water of Ismenus. And I see the tomb of my thunder-stricken mother here near the palace, and the remnants of her house, smouldering with the still living flame of Zeus' fire, the everlasting insult of Hera against my mother. I praise Kadmos, who has made this place hallowed, the shrine of his daughter; and I have covered it all around with the cluster-bearing leaf of the vine.

I have left the wealthy lands of the Lydians and Phrygians, the sun-parched plains of the Persians, and the Bactrian walls, and have passed over the wintry land of the Medes, and blessed Arabia, and all of Asia which lies along the coast of the salt sea with its beautifully-towered cities full of Hellenes and barbarians mingled together; and I have come to this Hellene city first, having already set those other lands to dance and established my mysteries there, so that I might be a deity manifest among men. In this land of Hellas, I have first excited Thebes to my cry, fitting a fawn-skin to my body and taking a thyrsos in my hand, a weapon of ivy.

For my mother's sisters, the ones who least should, claimed that I, Dionysus, was not the child of Zeus, but that Semele had conceived a child from a mortal father and then ascribed the sin of her bed to Zeus, a trick of Kadmos', for which they boasted that Zeus killed her, because she had told a false tale about her marriage. Therefore I have goaded them from the house in frenzy, and they dwell in the mountains, out of their wits; and I have compelled them to wear the outfit of my mysteries. And all the female offspring of Thebes, as many as are women, I have driven maddened from the house, and they, mingled with the daughters of Kadmos, sit on roofless rocks beneath green pines. For this city must learn, even if it is unwilling, that it is not initiated into my Bacchic rites, and that I plead the case of my mother, Semele, in appearing manifest to mortals as a divinity whom she bore to Zeus.

Now Kadmos has given his honor and power to Pentheus, his daughter's son, who fights against the gods as far as I am concerned and drives me away from sacrifices, and in his prayers makes no mention of me, for which I will show him and all the Thebans that I was born a god. And when I have set matters here right, I will move on to another land, revealing myself. But if ever the city of Thebes should in anger seek to drive the the Bacchae down from the mountains with arms, I, the general of the Maenads, will join battle with them. On which account I have changed my form to a mortal one and altered my shape into the nature of a man.

But, you women who have left Tmolus, the bulwark of Lydia, my sacred band, whom I have brought from among the barbarians as assistants and companions to me, take your drums, native instruments of the city of the Phrygians, the invention of mother Rhea and myself, and going about this palace of Pentheus beat them, so that Kadmos' city may see. I myself will go to the folds of Kithairon, where the Bacchae are, to share in their dances.


P.S. For my own account of the Bacchae -- commonly known as the Maenads -- please see Chapter 4 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.html) of my book ... http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.html

[RussDill]

No. All you are doing is cutting and pasting. You aren't replying to questions in other threads but then starting another thread.

[hgc]

At least it's safe to say that it's in the public domain. Um, unless the copyright on the specific translation is in effect.

And what would you rather read? Some classic Greek drama or the usual nonsense from this poster?

[RussDill]

Don't really care anymore, it's clear that he doesn't want to participate in any type of discussion, but instead just preach his gospel.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by RussDill
Don't really care anymore, it's clear that he doesn't want to participate in any type of discussion, but instead just preach his gospel.

The way he keeps referring back to his book makes me deeply suspicious of his motives. I don't see any sort of advertising so I don't think it is anything as simple as ad revenue or a plan to otherwise make money from his book. Still his actions set off a little alarm in my head. Maybe he is hoping that someone on this board works for a publishing house and will "discover" him or maybe he has some other scam going that I am not aware of. Maybe I am just paranoid, I don't know...

[Dancing David]

I think it was Groucho who said "euripides, eumenedes".

[Wudang]

Originally posted by Iacchus
But the God snatched her unborn babe from the flames, and hid him in a cleft of his thigh,

Man, with a cleft that big in his thigh he must be one massive bloater! So much for the healthy mediterranean diet.

