Hamas threatens attacks against Israeli targets abroad

[Thunder]

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=167299

To this day, Hamas has NEVER made any attacks outside of Israel, the WB, and Gaza. It has been there standing policy to limit the conflict to those lands that are involved.

But now, they believe one of their people was killed in the UAE, and they are considering for the first time, retaliating by hitting an Israeli target abroad.

This would be a dangerous and unwise step for Hamas.

Hamas is has some international support for the sole reason that they have limited their attacks to the region. If they choose to now attack Israelis and Israeli targets in say Britain, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Russia, etc...and in the process possibly injure or kill unintended targets, they will incur the wrath of the local population and find themselves with much fewer allies than they have today.

[boyntonstu]

The attack on Jews in Argentina by Iran didn't seem to bother anyone.

"He said that the breakthrough in the case came when he and his team identified with certainty the terrorist who carried out the truck bombing near the community center building in July 1994 - a Lebanese man, Ibrahim Hussein Berro. In the attack, 85 Argentines were killed and 230 were injured. Berro is believed to have come to Argentina a week or two before the attack. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/936041.html

[Thunder]

The attack on Jews in Argentina by Iran didn't seem to bother anyone.


prove it.

too late. you fail again.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/22/world/argentines-protest-bombing-as-death-toll-reaches-44.html?pagewanted=1

and again

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5190892.stm

.........again

http://ww4report.com/node/2690

[boyntonstu]

prove it.

too late. you fail again.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/22/world/argentines-protest-bombing-as-death-toll-reaches-44.html?pagewanted=1

and again

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5190892.stm

Well some Jews did, but was there a U.N. condemnation?

NEW YORK - Leading American Jewish organizations are planning a public relations campaign to urge Interpol to issue international arrest warrants for the perpetrators of a 1994 bombing attack against the Jewish community building in Buenos Aires.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909441.html


Has anything happened to the perpetrators?

Are civilian Jews anywhere in the world always considered fair targets?

[WildCat]

Hamas is has some international support for the sole reason that they have limited their attacks to the region. If they choose to now attack Israelis and Israeli targets in say Britain, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Russia, etc...and in the process possibly injure or kill unintended targets, they will incur the wrath of the local population and find themselves with much fewer allies than they have today.
But it would be OK if they just killed their intended targets?

[Skeptic]

Of course. It's just dead Jews. No big deal, you know. It's, er, "liberation" and "resistance" and stuff.

[Undesired Walrus]

Hamas is has some international support for the sole reason that they have limited their attacks to the region.

Huh? Among who? Fundamentalists? Is that support worth having?

If they choose to now attack Israelis and Israeli targets in say Britain, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Russia, etc...

With what?

[WildCat]

Huh? Among who? Fundamentalists? Is that support worth having?
Are these people fundamentalists?

vC5GgBlOs28

That was in London btw.

Would the people in the UK turn out by the thousands to cheer Hamas if they started blowing up targets in the UK?

[Thunder]

But it would be OK if they just killed their intended targets?

no. that would be bad too. but if they also kill unintended targets, like non-Israelis, the local population will get even more pissed.

[Thunder]

Of course. It's just dead Jews. No big deal, you know.

I thought it was standard operating procedure to accuse any linkage between all Israelis and all Jews, as anti-Semitic?

does this rule not apply when the accusation is made by someone with the Cohain haplotype?

[bigjelmapro]

prove it.

too late. you fail again.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/22/world/argentines-protest-bombing-as-death-toll-reaches-44.html?pagewanted=1

1994 article. No investigation at this point.


and again

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5190892.stm

.........again

http://ww4report.com/node/2690
July 2006 and an article which states extensively by the Iranians that its a Zionist plot to divert attention from Zionist control of the Argentinian government, and lately, to divert attention away from Palestine.

Yet you conveniently exclude Oct. 2006 when formal charges were made, 2007 evidence was provided that implicated the MEK, arrest warrants issued and in 2009, former Iran defense minister made the interpol list.

Oops. :eye-poppi

[Thunder]

1994 article. No investigation at this point.


July 2006 and an article which states extensively by the Iranians that its a Zionist plot to divert attention from Zionist control of the Argentinian government, and lately, to divert attention away from Palestine.

Yet you conveniently exclude Oct. 2006 when formal charges were made, 2007 evidence was provided that implicated the MEK, arrest warrants issued and in 2009, former Iran defense minister made the interpol list.

Oops. :eye-poppi

you posted the following:

boyntonstu http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5568375#post5568375)
The attack on Jews in Argentina by Iran didn't seem to bother anyone.

and my three links proved how very wrong you are. deal with it.

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100131/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_hamas

looks like Israel is now trying to justify the killing.

[WildCat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100131/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_hamas

looks like Israel is now trying to justify the killing.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

[Thunder]

i am slightly torn on the murdering terorrists issue.

#1. they have not been put on trial. i would prefer Israel try to capture them first. and it all else fails, kill them.

but it appears Israel is not interested in capturing them and putting them on trial. hmmm...

#2. what if they got the wrong guy? what if they end up killing the wrong guy? mistakes do happen...especially in extra-judicial killings.

#3. how does this effect Israel's relations with the nation where these killings take place? what does this do to Israel's image as a democracy?

The USA is also in a war against terrorism. And we have arrested many terrorists abroad. Perhaps Israel should take a lesson from us, and try to arrest people first..but kill when all else fails.

[WildCat]

i am slightly torn on the murdering terorrists issue.

#1. they have not been put on trial. i would prefer Israel try to capture them first. and it all else fails, kill them.

but it appears Israel is not interested in capturing them and putting them on trial. hmmm...
Yeah, I'm sure Dubai or Iran would have would have bent over backwards in arresting him and extraditing him to Israel.

#2. what if they got the wrong guy? what if they end up killing the wrong guy? mistakes do happen...especially in extra-judicial killings.
Not the case in this instance.

#3. how does this effect Israel's relations with the nation where these killings take place?
Israel has relations with Dubai?

what does this do to Israel's image as a democracy?
How is killing an enemy which is at war with you incompatible with democracy?

The USA is also in a war against terrorism. And we have arrested many terrorists abroad. Perhaps Israel should take a lesson from us, and try to arrest people first..but kill when all else fails.
Didn't they?

[Thunder]

Didn't they?

exactly how many Palestinian militants, be they Hamas, PLO, or PFLP, has Israel arrested and brought to trial, from overseas?

How many Al-Qaeda has the USA arrested and brought to trial, from overseas?

Israel seems to overly focus on killing first....ask questions later.

[WildCat]

exactly how many Palestinian militants, be they Hamas, PLO, or PFLP, has Israel arrested and brought to trial, from overseas?
I don't know exactly, but they've arrested thousands. I don't know how many from overseas, as Hamas, Hezbollah et al tend to only travel to countries which won't extradite anyone to Israel.

How many Al-Qaeda has the USA arrested and brought to trial, from overseas?
Probably close to a dozen. I can only think of 6 or 7 off hand.

Israel seems to overly focus on killing first....ask questions later.
Then how did all those militants end up in Israeli jails?

[bigjelmapro]

and my three links proved how very wrong you are. deal with it.
And in typical fashion, you gloss over actual current events following the links you provided that contradict your fallacious position. But hey, if the Iranian government says its a 'zionist plot' we should all believe them. :)

[Thunder]

But hey, if the Iranian government says its a 'zionist plot' we should all believe them. :)

i am surprised you feel that way.

[Darth Rotor]

Watcha gonna do when they come for you?

[r0ast_p0tat0es]

This would be a dangerous and unwise step for Hamas.

Every step Hamas takes is dangerous and unwise.

But in fairness to reality, they don't actually have much international support. They're already listed as a bonafied terrorist organisation by most of the world - certainly the West. Maybe they're wondering whether things could get any worse for them if they actually lived up to that name on an international level.

[Thunder]

Watcha gonna do when they come for you?

thank God I don't look too Jewish.

:p

[Skeptic]

I don't understand parky's point. Hamas threatens to kill Jews wherever it finds them all the time; that's its raison d'etre. One might as well have a headline: "Sun threatens to shine".

[Thunder]

Hamas threatens to kill Jews wherever it finds them all the time.

lie.

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/63790c2aa9e5b2b6

these men are Jews. Hamas did not try to kill them.

it seems that ALL you have now, is strawmen. and very easily refuted ones.

[Eddie Dane]

That would be stupid.

They should stick to their core business of firing thousands of rockets into the territory of the regions' most formidable military power.

Better stay on the safe side, otherwise something bad might happen.

[Skeptic]

You seem to think that smiling and being friendly with someone in a photo-op (http://mensa-barbie.com/bloggerimages/abbas_haniyeh_bomb_joy%20copy.JPG) is somehow evidence Hamas is not trying to kill them.

In fact, of course, it is no barrier against trying to kill them the next day (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9509/israel_peace/09-24/arafat_holdcap.jpg), when it suits one's purpose, in the Arab world in particular or in the larger world of dictatorial kleptocracies in general.

That Hamas' leader is smiling at idiot Neturey Karta folks doesn't mean he isn't trying to kill all the Jews he can (for which there is, of course, ample documentation) -- including them, once their usefulness in helping him kill other Jews is over; much like Ahmadejinad using these useful idiots (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lfH6fpz9oHE/S0S83rUHzRI/AAAAAAAAA0k/uBoMHQXysgk/s320/NATUREY.jpg) is certainly compatible with him planning a second holocaust.

Let us just note a few (http://onemansthoughts.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/chamberlain.jpg) more (http://www.rus-obr.ru/files/u15/Stalin_Ribbentrop.jpg) examples (http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00248/pg-23-kim-jong-il-e_248193s.jpg) of "smiling while thinking how to kill the sonsofbitches" -- I could easily give dozens more.

Jeez, Parky, how naive can you get?

[Thunder]

You seem to think that smiling and being friendly with someone in a photo-op (http://mensa-barbie.com/bloggerimages/abbas_haniyeh_bomb_joy%20copy.JPG) is somehow evidence Hamas is not trying to kill them.


yes. i do not believe that Hamas is seeking to kill all Satmar Chassidim.

nor do I think Hamas seeks to kill nice liberal American Jews, like myself. I hardly doubt they seek to kill moderate or even conservative American Jews, for that matter.

do you have any evidence to prove me wrong?

or maybe you gonna open up that new bail of straw?

;)

wait...wait...let me guess:

"they haven't gotten to it yet. Hamas hasn't killed any Jews in the USA or Canada or Britain or Russia or France or Argentina. but they're gettin' to it....believe you me!!!"

:p

[Skeptic]

Perhaps Israel should take a lesson from us, and try to arrest people first..but kill when all else fails.

The USA is certainly not arresting terrorists or others only when "all else fails".

Quite a few folks with whom the USA had had a few disagreements saw the business end of an American smart bomb recently, without anybody having made any previous attempt to arrest them.

Thank God.

[Thunder]

yes. i do not believe that Hamas is seeking to kill all Satmar Chassidim.

nor do I think Hamas seeks to kill nice liberal American Jews, like myself. I hardly doubt they seek to kill moderate or even conservative American Jews, for that matter.

do you have any evidence to prove me wrong?


Thought not.

I challenge anyone to find a statement by a high-level Hamas leader, stating that they consider all Jews throughout the world, their enemy, and that all Jews throughout the world, are legitimate targets.

"Hamas puts an end to suicide bombings"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/09/israel




In an editorial in The Guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) in January 2006, Khaled Meshaal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Meshaal), the chief of Hamas's political bureau stated:

"Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_book)" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected." "Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-Guardian31012006-34)






The Guardian reported Khaled Meshaal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Meshaal)'s statement that, "As a Palestinian today I speak of a Palestinian and Arab demand for a state on 1967 borders. It is true that in reality there will be an entity or state called Israel on the rest of Palestinian land." In the same article, Ismail Haniyeh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh), the Palestinian prime minister, was quoted as saying, "Israel is there, it is part of the United Nations and we do not deny its existence. But we still have rights and land there which have been usurped and until these matters are dealt with we will withhold our recognition,"[172] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-171)

[Sporanox]

yes. i do not believe that Hamas is seeking to kill all Satmar Chassidim.

nor do I think Hamas seeks to kill nice liberal American Jews, like myself. I hardly doubt they seek to kill moderate or even conservative American Jews, for that matter.


...please tell me that was sarcastic.

[Thunder]

...please tell me that was sarcastic.

um..do you actually think that Hamas seeks to kill the Satmar Chassidim?

do you actually think that Hamas seeks to kill liberal Jewish Americans?

what proof would you have to justify such a belief?

none? thought so.

thousands of Arab-Muslims live among thousands of Orthodox Jews, in NYC. and yet, there have been no Hamas terror operations against these Jews.

how can this be? lack of funds? lack of training? lack of leadership?

