Who gets to have their own country?

[Eddie Dane]

Right now there are a whole lot of active independence movements. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_autonomist_and_secessionist_movemen ts)

I've noticed that in many cases I have an opinion about independence movements.
This opinion is usually based on personal taste and a little historical knowledge.

Some I support, some I find silly.

IRA: I understand the traumatic history and the identity issue. But England has chilled out and you can have your Irish identity whilst being part of the UK. best leave thing as they are.

Zionism: I support the existence of the Jewish state, but not it's expansionist policies.

ETA (Basque). Franco was a prick. You are semi autonomous. get over it.

PKK. For some odd reason, I feel that the Kurds should have their own state. It would overlap bits of Iran, Iraq and Turkey. Despite the PKK being a very odious organisation, I think the Kurds would make something good of their state.

Texas separatists. In need of a hobby, me thinks.

And so on...

The thing is, the closer i feel to a country, the more I think seceding from it is a dumb idea. The more abstract the country is, the more I feel it could give up a bit of land.

I also tend to think that if the country isn't too repressive, the minority should not open a can of worms and fight for independence.

Do you have cases where you feel strongly about secession. Pro or con?
And what is the rationale behind your ideas?

[shuize]

Frysland.

Because I don't feel particularly close to the Dutch.

[The Painter]

Who gets to have their own country?

The winner.

[Meadmaker]

Texas separatists. In need of a hobby, me thinks.


I strongly support Texas independence.

And I suspect that you could find lots of people from 49 different states who feel the same way.

Is there any way we could spark a California independence movement, too?


But seriously, I tend to agree with your assessment. In cases like Ireland, I think it matters little whether they are part of the UK or Ireland or if Ulster became their own, independent, nation. The truth is that Ireland was never a unified, independent, Irish nation in the first place. It was the sort of place where lots of people agreed that there was a High King, but no one agreed on whom he happened to be at any given time.

[Thunder]

well, it appears that we tend to follow certain guidelines as to which groups get their own country, and which don't.

-a previous nation state.

-recognized borders.

-ethnic and culture cohesiveness and tradition.

-suffered from discrimination against your language/ culture.

-a widespread desire for independence.

put that all together, and there is a good chance you may have your own state, or at least an autonomous republic, some day.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I like those that have the support of a majority in the region.

Srsly, who are we to tell the people living in region X that their issues aren't important?

On a more comical note, I like Scottish independence not because of any particular reason for it, but because the English responses to it are so prickish. They remind me of a bad marriage, "You depend on our money," "You couldn't make it on your own."

[Puppycow]

PKK. For some odd reason, I feel that the Kurds should have their own state. It would overlap bits of Iran, Iraq and Turkey. Despite the PKK being a very odious organisation, I think the Kurds would make something good of their state.

What is the deal with the PKK anyway? I've heard of them but don't really know enough to have an opinion.

Here's a slideshow about them (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/photo_galleries/article6360113.ece?slideshowPopup=true&articleId=6360113&sectionName=WorldIraq)

About 40 per cent of PKK fighters are women

It reminds me of this song:
k5JkHBC5lDs

[Eddie Dane]

Frysland.

Because I don't feel particularly close to the Dutch.

No way José.

Frysland is our main source of super models (http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=doutzen&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi).

There are some natural resources over which we're willing to fight.

[Arcade22]

All people should have an independent country if they want.

[Darat]

Outside of repression (for instance one ethnicity within a country having more rights than another, not having a vote in a representative government of some sort), I have a rule of thumb "100 years" as to where to draw the lines. If the "independence" is hawking back to a time 100 years or more ago then that's wishing for a fantasy as the world a 100 years ago was nothing like the world today.

[Eddie Dane]

All people should have an independent country if they want.

You'd be willing to give the Northern half of Sweden to the indigenous Lap population?

Not that hard I guess, most economic activity is in the south anyway.

But If the main population centers had a Muslim majority in forty years? Would you support it renaming itself the Islamic republic of Mohammedstan? The national anthem would be to the tune of Abba's Dancing Queen, but the lyrics would be:

Durkha
Durkha
Mohammed
Jihad

Give it a try, it's quite catchy.

[Bikewer]

It seems to me that despite the rise of huge nation-states that humans tend to be happiest in small communities. One author pointed out that Italians do not tend to think of themselves as "Italian", but rather as Neapolitan or Sardinian or whatever.
Likely If you asked most folks "Where are you from?" the answer would be a city rather than a state or country.
First-generation immigrants tend to live in areas filled with people like themselves, with the same language and customs and appearance.
I would speculate that this is all rather atavistic; we evolved in very small hunter-gatherer groups for much more of our history than we've spent "civilized"....

I suppose it's easy to fall back to this sort of position when a group feels ostracized, discriminated against, or otherwise threatened.

