Sceptics stage homeopathy 'overdose'

[leon_heller]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8489019.stm

Here are some videos of the event at various locations:

http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php

I always get annoyed when I'm in my local Boots branch and I see all the homoeopathic 'remedies' on the shelf.

Leon

[Ivor the Engineer]

There's already a thread on this here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=165196).

However, you may have a different aspect of it you want to address than is being discussed in there, so a different thread might be worth while.

[Rolfe]

Indeed, I'm not contributing to that thread because I see it as a train wreck. We need a new one, and this is a better place for it.

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

Indeed, I'm not contributing to that thread because I see it as a train wreck. We need a new one, and this is a better place for it.


OK, I'll post this here as well then:

Homeopathy proven to work after overdosing protesters eventually fall asleep (http://newsarse.com/2010/02/01/homeopathy-proven-to-work-after-overdosing-protesters-eventually-fall-asleep/)

Homeopathic practitioners are today claiming victory for the efficacy of their remedies, after a protest by the 10:23 group who overdosed on homeopathic sleeping pills, left each participant asleep within just 36 hours of taking the remedy.


"RELATED STORIES: Boots to launch own-brand ‘Chocolate Teapot’ range"

[Andrew Wiggin]

I know what they got wrong. Since these SCAM remedies are said to get stronger as you dilute them, to OD you have to take less. Since I don't take ANY, I'm at the most risk of overdosing. Of course, since I'm simultaneously being treated with the strongest possible dose of every homeopathetic medication know to mankind, I'm the picture of health.

A

[barrymore]

"We would support the call for scientific research and evidence gathering on the efficacy of homeopathic medicines. This would help our patients and customers make informed choices about using homeopathic medicines."


You would support the call? There has been a call for this research for as long as homeopathic medicine has been out. The very least they could do is be honest and admit to selling them solely for profits (which is their prerogative). Instead, they try to play themselves off as the innocent bystander and almost relish in their ignorance of scientific research.

[rjh01]

It is up to the people who sell homeopathic medicines to do the actual research. So when is Boots going to do it?

[Ian]

Here's an update:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/21/1

[DallasDad]

Wouldn't the easiest way to overdose on a homeopathic solution be to refuse to take it?

[Soapy Sam]

Fact is, we are all addicted to homoeopathic drugs; but we're all in denial.

[The Kilted Yaksman]

Every glass of water you drink is a homeopathic solution of some sort.
Likely many sorts....

[blutoski]

Every glass of water you drink is a homeopathic solution of some sort.
Likely many sorts....

I'm not trying to defend homeopathy - it's junk science - but there is a common error within skepticism to forget that homeopathic remedies need to be potentized.

Homeopaths do not claim that remedies are created through dilution alone.

Which means that when we argue from absurdity that the oceans must be incredibly powerful homeopathic remedies, we are engaging in a strawperson.

As a skeptic, I recommend against it.

[Furcifer]

I always get annoyed when I'm in my local Boots branch and I see all the homoeopathic 'remedies' on the shelf.

Leon

I just noticed a homeopathic section at my local grocery store and was a little surprised to find it in the health products section.

I realize people are stupid enough to buy it, and ultimately the profit made from selling them helps keep prices down all over the store. But I honestly believe they should sell it where it belongs, beside the fancy bottled water.

I don't know what can be done, but I'll tell you what I did. When I saw the display I brought it to the attention of the pharmacist and and shamed him for displaying it beside traditional remedies. He kind of shrugged and said there was little he could do because it was a large chain store etc. etc. At least he knows how some people feel about it.

[HansMustermann]

I'm not trying to defend homeopathy - it's junk science - but there is a common error within skepticism to forget that homeopathic remedies need to be potentized.

Homeopaths do not claim that remedies are created through dilution alone.

Which means that when we argue from absurdity that the oceans must be incredibly powerful homeopathic remedies, we are engaging in a strawperson.

As a skeptic, I recommend against it.

Not really, if you actually read the woowoo explanations for why and how potentation works.

There is nothing magical about smacking a bottle on a horse hair pillow. The pillow and the horse hair and all aren't even catalysts there.

What is supposed to make it work is simply the energetic smack or really anything similar. That's what makes water get memory. (In their BS rationalization.) Smacking the bottle against a hard-ish pillow is one way to make that happen, but really there's nothing saying it's the only one.

There is no logical no reason why a waterfall or boat propeller or really even a water-hammer pump or even a turbine wouldn't create at least _some_ potentation. Frankly even a flush from an old style toilet should have _some_ effect. Heck, a larger raindrop hitting the pavement, or the water on the surface of a hailstone hitting the ground, or just the drops from a shower hitting the tub, should see a lot more energetic an impact than smacking a bottle on a pillow, and cause potentation, if their BS "theory" was actually correct.