:)

[Sporanox]

um..do you actually think that Hamas seeks to kill the Satmar Chassidim?

do you actually think that Hamas seeks to kill liberal Jewish Americans?

what proof would you have to justify such a belief?

none? thought so.

thousands of Arab-Muslims live among thousands of Orthodox Jews, in NYC. and yet, there have been no Hamas terror operations against these Jews.

how can this be? lack of funds? lack of training? lack of leadership?

:)
Article Twenty-Two:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

"So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).

The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.

If they like to contradict their charter so much, they should amend it.

EDIT: to make the inference more clear, the charter predicts an inevitable war between Islam and...the forces of infidelity.

[Thunder]

If they like to contradict their charter so much, they should amend it.

EDIT: to make the inference more clear, the charter predicts an inevitable war between Islam and...the forces of infidelity.

if i had a dime for every time the Hamas Charter was quoted.

:p




In an editorial in The Guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) in January 2006, Khaled Meshaal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Meshaal), the chief of Hamas's political bureau stated:

"Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_book)" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected." "Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-Guardian31012006-34)



The Guardian reported Khaled Meshaal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Meshaal)'s statement that, "As a Palestinian today I speak of a Palestinian and Arab demand for a state on 1967 borders. It is true that in reality there will be an entity or state called Israel on the rest of Palestinian land." In the same article, Ismail Haniyeh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh), the Palestinian prime minister, was quoted as saying, "Israel is there, it is part of the United Nations and we do not deny its existence. But we still have rights and land there which have been usurped and until these matters are dealt with we will withhold our recognition,"[172] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-171)

[WildCat]

um..do you actually think that Hamas seeks to kill the Satmar Chassidim?

do you actually think that Hamas seeks to kill liberal Jewish Americans?

what proof would you have to justify such a belief?

none? thought so.

thousands of Arab-Muslims live among thousands of Orthodox Jews, in NYC. and yet, there have been no Hamas terror operations against these Jews.

how can this be? lack of funds? lack of training? lack of leadership?

:)
You could use this same "reasoning" to conclude Hitler didn't want to kill American Jews.

[WildCat]

if i had a dime for every time the Hamas Charter was quoted.
I know, why would anyone think their founding document has any meaning?

[Thunder]

I know, why would anyone think their founding document has any meaning?

has Israeli lived up to its Declaration of Independence? nope.

why? cause times change. facts on the ground change. politics change.

Hamas does not want to kill all the Jews on Earth, and has certainly not tried to. Hell, they abandoned suicide bombings. and their political leader acknowledged the reality of Israel.

[WildCat]

has Israeli lived up to its Declaration of Independence? nope.
Whether they do or not is irrelevant, as their DoI isn't the manifesto of a political party, as Hamas' Covenant is.

Hamas alone controls Hamas. Israel has many political parties which determine her course.

[Thunder]

Whether they do or not is irrelevant, as their DoI isn't the manifesto of a political party, as Hamas' Covenant is.

Israel's Decleration of Independence, is their founding document, and their declaration of intentions to the entire world.

and they fail it...quite sadly.

but back to the OP. Hamas has neither stated they want to kill all Jews...nor have they attempted to kill all Jews.

and honestly, Im getting fatigued of debating this damn topic about Hamas' intentions to kill all the Jews in our solar system. its quite boring.

[WildCat]

Israel's Decleration of Independence, is their founding document, and their declaration of intentions to the entire world.

and they fail it...quite sadly.
Sorry, doesn't refute my point at all.

Hamas alone is responsible for Hamas.

[Thunder]

...anyways.

[Sporanox]

Israel's Decleration of Independence, is their founding document, and their declaration of intentions to the entire world.

and they fail it...quite sadly.

but back to the OP. Hamas has neither stated they want to kill all Jews...nor have they attempted to kill all Jews.

and honestly, Im getting fatigued of debating this damn topic about Hamas' intentions to kill all the Jews in our solar system. its quite boring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

I find it hard to believe that Hamas is serious when they could just REVISE THE CHARTER.

[Thunder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

I don't speak Francais.

;)

[MaGZ]

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=167299

To this day, Hamas has NEVER made any attacks outside of Israel, the WB, and Gaza. It has been there standing policy to limit the conflict to those lands that are involved.

But now, they believe one of their people was killed in the UAE, and they are considering for the first time, retaliating by hitting an Israeli target abroad.

This would be a dangerous and unwise step for Hamas.

Hamas is has some international support for the sole reason that they have limited their attacks to the region. If they choose to now attack Israelis and Israeli targets in say Britain, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Russia, etc...and in the process possibly injure or kill unintended targets, they will incur the wrath of the local population and find themselves with much fewer allies than they have today.

Israel has always been trying to provoke Hamas. That is exactly what they did leading up to the Gaza War last year. Israel wanted Hamas to fire the rockets into Israel.

[FireGarden]

I know, why would anyone think their founding document has any meaning?

Do you mean Hamas' charter?, which includes this quote:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

[...]


"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).

[Skeptic]

Israel's Decleration of Independence, is their founding document, and their declaration of intentions to the entire world.

and they fail it...quite sadly.To see the difference between not living up to ideals of justice and equality as "evidence" that someone else living up to the ideals of genociding millions surely doesn't really mean it, is like saying the guy with a knife shouting "I'll kill you!" is harmless because he is no different than the man writing the new year resolution "I will lose weight!"

As Charles Babbage said, I can't quite fathom the kind of mind that gives rise to this sort of confusion.

um..do you actually think that Hamas seeks to kill the Satmar Chassidim?

do you actually think that Hamas seeks to kill liberal Jewish Americans?

what proof would you have to justify such a belief?Well, there is this (http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=345) and this (http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/935.htm) and this (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129242) (asking for the killing of Jews "all over the world"), and this (http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html) and this (http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/video/la_hamas_supporters_scream_long_live_hitler_put_je ws/) and this (http://sheikyermami.com/2009/01/18/berlin-court-hamas-flags-okay-call-to-murder-jews-banned/) and this (http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275894.html) (the second video in particular, about Jews -- actually Hassidic ones, the ones you claim Hamas has nothing against -- shown drinking gentile blood), to use the results of a few quick googlings.

I'm sure there are hundreds more. And by the way, just because you try to explain away the Hamas charter doesn't mean it doesn't count or doesn't exist. If they don't mean it, they should change it. But it is beyond comprehension why you, one of their intended targets according to their own words, are taking it upon yourself to "explain" they don't really mean it.

You know, the last time somebody seriously suggested, "true, these guys keep saying they will kill all us Jews, but surely they just means other types of Jews, the trouble-making kind, not me" was in the Warsaw ghetto ca. 1942. We all know how that turned out. I always thought that lesson was seared into the Jewish consciousness, but apparently, I was wrong.

[Thunder]

You know, the last time somebody seriously suggested, "true, these guys keep saying they will kill all us Jews, but surely they just means other types of Jews, the trouble-making kind, not me" was in the Warsaw ghetto ca. 1942. We all know how that turned out. I always thought that lesson was seared into the Jewish consciousness, but apparently, I was wrong.

:D:D:p:p;);):):)

you're breaking my heart, Skeptic.

Using the Holocaust as an appeal to emotion is very clever (actually, its not that clever, its kind of a cliche)...but you still FAIL.

[bigjelmapro]

i am surprised you feel that way.
Yes. I speak for the Iranian government.

I'm curious, do you actually type out a reply that actually has to do with what you're replying to or is it simply a random reply generator? I go for the latter.

It is quite the upgrade from the usual kneejerk reply of a handful of smiley faces (version 1.1?, ie above), but I'm sure that will be your next one.

[Thunder]

I'm curious, do you actually type out a reply that actually has to do with what you're replying to or is it simply a random reply generator? I go for the latter.

yes. :p

[WildCat]

Do you mean Hamas' charter?, which includes this quote:
Except that every little thing tends to antagonize Muslim extremists like Hamas. Salman Rushdie, Danish cartoons, false rumors about desecrating a Koran, etc etc.

All reasons to go on a killing spree it seems.

[Thunder]

Except that every little thing tends to antagonize Muslim extremists like Hamas. Salman Rushdie, Danish cartoons, false rumors about desecrating a Koran, etc etc.

i dont recall Hamas going on a killing spree after the Danish cartoon incident.

[WildCat]

i dont recall Hamas going on a killing spree after the Danish cartoon incident.
Hell, political opposition sends Hamas on a torture and killing spree.

[Sporanox]

Hell, political opposition sends Hamas on a torture and killing spree.

Yeah, I was about to say that. We sure can trust an Muslim organization (promising to coexist in peace with all Jews) that kills fellow Muslims at the drop of a hat. :rolleyes:

[Thunder]

Hell, political opposition sends Hamas on a torture and killing spree.

if you say so.

[Sporanox]

if you say so.

Are you disputing that, parky?

[Thunder]

Are you disputing that, parky?

disputing what?

[Skeptic]

Yeah, I was about to say that. We sure can trust an Muslim organization (promising to coexist in peace with all Jews) that kills fellow Muslims at the drop of a hat. :rolleyes:

And Jews, and Christians, and...

...well, you get the point.

[FireGarden]

Except that every little thing tends to antagonize Muslim extremists like Hamas.

So the point of highlighting the importance of Hamas' charter is to ignore some of the things it says. After all, we gauge their intentions by their actions -- like Parky tried to do by saying that Hamas hasn't attacked Jews outside of Israel. But Parky's wrong because of what it says in the Hamas charter -- because Hamas would change the charter if it didn't believe in it. Except, of course, for the bits of the Hamas charter which are of no importance.

If that isn't your position, can you see why some might think it is your position?

[WildCat]

So the point of highlighting the importance of Hamas' charter is to ignore some of the things it says.
Who ignored them? They used the term "antagonize" in their charter, wasn't my word. What do you think they consider "antagonize" to mean?

After all, we gauge their intentions by their actions -- like Parky tried to do by saying that Hamas hasn't attacked Jews outside of Israel.
And I haven't had wild passionate sex with Jennifer Connelly... don't confuse actions with ability.

But Parky's wrong because of what it says in the Hamas charter -- because Hamas would change the charter if it didn't believe in it. Except, of course, for the bits of the Hamas charter which are of no importance.
I'm not discounting any of Hamas' charter. I just interpret it differently. Mainly, "don't upset us (and the list of what it takes to upset a extremist Muslim militant group like Hamas is quite extensive) and we won't try to kill you".

Fatah upset them by opposing them politically, and for that Hamas rounded up Fatah supporters and tortured them to death. What on earth leads you to believe these are reasonable people who can be a responsible part of the peace process?

[Thunder]

But Parky's wrong because of what it says in the Hamas charter -- because Hamas would change the charter if it didn't believe in it.


:p:p:p:p

[Skeptic]

Hamas doesn't want to kill all Jews -- only those who are breathing. If the Jews is already dead, they've got no problem with them.

[Thunder]

Hamas doesn't want to kill all Jews -- only those who are breathing. If the Jews is already dead, they've got no problem with them.

please let us know when you have something to contribute, OTHER than silly strawman arguments.

:D:);):p

I'm still waiting for Hamas to carry out an attack outside of Israel. if they REALLY wanted to kill all Jews, just cause they are Jews, they would have done so by now. Especially since it is a lot easier to hit targets outside of Israel. Honestly, this right-wing Zionist propaganda just ain't workin'.

[bigjelmapro]

Where's this right-wing bit again? I've asked in a number of threads, but yet have yet to explain why this would be classified as right-wing.

Plenty has been stated about the Hamas charter and their usage of the al-Bukhari hadith justifying the killing of Jews outside of Israel. Other Islamist terrorist groups have carried out such motivations based on this very hadith.

Time to take a refresher course on what a strawman fallacy is....

[bigjelmapro]

What on earth leads you to believe these are reasonable people who can be a responsible part of the peace process?
Because movies like 'Endgame' (@ the end, where Hamas is mentioned) makes one think that terrorist organizations like Hamas are reasonable and have the ability to conduct peace negotiations outside of the generic Hudna.

[Thunder]

I will accept that Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth, when they start killing non-Israeli Jews outside of Israel.

Until then, it is bunk.

[applecorped]

I will accept that Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth,

Of course you will.

[bigjelmapro]

I will accept that Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth, when they start killing non-Israeli Jews outside of Israel.

Until then, it is bunk.
Nope. Until you choose to read the Hamas charter, their intent remains the same, regardless of your stubbornness to accept it.

So until its revised, amended, burned to a cinder, or Hamas finds Jesus, this intent remains (as with all groups that refer or relate themselves as wings of the Muslim Brotherhood).

[Thunder]

Nope. Until you choose to read the Hamas charter, their intent remains the same, regardless of your stubbornness to accept it.

supposed intent, is one thing. actual policies and day-to-day actions, is a whoooooooole other story.

Just like Israel and its Declaration of Independence.

stubbornness to accept it= "you are stupid if you do not accept my interpretation of truth".

[Sporanox]

I will accept that Hamas seeks to kill all Jews on Earth, when they start killing non-Israeli Jews outside of Israel.

Until then, it is bunk.

