Teacher has affair with student

[Checkmite]

I'll admit...when I was considerably younger, I felt almost sleighted that all the female teachers that fooled around with kids all happened to live on the other side of the country, to tell from the news reports. Now that I'm older, I understand the concepts involved, such as abuse of trust and the responsibilities of authority, and no longer feel slighted. Such incidents continue, however, and just lately they've hit home...a couple of times.

The most recent case in my town involves Robert Sanchez, a Navy JROTC instructor at Lorain Admiral King High School. Last year, complaints were made that Sanchez had fondled one of his female students while "adjusting a ribbon on her uniform". Sanchez was placed on suspension and a police investigation ensued, which found nothing. The City Schools kept him home anyway, while they conducted their own investigation.

Sanchez was suspended in late October of last year. By this January, the schools investigation had uncovered suggestions of an affair with a particular student, but had found nothing incriminating, and grudgingly allowed him back to work...but not before making two things very clear. The first was that this would be his last year teaching. The second was that Sanchez was never to be alone with a student - on or off campus - or he would be fired. Sanchez agreed and returned to work on January 5th.

At night this past Saturday - January 10th - a private investigator informed the nearby Elyria City Police that Sanchez was alone in a motel room with the student he was suspected of having an affair with. When police entered, there was beer on the table, and the student (now 18) was found hiding in the bathroom, behind the door...with her brazziere hanging from the door hook. The superintendent arrived (having also been called by the investigator), and promptly informed Sanchez that his teaching services were no longer required. He was charged by the police of providing an underage person with alcohol, and released.

The next night, Sanchez walked into the woods behind his home and died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chest. He left a longish suicide note, the contents of which have not been released, and a lot of his students are seriously shaken. You know the deal...grief counsellors and all that at the school now.

It's almost funny...Sunday morning this case was about a creep who fooled around with one of his students. Today it's about a "tragic end" to a misunderstood and confused man.

Ever since I was young, I've never had much sympathy for suicides. I always insisted that suicide was a cowardly and selfish way out. Although I never said as much about any specific person, I'd made my feelings known on a couple of occasions when my peers and I discussed the issue. I soon learned that my opinion was unpopular and even irritating to some people, and after getting b*tched at enough about it, I decided never to discuss it. Now as I'm older my opinions have tended to change...but in this case, with this guy, I haven't much sympathy, because of what he did...not that having an affair with a student makes him an inhuman monster or anything, but because this person decided that he didn't want to live with the consequences of his actions. But I digress.

The student in this case was an adult, so this is not a child abuse case on the same level as, say, middle school teachers who do the same thing. No, Sanchez was not an inhuman monster. He didn't rape or murder anyone. However, he was a creep, and this case is not about age. He took advantage of someone he was charged to support and protect, violated the trust that his superiors and the parents of his students had placed in him, and chances are he would've been out of the Navy, very soon. I am thorougly disappointed in this person, but not as much as I will be disappointed in the inevitable claims (which will be made soon) that the police or the school "hounded" him to his death.

You can read the story from my town's newspaper website here. (http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10796150&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=6)

[Phil]

The final scene of this play does not concern me in the least. He couldn't take it. He ended it, and though I feel a bad one, that's his choice. But I have a lot of questions concerning the events leading up to the suicide.

Do we know who hired the PI?

Why the hell was a school official allowed to accompany police into the hotel room? Wasn't it just a suspected "providing a minor with alcohol" case at that point? Besides, the girl was 18. Isn't that two consenting adults nowhere near the school? Sounds almost like a set up.

Since when is it okay for any employer to regulate a person's life outside of work? Did Sanchez complain about this? Hire a lawyer?

I won't say that Sanchez was driven to suicide. That's a personal choice. But I have some major issues with those that will be blamed for driving him to it.

[Doubt]

In most places in the US, it is professional misconduct for any educator to have sexual relations with their students. Primarily this is the case because of the authority of the educator places the student in a bad situation. It does not matter that the girl was 18. A college professor would have similar problems if they were getting it on with a 22-year-old university student who was in one of their classes.

