The pot calling the kettle black... [Archive]

ZARDOZ

1st February 2010, 02:29 PM

Usually trolls are the ones who can't address a thread's OP.

I find the deflection very telling too. ;)

Marc, if you are going to troll at least vary the methods a bit.

My name is not "Marc." I am not a "troll." In fact I don't even know who the heck you are. I find it the absolute height of hypocrisy that Jordan is revoking Jordanians' citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. Care to tell me what you think about that?

ETA

how about you PROVE that the Arab world is silent on this matter.

Lemme see. Anyone here hear about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent? I haven't heard a peep until today. Yet HWR claims it's been going on since 2004. I'd be happy to make Parky happy if anyone can find me an Arab-based link to this story which should really be rocking the Arab world.

( here's the full HRW report: http://www.hrw.org/node/87906 )

Jordanians affected by this policy have learned they had been stripped of their nationality not from any official notice, but during routine procedures such as renewing a passport or driver's license, or registering a marriage or the birth of a child at the Civil Status Department. Withdrawal of nationality appears to be as random as it is arbitrary. In four of the cases Human Rights Watch reviewed, one person's nationality was withdrawn involuntarily, while that of a sibling in identical circumstances was not.

Thunder

1st February 2010, 02:32 PM

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 02:50 PM

ZARDOZ

1st February 2010, 02:55 PM

Israel revokes the permanent residency status of thousands of Palestinians in East Jerusalem every year. I guess its just part of the neighborhood.

Plus Israel has made it illegal for Israeli citizens to bring a Palestinian spouse, to Israel.

Ok great. But we are talking about Jordan now. I can't find anything on Al Jazeera's english website. I used their search function, typed in "Jordan" and just scanned nearly 2329 results. What a boring task. Yet not a single mention about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent at Al Jazeera.

Thunder

1st February 2010, 02:56 PM

Ok great. But we are talking about Jordan now. I can't find anything on Al Jazeera's english website. I used their search function, typed in "Jordan" and just scanned nearly 2329 results. What a boring task. Yet not a single mention about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent there.

um, I recall when Kuwait kicked out a few hundred thousand Palestinians after the 1st Iraq War.

and here you go. an Islamic website that mentions the hard times of Palestinians in Kuwait:

http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/PalestineInFocus/Thepeople/articles/OUTUNRWA04.SHTML

http://www.gulfwar1991.com/Gulf%20War%20Complete/Chapter%2010,%20Palestinians%20in%20Kuwait,%20Terr or%20and%20Ethnic%20Cleansing,%20By%20Hassan%20A%2 0El-Najjar.htm

Ooooh..here is a good one!!

http://aljazeerah.info/Editorials/2006%20Editorials/September/Ibrahim%20Haroon%20A%20Palestinian%20American%20Wh o%20Died%20in%20Kuwait%20By%20Hassan%20El-Najjar.htm

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=23431&d=8&m=3&y=2003

honestly, did you do ANY research on this issue at all?

or did you hope that we at JREF, would not live up to our name, and debunk your claim?

dudalb

1st February 2010, 03:08 PM

Jesus, parky, are you that afraid that criticising a Arab government for it;s treatment of Palestinians is going to make lose your status as a Liberal?

Thunder

1st February 2010, 03:10 PM

Jesus, parky, are you that afraid that criticising a Arab government for it;s treatment of Palestinians is going to make lose your status as a Liberal?

huh? are you suggesting I believe Kuwait's treatment of their Palestinians was okee dokee? of course not.

they executed collective punishment on hundreds of thousands of people, due to the actions of a few.

I just don't like people coming to JREF, and lying about their supposed enemies. especially when a claim can be soo easily debunked. I'm no web-expert, and I found the above articles in 3 mins.

are you honestly asking me to lend a blind eye, to something I know is not true?

ZARDOZ

1st February 2010, 03:13 PM

um, I recall when Kuwait kicked out a few hundred thousand Palestinians after the 1st Iraq War.

honestly, did you do ANY research on this issue at all?

or did you hope that we at JREF, would not live up to our name, and debunk your claim?

Ok. So far you have brought up Israel and Kuwait. But this thread is about Jordan and how Jordan is revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. Seems to me they are revoking Jordanian citizenships it to make a people homeless even if they have homes and live in Jordan.

Thunder

1st February 2010, 03:16 PM

Ok. So far you have brought up Israel and Kuwait. But this thread is about Jordan and how Jordan is revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. Seems to me they are revoking Jordanian citizenships it to make a people homeless even if they have homes and live in Jordan.

i have not found any articles about Palestinians in Jordan, losing their citizenship. At least articles that were not in an Israeli or Jewish paper. oh well.

however, I have found a plethera of articles dealing with the expulsion of Palestinians from Kuwait. somehow, this was a more important issue for various Arab press. im not sure why.

but clearly, the Muslim and Arab world is not silent on the issue of fellow Arabs or Muslims mistreating Palestinians. that has been proven.

ddt

1st February 2010, 03:20 PM

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.
Do you mean you didn't look?

Kuwait Times (http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=MzMyMTQ1OTQw)
Khaleej Times (UAE) (http://www.khaleejtimes.ae/DisplayArticle08.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2010/February/middleeast_February15.xml&section=middleeast)
The National (UAE) (http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090729/FOREIGN/707289813/0/NATIONAL)
Now Lebanon (http://nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=142938)

You know what I find funny? Whenever HRW or Amnesty or other human rights groups criticize Israel, then according to the pro-Israel crowd they're irrelevant because they're biased or some such. However, when they criticize Arab nations, they're OK? :rolleyes:

ddt

1st February 2010, 03:32 PM

Lemme see. Anyone here hear about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent? I haven't heard a peep until today.
It has been discussed on JREF before: link (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4964432#post4964432).

Yet HWR claims it's been going on since 2004. I'd be happy to make Parky happy if anyone can find me an Arab-based link to this story which should really be rocking the Arab world.
I gave you four. And why should it be rocking in the Arab world? The way, say, Holland (mis)treats asylum seekers isn't frontpage news either all over Europe.

Thunder

1st February 2010, 03:34 PM

MikeMangum

1st February 2010, 03:39 PM

It has been discussed on JREF before: link (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4964432#post4964432).

I gave you four. And why should it be rocking in the Arab world? The way, say, Holland (mis)treats asylum seekers isn't frontpage news either all over Europe.

I think that's the point. When Israel "mistreats" Palestinians, it is something that whips millions of people and tens of thousands of the chattering classes into a frenzy. Similar (or even substantially worse) actions by countries others than Israel (whether against Palestinians or not) somehow doesn't provoke the same amount of frothiness about the mouths of the same people.

I think this thread is less about Jordan than it is about people who habitually attack Israel's every percieved failing as a calumny that demonstrates the unworthiness of Israel to exist.

