Will there be a war between Islam and the West?

[Thunder]

will there be an eventual out all conflict between many Muslim states and Europe/North America?

I say....it is a possibility.

[leftysergeant]

There remains a chance that we will accidently elect some moron End Timer who thinks that God wants him to push the button.

[quarky]

I though it started quite a while ago.

[MarkCorrigan]

Please define who you think the war will be between. Provide possible and/or definite parties for both sides. Thank you.

[WildCat]

Where's the Planet X option?

[funk de fino]

I said no. Bush and Cheney are gone. However, I reserve the right to change this if Palin is elected.

[quadraginta]

I think a war within Islam is much more likely, with the various interests of "the West" choosing sides on the basis of temporary domestic political expediency.

I find that scenario much more disturbing.

[WildCat]

I said no. Bush and Cheney are gone. However, I reserve the right to change this if Palin is elected.
So how do you define a "war against Islam"?

[McHrozni]

will there be an eventual out all conflict between many Muslim states and Europe/North America?

I say....it is a possibility.

Well, the way things are right now and in the foreseeable future, it would be about like seeing the epic wrestling match of Barbie vs Godzilla.

In other words, if we see an all out war, it will be an extremely short one - possibly rivaling British-Zanzibar war in length and how one sided it would be.

McHrozni

[The Atheist]

In other words, if we see an all out war, it will be an extremely short one - possibly rivaling British-Zanzibar war in length and how one sided it would be.

McHrozni

Dunno about that. That Seppo Major Army Failure knocked over five a few months back in one go. Just for ironic purposes, he was a shrink, wasn't he?

How many muslims in USA?

[Thunder]

I mean the USA, Britain, France, Germany, and possible other Euro-states, against Iran, Syria, Pakistan, S. Arabia, and other Muslim states.

such a war may come about as a result of anti-Muslim measures passed in near future in Euro states, or due to the further radicalization of Muslim states.

i think all the ingredients are there: an growing and increasingly isolated Muslim minority, increased tensions between Western and Muslim states, increased prejudice against Muslims, future possible terror attacks in Europe,...

basically an ever magnifying tit-for-tat.

[Bikewer]

I don't see "Islam" as any sort of united front, whether you are speaking about countries, cultures, or the religion itself. There are, after all, about a billion Muslims by most counts, yet the groups that are engaged in violent struggle are a vastly small minority of that number.

[Skeptic]

I said no. Bush and Cheney are gone.

But Al Quaeda, Hamas, Hizbullah, Iran's leaders, etc. are still here.

And Obama is finding out Bush wasn't quite the war-mongering knuckle-dragger he called him. He is adopting more and more of Bush's eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil colonialist-imperialist extra-judicial-killing state-terrorism policies. (How is closing Gitmo coming along, again? Getting out of Iraq? Afghanistan? What's this missile shield next to Iran all of a sudden?)

What had made Obama such a horrible warmonger all of a sudden? Well, that might have to do with him now actually being responsible for the safety of the USA instead of just having to be responsible to find stuff to blame on Bush. The former seems to be rather harder than the latter. Who would have thought?

Anyway, while, technically, of course, there would be no war with Islam because there is no such thing as "Islam" or "the West" per se, if what you mean is "war between a western country and Iran", or "major terrorist attacks on western target by Islamic terrorists", or "riots between Muslims and non-Muslims in western cities", then yes, such a war is quite possible. Indeed it is already going on.

The best way to defeat it is the Muslims themselves. Look at Iran: if the student revolution succeeds, there will be no war. Or look at Europe: if Muslims that are sick and tired of the pro-Jihad preachers get hold of education and cooperate with authorities on integration, there will be no civil riots. And so on.

But certainly the west can help by not acting like dhimmis, as can be seen by, say, putting politicians on trial for (in effect) insulting Islam, the Met withdrawing images of Muhammad lest some Muslim object (this is, as it were, preemptive dhimmitude: no Muslim, so far as I know, actually objected), and so on, is hardly helping. It encourages extremism as something that works.

[Thunder]

I don't see "Islam" as any sort of united front, whether you are speaking about countries, cultures, or the religion itself. There are, after all, about a billion Muslims by most counts, yet the groups that are engaged in violent struggle are a vastly small minority of that number.

well, I didn't mean ALL Muslims, or even ALL Muslim countries.

we had two world wars, and neither of them involved troops or the territories of the entire world.