Look, we're not saying that Hamas is actively tracking you down, just that if they had the opportunity to kill you, they probably would for silly reasons. In other words, they aren't the type of group to place any special value on human life.

[Thunder]

Look, we're not saying that Hamas is actively tracking you down, just that if they had the opportunity to kill you, they probably would for silly reasons.

And I am saying, that Hamas has had the means, the man-power, the money, and the opportunity, to kill Jews ALLLL over this wide world, for many many years.

and yet...they have failed to do so. and why? because they have not ordered their soldiers to attack Israelis outside of Israel....let alone Jews.

why? because they have made a tactical decision to limit their conflict with Israel to within Israel itself and the occupied territories.

based purely on their actions...over the last 19 years...I see no reason to believe they wish any harm to me, my family, or any other Jews in the United States, Canada, Russia, Britain, Argentina, etc.

Do they and have they targeted Israeli civilians...in Israel and the WB and Gaza? Yes, they have. And it is illegal to do so.

p.s....I would LOVE to see someone argue that Hamas is actually trying to kill Jews outside of Israel, let alone Israelis, but they just don't have the man-power, technical knowledge, or funds to complete their missions. I'd love it.

[NoZed Avenger]

Israel has always been trying to provoke Hamas. .

Agreed. All that incessant breathing they are are always up to.

[Sporanox]

And I am saying, that Hamas has had the means, the man-power, the money, and the opportunity, to kill Jews ALLLL over this wide world, for many many years.

Really. I wonder why you believe this.

Perhaps Hamas has the ability to get some schmuck to shoot Jews in Paris or someplace, but the risk/reward ratio is rather high in that case. I doubt that they would be able to convince tools like Jimmy Carter to give them PR, henceforth.

[Thunder]

Really. I wonder why you believe this.

Perhaps Hamas has the ability to get some schmuck to shoot Jews in Paris or someplace, but the risk/reward ratio is rather high in that case. I doubt that they would be able to convince tools like Jimmy Carter to give them PR, henceforth.

excuses...excuses...excuses.

Hamas is a well-funded and popular group. they have supporters all over this world, in many countries that have large Jewish populations.

if they wanted to attack Jews outside of Israel, it would be done.

they could give the order today, and in 4 days there would be gunshots outside my synagogue.

[Sporanox]

excuses...excuses...excuses.

Hamas is a well-funded and popular group. they have supporters all over this world, in many countries that have large Jewish populations.

if they wanted to attack Jews outside of Israel, it would be done.

they could give the order today, and in 4 days there would be gunshots outside my synagogue.

I know you don't have any convincing proof for that statement, so I won't ask.

Beyond that, though, there is always the matter of risk/reward. Hamas doesn't want to tick too many people off.

[Thunder]

I know you don't have any convincing proof for that statement, so I won't ask.

are you actually telling me, that Hamas does not have support in the Muslim slums of London, Paris, Berlin? they have no support among the Muslims of Montreal and Toronto? in Jersey City, NJ?

self-delusion is a fascinating phenomenon.

[Sporanox]

are you actually telling me, that Hamas does not have support in the Muslim slums of London, Paris, Berlin? they have no support among the Muslims of Montreal and Toronto? in Jersey City, NJ?

self-delusion is a fascinating phenomenon.

Support is different than legions of minions.

Duh.

[MikeMangum]

Do you mean Hamas' charter?, which includes this quote:

Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam.

You do know what this means, right?

[FireGarden]

Who ignored them? They used the term "antagonize" in their charter, wasn't my word. What do you think they consider "antagonize" to mean?

You ignored some of the words, by fixing on a peculiar interpretation of only one part of what I quoted.

I'm not discounting any of Hamas' charter. I just interpret it differently. Mainly, "don't upset us (and the list of what it takes to upset a extremist Muslim militant group like Hamas is quite extensive) and we won't try to kill you".

You would have a point if they said "don't antagonize us, or we'll kill you". But they didn't say that. They said they will not antagonize you if you don't antagonize them. Sounds like a quid pro quo type of thing.

Fatah upset them by opposing them politically, ...

...and militarily!




are you actually telling me, that Hamas does not have support in the Muslim slums of London, Paris, Berlin? they have no support among the Muslims of Montreal and Toronto? in Jersey City, NJ?

self-delusion is a fascinating phenomenon.

Of course they have no support, that's why certain charities have to be made illegal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8071113.stm

[FireGarden]

You do know what this means, right?

Yes, it means they want an Islamic state.
That is different to wanting to kill all the Jews.

[Thunder]

You do know what this means, right?

it surely does NOT mean "all Jews must die a miserable death".

[Sporanox]

...and militarily!

In this clip, Jamal Najar, a popular Palestinian singer in the West Bank, describes how some of his cousins in Gaza were murdered by Hamas over the last few days, including a father who was shot dead in front of his children, for the crime of having walked out of his house:

The Murder of Palestinians in Gaza (http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2009/01/murder-of-palestinians-in-gaza.html)

I wonder how that guy walking out of his house upset Hamas militarily.

[WildCat]

The Murder of Palestinians in Gaza (http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2009/01/murder-of-palestinians-in-gaza.html)

I wonder how that guy walking out of his house upset Hamas militarily.
FireGarden will ignore this post.

[WildCat]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-february-2-2010/story-hole---children-s-cartoons-from-hamas

No anti-semitism there...

[Skeptic]

The Murder of Palestinians in Gaza (http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2009/01/murder-of-palestinians-in-gaza.html)

I wonder how that guy walking out of his house upset Hamas militarily.

Hamas' definition of "upset us" means "not be a Hamas supporter". Everybody else has no rights and can be killed at will.

History shows, by the way, that such groups (from the Communists to the Nazis) rather quickly start turning on themselves, killing everybody who isn't their sort of Hamas supporter (or Nazi, or Communist, etc.) as a "traitor".

[Sword_Of_Truth]

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=167299

To this day, Hamas has NEVER made any attacks outside of Israel, the WB, and Gaza. It has been there standing policy to limit the conflict to those lands that are involved.

But now, they believe one of their people was killed in the UAE, and they are considering for the first time, retaliating by hitting an Israeli target abroad.

This would be a dangerous and unwise step for Hamas.

Hamas is has some international support for the sole reason that they have limited their attacks to the region. If they choose to now attack Israelis and Israeli targets in say Britain, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Russia, etc...and in the process possibly injure or kill unintended targets, they will incur the wrath of the local population and find themselves with much fewer allies than they have today.

Worried that Hamas might actually be a terrorist group and you won't be able to defend them anymore, Parky?

[FireGarden]

The Murder of Palestinians in Gaza (http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2009/01/murder-of-palestinians-in-gaza.html)

I wonder how that guy walking out of his house upset Hamas militarily.

The reason he wasn't supposed to leave his house was because he was under house arrest -- I would assume since Fatah's attempted coup failed. (And, yes, horrible as Hamas are, that is the way it happened).

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hamas-gangs-kill-fatah-members-gaza

Jamal Najar, popular Palestinian singer:
"I express my condolences to my cousins, some of them were killed yesterday by the gangs of the anarchic [Hamas] security forces in the Gaza Strip... The father was killed right in front of his children, because he didn't stay at home, after they placed him under house arrest, he and everyone who belongs to Fatah."

Summary execution for breaking that house arrest is very extreme and I disagree with it.

Hamas, of course, have killed plenty of people who posed no direct military threat to them. Some suicide bombings spring to mind. But, even though Israeli civilians were murdered in this way it would be stupid to cite them in an argument that claims Israel has not opposed Hamas militarily. Of course it has. And Hamas has responded with terrorism.

[Sporanox]

The reason he wasn't supposed to leave his house was because he was under house arrest -- I would assume since Fatah's attempted coup failed. (And, yes, horrible as Hamas are, that is the way it happened).

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hamas-gangs-kill-fatah-members-gaza



Summary execution for breaking that house arrest is very extreme and I disagree with it.

Hamas, of course, have killed plenty of people who posed no direct military threat to them. Some suicide bombings spring to mind. But, even though Israeli civilians were murdered in this way it would be stupid to cite them in an argument that claims Israel has not opposed Hamas militarily. Of course it has. And Hamas has responded with terrorism.

As near as I can tell, you argument is that Hamas has behaved somewhat rationally when one breaks down their actions to the most basic level - they get hit, they try to hit back, etc. The counterpoint to this is, of course, the inherent unpredictability and untrustworthiness of an organization that shows little tolerance for dissent or provocation and a startling lack of regard for human life in general. In short, they have lived up to enough of their charter for us to take it seriously as an expression of their movement.

About those civilian casualties... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs&feature=player_embedded)

[FireGarden]

As near as I can tell, you argument is that Hamas has behaved somewhat rationally when one breaks down their actions to the most basic level - they get hit, they try to hit back, etc. The counterpoint to this is, of course, the inherent unpredictability and untrustworthiness of an organization that shows little tolerance for dissent or provocation and a startling lack of regard for human life in general. In short, they have lived up to enough of their charter for us to take it seriously as an expression of their movement.

About those civilian casualties... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs&feature=player_embedded)

I can't watch videos at the moment -- a recurring problem on this computer. I'm guessing you're making the same point as BeAChooser in this thread:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4348257

citing situations like this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article624690.ece

By the thousands they descended on Beit Hanoun, answering Hamas’s overnight radio pleas to rescue besieged Palestinian gunmen from the mosque.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6166998.stm

And, as I told BeAChooser back then, it reminded me of Dunkirk.

And, as I also said back then, it is a contrast to this use of Human shields:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/Index.asp

[Thunder]

Worried that Hamas might actually be a terrorist group and you won't be able to defend them anymore, Parky?

yes...that's it. you got me!!

:D:p

[Sword_Of_Truth]

History shows, by the way, that such groups (from the Communists to the Nazis) rather quickly start turning on themselves, killing everybody who isn't their sort of Hamas supporter (or Nazi, or Communist, etc.) as a "traitor".

Or they might stop short of killing you and instead just hold you down and shave your mustache:


Fatah leader loses mustache in power struggle with Hamas (http://americanmustacheinstitute.org/cs/blogs/ami_administration/archive/2008/01/02/middle-east-outrage-fatah-leader-loses-mustache-in-power-struggle-with-hamas.aspx)

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

A top Fatah official who was kidnapped on Monday has been released after his abductors shaved off his mustache.

Fatah officials held Hamas responsible, saying the act was designed to humiliate Ibrahim Abu al-Naja, who is one of the most senior leaders of Fatah in the Gaza Strip.

[bigjelmapro]

supposed intent, is one thing. actual policies and day-to-day actions, is a whoooooooole other story.

That has been the position from the get-go and has been clearly stated as such, yet you seem to obfuscate and backpedal this matter by stating that they have no intent since they haven't acted on it yet or acted on it repeatedly. Intent is there, which has been established via Hamas's own sources.

Just like most offshoots/wings of the Muslim Brotherhood who follow this hadith:
Sahih Bukhari, Book 52, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176 (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html)

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

It is a policy of those organizations, albeit a long-term one. Other offshoots/wings of the Muslim Brotherhood have indeed acted upon it, ie Al Qaida.

Hamas has decided for the time being to keep their terrorist operations within Israel and the disputed territories in order to garner 'sympathy' for their 'cause' since killing non-Jewish kaffirs won't work to their advantage. This decision does not have to do with their policy/desire of not killing Jews worldwide in the long-run.

Mind you, there have been cases, ie Ahmed Wahabe, who was trained by Hamas, to target Jews residing in the US and Canada. So there do exist proxy operatives trained and financed by Hamas to attack Jews outside Israel and the disputed territories.

Sources: Stewart Bell, “A Student of Terror: How a Windsor Man was Recruited by Hamas,” National Post,
September 9, 2005.

“Hamas-Trained Terrorist, Canadian National, Arrested by ISA,” Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Press Release, December 8, 2003

Either way, you're wrong in all accounts.


Just like Israel and its Declaration of Independence.

You point out strawman fallacies on a daily basis (albeit incorrect most of the time). How do you expect to be taken seriously? Oh wait, that's not your intention is it?

Take note, your quote is an actual strawman fallacy.


stubbornness to accept it= "you are stupid if you do not accept my interpretation of truth".
You almost made some progress in the beginning of your reply, yet now you are at step 1 yet again.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

That has been the position from the get-go and has been clearly stated as such, yet you seem to obfuscate and backpedal this matter by stating that they have no intent since they haven't acted on it yet or acted on it repeatedly. Intent is there, which has been established via Hamas's own sources.

Sometimes, I swear this forum is stuck in 1934.

If it's not the froot loops swearing the jews are behind everything over in the CT/911CT section, its people here in Politics or Current Events who apperantly claim with complete seriousness "Oh, they aren't serious when they say they're going to kill us all."

Really?! How did that attitude work out for you guys the last time?

[Thunder]

I am curious as to who among the Jews claimed that the Nazis meant us no harm. How many Jews had such an opinion?

How many and which prominent Jews believed that Hitler was ONLY a threat to the Jews of Germany?