[Cleon]

You'd be willing to give the Northern half of Sweden to the indigenous Lap population?


Free Geatland! ;)

[Oliver]

Bavaria/Bayern. And I have no clue what the intention of those lunatics supporting the idea to split Bavaria from the rest of Germany is...

[lomiller]

I think the guideline would be a definable boarder where a significant majority the people who live there want to be a country rather then part of some other country. Recent immigration legal or not can play a role as well. This can get muddy, but it should still be possible to come up with some guidelines.

I strongly support Texas independence.

And I suspect that you could find lots of people from 49 different states who feel the same way.

Is there any way we could spark a California independence movement, too?




Texas is essentially neutral in terms of what it contributes in taxes and what it receives in spending, so the rest of the country wouldn’t notice its absence much. California and New York are the biggest contributing states. Illinois and New Jersey Contribute as much per person but have much lower populations. Colorado and Minnesota also contribute as much per person but have lower populations again. These six states ultimately pay for most out-of-country and transfers to less well off states.

All this is prior to the recession so number may be a little different now. I would not be surprised if the biggest single reason for current US deficits are a drop off in net revenue collected from California and New York.

[Rolfe]

The winner.


Yup.

Rolfe.

[Thunder]

well...Poland did not win WW1...and yet they got their independence back. As did Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.

[Skeptic]

Tribes of sex-starved amazons with loose morals and no visa requirements for male visitors.

For obvious reasons.

[Arcade22]

You'd be willing to give the Northern half of Sweden to the indigenous Lap population?

Not that hard I guess, most economic activity is in the south anyway.

I'm not an absolutist in my belief in national self-determination, and i believe that the well being of the Swedish people must come before everything else.
Thus for the sake of the Swedish peoples continued prosperity all land that is in control of the Swedish state should remain in its control forever.

But If the main population centers had a Muslim majority in forty years? Would you support it renaming itself the Islamic republic of Mohammedstan? The national anthem would be to the tune of Abba's Dancing Queen, but the lyrics would be:

Durkha
Durkha
Mohammed
Jihad

Give it a try, it's quite catchy.

Muslims have no historical or cultural connecting to Sweden. Besides, if the Muslims tried to secede 'their' part of Sweden they would be hanging from a noose before they could even scream 'allahu akbar'.

[casebro]

The winner.

Yup. That's the way it has always worked. Whatever you can take and hold.

Frinstance, Israel took the Golan heights and the Gaza strip, and should keep them as spoils of war. Residents should take a loyalty oath or get tossed out.

Ireland? The IRA didn't manage to kick the Brits out. They lost. They can move south though.

America took themselves out of the British empire. Have held for 250 years. Seems fair.

[Cleon]

Muslims have no historical or cultural connecting to Sweden.

Swedish Muslims certainly do. Being Swedish and all.


Besides, if the Muslims tried to secede 'their' part of Sweden they would be hanging from a noose before they could even scream 'allahu akbar'.

Sweden's constitution explicitly prohibits capital punishment. No exceptions.

[Thunder]

Muslims have no historical or cultural connecting to Sweden. Besides, if the Muslims tried to secede 'their' part of Sweden they would be hanging from a noose before they could even scream 'allahu akbar'.

what about Jews? wanna lynch us too?

[Eddie Dane]

I'm not an absolutist in my belief in national self-determination, and i believe that the well being of the Swedish people must come before everything else.
Thus for the sake of the Swedish peoples continued prosperity all land that is in control of the Swedish state should remain in its control forever.



Muslims have no historical or cultural connecting to Sweden. Besides, if the Muslims tried to secede 'their' part of Sweden they would be hanging from a noose before they could even scream 'allahu akbar'.

Ever hear of Kosovo? Formerly Serbian province that attracted a lot of Albanian immigrants. For obvious reasons: Albania was essentially a communist trailer park for many decades.
Well, those immigrants became a majority and declared their own state. based on your supported for a state for every group that wants it, I'd think you'd support such a state.

My point in the OP was that my support or opposition is not at all rational, but mostly emotional. You seem to illustrate this as you also feel independence is fine for far away peoples, but not for minorities in a state you identify with.
If I lived in Turkey I'd probably hate the idea of an independent Kurdistan.

[GreNME]

Texas is essentially neutral in terms of what it contributes in taxes and what it receives in spending, so the rest of the country wouldn’t notice its absence much. California and New York are the biggest contributing states. Illinois and New Jersey Contribute as much per person but have much lower populations. Colorado and Minnesota also contribute as much per person but have lower populations again. These six states ultimately pay for most out-of-country and transfers to less well off states.

All this is prior to the recession so number may be a little different now. I would not be surprised if the biggest single reason for current US deficits are a drop off in net revenue collected from California and New York.