[MarkCorrigan]

I mean the USA, Britain, France, Germany, and possible other Euro-states, against Iran, Syria, Pakistan, S. Arabia, and other Muslim states.


Any combination of those states as a united front?

Let's just say that if that happens, we're all already well past boned. They HATE one another. About the only thing most of them can agree on is that Islam is a good thing, but then they fight over what brand.

Also, if Pakistan EVER got involved in a war with the EU nations or the USA, India will attack them and we;re in a whole other pile of crap.

Your grasp of world politics is weak indeed if you think those nations will ever do more than squabble with one another parky.

[leftysergeant]

The danger is some xenophobic or End Timer movement taking power in one of the western nations and deciding to take back all of the Holy Land for Christ.

According to the End Timers, that is how the Final Days are to start.

They need to read the first chapter of the book of Daniel and consider the meaning of the idol.

No winners on either side.

[Thunder]

The danger is some xenophobic or End Timer movement taking power in one of the western nations and deciding to take back all of the Holy Land for Christ.

ummm...that already happened. his name was General Allenby.

"He is also more controversially alleged to have said, "today the crusades have ended."[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Allenby,_1st_Viscount_Allenby#cite_note-2)"

[Thunder]

And Obama is finding out Bush wasn't quite the war-mongering knuckle-dragger he called him. He is adopting more and more of Bush's eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil colonialist-imperialist extra-judicial-killing state-terrorism policies. (How is closing Gitmo coming along, again? Getting out of Iraq? Afghanistan? What's this missile shield next to Iran all of a sudden?)


not strawman arguments, but actual lies. when did Obama every make such claims?

wow Skeptic, you are truly on a roll.

[quarky]

K. Vonnegut, in one of his books, i forget which one, made this claim:

WW3 is all the war that has happened since WW2.

I think he was onto something.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The danger is some xenophobic or End Timer movement taking power in one of the western nations and deciding to take back all of the Holy Land for Christ.

Right... because we all know there is no danger at all of a xenophobic End Timer movement taking power in a muslim nation and kick-starting the apocalypse. :rolleyes:

[Sporanox]

But Al Quaeda, Hamas, Hizbullah, Iran's leaders, etc. are still here.

And Obama is finding out Bush wasn't quite the war-mongering knuckle-dragger he called him. He is adopting more and more of Bush's eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil colonialist-imperialist extra-judicial-killing state-terrorism policies. (How is closing Gitmo coming along, again? Getting out of Iraq? Afghanistan? What's this missile shield next to Iran all of a sudden?)

What had made Obama such a horrible warmonger all of a sudden? Well, that might have to do with him now actually being responsible for the safety of the USA instead of just having to be responsible to find stuff to blame on Bush. The former seems to be rather harder than the latter. Who would have thought?

Anyway, while, technically, of course, there would be no war with Islam because there is no such thing as "Islam" or "the West" per se, if what you mean is "war between a western country and Iran", or "major terrorist attacks on western target by Islamic terrorists", or "riots between Muslims and non-Muslims in western cities", then yes, such a war is quite possible. Indeed it is already going on.

The best way to defeat it is the Muslims themselves. Look at Iran: if the student revolution succeeds, there will be no war. Or look at Europe: if Muslims that are sick and tired of the pro-Jihad preachers get hold of education and cooperate with authorities on integration, there will be no civil riots. And so on.

But certainly the west can help by not acting like dhimmis, as can be seen by, say, putting politicians on trial for (in effect) insulting Islam, the Met withdrawing images of Muhammad lest some Muslim object (this is, as it were, preemptive dhimmitude: no Muslim, so far as I know, actually objected), and so on, is hardly helping. It encourages extremism as something that works.

QFT.

Also, considering pan-Arabism has never really worked too well, owing to the fractured nature of international relations in the ME, and Indonesia and India are where a good deal of Muslims live and work, I severely doubt action against Islam itself is in the cards. In addition, as Bikewer has pointed out, to believe in the possibility of an eventual confrontation is to believe that extremism runs far deeper in the Muslim population than a few bad apples...

[leftysergeant]

Right... because we all know there is no danger at all of a xenophobic End Timer movement taking power in a muslim nation and kick-starting the apocalypse. :rolleyes:

Read the Qur'an. There is no call to prepare for the End of Ages other than to have your own scales properly weighted when you go before the Judgement.