[c4ts]

If there's anything to be learned from the Baccae, it's that you should never imprison the god of wine on a drunk & disorderly charge.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

The way he keeps referring back to his book makes me deeply suspicious of his motives. I don't see any sort of advertising so I don't think it is anything as simple as ad revenue or a plan to otherwise make money from his book. Still his actions set off a little alarm in my head. Maybe he is hoping that someone on this board works for a publishing house and will "discover" him or maybe he has some other scam going that I am not aware of. Maybe I am just paranoid, I don't know... Motives? Yes, there are always motives involved ...

Or, maybe what it means is be careful of the charges that you level, because at some point you may have to back them up.

Such as was the case with cousin Pentheus anyway. ;)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Motives? Yes, there are always motives involved ...

Or, maybe what it means is be careful of the charges that you level, because at some point you may have to back them up.

Such as was the case with cousin Pentheus anyway. ;)

I don't know about the motives but I wonder about the point of your post, I am not joking, I am serious. "Bacchae" is one of my three favorite tragedies and I would be interested to explore the matter.

I took a glimpse at your web-site.
If I understood well, do you see a connection between Dionysus and Judaism? Have you read what Fraser says about the cult of Dionysus?

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


I don't know about the motives but I wonder about the point of your post, I am not joking, I am serious. "Bacchae" is one of my three favorite tragedies and I would be interested to explore the matter.

I took a glimpse at your web-site.
If I understood well, do you see a connection between Dionysus and Judaism? Have you read what Fraser says about the cult of Dionysus?

Personally, I am not surpised, since mythology was probably shared at many times. You can check out his online book, it does show some connections, but most of his book are about his visions, random connections he finds in his life, his mother, and his father's family jewels. I'm pretty sure he believes himself to be some sort of reincartation of the greek god of wine.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by RussDill

Personally, I am not surpised, since mythology was probably shared at many times. You can check out his online book, it does show some connections, but most of his book are about his visions, random connections he finds in his life, his mother, and his father's family jewels. I'm pretty sure he believes himself to be some sort of reincartation of the greek god of wine.

You are right of course. The Mythology of the people of Eastern Mediterannean has many similarities but very striking differences too. Dionysus is among those differences.

Also,lacchus, now that I am reading your web-site you are very wrong about the number 14 and its connection to the sign of Taurus. The Zodiac circle is not continuous at all, the symbolism is built on a 12 signs division, not to mention that Taurus doesn't symbolize cupid or lust but the womb. A totally different concept.

I don't want this to sound like a pun but your text is interesting though for educative reasons. If I was teaching Ancient Greek Culture I'd give it to my students as a project, to debunk it of course line by line.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I don't want this to sound like a pun but your text is interesting though for educative reasons. If I was teaching Ancient Greek Culture I'd give it to my students as a project, to debunk it of course line by line.

It's fun, unfortunately, I don't know much about greek culture or mythology. Somehow though, I have serious doubts about Dionysus being the greek god of testicles.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I don't know about the motives but I wonder about the point of your post, I am not joking, I am serious. "Bacchae" is one of my three favorite tragedies and I would be interested to explore the matter.

I took a glimpse at your web-site.
If I understood well, do you see a connection between Dionysus and Judaism? Have you read what Fraser says about the cult of Dionysus? Yes, I do see some connections between Dionysus and Judaism, and yes, I do have a copy of Fraser's, "The Golden Bough." However, I haven't found the time to read it.


Also,lacchus, now that I am reading your web-site you are very wrong about the number 14 and its connection to the sign of Taurus. The Zodiac circle is not continuous at all, the symbolism is built on a 12 signs division, not to mention that Taurus doesn't symbolize cupid or lust but the womb. A totally different concept.Thus far, I think most people have failed to understand what I'm trying to do with the numbers.


I don't want this to sound like a pun but your text is interesting though for educative reasons. If I was teaching Ancient Greek Culture I'd give it to my students as a project, to debunk it of course line by line.So what. History occurs in "the making," not in reading about it sometime after the fact. ;)

[Cleopatra]

Good evening Lacchus

( Why Lacchus BTW? :) )



Originally posted by Iacchus
Yes, I do see some connections between Dionysus and Judaism, and yes, I do have a copy of Fraser's, "The Golden Bough." However, I haven't found the time to read it.

It's an excellent book, you should read it. It's a classic actually, a tad pasee in some aspects but valuable because Fraser has double checked his sources and his references to ancient authors, so this makes his work very safe to use.