ETA: I'm wondering if there will be academic boycotts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/dec/12/internationaleducationnews.israel) of Jordan.

The Fool

1st February 2010, 04:27 PM

Funny since most Jordanians are Palestinians.

So much for Arab solidarity.

Usually trolls are the ones who can't address a thread's OP.

Laugh out loud....

the op ends with "Well thank goodness it's really Israel's fault the Jordanians are revoking people's citizenship. After all... EVERYTHING is Israel's fault isn't it. "

and the kiddies cry when people talk about Israel. "this thread is not about Israel!!!!!" then why start by trolling for comments about israel??

anyway...the thread (as usual ) fails at the start line. The author being "speechless" that the arab world does not comment...besides the comments that DDT seems to have found fairly easily??

But lets not allow facts to get in the way of a soundly held belief eh?

Jordan doesn't appear to want these people either....so whats new?

Thunder

1st February 2010, 04:45 PM

when fellow Muslims mistreat Muslims...its not as much of a story.

when fellow Jews mistreat Jews...its not as much of a story.

when fellow Christians mistreat Christians...its not as much of a story.

this is the answer to the OP's question.

great. problem solved.

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 05:13 PM

....so whats new?

That's right. When Israel mistreats the Palestinians, we never hear the end of it, it's thread after thread with 20 pages of inflamed discussion, but when Arabs mistreat Palestinians, it's "what's new?"

Double standards much?

You got nothing more to say than "what's new"?

Thunder

1st February 2010, 05:16 PM

That's right. When Israel mistreats the Palestinians, we never hear the end of it, it's thread after thread with 20 pages of inflamed discussion, but when Arabs mistreat Palestinians, it's "what's new?"

Double standards much?

You got nothing more to say than "what's new"?

like I said, when Muslims abuse fellow Muslims, its not big news. However, if Christians or Jews abuse Muslims, its big news.

is it a double-standard? sorta.

should I care? not really. such double-standards are a fact of life. deal with it.

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 05:20 PM

I gave you four. And why should it be rocking in the Arab world? The way, say, Holland (mis)treats asylum seekers isn't frontpage news either all over Europe.

I dunno, maybe because the Palestinian "cause" is the rallying cry in the Arab world? It's the one thing that inflames passions over there, the mere mention of Palestinians can get a war started there, as long as it's Israel the culprit of course. When the injustice is caused by fellow Muslims or Arabs, not alot of anger and crying is being heard, no protests or terror threats against the Jordian regime.

It's really just about them not accepting Israel being there, it was never about the Palestinians, otherwise they'd be as upset with this Jordanian situation.

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 05:26 PM

like I said, when Muslims abuse fellow Muslims, its not big news. However, if Christians or Jews abuse Muslims, its big news.

is it a double-standard? sorta.

Glad you're honest about it. Why is it less of a problem when Muslims mistreat fellow Muslims? Why is there a double standard?

I mean, injustice is injustice, right?

should I care? not really. such double-standards are a fact of life. deal with it.Wow, such honesty again. Patently ridiculous honesty.

You sound almost as if you're proud that you have a double standard.

Thunder

1st February 2010, 05:40 PM

You sound almost as if you're proud that you have a double standard.

no. im just realistic and pragmatic. you could try it some time.

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 05:42 PM

no. im just realistic

What's realistic about it? I know there is a double-standard, I want to know why, and why you accept it?

and pragmatic. How does there being a double standard solve anything?

Injustice is still being done. You're perfectly willing to give it a pass because it's Muslims vs Muslims? Why is that? Muslims have a special free card to oppress when other Muslims are concerned?

ddt

1st February 2010, 05:43 PM

I dunno, maybe because the Palestinian "cause" is the rallying cry in the Arab world? It's the one thing that inflames passions over there, the mere mention of Palestinians can get a war started there, as long as it's Israel the culprit of course. When the injustice is caused by fellow Muslims or Arabs, not alot of anger and crying is being heard, no protests or terror threats against the Jordian regime.
Hyperbole much? The last time Arab states started a war against Israel was in 1973.

It's really just about them not accepting Israel being there, it was never about the Palestinians, otherwise they'd be as upset with this Jordanian situation.
Nonsense. You don't know yet how upset they are, the report is just out. Yes, it's about a couple of thousand Palestinians, but over a period of six years. That's a couple of people per day. Compare it to the daily deaths in traffic accidents. They don't hit the news either, but when an airliner crashes and takes 100 or 200 lives, it hits the news for days to come - though the number of deaths from airline accidents is much less than that from traffic accidents.

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 05:47 PM

Hyperbole much? The last time Arab states started a war against Israel was in 1973.

And what about the multiple intifadas, the fatwas against the West and Israel? Where have you been the last 60 years?

Nonsense. You don't know yet how upset they are, the report is just out.I won't be holding my breath.

Yes, it's about a couple of thousand Palestinians, but over a period of six years. And?

That's a couple of people per day. Compare it to the daily deaths in traffic accidents. They don't hit the news either, but when an airliner crashes and takes 100 or 200 lives, it hits the news for days to come - though the number of deaths from airline accidents is much less than that from traffic accidents.

Car accidents? WTF?

This is a policy, a racist policy of a state directed at an entire population. It's discriminatory, isn't it? Aren't you against discrimination and injustice? Or do you reserve your indignation only when Israel is concerned?

ddt

1st February 2010, 05:47 PM

I think this thread is less about Jordan than it is about people who habitually attack Israel's every percieved failing as a calumny that demonstrates the unworthiness of Israel to exist.
The OP has just, twice, emphatically stressed this thread is about Jordan. So it's not about Israel.

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 06:04 PM

It's the same thing with what happened in Sri Lanka and Gaza last year. In both cases a state went into a brief but violent military campaign against a terrorist group resulting in the death of innocent civilians. All the attention was on Israel and Gaza, there was an overwhelming international uproar of indignation and many dozens of threads were created about it that went on for days on end, but nobody mentioned Sri Lanka, even though the Sri Lanka government went on to kill 20 times more civilians in their operation.

I guess it was deemed 'OK', since it was brown people against other brown people.

Thunder

1st February 2010, 06:24 PM

I guess it was deemed 'OK', since it was brown people against other brown people.

:);):p:D:D:p;):)

good one!!!! that's a strawman I haven't seen in a while.

Thunder

1st February 2010, 06:27 PM

This is a policy, a racist policy of a state directed at an entire population. It's discriminatory, isn't it? Aren't you against discrimination and injustice?

After WW2, the Benes government in Czechoslovakia decided to deport most citizens of German descent, to Germany. Many Germans had happily supported the Nazi invasion and annexation of the Sudetenland and the rest of Czechoslovakia, but not all Sudeten Germans were guilty of such crimes against the state. Nevertheless, most were sent packing to der Fatherland.

you got a problem with that too?