And that's not even getting into stuff like, you know, remembering statistical thermodynamics. It's a gaussian distribution of mollecule speeds, and some of the collisions even in a coffee cup left on the desk will be at energies far higher than what such "potentation" can add. So basically if there was an actual phenomenon, you'd expect it to happen naturally over time in the sea or in a municipal water reservoir.

But, again, even without such advanced stuff as remembering about molecules, it should still happen naturally anyway.

[Mojo]

Not really, if you actually read the woowoo explanations for why and how potentation works.


By spallation (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2522304#post2522304)?

Unfortunately the thread those comments came from seems to have vanished.

[Ocelot]

I'm not trying to defend homeopathy - it's junk science - but there is a common error within skepticism to forget that homeopathic remedies need to be potentized.

Homeopaths do not claim that remedies are created through dilution alone.

Which means that when we argue from absurdity that the oceans must be incredibly powerful homeopathic remedies, we are engaging in a strawperson.

As a skeptic, I recommend against it.

At the same time homeopaths can't agree on what does and doesn't constitute the succussion required by potentitization or dynamization.

The blessed Hahnemann himself warned practitioner against keeping remedies in their waistcoat pockets for fear of over potentizing.

Dynamization was for Hahnemann a process of releasing an energy that he regarded as essentially immaterial and spiritual. As time went on he became more and more impressed with the power of the technique he had discovered and he issued dire warnings about the perils of dynamizing medicines too much. This might have serious or even fatal consequences, and he advised homeopaths not to carry medicines about in their waistcoat pockets lest they inadvertently make them too powerful.

http://skepdic.com/homeo.html

If I believed in homeopathy I would be very keen for there to be detailed research into what does and what doesn't constitute an effective process for releasing this energy. Not least because there's someone else designing toilet flushes and sewage treatment plant who needs this information for the sake of public health.

[Pixel42]

How do homeopaths explain why only the substance they started the dilution with is potentised, and not all the other substances the water molecules have been in contact with in the past?

[Mojo]

How do homeopaths explain why only the substance they started the dilution with is potentised, and not all the other substances the water molecules have been in contact with in the past?


Yes - they use distilled water. Distilling resets the memory, apparently.

Although you have to wonder how they found out...

[MRC_Hans]

Yes - they use distilled water. Distilling resets the memory, apparently.

Although you have to wonder how they found out...Even so, normal distilled water has ppm levels of other substances, and unless you have extremely rigorous lab procedures, the mere process of pouring water into a vial will leave perhaps a hudred ppm of various contaminants in the sample. One ppm corresponds to the homeopathic dilution of 3C, so in potentizing steps above that (which means most), the amount of contaminants is higher than that of active substance.

Hans

[Mojo]

You don't really expect them to be consistent, do you?

[blutoski]

How do homeopaths explain why only the substance they started the dilution with is potentised, and not all the other substances the water molecules have been in contact with in the past?

This probably varies, Most believe a person cannot 'accidentally' potentize a nostrum - that 'intention' is an input.

The premise is related to the magical thinking underlying The Secret.


ETA: not all dilutions are in liquid.

[Rolfe]

Yes - they use distilled water. Distilling resets the memory, apparently.

Although you have to wonder how they found out...


I tried very hard to find out what Hahnemann used.

Alcohol, I believe. :D

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

This probably varies, Most believe a person cannot 'accidentally' potentize a nostrum - that 'intention' is an input.


The prophet Hahnemann, apparently, was concerned that remedies would become overpotentised as a result of accidental shaking in transit.

[HansMustermann]

This probably varies, Most believe a person cannot 'accidentally' potentize a nostrum - that 'intention' is an input.

The premise is related to the magical thinking underlying The Secret.


ETA: not all dilutions are in liquid.

That a lot of people believe in magic based on the universe somehow sensing your intent, is pretty clear. But I'm talking about what the homeopathic pseudo-science explanations say, not on what John Doe's uninformed delusions on the topic may be.

And according to the official doctrine, yes, things can get potentized by any shake or bump, and intent doesn't even enter the equation.

I see no problem with an experiment that goes by the official doctrine, do you?

I mean, equally people believe all sorts of uninformed woo about medicine (e.g., that antibiotics are good for a flu, or that a substance can exist that cures AIDS, TBC, cancer _and_ Type 1 diabetes inside the body), but we design test procedures based on the official medical science not on what uninformed wooists believe.

[Susheel]

In India, I am not sure how safe this would be. Homeopathy tends to be a little unscrupulous here and there are instances of supposedly homeopathic remedies laced with significant amounts of non homeopathic ingredients, particularly steroids.