[WildCat]

I am curious as to who among the Jews claimed that the Nazis meant us no harm. How many Jews had such an opinion?

How many and which prominent Jews believed that Hitler was ONLY a threat to the Jews of Germany?
But Hitler was no threat to Jews in the US, Canada, the United Kngdom, or anywhere else not occupied by Germans (except Vichy France), yes? :rolleyes:

[Thunder]

But Hitler was no threat to Jews in the US, Canada, the United Kngdom, or anywhere else not occupied by Germans (except Vichy France), yes? :rolleyes:

I am curious (again) as to who among the Jews claimed that the Nazis meant us no harm. How many Jews had such an opinion?

How many and which prominent Jews believed that Hitler was ONLY a threat to the Jews of Germany?

http://thm-a02.yimg.com/nimage/045ebee829abfdb4

[WildCat]

I am curious (again) as to who among the Jews claimed that the Nazis meant us no harm. How many Jews had such an opinion?

How many and which prominent Jews believed that Hitler was ONLY a threat to the Jews of Germany?
Hitler didn't kill any Jews in the USA, therefore he wasn't a threat to them.

Sound familiar parky?

[TriskettheKid]

Hitler didn't kill any Jews in the USA, therefore he wasn't a threat to them.

Sound familiar parky?

Yeah, good luck with that line of reasoning.

I tried the exact same argument previously. He'll just ignore it.

[Thunder]

Hitler didn't kill any Jews in the USA, therefore he wasn't a threat to them.

Sound familiar parky?

that is correct. Hitler did not kill any Jews in the USA. he also didn't kill any Americans in the USA.

are you suggesting that Germany was not the enemy of the USA?

no deaths on American soil, of American citizens. by your logic, this means he was not an enemy of the USA and the American people.


hmmm...but wait. didn't the Nazis treat Jewish-American POWs incredibly harshly? much more than all other American POWs?

yes. yes they did. so when they had the ability to mistreat American Jews, they surely did.

unlike Hamas. who certainly has supporters and even members in the USA or Britain or Canada or Germany. but yet, no attacks on Jews.

its as if the Nazis had footsoldiers in Russia or France, but they didn't harm Jews one bit.

but we know that wasn't the case.

[Thunder]

Honestly folks, arguing that Hamas wants to kill all Jews on Earth, is as stupid as arguing that Israel wants to kill all Muslims on Earth.

[Thunder]

Hamas started its suicide attacks against Israeli civilians in 1993, which was 17 years ago. They have an annual budget of $70 million.

and as of yet, they have killed exactly ZERO Jews outside of Israel..and they have attempted to kill or even injure exactly ZERO Jews...outside of Israel.

is this cause they don't have enough money? doubt it.

is this cause they don't have enough support outside of the Palestinians territories? doubt it.

is this cause they don't have any technical skill..outside of Palestine? doubt it.

what then...could the possible reason be?

[WildCat]

what then...could the possible reason be?
Strategic.

Did you see the Jon Stewart video I posted? The Hamas cartoon where Jerws drink the blood of Palestinians?

[Thunder]

Strategic.


please expand on that. what is their strategy for committing genocide against the Jews of Planet Earth?

[WildCat]

please expand on that. what is their strategy for committing genocide against the Jews of Planet Earth?
First they have to kill the Jews in Israel and reclaim Palestine. Why would they start attacking elsewhere before that goal is accomplished? They need the support of the useful idiots like George Galloway, no sense risking that now.

[WildCat]

hmmm...but wait. didn't the Nazis treat Jewish-American POWs incredibly harshly? much more than all other American POWs?

yes. yes they did. so when they had the ability to mistreat American Jews, they surely did.
That's only because those American Jews went to Europe. Hitler didn't attack Jews in the US, so therefore he had no desire to.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Hamas started its suicide attacks against Israeli civilians in 1993, which was 17 years ago. They have an annual budget of $70 million.

and as of yet, they have killed exactly ZERO Jews outside of Israel..and they have attempted to kill or even injure exactly ZERO Jews...outside of Israel.

is this cause they don't have enough money? doubt it.

is this cause they don't have enough support outside of the Palestinians territories? doubt it.

is this cause they don't have any technical skill..outside of Palestine? doubt it.

what then...could the possible reason be?

They want to kill all the jews on their front doorstep before crossing the street to kill jews.

Why are we even answering this question?

[Thunder]

They want to kill all the jews on their front doorstep before crossing the street to kill jews.


got anything to justify that hypothesis?

got any evidence where their leadership says "once we kill all the Jews in Israel, we will kill all the Jews in Europe, and then all the Jews in North America!!!"??

[Thunder]

First they have to kill the Jews in Israel and reclaim Palestine.

so, how come they committed to stop suicide bombings in 2006?

they were getting quite a body count with that tactic.

[Thunder]

That's only because those American Jews went to Europe. Hitler didn't attack Jews in the US, so therefore he had no desire to.

i have evidence of Hamas working with Jews. Orthodox Jews.

have you any evidence of the Nazis working with Orthodox Jews? got any photos?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

i have evidence of Hamas working with Jews. Orthodox Jews.

Let me guess... the Holocaust cheerleaders of Neuteri Karta?

[WildCat]

so, how come they committed to stop suicide bombings in 2006?
They ran out of volunteers?

[Thunder]

Let me guess... the Holocaust cheerleaders of Neuteri Karta?

stupid response...#1.

[Thunder]

They ran out of volunteers?

stupid response, #2.

what, you guys gettin' bored?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

stupid response...#1.

Yes or no, Parky.

Is it Neuteri Karta that you are referring to?

[WildCat]

i have evidence of Hamas working with Jews. Orthodox Jews.
And I bet I know which sect too... :rolleyes:

have you any evidence of the Nazis working with Orthodox Jews? got any photos?
Got any evidence of Jews living freely in Gaza?

[WildCat]

stupid response, #2.
:id:

[Thunder]

Got any evidence of Jews living freely in Gaza?

responding to a question...with another question...isn't a real response. it is evading a real response. just say YES or NO.

[WildCat]

Yes or no, Parky.

Is it Neuteri Karta that you are referring to?
Of course it is. You'd think no one would be stupid enought to buy into that dog and pony show...

[Thunder]

Yes or no, Parky.

Is it Neuteri Karta that you are referring to?

yeah. are they no longer real Jews?

anyways, we know that Hamas does meet with Jews. one would think that if Hamas sought the genocide of all Jews, they would refuse to meet with even token Jews.

I am not familiar with Hitler meeting with any Jews. He too sought the genocide of all Jews on Earth.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

They ran out of volunteers?stupid response, #2.

How is that a stupid response?

Self preservation is any organisms strongest instinct and the most difficult to override. There is always going to be a limited number of people willing to off themselves in the name of <insert agenda here> in any society.

[WildCat]

responding to a question...with another question...isn't a real response. it is evading a real response. just say YES or NO.
"Working", or being used as propaganda which fools only the most gullible 1%?

[Thunder]

Self preservation is any organisms strongest instinct and the most difficult to override. There is always going to be a limited number of people willing to off themselves in the name of <insert agenda here> in any society.

so you think that Hamas simply ran out of willing Palestinian shaheeds?

got any evidence for this? or are ya just shooting in the dark?

[Thunder]

"Working", or being used as propaganda which fools only the most gullible 1%?

what evidence do you have that Hamas' semi-frequent meetings with Naturei Karta are just for show, and if they someday have the opportunity, they will slit their throats?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

yeah. are they no longer real Jews?

Far be it from me to say who is a "real" jew, especially not being one myself, but HELL YES!!!

IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION.
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust-zionism.htm

Adolf frakking Hitler was sent by God? Really?!

We've seen the the kind of diseased minds that promote Holocaust denial in the CT section (plus the handful that escaped the pen and are mucking up the history forum). However, as bad as the deniers are, one has to ask, how @#$%ed... in... the... head... do you have to get to say "Yes the Holocaust happened but the jews deserved it!"?

Neuteri Kartas view of the Holocaust is almost identical to that of these guys:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/Kilstryke/mindlesscrowdfollowers.jpg

Maybe I'm wrong... but if cheering the Holocaust doesn't nullify ones jewishness, I'm sure Skeptic will let me know.

[Thunder]

Far be it from me to say who is a "real" jew, especially not being one myself, but HELL YES!!!

um...I hate to break this to you, but it is indeed traditional Jewish belief, that since the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 135, the Jews have been in a state of "Galut" or exile. Our failure to follow God's laws is what led to the destruction of the Temple, and all other calamities that befall us are a result of our failure to follow God's will.

This is traditional Jewish belief. It is not isolated to Naturie Karta, Hassidim, or even ultra-Orthodox Jews. The Inquisition, the pogroms, the exile from Spain, and even the Holocaust, are seen as example of the Jews being out of God's divine protection...or even worse....examples of God's angel of death punishing us.

This state of exile, or lack of Godly protection, will end ONLY when the Messiah finally comes to Earth and establishes his holy Kingdom in Jerusalem, and brings back ALL Jews to Israel.

Again, traditional Jewish belief. Hard to believe huh?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Try again, Parky. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6171503.stm)

Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a Hasidic sect of a few thousand people which views Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine - as a "poison" threatening "true Jews".

Neturei Karta's views are regarded with abhorrence by most other Orthodox Jews, according to Rabbi Jeremy Rosen of the Yakar centre in London.

"And I think, frankly, even among the Hasidic world, by and large Neturei Karta are regarded as freaks," the Orthodox rabbi told the BBC News website.

They're a tiny band of whack-job extremists whom no one would have ever heard about save for their ass-kissing of a murderous tyrant who hates jews nearly as much as they do.

[Thunder]

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6171503.stm)
They're a tiny band of whack-job extremists whom no one would have ever heard about save for their ass-kissing of a murderous tyrant who hates jews nearly as much as they do.

right. if it wasn't for their meeting with Ahmedinajad, no one would have EVER heard of the Satmar Hassidim or Naturei Karta.

shows how much you know about the Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar

Now, Satmar Chassidim and Naturei Karta are not identical, but they are political and ideological allies. And they are both, anti-Zionist.

"In keeping with the Talmud's warnings that impatience for God's love and redemption can lead to grave danger, the Satmar Hasidim have often interpreted the constant wars and terrorism in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict) as fulfillment of that prophecy."

[Sword_Of_Truth]

right. if it wasn't for their meeting with Ahmedinajad, no one would have EVER heard of the Satmar Hassidim or Naturei Karta.

Their 15 minutes of infamy came almost entirely from their dancing with the devil.

Since then, no one has really cared for the opinion of the Holocaust cheerleaders.

[Thunder]

Since then, no one has really cared for the opinion of the Holocaust cheerleaders.

nice

and kinda offensive.

[Sporanox]

I can't believe I haven't spotted the term useful idiot in relation to Neturei Karta yet...

[quixotecoyote]

nice

and kinda offensive.

I assume that was the intent.

[Thunder]

accusing Jews of being Holocaust cheerleaders, is indeed pretty offensive.

[Sporanox]

accusing Jews of being Holocaust cheerleaders, is indeed pretty offensive.

Makes me wonder if you would balk at the thought of calling Pat Robertson a "Katrina cheerleader."

[quixotecoyote]

accusing Jews of being Holocaust cheerleaders, is indeed pretty offensive.

Especially when it's true. Then the offensiveness just gets smeared everywhere.

eta: Sporanox's is better.

[Thunder]

Makes me wonder if you would balk at the thought of calling Pat Robertson a "Katrina cheerleader."

sorry, calling a Jewish person a "Holocaust cheerleader"...is a pretty offensive thing to say. i would not use such an insult lightly...as it seems to have been used.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

sorry, calling a Jewish person a "Holocaust cheerleader"...is a pretty offensive thing to say. i would not use such an insult lightly...as it seems to have been used.

Which is why I generally don't do it unless they... you know... cheer the Holocaust.

Or call Hitler an angel sent by God... or something really asinine like that.

[quixotecoyote]

sorry, calling a Jewish person a "Holocaust cheerleader"...is a pretty offensive thing to say. i would not use such an insult lightly...as it seems to have been used.

Truth is, indeed, often offensive.

eta: Dammit SoT, that's the second time in a row.

[Sporanox]

Especially when it's true. Then the offensiveness just gets smeared everywhere.

eta: Sporanox's is better.

:D Not bad yourself.

[Thunder]

when has Naturei Karta "cheered" the Holocaust?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

when has Naturei Karta "cheered" the Holocaust?

Can't you frakking read?

[Thunder]

Can't you frakking read?

why don't you provide a quote, Mr. Tranquil.

[quixotecoyote]

why don't you provide a quote, mr. Tranquil.

rtft

[Thunder]

i'd like to see a quote from naturei karta, where they "cheer" the Holocaust.

[quixotecoyote]

i'd like to see a quote from naturei karta, where they "cheer" the Holocaust.

No you wouldn't, or you would've.