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 06:27 PM

You haven't answered my questions Parky, what's realistic and pragmatic about accepting an obvious double-standard?

Thunder

1st February 2010, 06:38 PM

You haven't answered my questions Parky, what's realistic and pragmatic about accepting an obvious double-standard?

i was more acknowledging it....rather than accepting it.

i never said it was a "good thing". i simply see it for what it truly is.

Kuwait's exile of its Palestinian population had NOTHING to do with race, religion, or ethnicity. It was all....about politics.

While on the contrary, Israel's discriminatory laws against the Palestinians and Arab Israelis has everything to do with religion and ethnicity.

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 06:40 PM

And what's pragmatic about it? What does it solve anything to accept such a thing?

Thunder

1st February 2010, 06:42 PM

And what's pragmatic about it? What does it solve anything to accept such a thing?

um...calm down their cowboy. I ain't looking to solve anything. JREF is for education and entertainment, not to save the world.

Pardalis

1st February 2010, 06:44 PM

Another platitude.

quarky

1st February 2010, 06:46 PM

I wonder if a bloke could make a living, posing as a racist or anti-jew, and getting hired to attend liberal parties, wherein the passionate liberals could feign a decent rebuking, preferably in front of their girlfriend, to increase their odds of reproduction?

(hope this isn't off-topic. I'm always thinking of novel ways to make a buck in today's competitive economic landscape.)

Thunder

1st February 2010, 06:47 PM

:jaw-dropp

quarky

1st February 2010, 07:04 PM

:jaw-dropp

Aw c'mon, parky. that was pretty good.
feeling the love, mate.

quixotecoyote

1st February 2010, 07:22 PM

quarky

1st February 2010, 07:24 PM

Meh, playing villain to the suitor's hero has been a gambit for so long it's probably a cliche.

Right you probably are. I'm fairly naive.

Is this what politicians do?

The Fool

1st February 2010, 07:25 PM

That's right. When Israel mistreats the Palestinians, we never hear the end of it, it's thread after thread with 20 pages of inflamed discussion, but when Arabs mistreat Palestinians, it's "what's new?"

Double standards much?

You got nothing more to say than "what's new"?

I'll tell you what pardalis. When there is a conga line of clowns rationalising minimising or outright denying the bad practices of Jordan on this forum then, no doubt, we will get some inflamitory discussion. This action by Jordan is wrong....I think we all agree. whats left to discuss? Unless you would like me to tell you that I agree again?

The Fool

1st February 2010, 07:30 PM

dup

WildCat

1st February 2010, 07:34 PM

Hyperbole much? The last time Arab states started a war against Israel was in 1973.
Do you suppose Israel getting the bomb around that time has anything to do with that?

Skeptic

1st February 2010, 09:32 PM

Well thank goodness it's really Israel's fault the Jordanians are revoking people's citizenship. After all... EVERYTHING is Israel's fault isn't it. :rolleyes:

Why are you surprised? The Arabs kept millions in "refugee" camps for three generations now just to use as a weapon against Israel.

Skeptic

1st February 2010, 09:35 PM

I wonder if a bloke could make a living, posing as a racist or anti-jew, and getting hired to attend liberal parties, wherein the passionate liberals could feign a decent rebuking, preferably in front of their girlfriend, to increase their odds of reproduction?

I got to tell you, quarky, if you think "decent rebuking of conservative arguments" is the kind of thing that impresses women...

...on second thought, I think you inadvertently discovered the reason liberals are a minority...

Skeptic

1st February 2010, 09:36 PM

You haven't answered my questions Parky, what's realistic and pragmatic about accepting an obvious double-standard?

Depends what your goal is. If your goal is to smear and belittle Israel at every opportunity, it's a perfectly realistic and pragmatic thing to do.

Just call it "holding Israel to a higher standard".

ZARDOZ

2nd February 2010, 05:43 AM

Do you mean you didn't look?

Kuwait Times (http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=MzMyMTQ1OTQw)
Khaleej Times (UAE) (http://www.khaleejtimes.ae/DisplayArticle08.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2010/February/middleeast_February15.xml&section=middleeast)
The National (UAE) (http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090729/FOREIGN/707289813/0/NATIONAL)
Now Lebanon (http://nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=142938)

Well that's just great. Thanks ddt. Did you notice that three out of the four stories you linked were from yesterday? Yet the Jordanian government has been revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent since 2004. It's those pre-Feb 2010 stories I cannot seem to find.

You know what I find funny? Whenever HRW or Amnesty or other human rights groups criticize Israel, then according to the pro-Israel crowd they're irrelevant because they're biased or some such. However, when they criticize Arab nations, they're OK? :rolleyes:

Well that may be your experience with other people here, but I am not one of those people you've had that experience with.

It has been discussed on JREF before: link (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4964432#post4964432).

Strike two. That 13 page thread is not about the Jordanian government revoking Jordanian citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. It is about the Nakba.

I gave you four. And why should it be rocking in the Arab world? The way, say, Holland (mis)treats asylum seekers isn't frontpage news either all over Europe.

Strike three. We are not talking about "asylum seekers" in Jordan. We are talking about the Jordanian government revoking Jordanian citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. That is like Holland revoking Dutch citizenships simply because the person was of Palestinian descent.

I think this thread is less about Jordan than it is about people who habitually attack Israel's every percieved failing as a calumny that demonstrates the unworthiness of Israel to exist.

Palestinians live in real bantustans in Lebanon. I mean REAL honest to goodness bantustans. Now we have Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. I think if you add two and two you can plainly see a plan to keep a people - the Palestinians - marginalized and stateless. This plan was designed to keep pressure on Israel.

Laugh out loud....the op ends with "Well thank goodness it's really Israel's fault the Jordanians are revoking people's citizenship. After all... EVERYTHING is Israel's fault isn't it.

Well if you read the story I linked to the reason the Jordanian government gives for revoking Jordanian citizenships is:

"..to counter any Israeli plans to transfer Palestinians of the West Bank to the kingdom"

Damn those Israeli's are forcing us to revoke Jordanian citizenships! :boggled:

Yes, it's about a couple of thousand Palestinians, but over a period of six years. That's a couple of people per day. Compare it to the daily deaths in traffic accidents.

Let's not compare it to "traffic accidents." People don't compare 9-11 to "traffic accidents" because it effected "a few thousand people." Let's compare what Jordan is doing to apartheid.. and it would be exactly like England revoking British citizenships because the citizen was of Palestinian descent. Or America revoking American citizenships because the citizen was of Palestinian descent.

This action by Jordan is wrong....I think we all agree. whats left to discuss? Unless you would like me to tell you that I agree again?

