Choosing a Martial Art

[Eddie Dane]

NOTICE: I first posted this in the sports forum. But since there is so little traffic over there, I'm reposting it here. Sorry if it doesn't quite fit the description of the forum.

Hi,

My wife and children have forced me into a lifestyle of healthy food, regular sleep and no alcohol binges.

I have taken up running and I reckon I'm in reasonably good shape for a guy who's pushing forty.

In my teens I did Shotokan Karate.
In my twenties I challenged myself by doing kickboxing for two years. I was not good at it as I have a strong panic reflex when people start to hit me. Can't help but close my eyes when under attack. I specifically took up the sport to see if I could learn to control this reflex.

As you may have guessed, I'm not exceptionally tough.

Now I'm thinking of doing some martial arts again.

My criteria are:

A practical art that could help me in self-defence situation. But I cannot stomach getting clobbered by football-hooligans twice a week. I've done that and I'm too old for it. (I'm referring to the lessons here, I don't get in fights usually)
No formalised crap; There is something deeply wrong about learning reflexes that don't work in real life. In hindsight I did myself a disservice with the Shotokan.
Woo free. You know what I mean.


So, next week I'm going boxing with a friend. See how I like it. I suspect that I will like focusing on punching (karate has turned me into a kicking machine, punching always remained weak). But I also know that I will eventually think it too restricted.

A colleague of mine is starting Krav Maga. I like the idea, but suspect it is a "self defence" course. And with my little experience in MA, you don't learn to fight from such a course. Does anybody here have experience with KM?

And last but not least I've been looking at BJJ. It is tought in my hometown and after spending two nights watching youtube video's about it, I'm getting interested.

Is this something you can start from scratch at my age? I think I can only go to class once a week. (job, kids, you know).

What say you, JREF experts?

[Neally]

Most Kenpo classes are Woo free. I'd recommend observing several classes to get a feel. Shop around before committing.

[Lothian]

Hi,

My wife and children have forced me into a lifestyle of healthy food, regular sleep and no alcohol binges.

What say you, JREF experts?Divorce.

[Bikewer]

Those of us with some background always recommending first deciding what you want out of an art or school of instruction. Looks like you have good ideas on that, and that's a good first step.
Then, you might look around as to what's actually available in your area, and check out the various schools. Most legit places will let you observe a class or two, and you can get an idea if the instructor knows what he/she is doing.
You can look for warning signs that the guy is suspect; do all the students refer to him as "master"? Does he allow a free exchange of ideas? That sort of thing.

As to actual practical styles.... Kenpo as listed tends to be good. The various flavors of "Mixed Martial Art" and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu as well, but watch for a tendency to favor training for competition. Krav Maga, the Israeli-derived art, is meant to be utterly practical. Likewise Jeet Kun Do, (Bruce Lee's synthesized style) if you can find a legit instructor. The various forms of Filipino-derived arts are practical as well, with a strong emphasis on weapons.
There are so many different styles and arts now it's difficult to keep track, and anyone can string together some Asian-sounding syllables and hang out a shingle...
Kajukenshorinbo-ryu or some such nonsense.

[MattusMaximus]

Bikewer is right. You need to shop around - in many cases, the specific dojo or instructor can be more important than the specific styles. While some styles have advantages over others (for example, BJJ is good for ground work & grappling, boxing is good for punching, while judo/aikido/ju-jitsu is good for joint locks & throws), one thing all styles suffer from - to one degree or another - is incompetent instructors who hang out a shingle and call themselves "master".

I've been practicing martial arts for over 20 years - I started with karate, TKD, and kung fu, and now I've been doing aikido for many years. I also have a bit of BJJ training as well, so I'm pretty well-rounded. In all that time, I have seen many good & bad instructors, and some who were downright woo-ish.

So, essentially, buyer beware.

[Ziggurat]

What say you, JREF experts?

Check out Aikido. It's mostly blocks and throws, you won't get a beating during practice (you'll get thrown a lot, but part of the training is learning to roll so the throws don't hurt). If you're hoping on defending yourself in a real fight there's probably no substitute for practices in which you actually get beaten, but if you're mostly looking for a way to keep fit, it'll certainly do the job. Lessons usually begin with stretching exercises, which is particularly useful if you're not a spring chicken.

[cornsail]

I hear Tae Bo is hella hardcore and deadly

[cornsail]

Aikido is not very practical AFAIK. A lot of the techniques like intercepting strikes and turning them into throws are only realistic when you know exactly what the other guy is going to do. Then again there's probably some good aspects to it too...

(first response was a joke btw!)

[Beerina]

Now I'm thinking of doing some martial arts again.

My criteria are:

A practical art that could help me in self-defence situation.



Well, that rules out 2-handed greatswords, a jabbing polearm device that made people master of the battlefield, coupled with a short sword should you make a major league goof and let somebody within the end of the sword.

[MattusMaximus]

Aikido is not very practical AFAIK. A lot of the techniques like intercepting strikes and turning them into throws are only realistic when you know exactly what the other guy is going to do. Then again there's probably some good aspects to it too...

(first response was a joke btw!)

Well, aikido can be practical, just as pretty much any martial art can be practical if practiced properly - but then again, any martial art can be taught very poorly and give the student a false sense of security. I've seen this happen with people in karate, TKD, judo, aikido, BJJ... you name it.

One more thing: one should not confuse "martial art" with "self defense". The two are often conflated when they shouldn't be.

[MattusMaximus]

Well, that rules out 2-handed greatswords, a jabbing polearm device that made people master of the battlefield, coupled with a short sword should you make a major league goof and let somebody within the end of the sword.

Don't forget this guy. (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Phil_Elmore)

Had to do it before JoeyDonuts beat me to it :)

[Segnosaur]

I currently have a brown belt in Ju Jitsu. Like you, I'm not a particularly strong puncher, etc., and I have slower reflexes than most. However, I compensate by having a better memory.

From what I can tell, Ju Jitsu one of the most 'practical' martial arts out there.... covers a wide range of things (including throws, grappling, sparring, and locks), and is described by my instructor as "street fighting" (seems nothing is taboo... there are even techniques where you can use head buts and biting...). Of course, there's no guarantee that, confronted by any attacker that you'd actually be of the mind to actually use the techniques...

We don't do any 'woo' in the class (Well, there are formalities like bowing before and after a session, but we don't discuss Qi).

It can be rather rough. (The throws can be tough to handle when you get dropped a couple of dozen times in a class.)

[IchabodPlain]

I did Hapkido for about 7 years in my adolescence, and looking back, it was OK. It shared a lot with Aikido (at my school they taught that as well) but like another poster already said, not much in the way of practicality. I didn't find trying to intercept a punch at full-speed, then turning it into a joint lock and then throwing someone very practical. Also, a lot reminded me of a scene from Napoleon Dynamite: Grab my arm. Other arm -- MY other arm.

One of my best friends competes in professional MMA, and takes kickboxing and BJJ. I've sat in on some BJJ classes and found them to be really practical. Also very good for staying in shape. It may be a little rough though. Boxing also is good; it can be limiting, but you will learn how to punch, you will learn footwork, and you will get a work out from class. Overall, I definitely recommend sitting in on a class and getting a feel for any place which you're thinking about attending.

[Her Dark Star]

Boxing is always a good starting point but if you don't like taking punches and panic then I'm afraid that you're going to suffer. Krav Maga is a very practically focussed scystem, if it works they use it. I've trained with a few KM practitioners (I have a lot of jewish friends) and the training tends to be taken pretty seriously, not formal but you train as realistically as possible. It's not a pretty art but if you're looking for effective combat it's pretty good.
Aikido can be awesome, had the privilege to train with an exceptional teacher a few years ago, however it is a very technical art and it takes a long time to get up to what I would call a 'street effective' level. In recent years there has been a large influx of people who have put a lot of woo in it. Some of the softer styles are genuine but it can be difficult to tell them apart sometimes from the 'I throw you with me Chi' types. Yoshinkan style is very effective though, my police self defence training incorporated a lot of Yoshinkan techniques and I can tell you from experience that they work.
Jiu Jitsu is another good art, lots of good strikes and locks but also a lot of good groundwork that is missing from many arts. And it is true that an awful lot of fights will end up on the ground. The only problem with its ground work is that it tends to assume you're against a single opponent, using both arms and legs to get an arm bar on them is powerful but not good while their mates are kicking you in the head.
MMA does tend to be competition focused as most of the attention it has gained has come from cage fighting/UFC etc. Still a decent grounding in a wide variety of techniques.
There are too many arts to mention really, see what's local and try a few lessons, the quality of the teacher is often far more important than the actual art. In the end there are only so many way that the body can move and you do tend to find that at high enough levels the difference between a lot of arts starts to blur.

[ForWhatItsWorth]

I'd recommend BJJ based on your somewhat self-depricating description, as the entire format was originally designed to allow a smaller or less powerful individual defeat a larger opponent. The issue with choosing a specialty, is that there is no one that is perfectly we rounded and will allow you to defeat someone regardless of how things go down. As for the most successful method I've seen in regards to being a pure specialists, it would, odddly enough, be collegiate-style wrestling. This is based on performance under the rules (which don't apply in a street fight) of professional MMA. Wrestling simply teaches speed and control and if you have to learn somehting first, this allows you to avoid getting smashed early on the learning curve. You won't send anyone home crying to their Momma with it, but you will prevent them from injuring you or others. And once you have the fundamentals of that down, you can mix in some boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai for stand-up proficiency and take some basic BJJ classes to learn to finish someone on the ground. I'm not an expert in any of these practices, just an observer of styles and the wrestling base has the generally best performance, plus it shouldn't be hard to find a school in your area that can teach it to you. Also, when it comes to the course, as people have said, it comes down to the instructors, if they are staunch purists who dismiss any other style, they likely will be blind to weaknesses in their own practice, so take them with a grain of salt. I took a course for several months and what made it great was the instructor had a general fascination with all styles, so he would indulge any kind of defense or attack you thought may work and would attempt to integrate it as part of his lesson. I wish you all the best, and if you take any kind of submission based class, always tap when you're caught, there's no reward for getting a dislocated joint in practice, and passing out is over rated. Good luck.

[drkitten]

My criteria are:

A practical art that could help me in self-defence situation. But I cannot stomach getting clobbered by football-hooligans twice a week. I've done that and I'm too old for it. (I'm referring to the lessons here, I don't get in fights usually)
No formalised crap; There is something deeply wrong about learning reflexes that don't work in real life. In hindsight I did myself a disservice with the Shotokan.
Woo free. You know what I mean.


I think I feel compelled to point out that "woo" is a function of the teacher and not of the art. I have studied the neijia (Chinese martial arts) for a number of years. Normally, these arts -- especially taiji -- are wickedly, wickedly woo-heavy ("if you hold this position for ten years, you'll glow green and become bulletproof"), but I had the good fortune to study under a Marine who studied them for their combat effectiveness and had no tolerance for BS at all.

And they are/were astonishingly effective; I found out just how effective the reflexes are/were in real life when I was auditing a hard-as-nails kung fu class a few years later, and the teacher startled me and found himself sailing through the air in the general direction of Mecca.

So I would actually recommend any martial art at all as long as you like the specific teacher's approach.

[dudalb]

I suggest Tai Kwan Leep.

[Wudang]

I suggest Tai Kwan Leep.

A rip-off of Nikedo - the way of the running shoe.

[thaiboxerken]

Muay Thai and BJJ.

[GreNME]

My wife and children have forced me into a lifestyle of healthy food, regular sleep and no alcohol binges.

My condolences.

Seriously, though, I concur with those who are saying to shop around, figure out what you want out of an instructor/school, and that a lot of the woo is going to depend more on an instructor than it will the martial art in many cases.

That said: you might want to check out some basic boxing for some initial training, but be aware that you'll eventually be training full-contact (with pads) but it won't be immediate in most training I'm aware of. Someone mentioned Jeet Kun Do in an earlier post, and that is predominantly a "practical application" martial art when taught by legitimate instructors. You'll also find a lot of basis for JKD in Wing Chun Kung Fu classes, and you'll likely be more able to find a legitimate instructor for that. If you're looking for more likely to be found for a good workout, Kenpo or Aikido are both good options. Evaluate the instructor by sitting in a class if they'll let you, or ask if you can observe a class.

[cornsail]

Well, aikido can be practical, just as pretty much any martial art can be practical if practiced properly - but then again, any martial art can be taught very poorly and give the student a false sense of security. I've seen this happen with people in karate, TKD, judo, aikido, BJJ... you name it.

Um I disagree. You can practice certain martial arts techniques ("properly") all day long and they still wont be practical or realistic. It's not very useful to say that any martial art "can be practical if practiced properly", because, while there may be a little truth to it, there are still huge differences. BJJ is more practical than Tai Chi, I don't care how good the instructors are.

But yeah, a good training environment and good instructors do make a big difference.

[The Almond]

I've been practicing a variety of martial arts for about 9 years now. I started with Tae Kwon Do, primarily because it really helped me with my weak points (flexibility, kicking, distance fighting). I also had an incredibly good instructor who was an expert at a wide range of self defense and grappling arts. So let me add to what the other folks are saying; 50% of what you get out of the martial arts is the instructor, not the letters on the sign out front. The other 50% is your commitment to training. Style is of very little importance. With the appropriate instructor, Hapkido can also be extremely effective, although it will take several years to develop real-world defense skills. Some HKD instructors just teach watered down TKD techniques, while others teach only wrist throws (which are pretty, but useless). Find the right instructor. Also, because it hasn't been mentioned, the most fun you'll have in a martial art is in Capoeria. Of course, it's an utterly useless martial art, but the flips, jumps and rolls are a lot of fun to do.

[Eddie Dane]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

I'm getting pretty psyched. next Monday I'm going boxing with my buddy Mohamed.
If I like it I'll keep at it for a couple of months. I'm still determined to learn to punch properly and deal with my annoying flinching.

In a few months a new KM course will start and I will go there with my colleague Shlomo.

In short, my agenda in the foreseeable future consist of punching Muslims and chocking Jews.:D

In between I'll pop into a BJJ class, but I knew a guy who did JJ and I remember a lot of complicated arm locks and such ( he was showing off). With my limited free time, I'll go for simple and effective.

By all means, keep the info coming. My hometown offers quite a variety of styles and I'm willing to follow advise and shop around. It's fun, after all.

[Eddie Dane]

Don't forget this guy. (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Phil_Elmore)

Had to do it before JoeyDonuts beat me to it :)

Christ.

I went to this guy's website and he has a whole special section ranting about homeless people.

Too much Ayn Rand will screw with your value system, I guess.

[Kevin_Lowe]

We're recycling content from old martial arts threads anyway, so here goes. The core of all martial arts woo is the claim that you can learn to fight without actually fighting. You can't.

Every time people fight with cameras running, people who do not regularly train with full speed and power against resisting opponents comprehensively fail to make their "skills" work.

Judo people wrestle with full speed and power against resisting opponents every class. Same with BJJ, sambo, greco-roman wrestling and so on. Boxers, muay thai people, kyokushinkai karate people, san shou people and so on similarly make hitting each other a regular part of their training. All of these groups have proven that they can make their stuff work with cameras rolling.

No other group ever has.

Woo-woos get very threatened when you point this out, and come up with all sorts of hilarious and purely theoretical reasons why they think their training methods might work better under specific scenarios, or anecdotes about this one time when they totally owned someone, but the bottom line is that evidence of effectiveness isn't there. The day someone uses aikido, neijia, Japanese jujitsu or whatever on a competently resisting opponent with cameras rolling I'll sit up and take notice but until then the available evidence say that they are all woo.

So Point #1 is: It's how you train. You can limit the moves allowed and still develop effective skills if you train with full speed and power against a resisting opponent - judo and BJJ prove that. However if you never or almost never train with full speed and power against a resisting opponent the available evidence says that you suck.

Point #2 is: Once you train properly, you converge on a fairly small and consistent set of techniques that work. Silly martial arts techniques like flying triple kicks, standing wrist lock throws or pretending to be a monkey don't survive competition, but they thrive in environments where looking cool is more important than being able to fight.

Point #3 is: If they have to come up with excuses as to why they don't enter tournaments where techniques are used with full speed and power on resisting opponents, they are woo-woos.