I also don’t have much sympathy for suicides unless the person is mentally ill. It is a coward’s way out of problems that dumps a load of sh*t on those left behind. Also feeling sorry for the people who do this gives incentive to attention seekers to try this sort of destructive behavior.

[Phil]

Originally posted by Doubt
In most places in the US, it is professional misconduct for any educator to have sexual relations with their students. Primarily this is the case because of the authority of the educator places the student in a bad situation. It does not matter that the girl was 18. A college professor would have similar problems if they were getting it on with a 22-year-old university student who was in one of their classes. . .

I understand and agree with this as stated, but Sanchez was told he could not be "alone" with a student at school or outside of school or he would be fired. They didn't tell him that if they discovered he was having romantic relations, whether at school or away from school, that he would be let go.

Now, I don't doubt that there was something going on before this girl turned 18, but that's kind of beside the point, because they apparently found no strong evidence to flesh that out. Does an employer have the right to give this kind of ultimatum for the action stipulated?

[The idea]

The part that you quoted doesn't include this info:

Sanchez's wife, Paula, [...]

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Phil


Why the hell was a school official allowed to accompany police into the hotel room? Wasn't it just a suspected "providing a minor with alcohol" case at that point? Besides, the girl was 18. Isn't that two consenting adults nowhere near the school? Sounds almost like a set up.


First, a correction...I was in error when I said it was the school superintendent who entered the room with police. It was actually Glen Waggoner, the attorney for the schools, who was involved in the ongoing investigation being conducted by the schools.

And yes, I neglected to mention that Sanchez was married.'

If Sanchez, who was married, was having a sexual relationship with a student, then that would've been a violation of the UCMJ's cohabitation article (being that Sanchez is in the Navy after all). In addition, many employers have guidelines that restrict sub-management relationships with management for example, even outside of work. While it may not be enough to justify firing an employee in most instances, teacher/student relationships are a different bag. There are ethical considerations of the same sort that would accompany exposed doctor/patient and attorney/client sexual relationships. These occupations have ethics review panels that are capable of terminating employment for such reasons, and professionals who choose those occupations are very aware of the consequences they may face.

[Cleopatra]

Can we discuss this matter in details because it interests me very much? :)

Since last year, I am responsible for the classes of " Court Simulation" at the Law School ( don't imagine anything fancy, I am not a professor or anything I just work on cases with students they are to their fourth year of the studies so as they practice on the court procedures) and I keep an office at the University. Since the day a student attempted to flirt me I got so scarred that I leave the door of my office open when I am in.*

I might be wrong but the profession of teaching is as much sacred as the profession of providing medical care. Being a lawyer is something really different because our clients might depend on us but we don't really have the power to influence dramatically either their well being or the development of their personality.

Maybe it will sound hyperbolic but I believe that if a lawyer is involved with a client he is the one who is " in danger".

But a teacher? I understand that we are all humans but feeling lust for a student--not to say to demonstrate it and be sexually involved--destroys the educational procedure for good. I'd say that it can kill your ability to teach either.

A good teacher must not be only knowledgable but empathic as well. He must be able to know how to "transfuse" his knowledge in two levels: collectively ( to the class) and individually( to each student). By the moment a teacher is involved with his students ( personally I do not believe that this happens only once in a teacher's life. If he is in the habit of getting involved with students he will keep doing it during his career) he loses empathy. Sex blocks everything and above all clear judgment.

Also, even as a love experience is not for the benefit of the student. The status of " teacher versus student" will be present in the relationship and it gives the younger person a rather twisted idea of what relationships are or they should be.

And one last point. When I was at the university they were rumours about students that were hitting on their professors in order to improve their chances regarding their professional future. I don't know what students in other faculties do but be a trainee in the Law firm of a University professor is something really big. I always considered those professors who rewarded their students/lovers with providing them such benefits as cowards. At least, people who pay to have sex are decent.