I'll say to you what I said to MikeMangum. Palestinians live in real bantustans in Lebanon. I mean REAL honest-to-goodness bantustans. Jordan is revoking Jordanian citizenships because the Jordanian citizen is of Palestinian descent. I think if you add two and two you can plainly see an overall plan to keep a people - the Palestinians - marginalized and stateless. This plan was designed to keep pressure on Israel.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 05:49 AM

Ok, so both Israel and Jordan are stripping Palestinians of their citizenship rights. Both Israel and Jordan are being mean.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 05:50 AM

Just call it "holding Israel to a higher standard".

Israel is a western-style democracy. The ONLY true democracy in the Middle East. They have shared values with the United States.

I think Israel is the one who set themselves up for a double-standard to be applied..wouldn't you agree?

ZARDOZ

2nd February 2010, 07:20 AM

Ok, so both Israel and Jordan are stripping Palestinians of their citizenship rights. Both Israel and Jordan are being mean.

It's not "being mean," it's systematically revoking Jordanian citizen's nationality because they are of Palestinian origin. Combine that with the bantustans created for Palestinians in Lebanon and you can see two parts of the Arab states' Phased Plan to keep Palestinians marginalized, homeless and stateless. It's right before your eyes.

The Israeli law is that the state will not approve residence in Israel for a residents of Gaza or the West Bank. While the Jordanians are simply stripping Jordanians of their citizenship because they are of Palestinian origin. On one hand - Israel - you have citizenship denied because of origin, while in Jordan you have Jordanians who are Jordanian citizens one day, and stateless the next day.

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 08:55 AM

I'll tell you what pardalis. When there is a conga line of clowns rationalising minimising or outright denying the bad practices of Jordan on this forum then, no doubt, we will get some inflamitory discussion. This action by Jordan is wrong....I think we all agree. whats left to discuss? Unless you would like me to tell you that I agree again?

Don't try to pin your indifference on other people. It is quite clear.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 10:19 AM

It's not "being mean," it's systematically revoking Jordanian citizen's nationality because they are of Palestinian origin. .

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=167512

According to the above article in the Jerusalem Post:

"Concerned about increasing numbers of Palestinians in the country, Jordan in 2004 began revoking citizenship from Palestinians who do not have the Israeli permits that are necessary to reside in the West Bank."

and...

"Jordanian Interior Ministry spokesman Karim Naber claimed that his country did not revoke anyone's citizenship but "only suspended" giving social security numbers "pending reunification of families" in the West Bank."

"A few Palestinian Jordanians have had their citizenship reinstated, often with help from the royal court, Wilcke added, but provide no definitive figure.

"Defending the measure, Jordanian Interior Minister Nayef al-Qadi recently said the government wants Jordanians of Palestinian origin to clarify their status by renewing permits that recognize them as West Bank citizens in order to preserve their Palestinian identity."

So, Jordan isn't simply picking on Palestinians because they are Palestinians. They are selecting Palestinians who have a certain citizenship status and question of their residency. This is clearly NOT, as Zardoz suggests, a blanket persecution of all Palestinians in Jordan.

DEBUNKED

ZARDOZ

2nd February 2010, 11:01 AM

"Jordanian Interior Ministry spokesman Karim Naber claimed that his country did not revoke anyone's citizenship but "only suspended" giving social security numbers "pending reunification of families" in the West Bank."

Well that is not what the HRW report clearly says:

http://www.hrw.org/node/87906

However, since 1988, and especially over the past few years, the Jordanian government has been arbitrarily and without notice withdrawing Jordanian nationality from its citizens of Palestinian origin, making them stateless.

So far, Jordan has withdrawn its nationality from thousands of its citizens of Palestinian origin—over 2,700 between 2004 and 2008 alone. It has done so, in the individual cases Human Rights Watch identified, in an arbitrary manner and in violation of Jordan’s nationality law of 1954.

Withdrawals of Jordanian nationality have affected men and women of Palestinian origin from all walks of life. One thing they share is that their family roots are in the West Bank. Truck drivers, engineers, surgeons, businesspersons, and a UN official have all been the victims of arbitrary withdrawal of their Jordanian nationality, leaving them stateless, insecure, and with fewer rights than their (erstwhile) fellow Jordanians.

Seems "suspended" is semantic game being played by Jordanian Interior Ministry spokesman Karim Naber.

DEBUNKED

If you say so. ;)

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 11:09 AM

If you say so. ;)

well, what is clearly debunked, is the idea that the Jordanian govt. is simply targeting people due to there being Palestinians.

But this is against Palestinians with a specific citizenship situation, not your every day Palestinian. Palestinians who lived in Jordan since 1949 are not losing their citizenship.

DEBUNKED

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 11:29 AM

well, what is clearly debunked, is the idea that the Jordanian govt. is simply targeting people due to there being Palestinians.

What does "pending reunification of families"mean? Are they going to expel them altogether from Jordan to force them to reunite with their West Bank families?

It looks clearly like a way to force them out of Jordan.

But this is against Palestinians with a specific citizenship situation, not your every day Palestinian.Yes it does, as the report clearly shows, it affects Palestinians living in Jordan, depriving them of basic rights any citizen of Jordan should have.
This section is very interesting: http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/7

Palestinians who lived in Jordan since 1949 are not losing their citizenship.

Wrong again

The loss of nationality in the 11 cases described here also extends to several dozen of their family members. For example, loss of a father's nationality automatically entailed the loss of his children's nationality, regardless of whether they are minors or adults and whether they had ever lived in the West Bank, and despite the fact that they had acquired Jordanian nationality by birth. http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/5

I call that discrimination.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 11:41 AM

whatever you say, Pardalis.

:D

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 11:44 AM

whatever you say, Pardalis.

:D

It's not funny Parky.

Just read the testimonies of Palestinians living in Jordan:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/5

Some of them have been living in Jordan ever since the fifties, and now they and their children have seen their nationality revoqued.

look at this one example:
Darwish Qawasma "I was born in 1950 in Hebron. I was two months old when I came to Jordan. My father was in the Jordanian army for 25 years, and my brother, born in [East Bank] Jordan, was also in the army.
[...]
In 2007, when I renewed my wife's and my passport, I was sent to the Follow-up and Inspection Department. They wanted certification from the passport department that I have a yellow [bridge crossing] card. I got it, but the Follow-up and Inspection official tore up the certification in front of my eyes and threatened me that the national numbers of my entire family [with the exception of my Jordanian wife] would be withdrawn. In fact, this is what happened one week later after I went back to their office.
I have 11 children, all born here in Jordan. My wife is originally Jordanian, not Palestinian."
So he's been in Jordan since 1950, and his 11 children are all born and raised in Jordan, even his father and brother served in Jordan's military, but they can no longer have the benefits of other Jordanians.

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 11:58 AM

No comment Parky? Don't these testimonies show that these people have been living and working in Jordan for decades, and their children born there?

You can't hide behind platitudes and smilies.