End Timers think that we have to prepare to do battle against the forces of evil.

There is nothinmg scarier or more dangerous than a nutbar who thinks God told him he has to fight and wipe out an opposing religion.

[funk de fino]

So how do you define a "war against Islam"?

Did you read the thread title?

[Sporanox]

Read the Qur'an. There is no call to prepare for the End of Ages other than to have your own scales properly weighted when you go before the Judgement.

End Timers think that we have to prepare to do battle against the forces of evil.

There is nothinmg scarier or more dangerous than a nutbar who thinks God told him he has to fight and wipe out an opposing religion.

Read the Bible. There is no call to prepare arms for the end times.

But we all know religious extremists are so intellectually honest with their religion...like they are when they kill fellow Muslims right and left despite the perennial corrections of moderate Muslims.

Giving more slack to Muslim fundamentalists than their Christian counterparts? Just what I would expect from you, lefty, especially considering the long string of Catholic suicide bombings recently.

[Darat]

Since a war between Pakistan and India seems to have faded away I can't think of any "Islamic" state that even looks like it is preparing for a war against any state - never mind countries that they have no practical means to launch even a military attack against never mind wage war. And the only other country that could launch an attack against an Islamic country would be the USA and despite the heated rhetoric between the Iran and the USA I don't see any motivation for the USA to go to war against Iran.

[Sporanox]

Since a war between Pakistan and India seems to have faded away I can't think of any "Islamic" state that even looks like it is preparing for a war against any state - never mind countries that they have no practical means to launch even a military attack against never mind wage war. And the only other country that could launch an attack against an Islamic country would be the USA and despite the heated rhetoric between the Iran and the USA I don't see any motivation for the USA to go to war against Iran.

Not to mention that a war against Iran would not be anywhere near a "war on Islam."

[Slayhamlet]

Read the Qur'an. There is no call to prepare for the End of Ages other than to have your own scales properly weighted when you go before the Judgement.

End Timers think that we have to prepare to do battle against the forces of evil.

There is nothinmg scarier or more dangerous than a nutbar who thinks God told him he has to fight and wipe out an opposing religion.

There's more to Islam than the Qur'an. Islam has its share of apocalyptic crazies.

"One should fight the Jews and vanquish them so that the conditions for the advent of the Hidden Imam may be met." -Hossein Noori Hamedani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossein_Noori_Hamedani)

[leftysergeant]

There's more to Islam than the Qur'an. Islam has its share of apocalyptic crazies.

"One should fight the Jews and vanquish them so that the conditions for the advent of the Hidden Imam may be met." -Hossein Noori Hamedani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossein_Noori_Hamedani)Not all Muslims are Shiite. Most of them, outside of Iran, are sunni.

[Slayhamlet]

Not all Muslims are Shiite. Most of them, outside of Iran, are sunni.

Not all Christians are Dispensationalist. In fact, only a tiny minority are. So what?

Also, Iraq is majority Shi'a. That doesn't mean they all want to wage war so the Mahdi will come out of occultation. Some do, though.

[Corsair 115]

If there's a war on Islam, my first question would be: On the Sunni portion of Islam? Or the Shiite portion? Or both portions?

The Sunni/Shiite divide seems, as far as I'm aware, to be a rather important one to many of the followers of the Islamic faith.

[Skeptic]

Read the Qur'an. There is no call to prepare for the End of Ages other than to have your own scales properly weighted when you go before the Judgement.

Alas, I read the Koran -- and was underwhelmed. Compared to the Old and New testament, who are works of genius, whatever one thinks of the theology, the Koran is rather pathetic. It's as if Fred Phelps wrote it. Fully of rants about how inferior and awful unbelievers are, and how superior and wondeful the followers of Muhammad are. The description of heaven in the Koran, for example, is like something a thirteen-year-old who had just discovered sex would write. It's one big orgy of sex and food and drink. Adolescent and rather lacking in imagination, to boot.

This is not too surprising for a work culled together from the rantings of an illiterate caravan-leader in 7th century Arabia, and collected by followers later, saving the verses not by narrative coherence but by length. To blame Muhammad for lacking in literary taste is like blaming him for sucking at nuclear physics. Unlike the Jews and Christians who wrote the Old and New testament, he had practically no literary tradition or ideas of taste or refinement to learn from; he did the best he could to appeal to the rude Arab tribes of his time, for political reasons, probably.