It can be accessed on line too. Sir James George Frazer,The Golden Bough --A Study in Magic and Religion (http://www.bartleby.com/196/)

In Chapter 43 he examines God Dionysus and he says:

IN THE PRECEDING chapters we saw that in antiquity the civilised nations of Western Asia and Egypt pictured to themselves the changes of the seasons, and particularly the annual growth and decay of vegetation, as episodes in the life of gods, whose mournful death and happy resurrection they celebrated with dramatic rites of alternate lamentation and rejoicing.[...]

In the ancient world, however, such ideas and such rites were by no means confined to the Oriental peoples of Babylon and Syria, of Phrygia and Egypt; they were not a product peculiar to the religious mysticism of the dreamy East, but were shared by the races of livelier fancy and more mercurial temperament who inhabited the shores and islands of the Aegean. We need not, with some enquirers in ancient and modern times, suppose that these Western peoples borrowed from the older civilisation of the Orient the conception of the Dying and Reviving God, together with the solemn ritual, in which that conception was dramatically set forth before the eyes of the worshippers.

More probably the resemblance which may be traced in this respect between the religions of the East and West is no more than what we commonly, though incorrectly, call a fortuitous coincidence, the effect of similar causes acting alike on the similar constitution of the human mind in different countries and under different skies. The Greek had no need to journey into far countries to learn the vicissitudes of the seasons, to mark the fleeting beauty of the damask rose, the transient glory of the golden corn, the passing splendour of the purple grapes.

http://www.bartleby.com/196/94.html

There is no doubt about the origins of the cult of Dionysus. Dionysus came from Thraca ( today's northeastern Greece) and it symbolized among other things cultivation, Dionysus was a spirit of the trees.

I don't know which are the connections you see with Judaism ( needless to say that I am interested in reading them!!) but if you have in mind this aspect of Dionysus, I will remind you that in the "pre-mosaic" era, in the era of the Patriarchs, the Semitic people ( meaning the people that were talking the semitic idiom) were worshiping the spirits of the trees, spirits that they were calling under the generic name El ( Elohim in plural).


Thus far, I think most people have failed to understand what I'm trying to do with the numbers.

I took it as an attempt from your part to show that nothing is coincidental and everything follows the circles of life , what the Pythagorians call the " Inner rythme of Life". In fact your reference to the numbers made me curious I took you for a neo-pythagorean.

Since the cult of Dionysus attracts your interest I strongly recommend the most fascinating work that has ever been writen about the Greek Civilization :E.R. Dodds ,The Greeks and the Irraltional (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anthony.campbell1/bookreviews/r/dodds.html)

So what. History occurs in "the making," not in reading about it sometime after the fact. ;)

Although I am not a Marxist and of course I am serious enough to ignore the French School of historiography I do recognize the aspect of History as a living process.

You are talking about the past though and this doesn't give you the right to talk about it as if it's just a fairy tale :)

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Motives? Yes, there are always motives involved ...

Or, maybe what it means is be careful of the charges that you level, because at some point you may have to back them up.

Such as was the case with cousin Pentheus anyway. ;)

What's to back up? I am merely voicing my own suspicions and doubts, that is a far cry from charging anyone with anything.

Besides, I thought in your world, speculations and wild guesses are just as good as hard facts (the coin of your realm and all that, remember?). I am specualting about your motives, therefore to you, that ought to be as good as a fact. Or does that only apply to YOUR specualtions, wild guesses, made-up-*****, etc.?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

What's to back up? I am merely voicing my own suspicions and doubts, that is a far cry from charging anyone with anything.

Besides, I thought in your world, speculations and wild guesses are just as good as hard facts (the coin of your realm and all that, remember?). I am specualting about your motives, therefore to you, that ought to be as good as a fact. Or does that only apply to YOUR specualtions, wild guesses, made-up-*****, etc.? Actually this wasn't leveled at you so much as some of the other yayhoo's posting on this forum, who don't think twice about slandering and shredding to pieces those things they don't understand. Your posts on the other hand, have at least "appeared" balanced and reasonable, so that isn't my complaint.