ZARDOZ

2nd February 2010, 12:14 PM

Yes it does, as the report clearly shows, it affects Palestinians living in Jordan, depriving them of basic rights any citizen of Jordan should have. This section is very interesting: http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/7

I don't get it. The HRW report clearly goes point by point - based upon one-on-one interviews conducted in Arabic - that Jordanian citizenships are being revoked without notice. The interviewees claim their citizenships were not "suspended," but revoked.

Parky's evidence that the HRW report is debunked is a link to a statement by Jordanian Interior Ministry spokesman Karim Naber. All I have to say to Parky is Jordanian Interior Ministry spokesman Karim Naber is not going to tell the actual truth, IMHO his job is to spin the truth.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 12:19 PM

You can't hide behind platitudes and smilies.

thank you. enjoy the lobster.

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 12:21 PM

All I have to say to Parky is Jordanian Interior Ministry spokesman Karim Naber is not going to tell the actual truth, his job is to spin the truth.

No, as we all know, media spin only exists in the US and Israel, everywhere else government spokespersons tell the truth always.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 12:22 PM

All I have to say to Parky is Jordanian Interior Ministry spokesman Karim Naber is not going to tell the actual truth, his job is to spin the truth.

Right. Because ALL politicians can never be trusted. Regardless if you have any evidence suggesting the specific politician is a liar.

Remember JFK? Remember 9-11? We can't trust dem' politicians!!!

Plus this politician is an Arab, and we ALL know..you just can't trust them A-rabs.

:D

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 12:25 PM

You want to explain what "pending reunification with families" means Parky?

ZARDOZ

2nd February 2010, 12:34 PM

Plus this politician is an Arab, and we ALL know..you just can't trust them A-rabs. :D

My best friend is a Lebanese of Arab descent. My co-worker is Iranian and I am a jew. It's quite fun because we all endlessly heckle each other because of our backgrounds. Yet I trust them both and they trust me.

So I personally don't feel that "you just can't trust them A-rabs."

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 12:41 PM

So I personally don't feel that "you just can't trust them A-rabs."

so, what reason could you have for not believing this Jordanian politician?

if it is not cause he is an Arab, than what?

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 12:42 PM

You want to explain what "pending reunification with families" means Parky?

Not even gonna try? At least give us your impression of what it could mean and imply.

Please, pretty please.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 12:46 PM

Not even gonna try? At least give us your impression of what it could mean and imply.

Please, pretty please.

"Help me, help you"

:D

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 12:47 PM

He, I knew you wouldn't.

ddt

2nd February 2010, 12:47 PM

Well that's just great. Thanks ddt. Did you notice that three out of the four stories you linked were from yesterday? Yet the Jordanian government has been revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent since 2004. It's those pre-Feb 2010 stories I cannot seem to find.
Yes, and did you notice this HRW report was from the day-before-yesterday? This is the kind of stories that goes on quite unattended in the MSM.

Well that may be your experience with other people here, but I am not one of those people you've had that experience with.
Time will tell if you're also one of those people. Thus far my only experience with you as fellow-poster is that you ignore evidence others provide.

Strike two. That 13 page thread is not about the Jordanian government revoking Jordanian citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. It is about the Nakba.
In post #5 you asked:
Anyone here hear about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent?
so that settles it. I had heard of it, I had read that thread at the time it was current.

Strike three. We are not talking about "asylum seekers" in Jordan. We are talking about the Jordanian government revoking Jordanian citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. That is like Holland revoking Dutch citizenships simply because the person was of Palestinian descent.
I'm not surprised you didn't pick up on the analogy. Of course it's not perfect. But it's the same phenomenon as with the traffic accidents.

Palestinians live in real bantustans in Lebanon. I mean REAL honest to goodness bantustans. Now we have Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent. I think if you add two and two you can plainly see a plan to keep a people - the Palestinians - marginalized and stateless. This plan was designed to keep pressure on Israel.
Israels neighbour states never asked for the Palestinian refugees and they don't move an inch more than needed to accommodate them. Tell us something new. I don't see a nefarious plan to keep the Pals stateless - I "just" see that those states rather use the Pals as political pawns than treat them in a humanitarian way. Jordan was the positive exception; when it annexed the West Bank in 1950 (recognized only by the UK), it also granted Jordanian nationality to its citizens. I don't yet fully see how this puts pressure on Israel. No Israeli PM has ever lost a minute sleep over the abysmal conditions the 400,000 Palestinians in Lebanon live.

Let's not compare it to "traffic accidents." People don't compare 9-11 to "traffic accidents" because it effected "a few thousand people." Let's compare what Jordan is doing to apartheid.. and it would be exactly like England revoking British citizenships because the citizen was of Palestinian descent. Or America revoking American citizenships because the citizen was of Palestinian descent.
What has 9/11 to do with this? I compared an airplane accident with the daily traffic deaths. For instance, the crash of a Turkish airliner near Amsterdam last year caused two dozen or so deaths. It was the first item on the evening news for two weeks. The number of casualties is dwarfed by the 700 traffic deaths per year - that's 2 every day. Yet those never get to the news. Why? Because two dozen deaths at once is a big item. Likewise, a terrorist attack is news because it costs many lives. Likewise, the Israel incursion into Gaza was big news because it was a massive operation at once. The seeping process of two traffic deaths a day is not. Neither is the seeping process of a couple of Palestinian Jordanians each day having their citizenship revoked. Or that Israel changes the residency rights of a couple of Palestinians living in the West Bank or East Jerusalem each day. There isn't a single day where such processes are a big item. At most, when a HRW or Amnesty report is published about it. Yet, such processes may very well have a bigger impact on the future of the region than the whole Gaza war of last year.

(and this answers also Pardalis' remark about my analogy).

I'll say to you what I said to MikeMangum. Palestinians live in real bantustans in Lebanon. I mean REAL honest-to-goodness bantustans. Jordan is revoking Jordanian citizenships because the Jordanian citizen is of Palestinian descent. I think if you add two and two you can plainly see an overall plan to keep a people - the Palestinians - marginalized and stateless. This plan was designed to keep pressure on Israel.
You repeat yourself. Take care you don't play another album that remains stuck in the same groove.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 12:52 PM

You know folks, 3,000 Americans died on 9-11.

Therefore, we should not treat Jordan any different than Israel.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 12:53 PM

He, I knew you wouldn't.

you are illiterate? you can't do a web search?

you don't have a library? you trust everything I say?

do your own fact-finding buddy. I'm not your mother.

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 12:57 PM

I think if you add two and two you can plainly see an overall plan to keep a people - the Palestinians - marginalized and stateless. This plan was designed to keep pressure on Israel.

Actually, Zardoz hit it on the head, what "pending reunification of families" means is exactly that: According to Jordan, until Palestinians are "reunited" with their families in the West Bank, which is to say once they get their state (whatever which way, either by the two-state solution, the one-state solution, or the obliteration of Israel), they will consider and Palestinians as stateless.