But I get the feeling that a lot of the hysterics about the Koran being "insulted" in the Muslim world comes from the sneaking suspicion, the nagging doubt, that their work of prophecy and God's will is very much inferior to other people's version, be it the old testament, the new testament, or the Hindu and Buddhist holy texts.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Read the Qur'an.

Read a frakking newspaper. His name is Ahmedinejad.

[Thunder]

Read a frakking newspaper. His name is Ahmedinejad.

no, its Ahmadinejad.

[Just thinking]

I thought it was I'madinnerjacket.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I thought it was I'madinnerjacket.

Or Ineedadayjob?

[Darth Rotor]

I though it started quite a while ago.

It did. Parky still doesn't understand. Quelle surprise.

I mean the USA, Britain, France, Germany, and possible other Euro-states, against Iran, Syria, Pakistan, S. Arabia, and other Muslim states.
Kindergarten thinking.

Parky, this forum is allegedly to promote Critical thinking, not kindergarten thinking. Please find a forum better suited for your posts.

DR

[Thunder]

Or Ineedadayjob?

or how about..."Ineed2learn2research"

[Undesired Walrus]

This is a very lazy thread.

I mean the USA, Britain, France, Germany, and possible other Euro-states, against Iran, Syria, Pakistan, S. Arabia, and other Muslim states.


How does this translate into a war between Islam and the West?

[Undesired Walrus]

Compared to the Old and New testament, who are works of genius,

:confused:

Care to justify this?

[The Atheist]

It did. Parky still doesn't understand. Quelle surprise.

When do you count from as the start?

I vacillate between 1095 and 1948.

[dudalb]

It did. Parky still doesn't understand. Quelle surprise.


Kindergarten thinking.

Parky, this forum is allegedly to promote Critical thinking, not kindergarten thinking. Please find a forum better suited for your posts.

DR

Particularly considering that some of the Muslim countries that Parky says will ally against the West hate each other's guts.

[dudalb]

Since a war between Pakistan and India seems to have faded away I can't think of any "Islamic" state that even looks like it is preparing for a war against any state - never mind countries that they have no practical means to launch even a military attack against never mind wage war. And the only other country that could launch an attack against an Islamic country would be the USA and despite the heated rhetoric between the Iran and the USA I don't see any motivation for the USA to go to war against Iran.

THe possibility of war between Pakistan and India seems to go up and down on a regular basis. A radical takeover of Pakistan could change the equation over night.
I think you are being a little too optimistic there.

[WildCat]

Did you read the thread title?
Yes.

How do you define a "war against Islam"?

[Thunder]

Particularly considering that some of the Muslim countries that Parky says will ally against the West hate each other's guts.

ever heard of an alliance of convenience?

the USSR and Nazi Germany were military and political allies from 1938 through 1941.

[Sporanox]

ever heard of an alliance of convenience?

the USSR and Nazi Germany were military and political allies from 1938 through 1941.

There's too many different factors in play. The situations are not exactly comparable.

[Eddie Dane]

Alas, I read the Koran -- and was underwhelmed. Compared to the Old and New testament, who are works of genius, whatever one thinks of the theology, the Koran is rather pathetic. It's as if Fred Phelps wrote it. Fully of rants about how inferior and awful unbelievers are, and how superior and wondeful the followers of Muhammad are. The description of heaven in the Koran, for example, is like something a thirteen-year-old who had just discovered sex would write. It's one big orgy of sex and food and drink. Adolescent and rather lacking in imagination, to boot.

This is not too surprising for a work culled together from the rantings of an illiterate caravan-leader in 7th century Arabia, and collected by followers later, saving the verses not by narrative coherence but by length. To blame Muhammad for lacking in literary taste is like blaming him for sucking at nuclear physics. Unlike the Jews and Christians who wrote the Old and New testament, he had practically no literary tradition or ideas of taste or refinement to learn from; he did the best he could to appeal to the rude Arab tribes of his time, for political reasons, probably.

But I get the feeling that a lot of the hysterics about the Koran being "insulted" in the Muslim world comes from the sneaking suspicion, the nagging doubt, that their work of prophecy and God's will is very much inferior to other people's version, be it the old testament, the new testament, or the Hindu and Buddhist holy texts.