I was just using your post as an opportunity to address the attacks and allegations levied at me in general, Okay?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Good evening Lacchus

( Why Lacchus BTW? :) )It's not Lacchus, it's Iacchus with an "I." While Iacchus was the name given to the son of Demeter, and the name which was invoked at the Eleusinian Mysteries (often considered to be Dionysus).


There is no doubt about the origins of the cult of Dionysus. Dionysus came from Thraca ( today's northeastern Greece) and it symbolized among other things cultivation, Dionysus was a spirit of the trees.And yet it states specifically in The Bacchae that he was from Lydia (n 460-465).


I don't know which are the connections you see with Judaism ( needless to say that I am interested in reading them!!) but if you have in mind this aspect of Dionysus, I will remind you that in the "pre-mosaic" era, in the era of the Patriarchs, the Semitic people ( meaning the people that were talking the semitic idiom) were worshiping the spirits of the trees, spirits that they were calling under the generic name El ( Elohim in plural).The connections are primarily there due to the Hellenization of the area I believe. Which isn't to say there aren't enough connections to made between him and Christ either.


I took it as an attempt from your part to show that nothing is coincidental and everything follows the circles of life , what the Pythagorians call the " Inner rythme of Life". In fact your reference to the numbers made me curious I took you for a neo-pythagorean.Perhaps this is the way I should try to explain it then? However, I doubt it would make that much difference to many who post on this forum.


Since the cult of Dionysus attracts your interest I strongly recommend the most fascinating work that has ever been writen about the Greek Civilization :E.R. Dodds ,The Greeks and the Irraltional (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anthony.campbell1/bookreviews/r/dodds.html) Thanks, I may just look into it. ;)


Although I am not a Marxist and of course I am serious enough to ignore the French School of historiography I do recognize the aspect of History as a living process.

You are talking about the past though and this doesn't give you the right to talk about it as if it's just a fairy tale :) Yes, but neither does that mean the past should take precedent over the present, necessarily ... which, I think we're both already in agreement with anyway.

Thanks for the good post by the way!

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
It's not Lacchus, it's Iacchus with an "I." While Iacchus was the name given to the son of Demeter, and the name which was invoked at the Eleusinian Mysteries (often considered to be Dionysus).

Iacchus. Of course. Sorry about that but I have observed that many members don't use an initial capital letter even when their user name is a proper name, so I thought that you are en vogue.

From Iacchus comes the word iachai( pronounced: iache' ) that means wild, loud voices. You know the voice that use those that don't wish to discuss ;)

And yet it states specifically in The Bacchae that he was from Lydia (n 460-465).

Not really. Read more carefully please :) It says that he returns from Lydia to the homeland of his mother, Thebes :) Dionysus was a relatively new God in the Greek Pantheon. Homer doesn't mention him and his myth reflects the opinion Greeks have about the origin of the Dionysian cult. According to this myth after Dionysus invented wine Hera drove him mad and he left for Egypt from where he wondered through Syria and arrived in Phrygia, met Cybele who cured him of his madness and he returns to Greece through Trace.

Nothing mysterious here :)


The connections are primarily there due to the Hellenization of the area I believe. Which isn't to say there aren't enough connections to made between him and Christ either.

I think that the first mosaic from the Proto-Christian Era that comes from Syria depicts Jesus as a combination of Dionysus and Orpheus. In fact I do not think, I am positive about that.

Perhaps this is the way I should try to explain it then? However, I doubt it would make that much difference to many who post on this forum.

Do you ask me? I don't know, what do you mean with those numbers? The reason I don't approve of Pythagoreans is because they were vegetarians.Ok, I am not serious, at least not very serious. I do not believe in karma, correct me if I am wrong but the game of numbers suggests that there is karma involved.

What about those numbers anyway? Please do tell.


Thanks for the good post by the way!

Why do I have this funny feeling that you don't wish to discuss? :)

[sackett]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Iacchus. . . . From Iacchus comes the word iachai( pronounced: iache' ) that means wild, loud voices. You know the voice that use those that don't wish to discuss ;)

Oh great queen! who deigns to be merry with this lout! What graciousness!

Good one, Cleo. -(X^D