Help ridiculing a Bible Code

[Matabiri]

Someone on another forum is being silly, and has posted this as evidence of a divine being:

http://www.yfiles.com/seven.html

"Ivan Panin carefully examined the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 and discovered an incredible phenomenon of multiples of 7 that could not be explained by chance. Genesis 1:1 was composed of seven Hebrew words containing a total of 28 letters. Throughout the Bible the number seven appears repeatedly as a symbol of divine perfection - the 7 days of creation, God rested on the 7th day, the 7 churches, the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, etc. In total, Panin discovered 30 separate codes involving the number 7 in this first verse of the Bible.

A Partial Listing of the Phenomenal Features of Sevens Found in Genesis 1:

1. The number of Hebrew words = 7
2. The number of letters equals 28 (7 x 4 = 28)
3. The first three Hebrew words translated "In the beginning God created" contain 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
4. The last four Hebrew words "the heavens and the earth" have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
5. The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters
6. The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters
7. The three key words: God, heaven and earth have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
8. The number of letters in the four remaining words is also 14 (7 x 2 = 14)
9. The shortest word in the verse is the middle word with 7 letters
10. The Hebrew numeric value of the first, middle and last letters is 133 (7 x 19 = 133)
11. The Hebrew numeric value of the first and last letters of all seven words is 1393 (7 x 199 = 1393)
12. ..."

I am trying to ridicule this by finding features in the polytheistic English phrase

"In the Beginning Gods created the Heavens"

So far I have:

1. There are 7 words
2. There 35 (= 7 * 5) letters
3. The key words "created" and "heavens" have 7 letters
4. "In the beginning" contains 14 (= 2 * 7) letters
5. The rest of the phrase contains 21 (= 3 * 7) letters
6: The numeric values of the letters in "Gods" and "Heavens" is 119 (= 17 * 7)
7: The most common letter is 'e', which appears 7 times, and appears at the 7th position
8: The second most common letter is 'n', which has numeric value 14 (=2 * 7)
9: 4 letters occur 3 times (4 + 3 = 7)
10: The sum of the values of every seventh letter from the first one divisible by 7 (n, the second letter) = 63 (= 9 * 7)

More ideas? I think the more ridiculous and convoluted the better...

[El Greco]

"Heavens" anagramed: "Ah, seven"!

[Phil]

Reminded of a line from Ghostbusters:

"Yeah. No human would stack books like that."

Or words to that effect.

[juryjone]

I find numerology and bible codes to be so much hooey, and boring to boot, but this jumped out at me:


1. The number of Hebrew words = 7
2. The number of letters equals 28 (7 x 4 = 28)
3. The first three Hebrew words translated "In the beginning God created" contain 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
4. The last four Hebrew words "the heavens and the earth" have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
5. The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters
6. The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters
7. The three key words: God, heaven and earth have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
8. The number of letters in the four remaining words is also 14 (7 x 2 = 14)
9. The shortest word in the verse is the middle word with 7 letters


Isn't number 9 impossible? The middle word of seven is the fourth word. The fourth and the fifth words combined are seven letters. Therefore the fourth word can't be the shortest and have seven letters.

[Skeptical Greg]

Easy..

Just point em' to the Moby Dick Page (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html)


The following challenge was made by Michael Drosnin: ( Author of " The Bible Code "

When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them.
(Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by El Greco
"Heavens" anagramed: "Ah, seven"!

Like it.

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by juryjone
Isn't number 9 impossible? The middle word of seven is the fourth word. The fourth and the fifth words combined are seven letters. Therefore the fourth word can't be the shortest and have seven letters.

Almost certainly, although I don't speak Hebrew to be able to really tell. The point I'm trying to make is that if you go looking for numerological relationships, you can find 'em anywhere.

Diogenes - thanks, was looking for that.

[Skeptical Greg]

Throughout the Bible the number seven appears repeatedly as a symbol of divine perfection - the 7 days of creation, God rested on the 7th day, the 7 churches, the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets...

Let me see.. If I think the number six is special and I write a book that includes information like; 6 days of creation, God rested on the 6th day, the 6 churches, the 6 seals, the 6 trumpets.. Wow, people who read that book might think there is something special about the number 6.. I wonder why?.

Your turn.. You can use the number..... 8 !!!

[Bjorn]

the 7 days of creation, God rested on the 7th daySince God rested on the 7th day, wasn't the creation done in 6?
:con2:

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by Bjorn
Since God rested on the 7th day, wasn't the creation done in 6?

Adequate leisure time is an essential part of any creation.

[CompletelyUnoriginal]

If you multiply the numeric values for the letters in "god" you get 420, proof at least that god knows what makes people happy.

If you multiply the numeric values for all the first letters in each word, you get 1,209,600 which is divisible by 7 and comes to 172,000.

If you multiply the numeric values for all the last letters in each word, you get 3,537,8000 which is divisible by 7 and comes to 505,400.

Now multiply 172,000 by 505,400 and you get 87,333,120,000
which is divisible by 420; gods happy number.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Matabiri
"Ivan Panin carefully examined the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 and discovered an incredible phenomenon of multiples of 7 that could not be explained by chance.
Why not?

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by Vorticity

Why not?

Probably because he doesn't understand "chance".

Same as people saying "evolution is just a theory" don't understand "theory".

[T'ai Chi]

Numbers in a book written by humans is evidence of a divine being? That's a good one. :D

The main difficulty I see is referring a Bible code believer to a thorough mathematical debunking that they'd even understand.

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Numbers in a book written by humans is evidence of a divine being? That's a good one. :D

The main difficulty I see is referring a Bible code believer to a thorough mathematical debunking that they'd even understand.

That's why I'm trying to ridicule it rather than debunk it...

Presumably that the codes are in the Hebrew but not translations means that the translations are not inspired by God, so no-one who doesn't speak Hebrew can possibly be saved...?

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Matabiri


That's why I'm trying to ridicule it rather than debunk it...

Presumably that the codes are in the Hebrew but not translations means that the translations are not inspired by God, so no-one who doesn't speak Hebrew can possibly be saved...?

Hmm.. I'd make a very long "book" filled with random letters.

Then I'd step through and take every, say, 5th letter and see what words I get.

This might (not too sure really) be the same as going through a long book and taking every 5th word.

Surely they couldn't believe that a long book of random letters was divinely inspired. Or maybe they could. :)

[Dancing David]

Well, the silly part about it is this. there is an oral tradition about the mysteries of the OT. the second part is that the bible code is explicit already. hebrew letters are also numbers, and therefore when it says that the age of mthuselah was 999, there is a word that matches the number. So the code is explicit, also how on eath could a code survive from an oral tradition to written text.

[evildave]

The Internet Anagram Server is a big help.
http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/

[Dorian Gray]

This sounds like something Iacchus would wet his pants over.

[wollery]

Originally posted by juryjone
I find numerology and bible codes to be so much hooey, and boring to boot, but this jumped out at me:

1. The number of Hebrew words = 7
2. The number of letters equals 28 (7 x 4 = 28)
3. The first three Hebrew words translated "In the beginning God created" contain 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
4. The last four Hebrew words "the heavens and the earth" have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
5. The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters
6. The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters
7. The three key words: God, heaven and earth have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)
8. The number of letters in the four remaining words is also 14 (7 x 2 = 14)
9. The shortest word in the verse is the middle word with 7 letters

Isn't number 9 impossible? The middle word of seven is the fourth word. The fourth and the fifth words combined are seven letters. Therefore the fourth word can't be the shortest and have seven letters.
More to the point, if there are seven words with a total of 28 letters, that makes an average of 4 per word, so how can the shortest possibly have 7?

[c4ts]

What happens when you apply numerology to cursing punk rock lyrics?

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi

Hmm.. I'd make a very long "book" filled with random letters.
Then I'd step through and take every, say, 5th letter and see what words I get.
This might (not too sure really) be the same as going through a long book and taking every 5th word.
Surely they couldn't believe that a long book of random letters was divinely inspired. Or maybe they could. :)

I actually have some free time to work on the above this weekend, and I'll probably put it on a webpage pretty soon with some other things I worked on in the past.

Intuitively, I think that it will be harder though to get meaningful words from random letters than it is to get meaningful sentences from random words.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Matabiri

More ideas? I think the more ridiculous and convoluted the better... Just think if God were the Creator, then He would be the inspiration for everything now wouldn't He? ;)

Why can't God exist and be the cause and effect (inspiration) of that existence as well?

[EternalUniverse]

It's all about the selective presentation of "facts" that makes this easy to debunk. Why choose and present all the examples given? There are a myriad of other "magical" numbers that can be found if you look hard enough.

[evildave]

Ivan Panin = Van In Pain
Ivan Panin = Vain In Pan
Ivan Panin = Pain In Van

Could it be that Ivan Panin's very name prophesies something?

Will his car van break down, and be in pain?

Or will he be proud of something he does in a bed pan?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Bjorn

Since God rested on the 7th day, wasn't the creation done in 6?
:con2: If you take six pennies and arrange them in the form of a hexagram, to where each penny touched the next penny, you would have precisely enough room to place a seventh penny in the center. So yes, the numbers 6 and 7 do have a universal relationship to one another.

Whereas if you "circumscribe" a larger circle around the orignal seven (pennies), you now have the eighth circle, and hence "one octave," and its relationship to the musical scale.

http://www.dionysus.org/7_colors.gif

Please disregard my use of the numbers here, as they pertain to another illustration. However, it might make more sense if you understood that the 4th commandment says, "Honor the Sabbath" or, "7th day." Which, is illustrated by the symbolism below ...

http://www.dionysus.org/art0803.gif

4) Honor the Sabbath ... 7) Don't commit Adultery ... 9) Don't bear False Witness ...

And here we have The Three Centers, which shows why the 7 should be placed in the center (of a hexagram) and the 8th should circumscribe the original seven. All of which culminate into the symbol below ...

http://www.dionysus.org/art0805.gif

And note, the arrangement of the numbers 1 through 6, may not necessarily reflect the six days of creation. Although it would probably be more like the "color wheel" effect above, except with the "7th day" placed in the center.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by EternalUniverse
It's all about the selective presentation of "facts" that makes this easy to debunk. Why choose and present all the examples given? There are a myriad of other "magical" numbers that can be found if you look hard enough. No, it's rather conspicuous that the number 7 denotes the "center" of everything.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Iacchus
No, it's rather conspicuous that the number 7 denotes the "center" of everything.

"Oh look. I've drawn a geometrical figure with the number 7 in the middle. See? That proves everything!"

May I - with all due respects - intervene with the following small remark: huh?!?

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Iacchus
No, it's rather conspicuous that the number 7 denotes the "center" of everything.

If you wish to cloak your mysticism in the Hebrai and Cannanite traditions, you really need to study the kabbalah. Also Qabbalah, there are many variations on the transiliteration. I recommend Eden Gray. But you must understand that you are just borrowing a mish mash here, it is very useful to understand that the hebrai kabbalah is different from greek gematria.

Seven is the number of the manifestation of creation, that is why god created the world in seven days, but there are the three 'supernals' that exist before the creation of the seven, therefore the total number of creation is ten not seven. The reason that seven is made reference to is because it is the number of the physical creation, that which is apparent in the material world. But there is that whisch lies beyong the abyss of reason. And so the total number of creation is ten.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Dancing David
*snip*
And so the total number of creation is ten.

Really? I always thought it was 42.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

If you wish to cloak your mysticism in the Hebrai and Cannanite traditions, you really need to study the kabbalah. Also Qabbalah, there are many variations on the transiliteration. I recommend Eden Gray. But you must understand that you are just borrowing a mish mash here, it is very useful to understand that the hebrai kabbalah is different from greek gematria.Mysticism is mysticism, and you don't "cloak" it as much as you use the materials at hand. So there's no point in labeling my material as aberrant or, possibly "heretical," because my mother and father are legitimate.

So, how is it possible to create a "life" for oneself (spiritual or whatever), without the ability to work with the materials at hand?


Seven is the number of the manifestation of creation, that is why god created the world in seven days, but there are the three 'supernals' that exist before the creation of the seven, therefore the total number of creation is ten not seven. The reason that seven is made reference to is because it is the number of the physical creation, that which is apparent in the material world. But there is that whisch lies beyong the abyss of reason. And so the total number of creation is ten. Oh, do you mean like the bowling pin configuration, where you attach three additional pennies to the hexagram and create an equilateral triangle?

By the way, did you know that by adding three more pennies it forms a six-sided star, which is the same configuration that's on the back of a dollar bill, and is supposed to represent the thirteen original colonies of the United States? Except that instead of pennies, it's comprised of 13 five 5-pointed stars, in which case the star itself becomes the 14th (star).

Kind of sounds reminiscient of Israel (Jacob) adopting the two sons of Joseph -- Manasseh and Ephraim -- which thus became his 13th and 14th sons -- which, by the way, are supossed to represent Great Britain and the United States. Please refer to chapter 10 of my book, Ephraim and Manasseh (http://www.dionysus.org/x1001.html) ...

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by CWL

"Oh look. I've drawn a geometrical figure with the number 7 in the middle. See? That proves everything!"

May I - with all due respects - intervene with the following small remark: huh?!?Perhaps you should try working with the seven pennies instead or, whatever coins you have available? So long as they're equal in diameter.

Does this prove everything? No. However, it does suggest it's possible to assign values to numbers and, that we seem to be looking in the right area (with respect to the number seven). While here are some possible meanings for the numbers 1 thru 7 ...

1 = Unity.

2 = Duality (left and right) ... stereo.

3 = Existence (triangle at its base) ... establishment.

4 = Center of existence (within the triangle) ... Greek letter delta?

5 = Perception (arising from triangle) ... awareness of space existing outside of one's center.

6 = Will (development of hexagram) ... interaction with the space existing outside of one's center.

7 = Completeness ... re-establishment of center, based upon the awareness (5) and interaction (6) of "the reality" which now exists outside of one's center.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

If you wish to cloak your mysticism in the Hebrai and Cannanite traditions, you really need to study the kabbalah. Also Qabbalah, there are many variations on the transiliteration. I recommend Eden Gray. But you must understand that you are just borrowing a mish mash here, it is very useful to understand that the hebrai kabbalah is different from greek gematria.I had already looked into this to some degree, but at the time it didn't seem suitable to what I had aleady developed (i.e., too abstract).

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by CWL


Really? I always thought it was 42.
Fnord!;)

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Mysticism is mysticism, and you don't "cloak" it as much as you use the materials at hand. So there's no point in labeling my material as aberrant or, possibly "heretical," because my mother and father are legitimate.

Heresey is the best if you can't lampoon your religion you can't really enjoy it. I am not saying that your beliefs are lacking in respect. I just recomend that if you are going to drag in the bible and the traditions associated with it that it is helpful to be conversant in the sysmbols of the tradition.
As a neo-pagan I recognise the absolute need to make things on the fly, but in the symbolic converstaion it helps to understand the language of the tradition. It is fine to have a self establishing faith. I am merely making flip comments about dragging in the bible and all it's demons.

So, how is it possible to create a "life" for oneself (spiritual or whatever), without the ability to work with the materials at hand?

Quite in agreement!
Yet since I believe that culture is the manifestation and repository of the 'collective unconsious" then it is important to know the water before you swall0ow the ocean. ;)

Oh, do you mean like the bowling pin configuration, where you attach three additional pennies to the hexagram and create an equilateral triangle?

Uh, no, that one doesn't ring anything in my 'spiritual' baggage. That is part of the geometry of numbers. Which is so complex that it is a mirror where we can see ourselves in the symbolism. I mean that in the 'creation' of the 'world' as referenced in the creation myth of the bible. That when 'god' gets down to the matter-ial creation the number of elements in that creation is seven, representing a lot of things in the ancient mystery traditions.
The superanals 'exist' before the 'creation' and therefore when god 'creates' the material world it takes seven days, once for each of the elements of 'creation'. The supernals 'exist' before the creation and therefore when you start the magic of the numbers the seven of the material world comes after the 'three' of the supernals.
Which leads to the number ten and all that entails in the bible myth.

By the way, did you know that by adding three more pennies it forms a six-sided star, which is the same configuration that's on the back of a dollar bill, and is supposed to represent the thirteen original colonies of the United States? Except that instead of pennies, it's comprised of 13 five 5-pointed stars, in which case the star itself becomes the 14th (star).

I don't see that myself. Thirteen is the number of the ten spheres and the three veils of creation. Also the full moons in a year.


Kind of sounds reminiscient of Israel (Jacob) adopting the two sons of Joseph -- Manasseh and Ephraim -- which thus became his 13th and 14th sons -- which, by the way, are supossed to represent Great Britain and the United States. Please refer to chapter 10 of my book, Ephraim and Manasseh (http://www.dionysus.org/x1001.html) ...

Sorry , I think the ten tribes are accounted for unless you read Holy Blood, Holy Grail and there is an even better one about the ark of the convenant and bathseeba. As entertaining as the National Review and the other tabloids.