But the problem is alot of those Palestinian Jordanians have made their lives in Jordan, and have established their family and home there.

So they are relinquishing the responsibility of their own Palestinians citizens back to Israel, tossing the hot potato to Israel.

applecorped

2nd February 2010, 12:57 PM

You know folks, 3,000 Americans died on 9-11.

Therefore, we should not treat Jordan any different than Israel.

Um, what?

btw - 2,669 United States casualties, 329 foreign nationals (excluding the nineteen perpetrators) also perished in the attacks.

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 12:59 PM

you are illiterate? you can't do a web search?

you don't have a library? you trust everything I say?

do your own fact-finding buddy. I'm not your mother.

I'm asking for your view on what that means, your interpretation, I certainly can not find that on Google or in the library, can I?

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 01:08 PM

I'm asking for your view on what that means, your interpretation, I certainly can not find that on Google or in the library, can I?

what do you care, what I think? this is clearly an issue of literal definition and explanation.

Pardalis

2nd February 2010, 01:08 PM

Still more evasion.

You know, we'd be done by now if you had answered the first time around.

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 01:17 PM

Still more evasion.

You know, we'd be done by now if you had answered the first time around.

I'm not gonna tell you what I think. You are just gonna have to suffer. I'm sure you'll be just fine.

:p

FireGarden

2nd February 2010, 01:31 PM

Haven't read the thread, so maybe this have been quoted:
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=258405
Maan news being
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'an_News_Agency

ZARDOZ

2nd February 2010, 01:52 PM

You repeat yourself. Take care you don't play another album that remains stuck in the same groove.

I repeat myself verbatim because semantic obfuscation is a very popular game at JREF. I've seen pages and pages wasted putting the train back on the tracks merely because a poster said something slighlty different than what they said a couple posts earlier. You should be happy that I am working to be precise. :p

Haven't read the thread, so maybe this have been quoted:
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=258405
Maan news being
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'an_News_Agency

Thanks for the link. Actually that link has not been quoted but it's just a rehash of the original news story that is making it's way across the globe since Monday Feb the 1st. What I find telling is that HRW claims Jordan has been doing this since 2004. I am curious why I cannot find anything concrete prior to a couple days ago regarding this subject. Seems it was a little-known until HRW released a report on it. My position is if HRW is good enough to shine a spotlight on Israel, then it certainly must be good enough to shine a spotlight on Jordan.

FireGarden

2nd February 2010, 02:00 PM

Thanks for the link. Actually that link has not been quoted but it's just a rehash of the original news story that is making it's way across the globe since Monday Feb the 1st. What I find telling is that HRW claims Jordan has been doing this since 2004. I am curious why I cannot find anything concrete prior to a couple days ago regarding this subject. Seems it was a little-known until HRW released a report on it. My position is if HRW is good enough to shine a spotlight on Israel, then it certainly must be good enough to shine a spotlight on Jordan.

HRW is great. Jordan is wrong in what it is doing. According to the claim itself, Jordan is doing what it is doing quietly -- people don't seem to find out they've lost their citizenship until they try to renew their passports.

So the situation is: story breaks -- some time ago, ddt linked to the Nakba thread where this subject was brought up -- story is checked by HRW watch; story gains legs.

What is the mystery?

Thunder

2nd February 2010, 02:00 PM

Still more evasion.

You know, we'd be done by now if you had answered the first time around.

You know what? you are right. I should be more mature. This is JREF, after all.

I promise to honestly and thoroughly answer your question.

......but only if you say "pretty, pretty, please".

sound fair? I think it does.

ddt

2nd February 2010, 02:23 PM

I repeat myself verbatim because semantic obfuscation is a very popular game at JREF. I've seen pages and pages wasted putting the train back on the tracks merely because a poster said something slighlty different than what they said a couple posts earlier. You should be happy that I am working to be precise. :p
I don't see how repeating a paragraph helps that. When it comes to pages and pages wasted - I only have to think of the burqa discussion (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=165777).

But enough of that - care to react to the rest of my post? I note you only reacted to one quite inconsequential remark and not to the meat of the post.

ZARDOZ

2nd February 2010, 03:03 PM

I don't see how repeating a paragraph helps that. When it comes to pages and pages wasted - I only have to think of the burqa discussion (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=165777).

The burqa discussion became what it was because other JREF posters tried to dismiss the qualifications of the head Imam of the oldest mosque in Egypt who also runs the oldest muslim university in the world. And sadly I kept having to repost his qualifications endlessly so that his qualifications remained front and center - (rather than obfuscated under the thousand different asinine dismissals of his qualifications.)

But enough of that - care to react to the rest of my post? I note you only reacted to one quite inconsequential remark and not to the meat of the post.

Actually I don't feel a need to react to the rest of your post. My purpose here is not to debate this issue.. there is nothing to debate. I just was amazed that an Arab country which I thought was progressive is still working behind the scenes to make Palestinians stateless and homeless. And I am frankly surprised that this has been going on since 2004 virtually unreported.

ddt

2nd February 2010, 03:28 PM

The burqa discussion became what it was because other JREF posters tried to dismiss the qualifications of the head Imam of the oldest mosque in Egypt who also runs the oldest muslim university in the world. And sadly I kept having to repost his qualifications endlessly so that his qualifications remained front and center - (rather than obfuscated under the thousand different asinine dismissals of his qualifications.)
Of course, that's one big lie. I dare you to quote just ONE "asinine dismissal of his qualifications". People just argued it wasn't relevant as the guy doesn't speak for all of Islam.

Actually I don't feel a need to react to the rest of your post. My purpose here is not to debate this issue.. there is nothing to debate. I just was amazed that an Arab country which I thought was progressive is still working behind the scenes to make Palestinians stateless and homeless. And I am frankly surprised that this has been going on since 2004 virtually unreported.
So why then put out the questions? Whether anyone heard of it - phrased as if it were a rhetorical question.
The claim it wasn't mentioned in the Arab world - which was easily refuted. That sounded as if you hadn't looked at all - no-one's google-fu can suck so much that you don't find the links I gave.

And then there's your incredulity it wasn't mentioned in the MSM before. You raised that question, then it behooves you to react to people who put explanations forward, e.g., to me, and to FireGarden.

ZARDOZ

3rd February 2010, 05:25 AM

Of course, that's one big lie. I dare you to quote just ONE "asinine dismissal of his qualifications". People just argued it wasn't relevant as the guy doesn't speak for all of Islam.

And that thread wasn't about "the head of Al-Azhar mosque and university speaks for all muslims." It wasn't the intent of the thread, nor was I arguing that "the head of Al-Azhar mosque and university speaks for all muslims." But that's what is became due to a strawman. Enough of the derail.