What do you think?

* To be honest I didn't got scared that I might have being accused of anything but the particular student is funny and very intelligent and I felt the need to reply to his witty/flirtatious remarks. BUT the moment the answer got to my lips I said to myself that I must have lost it for wanting to reply to the compliments of a 22 years old boy and I confess that this influenced my behavior to the students still. I rarely smile and I rarely joke with them anymore.

edited to add: I have just observed that I called the 22 years old student a boy... I think that this says a lot about the way I see the subject. To me a student will always be a child.

[Badger]

The engineering profession seems to have more lax standards regarding client relations**. I would expect that due to the nature of our work as being more technical than emotional, (like with a lawyer or doctor), and so emotional attachments are less likely.

However, the teacher/student and mentoring relationships are the same as described above.

**Our normally nerdy nature and odd smell tend to put a natural limitation on deeper relationships of this sort anyway.;) (or maybe it's just me)

[El Greco]

Ah, who can stop love... or, as Sophocles put it...

<font face="symbol">erwV anikate macan</font> ("Love, thou art victor in fight")

Male professors not yet 40 years old... female students often above 25... who could stop them ? Nothing can be done if they are both adults. Judging from what I've seen, if professor - student intimacies were deemed illegal, education in the Greek universities would come to a halt :D

I know this girl who's been stalking professors all her life. As a medical school student she had an affair with a professor, then the dean. When she went to work at a hospital to become a cardiologist, she seduced the head of the cardiology department (whoa, I'd never guess it). Then she changed hospital, she dumped the previous lover and started an affair with the director of the cardiology department in her new hospital. Now she's about to change hospital again, so her relationship with the director is not going very well... Who can blame the poor professors ;)

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
*Sniiiip*

edited to add: I have just observed that I called the 22 years old student a boy... I think that this says a lot about the way I see the subject. To me a student will always be a child. Mmmm, isn't that the core of the problem (provided there IS a problem)? We tend to see the teacher/student relationship as an adult/child relationship. When both are adults, I think this is an archaic way of looking at things; the student may be wiser, more mature, and even older than the teacher, the teacher may just have some specialized knowledge.

In my country, the legal part of teacher/student sexual relations stop at the age of consent, unless a special custody situation exists, but it is generally considered bad taste for teathers to have affairs with students at high-school level and below (here, age of consent is 15).

Hans

[Eos of the Eons]

He was married too. Ugh. The guy was an @ss. If that is how he deals with consequences of his own actions, then I can't feel sorry for him.

Iteresting comments on the teacher/student scenarios.

[kittynh]

well, but when I was in school (and college) there was a LOT of pressure for my good friend Linda (a Barbie look alike) to sleep with her teachers. It always started out with them asking to talk with her about her grades (she worked hard to get a C). They would offer to take her to dinner, and "talk things over". She tried to keep it professional, but the first few times she really fell for that wanting to help her with her grade thing. Usually a visit by her brother or dad to the professor would clear things up. I also worked at the school paper and once borrowed one of our mini tape recorders for her. At this time there were no rules about dating students, but there were rules about dating influencing grading. She finally dropped college, and became a successful business owner - once she had taken the business classes she felt she needed. This also happened to a gay friend of mine, male teachers wanting to "help his grades".

The sad part is that a teacher taking a special interest in you is flattering. If you are 18, and just starting out on your own, you can be easily manipulated. Me, I found taking a course in high school called , "How to say no to a rapist" was full of wonderful insights on how to deal with teachers who came on to me. the sad part is how the teachers would look over their class of students to find the good looking ones, the not so bright ones, and the ones without strong family connections.

[chillzero]

Let me play Devil's advocate a moment.