[Thunder]

i guess he is referring to this:

"IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH"

this is not "cheering" the Holocaust, not calling Hitler an "angel".

as I said before, it is traditional Jewish belief to view all of our great tragedies as Godly punishment for our sinful ways, or at least see God's lack of protection from these enemies as part of our state of spiritual exile.

[Sporanox]

i guess he is referring to this:

"IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH"

If you want to take the mantle of Captain Obvious, have enough decency to grab a cape.

[Sporanox]

[/I]this is not "cheering" the Holocaust, not calling Hitler an "angel".


No word on the cheerleader-themed Naturei Karta photoshoot that would seal the deal on the first contention, but I did find this on the same page:

They made an effort to pour fuel on an already burning flame. They had to incite the Angel of Death, Adolf Hitler. They took the liberty of telling the world that they represented World Jewry.

:covereyes

[Sword_Of_Truth]

No you wouldn't, or you would've.

You don't often show up in the 9/11 Conspiracy forum, Qixote. So I'm assuming you haven't met RedIbis here or are familiar with his debate style.

[Thunder]

"as I said before, it is traditional Jewish belief to view all of our great tragedies as Godly punishment for our sinful ways, or at least see God's lack of protection from these enemies as part of our state of spiritual exile."

I guess you guys are failing to grasp this.

[Sporanox]

"as I said before, it is traditional Jewish belief to view all of our great tragedies as Godly punishment for our sinful ways, or at least see God's lack of protection from these enemies as part of our state of spiritual exile."

I guess you guys are failing to grasp this.

No comment on Hitler as an angel? Not really sure the look jives with, well, being Hitler.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I guess you guys are failing to grasp this.

I already posted a response to this.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

No comment on Hitler as an angel? Not really sure the look jives with, well, being Hitler.

It does if you're cheering old Adolf on.

Ask MaGZ... he'll tell you.

[bigjelmapro]

got anything to justify that hypothesis?

got any evidence where their leadership says "once we kill all the Jews in Israel, we will kill all the Jews in Europe, and then all the Jews in North America!!!"??

Refer to my post Parky:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5583808&postcount=91

You're merely avoiding this since it negates all your false premises.

And hey, still on the same page, so can't really avoid it.

[FireGarden]

...its people here in Politics or Current Events who apperantly claim with complete seriousness "Oh, they aren't serious when they say they're going to kill us all."

Even this quote, given above,

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Doesn't mean that all the Jews will be killed. It says: "You will fight the Jews until even the stones help you kill them". It says Jews will die in this fight. It doesn't say all Jews.

Add to that the parts of the Hamas charter which talk about living in peace, and the quote from the Quran which warns not to mistreat people who neither wage war upon Muslims nor throw them out of their homes -- it seems quite clear that the ideals being put forward are ones of fighting for their right to live in peace in their homes.

Their means of fighting includes terrorism. That doesn't mean they want to kill everybody. Even terrorists can have less genocidal aims.


You know, even if Hamas decided to start attacking Israelis outside of Israel -- it wouldn't change my opinion of them. They are terrorists now. They will be terrorists if they widen their campaign.

It also won't change my mind regarding their aims: which are to destroy Israel as a state and have Islam in control of the middle east once again -- that doesn't mean genocide. Jews have lived under Islam before and, whether you think it is reasonable or not, it is reasonable for someone to suppose that Jews will do so again.

[WildCat]

It also won't change my mind regarding their aims: which are to destroy Israel as a state and have Islam in control of the middle east once again -- that doesn't mean genocide. Jews have lived under Islam before and, whether you think it is reasonable or not, it is reasonable for someone to suppose that Jews will do so again.
Have Jews ever lived under Wahabbist rule before?

[WildCat]

BTW FireGarden, do you know why Saudi Arabia has little archeological sites dating to pre-Islamic times? It's because they can't even admit there were ever any non-Islamic people living in Saudi Arabia, particularly Jews. If a pre-Islamic Jewish site is discovered it is sealed off and kept secret.

Wahabbists can't even live with dead Jews, why would Wahabbist wannabes like Hamas be any different?

[marksman]

"as I said before, it is traditional Jewish belief to view all of our great tragedies as Godly punishment for our sinful ways, or at least see God's lack of protection from these enemies as part of our state of spiritual exile."

I guess you guys are failing to grasp this.

And what you're failing to grasp is that most Jews -- even the Ultra-Orthodox -- don't consider all the agents of God's will to be angels. Angels (or messengers to be more precise) are a special breed of heavenly spirit divinely touched with specific commands. Not everyone who follows God's will are angels. In fact very few are.

Naturei Karta believes Hitler an angel because they believe that anybody who doesn't follow their brand of Judaism should be killed and will be killed by God's hand. And since Hitler was the most able killer of Jews since Emperor Hadrian, the Naturei Karta decided he was even holier than, well, pretty much anybody but the Prophets and Patriarchs.

So, yes, Naturei Karta's veneration of Hitler goes beyond even the belief among some Jews that persecution of Jews is caused by Jews' own failure to follow the Law. We know that because they call him an "angel of God."

Once again, you inadequate Jewish education appears to coincide perfectly with your ability to read things to fit your preconceptions.

And, yes, Naturei Karta are still Jews, by most Jews' definition of the term. But just as the Nazis were more than content to allow Jewish overseers (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Westerbork.html) to live as they helped the Nazis choose which other Jews should be shipped off for execution, Hamas seems content enough to allow Naturei Karta to live while they give political cover to Hamas so useful idiots can convince themselves that Hamas doesn't really mean it when they say they want to kill all the Jews.

[Thunder]

Naturei Karta believes Hitler an angel because they believe that anybody who doesn't follow their brand of Judaism should be killed and will be killed by God's hand. And since Hitler was the most able killer of Jews since Emperor Hadrian, the Naturei Karta decided he was even holier than, well, pretty much anybody but the Prophets and Patriarchs.

So, yes, Naturei Karta's veneration of Hitler goes beyond even the belief among some Jews that persecution of Jews is caused by Jews' own failure to follow the Law. We know that because they call him an "angel of God."


ever hear of the "angel of death"?

out of what hole on your body are you pulling this crap?

[bigjelmapro]

Even this quote, given above,

Doesn't mean that all the Jews will be killed. It says: "You will fight the Jews until even the stones help you kill them". It says Jews will die in this fight. It doesn't say all Jews.

Add to that the parts of the Hamas charter which talk about living in peace, and the quote from the Quran which warns not to mistreat people who neither wage war upon Muslims nor throw them out of their homes -- it seems quite clear that the ideals being put forward are ones of fighting for their right to live in peace in their homes.

Depends on how kaffirs, which includes Jews in this case, react to Islamic law once it has been established.

They either 1. Accept Islam or 2. Reject Islam 'without waging war or subverting or contriving against authority'. Which implies that if you do not go against the Islamic law when it comes to the treatment of kaffirs, from building codes, forms of religious practices, etc., you won't be punished, of which includes forced deportation, appropriation of property/funds/etc. and/or death. This is the interpretation of strict Islamic law, which applies variously to a number of countries, and the Islamic countries which strictly abide by such Islamic laws, ie Wahhabism, miraculously has a nominal number of Jews or none at all residing in those countries, of which Yemen has been added to the list with Saudi Arabia.

With the gray spots within the surrahs and hadiths, rulers of Islamic countries have the ability to further makes life horrible for kaffirs, which included some sects of Islam which are deemed impure, ie Zaydi rule.

This does, however, only apply when a country is under Islamic law. When it doesn't, there's substantially more breathing space when it comes to killing kaffirs without just means, often circumventing the often general rules of war/engagement under Islamic law. There have been a number of cases where even their prophet mohammed circumvented the rules of war/engagement that he himself set out, as during the month of which no violence is allowed by attacking an unarmed caravan.

The point here is that any Jew in Israel is fair game and has been with Hamas's terrorist attacks. The intent is still there for Jews living outside of Israel regardless if Hamas chooses not to invoke or proceed with attacks outside Israel at this point in their agenda. There's a reason that Hamas's preachers and religious scholars refer to Zionist control (ie Jewish control since Hamas doesn't distinguish between the two) of the West. Jews outside of Israel are seen as supporters and financiers of Israel, hence fair game for attacks.


Their means of fighting includes terrorism. That doesn't mean they want to kill everybody. Even terrorists can have less genocidal aims.

The gist of it is subjugation, deportation or death under strict Islamic law. There's no argument that the endgame for Islam is total hegemony, there's simply no set date. Until then there's a variety a methods towards this endgame of which the Shia Taqiyya is part of, until this endgame is reached, which includes subjugation of kaffirs until they are eventually forced to convert since in the hypothetical endgame, there would be no place where Jews can flee or be deported to. Hence the end of Judaism and other kaffir religions (and sects of Islam, which ever would prevail).

If kaffirs are deemed to be fighting against Islamic authority, ie an invading Islamic army, they are deemed to be fair game to be killed. So the intent for genocide is there.


It also won't change my mind regarding their aims: which are to destroy Israel as a state and have Islam in control of the middle east once again -- that doesn't mean genocide. Jews have lived under Islam before and, whether you think it is reasonable or not, it is reasonable for someone to suppose that Jews will do so again.
There has been a major transition within strict observers (and even moderate ones) of Islam from the time of prophet Mohammed to the Moors to the Almohads from that of ridicule and harsh treatment of kaffirs, namely Jews, to a more offensive approach of the last century, which is a repeat of the beginning of Islam in the 6th century. Unlike the time during the advent of Islam when Jews did have the capability to oppose Islamic conquest (of which the results we know quite well), the middle period Jews didn't have the capability for self-defense, hence a reversion to ridicule. Now that Israel, and namely Jews have this capability once again, a reversion to the initial approach of prophet Mohammed is once again in play. The litmus test of this would be the Arabia in the 6th century, which I hope you would admit, was genocide of Jews.

When it comes to establishing an Islamic state of Palestine, how do you think Hamas and their like-minded terrorist organizations and offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood, including Al Qaida, will achieve their short term goal of destruction of Israel? That Israel will simply subjugate? Unless you want to somehow redefine what a genocide is, genocide would be the means. So for the Bukhari quote, intent of genocide is there as seen through the usage of this by Islamists, and the killing or subjugation (hence the end of Judaism) is there. Short term goals, you might be correct in your statements, but you are missing the bigger picture.

[applecorped]

ever hear of the "angel of death"?



Yes. I hear he was an angel.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Naturei Karta believes Hitler an angel because they believe that anybody who doesn't follow their brand of Judaism should be killed and will be killed by God's hand. And since Hitler was the most able killer of Jews since Emperor Hadrian, the Naturei Karta decided he was even holier than, well, pretty much anybody but the Prophets and Patriarchs.

So, yes, Naturei Karta's veneration of Hitler goes beyond even the belief among some Jews that persecution of Jews is caused by Jews' own failure to follow the Law. We know that because they call him an "angel of God."

In support of this statement, I'm going to repost the opinion of an orthodox rabbi that I posted previously (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6171503.stm):

Neturei Karta's views are regarded with abhorrence by most other Orthodox Jews, according to Rabbi Jeremy Rosen of the Yakar centre in London.

"And I think, frankly, even among the Hasidic world, by and large Neturei Karta are regarded as freaks," the Orthodox rabbi told the BBC News website.

And unless Parky can tell us how many years he spent in rabbinical school (and no, telling us how many times you've seen "Yentl" doesn't count) I'm going to assume that Rabbi Rosen knows more than he does.

[Thunder]

And unless Parky can tell us how many years he spent in rabbinical school (and no, telling us how many times you've seen "Yentl" doesn't count) I'm going to assume that Rabbi Rosen knows more than he does.

"Rabbi Rosen" of the "Yaker Center" in London.

Funny..never heard of it. Try a Rabbi in NYC.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"Rabbi Rosen" of the "Yaker Center" in London. Funny..never heard of it.

They're a more mainstream sect, rather than the blood-thirsty extremist death cult that you've been defending here. So this is not surprising.


Try a Rabbi in NYC.

Don't need to, Rabbi Rosen is good enough.

[Thunder]

They're a more mainstream sect, rather than the blood-thirsty extremist death cult that you've been defending here. So this is not surprising. .

don't hold back....tell us what you REALLY think.

i honestly don't think you know what you're talking about.

[Sporanox]

ever hear of the "angel of death"?

out of what hole on your body are you pulling this crap?

I've tried, parky, but I still can't make heads or tails of this post. My guess is that at some point, obfuscation becomes amorphous babble.

[MaGZ]

Nope. Until you choose to read the Hamas charter, their intent remains the same, regardless of your stubbornness to accept it.

So until its revised, amended, burned to a cinder, or Hamas finds Jesus, this intent remains (as with all groups that refer or relate themselves as wings of the Muslim Brotherhood).

No one here has read the Hamas charter unless you read Arabic. What you likely have read is something a Jew or Israeli says is in the Hamas charter.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

No one here has read the Hamas charter unless you read Arabic. What you likely have read is something a Jew or Israeli says is in the Hamas charter.

