Mosad Hit Squad kills in Dubai?

[andyandy]

I'm surprised there isn't a thread on this (or if there is I've missed it :))

Big news in the UK because false UK passports were used.

Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman broke his government's silence over the Dubai assassination of a Hamas commander today and said there was no proof the Mossad intelligence agency was behind the killing.

However, he did not explicitly deny any Israeli involvement, saying his government had a "policy of ambiguity" on intelligence issues.

"I don't know why we take it for granted that it was Israel or Mossad that used those passports or the identities of that British citizen, yes or no. It's just not correct. Why are we in such a hurry to take all kinds of tasks upon ourselves?" Lieberman said in an interview with Israel's Army Radio.

He was speaking after details in the case began to point back to Israel. Seven Israelis with dual foreign citizenship, six of them apparently Britons and one American, had their identities stolen to be used in the forged passports relied on by the suspected assassins. The seven, who appear unconnected, have denied any involvement in the affair and say they have no idea how their identities were stolen.

Dubai police released on Monday the passport details of 11 people – six from Britain, three from Ireland and one each from France and Germany – that they said were behind the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, who was murdered in his Dubai hotel room last month.

The New York Times reported this morning that the hit team included a total of 17 people, six of whom had not yet been identified.

Some Israeli commentators delivered the first criticisms of Mossad today , saying the operation was beginning to look like a blunder. One even called on the Mossad chief, Meir Dagan, to resign and suggested the incident could provoke a diplomatic row with Britain over the use of forged British passports.

[snip]

Sir Menzies Campbell, the former Liberal Democrat leader who is also a member of the Commons foreign affairs committee, said Israel's ambassador in the UK should be summoned to the Foreign Office immediately.

"If the Israeli government was party to behaviour of this kind it would be a serious violation of trust between nations," he said. "If legitimate British passport holders were put at risk it would be a disgrace. Given the current speculation, the Israeli government has some explaining to do and the ambassador should be summoned to the Foreign Office to do so in double-quick time."

[snip]

However, another Ha'aretz columnist, Amir Oren, said there were now "enormous question marks" over the operation and said the Mossad chief, Meir Dagan, who he described as "belligerent and heavy-handed," should resign. He said the case would likely bring a diplomatic crisis for Israel and added: "Even if whoever carried out the assassination does reach some kind of arrangement with the infuriated western nations, it still has an obligation to its own citizens."http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/17/avigdor-lieberman-israel-mossad-killing

There are some interesting questions over this:

1) was it Israel? (Everyone seems to think it's pretty likely)

2) Are these sort of assassinations ever justified?

3) Is the UK government reaction re passports hypocritical? After all I find it hard to believe no UK spies ever travel on faked foreign passports....

4) The reaction of Dubai - which has been to as publicly as possible to blow the cover of the (potential) spies. I thought these things were normally done behind closed doors with a certain tacit tit-for-tat agreement....

Anyway, everyone loves a good spy story (apart from perhaps the chap who was murderered.....)

Discuss :)

[andyandy]

can I just check the pulse on JREF....a thread on Israel, Hamas and extra-judicial murder, and no replies in 2 hours.....

What's going on? :D

[Praktik]

Happened to us too - Mossad used Canadian passports and it caused a bit of a fuss here.

Too busy to find a link now but I will later and add it to the thread.

[Bikewer]

The NPR report this morning on Morning Edition shows the thing as being even more convoluted. The Israelis say that the identities of their Mossad agents were stolen....
Dubai authorities have announced the arrest of a fellow in connection...He's apparently with Hamas.
The article pointed out the ongoing ill-will between Fatah and Hamas as well...

Then there's the question I imagine all those dirt-poor Palestinians should be asking, "why was this guy checking into a luxury hotel in Dubai?"

[Taz]

Quite an interesting story. I say interesting because I'm not one to cry at the death of a terrorist, or to complain that in a clean hit which injured no one else they committed the the crime of using fake passports. We've seen far messier anti-terrorist operations if indeed it even was one.

I just watched the Lateline vodcast according to which Dubai has arrested two Palestinians over the murder. They also speculated about whether an intelligence agency was behind the operation and the fact that there was so much clear CCTV footage led them to doubt that. Would an intelligence agency be prepared to blow the cover of at least 11 operatives in a single operation? It was also mentioned elsewhere that he was an arms dealer and arms dealers often have many enemies.

Now if the Mossad was behind this, its success will depend on whether or not those people are identified. If not, I would consider that a success if they can avoid a diplomatic row. But in a humanistic sense, I still feel that using false British passports is better for a clean hit than killing him in Gaza where they risk collateral damage.

[andyandy]

The NPR report this morning on Morning Edition shows the thing as being even more convoluted. The Israelis say that the identities of their Mossad agents were stolen....
Dubai authorities have announced the arrest of a fellow in connection...He's apparently with Hamas.
The article pointed out the ongoing ill-will between Fatah and Hamas as well...

Then there's the question I imagine all those dirt-poor Palestinians should be asking, "why was this guy checking into a luxury hotel in Dubai?"

The trouble is we might never get to the bottom of it - there will be all sorts of "unnamed sources" spreading all sorts of rumours on behalf of their various paymasters. If they are spies I expect they're all being booked in for some hasty rescontructive surgery followed by a long vacation.....;)

[Beerina]

Is the problem the assassination, or that faked UK passports were used? If the latter, I would have a beef, even though I am not UKian. But nobody will ever know what transpired diplomatically behind the scenes. They will only see the predictable public huffing and puffing and outrage.

[andyandy]

The huff and the puff are well underway. Our Great Leader has "demanded an inquiry".....

Maybe we'll set wet lettuce Milliband on Israel's Foreign Secretary....that'll get them quaking :D

[Eddie Dane]

According to the radio here, the passports were all fakes based on real passports. And all those passports belonged to people that at some time been to Israel.

Doesn't that indicate that an Israeli agency is responsible?
Would some other organisation actually go through the trouble of stealing identities of people who'd at one time visited Israel?

Here's footage from the hotel's security cameras. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTPzBx1zIFQ)

[Donal]

Is that the only common thread?

Does forging a passport of some that can be traced back to you make more sense than just inventing an identity?

[Taz]

According to the radio here, the passports were all fakes based on real passports. And all those passports belonged to people that at some time been to Israel.

Doesn't that indicate that an Israeli agency is responsible?
Would some other organisation actually go through the trouble of stealing identities of people who'd at one time visited Israel?


Given how easy it is to procure stolen passports on the black market, I highly doubt that the Mossad would make such a glaring mistake of only using people connected to Israel if it was an Israeli operation.
If you consider that there were at least 11 people involved in the hit itself I think with that many resources they would have done a better job than leaving such obvious clues.

One thing that about Israel that runs contrary to what conspiracy theorists make out about it, is that they have a difficult job keeping their own operatives from publicly divulging the details about major operations. If this is an Israeli operation, I would put a maximum of 2-5 years before there are the usual leaks via anonymous sources to British papers.

But I really can't understand the calls for a British investigation. I mean to think that somehow they contributed albeit unwillingly to the death of a terrorist, they should be patting themselves on the back.

[Eddie Dane]

Given how easy it is to procure stolen passports on the black market, I highly doubt that the Mossad would make such a glaring mistake of only using people connected to Israel if it was an Israeli operation.
If you consider that there were at least 11 people involved in the hit itself I think with that many resources they would have done a better job than leaving such obvious clues.

One thing that about Israel that runs contrary to what conspiracy theorists make out about it, is that they have a difficult job keeping their own operatives from publicly divulging the details about major operations. If this is an Israeli operation, I would put a maximum of 2-5 years before there are the usual leaks via anonymous sources to British papers.

But I really can't understand the calls for a British investigation. I mean to think that somehow they contributed albeit unwillingly to the death of a terrorist, they should be patting themselves on the back.

I agree that using passports that are all connected to Israel would be stupid.
Assuming that the info is correct and all the passports are really connected to Israel, how would a non -Israeli organisation actually get eleven passports connected to it? How would they know if a stolen passport belonged to someone who'd at one time visited Israel?

Let's hang on and see if this is actually correct and didn't come from Hezbollah or something.

Then there are some other things that stand out (I don't claim any expertise, BTW).

ELEVEN people? Is this some kind of job-creation plan from Mossad?
Getting caught on CCTV cameras?

If this is Mossad, some spy handler is not getting a Hanukkah bonus this year.

[commandlinegamer]

According to the radio here, the passports were all fakes based on real passports. And all those passports belonged to people that at some time been to Israel.

Doesn't that indicate that an Israeli agency is responsible?
Would some other organisation actually go through the trouble of stealing identities of people who'd at one time visited Israel?

Here's footage from the hotel's security cameras. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTPzBx1zIFQ)

It could indicate that someone wants Israel to appear to be responsible. It could indicate that Israel wants to appear to be a patsy. Who knows? I don't think the information so far points clearly to any particular agency's or country's involvement.

[geni]

Given how easy it is to procure stolen passports on the black market, I highly doubt that the Mossad would make such a glaring mistake of only using people connected to Israel if it was an Israeli operation.
If you consider that there were at least 11 people involved in the hit itself I think with that many resources they would have done a better job than leaving such obvious clues.

Depends on how much time they had to plan. The other issue is that they may have been caught by advancing technology.

20 years ago you think Daubi had that level of CCTV coverage? Throw in the skills needed to put all the bits together and it's only fairly recently that the operation would have hit such issues.


But I really can't understand the calls for a British investigation. I mean to think that somehow they contributed albeit unwillingly to the death of a terrorist, they should be patting themselves on the back.

Because it makes life more difficult for real british passport holders if countries start think that they might be mossad agents.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

can I just check the pulse on JREF....a thread on Israel, Hamas and extra-judicial murder, and no replies in 2 hours.....

What's going on? :D

You misspelled "MOSSAD" (two S's, not one) in the title.

If members of the usual gang of idiots are not people but automated scripts, then your thread title would have effectively been invisible to them (assuming they are programmed only to recognize proper spellings of key words).

[geni]

I agree that using passports that are all connected to Israel would be stupid.
Assuming that the info is correct and all the passports are really connected to Israel, how would a non -Israeli organisation actually get eleven passports connected to it? How would they know if a stolen passport belonged to someone who'd at one time visited Israel?

Let's hang on and see if this is actually correct and didn't come from Hezbollah or something.

Daubi is sunni Hezbollah are shia. They also have rather different aproaches to the western world.


Then there are some other things that stand out (I don't claim any expertise, BTW).

ELEVEN people? Is this some kind of job-creation plan from Mossad?


Useful to have reserves on hand if things go wrong.


Getting caught on CCTV cameras?


Hard to avoid. The trick with CCTV is less hiding from it (which may be near imposible) and more makeing sure that whoever is going to look at the tapes has no idea where to look.


If this is Mossad, some spy handler is not getting a Hanukkah bonus this year.

Depends. They may have decided it was worth the pics getting out in return for removing the target.

[Eddie Dane]

Depends. They may have decided it was worth the pics getting out in return for removing the target.

I don't know. You don't get people like this from a temp agency. Their passport photos are out. they may just have become useless for this kind of operation.

AFAIK there is already software that can pick out a person from a crowd, even in disguise. Based on the unique distance between eyes-nose-mouth if I'm not mistaken. (saw it on TV, don't know what the software is called).

Advancing technology will make stuff like this very difficult to do.

They could have hit him in the street. But that would have been near impossible. Timing, witnesses, knowing where he was going, getting away and what not.

Maybe you are right. They knew where he was at this point in time and used the opportunity.

[Eddie Dane]

Oh, and if they had not first met up the mall, in full view of the CCTV, and then had one member walk off to put on a disguise. Would they even have been connected?

seems like they were more exposed than they had to be.

[commandlinegamer]

According to Foreign Minister Israel would not confirm or deny any such operation:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8520247.stm

[fuelair]

I'm surprised there isn't a thread on this (or if there is I've missed it :))

Big news in the UK because false UK passports were used.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/17/avigdor-lieberman-israel-mossad-killing

There are some interesting questions over this:

1) was it Israel? (Everyone seems to think it's pretty likely)

2) Are these sort of assassinations ever justified?

3) Is the UK government reaction re passports hypocritical? After all I find it hard to believe no UK spies ever travel on faked foreign passports....

4) The reaction of Dubai - which has been to as publicly as possible to blow the cover of the (potential) spies. I thought these things were normally done behind closed doors with a certain tacit tit-for-tat agreement....

Anyway, everyone loves a good spy story (apart from perhaps the chap who was murderered.....)

Discuss :)

For #1, don't really care.