I'm not that impressed with the Old Testament either.
But I'll say in it's defense that that there was no previous literary tradition and they seemed to have made quite an important intellectual step with it.

But compared to Homer? Forgeddaboutit.

The Koran was an assault on my intellect from page one.
Muslims claim that it has extraordinary poetic power. But these are the same people that marvel at it mentioning the atom. Without mentioning it specifically, of course.

Wow, a mere 800 years after Democritus posed the theory of the atom, the Koran's authors come up with a bit of riming woo that could maybe be about the same thing. Boy, I'm converted.

[Darth Rotor]

When do you count from as the start?

I vacillate between 1095 and 1948.

711, Señor. ;)

FWIW: I was actually attempting to bring the conversation into the year 2010, and the reality that politics, suasion, and the war sub element of politics have all continued to change in form over time.

DR

[GreNME]

I think a war within Islam is much more likely, with the various interests of "the West" choosing sides on the basis of temporary domestic political expediency.

I find that scenario much more disturbing.

This is the sole realistic prediction so far in the thread, which is supported with historical precedent.

[Darth Rotor]

This is the sole realistic prediction so far in the thread, which is supported with historical precedent.

A modest sized war within the Umma is ongoing in Iraq, has been since about 2003. That you consider what he said to be a prediction, rather than an observation of current events, does not surprise me, but it saddens me since that view is for my money far too common.

Another sort of war within the Umma is ongoing in Afghanistan.

A different sort of war is percolating in Yemen.

DR

[Beerina]

There's nothing that power hungry demagogues in the Middle East want more than to have a war with the nations funneling them a trillion dollars a year. :rolleyes:

See, "hate the West" is a useful tool for them to control their own people, which works very well, especially in a context of a dictatorship and a controlled news media. It's not actually intended to be a plan for the nation-states as a whole.

So, too, the similar idea some idealogue who wants to "push the button" may be elected in the hated United States. That some actually believe this suggests they, too, are living in the world of this narrative rather than the real world.

[GreNME]

A modest sized war within the Umma is ongoing in Iraq, has been since about 2003. That you consider what he said to be a prediction, rather than an observation of current events, does not surprise me, but it saddens me since that view is for my money far too common.

Another sort of war within the Umma is ongoing in Afghanistan.

A different sort of war is percolating in Yemen.

DR

Yeah, it's not just a prediction, but basically a description of US foreign policy for at least 40 years.

[Skeptic]

:confused:

Care to justify this?

Well, I've read them both, the former in the original Hebrew (a few late chapters are in Syriac, but I can manage with that -- you got to know these sort of things when you're king, you know...) and the are works of genius in my judgment.

The book of psalms, for example, is incredible poetry -- unfortunately, like most poetry, it loses much in translation since the poetic devices used (parallelism, for example) and the meter are completely lost in translation. So is the story of the prophets, many of them standing against the king and the people to correct them. The Lord's prayer could not possibly be equaled, in my view; Jesus' parables and moral lessons are sometimes shockingly intense.

And those are just a few examples. I am, of course, hardly alone in this. Sure, some parts are bizzare to our sensibilities -- but so are some parts of the Illiad or Shakespeare.

[Darth Rotor]

Yeah, it's not just a prediction, but basically a description of US foreign policy for at least 40 years.
Sort of. The 1973 oil embargo was a tipping point, in terms of latent hostility among the American electorate. I may be overstating the case, but I think decision, among the Arabs and to a lesser extent the membership of OPEC at the time, was a significant point of departure, regardless of how cozy Carter, Reagan, Bush, or Clinton, or Bush, got with various Arab or other Muslim, heads of state. It is still easy to tap into that well of latent hostility, as an elected American official. 9-11 just made it easier.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

The Lord's prayer could not possibly be equaled, in my view; Jesus' parables and moral lessons are sometimes shockingly intense.


I am trying to get that down in Aramaic: I have a sort of phonetic version that I read from, but I honestly think I am butchering the pronunciation.

Any tips on how to improve that? I spoke some German as a child, so I can do rolled R and gutteral pronunciation, and speak smatterings of Italian and Spanish.

Any pointers, PM if need be, would be appreciated. IIRC, Syriac and Aramaic are of the same language tree.

DR