No one here has read Shakespeare unless they've done so in its original Klingon.

[Thunder]

No one here has read the Hamas charter unless you read Arabic. What you likely have read is something a Jew or Israeli says is in the Hamas charter.

:D:p

[applecorped]

Are these accurate?
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."




http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

[Sword_Of_Truth]

:D:p

Going from defending the Holocaust cheerleaders to cheering the Holocaust denier Parky?

According to the Yale University Lillian Goldman Law Library (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp), the exact quote from the Hamas Charter, translated to English is:


"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

[Thunder]

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

oh...come on!!!!

you can do better than the talking tree and talking rock quote...can't you???

:p:p:p:p:p:p

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Maybe you should take that up with people who think that rocks and trees are talking to them and telling them where to find jews to kill?

I'm not the one who put that in there.

What's most telling about that quote is that it doesn't say "Israel" or "zionists", but just plain "jews".

I wonder if your Holocaust cheerleading Nueteri Karta friends are aware that pissing on the graves of their brethren isn't going to help them?

[Thunder]

I wonder if your Holocaust cheerleading Nueteri Karta friends are aware that pissing on the graves of their brethren isn't going to help them?

if you are gonna lie about them, you should at least be man enough to learn how to spell them.

and btw, I was not cheering MaGZ, but laughing AT him. just so you know.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

if you are gonna lie about them,

Evidence... now.

you should at least be man enough to learn how to spell them.

You finally caught that after 20 posts? "man enough" is a good choice of words, though.

The spelling I used is appropriate to a bunch of testicular-challenged cowards who kiss the asses of people like Hamas and Smackdude Immadinnerjacket.

and btw, I was not cheering MaGZ, but laughing AT him. just so you know.

You should have known your smily faces would have been judged in the context of your defense of Neuteri Karta in this thread.

[Thunder]

The spelling I used is appropriate to a bunch of testicular-challenged cowards who kiss the asses of people like Hamas and Smackdude Immadinnerjacket.


:confused:

really not sure what to say.

I guess I'll just let you keep saying silly things.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

:confused:

really not sure what to say.

Anything but "the jews deserved the Holocaust".

[Thunder]

Anything but "the jews deserved the Holocaust".

do NOT go there. I have many relatives who were killed by the Nazis, along with a great-aunt who survived Auschwitz and had a number tattooed to her arm.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

do NOT go there.

Wasn't intending to.

That's Nueteri "Hitler was an Angel" Kartas turf.

I have many relatives who were killed by the Nazis, along with a great-aunt who survived Auschwitz and had a number tattooed to her arm.

I am sorry for the loss and suffering inflicted on your family.

[Thunder]

That's Nueteri "Hitler was an Angel" Kartas turf.


I didn't realize "angel of death" was a complimentary term.

[WildCat]

if you are gonna lie about them, you should at least be man enough to learn how to spell them.
You, of all people, are criticizing spelling errors?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He hasn't had anything else to run on.

Still waiting for that proof that I lied about Neuteri Karta, Parky.

[Thunder]

Well, to sum up this thread, we have Hamas being led by talking trees and rocks and Holocaust-cheering Persian rug lovers.

Its been a good run.. :)

[WildCat]

Well, to sum up this thread, we have Hamas being led by talking trees and rocks and Holocaust-cheering Persian rug lovers.
:rolleyes:

[Sporanox]

I didn't realize "angel of death" was a complimentary term.

Doesn't have to be. The crux of the message is that Hitler was divinely sent by God, not Satan.

[TriskettheKid]

Doesn't have to be. The crux of the message is that Hitler was divinely sent by God, not Satan.

No, that is consistent with the view of the Afterlife in Judaism.

We have no "evil" character like Lucifer/Satan in Christianity.

We've got a "Satan," but he's more like a prosecutor than someone who's, you know, out to make you do evil or something.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Doesn't have to be. The crux of the message is that Hitler was divinely sent by God, not Satan.

Which makes it rather odd that Parky hasn't expressed a hint of anger at Neuteri Karta for thier claim that his family that was lost deserved what they got.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

No, that is consistent with the view of the Afterlife in Judaism.

We have no "evil" character like Lucifer/Satan in Christianity.

We've got a "Satan," but he's more like a prosecutor than someone who's, you know, out to make you do evil or something.

It's not the jewish view of the afterlife that's the issue here. It's Nueteri Karts claim that Hitler was a "MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH".

Wrath? Really? Just what the hell did Anne Frank do that so enraged God that he Sent Adolf Hitler to kill her?

Most mainstream religious people, jews or otherwise, are capable of coming to the conclusion that not everything that happens is automatically Gods will. Neuteri Karta on the other hand, seem to want to be recognized as the Westboro Baptists of Judaism.

[FireGarden]

Depends on how kaffirs, which includes Jews in this case, react to Islamic law once it has been established.

As has been established by history, Jews have accepted living under Islam before. Hamas expects they'd do it again.

There have been a number of cases where even their prophet mohammed circumvented the rules of war/engagement that he himself set out, as during the month of which no violence is allowed by attacking an unarmed caravan.

Are you talking about the caravan of goods stolen from Muslims who had been forced out of Mecca? That month you speak of is a pre-Islamic tradition which Mohammed had some respect for but didn't feel bound by. Why allow yourself to be robbed just because of the calender?

The gist of it is subjugation, deportation or death under strict Islamic law. There's no argument that the endgame for Islam is total hegemony, there's simply no set date. Until then there's a variety a methods towards this endgame of which the Shia Taqiyya is part of, until this endgame is reached, which includes subjugation of kaffirs until they are eventually forced to convert since in the hypothetical endgame, there would be no place where Jews can flee or be deported to. Hence the end of Judaism and other kaffir religions (and sects of Islam, which ever would prevail).

Do you have any idea how mad this sounds? For how many years did Muslims rule Jerusalem before they became the majority religion?

When it comes to establishing an Islamic state of Palestine, how do you think Hamas and their like-minded terrorist organizations and offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood, including Al Qaida, will achieve their short term goal of destruction of Israel? That Israel will simply subjugate? Unless you want to somehow redefine what a genocide is, genocide would be the means.

I think the Palestinian's plan is to wait until the settlements get so large that everyone -- even America -- admits that the two-state solution is impossible. So a one-state solution comes to be. And Muslims will out-vote the non-Muslims.

Even Hamas know they can't win on the battlefield. They aim to hang in there until the politics change. And politics will always change. A double dip recession might do it. If not... Then their will be other economic challenges, especially as China becomes more powerful.

Tick, tock... Olmert heard the clock, and even Ehud Barak has begun to talk of similar dangers:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929439.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/03/barak-apartheid-palestine-peace

[FireGarden]

BTW FireGarden, do you know why Saudi Arabia has little archeological sites dating to pre-Islamic times? It's because they can't even admit there were ever any non-Islamic people living in Saudi Arabia, particularly Jews.

Are you aware that much of the Islamic history has been destroyed?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_sites_associated_with_early_Islam

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-destruction-of-mecca-saudi-hardliners-are-wiping-out-their-own-heritage-501647.html

Almost all of the rich and multi-layered history of the holy city is gone. The Washington-based Gulf Institute estimates that 95 per cent of millennium-old buildings have been demolished in the past two decades.

Now the actual birthplace of the Prophet Mohamed is facing the bulldozers, with the connivance of Saudi religious authorities whose hardline interpretation of Islam is compelling them to wipe out their own heritage.



If a pre-Islamic Jewish site is discovered it is sealed off and kept secret. Wahabbists can't even live with dead Jews, why would Wahabbist wannabes like Hamas be any different?

The Saudi Wahabbists can't even live with dead Muslims. Kind of makes me think you've not understood the motivations at work in Saudi.


ETA: The LA Times:
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/sep/16/news/adfg-mecca16

[bigjelmapro]

As has been established by history, Jews have accepted living under Islam before. Hamas expects they'd do it again.

So you missed the gist of my entire post with the changes within the Islamic uhmmah, with the most recent influence of Sayyid Qutb of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas considers itself a wing of, to that of Islamists' views and actions pertaining to treatment of kaffirs and how the world should be governed? We aren't talking about post-Mohammed era until the end 19th century, we're talking about modern times and the teachings within Islamist madrassa and statements from Hamas officials themselves.

Yet again, how do you think Israel would be destroyed? Passively?


Are you talking about the caravan of goods stolen from Muslims who had been forced out of Mecca? That month you speak of is a pre-Islamic tradition which Mohammed had some respect for but didn't feel bound by. Why allow yourself to be robbed just because of the calender?

There's many examples of fighting during the month of Rejab. A prime example consisted during 623 AD when a group of unarmed merchants from the Quraysh tribe (to which Mohammed still belonged to) were traveling to Mecca with trading goods like raisins and animal skins. They were slaughtered, beheaded, and dismembered. These merchants were not providing logistical support or were carrying weapons bound for Mecca.

So they were robbed since these goods didn't belong to the raiding Mohammed party (since they weren't traveling from Mecca, but to it), it was during Rejab, these men were unarmed, they weren't providing support for any armies in Mecca, and Mohammed didn't abide by the rules of engagement that he made up.

There are many examples, but this is one of them. There's no room to twist into justifying this sort of attack.


Do you have any idea how mad this sounds? For how many years did Muslims rule Jerusalem before they became the majority religion?

You assume that there exists a deal of sanity when dealing with religion. As for the second question, I've already answered this and you need to re-read what I've posted previously.


I think the Palestinian's plan is to wait until the settlements get so large that everyone -- even America -- admits that the two-state solution is impossible. So a one-state solution comes to be. And Muslims will out-vote the non-Muslims.

Even Hamas know they can't win on the battlefield. They aim to hang in there until the politics change. And politics will always change. A double dip recession might do it. If not... Then their will be other economic challenges, especially as China becomes more powerful.

Tick, tock... Olmert heard the clock, and even Ehud Barak has begun to talk of similar dangers:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929439.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/03/barak-apartheid-palestine-peace
What exactly does this have to do with what your quoted from my response and the post overall? Nothing.

Stagnation in the peace process is not held up by the settlements it is merely an excuse by the PA and Hamas to continue with their pointless 'resistance' and embezzlement of aid, the majority of which, including the illegal outposts, will be pulled out of a final status agreement. Funding from the Israeli government for those in the WB has been slowly winding down so I don't see how any sort of increased expansion will be going on in the future or is presently occurring. Unless of course we're talking in about another 100 or so years? I'm not aware of any explosive growth or expansion in already existing settlement blocs at this point.

So how far are you going to excusing the methods and approaches of Hamas? Because right here I see you justifying a one-state solution as being inevitable even without actually being bedded in reality.

[bigjelmapro]

No one here has read the Hamas charter unless you read Arabic. What you likely have read is something a Jew or Israeli says is in the Hamas charter.
So you miss the 500,000+ Jews from Arabic speaking countries that were absorbed into Israel? Arabic is the 2nd official language of Israel, many Israelis, including Mizrahi Jews, speak it. Your thickness precedes you. A trend nonetheless and the prime reason why the brunt of your posts are ridiculed or ignored altogether.

[mortimer]

So you miss the 500,000+ Jews from Arabic speaking countries that were absorbed into Israel? Arabic is the 2nd official language of Israel, many Israelis, including Mizrahi Jews, speak it. Your thickness precedes you. A trend nonetheless and the prime reason why the brunt of your posts are ridiculed or ignored altogether.
I don't think he's suggesting there aren't Jews who can speak Arabic. I think he's suggesting that the Jews are lying about what the Hamas charter says.

If that is indeed the case, one must wonder why English-speaking Arabs wouldn't even attempt to correct the record.

[marksman]

ever hear of the "angel of death"?
And what about the angel of death, Parky. Are you saying it's an insult to be called the angel of death in Judaism? Because, your extensive Jewish education apparently neglected to mention that the angel of death in Judaism is Samael (well, according to some rabbinical writings), who is quite revered. Samael is also the angel who held Abraham's arm back so he wouldn't kill Isaac, an the angel who wrestled with Jacob.

You appear to be accepting some sort of Christian idea of the Angel of Death as a Charonic malevolent fallen evil angel. That's not Judaism, and I'm pretty sure the ultra-Orthodox Jews of Naturei Karta would know that even if you don't.

So calling Hitler the Angel of Death (if that's what was meant) isn't an insult at all. It would be quite an honor to be compared to Samael. (Of course, you're just assuming that was the angel to which Hitler was being compared.)

So, yes, parky, the more you claim to know about Judaism, the more clear it becomes that you're either pretending to be Jewish, or you're Jewish, but completely ignorant of your own religion.