For#2. Yes - as long as the wrong people are not hit. But only against Bad Guys. If the Bad Guys do it, find and slowly eviscerate them.

For #3: Unfortunately, yes. Passports of real people who might be hunted/harmed/killed by the rectum breathers should never be used. Passports can easily be done for complete fake.

For #4. : Dubai has reason to fear Hamass and similar murderers if it does not at least look annoyed.

For #5: Actually, it wasn't murdered, it was executed for it's crimes against actual people.

Hope this helps - and note, it is not completely supportive of whoever did the basically good deed.

[geni]

I don't know. You don't get people like this from a temp agency. Their passport photos are out. they may just have become useless for this kind of operation.

Looking at their ages that was likely to be the case in a few years anyway. At least one theory doing the rounds was that this was the instructors carying out a rather hastily thrown together hit.

[Taz]

Looking at their ages that was likely to be the case in a few years anyway. At least one theory doing the rounds was that this was the instructors carying out a rather hastily thrown together hit.

A pretty silly theory too. Hits don't happen every day, they're not something to take casually. Israel would have learned their lesson from Jordan several years back about how risky such operations are in Arab countries.
And well trained operatives are not a dime a dozen. You don't just decide to get rid of a bunch of them like that in one go.

Depends on how much time they had to plan. The other issue is that they may have been caught by advancing technology.

20 years ago you think Daubi had that level of CCTV coverage? Throw in the skills needed to put all the bits together and it's only fairly recently that the operation would have hit such issues.

Let me get this straight: The Mossad are a couple of decades behind the times and are were not aware of CCTV's throughout Dubai? That's hardly likely.

Useful to have reserves on hand if things go wrong.

You don't want have a bunch of extra people in a foreign country particularly an antagonistic one during such an operation. It increases the probability of things going wrong. All you need is one person to do one stupid thing and the operation is blown.


I'm starting to think that if this was Israel, there will be a pretty big inquiry into this and we'll all find out pretty soon.

[Thunder]

Looks like even the Israelis think it was a Mossad operation. A bungled one at that:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_dubai_hamas_slaying;_ylt=Ase3f45Ao6lEX6qA3DvcJ5 8Eq594;_ylu=X3oDMTNiOWxpMWZzBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMj E3L21sX2R1YmFpX2hhbWFzX3NsYXlpbmcEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBv cHVsYXIEY3BvcwM3BHBvcwM3BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3Rvcmllcw RzbGsDaXNyYWVsaXNjb252

[geni]

A pretty silly theory too. Hits don't happen every day, they're not something to take casually. Israel would have learned their lesson from Jordan several years back about how risky such operations are in Arab countries.

You've got someone on your target list that you haven't been able to locate for years. At short notice you get a fix on their location that is good for a week. Either you through together an operation or you accept you are going to have to wait years again.


And well trained operatives are not a dime a dozen. You don't just decide to get rid of a bunch of them like that in one go.

Which is again where the instructors theory kicks in. It's not so much a problem if your instructor's identerties become compromised.



Let me get this straight: The Mossad are a couple of decades behind the times and are were not aware of CCTV's throughout Dubai? That's hardly likely.

CCTV on it's own means nothing. The ability to put together CCTV evidence to the extent that the Dhabi authorities have shown is even today quite impressive.


You don't want have a bunch of extra people in a foreign country particularly an antagonistic one during such an operation. It increases the probability of things going wrong. All you need is one person to do one stupid thing and the operation is blown.

Depends on the situation. If you've got time then yes a Ramón Mercader style lone agent can do the job. If you have a large existing network then things like the Georgi Markov can again be done by one person. Mossad would like have lacked both allies and an existing network in Dhabi. With a short timeframe a large team may well have been needed to gather information and make changes of plan on the fly.


I'm starting to think that if this was Israel, there will be a pretty big inquiry into this and we'll all find out pretty soon.

While Dhabi appears to have a little more information than initialy released no one else appears to know anything nor has any way of getting info out of isreal.

[Donal]

It's not so much a problem if your instructor's identerties become compromised.

How do you figure? An instructor is usually already accomplished in his/her particular field. In the intelligence field, that person would also have access to lots of sensitive information. I'd want to keep them out of the public.

[ravdin]

This team looks like a bunch of amateurs compared to the Mossad agents who captured Adolf Eichmann in Buenos Aires and smuggled him back to Israel.

[Vic Vega]

Whoever did it deserves a round of applause, regardless of who it was.

[Eddie Dane]

This team looks like a bunch of amateurs compared to the Mossad agents who captured Adolf Eichmann in Buenos Aires and smuggled him back to Israel.

I dunno.

They located him, killed him and got out of the country.
CCTV cameras change the game considerably.

The passport thing is beyond stupid. I can imagine Mossad -or any agency- using these kinds of passports for low level stuff. Travelling around. But not for such a potentially high profile operation. My latest information is that seven of the passports connected to Israel. Not all, as I stated earlier.

The number of people may have been necessary to follow the guy around and switch often. Their information was apparently not so detailed that they knew his room number.

[JihadJane]

They could have hit him in the street. But that would have been near impossible.


Weren’t there, reportedly, signs of torture on the body?

If so, that might require a little privacy.




For#2. Yes - as long as the wrong people are not hit. But only against Bad Guys. If the Bad Guys do it, find and slowly eviscerate them.


Is this sarcasm?

[Skeptic]

Weren’t there, reportedly, signs of torture on the body?

Not likely, but one can hope.

[Taz]

The saddest part of all this is that Dubai are playing the law-abiding cops here.

Hey listen here Dubai, if you don't like murder why the hell do you allow a terrorist leader to do his business freely in your country?

[geni]

How do you figure? An instructor is usually already accomplished in his/her particular field. In the intelligence field, that person would also have access to lots of sensitive information. I'd want to keep them out of the public.

Because they don't ever need to leave Israel again.

[Moss]

Our (Germany's) government now bungles in in the chorus. One guy had a German passport it seems.
I'm totally undecided on whether or not it was really Israel/the Mossad.
The whole operation sounds so strange and amateurish. It makes me wonder whether or not this is a false flag thing to direct a lot of diplomatic brouhaha towards Israel.
But then again it may be a totally bungled Mossad operation.
it could really go either way so I'll reserve judgment until there is more info. (And maybe even that will not solve anything.)

[JihadJane]

Middle East expert, Robert Fisk, comments:

"Collusion. That's what it's all about. ...

... Collusion is a word the Arabs understand. It speaks of the 1956 Suez War, when Britain and France cooperated with Israel to invade Egypt. Both London and Paris denied the plot. They were lying. But for an Arab Gulf country which suspects its former masters (the UK, by name) may have connived in the murder of a visiting Hamas official, this is apparently now too much."

Britain's Explanation is Riddled with Inconsistencies. It's Time to Come Clean (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24753.htm)

[geni]

Weren’t there, reportedly, signs of torture on the body?

Nope. Official Dubai statments suggest taser followed by suffication. Rumors of other methods are around but nothing suggesting anything other than a clean kill.

[geni]

Middle East expert, Robert Fisk, comments:

"Collusion. That's what it's all about. ...

... Collusion is a word the Arabs understand. It speaks of the 1956 Suez War, when Britain and France cooperated with Israel to invade Egypt. Both London and Paris denied the plot. They were lying. But for an Arab Gulf country which suspects its former masters (the UK, by name) may have connived in the murder of a visiting Hamas official, this is apparently now too much."

Britain's Explanation is Riddled with Inconsistencies. It's Time to Come Clean (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24753.htm)

And Ireland fits into this how? In any case it's doubtful that the UK has had a civilian assination brance able to operate outside UK turf since 15 January 1946.

[JihadJane]

And Ireland fits into this how? In any case it's doubtful that the UK has had a civilian assination brance able to operate outside UK turf since 15 January 1946.

:confused:

[Thunder]

Israel really does have a knack for pissing off its friends.

couldn't they have used estonian and bulgarian passports instead?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Middle East expert, Robert Fisk, comments:

Fisk is a 9/11 truther, any opinion he has on the middle-east is automatically null and void.

[dudalb]

Middle East expert, Robert Fisk, comments:

"Collusion. That's what it's all about. ...

... Collusion is a word the Arabs understand. It speaks of the 1956 Suez War, when Britain and France cooperated with Israel to invade Egypt. Both London and Paris denied the plot. They were lying. But for an Arab Gulf country which suspects its former masters (the UK, by name) may have connived in the murder of a visiting Hamas official, this is apparently now too much."

Britain's Explanation is Riddled with Inconsistencies. It's Time to Come Clean (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24753.htm)

Like Robert Fisk is a real reliable source on the Mid East. He hates Israel, and has been a long time apologists for Islamic Extremism.

[Donal]

Because they don't ever need to leave Israel again.

You don't know that. Besides, their security within Israel would still be at stake.

[Taz]

Middle East expert, Robert Fisk, comments:


There's nothing at all expert about Robert Fisk except justifying terror.

His strategy is one oft employed by conspiracy theorists. Find one example of a real conspiracy, and turn into some kind of official government policy:

I'm suspicious 9/11 was US government attack. Why? Operation Northwoods.

[geni]

You don't know that. Besides, their security within Israel would still be at stake.

Who in Isreal is going to go after a mossad member?

[scissorhands]

Whoever it was that killed him, I hope he suffered.

[fuelair]

Weren’t there, reportedly, signs of torture on the body?

If so, that might require a little privacy.




Is this sarcasm?

When I speak about terrorists I may be vicious (I do not like them, I want them dead. This is an area I have no sense of humor in at all. It applies to the Stern Gang as well as Hamas, the IRA as well as Koresh followers, street gangs and mafia - any mafia, Shining Path, etc. etc.) but not sarcastic. There are good guys and bad guys - and although it is possible Hizbollah killed a Hamas and I would be fine with that (bad guys killing bad guys is always ok)...... Good guys do not go out to randomly but purposively kill civilians nor do they hide behind civilians.

[geni]

Israel really does have a knack for pissing off its friends.

couldn't they have used estonian and bulgarian passports instead?

A bunch of Estonian and Bulgarians turning up in Daubi migh have raised eyebrows. Western europeans on the other hand are pretty common there. The other issue is that the age of the agents would put there recruitment pre the fall of the Soviet Union so they are unlikely to speak Bulgarian.

[JihadJane]

When I speak about terrorists I may be vicious (I do not like them, I want them dead. This is an area I have no sense of humor in at all. It applies to the Stern Gang as well as Hamas, the IRA as well as Koresh followers, street gangs and mafia - any mafia, Shining Path, etc. etc.) but not sarcastic. There are good guys and bad guys - and although it is possible Hizbollah killed a Hamas and I would be fine with that (bad guys killing bad guys is always ok)...... Good guys do not go out to randomly but purposively kill civilians nor do they hide behind civilians.


No, Good Guys and Bad Guys is baby language and meaningless.

The victor defines history.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

No, Good Guys and Bad Guys is baby language and meaningless.

The victor defines history.

Is it safe now to Godwin this thread?

[Profanz]

So who here is apologizing for Israel yet again? No matter what they do. Who the hell is anyone trying to kid here?

[Drudgewire]

Looks like even the Israelis think it was a Mossad operation. A bungled one at that


Target neutralized, any bungling beyond that is a non-starter.:cool:

[bigjelmapro]

Happened to us too - Mossad used Canadian passports and it caused a bit of a fuss here.
Attaining illegal passports = hitsquad? Nice one.

[bigjelmapro]

This sounds more of a Russian mob hit for Hamas potentially changing its arms suppliers. Several Palestinians have been detained as well and since Hamas were the only ones who knew the exact itinerary of Mabhouh since he was travelling under a false passport himself, it sounds to me either a mob hit or an internal power struggle between Palestinian factions, both of which are nothing new.

Doubt this is mossad since several real names of immigrants in Israel were used, apparently ~12 people were used to strangle a guy in his hotel room (none of the footage shows any of this), and apparently all of these people got caught on cctv only hours after his death.

And yet Dubai police are 99% sure it was mossad without a shred of evidence. And the international media is right behind this CT.

An interesting angle as well: http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001090.html

[bigjelmapro]

According to the radio here, the passports were all fakes based on real passports. And all those passports belonged to people that at some time been to Israel.

Correction, were in Israel during this incident. There's a few people, 1 of which had their middle name wrong on the forged passport, residing within Israel being around 10-20 year 'olim' or immigrants.


Doesn't that indicate that an Israeli agency is responsible?