The claim it wasn't mentioned in the Arab world - which was easily refuted. That sounded as if you hadn't looked at all - no-one's google-fu can suck so much that you don't find the links I gave.

Three of the four "links you provided" were a re-print of the original story I linked initially from that same day. Crack detective work ddt. Scotland Yard is calling. Yet Jordan has been stripping Jordanians of their Jordanian citizenships - because they are of Palestinian descent - since 2004. I said:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.

I guess what I should have said so that you simply can't be blatantly argumentative is:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one until today.:p

Anyhow I've noticed you really haven't debated the issue at all, rather my participation in it. That's why I don't feel the need to react to your posts generally.

And then there's your incredulity it wasn't mentioned in the MSM before.

Once again you act like you proved something but your "proof" is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You linked to a thread about "the Nakba" in which Marc39 linked to a story about Palestinians being evicted from Jordan. This thread is about JORDANIAN CITIZENS of Palestinian descent who have has their nationality stripped from them. it is not about "the Nakba" or "evictions of Palestinians from Jordan." I just want to be clear about that. :)

applecorped

3rd February 2010, 08:17 AM

I should be more mature.

But.........

ddt

3rd February 2010, 11:42 AM

And that thread wasn't about "the head of Al-Azhar mosque and university speaks for all muslims." It wasn't the intent of the thread, nor was I arguing that "the head of Al-Azhar mosque and university speaks for all muslims." But that's what is became due to a strawman. Enough of the derail.
I see. So there were no "asinine dismissals" in that thread - otherwise, you could have linked to one.

Three of the four "links you provided" were a re-print of the original story I linked initially from that same day. Crack detective work ddt. Scotland Yard is calling. Yet Jordan has been stripping Jordanians of their Jordanian citizenships - because they are of Palestinian descent - since 2004. I said:
Need help with those goalposts? It was reported in the Arab press. You claimed it wasn't. You just didn't look.

I guess what I should have said so that you simply can't be blatantly argumentative is:
Ex post facto attempt at justification. And your silence as to both my explanation why this issue hasn't widely hit the press, as well as FireGarden's, is, methinks, telling.

Anyhow I've noticed you really haven't debated the issue at all, rather my participation in it. That's why I don't feel the need to react to your posts generally.
Cheap cop-out. I have given my opinion on the matter. Just read my posts a bit more carefully.

Once again you act like you proved something but your "proof" is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You linked to a thread about "the Nakba" in which Marc39 linked to a story about Palestinians being evicted from Jordan. This thread is about JORDANIAN CITIZENS of Palestinian descent who have has their nationality stripped from them. it is not about "the Nakba" or "evictions of Palestinians from Jordan." I just want to be clear about that. :)
Ever heard of thread derail? Marc39 linked to the story and it was discussed in that thread. And that discussion reveals that it is the same story. Look at post #471 from FireGarden (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4965137#post4965137):
Jordan is evicting Palestiniains. Israel can do so, too...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1246443863400

Your own source says:

Several Jordanian government officials, they said, are convinced that Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman are secretly working toward turning Jordan into a Palestinian state.

As a preemptive measure, the Jordanian authorities recently began revoking the citizenship of thousands of Palestinians, leaving many of them in a state of panic and uncertainty regarding the future.

The Jordanians have justified the latest measure by arguing that it's aimed at avoiding a situation in which the Palestinians would ever be prevented from returning to their original homes inside Israel.

<snip>

So, again you fail for lack of reading links other people provide. Oh, and here is a link to the JPost (http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1246443863400) (the link Marc39 gave seems to not work anymore).

ZARDOZ

3rd February 2010, 12:19 PM

Need help with those goalposts? It was reported in the Arab press. You claimed it wasn't. You just didn't look.

Three out of the four links you provided in this thread were reprints of the story I provided. So you didn't do anything relevant or important. The "holy grail" link Marc39 provided in that Nakba thread was AN ISRAELI NEWSPAPER - which IS NOT "in the Arab press."

Frankly I am done with your need to make yourself seem relevant.

Have a nice day ddt.

FireGarden

3rd February 2010, 01:43 PM

The HRW report cites the Arab press:
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/3

On July 3, 2009, journalist Bassam Badarin wrote in Al-Quds Al-Arabi that Minister of Interior Nayif al-Qadi considered allegations of arbitrary withdrawals of nationality part of "an Israeli conspiracy."

and, citing Khetam Malkawi, "House Panel Backs Ministry Procedures on 'Citizenship Revocation,'" Jordan Times, July 17, 2009:

The Jordan Times quoted unnamed "Interior officials" as defending withdrawal of nationality of Jordanians of Palestinian origin as a means to "counter Israeli policies to 'empty the Palestinian lands from their legitimate residents.'"

The JPost article is dated 20th July, so it doesn't seem to be the first mention of the story, though it does seem to be the most quoted on the net.

Of course, now that HRW have investigated and published their report, the story is in many more places.

ddt

3rd February 2010, 02:08 PM

Three out of the four links you provided in this thread were reprints of the story I provided. So you didn't do anything relevant or important.
You claimed the Arab world was silent. From your OP:
I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.
The fact that my links were "reprints" of the story you provided doesn't say anything. Probably they're all verbatim reprints of a press agency story. That's very common. All I expect from you is to acknowledge your claim in the OP was factually incorrect. And well, see FireGarden's latest post for more evidence to the contrary of your claim in the OP.

The "holy grail" link Marc39 provided in that Nakba thread was AN ISRAELI NEWSPAPER - which IS NOT "in the Arab press."
So what? That wasn't the point of that link. But we've already seen that reading comprehension isn't your forte. From your post #5:
Anyone here hear about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent?
So you've got an answer. FireGarden knew about it. I knew about it. A couple more people, who engaged in that thread, knew about it. Now care to acknowledge that?

Frankly I am done with your need to make yourself seem relevant.
This puts the thread title in a different perspective.

ZARDOZ

3rd February 2010, 02:26 PM

The HRW report cites the Arab press:
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/3
and, citing Khetam Malkawi, "House Panel Backs Ministry Procedures on 'Citizenship Revocation,'" Jordan Times, July 17, 2009:

The JPost article is dated 20th July, so it doesn't seem to be the first mention of the story, though it does seem to be the most quoted on the net.

Of course, now that HRW have investigated and published their report, the story is in many more places.

Thanks Firegarden. :) It's funny but anything Israeli looks at a Palestinian the wrong way and it's big news. Jordan has been stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent since 2006-ish and there's hardly been a blip on the radar. That was the intent of my comment when I said:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.

I was not maligning the Arab press when I said that, or equivocally laying down a written-in-stone claim that the Arab press never said anything ever in recorded history.

I made an innocent comment that considering the seriousness of stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent for the past few years one would think it would get more press in the Arab world. That's all. Frankly ddt's semantic games on this point are useless, derailing and argumentative.

