The Ultimate 9/11 Thread on 9/11 Threads

[Telltale Tom]

It seems to me that there are too many threads on 9/11 to have a conversation about anything. There are 8,240 threads about 9/11, so how can we avoid just repeating the same old crap and progress the real scientific discussion in search of truth, honesty and mutual understanding.

Even at the moment there are about 10 threads running simultaneously on ae911truth and how big and effective it is. Also when was the last time the fire threads dealt with anything to do with fire. Surely we need some sub-grouping. If we focus the technical discussion in a number of key areas then we could try and agree on what we agree and what we don't agree. I suggest that we follow ae911truth's excellent list of the main reasons that prove Controlled Demolition.

the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives: (and some non-standard characteristics)

1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration

2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution

3. Extremely rapid onset of destruction

4. Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes

5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph

6. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking

7. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds

8. 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found

9. Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front

10. Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame

11. Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises

12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples

13. Evidence of explosives found in dust samples

14. No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

I suggest that we follow ae911truth's excellent list of the main reasons that prove Controlled Demolition.

I suggest that you present evidence to prove the CD theory. Only crazy people come up with a claim then try to present evidence from a group of morons calling themselves A&E for 9/11 Truth!

[EventHorizon]

It seems to me that there are too many threads on 9/11 to have a conversation about anything.


Good thing you started another one then.

[16.5]

2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution

****

5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph

FANTASTIC! TellTale Tom, I think you are the greatest. However, if you wanted to really show how incompetent they are, you should put these right next to each other.

[WildCat]

Ultimate 9/11 thread is ultimate.

[Sam.I.Am]

Ultimate 9/11 thread is ultimate.

It's like an ultimate showdown (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/285267) or something...

[Telltale Tom]

2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution

****

5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph

FANTASTIC! TellTale Tom, I think you are the greatest. However, if you wanted to really show how incompetent they are, you should put these right next to each other.

I am just taking the list straight from the ae911truth web site. I believe it is in order of importance as our key point is the nearly always the freefall speed through the path of greatest resistance.

Some people say that falling through the path of greatest resistance is inconsistent with a 1200ft diameter debris field.

Tony Szamboti says that the ae911truth have now agreed that the towers fell at 2/3rds freefall speed, so we can expect an update shortly saying that the towers fell at over half of freefall speed.

It is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception...

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

I am just taking the list straight from the ae911truth web site. I believe it is in order of importance as our key point is the nearly always the freefall speed through the path of greatest resistance.

Some people say that falling through the path of greatest resistance is inconsistent with a 1200ft diameter debris field.

Tony Szamboti says that the ae911truth have now agreed that the towers fell at 2/3rds freefall speed, so we can expect an update shortly saying that the towers fell at over half of freefall speed.

It is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception...

Isn't that a repeat about "free fall speed"? Are you on a continuous loop or something?

70% of free fall isn't free fall at all. Where the hell's the other 30%?

Tony hasn't got a clue nor has he given anyone here evidence, plus he has no peer reviewed paper!

Half of free fall speed? It's like saying that a glass of water is half full or half empty.

[T.A.M.]

1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration


1. Wrong. More energy would have been needed to topple the top sections over, or to move them horizontally away from the bottom sections to then fall freely, therefore they actually traveled through the path of least resistance, as they always will.

2. nearly, only if you consider 70%-75% "nearly". If that is the case...SO WHAT.


2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution

Improbably according to who? Seems to me, things fall down, they land pretty close to where they stood, things go "Kaboom" they can land anywhere...this is yet again another "argument from what I think should have happened".


3. Extremely rapid onset of destruction

??? well how long should it have taken to fall, by "non CD means" once the collapse started? 5 minutes? 30 minutes? this is ridiculous.



4. Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes

really? flashes of light and "explosions" were heard around the time of, and during the collapse of 2 110 storey skyscrapers that were just hit by jet airliners...well i'll be damned that is *********** amazing.



5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph

When you pound a big mac with your fist, where do the ingredients go, down, or out sideways?



6. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking

Wrong. lots of photos with tonnes of concrete that was far from pulverized. most of the dust cloud is pulverized WALLBOARD. Please play again.


7. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds

For the love of god, you have no idea what you are talking about. When a building falls down, WHAT EVER THE CAUSE, you will get a big billowing cloud of smoke.


8. 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found


Debris field was in keeping with the collapse of a 110 storey building, regardless of cause. Thre were pancaked floors found, and I think someone here has pictures of them to prove it.



9. Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front

Dylan Avery, is that you? Really, you are still trying to push the "Squibs" angle after it has been clearly debunked. air pressure from collapsing building blows out windows below...EOS.



10. Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame

Ya, so?


11. Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises

This is the best one yet. You are even brazen enough to try and quantify the lie into "several tons", proof please or shut up.


12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples

Wrong. No proof, just one poorly written, poorly carried out paper and analysis by a bunch of "wish we were" scientists way out of their fields.


13. Evidence of explosives found in dust samples

Wrong again. Many many analysis of the dust by REAL LABS with LEGITIMATE SCIENTISTS, without an AGENDA, found NO such proof.


14. No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

No precedent for the "Big Bang" either, yet it happened.

NEXT!!!!

TAM:)

[16.5]

It is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception...

It is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception...

It is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception...

It is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception...

It is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception...

My god, that is beautiful in its stupidity... On the other hand, you certainly won't have to worry about the fact that the "facts" are completely contradictory.

[carlitos]

It is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception...Thanks for quoting that. I missed it the first time. That is awesome.

[NickUK]

14. No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

Are truthers actually incapable of recalling the plane crashing into the building first?

[Thunder]

Are truthers actually incapable of recalling the plane crashing into the building first?

oh, they know what happened.

they just like to regurgitate this strawman, in hopes that it will ring true in the ears of those who don't understand.

[aggle-rithm]

Are truthers actually incapable of recalling the plane crashing into the building first?

Haven't you heard? Apparently, it is important to consider each idea in isolation for the best perception.

[liverleef]

5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph

This is still my all time favorite. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 feet....if this were true then smaller pieces of metalic debris should have been blown halfway across the planet. Evidently in twoofer land explosions only act on multi-ton steel sections. Do truthers even think about what they read/hear before they go around repeating it to everyone?

[aggle-rithm]

Is it me, or is this thread just not that ultimate?

[Hokulele]

If everyone keeps using that word, Roger Misner will show up again!

(Registered as Ultima27, or whatever number he is up to now.)

[Sam.I.Am]

Is it me, or is this thread just not that ultimate?

Hey, at least I got to work Chuck Norris and The Batman into it...

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Hey, at least I got to work Chuck Norris and The Batman into it...

Considering that Batman always puts criminals away at Ayrkum Asylum, just think of all those poor Truthers out there that act like Joker. Yes Truthers, you are a bunch of clowns who are mentally insane to come up with your CT claims.

[twinstead]

Is it me, or is this thread just not that ultimate?

It's "ultimate Lite"

[Telltale Tom]

But seriously, if you search the 9/11 Conspiracy theories there are over 200 threads that have discussed explosives. Everything for and against has beed said many times.

So do we just keep arguing on the assumption that most new people will do research on what has been said in the last few weeks and make a considered assesment on that basis alone.

[I Ratant]

Is it me, or is this thread just not that ultimate?
.
Sadly, this is too true.
There's no lower limit to abject stupidity.

[bill smith]

It seems to me that there are too many threads on 9/11 to have a conversation about anything. There are 8,240 threads about 9/11, so how can we avoid just repeating the same old crap and progress the real scientific discussion in search of truth, honesty and mutual understanding.

Even at the moment there are about 10 threads running simultaneously on ae911truth and how big and effective it is. Also when was the last time the fire threads dealt with anything to do with fire. Surely we need some sub-grouping. If we focus the technical discussion in a number of key areas then we could try and agree on what we agree and what we don't agree. I suggest that we follow ae911truth's excellent list of the main reasons that prove Controlled Demolition.

Richard Gage lays it all out in one here in this interview. He has a tough time with the interviewer but manages to prevail I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdKKLdokPsQ

[AJM8125]

Richard Gage lays it all out in one here in this interview. He has a tough time with the interviewer but manages to prevail I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdKKLdokPsQ

He sounds like a scalded cat.

[WildCat]

Is it me, or is this thread just not that ultimate?
It's at the top of the page RIGHT NOW!

[bill smith]

But seriously, if you search the 9/11 Conspiracy theories there are over 200 threads that have discussed explosives. Everything for and against has beed said many times.

So do we just keep arguing on the assumption that most new people will do research on what has been said in the last few weeks and make a considered assesment on that basis alone.

It's just the way of the times Tom. Look at the News....it doesn't matter how serious or Earth-shaking the event....the conveyor belt of news keeps moving on and shifting our focus wherever the fat controller wants.

Whatever happened to the 300,000 dead in Haiti just a few weeks ago ? Yet I know all about Tiger Woods. What's next ? I can't wait..lol

[Furcifer]

Is it me, or is this thread just not that ultimate?

Measured in stupidity, yes, yes it is.

[twinstead]

It's just the way of the times Tom. Look at the News....it doesn't matter how serious or Earth-shaking the event....the conveyor belt of news keeps moving on and shifting our focus wherever the fat controller wants.

Whatever happened to the 300,000 dead in Haiti just a few weeks ago ? Yet I know all about Tiger Woods. What's next ? I can't wait..lol

So you think it's impossible to have available news about Haiti AND Tiger woods? Or is news on your planet serial instead of parallel?

[Edx]

I am just taking the list straight from the ae911truth web site. I believe it is in order of importance as our key point is the nearly always the freefall speed through the path of greatest resistance.


Then your "keypoint" is wrong.

15 and 22 seconds is not free fall :rolleyes:

Tony Szamboti says that the ae911truth have now agreed that the towers fell at 2/3rds freefall speed

Its taken nearly a decade for one of those clowns to actually time the collapse properly?

Wow.

[Mr.Herbert]

Tom,

Would you be able to forward the letter to Richard Gage? Greg Urich gave it to him about a year ago. No response. I too hand delivered a copy to him several months ago..still no response.



the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives: (and some non-standard characteristics)

1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration

2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution

3. Extremely rapid onset of destruction

4. Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes

5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph

6. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking

7. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds

8. 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found

9. Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front

10. Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame

11. Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises

12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples

13. Evidence of explosives found in dust samples

14. No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

Open letter from Mr. Urich to Dick:



An open letter to Richard Gage and AE911Truth
Dear Mr. Gage and members of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth,
I am a member of AE911Truth (pending verification) and Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice. I have
also contributed articles to the Journal of 9/11 Studies. While I appreciate the work you and others
are doing to examine the events of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, I am concerned that many arguments
put forth are incorrect. Please don’t mistake me for a NIST apologist or an official cover-up story
believer. The truth movement needs to be very sure of its claims to avoid being dismissed as ignorant
fools, nut-jobs or politically motivated manipulators. Justice is clearly dependent on the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth. Because of the large number of fallacious claims purveyed by
various groups within the movement, my approach has been and will continue to be to examine
claims on both sides of the argument and take them at their own merit. I hope others will embrace
this approach so that the truth movement can live up to its basic values and achieve its well meaning
goals.
There are clearly problems with the official story and these are well covered by truth movement.
However, after spending many 100s of hours examining and discussing evidence, analyses and claims
on both sides of the argument, I have found that a large portion of the truth movement’s claims are
unsubstantiated or incorrect. These need to be corrected. With this in mind, I have looked at the
AE911Truth claims given below and I offer criticism where I feel it can be helpful.
From AE911Truth with my comments interspersed:
”As seen in this revealing photo the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all the characteristics
of destruction by explosions: (and some non-standard characteristics)
1. Extremely rapid onset of “collapse”
The validity of this claim rests on the definition of “extremely rapid”. NIST provides
evidence of growing instability 10 min prior to collapse including smoke expulsions
from partial floor collapses and bowing of the exterior wall on the south side of WTC1.
2. Sounds of explosions and flashes of light witnessed near the beginning of the "collapse" by
over 100 first responders
Surely, there were explosive sounds and flashes of light as there are too many
witnesses to deny this. Nonetheless, the only videos of the collapses with sound do
not have any explosive sounds. In the following video, one can hear people talking and
the sound of the collapse. In videos of actual demolitions the explosive charges are at
least ten times louder than collapse sounds. Compare:
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc2_south_below.mpg
to these actual demolitions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79sJ1bMR6VQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XG-l3N1YfQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwMkJmnyDuQ
This evidence directly contradicts the controlled demolition theory, at least by conventional
means. Nonetheless, the witness testimonies should be taken seriously. It is possible that
people heard or saw something else, for example, reflections of lights from emergency
vehicles or cars exploding.
3. Squibs, or “mistimed” explosions, 40 floors below the “collapsing” building seen in all the
videos
This argument would only favor controlled demolition if the pressures inside the
building in a gravitational collapse are not sufficient or cannot propagate fast enough
to cause the observed phenomena. To my knowledge, this has not been
demonstrated.
4. Mid-air pulverization of all the 90,000 tons of concrete and steel decking, filing cabinets &
1000 people – mostly to dust
This claim is not correct and in no way favors controlled demolition over gravitational
collapse. Engineers at Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice (STJ911), including Greg
Jenkins, Tony Szamboti and Gregory Urich, have demonstrated that the upper bound
for concrete pulverized to dust was 15%. We have also calculated that the amount of
dust attributable to easily crushed materials like gypsum and SFRM (thermal
insulation) was equivalent to 5 lbs per square foot over an area of 200 acres. We have
also calculated that no extra energy source would be needed to create this amount of
dust. The pressures approached 100,000 psi late in the collapse. How could these
pressures not result in humans and other materials being crushed to dust?
5. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds
Is the cloud really pyroclastic, or is it just dust? Engineers at STJ911 have calculated
that 15% of the concrete together with fireproofing and gypsum would result in
massive volumes amounting to 10 lbs of dust per square foot over an area of 200
acres. Engineers at STJ911 have calculated that the air being expelled from the
collapsing building was approaching velocities of 200 m/s. This is the primary engine
driving the expanding dust clouds. The dust cloud was given even more energy from
debris falling outside the perimeter.
6. Vertical progression of full building perimeter demolition waves
This is only one interpretation of the visual records of the collapses. Another
interpretation is that the pressures due to impacts were blowing out the windows. The
characterization as “demolition waves” has no support in the evidence or scientific
analyses to date.
7. Symmetrical collapse – through the path of greatest resistance – at nearly free-fall speed —
the columns gave no resistance
This is simply incorrect. Neither collapse was symmetrical. In WTC2, most debris falling
outside the footprint went east and south. In WTC1, most debris falling outside the
footprint went north and west. Engineers at STJ911 have calculated that the structure
provided resistance to the extent that 40-60% of the original PE was dissipated prior to
debris impact at the foundation.
8. 1,400 foot diameter field of equally distributed debris – outside of building footprint
This claim in no way favors CD over gravitational collapse. The size of the debris field is
not surprising considering that the exteriors peeled outward (see also #10). The debris
was not equally distributed.
9. Blast waves blew out windows in buildings 400 feet away
The characterization of blast waves is not supported. Since most of the broken
windows were broken lower down on the surrounding buildings, the most likely cause
was winds caused by the expulsion of air from the building as described in #5. The
winds described above would certainly be capable of blowing in windows.
10. Lateral ejection of thousands of individual 20 - 50 ton steel beams up to 500 feet
Close inspection of some of the videos reveal that most exterior columns fell still
connected as the exterior peeled outward. Since the exterior was 1400 ft. high it is not
surprising that they reached 500 ft. away. In fact, there exist photos of the nearly
intact exterior stretching all the way from WTC1 to the World Financial Center.
11. Total destruction of the building down to individual structural steel elements – obliterating
the steel core structure.
It has not been demonstrated that this is uncharacteristic of a gravitational collapse
that initiates high up in a 110 floor, high rise, tube/core structure building. Since the
world has never seen such a collapse prior to or after 9/11, there are no empirical
results to compare to. Often, the collapses are compared to gravitation collapses due
to earthquakes resulting in pan-caking or toppling. These comparisons are not relevant
to the Twin Towers because the initiation of the collapses is low in the building due to
lateral forces. Nonetheless, it has been demonstrated that there was plenty of
potential energy to enable buckling of all columns at every floor. In reality, the core
columns broke mostly at the welded connections every 36 ft, which takes even less
energy.
12. Tons of molten Metal found by FDNY under all 3 high-rises (What could have produced all
of that molten metal?)
Does any evidence for “tons of molten metal” exist? What metals comprise this
molten metal? This author is only aware of witness statements regarding molten
metal and only small pieces of previously molten metal. Can molten metal observed in
the pile weeks after the collapse be attributed to a thermate attack weeks before? The
fires in the pile would not be hot enough to ignite any unburned thermate and any
thermate burning in the pile would give off a characteristic bright white light, which
was not observed. If there is in fact evidence of tons (i.e. more than one ton), this is a
reasonable issue to investigate. Until this claim is supported by evidence, it cannot be
considered indicative of a thermate attack.
13. Chemical signature of Thermate (high tech incendiary) found in slag, solidified molten
metal, and dust samples by Physics professor Steven Jones, PhD.
I believe that this is a valid issue which should be pursued by independent researchers
and NIST alike. However, there may be alternative explanations other than a
preplanned demolition and these should receive at least as much attention.
14. FEMA finds rapid oxidation and inter-granular melting on structural steel samples
I believe that this is a valid issue which should be pursued by independent researchers
and NIST alike. However, there may be alternative explanations other than a
preplanned demolition and these should receive at least as much attention.
15. More than 1000 Bodies are unaccounted for — 700 tiny bone fragments found on top of
nearby buildings”
This does not favor the CD hypothesis over the gravitational collapse hypothesis. See
#4.
And exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.
1. Slow onset with large visible deformations.
See #1 above.
2. Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of
momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged
by the fires).
Has any rigorous analysis of the “path of least resistance” been done? An application of the
principle of least action would probably be more appropriate. Mechanical dynamics are
governed by inertia, force, momentum and material properties. This author has seen no
dynamic analyses showing that the top parts of the towers should have fallen off. Unless this
argument is supported by careful analysis it is only conjecture.
3. Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel.
It is well proven that temperatures in building fires can soften steel. This is why buildings
have thermal insulation applied to the steel structural components.
4. High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never “collapsed”.
These buildings were not structurally damaged to begin with and had different structural
designs than the Twin Towers. It would be meaningful to examine whether or not the
buildings, which survived serious fires, had concrete cores or not. Does any evidence exist
that buildings with similar structural design, damaged in the manner of the world trade
center, should not collapse due to fires?
My conclusion is that there is no claim favoring the controlled demolition hypothesis over NIST’s
impact/fire/gravitational collapse hypothesis. Most important, there are no tell-tale sharp cracking
sounds in the sound video given above and there is no comparison between the sounds in that video
and the sounds in videos actual demolitions. This means we can rule out demolition using
conventional means.
I hope that your commitment to the truth is such that you take my criticisms seriously. If the truth
movement is going to be successful, we will need to distance ourselves from fallacious claims and
avoid conjecture. I would welcome constructive discussion of these issues in any forum. I am
regularly available on the STJ911 and JREF forums, and you have my e-mail address.
Sincerely,
Gregory Urich
P.S. Some wordings have been changed for clarity and small errors have been corrected in this
published version.

[bill smith]

I would advise Richard Gage to wait for another open letter from Greg Ulich spelling out the other side of the coin in the same bullet-point way. That means producing an itemised list of the points that do indicate controlled demolition in Greg's opinion. Just for clarification..

[Furcifer]

Richard Gage is a dishonest fraud with no intention of accomplishing anything beyond getting his name tossed about in conspiracy circles. Don't expect any response from him.

[AJM8125]

Richard Gage is a dishonest fraud with no intention of accomplishing anything beyond getting his name tossed about in conspiracy circles. Don't expect any response from him.

Gotta disagree. He's an honest to goodness fraud. The rest is spot on.

[aggle-rithm]

Tom,

Would you be able to forward the letter to Richard Gage? Greg Urich gave it to him about a year ago. No response. I too hand delivered a copy to him several months ago..still no response.



Open letter from Mr. Urich to Dick:

I think Gage is probably well aware that his arguments are fallacious. He just doesn't want the gravy train to run dry.

There has to be more honorable ways to earn a living. Has he even TRIED drug smuggling?

[Dog Town]

Look at the News....it doesn't matter how serious or Earth-shaking the event....the conveyor belt of news keeps moving on and shifting our focus...

Yes, they call it NEWs, for a reason. Not the Olds.

[aggle-rithm]

Yes, they call it NEWs, for a reason. Not the Olds.

"This just in: Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead."

--Chevy Chase, Weekend Update

[Telltale Tom]

Richard Gage lays it all out in one here in this interview. He has a tough time with the interviewer but manages to prevail I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdKKLdokPsQ

It is interesting to see Richard under pressure. I think he earned his money on this show.

He did well until the end when he blamed the elevator contractor for getting access to the core columns to set the explosives and then running away rather than helping the fire fighters. Pity only 10 columns can be accessed from the elevator shafts at the impact level.

But thats why he gets the big bucks

[Telltale Tom]

See you all in 3 months... its been fun.!!
Time to get back to real life.!

By that time we should have another 100 signers...so 1,140... byeeee
Keep fighting the good fight.!

[Unsecured Coins]

100 signers im 3 months. You're over estimating yourself.

[twinstead]

Wake me when the revolution starts.

[T.A.M.]

100 signers im 3 months. You're over estimating yourself.

We are talking AE911truth. Not exactly tough guys on the old qualifications and vetting process.

TAM:)

[1337m4n]

1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration

Question...

If a collapse must proceed via the "path of least resistance", shouldn't the building have fallen UP?

Technically, since air pressure decreases with elevation, the "path of least resistance" would be upwards. So what you are saying is that it would have been more realistic for the upper block to have flown into the air. Is this an accurate assessment of your position?

[aggle-rithm]

Question...

If a collapse must proceed via the "path of least resistance", shouldn't the building have fallen UP?

Technically, since air pressure decreases with elevation, the "path of least resistance" would be upwards. So what you are saying is that it would have been more realistic for the upper block to have flown into the air. Is this an accurate assessment of your position?

OMG...that means everything that has ever fallen DOWN is evidence of a government conspiracy.

It's bigger than we thought, people!!!!

[BigAl]

See you all in 3 months... its been fun.!!
Time to get back to real life.!

By that time we should have another 100 signers...so 1,140... byeeee
Keep fighting the good fight.!

Is someone tracking the deceased? From what I saw, the membership of AE was decidedly on the geriatric side.

[Jonnyclueless]

Some more good ideas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lQtvRhkL0c

(poe)

[dafydd]

Is someone tracking the deceased? From what I saw, the membership of AE was decidedly on the geriatric side.

Presumably on the senile dementia side too.

[Loss Leader]

12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples

You mean that the presence of each of the ingredients of thermite was detected? That' just weak. That's like saying that there was evidence of a fifty-foot steel and wallboard scupture of my tushie found by FEMA. That's like saying there was evidence of a giant thirty-foot primate with the ability to shift its DNA living in Tower Two. It's just dumb.

[Telltale Tom]

So we are up at 1194 petitions signers for the ae911truth in two and half months, which means there is almost 2 a day. At this rate we should reach 2,000 just before the 10th anniversary and 5,000 by the 15th anniversary.

Check out the latest video of the May 2010 double header of ae911truth and Firefighters911truith. There is a link on the ae911truth web site to a 2hr 30 min video. It is a wonderfully orchestrated presentation. Richard Gage, the Architect of Destruction, leads a congregation of believers. He made a joint presentation with his disciples. These were a firefighter expert, who claims to have been nearly part of the 9/11 recovery effort and has written a book, and a structural engineer expert, Kamal Obeid ( I looked for him on line and all I could find is that in April 2008 he was working on a project that was resurfacing a tennis court,) and he was joined by a demolition "expert" and he once worked for Americas biggest demolition company for two and a half years where he was a qualified explosives "loader" and he has also written a book.

I think these books should be called " The Books of Truth"

I particularly liked the Collection. Midway through the event, at the transition between the evidence on WTC 7 and WTC 1 and 2 there was the Collection. Richard thanks the audience for paying the entrance fee and then tells everyone how much they need monthly subs and how much they need . They then they circulated the symbolic black boxes and asked everyone in the audience to put in a twenty.! It was so well done, it brought a tear to my eye.

Richard Gage was very proud that they now have 40 structural engineers from around the world who have signed the petition, which I find quite amazing. Although Kamal said that this number was pathetic. Pity Kamal only spoke about WTC 7 as I would like to have heard him explain how the WTC 1 and 2 could not have collapsed from these small fires.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Thank you Tom. I plan on watching the video right after the I get done watching this special on paint drying.

[firecoins]

so how can we avoid just repeating the same old crap and progress the real scientific discussion in search of truth.
There were no explosive devices in the WTC but thousands of people who died. Let me know when you recognize the truth.

[firecoins]

Thank you Tom. I plan on watching the video right after the I get done watching this special on paint drying.
I missed that paint drying special again! I have the one with the grass growing. Ill trade you.

[firecoins]

So we are up at 1194 petitions signers for the ae911truth in two and half months, which means there is almost 2 a day. At this rate we should reach 2,000 just before the 10th anniversary and 5,000 by the 15th anniversary.
.
Wow! And to think the number of people who died in the terrorist attack died in less than 2 hours. Keep up the record pace!

[Nursedan]

Yeah, let's all talk about 9.11 some more. That's what we need to do. Let's keep talking about it.

Only then will we have talked about it.

[Edx]

Thank you Tom. I plan on watching the video right after the I get done watching this special on paint drying.

Dry thermite paint is a high explosive, says Jones :D

[JohnG]

So we are up at 1194 petitions signers for the ae911truth in two and half months, which means there is almost 2 a day. At this rate we should reach 2,000 just before the 10th anniversary and 5,000 by the 15th anniversary.

Check out the latest video of the May 2010 double header of ae911truth and Firefighters911truith. There is a link on the ae911truth web site to a 2hr 30 min video. It is a wonderfully orchestrated presentation. Richard Gage, the Architect of Destruction, leads a congregation of believers. He made a joint presentation with his disciples. These were a firefighter expert, who claims to have been nearly part of the 9/11 recovery effort and has written a book, and a structural engineer expert, Kamal Obeid ( I looked for him on line and all I could find is that in April 2008 he was working on a project that was resurfacing a tennis court,) and he was joined by a demolition "expert" and he once worked for Americas biggest demolition company for two and a half years where he was a qualified explosives "loader" and he has also written a book.

I think these books should be called " The Books of Truth"

I particularly liked the Collection. Midway through the event, at the transition between the evidence on WTC 7 and WTC 1 and 2 there was the Collection. Richard thanks the audience for paying the entrance fee and then tells everyone how much they need monthly subs and how much they need . They then they circulated the symbolic black boxes and asked everyone in the audience to put in a twenty.! It was so well done, it brought a tear to my eye.

Richard Gage was very proud that they now have 40 structural engineers from around the world who have signed the petition, which I find quite amazing. Although Kamal said that this number was pathetic. Pity Kamal only spoke about WTC 7 as I would like to have heard him explain how the WTC 1 and 2 could not have collapsed from these small fires.


You're kidding, right?

[Oystein]

You're kidding, right?

I think he really is.

[MikeW]

Yes, don't be hard on TellTale Tom. He's only a truther for comic effect (& he's very good at it, too).

[dafydd]

Yes, don't be hard on TellTale Tom. He's only a truther for comic effect (& he's very good at it, too).

Trutherism is a new branch of comedy,sit down comedians.

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

So we are up at 1194 petitions signers for the ae911truth ...


Sorry Tom, make that 1193 ... I "signed" that petition ages ago *ahem* borrowing a friends degree ... as well as ficticious membership of some professional associations.

I can guarantee I am not the only one either ... so don't be getting too ahead of yourself.

Any idea on just exactly when this petition is going to get presented ... and to whom, after all there is nothing as impotent as an on-going, on-line petition ... just empty rhetoric in't ether otherwise ???

Aside from your obvious comedic value ... this needs to be addressed, us "signatories" are getting bored going no-where ...

[ref]

Any idea on just exactly when this petition is going to get presented ... and to whom, after all there is nothing as impotent as an on-going, on-line petition ... just empty rhetoric in't ether otherwise ???

Aside from your obvious comedic value ... this needs to be addressed, us "signatories" are getting bored going no-where ...



In 2009 they were planning to do this:

We also have our sights on Washington, DC where we plan to present 1,000 A&E signatures to Congress on Sept. 11th — and make a big media event of it.
http://www.ae911truth.org/actionalerts/action014.php


Well, they didn't reach 1,000 in 2009. What happened in 2010, when they claim to have reached 1,000? Did they go to Congress?

Of course not.

Instead, they held a "press conference (http://www.ae911truth.org/info/175)". There was only one problem, there was no press. Only truthers in attendance.

[JohnG]

Yes, don't be hard on TellTale Tom. He's only a truther for comic effect (& he's very good at it, too).


I've said it before and I'll say it again; there are days when it feels like 95% of the people who post on the web are either children/mentally ill/mentally subpar or are merely pretending to be children/mentally ill/mentally subpar for supposedly provocative and/or satiric effect. This can start to feel a little tired for the remaining 5% who would just like to have a reasonably sane, civil and intelligent conversation, and let's face it, most of these self-styled satirists don't exactly exhibit Swiftian levels of wit and erudition.

I could see the point in someone pretending to be a Truther on a Truther-dominated site and seeing just how stupid they can pretend to be before someone catches on, but what's the point in doing it on a "Debunker" site like this where the general consensus is that anyone who espouses Truther views is either deeply ignorant and/or a troll?

[MikeW]

I could see the point in someone pretending to be a Truther on a Truther-dominated site and seeing just how stupid they can pretend to be before someone catches on, but what's the point in doing it on a "Debunker" site like this where the general consensus is that anyone who espouses Truther views is either deeply ignorant and/or a troll?
I can think of a few possibilities. Maybe it's to see if other truthers will accept you, even if you're talking nonsense; perhaps it's to make the point that many of us here can't tell the difference between real and parody truthers; or maybe the author is just tired of "you're a stupid twoofer" posts and wants to make fun of them in a more creative way.

Whatever the reason, it works for me. Telltale Tom's made some very funny posts & long may they continue.

[JohnG]

I can think of a few possibilities. Maybe it's to see if other truthers will accept you, even if you're talking nonsense; perhaps it's to make the point that many of us here can't tell the difference between real and parody truthers; or maybe the author is just tired of "you're a stupid twoofer" posts and wants to make fun of them in a more creative way.

Whatever the reason, it works for me. Telltale Tom's made some very funny posts & long may they continue.