Indicates that possibly a person within a government agency in Israel (possibly) was involved in giving out information of these real people's names used. All that is needed is to pay off the right person. As for the Russian mob angle, there's plenty of Russians working in every government agency in Israel.


Would some other organisation actually go through the trouble of stealing identities of people who'd at one time visited Israel?

Its working quite effectively isn't it? Its a simple tactic of scapegoating.

Here's footage from the hotel's security cameras.
What I found funny is the guy who changed into his disguise at the actual hotel bathroom. Classic.

[Skeptic]

To point out the obvious, it is a botched job if the killers get caught or the target escaped. The risk of the squad being exposed AFTER the attack, or of diplomatic stress in that case, had surely been factored into the decision, since the man was a very valuable target, responsible for the death of many Israelies. Perhaps the diplomatic pressure was underestimated, but that's another issue.

The whole thing reminds me of the bombing of the Osirak nuclear reactor: the whole world is OUTRAGED at ISRAELI AGRESSION, but, when asked, it's hard to find a single person, including among the outraged, who has anything but praise to the way the operation was carried out or at the result: the end of Iraq's nuclear program, or the death of a mass-murdering scum.

As for claims of "double standard", WHAT double standard? Israel, if indeed it did it, did nothing wrong: the price (using fake passports) was, morally speaking, well worth the result (killing a mass murderer of innocents). Nowhere have I've heard anybody claim that ONLY Israel has a right to act this way. If the CIA tomorrow assassinated bin Laden with a hit squad using Israeli passports, would Israel complain? Maybe pro forma, for appearance's sake, but the vast majority of Israelies would be well pleased and consider the use of fake Israeli passport a price well worth paying. Would Israelies want it to be a general rule for secret services to assassinate murderous terrorists even if they use fake passports to do so? You bet!

As for those who claim "there is no 'good' or 'bad', those are childish distinctions", they don't believe it themselves. If they did, they would not condemn anybody, now would they -- if this murderous Hamas terrorist was not really bad, neither were his killers. The truth is these folks think that Israel, the USA, and the west are BAD, while Iran, Hamas, Hizbullah, etc., are GOOD. Only when asked, "how can you defend such scum"? do they momentarily pretend there is "no good and bad", out of embarrasment, and then go back to claiming how bad and evil and awful Israel / the USA / the west are.

Finally, for those who claim the assassins were extra-judicial torturing (not likely, unfortunately) murderous thugs, I say, we need many more of them. Let every Hamas member live in fear of illegal murder and torture. I would send these murderous torturing illegal assassins a bunch of flowers and a card congratulating them for a job well done... if I knew their address.

[richardm]

the assassins were extra-judicial torturing (not likely, unfortunately)

If there was evidence of torture I'd have thought that would argue even more strongly against Mossad involvement. There's a time and a place for torturing people, and a Dubai hotel room probably isn't one of them. Get in, kill the target then get out sharpish would be more the style I'd expect from professionals.

[Eddie Dane]

Side issue:

The theory is that this guy got tazered and then suffocated (plastic bag?) by the female member of the group. Who may have gained access to his room by posing as a maid.

Are tazers actually so powerful and it's effects so reliable that this is likely?

I've heard of people getting tazered and not going down, but getting very angry and stomping the person with the tazer. Some self defense instructors are against the use of stun guns and such because their use may backfire big time. Any informed opinions about the effectiveness of stun guns and tazers?

[JihadJane]

Is it safe now to Godwin this thread?

Who are the "Good Guys"?

[Taz]

So who here is apologizing for Israel yet again? No matter what they do. Who the hell is anyone trying to kid here?


So here we are, finding some trivial excuse to condemn Israel yet again. They killed a terrorist leader, but oh noz those evil people used European passports. :jaw-dropp


It's better if Israel would just take out a house in Pakistan. The US never seems to get criticized for that, I bet that would make you happy. :confused:

And while we're at it, let's criticize Israel even before we know it was them.

[JihadJane]

Aw, poor Israel!

[geni]

To point out the obvious, it is a botched job if the killers get caught or the target escaped. The risk of the squad being exposed AFTER the attack, or of diplomatic stress in that case, had surely been factored into the decision, since the man was a very valuable target, responsible for the death of many Israelies. Perhaps the diplomatic pressure was underestimated, but that's another issue.

No US passports used. That suggests diplomatic pressure was considered.


As for claims of "double standard", WHAT double standard? Israel, if indeed it did it, did nothing wrong: the price (using fake passports) was, morally speaking, well worth the result (killing a mass murderer of innocents).

"innocents" interesting concept. I think the prase you were looking for would have been "civilians".


Nowhere have I've heard anybody claim that ONLY Israel has a right to act this way. If the CIA tomorrow assassinated bin Laden with a hit squad using Israeli passports, would Israel complain? Maybe pro forma, for appearance's sake, but the vast majority of Israelies would be well pleased and consider the use of fake Israeli passport a price well worth paying.

Isreali passports are worth nothing in that context since they throw up too many red flags. European countries do not want their passports to face the same issues.


Would Israelies want it to be a general rule for secret services to assassinate murderous terrorists even if they use fake passports to do so? You bet!

Not really. For example I doubt that isreal would be too happy about it's passports being used in operations to kill off naxalites and thus puting India's small jewish population at further risk.

Or historicaly when the regular british forces were trying to shut down the Stern gang their actions were not exactly supported.

Your position becomes more supportable if you limit it to radical islamic troublemakers.


Finally, for those who claim the assassins were extra-judicial torturing (not likely, unfortunately) murderous thugs, I say, we need many more of them. Let every Hamas member live in fear of illegal murder and torture. I would send these murderous torturing illegal assassins a bunch of flowers and a card congratulating them for a job well done... if I knew their address.

Err the goups most likely to torture Hamas members are Fatah and some of the small groups who don't think hamas are exteme enough. I wouldn't personaly encourage them.

[WildCat]

So who here is apologizing for Israel yet again? No matter what they do. Who the hell is anyone trying to kid here?
How is it any different than this (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/15/world/africa/15raid.html?_r=1)?

[beachnut]

So who here is apologizing for Israel yet again? No matter what they do. Who the hell is anyone trying to kid here?
No need to apologize for Israel. What is a terrorist doing in a classy hotel? Maybe he ran off with Hamas funds and Hamas killed him because they can't fund kid-bombs anymore.

Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh must of stolen Hamas funds which were used to buy families kids to be suicide bombers and Hamas actually did something that take real planning and they can blame Israel.

Did Israel take action, or Hamas fake it?

[morgasm]

Best. Murder. Ever.

[Eddie Dane]

Best. Murder. Ever.

I dunno.

Caligula and Mussolini spring to mind.

[MikeMangum]

Looks like even the Israelis think it was a Mossad operation. A bungled one at that:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_dubai_hamas_slaying;_ylt=Ase3f45Ao6lEX6qA3DvcJ5 8Eq594;_ylu=X3oDMTNiOWxpMWZzBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMj E3L21sX2R1YmFpX2hhbWFzX3NsYXlpbmcEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBv cHVsYXIEY3BvcwM3BHBvcwM3BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3Rvcmllcw RzbGsDaXNyYWVsaXNjb252

I don't know if you didn't even read the link you posted or if it changed on you, but the article is now exactly the opposite of what you portrayed.

Title: Hamas: Suspects in Dubai killing include Fatah men

[Skeptic]

"innocents" interesting concept. I think the prase you were looking for would have been "civilians".

Because we all know all Israelis are guilty of something, don't we? Babies included, I suppose. Certainly Hamas doesn't make much of a distinction.

Your position becomes more supportable if you limit it to radical islamic troublemakers.Fine, then. Limit it to radical Islamists. Do I think it's a good thing for radical Islamists leaders to be assassinated? You bet. By any country which cares to do so? Indeed. Is it a good thing only for Israel to do? Not at all. It is a good thing for the world in general to do, except for the radical Islamists themselves -- most of all (looking at the list of those they kill) good for other Muslims, the Islamists' most common target.

For this last reason, I think most people in Dubai are not as outraged and shocked as they claim to be. I mean, suppose some group of elite ninjas using fake passports had completely disregarded American sovereignity, inflitrated an American prison, and assassinated without trial an American citizen ... Charlie Manson. Would the average American be really that upset? Not likely...


Err the goups most likely to torture Hamas members are Fatah and some of the small groups who don't think hamas are exteme enough. I wouldn't personaly encourage them.They don't need encouragement.

[Skeptic]

I dunno.

Caligula and Mussolini spring to mind.

Well, it's in the top ten, anyway.

[Donal]

Who in Isreal is going to go after a mossad member?

One of the people that keep getting in there and attacking Israelis? You may not have heard about this, but apparently, some fellows within their borders aren't too happy with Israel. I'm willing to bet they'd like to know who trains Mossad agents.

Of course, you also assume that the instructors or their families would ever travel outside of Israel.

[MaGZ]

The huff and the puff are well underway. Our Great Leader has "demanded an inquiry".....

Maybe we'll set wet lettuce Milliband on Israel's Foreign Secretary....that'll get them quaking :D

Since Milliband is a Jew, don't expect much outrage from him.

[MaGZ]

Depends on how much time they had to plan. The other issue is that they may have been caught by advancing technology.

20 years ago you think Daubi had that level of CCTV coverage? Throw in the skills needed to put all the bits together and it's only fairly recently that the operation would have hit such issues.



Because it makes life more difficult for real british passport holders if countries start think that they might be mossad agents.


Apparently that is how they were caught. Facial recognition tied to data bases traced the passports to Israel.

[MaGZ]

Whoever did it deserves a round of applause, regardless of who it was.

Shouldn't the Palestinians in Gaza have weapons to defend themselves?

[MaGZ]

Israel really does have a knack for pissing off its friends.

couldn't they have used estonian and bulgarian passports instead?

The Israelis have focused on obtaining passports from English language countries. Apparently there is less scrutiny when these are used.

[MaGZ]

This sounds more of a Russian mob hit for Hamas potentially changing its arms suppliers. Several Palestinians have been detained as well and since Hamas were the only ones who knew the exact itinerary of Mabhouh since he was travelling under a false passport himself, it sounds to me either a mob hit or an internal power struggle between Palestinian factions, both of which are nothing new.

Doubt this is mossad since several real names of immigrants in Israel were used, apparently ~12 people were used to strangle a guy in his hotel room (none of the footage shows any of this), and apparently all of these people got caught on cctv only hours after his death.

And yet Dubai police are 99% sure it was mossad without a shred of evidence. And the international media is right behind this CT.

An interesting angle as well: http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001090.html

The Russian Mafia is made up of Russian Jews, many living in Israel. The Russian mafia is a Mossad asset.

This is one of the reasons the Israeli Art Students were targeting the DEA offices: to protect the Russian Mafia from indictments from our Justice Department.

Israeli Art Students
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Art_Students

The FBI gave the story to Fox News to run telling how the Israelis were running cover for the Russian Mafia. The story is in three or four parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

[MaGZ]

The al-Mabhouh interview

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/02/2010271441269105.html

[MaGZ]

The faces of Mossad on Interpol's most wanted list.

Pretty stupid of them to ruin their careers like that.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35435440/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

[fuelair]

No, Good Guys and Bad Guys is baby language and meaningless.

The victor defines history.Not so much - and not usually for too long. Researchers have been quite good at coming up with the real truth even after a time. For whatever reason, I think I have a pretty good grip on it for much of history and I am not weak on history compared to most. I just specialize (prostitution, pornography, criminal, persecution, libraries/media, science, warfare(stategy and tactics more than political - politics bores me)). Oddly, there are connections among them. Actually, more recently, I have also taken up sanitation and it's social consequences. I am vaguely eclectic.
And I left out food, cooking and poisons. And explosives. And (also recent) private life through history.

[fuelair]

But, I digress. There really are bad guys and good guys and all gradations in between. I am interested in the removal of the bad end of that spectrum. May be baby language to some - does not change the reality of it nor who they are. No matter who wins. Or no matter what the reasons the bad guys give for their actions.

[JihadJane]

But, I digress. There really are bad guys and good guys and all gradations in between. I am interested in the removal of the bad end of that spectrum. May be baby language to some - does not change the reality of it nor who they are. No matter who wins. Or no matter what the reasons the bad guys give for their actions.

Who are the "good guys"?

[fuelair]

Who are the "good guys"?