You claimed the Arab world was silent. From your OP:

Dude. You have a real issue with your self importance. How about you lighten up a bit and realize that when I said:

I'm speechless at the silence in the Arab world on this one.

...that in no way is that a claim that NOTHING was ever said ever in recorded history. Rather I was amazed that Arab countries and pro-Palestinian supporters don't seem to be at the UN protesting.. or marching in European cities.. or boycotting Jordanian products.. (like they do for Israel) ..considering that Jordan is stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent.

Have a nice day.

FireGarden

4th February 2010, 03:33 AM

Thanks Firegarden. :)

You're welcome.

It's funny but anything Israeli looks at a Palestinian the wrong way and it's big news. Jordan has been stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent since 2006-ish and there's hardly been a blip on the radar.

Judging by this forum, one of the reasons Israel is bigger news is because it attracts more defence. This itself creates more interest. Other than from Jordanian officials, I have seen no defence of Jordan's actions.

As for the timing of the response...
As I said before, Jordan was doing this in secret. It wasn't even telling people that their citizenship had been revoked. They found out when trying to renew documents -- possibly years after they lost citizenship. I imagine that some of these people went to lawyers and then to journalists with their problems. As more of these stories emerged, the pattern became clear and the story broke. HRW investigated, published their report and the story has become bigger news. I really don't find this surprising.

I was not maligning the Arab press when I said that, or equivocally laying down a written-in-stone claim that the Arab press never said anything ever in recorded history.

I'm sorry that you're upset at the quality of responses you've received. Some of this may be down to our misunderstanding you. Some of it may be down to the terse method of responding to direct questions. Such as:

Lemme see. Anyone here hear about Jordan revoking Jordanian's citizenship because they are of Palestinian descent? I haven't heard a peep until today.

ddt gave you a clear answer to that: Yes, we had heard of this before -- last year, as evidenced by the thread he linked.

I'd be happy to make Parky happy if anyone can find me an Arab-based link to this story which should really be rocking the Arab world.

And again, links were provided.
These were from after the HRW report, and you then wanted some from before. It turns out that HRW itself cited such reports.

I made an innocent comment that considering the seriousness of stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent for the past few years one would think it would get more press in the Arab world. That's all. Frankly ddt's semantic games on this point are useless, derailing and argumentative.

I happen to be a fan of ddt. (The poster!)
And I don't think your comment was innocent. It was very loaded, right from the OP when you refered to Israel. You may not have intended to load it that way, but that is the way you came across.

ZARDOZ

4th February 2010, 07:08 AM

Marc, you are becoming increasingly frustrated as your fabrications and factual errors are exposed...leading to the usual ad-homs. Under one of your new names would it be possible for you to try a new approach?

Once again I'm not Marc. But since this your second post - off topic - about Marc, I think you have a serious crush on Marc. :D

Judging by this forum, one of the reasons Israel is bigger news is because it attracts more defence. This itself creates more interest.

The funny part is Israel puts a hebrew date on a citizenship ID and you get a 13 plus page JREF opus on all the evils of Israel. ;) While Jordan is secretly stripping Jordanian citizens of their nationality because they are of Palestinian descent and you get a 3 page derail about I didn't say something exacting enough for ddt, or that I'm someone named Marc. :D

Other than from Jordanian officials, I have seen no defence of Jordan's actions.

And I have never said anyone did defend it.

I'm sorry that you're upset at the quality of responses you've received. Some of this may be down to our misunderstanding you. Some of it may be down to the terse method of responding to direct questions. Such as:

ddt gave you a clear answer to that: Yes, we had heard of this before -- last year, as evidenced by the thread he linked.

It may come as a shock to some of you but I had never read that link before because I wasn't a member of JREF. But what I do find odd is that ddt is more focused in rubbing that thread in my face rather than discussing the topic, which is Jordan stripping Jordanian citizens of their nationality. ;)

I happen to be a fan of ddt. (The poster!)
And I don't think your comment was innocent. It was very loaded, right from the OP when you refered to Israel. You may not have intended to load it that way, but that is the way you came across.

I referred to Israel because in the original link I based the op on.. the Jordanian government blamed Israel for Jordan stripping Jordanian citizens of their nationality.

Jordan, where a significant proportion of the nearly six million inhabitants are of Palestinian origin, has said the measure was a means to counter any Israeli plans to transfer Palestinians of the West Bank to the kingdom, according to HRW.

So my sarcasm when I innocently typed:

Well thank goodness it's really Israel's fault the Jordanians are revoking people's citizenship. After all... EVERYTHING is Israel's fault isn't it. :rolleyes:

...was right on the nose. It wasn't out of line, or off topic, since according to the HRW Jordan is attempting to blame Israel for what they are doing. Which is obviously ridiculous. And it disappoints me because I always looked up to Jordan as a leader in that part of the world when it came to the rights of Palestinians and peace towards Israel. Yet they are still working on the Phased Plan to keep a people stateless even if they are originally Jordanians!

Sporanox

4th February 2010, 10:47 AM

It may come as a shock to some of you but I had never read that link before because I wasn't a member of JREF. But what I do find odd is that ddt is more focused in rubbing that thread in my face rather than discussing the topic

Well, not that I'm a big Israel antagonist or anything, but the 13 pages on the Hebrew date are because we have some passionate Israel defenders here. Now, there are no Jordanian defenders.

Bottom line, everyone agrees that the behavior stated in the OP is reprehensible. That's the whole point of this thread, isn't it? I mean, what else is there to discuss?

Thunder

4th February 2010, 12:09 PM

Now....back to Jordan and their silly little Palestinians.

Locknar

4th February 2010, 05:18 PM

Ok folks...lets stick to the topic and stop the bickering; off-topic posts have been moved to AAH or Forum Management.

ETA: ZARDOZ is not a sockpuppet (see: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=166568)

ZARDOZ

5th February 2010, 05:12 AM

ETA: ZARDOZ is not a sockpuppet (see: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=166568) [/mod]

Thank you. The Fool and Parky will be happy to know that.

Back to the topic.

http://www.jordanembassyus.org/new/newsarchive/2009/12012009001.htm

His Majesty King Abdullah on Monday said Jordan would continue to extend all types of support to the Palestinians and use all means to highlight their suffering and empower them to establish their independent state.

Yet.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=36958

Jordan has revoked citizenship from nearly 3,000 Jordanians of Palestinian origin in recent years and should put a stop to the practice, Human Rights Watch (HRW) said in a report released Monday. HRW said 2,732 Palestinians were stripped of their Jordanian nationality between 2004 and 2008.

I'm confused.

I'd love to ask King Abdullah how stripping the citizenship of Jordanians-of-Palestinian-descent highlights Palestinian suffering and empowers them. :rolleyes: