Tory lead continues to shrink

[Undesired Walrus]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jkX3eIqmfHR3ARoUuIx3tBdnuQgA

The Tory lead has shrunk (In this poll at least) to just 6 points, with just ten weeks left before the likely general election.

Is a hung parliament going to happen for the first time in 40 years? If so, with whom?

[INRM]

Where do all the parties in England stand?

[Fiona]

on the head of a pin, so far as I can tell

[andyandy]

I'm conflicted on this

1. It would be an absolute travesty if Labour win after right royally screwing up the entire country for the past decade.

2. It will be a travesty if Nu-Conservatives with their faux-concern for any social provision win, masking the same old pull-the-ladder-up-jack rich boy agenda

3. It will be a disaster if we have a hung parliament - we need massive massive action over the next 4 years to tackle our debt burden. If we have a hung parliament you can kiss goodbye to any AAA rating and look forward to financial catastophy as the parties squabble amongst themselves for the next 5 years.

I'm going to vote for the Greens, but god knows what's best for the country......

[Arcade22]

I'm going to vote for the Greens...

How come?

[Undesired Walrus]

I'm conflicted on this

1. It would be an absolute travesty if Labour win after right royally screwing up the entire country for the past decade.


I can't help seeing this as hyperbole. The national minimum wage, the abolition of Clause 28, paternity leave, 18-months to 18-weeks, civil partnerships, 8% reduction in crime, the lowest unemployment during a recession in the last half-century, the ban on cluster bombs and surestart are among their achievements.

[commandlinegamer]

I vote V (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409)

[andyandy]

How come?

well, i actually agree with some of their policies! Not all of them, and I'm not even that big an environmentalist, but in terms of social policy they're the only left of centre party left in England.....

[andyandy]

I can't help seeing this as hyperbole. The national minimum wage, the abolition of Clause 28, paternity leave, 18-months to 18-weeks, civil partnerships, 8% reduction in crime, the lowest unemployment during a recession in the last half-century, the ban on cluster bombs and surestart are among their achievements.

hmmm... I'll give you paternity, minimum wage, surestart (the idea at least is good..), cluster bombs, pro gay rights, crime (though god knows which statistics to believe - labour has spent a decade abusing them....)

But

10 years of a lassaiz faire "market knows best" race to the bottom with New York leading to the nationalisation (through implicit guarantee or explicit take over) of the entire UK banking system. Leaving the country with an unimaginably severe debt burden that will constrain all social provision for years if not decades.

The PFI mortaging of future spending as a balance sheet trick

The child protection hysteria which is massively damaging all adult-child social interaction and the entire voluntary sector...

Starting an illegal war with god knows how many hundreds of thousands dead

being complicit in wanton abuse of basic human rights re extrajudicial kidnap and torture

Labour will leave the country in an absolute dire state. And I think that's how legacies should be judged.

[Arcade22]

well, i actually agree with some of their policies! Not all of them, and I'm not even that big an environmentalist, but in terms of social policy they're the only left of centre party left in England.....

And what issues do find to be the most important?

[Architect]

Where do all the parties in England stand?

Find us an "English" party and we'll tell you.

[Undesired Walrus]

well, i actually agree with some of their policies! Not all of them, and I'm not even that big an environmentalist, but in terms of social policy they're the only left of centre party left in England.....

What are they in favour of? Nationalisation of industry, privitisation? Pulling out of Afghanistan? Increasing the minimum wage (If so, how)? Looking up their policies online, they seem to be remarkably vague.

[geni]

I vote V (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409)

You can't. V wouldn't accept leadership by people apointed through democractic election as a legitimate system of goverment. He would also reject the idea that there is any form of legitimate goverment.

[geni]

Find us an "English" party and we'll tell you.

English democracts. One of the hard right mob.

[Redtail]

2. It will be a travesty if Nu-Conservatives with their faux-concern for any social provision win, masking the same old pull-the-ladder-up-jack rich boy agenda



What does this mean?

[uk_dave]

What does this mean?

"I got mine, so sod the rest of you"

[funk de fino]

Starting an illegal war with god knows how many hundreds of thousands dead

Who else supported that war?

[Undesired Walrus]

Didn't the vast majority of Tories support it in the vote?

[MarkCorrigan]

Quite honestly I'm no fan of the current Labour party, but my attitude is "Not the Tories!".

Seriously. I will only vote Conservative if the alternatives are far right or communist loons. Not just because I am a Socialist but because I know what they did last time around. Dear lord alive, considering the fact that a number of towns in the North and in Wales are STILL reeling from Tory mismanagement of the economy under Thatcher I think it owuld be nothing but bind stupidity to trust them again.

I don't believe "Call-Me-Dave" Cameron's attempt to distance himself from the more right wing members of his party is genuine or even really practical given their aparent (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/16/gay-rights-conservatives-voted-against) disregard (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7639047.stm) for the cultural and social modernisaton taking place in the world. Hell, een when he's railing against such liberal ideas with his apparent desire for some form of middle ground some of the party's more....interesting supporters attack him. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1219488/PETER-HITCHENS-The-Tory-Party-racing-cloud-cuckoo-land--Manchester.html)

Oh, and don't get me started on the scum they associate with in the European Parliament.

[funk de fino]

Didn't the vast majority of Tories support it in the vote?

Yes, and when I went off to war in Iraq, it was a Tory govt and we were short of kit.

same old, same old.........

I think if Labour head back more to the left over the next few months the gap will narrow. The voting reform is a good move IMO. The Tories have nothing to offer except a pleasing on the eye leader and Labour will show this. If they cannot show the UK voter that if you scratch beneath the surface its the same old Tory philosophy, then they do not deserve to be in power.

[Undesired Walrus]

Quite honestly I'm no fan of the current Labour party,


Is anyone? I've been on the verge of cutting up my membership card a few times, but honestly weighing the possibilities of governance in this country, Labour comes out on top.

I suppose one could argue that the concept of New Labour will be effectively destroyed if they lose, and some soul-searching commences before they return to the party of Attlee or Smith, but I think that is as likely to happen in Government as it would out of Government.

[Undesired Walrus]

The voting reform is a good move IMO.

A toss up between AV and FPTP isn't exactly exciting though. I would have preferred a few more choices in there (AV+, for instance).

[funk de fino]

A toss up between AV and FPTP isn't exactly exciting though. I would have preferred a few more choices in there (AV+, for instance).

What do you think of the Scots system?

[andyandy]

And what issues do find to be the most important?

A reversal of the ever creeping privatisation of the health sector

Liberal drugs policy

Ending PFI

Massive scaling down of defence spending including no new trident

Increasing overseas aid budget to 1% of GDP

Abolishment of league tables and SATs

Those are all policies that mark out a difference between the greens and the tories/labour.

[andyandy]

Didn't the vast majority of Tories support it in the vote?

True, and the tories are on the whole a bunch of [.....] as well.

[funk de fino]

A reversal of the ever creeping privatisation of the health sector

Liberal drugs policy

Ending PFI

Massive scaling down of defence spending including no new trident

Increasing overseas aid budget to 1% of GDP

Abolishment of league tables and SATs

Those are all policies that mark out a difference between the greens and the tories/labour.

You forgot the part that, on the whole, they are completely irrelevant.

[andyandy]

You forgot the part that, on the whole, they are completely irrelevant.

what are irrelevant? The Greens or the policies?

I'll admit the Green's won't ever win, is that a reason not to vote for them?

re policies, they'd all go someway to making the country a better place - i'm not sure that's an irrelevance....

[Francesca R]

10 years of a lassaiz faire "market knows best" race to the bottom with [ . . . ] Leaving the country with an unimaginably severe debt burden that will constrain all social provision for years if not decades. How do you reconcile those two? The size of the state has grown hugely since 1997, which is one reason why there's an Athenian-sized budget deficit; hardly laissez faire.

[andyandy]

How do you reconcile those two? The size of the state has grown hugely since 1997, which is one reason why there's an Athenian-sized budget deficit; hardly laissez faire.

Laissez faire with regards to the City - our regulatory system failed on a monumental scale. The ballooning public sector spending (plenty of it on off-balance sheet PFIs) certainly contributes to our pretty dismal financial outlook - but relative to the banking bailout it's a drop in the ocean....

[Francesca R]

Not really. The public guarantees offered to the financial sector were indeed massive but they're not public spending. The bailouts that are include Northern Rock (don't remember how much), RBS and Lloyds (about 1.5% GDP combined I think). Plus they are capital investments not consumption (which is what a lot of public spending is), so pigs might fly they could make money.

Spending on the public payroll and the NHS in particular have led the rise in government outlays. Of course people like the NHS, but they bloody well ought to given the money spent on it (which can't be sustained). The trick here is that even if the Tories promise not to cut money to the NHS, just stopping it from increasing 6% per year will feel like a cut, so Labour stand to benefit from that (if they are in opposition)

[Undesired Walrus]

What do you think of the Scots system?

Do they keep a constituency link?

[Undesired Walrus]

Liberal drugs policy

What kind?

Massive scaling down of defence spending including no new trident



What's their position on Afghanistan, Kosovo etc?

[Darat]

Find us an "English" party and we'll tell you.


There is this one (http://www.conservatives.com/).







































;)

[Corsair 115]

Interestingly, different country, same results.

Conservatives and Liberals remain tied: poll (http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/02/17/ekos-poll.html)

Back in November, the Conservatives held a 36.9 to 27.1 lead over the Liberals. That lead has steadily declined, particulary after the Conservatives prorogued Parliament in December.

[Darat]

I'm quite puzzled as to why the Tories lead has fallen in the polls, given the drubbing the government has been getting, the not great economic situation and so on I'd have thought they'd have maintained, if not increased, their lead.


(And my prediction is still for a Tory government with a workable majority - actual majority not stated to give me some wriggle room with claiming "I got it right" after the election.)

[richardm]

Northern Rock (don't remember how much), RBS and Lloyds <snip> could make money.

Unless the Tories get in and flog them off cheaply, which seems to be one of the current plans.

[Darat]

Unless the Tories get in and flog them off cheaply, which seems to be one of the current plans.

It does show they haven't changed, selling us something we already own.

[funk de fino]

I'm quite puzzled as to why the Tories lead has fallen in the polls, given the drubbing the government has been getting, the not great economic situation and so on I'd have thought they'd have maintained, if not increased, their lead.


(And my prediction is still for a Tory government with a workable majority - actual majority not stated to give me some wriggle room with claiming "I got it right" after the election.)

It may be due to the realisation that its getting to the putting your money where your is mouth stage and some people starting to look at it more realistically. Some of them may be looking back and thinking that maybe Labour are not quite that bad after all.

I'm still waiting for the Cameron morphing into Thatcher gifs.

[funk de fino]

Do they keep a constituency link?

Its a mix of FPTP and PR. Gives you list Mp's and has invariably given us a Parliament where the parties have to work together.

It has the weird effect of seeing the SNP working with the Tories to get stuff done. It does lead however to the fact the the Tories, Labour and the Libs can stop the SNP putting a referendum to the Scottish people on independence.

[Dave Rogers]

I'm quite puzzled as to why the Tories lead has fallen in the polls, given the drubbing the government has been getting, the not great economic situation and so on I'd have thought they'd have maintained, if not increased, their lead.

Perhaps the memory of the electorate isn't as short as the Conservatives would wish, and the election's getting closer. As crunch point comes nearer, people who like to complain at the current government might tend to look back and ask themselves whether they really want the alternative.

Dave

[Darat]

Perhaps the memory of the electorate isn't as short as the Conservatives would wish, and the election's getting closer. As crunch point comes nearer, people who like to complain at the current government might tend to look back and ask themselves whether they really want the alternative.

Dave

I struggle to say that I will vote Labour this time, but there is no way I can vote Tory as I simply do not believe that the party is substantially different to pre-1997. (Although I am in one of the safest Tory seats in the country so it's all a bit moot!) I am tempted to vote for the Liberal Democrats, may as well doubly waste that vote!

[Francesca R]

It does show they haven't changed, selling us something we already own.??

[Darat]

Joke

[Undesired Walrus]

There's no doubt now, the polls are tightening.

Over the last week we’ve had no fewer than five YouGov polls showing the Conservative lead shrinking to only six points, but apart from a 7 point lead from ICM we haven’t had much from other pollsters to see if they are picking up the same trend – Angus Reid tend to show very different Labour figures anyway, and we have no recent historical trend data from Harris to compare.

Tomorrow’s Telegraph however carries the figures from a new Ipsos-MORI poll that shows a very similar lead to YouGov. The topline figures are CON 37%(-3), LAB 32%(nc), LDEM 19%(+3). We have to go all the way back to December 2008 to find a Tory lead as low as five points.

The poll was conducted between Friday and Monday last weekend.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/

Just 5 points! With just 9/10 weeks to go this is exciting.

My half-baked theory for the continued drop in Tory support is that the Conservatives have actually appeared to be the ruling party for the last few years, given their large and continuous lead in the polls and the increasing margilisation of the Labour Party. Cameron seems like the controlling figure and is far more telegenic than Brown. Like Governments, the public may have started to get sick of him. It seems Brown hasn't been hurt in the polls by his bully-reputation, and its possible Cameron's nice guy image isn't all that appealing to Britons who want some meat in their meal.

Or it may be that unemployment is historically low for a recession. Who knows.

[Undesired Walrus]

Bad news for the SNP too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/25/polls-right-alex-salmond-party-over

[Ambrosia]

I am tempted to vote for the Liberal Democrats, may as well doubly waste that vote!


:(

I have always been a Liberal Democrat voter.

I refuse to vote Conservative bcause I remember Thatcher, and then Major making a real mess of things. I naively thought once Labour got in that things might actually you know change, but no same old same old.

I still remember watching election night coverage back when Patten was getting booted out of his safe seat, a crowd was outside the Town Hall or wherever the votes were being counted chanting "Tories out! Tories out!"
not long after that Blair and co. got onto a stage and they played "Things can only get better" as the sun rose.

I remember thinking to myself maybe they're right, despite hating that D:Ream song there was a feeling of euphoria that night....

Fast forward another deacde and here we go again.

I firmly believe that if you got everyone in the entire country to look at the policies and promises of the 3 main political parties and then if everyone voted based on which parties policies most closely lined up with their own, that the Lib Dems would win by a landslide.

Every night I watch a General Election, I am glued to the TV thinking "one time" "one time" ....

Sad thing is that even if it did happen and the government was run by those yellow people, whose emblem is a 7 winged flying worm, would much actually change?

I wonder if there will be BBC footage come election night, of a crowd of Tory supporters, replete with soundbite friendly placards, clustered around a famous landmark of some safe seat Labour city shouting "Labour Out! Labour Out!" and whether they'll be the same shouting people as last time around...

Do you ever wonder the older you get whether there is such a thing as too cynical?

[MarkCorrigan]

:(

I have always been a Liberal Democrat voter.

I refuse to vote Conservative bcause I remember Thatcher, and then Major making a real mess of things. I naively thought once Labour got in that things might actually you know change, but no same old same old.

I still remember watching election night coverage back when Patten was getting booted out of his safe seat, a crowd was outside the Town Hall or wherever the votes were being counted chanting "Tories out! Tories out!"
not long after that Blair and co. got onto a stage and they played "Things can only get better" as the sun rose.

I remember thinking to myself maybe they're right, despite hating that D:Ream song there was a feeling of euphoria that night....

Fast forward another deacde and here we go again.

I firmly believe that if you got everyone in the entire country to look at the policies and promises of the 3 main political parties and then if everyone voted based on which parties policies most closely lined up with their own, that the Lib Dems would win by a landslide.

Every night I watch a General Election, I am glued to the TV thinking "one time" "one time" ....

Sad thing is that even if it did happen and the government was run by those yellow people, whose emblem is a 7 winged flying worm, would much actually change?

I wonder if there will be BBC footage come election night, of a crowd of Tory supporters, replete with soundbite friendly placards, clustered around a famous landmark of some safe seat Labour city shouting "Labour Out! Labour Out!" and whether they'll be the same shouting people as last time around...

Do you ever wonder the older you get whether there is such a thing as too cynical?
I'm a Lib Dib too, signed on member of the party and all, but that's just because they're the most left wing party we have that don't have the words "workers" or "Arthur Scargil" in them.

I might vote LAbour though, purely because they have a better chance of ousting the utter imbecile who is my MP; David Treadinit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Tredinnick_%28politician%29). Stupid piece of slime he is.

[Undesired Walrus]

Tory lead (In one poll) just two points!

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/

[Francesca R]

My untested theory is that increased fear of no overall control of government will help it to be a self-repelling outcome on the day. So that means Tory majority still the most likely IMO. Or if Labour gets back in front, then Labour victory (and Brown would get his "John Major" term)

[Ian Osborne]

I can't help seeing this as hyperbole. The national minimum wage, the abolition of Clause 28, paternity leave, 18-months to 18-weeks, civil partnerships, 8% reduction in crime, the lowest unemployment during a recession in the last half-century, the ban on cluster bombs and surestart are among their achievements.

And the smoking ban.

[Ian Osborne]

I've been on the verge of cutting up my membership card a few times

I cut mine up when we went invaded Iraq.

[andyandy]

Tory lead (In one poll) just two points!

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/

I still would put money on a tory win - the national polling doesn't take into account

1) the disparities of wealth between labour and the tories - the tories have plenty of money to spend on marginals, labour are almost bankrupt (not sure what that says about their ability to run the country if they can't even run their own party....)

2) the expenses scandal - this has disproportionately affected labour simply because there are more sitting labour mps. When it comes to the campaigns, any sitting mp is going to get hammered with all their dirty linnen aired on opposition flyers.....

William Hill have

4/7 A David "call me Dave" Cameron win
6/4 a well-hung parliament
10/1 a victory for Grim Gordo ably assisted by his puppet master overlord, the Prince of Darkness....

[richardm]

2) the expenses scandal - this has disproportionately affected labour simply because there are more sitting labour mps.

True, but on the other hand the bits that have stuck in the minds of the general public are the duck island and the moat cleaning, which does help to recrystallise that image of tories=toffs and damn the rest of you, which helps set the backdrop even if individual MPs can be criticised.

Back when Major won, the polls strongly indicated that there would be a Tory defeat. It seemed that while people secretly wanted to vote Conservative, it was deemed to be a very unpopular choice and so when pollsters asked them how they would vote they lied. But, in the privacy of the polling booth they could vote how they wanted.

I wonder if that kind of thing will play a part this time round as well. Is voting Tory still something to be ashamed of?* Is claiming to vote against Labour thought to be the "right" thing to say to pollsters, and will they do even better in the real poll than the polls think?

*Yes it is. Pull yourself together and vote for someone else.

[Darat]

Wonder how this "confirmation" (as if we didn't already know it) will be played out: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8542744.stm

And it is an important point, this is someone who has been providing huge support for conservative elections campaigns, especially in marginal seats, and since he is also a senior member of the party it can't simply be brushed off (well it can be as I predict we shall see).

[richardm]

(as if we didn't already know it)

So, they've finally admitted it, eh?

Based on this quote:

"As for the future, while the non-dom status will continue for many people in business or public life, David Cameron has said that anyone sitting in the legislature - Lords or Commons - must be treated as resident and domiciled in the UK for tax purposes," he said. "I agree with this change and expect to be sitting in the House of Lords for many years to come."


Does that indicate that he's promising to become domiciled here? Because he's made that promise before:


It had been suggested that when William Hague proposed him for a peerage in 2000 the then Michael Ashcroft had given assurances that he would be resident in Britain for tax purposes.
But in his statement Lord Ashcroft said his undertaking was to "take up permanent residence in the UK again" by the end of that year


- ten years on and he still hasn't quite got around to it.

[Undesired Walrus]

Can someone explain to me what being a non-dom is?

The 'shy Tory' effect may still be in force, but then again there may be a 'shy Labour' effect. Who would really admit to voting Labour these days?

It's possible the polling doesn't take into account the marginals the Tories have been targeting aggressively. Isn't calculating who is going to win based on national polls rather risky, in the same way calculating who is going to win in the States based on national polls (November 2000 anyone?) rather useless?

[commandlinegamer]

I cut mine up when we went invaded Iraq.

I just wish I had had one when they dropped Clause IV so that I could have burned it.

[Undesired Walrus]

The membership card with Clause IV on it or the new one?

[richardm]

Can someone explain to me what being a non-dom is?

It means that you live in the UK, but have arranged your accounts in such a way that you appear to be living in the UK temporarily for tax purposes. So you end up paying tax only on what you earn in Britain which is not necessarily very much if your billions are being earned in Belize.

A bit of blurb about it. (http://www.bba.org.uk/bba/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=828&a=12506) It's deemed to be especially naughty in Ashcroft's case because it was understood that he would have to pay full UK taxes if he got elevated to the peerage. He got his peerage alright and is actually working for - and to some extent paying for - the Tory party, but hasn't followed up on the tax part. And everyone involved knows it's a bit dodgy, to judge from the way they've been studiously avoiding the question for the last ten years.

Edit: Nick Robinson explains it better than I can. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2010/03/the_truth_about_1.html)

[Darat]

The Tories are trying to claim it is no different from Lord Paul's position:

...snip...

Welcoming Lord Ashcroft's statement on Monday, a Conservative Party spokesman said: "It is clear, therefore, that Lord Ashcroft has the same status as several Labour donors including Lord Paul - recently appointed to the Privy Council on the recommendation of Gordon Brown's government."

...snip...

Just had a look and I'm pretty sure that Lord Paul is not the vice-chairman of the Labour party and is not working on the up-coming general election campaign....

[richardm]

Just had a look and I'm pretty sure that Lord Paul is not the vice-chairman of the Labour party and is not working on the up-coming general election campaign....


NO SHUT UP THEY ARE THE SAME AS US THEY ARE JUST AS BAD LOOK!!!

Hmm.

<votes lib dem>

[Darat]

I want a "none of the above" option else I'm not playing!

[commandlinegamer]

The membership card with Clause IV on it or the new one?

The former [1]. Though to be honest, I've never been a Labour member or voter. The aims of the original version might be unrealistic* judging by today's standards, but I get a sense of the dynamism in those early years of the socialist movement in Britain. By comparison the new version they came up with is just weazelly, typical New Labour guff. I feel sick reading it.

* - I still support the nationalisation of the utilities, rail, etc.

[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause_IV

[Undesired Walrus]

By comparison the new version they came up with is just weazelly, typical New Labour guff. I feel sick reading it.

I like it: "The rights we enjoy reflect the duties that we owe".

* - I still support the nationalisation of the utilities, rail, etc.

[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause_IV

Out of interest, why? I'm uneducated on the issue.

[Undesired Walrus]

So you end up paying tax only on what you earn in Britain which is not necessarily very much if your billions are being earned in Belize.


Is he not paying taxes on them in the country where he earns them?

[Darat]

Is he not paying taxes on them in the country where he earns them?

Not according to the Prime Minister of Belize: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/tropical-storm-hits-ashcroft-1811697.html

[commandlinegamer]

Out of interest, why? I'm uneducated on the issue.

I just feel essential services should be operated by the state for the common good, not to make a few people rich; profits reinvested in the utilities or distributed to the taxpayer.

[Francesca R]

I just feel essential services should be operated by the state for the common goodThey have public service requirements that are intended to achieve just that. Public ownership isn't necessarily a good way to achieve it (and some people believe that public ownership is a recipe for waste and failure to achieve it).

[richardm]

They have public service requirements that are intended to achieve just that. Public ownership isn't necessarily a good way to achieve it (and some people believe that public ownership is a recipe for waste and failure to achieve it).

It doesn't look like private ownership has exactly been a rip-roaring success either. It's just that now we get to see poor service and high prices coupled with what seem to be rather healthy profits for shareholders.

[Undesired Walrus]

Didn't Blair privatise huge swathes of the NHS? The Government have no control over the buildings themselves, as I understand it, just what occurs within it.

[Francesca R]

It doesn't look like private ownership has exactly been a rip-roaring success either. It's just that now we get to see poor service and high prices coupled with what seem to be rather healthy profits for shareholders.Well not BT or BA shareholders, and certainly not Railtrack shareholders . . .

[richardm]

Well not BT or BA shareholders, and certainly not Railtrack shareholders . . .

Well not at the moment but they have certainly been there in the past (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/nov/04/ladbrokegrove.transport). That they've managed to widdle it all away hardly improves the impression that it's safer in private hands.

[Francesca R]

The British can **** up anything. *checks for her NZ passport*