(And the Yakar Center (http://www.yakar.org/english/default.asp) is based out of Jerusalem. Rabbi Rosen, the late spiritual leader of the center, was orignally from London, but he and his center worked from Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. He is well known -- among people who aren't ignorant of Judaism -- for his scholarship. He passed away in December 2008. Yakar Center is dedicated, in part, to encouraging understanding and tolerance amongst Jewish sects. On behalf of my Reform community I've worked with the Yakar Center to increase understanding between Reform and Orthodox Jews. Naturei Karta rebuffs all such attempts, however, because they full expect God will kill all the other Jews because they are insufficiently dedicated to God -- because they haven't joined Naturei Karta. They are a hateful group who delights in the misfortune of other Jews as evidence of God's wrath. The idolize anybody who persecutes other Jews, and assume that antisemitism is entirely the fault of Jews who are insufficiently observant -- and that would include you, I'm sure.)

[WildCat]

Are you aware that much of the Islamic history has been destroyed?

Way to dodge the question.

Have Jews ever been able to live under Wahabbist rule? And Hamas definitely has a Wahabbist philosophy, they are closely related to the Muslim Brotherhood.

[Thunder]

And what about the angel of death, Parky. Are you saying it's an insult to be called the angel of death in Judaism?

all these posts about me are doing great things for me ego.

:p

[applecorped]

all these posts about me are doing great things for me ego.

:p


assistance was not needed i that regard.

[Thunder]

assistance was not needed i that regard.


ooooooooh....good one!! keep it up folks. make the thread about me!!

I enjoy it. ;)

[FireGarden]

So you missed the gist of my entire post with the changes within the Islamic uhmmah, with the most recent influence of Sayyid Qutb of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas considers itself a wing of, to that of Islamists' views and actions pertaining to treatment of kaffirs and how the world should be governed?

Qutb was killed in 1966. He was influencial but the Muslim Brotherhood split with him. You can see the details in this pdf:
http://www.nixoncenter.org/publications/LeikenBrookeMB.pdf

So to take his writings as being some kind of manifesto for the Brotherhood is bogus. He speaks for Jihadists like this guy quoted in the above article:

“Qutb has influenced all those interested in jihad throughout the Islamic world,” said a founding member of al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya, an erstwhile jihadist group known for its vicious campaign against foreign tourists in Egypt during the 1980s. “The Brothers,” he continued sadly, “have abandoned the ideas of Sayyid Qutb.”

[...] Having lost the internal struggle for the Brotherhood, the radicals regrouped outside it, in sects that sought to topple regimes throughout the Muslim world. (Groups such as al Jihad would furnish the Egyptian core of al Qaeda.) These jihadists view the Brotherhood’s
embrace of democracy as blasphemy.

Hamas was founded in 1987, btw:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
So it seems rather difficult to link them to Qutb via the Brotherhood which disowned him.

Yet again, how do you think Israel would be destroyed? Passively?

I've already told you, but you seem to have missed it:

What exactly does this have to do with what your quoted from my response and the post overall?

It was an answer to your question: how will Israel be destroyed?

Stagnation in the peace process is not held up by the settlements it is merely an excuse by the PA and Hamas to continue with their pointless 'resistance' [...]

Err, no. This is their resistance. As I said before. The two state solution, if not already impossible, is quickly becoming so. A one-state solution is the destruction of Israel.

There's many examples of fighting during the month of Rejab. A prime example consisted during 623 AD when a group of unarmed merchants from the Quraysh tribe (to which Mohammed still belonged to) were traveling to Mecca with trading goods like raisins and animal skins. They were slaughtered, beheaded, and dismembered. These merchants were not providing logistical support or were carrying weapons bound for Mecca.

So they were robbed since these goods didn't belong to the raiding Mohammed party (since they weren't traveling from Mecca, but to it), it was during Rejab, these men were unarmed, they weren't providing support for any armies in Mecca,

You might be right on the direction of the journey. But, if a caravan is on its way back from selling stolen goods, should it be left alone?

and Mohammed didn't abide by the rules of engagement that he made up.

Not fighting in the month of Rajab is a pre-Islamic tradition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajab

So Mohammed didn't make it up.

As for the second question, I've already answered this and you need to re-read what I've posted previously.

I don't think you did answer. In any case, I'm only asking for a simple number -- won't take long to retype. So, please: For how many years did Muslims rule Jerusalem before they became the majority religion?

[FireGarden]

Way to dodge the question.

Have Jews ever been able to live under Wahabbist rule?

Wahhabists have only ever ruled in Saudi, so the answer is: no.

And Hamas definitely has a Wahabbist philosophy, they are closely related to the Muslim Brotherhood.

Because the Brotherhood is Wahhabist? I don't think so. They were funded by Wahhabi Saudis, which is why the Brotherhood are called "ingrates" in that part of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

The Muslim Brotherhood's brand of Islam and Islamic politics differs from the strict Salafi creed, Wahhabiyya, officially held by the state of Saudi Arabia. Despite this, the Brotherhood has been tolerated by the Saudi government, and maintains a presence in the country.[citation needed] Aside from tolerating the Brotherhood organization[citation needed], and according to Washington Post report, Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef has denounced the Brotherhood, saying it is guilty of "betrayal of pledges and ingratitude" and is "the source of all problems in the Islamic world."

From the pdf I linked above, regarding the Brotherhood [emphasis mine]:
http://www.nixoncenter.org/publications/LeikenBrookeMB.pdf

When we asked Muslim Brothers in the Middle East and Europe whether they considered themselves Salafists (as they are frequently identified), they usually met our question with a Clintonian response:

“That depends on what your definition of Salafist is.” If by Salafism we meant the modernist, renaissance Islam of Jamal ad-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh (turn-of-the-twentieth-century reformers who influenced Banna), then yes, they were Salafists.Yet the ubiquitous Web site www.salafipublications.com, which is run by Salafists who believe that religion should never mix with politics and that existing rulers should be supported almost unconditionally, attacks Afghani and Abduh for being “far away from the Salafi aqidah [creed].” (This is the view, for obvious reasons, of the Saudi religious establishment.)

Such “pietists,” most of whom were trained in official Saudi institutions, argue that the Brotherhood’s participation in politics has converted them into the “Bankrupt Brotherhood.”According to one,“The Muslim Brothers have political goals and strategies, which induce them to make concessions to the West. For us, the Salafists, the goal is purely religious.”

Muhammad Abduh, btw, was a Freemason! :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_%27Abduh

Under the influence of al-Afghani, Abduh joined the Freemasons ...

[...] He was exiled from Egypt in 1882 for six years, for supporting the Urabi Revolt. He had stated that every society should be allowed to choose a suitable form of government based on its history and its present circumstances.

[...] He published many articles in the Beirut paper and also helped form a secret society in Beirut which was dedicated to furthering respect and friendship between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

[...] He travelled a great deal and met with European scholars in Cambridge and Oxford. He studied French law and read a great many European and Arab works in the libraries of Vienna and Berlin. The conclusions he drew from his travels were that Muslims suffer from ignorance about their own religion and the despotism of unjust rulers.

Muhammad Abduh died on 11 July 1905. People from all around the world sent their condolences.


[...] Mohammad Abduh wanted to make Islam compatible with nineteenth-century rationalism. According to him Muslims could not simply rely on the interpretations of texts provided by medieval clerics, they needed to use reason to keep up with changing times.

[...] He said that the two greatest possessions relating to religion that man was graced with was independence of will and independence of thought and opinion. It was with the help of these tools that he could attain happiness. He believed that the growth of western civilization in Europe was based on these two principles. He thought that Europeans were roused to act after a large number of them were able to exercise their choice and to seek out facts with their minds.

Remind you of the Saudi Wahhabis? Me neither.

The influence of Abduh is towards Muslims co-operating together. Qutb, who believed he could single out Muslims as not really being Muslims, couldn't turn the Brotherhood his way. It was on that particular point that the Brotherhood split with him.

In fact, the only thing Qutb and Abduh seem to have in common is an opposition to colonialism/imperialism.

[Thunder]

The influence of Abduh is towards Muslims co-operating together. Qutb, who believed he could single out Muslims as not really being Muslims, couldn't turn the Brotherhood his way. It was on that particular point that the Brotherhood split with him.

dude, don't confuse these guys with the facts.


Islam=bad. follow that logic and all will work out for you in the end.

:)

[WildCat]

Wahhabists have only ever ruled in Saudi, so the answer is: no.
Nor will they ever.

Because the Brotherhood is Wahhabist? I don't think so. They were funded by Wahhabi Saudis, which is why the Brotherhood are called "ingrates" in that part of the world.
Ingrates for what reason? Not having similar beliefs as the Wahabbists, or for fighting against the Saudi royal family?

Muhammad Abduh, btw, was a Freemason! :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_%27Abduh

He also died 25 years before the MB was founded.

[FireGarden]

He also died 25 years before the MB was founded.

And that means he can't have been an influence?

[WildCat]

And that means he can't have been an influence?
He was an influence, but he wasn't a member of the MB and the MB doesn't share his world view.

I really doubt Abduh would look favorably on the MB.

[marksman]

all these posts about me are doing great things for me ego.
But what you quoted me saying wasn't about you. I was asking you what your position was.

Sometimes I wonder what you think you accomplish in these forums.

[Thunder]

But what you quoted me saying wasn't about you. I was asking you what your position was.

Sometimes I wonder what you think you accomplish in these forums.

irony.

and I have fun and learn new things. what are you trying to do...save the world???

:p

[marksman]

One person at a time. Why not? Have you learned anything in this thread?

[Thunder]

One person at a time. Why not? Have you learned anything in this thread?

ive learned that certain individuals at JREF have no qualms derailing threads into other unrelated subjects and attacks on other members.

[marksman]

That's it? You didn't learn anything about Naturei Karta, Jewish beliefs on the Angel of Death, the Yakar Center, or Hamas? That's too bad.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

ive learned that certain individuals at JREF have no qualms derailing threads into other unrelated subjects and attacks on other members.
if you are gonna lie

Anytime you get that evidence that I lied put together, just throw it up here and I'll look at it.

If I actually did lie, that is. And this was not just an attack on another member.

[Thunder]

That's it? You didn't learn anything about Naturei Karta, Jewish beliefs on the Angel of Death, the Yakar Center, or Hamas? That's too bad.

nothing I didn't already know.

I know that Naturei Karta are a weird bunch. I know that they went to the Holocaust-Denial conference in Tehran. I know they consider the Holocaust and other tragedies that befell the Jews to be part of God's plan.

If NOTHING happens without God's approval, then he approved of the Holocaust...right?

but yes. there is nothing new in this thread for me.

[Thunder]

Anytime you get that evidence that I lied put together, just throw it up here and I'll look at it.

you provide me a quote from Naturei Karta, where they consider the Holocaust to have been God's punishment against individual sinners, and those who survived the Holocaust were not sinners and were saved due to God's will, and I will retract my "lie" statement. cause in that case, NK would be accusing individual victims (including very young children) of being sinners deserving of Holy punishment, and that would not be cool.

for the 8th million time, it is traditional Jewish belief to consider our tragedies to be Divine Will, and that if God did not actively cause these calamities, then he surely stood back and let them happen. Its is part of our state of exile, which began with the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

this goes for ALL Orthodox Jews, be they modern, ultra, or Hassidic.

[Sporanox]

You appear to be accepting some sort of Christian idea of the Angel of Death as a Charonic malevolent fallen evil angel.

Do you know if a Christian denomination holds this definition of the "angel of death?" Mine doesn't, but I'm curious.

you provide me a quote from Naturei Karta, where they consider the Holocaust to have been God's punishment against individual sinners, and those who survived the Holocaust were not sinners and were saved due to God's will, and I will retract my "lie" statement. cause in that case, NK would be accusing individual victims (including very young children) of being sinners deserving of Holy punishment, and that would not be cool.

Ah, so it's only cool if they stick to their "God personally directed Hitler to the Holocaust" garbage. I noticed how you glossed over that little "angel" thing, by the way.


If NOTHING happens without God's approval, then he approved of the Holocaust...right?

Big difference between letting it happen and instigating it.

for the 8th million time, it is traditional Jewish belief to consider our tragedies to be Divine Will

Then why is NK so marginalized? :confused:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

you provide me a quote from Naturei Karta, where they consider the Holocaust to have been God's punishment against individual sinners, and those who survived the Holocaust were not sinners and were saved due to God's will, and I will retract my "lie" statement. cause in that case, NK would be accusing individual victims (including very young children) of being sinners deserving of Holy punishment, and that would not be cool.

Already done. Over and over and over and over again.

But you're a Holocaust Cheerleader Denier, so you'll never accept it regardless of how much evidence we provide.

for the 8th million time, it is traditional Jewish belief to consider our tragedies to be Divine Will,

Rabbi Jeremy Rosen of the Yakar center disgarees. He feels the Holocaust cheeleaders beliefs are abhorrent and that they are "a bunch of freaks".

[Thunder]

Then why is NK so marginalized? :confused:

cause they are a small group. The Satmar Chassidim, who number close to 200,000, and have similar beliefs regarding Zionism, are not marginalized.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Islam=bad. follow that logic and all will work out for you in the end.