I understand what you are saying, I just think pretending to be a Truther on a Truther dominated* site would have more bite than on a Debunker dominated site. As far as testing skeptics to see if they can tell real "Truthers" from, um, "False Truthers", I think there's a big difference between being able to determine whether or not 9/11 was an inside job and whether or not some anonymous poster is being completely sincere about their own opinions and viewpoints. Don't forget also that there have been plenty of Truthers who have sincerely said the sorts breathtakingly dumb things that a Troll/Satirist would dismiss as "giving the game away".

Or to put it another way; Truthers are stranger than fiction;)**




* by "dominated" I simply mean a site where the majority of posters fall into a certain ideological camp, not necessarily that the owners/admins/mods of the site also fall into the same camp.

** Alas, a quick Google search confirms that I did not coin that clever phrase. Oh well, just like I always say, "there's nothing new under the sun".

[MikeW]

I just think pretending to be a Truther on a Truther dominated* site would have more bite than on a Debunker dominated site.
You're right, of course, but maybe Telltale Tom just wants to have some easy fun here. And why not? Posts like this (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5915245&postcount=48) are just as cutting as the comments most other people would make. I guess all I'm saying is it's a good joke, let's just allow him to run with it.

[beachnut]

So we are up at 1194 petitions signers for the ae911truth in two and half months, which means there is almost 2 a day. ...

Pity Kamal only spoke about WTC 7 as I would like to have heard him explain how the WTC 1 and 2 could not have collapsed from these small fires.
ae911truthlies find two morons/month. Is this your post and run update on stupidity, or how Gage fools the gullible?

Small fires?; your delusional ae911truthlies are small time liars.

8 years and all you have is 1194 fools who can't make rational conclusions on 911. A list copied and archived for all time; we have at best a list of who is buying beer for a life time of shame, at worse fools who disrespect out of stupidity the lives of those lost on 911.

[sheeplesnshills]

So we are up at 1194 petitions signers for the ae911truth in two and half months, which means there is almost 2 a day. At this rate we should reach 2,000 just before the 10th anniversary and 5,000 by the 15th anniversary.

Check out the latest video of the May 2010 double header of ae911truth and Firefighters911truith. There is a link on the ae911truth web site to a 2hr 30 min video. It is a wonderfully orchestrated presentation. Richard Gage, the Architect of Destruction, leads a congregation of believers. He made a joint presentation with his disciples. These were a firefighter expert, who claims to have been nearly part of the 9/11 recovery effort and has written a book, and a structural engineer expert, Kamal Obeid ( I looked for him on line and all I could find is that in April 2008 he was working on a project that was resurfacing a tennis court,) and he was joined by a demolition "expert" and he once worked for Americas biggest demolition company for two and a half years where he was a qualified explosives "loader" and he has also written a book.

I think these books should be called " The Books of Truth"

I particularly liked the Collection. Midway through the event, at the transition between the evidence on WTC 7 and WTC 1 and 2 there was the Collection. Richard thanks the audience for paying the entrance fee and then tells everyone how much they need monthly subs and how much they need . They then they circulated the symbolic black boxes and asked everyone in the audience to put in a twenty.! It was so well done, it brought a tear to my eye.

Richard Gage was very proud that they now have 40 structural engineers from around the world who have signed the petition, which I find quite amazing. Although Kamal said that this number was pathetic. Pity Kamal only spoke about WTC 7 as I would like to have heard him explain how the WTC 1 and 2 could not have collapsed from these small fires.


This is sarcasm, right? :confused:

[CORed]

1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration

Where to truthers get the idea that falling objects taking the "path of greatest resistance" is evidence of anything at all? If I hold a little rock above a big rock and release it, it falls on the big rock. I guess truthers would expect the falling little rock to swerve and go around the big rock, so as to take the "path of least resistance".

[DGM]

Where to truthers get the idea that falling objects taking the "path of greatest resistance" is evidence of anything at all? If I hold a little rock above a big rock and release it, it falls on the big rock. I guess truthers would expect the falling little rock to swerve and go around the big rock, so as to take the "path of least resistance".
I'd like to see them prove it actually happened. The building did not fall in the "path of greatest resistance". Not by a long shot.

[Telltale Tom]

Where to truthers get the idea that falling objects taking the "path of greatest resistance" is evidence of anything at all? If I hold a little rock above a big rock and release it, it falls on the big rock. I guess truthers would expect the falling little rock to swerve and go around the big rock, so as to take the "path of least resistance".

So you admit that the big rock provides the greatest resistance to the little rock's downward trajectory. And so you would be surprised if the little rock fell through the big rock or demolished the big rock. It sounds like you are a Heiwa supporter and you should sign the ae9111truth petition.

It is poor analogies such as yours that give the ae911truth the belief to continue. thank you.