You say the man is a creep - I think that it your opinion, and not a fact.
You say he could not live with the consequences of his actions, and that he is a coward - now, imagine this:
-he has already been cleared of one allegation against him, and that allegation is shaky at best - to fondle someone while pinning on a ribbon could easily have been a mistaken contact, or a misiniterpretation by onlookers (or even the recipient of the ribbon)
-he is allowed back to his profession, but under strict rules as if he was actually found guilty of the charge which has been dropped.
-an 18 year old is not necessarily a child, or inexperienced sexually, and this could have been a legitimate relationship.
-he may be married - I find that irrelevant to this issue without further knowledge of the nature of the marriage and the personalities of this man and his wife - what if they have an open marriage?
-none of the students nor his wife were inclined to implicate him in any way

Now, bearing in mind the way his previous case had been handled, can you maybe consider that a man perhaps felt he was being unfairly persecuted, by one individual in particular, and would never be allowed a relatively normal life, given that his career was dismissed without any kind of hearing?

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by cabby
Let me play Devil's advocate a moment.

You say the man is a creep - I think that it your opinion, and not a fact.
You say he could not live with the consequences of his actions, and that he is a coward - now, imagine this:
-he has already been cleared of one allegation against him, and that allegation is shaky at best - to fondle someone while pinning on a ribbon could easily have been a mistaken contact, or a misiniterpretation by onlookers (or even the recipient of the ribbon)
-he is allowed back to his profession, but under strict rules as if he was actually found guilty of the charge which has been dropped.
-an 18 year old is not necessarily a child, or inexperienced sexually, and this could have been a legitimate relationship.
-he may be married - I find that irrelevant to this issue without further knowledge of the nature of the marriage and the personalities of this man and his wife - what if they have an open marriage?
-none of the students nor his wife were inclined to implicate him in any way

Now, bearing in mind the way his previous case had been handled, can you maybe consider that a man perhaps felt he was being unfairly persecuted, by one individual in particular, and would never be allowed a relatively normal life, given that his career was dismissed without any kind of hearing?

If he truly didn't have a guilty conscience he could live a normal life afterward.

I had a step-grandparent kill himself after being caught red-handed molesting kids, and even one of my cousins.

He hung himself (I only met him once, and he was creepy).

I think a guilty conscience is showing through here.

He could move.

His career dismissed, well he could still work in another profession that doesn't involve young people.

We all know of people who are wrongly accused, and they face the music for years and years until they are proven innocent. They don't give up and kill themselves.

Of course, I don't know any of this for sure, but it's highly unlikely he had an open marriage.



-none of the students nor his wife were inclined to implicate him in any way

How did they know he was up to anything then? I'll go back and read over it again, someone was inclined to implicate him. Maybe his wife did rat on him.

It would be great to know more about all this, juicy gossip :p Moreover, it does give me the creeps.

[Eos of the Eons]

It was in this setting that Sanchez was allowed to return to school last Monday, but with a stern written warning from Superintendent Delores Morgan forbidding him from being alone with any female student -- either on or off school property -- or be fired, Waggoner said.

See, he was allowed back to work.

I smell a rat :p :D

Investigators also had a difficult time cracking a code of silence among several of the ROTC students who had been drilled by Sanchez to remain loyal to each other and him. Waggoner called the process of culling information from students similar to ''wrestling Jell-O.''


Hmmm, smell more rat...manipulation.


According to Morgan's letter, investigators had:

- Obtained a sworn deposition from a male student who had witnessed Sanchez kissing the female student at Admiral King High School.

- Learned that Sanchez had taken the female student to a Lorain park on a number of occasions last summer for ''workout'' sessions.

Then he tries to deny kissing her in the hotel room, lol. Turns out the hickey implicated him, and the girl hiding in the bathroom when the cops came in.

Yep, I still think he's all rat.

[bug_girl]

Originally posted by Doubt
[B]In most places in the US, it is professional misconduct for any educator to have sexual relations with their students. Primarily this is the case because of the authority of the educator places the student in a bad situation. It does not matter that the girl was 18. B]

This is absolutely correct.
How many 18-21 yr olds. of either sex, would be interested in a 40yr old that they met at a bar? The power dynamic inplicit in the teacher/student relationship creates a situation where a student undergoing a stressful time of personal development and self doubt can be validated by a powerful authority figure. "i must be smart/pretty, because professor X is attracted to me."