But starting from the position "Israel = bad" and pushing it to the point where you defend Hamas and Neuteri Karta, that's ok. :rolleyes:

[Thunder]

But you're a Holocaust Cheerleader Denier, so you'll never accept it regardless of how much evidence we provide.


you need to stop with the highly offensive personal attacks.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

cause they are a small group. The Satmar Chassidim, who number close to 200,000, and have similar beliefs regarding Zionism, are not marginalized.

How many Satmar Chassidim attend Holocaust Denial conferences and kiss Hamas ass?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

you need to stop with the highly offensive personal attacks.

You need to back up your claim that I lied.

[Thunder]

"In his speech to the conference, Neturei Karta's Rabbi Cohen said there was no doubt about the Holocaust and it would be "a terrible affront to the memory of those who perished to belittle the guilt of the crime in any way"."

Holocaust cheerleaders huh? you would be sued for libel if this was a publication.

and btw, all of your very insulting and highly inappropriate personal attacks against me have been reported. you should know better than to call the nephew of Holocaust victims a "holocaust cheerleader denier".

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"In his speech to the conference, Neturei Karta's Rabbi Cohen said there was no doubt about the Holocaust and it would be "a terrible affront to the memory of those who perished to belittle the guilt of the crime in any way"."

Holocaust cheerleaders huh? you would be sued for libel if this was a publication.


Except the "guilt" he refers to is that of the jews who don't think like him.

[Thunder]

Except the "guilt" he refers to is that of the jews who don't think like him.

prove it. prove that he is referring to Zionist and secular Jews, and not the Nazis and their co-conspirators.

i expect crickets. very loud, annoying, and offensive crickets.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

prove it.

"for the 8th millionth time" (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust-zionism.htm)

[Thunder]

"for the 8th millionth time" (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust-zionism.htm)

"Grand Rabbi Teitelbaum, scion to a legacy of holy mystics and Hassidic Masters unfortunately had his prediction fulfilled. We lost more than six million of our brothers, sisters, sons and daughters in a very horrible manner. This, more than six million holy people had to experience as punishment for the Zionist stupidity. The Holocaust, he wept, was a direct result of Zionism, a punishment from G-d. IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION."


and from this, you read that the Satmars believe that the 6 million died due to their OWN sins???????????????


you should get better glasses. the Satmars are clearly saying that the 6 million INNOCENT Jews died as a result of Zionism. not that they themselves were guilty of any crime.


again. glasses. try them.

[marksman]

prove it. prove that he is referring to Zionist and secular Jews, and not the Nazis and their co-conspirators.

From the very same speech:
Our task is to accept the will of the A-lmighty and to strive to improve ourselves, removing from our behaviour the deeds that may have been the cause of our suffering.
-LINK (http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Speeches/2006Iran-ACohen.cfm)

Nowhere in the speech does Rabbi Cohen call the Nazis themselves evil. They were the chosen agents of God, which is why Hitler is considered an angel. The deaths of Jews is called evil, but the blame for that evil lies, according to Neuterei Karta, with non-obseervant Jews of the day, whose violative behavior caused the Holocaust. That's who Neuterei Karta blames for the Holocaust.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

You do realize that passage you just quoted states that the Holocaust was the jews fault for not marching to Neuteri Kartas tune, don't you?

Out here in the real world, 6 million jews died because the Nazis picked them as their scapegoats for problems that the jewish people couldn't possibly have been responsible for.

Neuteri Karta uses the Holocaust to score cheap points against thier fellow jews. It's a disgusting hate-filled temper tantrum. For them to pin the blame on the jewish people is to validate the Nazis actions.

[Thunder]

Our task is to accept the will of the A-lmighty and to strive to improve ourselves, removing from our behaviour the deeds that may have been the cause of our suffering.-LINK (http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Speeches/2006Iran-ACohen.cfm)

this is referring to Zionism. not the actions of the 6 million.


Nowhere in the speech does Rabbi Cohen call the Nazis themselves evil. They were the chosen agents of God, which is why Hitler is considered an angel. The deaths of Jews is called evil, but the blame for that evil lies, according to Neuterei Karta, with non-obseervant Jews of the day

no. they are referring to Zionism. read the damn article. they are clearly blaming Zionism and the Zionist leaders, for failing to save Jews during the Holocaust, and for making the Nazis even more angry.

clearly, they are NOT blaming the 6 million for the Holocaust....but Zionism and its leaders during the 1930s and 1940s.

[Thunder]

Neuteri Karta uses the Holocaust to score cheap points against thier fellow jews. It's a disgusting hate-filled temper tantrum. For them to pin the blame on the jewish people is to validate the Nazis actions.

glasses. glasses.

they are blaming ZIONISM and the ZIONIST leaders, for the Holocaust.

why would NK call the 6 million:

"our brothers, sisters, sons and daughters"

and

"holy people"

.....if they thought they were horrible sinners that were punished by God????

not making sense bud. no sense at all. please try to make a logical argument backed up by a rational and reasonable understanding of people's statements.

[marksman]

this is referring to Zionism. not the actions of the 6 million.
That's what you asked me to show you, Parky!!

You wrote "prove that he is referring to Zionist and secular Jews, and not the Nazis and their co-conspirators"

That's what I did. Now you're shifting goalposts. Holy moly, Parky, talking to you is like talking to a random word generator.

they are NOT blaming the 6 million for the Holocaust....
I didn't say they blamed the 6 million.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

they are blaming ZIONISM and the ZIONIST leaders, for the Holocaust.

Instead of NAZIS and NAZIISM.

why would NK call the 6 million:

"our brothers, sisters, sons and daughters"

To show how deep thier sociopathy goes.

These are some truly @#$%ed up people.

[Thunder]

You wrote "prove that he is referring to Zionist and secular Jews, and not the Nazis and their co-conspirators"


NK clearly blames Zionism for the Holocaust. it is a stupid and illogical argument. NK are not known for their logic.

they are religious fundamentalists, after all.

but they are NOT blaming secular Jews for the Holocaust. NK has had an ax to grind with Zionism since its inception, in the late 1880s.

[Thunder]

clearly, the NK are NOT....."Holocaust cheerleaders".

such an assertion is either out of total lack of knowledge, or outright deceit.

Only Sword of Truth, knows which one it is.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

clearly, the NK are NOT....."Holocaust cheerleaders".

Except for the part where they call Hitler an angel, a "messenger of divine wrath" and the Holocaust itself "Gods justice".

For those of us who are not bloodthirsty bigots and sociopaths, there was nothing "just" about the Holocaust.

[marksman]

What are you talking about? You asked me to show that NK wasn't blaming the Nazis. I did. The proper thing to do would be to concede that I satisfied your demand.

You claimed that the result you expected to your demand was loud, annoying crickets. Were you referring to yourself?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

and btw, all of your very insulting and highly inappropriate personal attacks against me have been reported. you should know better than to call the nephew of Holocaust victims a "holocaust cheerleader denier".

You need to stop attacking other people and then hiding behind your family and pointing fingers when an argument doesn't go your way.

[Thunder]

its fun arguing with two people at the same time.

:D

[marksman]

Of course, Parky's statement that NK "has a problem with Zionists" (understatement of the year), only supports the originalpoint, which is that NK should be the last Jews on the list of those Hamas wants to kill because they are allies of convenience against the Jews closest to them -- Israeli Jews.

Parky's argument that Hamas can't want to kill all Jews because they didn't kill NK, requires Parky to believe that Hamas lacks any capacity to prioritize targets. And that's a pretty remarkable assumption.

[Thunder]

You need to stop attacking other people and then hiding behind your family and pointing fingers when an argument doesn't go your way.

are you gonna take back accusing the NK of being "Holocaust cheerleaders"?

are you gonna take back accusing me of being a "Holocaust Cheerleader Denier"?

[Thunder]

Parky's argument that Hamas can't want to kill all Jews because they didn't kill NK, requires Parky to believe that Hamas lacks any capacity to prioritize targets. And that's a pretty remarkable assumption.

NK was an example of Jews that Hamas has met with, and did not try to kill.

There must be hundreds if not thousands of Hamas supporters in Britain. And yet, no Hamas attacks against the Jews of London. how can this be?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

are you gonna take back accusing the NK of being "Holocaust cheerleaders"?

When they stop cheering the Holocaust and blame it on the nazis and the nazis alone.

are you gonna take back accusing me of being a "Holocaust Cheerleader Denier"?

When you stop denying that Nueteri Karta cheers the Holocaust.

[marksman]

You need to stop attacking other people and then hiding behind your family and pointing fingers when an argument doesn't go your way.

FYI: I don't think Parky is in fact Jewish, despite his frequent claims to be Jewish. The amount of Jewish lore of which Parky continually reveals himself to be ignorant is nothing short of astounding. Most of his misstatements are commonly made by Christians who assume that Jewish lore is just like Christian lore, but ignoring anything that happened in the New Testament.

So, I have my doubts that parky is Jewish or has relatives who died in the Holocaust (well, Jewish ones anyway). Maybe he is, but he certainly hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt when he trots out his Jewish credentials.

Edited to add: Of course, if Parky didn't so often inject his alleged Jewishness into threads, there'd be no need to evaluate his claims of Jewishness in the first place.

[Thunder]

When you stop denying that Nueteri Karta cheers the Holocaust.

:confused:

right...

i wasn't aware that NK celebrates the Holocaust. do they dance the Hora on Kristalnacht? sing Happy Birthday on April 19th?

[marksman]

And yet, no Hamas attacks against the Jews of London. how can this be?

Evidence of Hamas members in London?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

FYI: I don't think Parky is in fact Jewish, despite his frequent claims to be Jewish. The amount of Jewish lore of which Parky continually reveals himself to be ignorant is nothing short of astounding. Most of his misstatements are commonly made by Christians who assume that Jewish lore is just like Christian lore, but ignoring anything that happened in the New Testament.

So, I have my doubts that parky is Jewish or has relatives who died in the Holocaust (well, Jewish ones anyway). Maybe he is, but he certainly hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt when he trots out his Jewish credentials.

Edited to add: Of course, if Parky didn't so often inject his alleged Jewishness into threads, there'd be no need to evaluate his claims of Jewishness in the first place.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There are roughly 18 million jews in the world today, most of whom live in areas with easy access to the internet. The holocaust had more than ten million victims (6 million jews, 1 million+ Romani, 200,000+ disabled person and others).

To encounter someone over the internet who claims to be both jewish and have had family who perished in the Holocaust, is not "extraordinary" to me.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Evidence of Hamas members in London?

I think they have sympathizers in the UK who send money their way.

Aside from Goerge Galloway, that is.

[Thunder]

Evidence of Hamas members in London?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7037659/Hamas-supporter-teaching-at-London-university.html

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32433_Hamas_Supporters_Scream_for_Destruction_of_I srael_-_in_London

http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=1030&pageid=44&pagename=Slices

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23614470-the-battle-of-kensington.do

[Sword_Of_Truth]

:confused:

right...

i wasn't aware that NK celebrates the Holocaust. do they dance the Hora on Kristalnacht? sing Happy Birthday on April 19th?

Good question. They've established that they HATE "zionists" so much that it's worth suffering millions of casualties worth of collateral damage just to get rid of a few of them.

If Neuteri Karta is really that buggered in the brain, why should they stop there?

[Sporanox]

Good question. They've established that they HATE "zionists" so much that it's worth suffering millions of casualties worth of collateral damage just to get rid of a few of them.

If Neuteri Karta is really that buggered in the brain, why should they stop there?

I think we all have realized that the only thing that will change Parky's view is an HD youtube video of Neuteri Karta squeezing themselves into cheerleading uniforms before attempting to resurrect Hitler.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I think we all have realized that the only thing that will change Parky's view is an HD youtube video of Neuteri Karta squeezing themselves into cheerleading uniforms before attempting to resurrect Hitler.

He'll probably find that video before we do.

And then stake his claims on the pom-poms not matching the color scheme of the pleated skirts. :p

[marksman]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7037659/Hamas-supporter-teaching-at-London-university.html

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32433_Hamas_Supporters_Scream_for_Destruction_of_I srael_-_in_London

http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=1030&pageid=44&pagename=Slices

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23614470-the-battle-of-kensington.do

None of those articles indicate Hamas members being in London. (And the third link is about Hamas supporters -- not members -- in Fort Lauderdale, which last I checked is nowhere near London.) When you Google, it's usually helpful to make sure the contents actually satisfy what was requested.

[Thunder]

None of those articles indicate Hamas members being in London. (And the third link is about Hamas supporters -- not members -- in Fort Lauderdale, which last I checked is nowhere near London.)

oh, I know Florida is no where near London. I just thought I'd just add that one in.

Hamas supporters in Florida, and yet no Hamas attacks in Miami? how can this be?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

oh, I know Florida is no where near London. I just thought I'd just add that one in.

Hamas supporters in Florida, and yet no Hamas attacks in Miami? how can this be?

1st, you've had this explained to you. Hamas is a real world terrorist group. Not a one-dimensional band of cartoon supervillains.

2nd, don't I get any thanks for sticking up for you above?