Conclusion: Boxing is an excellent choice, although it may be too rough for you at your age once you get to the stage of hitting each other. BJJ is also an excellent choice, and possibly a better fit for you given your age and fitness. Krav Maga is one of those styles where every time you get to actually see it, it's total woo, but lots of people are convinced that around the corner or in Israel or somewhere there is the Real Krav Maga that works. If they don't train with full speed and power against resisting opponents then walk away, and they almost certainly won't.

[Her Dark Star]

Krav Maga is one of those styles where every time you get to actually see it, it's total woo, but lots of people are convinced that around the corner or in Israel or somewhere there is the Real Krav Maga that works.

Agreed with almost everything you say except I'm interested in what makes you think the quoted bit above. There is no mention of magic, mysticism, ki, chi, spirit or anything else in Krav Maga as far as I'm aware. About the only principle in KM is 'Use whatever technique leaves you standing and your assailants incapable of attacking you again'. It has no other purpose, it doesn't claim to make you a better person, teach you secrets of the universe or make invulnerable. Just wondering where you got the 'woo factor' from as in my experience it's the least woo art I've encountered (apart from perhaps boxing).

[rockinkt]

Kajukenshorinbo-ryu or some such nonsense.

Hey! I've got a mauve belt with purple rhinestone accents in Kajukenshorinbo-ryu. ;)
That makes me a Gold Eagle Woo Woo - the second highest rank.
It is rumoured that Richard Simmons is the highest ranking living practitioner.
My Master says I will earn the Glittering Tiara of a Thousand Hidden Dragons if I practice hard for another week or two at $1250.00 per lesson. :p

[Wudang]

My Master says I will earn the Glittering Tiara of a Thousand Hidden Dragons if I practice hard for another week or two at $1250.00 per lesson. :p

With your hair? Darling, please! Accessorize with earings, I think.

[NWO Sentryman]

take up shotokan again. It's pretty good. :cool:

[Leif Roar]

I'm going to be silly and suggest glima (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVGB1Z3btIY). Your chance of finding an instructor is practically null, and the only one of your criteria it fits is being free of woo, but -- hey, in what other martial arts can you be a bona fide king?

[Alferd_Packer]

Personally I admire the art form of the Thompson Submachine gun.

the Classic M1921 and the M1928 models are my favorites.

As far and unarmed martial arts are concerned, I think it matters less what the style is and more how you feel about it.

[Segnosaur]

Judo people wrestle with full speed and power against resisting opponents every class. Same with BJJ, sambo, greco-roman wrestling and so on. Boxers, muay thai people, kyokushinkai karate people, san shou people and so on similarly make hitting each other a regular part of their training.
One issue is though... are the type of hits (or other actions) that they do in greco-roman wrestling or boxing the most effective ones you need in a "real fight". Boxing and wrestling have rules of conduct. You might get experience in being able to punch and/or take a punch, but in general they frown on things like head butts, groin kicks, etc. that would be more effective.

That reminds me of an episode of "King of the Hill"... Hank wanted his son Bobby to learn to box, but the only course that was available was a "women's self defense" course. Hank doesn't learn this until he tries boxing with Bobby, and Bobby yells "That's not your purse!" and kicks his father in the groin.

The day someone uses aikido, neijia, Japanese jujitsu or whatever on a competently resisting opponent with cameras rolling I'll sit up and take notice but until then the available evidence say that they are all woo.
Not sure if all Ju Jitsu instruction is the same, but the class I'm taking contains elements of boxing and wrestling in it. And, in fact there are actually Ju Jitsu competitions as well.

(In fact, I believe Judo is actually an offshoot of Ju Jitsu, with basically some of the more 'dangerous' elements removed.)

Point #3 is: If they have to come up with excuses as to why they don't enter tournaments where techniques are used with full speed and power on resisting opponents, they are woo-woos.
I agree that there are 'woo' martial artists. But on the other hand, it is possible that in some cases techniques cannot be done with full speed/power because they could cause significant damage.