From my view, the people who work to eliminate the bad guys (with the caveat that bad guys who kill other bad guys have done a good deed, but they have not turned into good guys because of doing so). Specifically, here, if Fatah have done the deed as some have suggested, that does not turn them into good guys. Or, to pick a completely different situation: a group of Orangemen kneecap members of a Green family and a group of Greens kill them. A good deed has been done by the Greens but that doesn't make them good. (That's Ireland, mostly older days yet still within my lifetime). Note, I would have no problem if the/any two groups ONLY killed each other -and only the activist members of each other. As long as nobody who hasn't chosen to be activist isn't harmed I do not consider those who are activist to be good or bad. Just stupid. Unfortunately, most groups like that tend to at some point go after those who are inactive members of other groups, inactive members of their own group or just inactive supporters of the other group or investigators of the groups and that takes them from stupid to bad.

OR leave people who are not and don't want to be involved in your stupidity alone and you are fine being stupid. Harm them and you become a fair and fine target.:mad:

[WildCat]

Who are the "good guys"?
Do you mourn this guy's passing JJ?

[Thunder]

i don't mourn his passing. i never mourn the passing of a terrorist.

but, i do question the timing, method, and location of such a hit.

[Skeptic]

i don't mourn his passing. i never mourn the passing of a terrorist.

but, i do question the timing, method, and location of such a hit.

Well, I'm sorry he wasn't taken out according to your exacting specifications, Parky.

[Thunder]

Well, I'm sorry he wasn't taken out according to your exacting specifications, Parky.

oh...its not you who should be sorry. You are not the one who will suffer the possible consequences of this bungled operation.

Israel is in a PR war. And in the climate of such a war, timing and method of such operations is everything.

Perhaps, Israel is looking to lose the PR war. Israel does appear to have some masochistic tendencies.

[Skeptic]

I know, I know: how horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that Brits should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks afraid of terrorist attacks because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom they know nothing.

Of course, the real reason Brits need to be afraid of terrorist attacks is much simpler -- they're infidels, and thus condemned to dhimmitude or death by the Islamic terrorists no matter what they do -- but they don't like being reminded of it.

If those people in the faraway country just died quietly, or, if they have to fight back, not do it (God forbid) in a way that make the murderous thugs they are fighting think the Brits did anything to help them, things would be so much better.

How inconsiderate!

[Thunder]

On the other hand, every time Israel was condemned for "bungling", "using disproportionate force", "merely perpetuating the cycle of violence", "committing war crimes", "having to suffer the consequences", etc., that meant Israel had scored some significant success in the fight against terror, with the result was usually a large decrease in the number of Israeli dead.


oh...really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Ayyash#Death_and_aftermath

what happened after Israel killed Yahya Ayyash?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheik_Yassin#Palestinian

what happened after Israel killed Sheik Yassin?

your arguments are crap. proven crap.

[Skeptic]

You mean Hamas declared it will kill Jews in revenge and did? Of course it did. But then again, it declares it will kill Jews for merely existing and does that, too.

With those guys, you can either fight back and try to kill as many of them as you can, preferably the leaders, or else you can cower in the corner and hope that as long as you don't hurt them too badly, they might be content with a relatively low rate of murdering you.

Screw that. It was an excellent thing Israel killed those scum.

[Thunder]

Screw that. It was an excellent thing Israel killed those scum.

your point still stands.....debunked.

Israeli actions do in FACT lead to more Israeli deaths.

[Skeptic]

It depends. It was Israeli attempts at conciliation -- the so called Oslo "peace" process - that raised the number of Israeli terrorist deaths by roughly 10,000% or so per annum than previously. The withdrawal from Gaza, too, led to an increase of thousands of percent in the number of rocket attacks aimed at Israel.

[Thunder]

The fact remains, that Israeli assassination missions tend to lead to more Israeli deaths..and not less.

The killing of the Hamas engineer led to the deaths of more than 60 Israeli civilians.

The killing of the wheel-chair bound Sheik Yassin led to the death of an Israeli MK.

Blood brings more blood. Perhaps Israel should try arresting people instead.

what will my response be when Hamas eventually retaliates against this attack? I will simply say "blood brings more blood".

[Donal]

oh...its not you who should be sorry. You are not the one who will suffer the possible consequences of this bungled operation.

Israel is in a PR war. And in the climate of such a war, timing and method of such operations is everything.

Perhaps, Israel is looking to lose the PR war. Israel does appear to have some masochistic tendencies.


Did Israel conduct the hit?

[Skeptic]

what will my response be when Hamas eventually retaliates against this attack? I will simply say "blood brings more blood".

But what is the difference between Hamas sending suicide bombers to kill Jews anyway, and sending suicide bombers to retaliate for the attack? Merely the label. Hamas tries to send suicide bombers to kill Jews all the time, whether or not Israel killed anybody on their side.

It isn't as if Hamas might set up a successful attack and then say, "no, they haven't killed one of ours in a while, perhaps we shouldn't blow up that school bus".

The only way to stop Hamas is to make it unable, or less able, to attack in the first place.

[Skeptic]

The killing of the wheel-chair bound Sheik Yassin led to the death of an Israeli MK.

Let's see. If America could get Osama, the poor old man with bad kidneys, but the price was that one of the US congressmen would die. Would America do it? You bet it should.

[Thunder]

But what is the difference between Hamas sending suicide bombers to kill Jews anyway, and sending suicide bombers to retaliate for the attack? Merely the label. Hamas tries to send suicide bombers to kill Jews all the time, whether or not Israel killed anybody on their side.

had Israel not killed the Hamas Engineer, 60 more innocent Israelis would be alive today.

[Thunder]

Did Israel conduct the hit?

it does appear so, yes.

[Skeptic]

had Israel not killed the Hamas Engineer, 60 more innocent Israelis would be alive today.

Not likely, for two reasons:

1). Considering the number of deaths he is responsible for, it is more than likely that he would have killed as many or more if he had not been assassinated and could have continued his action.

2). The only way to say the death was because of his assassination is because Hamas claimed a certain suicide bombing or some shooting attack was "a revenge" for his death. But those are just words; Hamas tries to kill Jews all the time. It is more than likely those 60 innocent Israelies would be just as dead, only the excuse given would be different.

In any case, it takes some gall from those who enthusiastically supported the Oslo "peace" accords and the Gaza "disengagement" -- both who resulted in a bloodbath of Israelies -- to wag the finger at the "irresponsibility" of those Israelies who try to fight back out of the hellhole the "peace process" supporters dug Israel into.

[Skeptic]

it does appear so, yes.

Let us hope you're right.

[Thunder]

Not likely. Considering the number of deaths he is responsible for, it is more than likely that he would have killed as many or more if he had not been assassinated.

correct me if I am wrong, but haven't most Hamas suicide attacks been brought on by an Israeli action?

it seems that Hamas is doing the retaliating, and Israel doing the instigating.

Is Hamas' method of retaliation fair and just? of course not.

nonetheless, it is still retaliation against Israeli action.

it takes two to tango. Israel likes to deny this.

[Skeptic]

correct me if I am wrong, but haven't most Hamas suicide attacks been brought on by an Israeli action?.

Yes, they have.

The action known as "breathing".

Sure, there is always some excuse they give -- much like bin Laden keeps claiming his folks' latest blowing up of some school bus is "a revenge for the USA doing X".

But it's quite clear that in both cases the terror attack is the main thing, and would be done no matter what -- killing Jews is Hamas' raison d'etre -- and that the excuse would be found after the fact, based on whatever the papers report Israel (or the USA, or whomever the target was) did last week.

And if for some reason the USA or Israel did nothing in particular last week, then there's always the default excuse: it's all revenge for "the USA supporting Israel", or for "Palestine being occupied" (=Israel existing).

It's the same situation as with an abusive husband and a battered wife. He never beats her for no reason, does he? There's always some excuse. Following your logic, this "proves" that it's all her fault. After all, all the beatings have been the result of her doing something he didn't like, weren't they?

Surely, if she only did everything he wanted, she would not have been beaten. Or, as you put it, "it takes two to tango".

No, it doesn't! For war, as for an abusive marriage, it only takes one side to hate and want to kill the other for there to be violence, with an unending stream of excuses from the abusive thug why the other side had it coming.

[Donal]

it does appear so, yes.

Linky? All I've seen is accusations and outrage at the thought of Israel using British passports. No actual, you know, proof.

Then again, I haven't really been tracking this one.

[JihadJane]

From my view, the people who work to eliminate the bad guys (with the caveat that bad guys who kill other bad guys have done a good deed, but they have not turned into good guys because of doing so). Specifically, here, if Fatah have done the deed as some have suggested, that does not turn them into good guys. Or, to pick a completely different situation: a group of Orangemen kneecap members of a Green family and a group of Greens kill them. A good deed has been done by the Greens but that doesn't make them good. (That's Ireland, mostly older days yet still within my lifetime). Note, I would have no problem if the/any two groups ONLY killed each other -and only the activist members of each other. As long as nobody who hasn't chosen to be activist isn't harmed I do not consider those who are activist to be good or bad. Just stupid. Unfortunately, most groups like that tend to at some point go after those who are inactive members of other groups, inactive members of their own group or just inactive supporters of the other group or investigators of the groups and that takes them from stupid to bad.

OR leave people who are not and don't want to be involved in your stupidity alone and you are fine being stupid. Harm them and you become a fair and fine target.:mad:

Are Mossad "good guys"?

[Thunder]

But it's quite clear that in both cases the terror attack is the main thing, and would be done no matter what -- killing Israeli Jews is Hamas' raison d'etre -- and that the excuse would be found after the fact, based on whatever the papers report Israel (or the USA, or whomever the target was) did last week.

fixed that for ya. no need to thank me.

[fuelair]

Are Mossad "good guys"?

mostly yes. the mostly is because I have no idea if they, individually or collectively, have ever murdered someone just to be murdering someone: i.e. executed someone not responsible for harming others for giggles (Hamas, Hezbollah, IRA, Basque Seperatists, etc. as examples who do). If they have, the ones doing it are part of the bad guys. I feel the same about the US Army things that raped an Iraqui girl and then killed her and family and torched the house. I suspect you would not like seeing what I would like to do to educate them. I do not like bad guys (apologies for baby language but I am clear on this)and I do wish to see them educated. Oh, for educators, the proper term for this particular branch/style of education is Terminal Education. It comes from the point that no one properly enrolled in the program ever does whatever bad thing/things they did again. As such, it is the only 100% successful education program if the student completes the lesson.

[Skeptic]

fixed that for ya. no need to thank me.

(Sigh)

It was explained to you a million times before, parky.

Hamas wants to "only" genocide the Israeli Jews in the same sense that Hitler "only" wanted a "final solution of the Jewish problem in Europe", which, by your curious interpretation, means he had nothing against other Jews.

Quite apart from the fact that it is psychologically inconceivable for someone to wish to genocide all the Jews in one country and be totally indifferent to their existence elsewhere, both Hamas and the Nazis' charter, ideology, speeches, propaganda, TV shows, and official decelerations make it quite clear they believe in a worldwide Jewish conspiracy that controls the world, and that one blessed day God or the Muslims or the world will kill them all with the Nazis, or Hamas, enthusiastic help.

Both Hamas and the Nazis, for instance, believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are genuine; both Hitler and Hamas' minister of economics declared during a worldwide economic depression that it is all due to the fault of the system set up by "Jewish bankers" to exploit the world, starting with the Rotschilds in the 1700s.

Examples could be multiplied.

[JihadJane]

There's nothing at all expert about Robert Fisk except justifying terror.


Rubbish



mostly yes. the mostly is because I have no idea if they, individually or collectively, have ever murdered someone just to be murdering someone: i.e. executed someone not responsible for harming others for giggles (Hamas, Hezbollah, IRA, Basque Seperatists, etc. as examples who do). If they have, the ones doing it are part of the bad guys. I feel the same about the US Army things that raped an Iraqui girl and then killed her and family and torched the house. I suspect you would not like seeing what I would like to do to educate them. I do not like bad guys (apologies for baby language but I am clear on this)and I do wish to see them educated. Oh, for educators, the proper term for this particular branch/style of education is Terminal Education. It comes from the point that no one properly enrolled in the program ever does whatever bad thing/things they did again. As such, it is the only 100% successful education program if the student completes the lesson.

Mossad having planted bombs in public buildings.

I suspect you would not like seeing what I would like to do to educate them. I do not like bad guys (apologies for baby language but I am clear on this) Oh, for educators, the proper term for this particular branch/style of education is Terminal Education.

Sounds like you could be one of the "bad guys" yourself.

Mossad's executions have often strengthened the organizations they attempt to weaken with terror and decapitation.