Those of you that don't see a problem--don't let me catch you at my university :)

[El Greco]

Originally posted by bug_girl
How many 18-21 yr olds. of either sex, would be interested in a 40yr old that they met at a bar?

All of them, depending on the 40yr old. Russell Crowe is 40, Sharon Stone is 46.

[Hagrok]

Originally posted by bug_girl
This is absolutely correct.
How many 18-21 yr olds. of either sex, would be interested in a 40yr old that they met at a bar? ....
I wouldn't even say it's really that uncommon, at least from my personal experience.

It's especially irritating when the girl you're trying to date goes for your friend who's exactly 20 years older then you. But I'm not bitter ;)

Seems like, at least in a university situation, two responsible adults could wait a bit until there was no ethical violations; e.g. wait until you finish the guy's (or gal's) class...

--Dan

[bug_girl]

Originally posted by El Greco
All of them, depending on the 40yr old. Russell Crowe is 40, Sharon Stone is 46.

el greco, you are 18??? :D

and in your example there is also a power differential. in the cases i see (and that is part of my job, unfortunately) the student usually has very low self esteem, or has a separation issue.

I'm with Dan. You may come and work at my university :)

[El Greco]

Originally posted by bug_girl


el greco, you are 18???

No, but I'm 36 and I look at it from the other side of the river :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by cabby
Let me play Devil's advocate a moment.

You say the man is a creep - I think that it your opinion, and not a fact.

Well, whenever anybody calls anybody else a creep, it's not really a fact, granted...

Originally posted by cabby
You say he could not live with the consequences of his actions, and that he is a coward - now, imagine this:
-he has already been cleared of one allegation against him, and that allegation is shaky at best - to fondle someone while pinning on a ribbon could easily have been a mistaken contact, or a misiniterpretation by onlookers (or even the recipient of the ribbon)
-he is allowed back to his profession, but under strict rules as if he was actually found guilty of the charge which has been dropped.

No; he was allowed back to his profession with the stipulation that if he was found alone with any female student (the particulars of the charge itself notwithstanding) he would be fired. That was an ultimatum, not open for negotiation; and Sanchez consciously and knowlegably agreed to it. Therefore he knew what would happen if he were caught; he just did it anyway, which is indicative of irresponsibility on his part.

Originally posted by cabby
-an 18 year old is not necessarily a child, or inexperienced sexually, and this could have been a legitimate relationship.

Wholly irrelevant considering the facts I've given above.

Originally posted by cabby
-he may be married - I find that irrelevant to this issue without further knowledge of the nature of the marriage and the personalities of this man and his wife - what if they have an open marriage?

I suppose that may be true. However, his wife allegedly believed his claims of "innocence". The way things turned out, he most likely wasn't so innocent after all; this means at the very least he "led" his wife to believe he wasn't messing around, and thus was dishonest...bad juju. And "everybody is dishonest" is not a sufficient excuse, because he wasn't in trouble for the dishonesty, it was simply another glitch on his "personality" record, and other indication of his inability or unwillingness to face up to his actions.

Originally posted by cabby
-none of the students nor his wife were inclined to implicate him in any way

As a whole, they may not have been inclined; yet several students did provide pertinent information, including the identity of the girl whom was later found in the hotel room with him. That incident provided corroboration and therefore credibility to the claims of the students.

Originally posted by cabby
Now, bearing in mind the way his previous case had been handled, can you maybe consider that a man perhaps felt he was being unfairly persecuted, by one individual in particular, and would never be allowed a relatively normal life, given that his career was dismissed without any kind of hearing?

I had considered that, and ended up rejecting it even in my opening post.

[Dragonrock]

I would like to point out that most, if not all, highschool ROTC instructors are retired military and are not bound by the UCMJ anymore. I think that whatever branch of the service they represent can ask the schoolboard to release them but they can't recieve military punishment anymore.