As I said, my Ju Jitsu course covers wrestling/grappling and sparing. Some of this is done following something resembling "competition". On the other hand, we also cover techniques such as head butts, punches to the groin, eye-gouging, even biting. Granted, we may not have any definitive proof that kicking someone in the groin would work as a defensive tactic, but suspect it would. Trouble is, there's no easy way to simulate that with "full speed and power", so in many cases we have to effectively "pull our punches".

[lomiller]

I think I’ll second the boxing suggestion. The essence of good self defense is to keep things simple and stay on your feet.

Ground fighting is a nice addition, but I’d suggest not confusing combat/mma style fighting with self defense. One on one someone with lots of ground fighting experience will usually beat someone with little experience, but you can’t count on a one on one fight in self defense situations. Experience in avoiding takedowns will be the biggest thing you get from groundfighting. It’s important to have some idea what to do on the ground, but mostly you should be looking to get back on your feat asap.


We're recycling content from old martial arts threads anyway, so here goes. The core of all martial arts woo is the claim that you can learn to fight without actually fighting. You can't.

Every time people fight with cameras running, people who do not regularly train with full speed and power against resisting opponents comprehensively fail to make their "skills" work.


This is certainly part of the truth, but not the entire story. No matter what martial art you train in you need to balance realism with injury. To this end most styles will either limit how hard you can do your techniques or which techniques you can use in sparing. You should probably get a combination of both, but even that is no substitute for experience in real fights. Grappling techniques typically have a comparative advantage on this front because they allow you to go full power with relatively few restrictions on technique and rely on you to tap out before getting hurt.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Agreed with almost everything you say except I'm interested in what makes you think the quoted bit above. There is no mention of magic, mysticism, ki, chi, spirit or anything else in Krav Maga as far as I'm aware. About the only principle in KM is 'Use whatever technique leaves you standing and your assailants incapable of attacking you again'. It has no other purpose, it doesn't claim to make you a better person, teach you secrets of the universe or make invulnerable. Just wondering where you got the 'woo factor' from as in my experience it's the least woo art I've encountered (apart from perhaps boxing).

It's their training methods that are woo, in most cases. They never train their "deadly" moves with full speed and power against a resisting opponent, thus they aren't going to be able to make them work in the heat of an actual fight.

That said, I believe they also place a great deal of faith in low-percentage moves like eye and groin attacks, which are great if they work but which require the kind of precise muscle control that is the first thing to go out the window when adrenaline hits.

A popular conceit amongst woos is that what a martial art is "designed for" matters. It doesn't. Judo was designed to be a safe sport, and I'd back a judoka over someone who wasted their time on krav maga. What matters is how you train first and foremost. Good training rapidly weeds out bad techniques.

One issue is though... are the type of hits (or other actions) that they do in greco-roman wrestling or boxing the most effective ones you need in a "real fight". Boxing and wrestling have rules of conduct. You might get experience in being able to punch and/or take a punch, but in general they frown on things like head butts, groin kicks, etc. that would be more effective.

The problem is that if you don't train with full speed and power against a resisting opponent your training is mostly useless, so I'd question whether they are actually more effective ways to spend you training time.


Not sure if all Ju Jitsu instruction is the same, but the class I'm taking contains elements of boxing and wrestling in it. And, in fact there are actually Ju Jitsu competitions as well.

(In fact, I believe Judo is actually an offshoot of Ju Jitsu, with basically some of the more 'dangerous' elements removed.)

That's exactly right. Judo is jujitsu with the dangerous elements removed or defanged, but because it's been defanged you can train it with full speed and power against a resisting opponent.


I agree that there are 'woo' martial artists. But on the other hand, it is possible that in some cases techniques cannot be done with full speed/power because they could cause significant damage.

Oh absolutely. There are tonnes of techniques which are far more immediately effective than judo throws. The problem is that until we create robot training partners we can't train those techniques properly, so the guy who spends all day practising a jujitsu technique which would break someone's arm is going to get reamed by the guy who spends all day practising a judo technique that just slams him into the mat.


As I said, my Ju Jitsu course covers wrestling/grappling and sparing. Some of this is done following something resembling "competition". On the other hand, we also cover techniques such as head butts, punches to the groin, eye-gouging, even biting. Granted, we may not have any definitive proof that kicking someone in the groin would work as a defensive tactic, but suspect it would. Trouble is, there's no easy way to simulate that with "full speed and power", so in many cases we have to effectively "pull our punches".

Yep, it's not fighting at that point, it's live action role-playing. Or martial-looking ballroom dancing. Sadly you cannot learn to fight without actually fighting.

I've said before that I really, really wish that live-action roleplaying with compliant partners gave you functional fighting skills. I'd much rather dance around in silk tai chi pyjamas than get teabagged by sweaty weightlifters who want to rip my limbs off. I'd also love to develop functional stand-up fighting skills without getting my legs kicked in by kickboxers and/or my nose pushed in by boxers. However the unfortunate reality is that if you don't train a given skill with full speed and power against a resisting opponent, you simply don't develop the skill.

[rockinkt]

With your hair? Darling, please! Accessorize with earings, I think.

I am not eligible for the earings until I recruit another 6 people to the dojo.
If they each recruit another six people - I get diamond earings.
Master says I need to buy some self-improvement tapes soon though... :)

[cornsail]

Style is of very little importance.

Of course, [Capoeria is] an utterly useless martial art[...]

I think you just contradicted yourself.

[cornsail]

nice Capoeria knockout here, btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6oiADjOdFg
(not disagreeing that it's far from the most practical style)

[GreNME]

nice Capoeria knockout here, btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6oiADjOdFg
(not disagreeing that it's far from the most practical style)

This one is nice as well:

R8FJyScbV6s

:p

I've seen some pretty nice Capoeira demonstrations before, but as a martial art is seems to be very much an "art" as a focus. That isn't a bad thing, and for someone who wants a top-notch cardio workout Capoeira is probably a stellar style to look into. The exercise and general fitness of martial arts training tends to be a central question I look at for offering my opinion on a style someone should look into. I tend to discourage "I want something that enables me to beat people up" mentality, because for the most part that's a poor reason to get into any martial art.

[Abooga]

Choosing a Martial Art? Just don´t choose instructor Bobby Joe Blythe...

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88535

Have you guys seen that? It´s quite sick, be warned.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I've seen some pretty nice Capoeira demonstrations before, but as a martial art is seems to be very much an "art" as a focus. That isn't a bad thing, and for someone who wants a top-notch cardio workout Capoeira is probably a stellar style to look into. The exercise and general fitness of martial arts training tends to be a central question I look at for offering my opinion on a style someone should look into. I tend to discourage "I want something that enables me to beat people up" mentality, because for the most part that's a poor reason to get into any martial art.

I've said as much before. Living as I do the odds of my ever needing martial arts skills to defend myself or the people I care about are close to zero, and if I was genuinely concerned about my safety I'd move house rather than train up.

However the fact is that for whatever screwed-up psychological reason, be it irrational fear or insecurity, a lot of people do want to train in something that will allow them to defend themselves effectively. While the reasons for that desire may be irrational, if you do happen to have that desire it's not irrational to look at the available evidence to see what kind of training actually works.

The other side of the coin, however, is that if all you want to do is get fit then a general gym workout is far more effective than MA training. Working on weights and exercise machines for an hour and a half beats the hell out of doing kata and crap for an hour and a half. Do aerobics if you want to be able to move. If you want to do MA, it's for a reason other than simple fitness. My guess is that more often than not it's because you want to be able to beat someone up.

[GreNME]

I've said as much before. Living as I do the odds of my ever needing martial arts skills to defend myself or the people I care about are close to zero, and if I was genuinely concerned about my safety I'd move house rather than train up.

I didn't state that to really contradict what anyone in the thread was saying. I was simply offering my constructive opinion on the merits of Capoeira.

However the fact is that for whatever screwed-up psychological reason, be it irrational fear or insecurity, a lot of people do want to train in something that will allow them to defend themselves effectively. While the reasons for that desire may be irrational, if you do happen to have that desire it's not irrational to look at the available evidence to see what kind of training actually works.

Meh. Most reasonably-experienced trainers are going to point out to prospective students that the class isn't a "learn to beat people up" class anyway, so there's a soft weeding process already in place. Anyone not willing to do actual research and learning on a prospective style is perfectly welcome to go to Wimp Lo's School of Beating People Up.