Yes, this would be my assessment of Texas as far as economic importance to the country as well. However, I'd also point out that there are a large number of corporations with headquarters located in Texas for tax incentives, and many of these would relocate their headquarters (or change them to international branches) were Texas to secede, thus removing a great deal of white collar revenue from the Texas economy in pretty quick succession. The only population who would be hurt by Texas seceding would be the population of Texas.

[Shrike]

No way José.

Frysland is our main source of super models (http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&source=hp&q=doutzen&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi).

There are some natural resources over which we're willing to fight.

I say, put a big fence around it and see if they can survive on their own.
But only after my upcoming holiday there (see if I can spot some new 'material' :D).

[Eddie Dane]

I say, put a big fence around it and see if they can survive on their own.
But only after my upcoming holiday there (see if I can spot some new 'material' :D).

There must be a way to have free traffic of women, yet keep their music within their borders.

[The Fallen Serpent]

In my opinion the richer the country that is belonged to the worse the impact of secession. Even beyond being a slight receiver state in terms of taxes, there would be quite a few economic opportunities lost if Texas left the union. For instance all of the Federal defense research and manufacturing programs would need to move. I work for a company that only has manufacturing and research in Texas because of our defense contract work. It would no longer be part of the discount in infrastructure for instate systems. Such as the Interstate system of highways, federal school systems, military infrastructure, ect. This would hurt the rest of the US too but the impact would be mitigated by the other 49 states and sundry territories.

I would not oppose any democractically decided secession, but I believe it is in the best interest of a region or people to reform the internal system instead of separating. Though secession from an imperial relationship makes sense to me, most extra-territorial holdings of the US and UK appear to grant full citizenship rights to the locals now, even though the living in a location may restrict those rights. For instance, Puerto Ricans are full US citizens, but any US citizen in Puerto Rico has restricted access to federal participation but can fully engage when moving to a state.

I agree with the idea that the support or opposition to any specific movement is as much based in emotion as it is logic. It will be interesting to see the trends of unification and separation during the rest of my lifetime.

[Redtail]

Tribes of sex-starved amazons with loose morals and no visa requirements for male visitors.

For obvious reasons.

We have that already. It's called the "internet".

[Arcade22]

Swedish Muslims certainly do. Being Swedish and all.


How many ethnic Swedes are Muslim? Probably less than 2%.

Sweden's constitution explicitly prohibits capital punishment. No exceptions.

I don't give a damn what the constitution says.

[Arcade22]

what about Jews? wanna lynch us too?

If you Jews were to swamp Sweden and fail to integrate, speaking Yiddish in public and parasiting on the Swedish people,
and in some sort of absurd icing on the cake move, steal land from the Swedish people.

What other punishment would suffice for that kind of transgression?

[Damien Evans]

well...Poland did not win WW1...and yet they got their independence back. As did Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.

Greece and Bulgaria were already independent.

[GreNME]

How many ethnic Swedes are Muslim? Probably less than 2%.



I don't give a damn what the constitution says.

Well, it's nice to see you're not hiding your racism any more.

[Skeptic]

We have that already. It's called the "internet".

Nominated.

[Skeptic]

Well, it's nice to see you're not hiding your racism any more.

What do you mean, "any more"?

[Skeptic]

Greece and Bulgaria were already independent.

I don't think he means all those countries became independent after WWI, just that all of them got independence without winning the (or a) war.

[Skeptic]

If you Jews were to swamp Sweden and fail to integrate, speaking Yiddish in public

It amazes me this groyse potz of a goysche kopf has anything against mama-loshen. What a nudnik! FEH! Man kann sich platzen, I swear.

H'm. On second thought, nu, what can I say? Another Jew-hater. Azoy??? Some metzie. Ein bear gepegret in die wald. As if we Yids don't have enough tzores without him.

and parasiting on the Swedish people,-Mr. Jew, I understand you're moving to Switzerland. What will you do there?

-Well, I think I'll open a business...

-WHAT! And get rich, you dirty capitalist, off the work of the Swedish people you'll employ to make money for YOU! PARASITE!

-No no no, you don't understand... I will open a business in a Jewish neighborhood, and employ other Jews...

-WHAT! You just came there and ALREADY put yourself in a ghetto, giving jobs to your co-religionists while refusing to employ ethnic Swedes?! Your long range plan is to refuse to assimilate so you can TAKE OVER! PARASITE!

--Er... Okay... I'll just get a job then, never mind the business, if it annoys you so much...

-WHAT! And take a job an ethnic Swede would do?! PARASITE!

--Okay okay okay... forget about it... I'll just stay at home then...

-WHAT! And live off Swedish taxpayers' money instead of working?! PARASITE!

I think we've got a slight problem here. It seems that no matter what Jews (or Muslims or Blacks or whomever) do, some people will claim they're "parasites".

[Cleon]

How many ethnic Swedes are Muslim? Probably less than 2%.

So? They're still Swedes.