[Thunder]

Hamas wants to "only" genocide the Israeli Jews in the same sense that Hitler "only" wanted a "final solution of the Jewish problem in Europe", which, by your curious interpretation, means he had nothing against other Jews.

you know, if you keep repeating this lie enough times, some gullible Goy might actually believe it.

i know, i know, Chas Va Shalom!!!!!!

[Skeptic]

But, JJ, you just told us there are no good guys and bad guys. So how can you now claim the Mossad (and Israel in general, and the USA) are bad guys?

[Skeptic]

you know, if you keep repeating this lie enough times, some gullible Goy might actually believe it.

i know, i know, Chas Va Shalom!!!!!!

Just because you keep denying it doesn't mean it's not true, Parky.

[Thunder]

Just because you keep denying it doesn't mean it's not true, Parky.

um....I have 16 years of precedent to back up my point of view. all you have is a silly phrase about talking trees and rocks.

[Skeptic]

um....I have 16 years of precedent to back up my point of view.

The Nazi party existed from 1919 to 1945. How many USA Jews did they kill?

None?

See: Hitler clearly had nothing against US Jews!

I have 26 years of precedent on my side -- 10 more than you do! All you have is those silly statements by Hitler and Goebbles about the "Jews controlling the USA".

And yes, that "silly statement" from the Hamas about trees and rocks going to shout to the believers "There is a Jew hiding behind me, come kill him" -- why, that would be a bit of an indication Hamas dislikes Jews in general, wouldn't it?

Hamas has a large stock of such silly statements, such as their silly statements that the Protocols are true, the Hamas minister of economics making silly statements that the economic downturn in 2008 was bound to happen with the evil Jewish Rotshilds setting up the world-controlling banks, etc., etc.

How about their silly statements about the holocaust being a hoax? That might have some anti-Jewish thingy going on there, but, it's silly, so it doesn't count. Teaching about the holocaust to Palestinian children is "marketing a lie" and a "war crime", Younis al-Astal, a Hamas religious leader, claimed.

Oh, and do you know the Jews stir revolution, colonize countries, and are to blame for WWI, WWII, control the UN, and "there isn't a war anywhere without their fingerprints on it"?

I think it's somehow hard to think Hamas means to blame "Israeli Jews" or "zionists" for, say, WWI, or the Rotshilds' banking empire, or for starting all the wars in world history -- considering the fact Israel, and for that matter zionism, did not exist (or barely did) during most of that time.

[fuelair]

But, JJ, you just told us there are no good guys and bad guys. So how can you now claim the Mossad (and Israel in general, and the USA) are bad guys?

In all fairness, that would be her using my choice of terms (one I definitely believe correct) to discuss it with me......:)

[Skeptic]

On Purim, which is next week, Jews -- children especially -- traditionally dress up in costumes (much like in Halloween).

Guess what, due to recent events, is (according to the Israeli papers, anyway) one of the most popular costumes in Israel this year...?

[Thunder]

See: Hitler clearly had nothing against US Jews!


wrong.

http://www.mitchellbard.com/pows.html

http://www.mitchellbard.com/articles/pows.html

http://www.ostns.org/memberstories/LarryRosen-POWs.shtml

[Skeptic]

wrong.

True, but Hamas had actually killed American Jews (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/usvictims.html), too.

My point, which you have proven for me, is that, like Hitler, Hamas tries to kill any Jew it can get its hand on, regardless of nationality. It limits itself to Israel in its Jew-killing for the same reason Hitler limited himself to Europe in its Jew-killing: ability.

[Thunder]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151245.html

Netanyahu authorized the Dubai assassination in January.

[Skeptic]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151245.html

Netanyahu authorized the Dubai assassination in January.

So says the paper.

But let's hope it's true.

[Thunder]

My point, which you have proven for me, is that, like Hitler, Hamas tries to kill any Jew it can get its hand on, regardless of nationality. It limits itself to Israel in its Jew-killing for the same reason Hitler limited himself to Europe in its Jew-killing: ability.

and yet, Hamas meets with Jews from Naturei Karta.

Hell, I bet I could meet with someone in NYC from Hamas, and I would be just fine.

[Thunder]

So says the paper.

But let's hope it's true.

yes. I too hope it is true. And I pray that Israel suffers the appropriate consequences for its actions.

[Skeptic]

and yet, Hamas meets with Jews from Naturei Karta.

The Nazis, too, were in the habit of meeting with the "prominent Jews" in the ghettos when they thought it was in their interest -- when it helped them in the goal of killing other Jews.

The Jewish ghetto leaders were, of course, killed like every other Jew once their usefulness was done. As noted above by the numerous quotes about the Jews by Hamas, the same fate would, if Hamas has its way, await Neturey Karta.

Hell, I bet I could meet with someone in NYC from Hamas, and I would be just fine

You could probably meet with an SS veteran, or a neo-Nazi, and be just fine. But still the Nazis' goal was the genocide of the Jews. Same as Hamas' goal.

[Thunder]

As noted above by the numerous quotes about the Jews by Hamas, the same fate would, if Hamas has its way, await Neturey Karta.

debunked



But still the Nazis' goal was the genocide of the Jews. Same as Hamas' goal.

lie. and also debunked.

[Skeptic]

yes. I too hope it is true. And I pray that Israel suffers the appropriate consequences for its actions.

Yes, we know you don't like Jews defending themselves. They must be punished for being really bad boys.

I'd buy the folks who killed this guy a beer, if I knew who they are. Even if they committed the atrocious, unspeakable crime of using a fake passport.

[Skeptic]

debunked




lie. and also debunked.

Saying "NO IT ISN'T!" every time you are faced with obvious facts that contradict your views doesn't make it so.

Read the quotes about the Jews from Hamas I've given above. I don't see any "We mean all Jews except Neturey Karta planned the first world war", "we think all Jews except Neturey Karta secretly rule the world", or "in the future the trees and rocks themselves would shout, 'there is a non-Neturey-Karta Jew hiding behind me, come and kill them" exclusion clauses, do you?

[Thunder]

Saying "NO IT ISN'T!" every time you are faced with obvious facts that contradict your views doesn't make it so.

true.

but in these two cases, both of your points have been proven wrong...long ago. and you know it.

:p

[Arcade22]

Jews/Israelis must be held to incredible high standards, but Arabs should be held to much lower standards. How come, parky?

[Thunder]

Jews/Israelis must be held to incredible high standards, but Arabs should be held to much lower standards. How come, parky?

well, I am not exactly sure what you are poorly referencing...but yes, I do hold western-style democracies to a much higher standard than Islamic theocracies and Arab-secular dictatorships.

sue me.

[Skeptic]

Jews/Israelis must be held to incredible high standards, but Arabs should be held to much lower standards. How come, parky?

Well, you two both seem to agree on ONE thing, at least: Arabs and/or Muslims are savages, no use demanding any sort of civilized behavior from them.

You, Arcade22, say so explicitly. Parky says so implicitly, by his total indifference to any atrocity perpetrated by Arabs and/or Muslims while being hypersensitive to Jewish imperfections.

[Thunder]

Parky says so implicitly, by his total indifference to any atrocity perpetrated by Arabs and/or Muslims while being hypersensitive to Jewish imperfections.

please don't lie about me. i don't appreciate it.

[Skeptic]

It's not a lie.

Let's take this very thread: Hamas claims the Jews were responsible for all the wars in history, denies the holocaust, thinks the Protocols are history. You are silent. I claim Hamas wants to kill all the Jews -- you jump in shouting, "stop lying about them!".

Now, let us suppose for the sake of the argument that it was a lie on my part. Let us assume that, just like you say, the poor dears "only" want to kill all Jews in Israel, not all Jews in the world. Is my "lie" such a huge thing -- does it in any way really "besmirch" or "libel" Hamas if I lied and claimed they want to kill 18,000,000 Jews, when they "really" only want to kill 6,000,000 or so? Shouldn't it be, as "lies" go, be somewhat of lesser consequence than Hamas' lies about the Jews, which are used to justify and encourage killing of Jews?

But you care nothing about Hamas' lies, only about my "lies". Hamas, for you, are automatons: they are inevitably "reacting" or "retaliating" to Israeli actions, and their genocidal propaganda is always just "silly quotes".

Why this indifference? It's because, for you, Hamas members are simply not full human beings. They are like children or animals: when they say something horrible, they don't really mean it, it's just "silly" propaganda; when they do something horrible, it's not really their fault, they're just "reacting".

[MaGZ]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151245.html

Netanyahu authorized the Dubai assassination in January.

Indict him and have the trial at the Hague.

[MaGZ]

So says the paper.

But let's hope it's true.

Let's hope he is brought to justice.

[MaGZ]

It's not a lie.

Let's take this very thread: Hamas claims the Jews were responsible for all the wars in history, denies the holocaust, thinks the Protocols are history. You are silent. I claim Hamas wants to kill all the Jews -- you jump in shouting, "stop lying about them!".

Now, let us suppose for the sake of the argument that it was a lie on my part. Let us assume that, just like you say, the poor dears "only" want to kill all Jews in Israel, not all Jews in the world. Is my "lie" such a huge thing -- does it in any way really "besmirch" or "libel" Hamas if I lied and claimed they want to kill 18,000,000 Jews, when they "really" only want to kill 6,000,000 or so? Shouldn't it be, as "lies" go, be somewhat of lesser consequence than Hamas' lies about the Jews, which are used to justify and encourage killing of Jews?

But you care nothing about Hamas' lies, only about my "lies". Hamas, for you, are automatons: they are inevitably "reacting" or "retaliating" to Israeli actions, and their genocidal propaganda is always just "silly quotes".

Why this indifference? It's because, for you, Hamas members are simply not full human beings. They are like children or animals: when they say something horrible, they don't really mean it, it's just "silly" propaganda; when they do something horrible, it's not really their fault, they're just "reacting".

Once Hamas and Israel supported each other when the PLO was the bad guy. But Israel in time turned her friend against her. I agree with you that Hamas wants to kill every Jew it can get their hands on. You Israelis made them that way. Look at what you did in the Gaza War.

[WildCat]

Mossad having planted bombs in public buildings.
Do you count 7 World Trade Center in that Jane?

[Thunder]

It's not a lie.


reported for personal attacks.



meanwhile, Israel's responsibility in the assassination is becoming more clear.

[fuelair]

yes. I too hope it is true. And I pray that Israel suffers the appropriate consequences for its actions.

Which would be none - except re: using passports with the names of real people who were jewish and easy to find by the bad guys.

[Skeptic]

Let's hope he is brought to justice.

If this claim is true, he certainly does deserve some kind of award or medal for doing the right thing and taking out this terrorist scum -- that would surely be just.

But I doubt Europe will cooperate.

[Skeptic]

meanwhile, Israel's responsibility in the assassination is becoming more clear.

Because the papers say so?

But again, so what? It was the right thing to do. Israel -- or any country, for that matter -- should take out mass murdering terrorist scum.

Even if the price is the horrific, terrible, inconceivable crime of an intelligence agency using fake passports.

(As opposed to what, by the way? All those other spies in the world who undoubtedly use their real name, passport, email and credit card number when out on missions to assassinate terrorists -- and no doubt fill in "killing so-and-so" on the "purpose of visit" form?)

[ponderingturtle]

Side issue:

The theory is that this guy got tazered and then suffocated (plastic bag?) by the female member of the group. Who may have gained access to his room by posing as a maid.

Are tazers actually so powerful and it's effects so reliable that this is likely?

I've heard of people getting tazered and not going down, but getting very angry and stomping the person with the tazer. Some self defense instructors are against the use of stun guns and such because their use may backfire big time. Any informed opinions about the effectiveness of stun guns and tazers?

They might well not have used a standard taser. It is not like they would have been too upset if the taser gave him a heart attack.

[Donal]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151245.html

Netanyahu authorized the Dubai assassination in January.

Wow, if those sources turn out to be legit, this is shocking.

Mossad, Hamas, and Fatah all seem to have forgotten everything that's been learned about operational security.

[bigjelmapro]

had Israel not killed the Hamas Engineer, 60 more innocent Israelis would be alive today.
Post hoc assumption.

[bigjelmapro]

meanwhile, Israel's responsibility in the assassination is becoming more clear.
Why? Because a few UK-based newspapers with a history of erroneous reporting regarding this conflict have this secret, trustworthy, unnamed source in the Mossad?

No other avenues have been explored more than this assumption of mossad's guilt, whilst many other stories, ie the guy who tried to blow up a plane with his explosive underwear, is still at the 'alleged' phase.

Fatah's connection hasn't been thoroughly investigated and neither has Hamas's intentions to change weapon suppliers away from their regular Russian mafia-based suppliers.

[Skeptic]

No other avenues have been explored more than this assumption of mossad's guilt, whilst many other stories, ie the guy who tried to blow up a plane with his explosive underwear, is still at the 'alleged' phase.

Yes, but he's not a Jew, you see.

[Thunder]

Yes, but he's not a Jew, you see.

Ah...Skeptic. Never fails to play the "Jew-card".

[Thunder]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151406.html

now Avigdor Lieberman is blaming "anti-Israeli bias" for laying the blame on Israel for the assassination.

is he going to recant this statement if it turns out Israel did INDEED kill this guy?

[Skeptic]

I'm not playing the "Jew card": unlike you, if it is the Mossad, I think Israel did nothing wrong in killing the guy, even if it used fake passports. So it is, for me, not an accusation, but a compliment, to be told it's the Mossad.

But doesn't it seem a bit strange... that whenever there is some terrorist bombing by Islamic fanatics, the first thing the BBC & co. do is shout, "let's not jump to conclusions, we don't want any Islamophobes here!", while here, without missing a beat, they all just know it's the Mossad and just know Israel must be severely condemned?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Are Mossad "good guys"?

Yes.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

and yet, Hamas meets with Jews from Naturei Karta.

Two groups of bloodthirsty extremists who think that everyone who believes differently from them deserves to die.

Hell, I bet I could meet with someone in NYC from Hamas, and I would be just fine.

You probably could.

What would that prove?

[MaGZ]

Yes.

Mossad is not the good guys. They learned of the planned 9/11 attacks and allowed them to happen, not to mention the bio-weapon terror attack they perpetrated with the anthrax letters.

[ponderingturtle]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151406.html

now Avigdor Lieberman is blaming "anti-Israeli bias" for laying the blame on Israel for the assassination.

is he going to recant this statement if it turns out Israel did INDEED kill this guy?

Easy pretend he never said that.

[The Fool]

Why? Because a few UK-based newspapers with a history of erroneous reporting regarding this conflict have this secret, trustworthy, unnamed source in the Mossad?

No other avenues have been explored more than this assumption of mossad's guilt, whilst many other stories, ie the guy who tried to blow up a plane with his explosive underwear, is still at the 'alleged' phase.

Fatah's connection hasn't been thoroughly investigated and neither has Hamas's intentions to change weapon suppliers away from their regular Russian mafia-based suppliers.
so whats the alternate theory? Russian Mafia? Splinter group of the Boy scouts of America? Maybe Mr T and the A Team?

[Eddie Dane]

Did Israel do it?

Target: prominent enemy of Israel.
Mossad has a history of assassinations.
Many passports of the hit squad are connected to Israel.
Complexity of the operation strongly suggests a government agency.
Team members look European

Sorry, but right now I don't see an alternative theory.

Unless Jordan or SA hired a European looking team and sourced its passports from Israeli identity thieves. But most nations have less of an incentive to go after this guy.

With the current information, Occam's Razor says Israel.

[Taz]

um....I have 16 years of precedent to back up my point of view. all you have is a silly phrase about talking trees and rocks.

Silly for you, but for Hamas, it's one of their founding principles.

Read this Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#The_Hamas_Charter_.281988.29) piece about the anti-Semitism inherent in Hamas. I apologize in advance that your opinions are contradicted by all the evidence.

[bigjelmapro]

Did the Russian mafia or rival Palestinian factions do it?

Target: Prominent enemy of Al Qaida in the WB/Gaza and of Palestinian factions like Fatah. Prominent enemy of the Russian mafia weapon providers. Prominent target for Jordan and Egypt. Prominent target for Lebanese factions as well (recent bombings killed Hamas members).

Al Qaida and Fatah have a history of infighting and killing eachother/rival factions off in droves.

Russian mafia has been alleged to be linked to this assassination since Hamas were looking for other weapon providers besides the Russian mafia.

Russian mafia could easily have paid off or threatened family members of Israeli naturalized citizens of Russian origin in the many Israeli government agencies to get passport identities.

With a lack of proper information, kneejerk response of blaming mossad (ie Dubai police), dubious reporting in international media poisoning the well of public opinion (ie 'expert' informants that aren't expert/informed at all), ignoring the Palestinians associated with Fatah that were detained by Dubai police, and not presenting other possible reasons why this person was killed leads to nothing other than the convenience of blaming Israel, whether they partook in this incident or not.

One curiousity is that Israel detained al-Mabhouh several times in the past. If they wanted him killed, there easily could have been an accident whilst he was imprisoned or in the process of being detained.

There are numerous inconsistencies and occum's razor doesn't apply here. Only if you present angle of Israel's incrimination does it conveniently work...

Interesting article from www.tomgrossmedia.com


MAKING THINGS UP?

Even worse was the story in yesterday's London Sunday Times by its
notoriously unreliable reporter Uzi Mahnaimi, claiming that the paper had
evidence that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had personally
ordered the hit on Mabhouh, and even providing quotes attributed to
Netanyahu when he supposedly gave such orders. The Sunday Times story was
then splashed all day as the lead story on the websites of papers like
Ha'aretz, which is so full of contempt for the elected government of Israel
that it will publish almost anything to paint Netanyahu in a bad light.

A comparable motive is true in Britain in the case of The Daily Mail, who
were determined to attack Gordon Brown's government and thus on Friday
published an anonymous story (without any author's byline, or quoted persons
in it) claiming that the British government "knew in advance that Israel was
going to use British passports". The Daily Mail claimed in its story that
they had been told this by a serving member of the Mossad. Again, this is
virtually inconceivable since serving members of the Mossad do not speak to
journalists but The Daily Mail's report was treated seriously and
rebroadcast around the world as lead item by major TV stations.

Even The New York Times and International Herald Tribune got in on the act
on Friday, telling readers that Israel has engaged in 40 Dubai-type
assassinations in recent years - again claims made without a shred of
evidence, and highly unlikely to be true.

The French media have also regurgitated the stories of the British media,
leading to French Prime Minister François Fillon, who was in Syria this
weekend, to declare - in front of President Assad of all people! - "we are
against this form of assassination; whoever orders them should be punished.
Like the British and the Germans we have asked Israeli authorities to
explain themselves."

[Eddie Dane]

Did the Russian mafia or rival Palestinian factions do it?

Target: Prominent enemy of Al Qaida in the WB/Gaza and of Palestinian factions like Fatah. Prominent enemy of the Russian mafia weapon providers. Prominent target for Jordan and Egypt. Prominent target for Lebanese factions as well (recent bombings killed Hamas members).

Al Qaida and Fatah have a history of infighting and killing eachother/rival factions off in droves.

Russian mafia has been alleged to be linked to this assassination since Hamas were looking for other weapon providers besides the Russian mafia.

Russian mafia could easily have paid off or threatened family members of Israeli naturalized citizens of Russian origin in the many Israeli government agencies to get passport identities.

With a lack of proper information, kneejerk response of blaming mossad (ie Dubai police), dubious reporting in international media poisoning the well of public opinion (ie 'expert' informants that aren't expert/informed at all), ignoring the Palestinians associated with Fatah that were detained by Dubai police, and not presenting other possible reasons why this person was killed leads to nothing other than the convenience of blaming Israel, whether they partook in this incident or not.

One curiousity is that Israel detained al-Mabhouh several times in the past. If they wanted him killed, there easily could have been an accident whilst he was imprisoned or in the process of being detained.

There are numerous inconsistencies and occum's razor doesn't apply here. Only if you present angle of Israel's incrimination does it conveniently work...

Interesting article from www.tomgrossmedia.com

Well, I'll agree with you on one thing.
Spy stories are good copy and the "experts" that get trotted out are very often wannabe spies or self-important frauds.

I've seen a whole documentary based around an interview with some guy who claimed to free-lance in the international spy world.
They interviewed this git in his crappy home in some crappy suburb of some crappy town in the UK. He made all sorts of claims about having Putin's phone number and the British secret service calling him if they needed contact details for important super secrit people. It was obvious that this was some sad weirdo with illusions of grandeur, who could not believe that a real TV crew was interviewing him as an expert. Too funny.

Oh, and do we remember David Shayler? The MI6 whistle-blower?
Trotted out as the biggest expert in town on all things spy?
Now living in a squad, too stoned to put on him mini-skirt the right way?

And I've read a book by Victor Ostrovsky. Supposedly ex-Mossad.
I'm not very convinced by him either.

[Skeptic]

Even worse was the story in yesterday's London Sunday Times by its
notoriously unreliable reporter Uzi Mahnaimi, claiming that the paper had
evidence that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had personally
ordered the hit on Mabhouh, and even providing quotes attributed to
Netanyahu when he supposedly gave such orders.

I won't be at all be surprised if the sensationalist reports are false. Certainly Netanyahu's "quotes" sound a lot more like what an actor playing the Israeli PM would say in a bad Hollywood film than what Israel's PM would really say.

[Bill Thompson]

Does anyone thing that this hit was a bad thing?

[fuelair]

Mossad is not the good guys. They learned of the planned 9/11 attacks and allowed them to happen, not to mention the bio-weapon terror attack they perpetrated with the anthrax letters.


Whoa, I truly did not realize you were a troofer offshoot. No longer need to be concerned with you in any way. Bye now.

[WildCat]

Whoa, I truly did not realize you were a troofer offshoot. No longer need to be concerned with you in any way. Bye now.
MaGZ = Missiles at Ground Zero.

[The Fool]

Did the Russian mafia or rival Palestinian factions do it?

Target: Prominent enemy of Al Qaida in the WB/Gaza and of Palestinian factions like Fatah. Prominent enemy of the Russian mafia weapon providers. Prominent target for Jordan and Egypt. Prominent target for Lebanese factions as well (recent bombings killed Hamas members).

Al Qaida and Fatah have a history of infighting and killing eachother/rival factions off in droves.

Russian mafia has been alleged to be linked to this assassination since Hamas were looking for other weapon providers besides the Russian mafia.

Russian mafia could easily have paid off or threatened family members of Israeli naturalized citizens of Russian origin in the many Israeli government agencies to get passport identities.

With a lack of proper information, kneejerk response of blaming mossad (ie Dubai police), dubious reporting in international media poisoning the well of public opinion (ie 'expert' informants that aren't expert/informed at all), ignoring the Palestinians associated with Fatah that were detained by Dubai police, and not presenting other possible reasons why this person was killed leads to nothing other than the convenience of blaming Israel, whether they partook in this incident or not.

One curiousity is that Israel detained al-Mabhouh several times in the past. If they wanted him killed, there easily could have been an accident whilst he was imprisoned or in the process of being detained.

There are numerous inconsistencies and occum's razor doesn't apply here. Only if you present angle of Israel's incrimination does it conveniently work...

Interesting article from www.tomgrossmedia.com

so come on...be brave...do you think it was the russian mafia? :)

[JihadJane]

Now living in a squad...

What's wrong with living in a squat?

[Eddie Dane]

What's wrong with living in a squat?

That the squatters have no legal right to live there and that I misspelled it?

There's more wrong with squatting than with cross-dressing (unless you steal the dresses).

[bigjelmapro]

Article worth a read. I know, its a blog, but interesting indeed as it covers the backstory regarding Dubai and its long-standing connections with terrorist groups and Iran:

Mahmoud al-Mabhouh: To Kill a Terrorist - Exclusive Analysis. (http://israelagainstterror.blogspot.com/2010/02/mahmoud-al-mabhouh-to-kill-terrorist.html)

The assassination of Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Mabhouh has touched off a great deal of outrage by the same media organizations and countries that typically ignore the murders committed by Islamic terrorists. Mahmoud al-Mabhouh was a Muslim Brotherhood member and a co-founder of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the "armed wing" of Hamas. Essentially Mahmoud was a co-founder of the terrorist sub-group responsible for more than half of the murders of Israelis that have taken place over the last decade alone.
...

[Thunder]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=169492

yup. looks like Israel is slowly admitting Dubai assassination. I wonder when Lieberman will recant his BS claim about anti-Israel bias.

while in general, I support Israel taking out terrorists who cannot be arrested and put on trial, I do think this was very bad timing...and the passport issue was handled poorly.

[Donal]

Would she really have access to that information? Is she on the Isreali version of the Senate Arms Committee or something?

I'm not asking to be a wiseguy, I actually want to know. If so, then her words have some weight. If not, then its probably just some posturing to score some right side street cred.

[WildCat]

I still want to know if MI6 spies use only genuine UK passports with their real names on them.

[Taz]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=169492

yup. looks like Israel is slowly admitting Dubai assassination. I wonder when Lieberman will recant his BS claim about anti-Israel bias.



What are you on about?

Livni said she did not know who was responsible for the killing of Mabhouh. She mocked the criticism Israel has taken from the international community for the assassination.

“What was disproportionate this time?” she asked. “Was there a disproportionate use of passports?"

[Thunder]

What are you on about?

i believe that within the next 2 months, Israel will accept responsibility for the asassination.

[Skeptic]

Judging historically, this is unlikely, since Israel rarely if ever officially admits responsibility for what the Mossad or other secret government services allegedly do.

But if they do, so what? If it is the Mossad, it's something to be proud of: a mass murdering thug getting what he deserves.

I certainly hope it is the Mossad: would be a shame if such an operation turned out to be some sort of in-house score-settling after all, for instance, or an MI6 job.

[Arcade22]

Parky why are you against this assassination?

[Alferd_Packer]

Dubai now claims that some of the suspects fled by boat to Iran.

Does Iran know this?

[Skeptic]

Iran is controlled by the Mossad! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

(I guess.)

[Doctor Evil]

Must say that the number of suspects identified by the Dubai police seem to be abnormally large. I claim no special knowledge about special operations and such, but naturally, more agents = more risk.

26+ suspects? My ******** meter starts to detect something. Still, I have no concrete information either way.

[Taz]

Must say that the number of suspects identified by the Dubai police seem to be abnormally large. I claim no special knowledge about special operations and such, but naturally, more agents = more risk.

26+ suspects? My ******** meter starts to detect something. Still, I have no concrete information either way.


When in doubt blame Israel.

[Doctor Evil]

When in doubt blame Israel.

Unconnected, though I would agree that there is no direct evidence connecting Israel to the case.

It could be a case of the Dubai police adding fictitious suspects to keep the case in the headlines. I could probably think of other possibilities as well.

[Thunder]

Parky why are you against this assassination?

posted by Moi:

"while in general, I support Israel taking out terrorists who cannot be arrested and put on trial, I do think this was very bad timing...and the passport issue was handled poorly."

learn.....to......read.

[Skeptic]

I guess what puzzles people is the bizarre disproportion between the offense and the outrage. I could see someone's outraged if the target of this "hit" if they thought it was the wrong guy; but being outraged at the use of fake passports, while thinking the "hit" itself was just fine? Does not compute.

Oh, and what does "bad timing" mean here? I'd say any time to take out a mass-murdering terrorist is a good time.

[WildCat]

This is sounding less and less like Mossad the more we learn about it. Too many people involved, too sloppy, and fleeing to Iran?

[JihadJane]

When in doubt blame Israel.


Why does everybody hate us?


That the squatters have no legal right to live there and that I misspelled it?

There's more wrong with squatting than with cross-dressing (unless you steal the dresses).

Squatting is legal in the UK.

[WildCat]

learn.....to......read.
:id:

[Thunder]

This is sounding less and less like Mossad the more we learn about it. Too many people involved, too sloppy, and fleeing to Iran?

right, plus all these accusations against Israel are CLEARLY driven by anti-Semitism.

cause....you know...Israel can do no wrong.

[WildCat]

right, plus all these accusations against Israel are CLEARLY driven by anti-Semitism.

cause....you know...Israel can do no wrong.
So it's your position that because Israel can in fact do wrong they are the prime suspects even though there's no actual evidence of Israeli involvement?

eta: Why can't it be Iran, can Iran do no wrong? Why not Fatah? Why not Russian illegal arms merchants? Etc etc.

[Taz]

So it's your position that because Israel can in fact do wrong they are the prime suspects even though there's no actual evidence of Israeli involvement?

eta: Why can't it be Iran, can Iran do no wrong? Why not Fatah? Why not Russian illegal arms merchants? Etc etc.


Because as Parky has intimated in his other threads; Israel can only do wrong.

[fuelair]

I guess what puzzles people is the bizarre disproportion between the offense and the outrage. I could see someone's outraged if the target of this "hit" if they thought it was the wrong guy; but being outraged at the use of fake passports, while thinking the "hit" itself was just fine? Does not compute.

Oh, and what does "bad timing" mean here? I'd say any time to take out a mass-murdering terrorist is a good time.

Not fake passports is the problem - the passports used the names of real people who did not authorize the use of their names - no problem if the fake passports also had fake names - the idiots of Hamass, etc. are quite stupid enough to go after the real people whose names were used on the passports - and they were not common names -as the press, based on articles in first reports cited in this thread noted some had been interviewed. That is the problem, at least by me. Otherwise I have no problem with what was done regardless of who did it.

[fuelair]

MaGZ = Missiles at Ground Zero.

mea culpa - only noticed him/her in Israel/Holocaust denial stuff

[fuelair]

I have no idea how this duped. aka mea culpa.

[The Fool]

So it's your position that because Israel can in fact do wrong they are the prime suspects even though there's no actual evidence of Israeli involvement?

eta: Why can't it be Iran, can Iran do no wrong? Why not Fatah? Why not Russian illegal arms merchants? Etc etc.Please name me a reputable source or international comentator on this issue besides the conga line of Israel supporting clowns on this forum that does not attribute this mossad cockup to mossad.

I know how you guys reeeeely reeeely like a long pointless denial phase but sheesh...russian mafia? How about Aliens have you considered suggesting it may have been aliens?

[Taz]

Well it looks like "the fool" doesn't bely his username and has joined parky in with the "Israel is guilty until proven innocent" mentality.


"Israel had nothing to do with what happened,"
according to Danny Ayalon, Israeli's deputy foreign minister. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100220/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflicthamasisrael)

[Thunder]

Well it looks like "the fool" doesn't bely his username and has joined parky in with the "Israel is guilty until proven innocent" mentality.


Stalin was never put on trial for his purported crimes. And yet, I can assume that you believe he is guilty.

correct? do you think Stalin and Hitler and Mao are unfairly labeled as criminals even though they never faced trial?

[WildCat]

Please name me a reputable source or international comentator on this issue besides the conga line of Israel supporting clowns on this forum that does not attribute this mossad cockup to mossad.
Who are the ones who are?

[WildCat]

Stalin was never put on trial for his purported crimes. And yet, I can assume that you believe he is guilty.

Difference is there's actually evidence wrt Stalin.

[Thunder]

Difference is there's actually evidence wrt Stalin.

innocent until PROVEN guilty....right????

Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Tito, never faced trial. therefore, they were not guilty of crimes.

right?????

[The Fool]

Do not make sockpuppet allegations in threads. If you feel someone is a sockpuppet, report them, along with your evidence.

[The Fool]

Who are the ones who are?
unbelievable....a trained parrot.

ok who thinks it was mossad?

let me see....

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2010/02/18/some_say_mossad_behind_dubai_hit/

and

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/world/main6219857.shtml

and christ alone knows how many others...

you guys amaze me at times.....trained parrots. Going to make this discussion a farce with a prolonged denial phase?

[Thunder]

"Israeli security officials said yesterday that they were convinced the Mossad was behind the assassination of a Hamas commander in Dubai, and they harshly criticized the spy agency for allegedly stealing the identities of its own citizens to carry out the hit."

----this doesn't mean anything.

[The Fool]

I want people to know that I have not dropped my suspicions of the boy scouts of america. They are quite capable of this sort of operation.

[Thunder]

My suspicions are with the military wing of the Salvation Army.

you know, cause, why would Israel kill this guy?

[WildCat]

unbelievable....a trained parrot.

ok who thinks it was mossad?

let me see....

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2010/02/18/some_say_mossad_behind_dubai_hit/

:boggled:

From your link:
At the same time, some observers said the Dubai evidence pointed to a setup to falsely blame Israel.
That's your slam-dunk case?

[WildCat]

"Israeli security officials said yesterday that they were convinced the Mossad was behind the assassination of a Hamas commander in Dubai, and they harshly criticized the spy agency for allegedly stealing the identities of its own citizens to carry out the hit."

----this doesn't mean anything.
Which "Israeli security officials"?

[Thunder]

Which "Israeli security officials"?

ask Steve Gutkin at the Associated Press. He wrote the article.

"The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of a government order not to discuss the case, characterized the operation as a significant Mossad bungle."

[WildCat]

ask Steve Gutkin at the Associated Press. He wrote the article.

"The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of a government order not to discuss the case, characterized the operation as a significant Mossad bungle."
Ah, anonymous sources. :rolleyes:

I thought everyone says "ZOMG!1!!1!Israeldidit!!!1!1"? Surely, you can find named experts saying they did it?

[Thunder]

Wildcat- do you believe it is more likely that the Umpa-Lumpas did it......or the 7 Dwarves?

cause, you know, there is no way that Israel did it.

[Thunder]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152161.html

hmmm...now Australia is blaming Israel.

anti-Semites everywhere huh guys?

[Kevin_Lowe]

I think it would be premature to rule out the involvement of Paddington Bear or the Wombles, despite what some anti-Semites would have you believe.

[Thunder]

clearly, we must consider the possibility, that the Dark Lord Sauron, had a hand in this.

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/8bb2fe62995fdfc8

[WildCat]

:words:
So where are these experts who are all saying Israel did it?

:words:
Where in that article does Australia accuse Israel of doing it? Can you quote it?

[WildCat]

I think it would be premature to rule out the involvement of Paddington Bear or the Wombles, despite what some anti-Semites would have you believe.

clearly, we must consider the possibility, that the Dark Lord Sauron, had a hand in this.

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/8bb2fe62995fdfc8
And you two have presented just as much evidence for these silly suspects as you have for the Mossad.

Kevin, got any evidence?

parky?

Buehler?

Anyone?

[Kevin_Lowe]

I'm with you 100% Wildcat. I admit that there are problems with the Womble theory that need to be worked out, such as how Wombles would get copies of large numbers of Israeli passports, and why the Wombles would have wanted to kill the guy. However until Israelis are convicted in a court of law I think it's clear evidence of anti-Semitism to ignore the Wombles.

[WildCat]

I'm with you 100% Wildcat. I admit that there are problems with the Womble theory that need to be worked out, such as how Wombles would get copies of large numbers of Israeli passports, and why the Wombles would have wanted to kill the guy. However until Israelis are convicted in a court of law I think it's clear evidence of anti-Semitism to ignore the Wombles.
So far you've presented as much evidence for Wombles as you have for Israelis.

Got any evidence Kevin?

[Kevin_Lowe]

So far you've presented as much evidence for Wombles as you have for Israelis.

Got any evidence Kevin?

That's the point, there is no relevant information at all! None exists! There is absolutely no reason to link this to Israel. I have no idea why people are even bringing the idea up.

[Pardalis]

So you got no evidence then.

[portlandatheist]

Blogger Michael Totten has an interesting perspective (http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/02/more-like-this-please.php) on this:
“The Goldstone Report,” Alan Dershowitz wrote in the Jerusalem Post, “suggests that Israel cannot lawfully fight Hamas rockets by wholesale air attacks. Richard Goldstone, in his interviews, has suggested that Israel should protect itself from these unlawful attacks by more proportionate measures, such as commando raids and targeted killing of terrorists engaged in the firing of rockets. Well, there could be no better example of a proportionate and focused attack on a combatant deeply involved in the rocket attacks on Israel than the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.”

Damned if they do, damned if they don't I suppose.

[Skeptic]

Blogger Michael Totten has an interesting perspective (http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/02/more-like-this-please.php) on this:


Damned if they do, damned if they don't I suppose.

Yes -- because the real crime is defending yourself.

[WildCat]

That's the point, there is no relevant information at all! None exists! There is absolutely no reason to link this to Israel. I have no idea why people are even bringing the idea up. I have no evidence, just belief.
ftfy

[Skeptic]

The problem is not in the suspicion that the Mossad did it. It's in the hysterical rage, the absolute conviction that one just knows it has to be the Mossad, the demand that Israel admit it and punish those responsible, and so on -- by people who don't even know what the word "Mossad" means without looking it up in Wikipedia.

Many people here posted claims to the effect that, "I think it is the Mossad". True or false, that's not unreasonable. What's unreasonable are the "It's the eeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Israelies doing all those illegal thing again! I hope justice is served and Israel is punished!" rage.

Punished for what? It's clear the real issue is not the use of fake passports -- that certainly wouldn't justify such foam-spluttering rage. It's the fact that Israel dares defend itself.

[Kevin_Lowe]

ftfy

Dude, when even Skeptic can't pretend that the Mossad hypothesis is unreasonable it's time to give up. Seriously.

[Taz]

You are no less boring under this latest username marc.


ETA: actually you are probably not marc, its just that you appear to get your original Ideas from the same suppliers.


Your username is the only bit of sense you speak.

[Taz]

Dude, when even Skeptic can't pretend that the Mossad hypothesis is unreasonable it's time to give up. Seriously.


I don't recall him ever saying it's unreasonable. But if you bothered to read what he wrote you would see that's not the issue.

Guilty until proven innocents again....

[Taz]

The idea that Israel did is beginning to unravel.

Hamas: Dubai assassins were likely Arabs, not Israelis (http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1146944.html)

A preliminary investigation conducted by Hamas suggests that the assassination of one of its officials in Dubai last month was likely carried out by agents of an Arab government, and not by Israel's Mossad spy agency.

[Taz]

I wonder how much evidence is necessary for people like parky and the fool to overturn their premature assumption here based on their notion that Israel should always be considered guilty in all matters.

[The Fool]

The idea that Israel did is beginning to unravel.

Hamas: Dubai assassins were likely Arabs, not Israelis (http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1146944.html)

A preliminary investigation conducted by Hamas suggests that the assassination of one of its officials in Dubai last month was likely carried out by agents of an Arab government, and not by Israel's Mossad spy agency.
Wow, they did a fairly good job of not looking like Arabs. So you will be rejecting some anonymous sourced claims by News agencies and applauding others in rather large font. Is that where you stand at the moment?

Maybe it was Australia, we are fairly sneaky...

[DC]

A preliminary investigation conducted by Hamas suggests .....

ah what a good source. :rolleyes:

[Taz]

Wow, they did a fairly good job of not looking like Arabs. So you will be rejecting some anonymous sourced claims by News agencies and applauding others in rather large font. Is that where you stand at the moment?

Maybe it was Australia, we are fairly sneaky...


Exactly which sourced claims do you have that Israel is did it?

You are trying really hard to justify your premature conviction of Israel it seems, fool.

[ponderingturtle]

"Israeli security officials said yesterday that they were convinced the Mossad was behind the assassination of a Hamas commander in Dubai, and they harshly criticized the spy agency for allegedly stealing the identities of its own citizens to carry out the hit."

----this doesn't mean anything.

Note this is a politician stating their belief, not stating that they actually had proof or direct knowledge. They might be convinced, but people are convinced no planes flew into the world trade center. I want to know what their evidence is, not that some person is convinced.

[DC]

who else had a motive?

[JihadJane]

Note this is a politician stating their belief, not stating that they actually had proof or direct knowledge. They might be convinced, but people are convinced no planes flew into the world trade center. I want to know what their evidence is, not that some person is convinced.

Not very many people are convinced no planes flew into the world trade center, though it's understandable that people might pretend there are, should they lack rational arguments.

[funk de fino]

Not very many people are convinced no planes flew into the world trade center, though it's understandable that people might pretend there are, should they lack rational arguments.

There's enough, and they are all on your side.

[ponderingturtle]

Not very many people are convinced no planes flew into the world trade center, though it's understandable that people might pretend there are, should they lack rational arguments.

The point stands that the statements made were not even from anonymous sources who knew that it was the Mosad, just ones who believed it.

It might have been, it might not have been. Honestly I don't really care.

[The Fool]

Exactly which sourced claims do you have that Israel is did it?

You are trying really hard to justify your premature conviction of Israel it seems, fool.
I don't have any power to convict. I do have the power to form an opinion based on the balance of probability....as you do.... Whats your opinion?

[Thunder]

honest question:

what are you guys gonna say if Israel admits that it killed this guy? will you apologize for accusing the world for always blaming Israel? will you admit that Israel lied about its involvement to cover it's ass...and made dishonest claims about double-standards?

however, if it turns out that Israel did indeed NOT commit this act, then I will apologize on this forum.

[Thunder]

I don't have any power to convict. I do have the power to form an opinion based on the balance of probability....as you do.... Whats your opinion?

Israel has the motive. they have an incredible precedent of taking out terrorists..like this guy. it is not out of the question to assume that Israel did this. im shocked that folks at JREF and in Israel are acting surprised and offended that folks are assuming Israel did it.

who should we assume is guilty? Taiwan? Borneo????

come on folks...get real. and stop playing the stupid games.

Israel is NOT "guilty until proven innocent". But they sure are acting like someone who is proud of what they did, but still trying to semi-convince people that they are innocent.

[Eddie Dane]

I suspect that there will be no confession by Israel. At least publicly.
If they have to confirm or dis confirm every time they are suspected of covert action, they might as well go out of the spy business.

As for the reaction from Britain, Germany etc.
What else can they do? they have to huff and puff a bit and show that they are standing up for the integrity of their country's travel documents and the safety of it's citizens.
They might even get Israel to use different passports for a couple of years in high profile operations.

[commandlinegamer]

I'm with you 100% Wildcat. I admit that there are problems with the Womble theory that need to be worked out, such as how Wombles would get copies of large numbers of Israeli passports, and why the Wombles would have wanted to kill the guy. However until Israelis are convicted in a court of law I think it's clear evidence of anti-Semitism to ignore the Wombles.

Well I think it's probable they found them on Wimbledon Common; hardly surprising given how much people litter these days.

Mind you I wouldn't have pegged Great Uncle Bulgaria as working for the Israelis; 2-1 he actually has Soviet masters.

[Thunder]

Israel wants Britain, Germany, Ireland, and Australia, to simply accept that this man had to be killed...and they don't mind their passports being used fraudulently.

Dream on...Israel.

[WildCat]

Dude, when even Skeptic can't pretend that the Mossad hypothesis is unreasonable it's time to give up. Seriously.
Be sure to quote my post where I said it was unreasonable... :rolleyes:

What is unreasonable is holding Israel as the sole suspect in this case, and not even considering other possibilities. parky and The Fool think the odds of Israel not doing it are the same as fictional characters like Sauron having done it.

Where is your evidence Kevin? parky? The Fool?

Anyone?

[WildCat]

Israel wants Britain, Germany, Ireland, and Australia, to simply accept that this man had to be killed...and they don't mind their passports being used fraudulently.

Dream on...Israel.
Guilty until proven innocent, no evidence required.

Not very skeptical, are we parky? :rolleyes:

[WildCat]

Please name me a reputable source or international comentator on this issue besides the conga line of Israel supporting clowns on this forum that does not attribute this mossad cockup to mossad.
Still waiting for your "reputable source or international comentator on this issue" who says Israel did it... I thought for sure I'd wake up this morning to see a long list of such people stating unequivocably that Israel did it.

Maybe you're just teasing me, and you'll post your list some time today?

[Thunder]

Guilty until proven innocent, no evidence required.


"Israel is NOT "guilty until proven innocent". But they sure are acting like someone who is proud of what they did, but still trying to semi-convince people that they are innocent."

reading is fundamental, Wildcat.

Stalin too was never found guilty of war crimes. Neither was Hitler or Mao or Tito. Do you chastise people for suggesting these men were guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity?

Or, do you have one standard for Israelis..and another for "Gentiles".

[WildCat]

reading is fundamental, Wildcat.
It sure is. And there's no way to read post 231 that doesn't conclude that the author, parky76, is convinced Israel did it.

[Thunder]

It sure is. And there's no way to read post 231 that doesn't conclude that the author, parky76, is convinced Israel did it.

i believe it is more than likely that Israel did it. though, of course, it is possible that Israel did it. though....until I hear something new...my money is on Israel.

I also believe Hitler is guilty of the genocide of 6 million Jews. He was never found guilty of such a crime, but I'm still willing to bet he is guilty.

I also believe Stalin is guilty of the murder of 30,000 or so Polish intellectuals and others in 1939. He was never found guilty of this crime, but my money is still on him being guilty.

[WildCat]

i believe it is more than likely that Israel did it. though, of course, it is possible that Israel did it. though....until I hear something new...my money is on Israel.

I also believe Hitler is guilty of the genocide of 6 million Jews. He was never found guilty of such a crime, but I'm still willing to bet he is guilty.

I also believe Stalin is guilty of the murder of 30,000 or so Polish intellectuals and others in 1939. He was never found guilty of this crime, but my money is still on him being guilty.
There's actually evidence for the latter 2 claims.

The first claim, not so much.

[Thunder]

There's actually evidence for the latter 2 claims.
.

oh...I see. So for non-Israelis, evidence=guilt.

I see. That's a fascinating double-standard you got there, Cat.

[WildCat]

There's actually evidence for the latter 2 claims.

The first claim, not so much.

oh...I see. So for non-Israelis, evidence=guilt.

I see. That's a fascinating double-standard you got there, Cat.
What double standard? Did you just discover some evidence parky? :rolleyes:

[Thunder]

What double standard? Did you just discover some evidence parky? :rolleyes:

um......many of the suspects just happen to be people with the names of Israeli citizens.

[WildCat]

um......many of the suspects just happen to be Israeli citizens.
They are?!!!

Can you name them?

[Thunder]

They are?!!!

Can you name them?

"A list of 11 people suspected in the assassination released last week by Dubai also included the names of six British-born Israelis, whose names appeared on forged British passports thought to have been used by the killers."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152161.html

Oooh....looks like Australia is making threats against Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=169628

"Was it really so shocking that at least seven of the 11 members of the hit squad identified by Dubai Police have the same names as olim, six of them from Britain?"

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=169000

[WildCat]

"A list of 11 people suspected in the assassination released last week by Dubai also included the names of six British-born Israelis, whose names appeared on forged British passports thought to have been used by the killers."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152161.html
:dl:

Reading comprehension FAIL!

[TriskettheKid]

Just out of curiosity:

How many Mossad agents were sent to get Eichmann?

How many were used in the hits on Black September?

It just seems odd that an agency so experienced in covert operations would send so many people to knock off a single person.

[Thunder]

Just out of curiosity:

How many Mossad agents were sent to get Eichmann?

How many were used in the hits on Black September?


it is indeed possible that only a few of these people were the actual culprits.

[ponderingturtle]

um......many of the suspects just happen to be people with the names of Israeli citizens.

With fake passports from them. Of course no one would ever fake a passport right? If we have the names of the murderers then why doesn't someone ask them if they work for the Mosad?


Oh yea, the passports are fake, but only Israel can possibly have fake passports right? I mean who ever heard of buying fake passports on some kind of black market?

[ponderingturtle]

"A list of 11 people suspected in the assassination released last week by Dubai also included the names of six British-born Israelis, whose names appeared on forged British passports thought to have been used by the killers."

Wait they were british passports now not Israeli? It must have been Bond, James Bond.

[Taz]

who should we assume is guilty? Taiwan? Borneo????



You shouldn't assume that anyone is guilty. You can suspect whoever you want. No one here is denying that Israel might be responsible. No one is saying that there's an equal chance that Israel did it as that some fictional character did it.

Yet people are claiming with certainty that Israel did it even when there are many many unanswered questions, and very few answered ones.

The only "evidence" you have is based on the notion that Israel would frame its own citizens. Why would it do that, and when was the last time it did such a thing?

Israel had motive as did other other Arab countries who wanted him arrested and possibly others in the murky underworld of weapons smuggling. Here (http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001090.html) are some other possible motives.

On the other hand there are reasons to argue against it. Mossad is a small organization. They only employ about 1200 people. Would they blow 30 operatives on a single mission? I don't think they have that kind of resources. And where are those people? Their faces have been all over newspapers all over the world and no one has come forward to say they know even one of them. Add to that other factors like the general amateurishness, that Palestinians have been arrested after fleeing to Jordan...

If you want to believe Dubai that Mossad assassins fled to Iran as a refuge using Australian passports... I have a bridge to sell you. We've seen many Arab countries blame Israel for everything they can. And the only information we have is the information that Dubai want us to have.

The British media has already shut the book and called it a Mossad mission. Why would they do it so early on with so little known and so many questions to be answered? I think that that their judgment is based on their anti-Israel views as well as those who have followed their lead.

Israel normally doesn't say anything when it is involved and saying "there's no proof" is more than they usually say.

The main question that I am asking is not did Mossad do it or not, because we have no concrete answer, it's why people, governments, media have already make that accusation to the exclusion of everything else. Whether Israel in the end turns out to have done it isn't relevant to this point here because only those fingering Israel are expressing certainty. The questions over the motive for certainty for guilt without evidence, are equally applicable even if evidence comes along later.

I acknowledge that everything I say is pure speculation which is why I'm not saying that Israel did it or didn't do it, only that they could have done it.

[Thunder]

You shouldn't assume that anyone is guilty. You can suspect whoever you want. No one here is denying that Israel might be responsible. .

i think everyone here assumes that Israel did it. some just don't wanna admit it.