I don't give a damn what the constitution says.

For some reason, this doesn't surprise me one little bit.

[Thunder]

I don't give a damn what the constitution says.

well then you are a very unpatriotic Swede.

[lomiller]

Yes, this would be my assessment of Texas as far as economic importance to the country as well. However, I'd also point out that there are a large number of corporations with headquarters located in Texas for tax incentives, and many of these would relocate their headquarters (or change them to international branches) were Texas to secede, thus removing a great deal of white collar revenue from the Texas economy in pretty quick succession. The only population who would be hurt by Texas seceding would be the population of Texas.

You can’t really say that without knowing the trade relationship. For example Ireland made significant prosperity gains by setting corporate taxes much lower then other EU countries in order to attract corporate headquarters. At some point large differences in corporate tax rates can be a significant problem in free trade zones.

[Rolfe]

well...Poland did not win WW1...and yet they got their independence back. As did Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.


Winning doesn't equate to winning the war.

You have to win the war - or the revolution, or the election, or the referendum, or the political infighting....

Lots of different ways to do it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8509814.stm). It's as much about picking your battles as anything.

Rolfe.

[Thunder]

the Irish beat the British during the Easter Rebellion?

[Darth Rotor]

ETA (Basque). Franco was a prick. You are semi autonomous. get over it.
Careful, or your car will blow up. ;)
For some odd reason, I feel that the Kurds should have their own state. It would overlap bits of Iran, Iraq and Turkey. Despite the PKK being a very odious organisation, I think the Kurds would make something good of their state.
Me too. The Pashtun, as well.
Texas separatists. In need of a hobby, me thinks.
In need of a slightly larger field of view. ;)

And so on...

But you question is "who gets to have their own country" to which the answer is:

Whomever can start one, and hold onto one, by such means as are available.

DR

[GreNME]

You can’t really say that without knowing the trade relationship. For example Ireland made significant prosperity gains by setting corporate taxes much lower then other EU countries in order to attract corporate headquarters. At some point large differences in corporate tax rates can be a significant problem in free trade zones.

I can say that because certain companies with certain types of government contracts will need to maintain US-based headquarters regardless of any trade relationship. While the oil and refinery based corporations in Houston might not have to move, the tech and media based corporations, as well as notable names like FedEx and Perot Systems and Dell (and possibly Texas Instruments), located in Dallas and Austin would very likely have to move under such a change (or see revenue sources or contracts slim up). Also, millions of US citizens (like myself) would have to face a choice of getting a work visa or going back into the States for work, which would be workable for a lot of middle-class and higher but mostly untenable for working-class US citizens, and there would be lots of moving-- I wouldn't have to move but I would (on principle), and underestimating those who would do like me is a mistake. Every university in Texas would lose any (US) federal funding, which would mean job cuts, and many of those jobs being cut belonging to US citizens would result in moving back to the States. Let's not forget the US military, who would likely continue to pay for some of its current real estate in Texas but would also move huge portions of its operations outside of Texas borders (likely into Oklahoma and New Mexico). Texas could wave good-bye to NASA.

While yes, tax incentives could keep a number of companies with a presence in Texas, that wouldn't guarantee a large number of them who rely on being US-based for some of their contracts (or who need to be US-based for some of their contracts), while education, military, and federal scientific money would most assuredly move. For all of the ideological bluster that certain partisans may spout about "welfare" and government hand-outs, quite a bit of federal money props up a lot of Texas infrastructure and that money would all but stop, causing loads of jobs to move out of Texas. Texas could play the tax incentive game for a little while, but without the US taking up the slack Texas budgeting would hit a brick wall fairly quickly and would have to make up for it somehow. That's why when I hear idiots like Rick Perry (gov. of TX) talk about Texas seceding I think to myself "go ahead... I dare you." And, honestly, Texas would have an easier time than most of the other Southeastern states where swinging the Conferderate flag around is popular, yet even it would very likely not be able to stay fiscally sound for very long (barring handouts, which would be likely to come with conditions). I'd almost be inclined to support not trying to talk them out of it, since it would be interesting to see what kind of third-world country they manage to become.

[Madalch]

-Mr. Jew, I understand you're moving to Switzerland. What will you do there?

-Well, I think I'll open a business...

-WHAT! And get rich, you dirty capitalist, off the work of the Swedish people you'll employ to make money for YOU! PARASITE!

Swedish people? In Switzerland??

[The Fallen Serpent]

Swedish people? In Switzerland??

There must have been a hockey game.

[fullflavormenthol]

I think it is time to accept Sweden as a failed experiment and allow the neighboring countries to annex it. Of course the Constitution of Sweden would prevent that...

I don't give a damn what the constitution says.

Well then, back your bags.

[JCL]

You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer.

Frank Zappa

[lomiller]

Swedish people? In Switzerland??

Never seen "Trading Places"?