The other side of the coin, however, is that if all you want to do is get fit then a general gym workout is far more effective than MA training. Working on weights and exercise machines for an hour and a half beats the hell out of doing kata and crap for an hour and a half. Do aerobics if you want to be able to move. If you want to do MA, it's for a reason other than simple fitness. My guess is that more often than not it's because you want to be able to beat someone up.

Actually, I disagree with this premise. Tai Chi is very good for the middle-aged or people who have physical issues to get a more well-rounded workout for flexibility and ease of movement, where a lot of gym-centric workouts are going to focus on specific areas and be comprised of a lot of repetition (which can be hell on joints). In a few weeks I'm going to start learning some Wing Chun and some animal styles as a method of getting fit where doing my normal weight routine has mostly gotten me bored and disinterested. There are advantages to taking an MA class for fitness above a gym workout, but it's not going to be in isolating area X or toning muscle group Y, if that's a person's goal. The advantages mostly include an interesting environment, a variety that works on flexibility and poise (something far lacking in many routines I've tried in gyms), and the more social tone of a classroom environment versus a room full of individuals with different goals. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, and depending on one's goals and disposition I would say it depends on which would be more recommended, but I wouldn't consider a general gym workout to be more effective for everyone.

[Delvo]

The other side of the coin, however, is that if all you want to do is get fit then a general gym workout is far more effective than MA training.The most effective exercise is the one you enjoy enough (or dislike little enough) to keep doing. How theoretically effective it would be to spend a certain amount of time doing any exercise becomes irrelevant if you end up not actually spending that time on it.

[shuize]

Of the two that I've had any experience with, boxing and judo were both very good in terms of practical self-defense and all around health benefits.

[cornsail]

I've said as much before. Living as I do the odds of my ever needing martial arts skills to defend myself or the people I care about are close to zero, and if I was genuinely concerned about my safety I'd move house rather than train up.

If you're a girl, sexual assault is pretty prevalent and knowing BJJ would probably help in a lot of situations. If you're a boy, not so much need for it. Muggings and whatnot will rarely allow you the opportunity of a fair fight. Bar fights maybe, but that's not really "self defense".

Although, if you're going to train in martial arts for the fun and exercise, you might as well be learning skills that would be practical in a one on one fight.

[Leif Roar]

Although, if you're going to train in martial arts for the fun and exercise, you might as well be learning skills that would be practical in a one on one fight.

Track and field it is, then.

[thaiboxerken]

Although, if you're going to train in martial arts for the fun and exercise, you might as well be learning skills that would be practical in a one on one fight.

As opposed to?

[cornsail]

As opposed to skills that would not be practical in that situation?

[cornsail]

Track and field it is, then.

Track and field is a martial art?

[thaiboxerken]

As opposed to skills that would not be practical in that situation?

Sorry, I meant as opposed to what other situations? You seem to imply that there are martial arts more suited to taking on multiple opponents.

[Leif Roar]

Track and field is a martial art?

Oh yes. Ancient Greek fighting techniques. But make sure you find a dojo (called "sports club" in the art's lingo) who lets you practice realistically against resisting opponents and doesn't buy into all the woo concepts such as 'fair play' and 'sportsmanship.'

[cornsail]

Sorry, I meant as opposed to what other situations? You seem to imply that there are martial arts more suited to taking on multiple opponents.

No I meant to imply that martial arts are only suited to one on one fighting (I could be wrong, that's just AFAIK), but I'd rather learn something that is actually practical in that situation along with all the other benefits, even if it's not a situation that's likely to occur.

[cornsail]

Oh yes. Ancient Greek fighting techniques. But make sure you find a dojo (called "sports club" in the art's lingo) who lets you practice realistically against resisting opponents and doesn't buy into all the woo concepts such as 'fair play' and 'sportsmanship.'

Your joke is lost on me. Oh well.

[thaiboxerken]

No I meant to imply that martial arts are only suited to one on one fighting ...

Really?! Do you honestly believe this?

[GreNME]

Don't let it get to you, TBK. It'll just turn the thread into a peeing contest, or some shmoe is going to come in here waving his wee-wee about how the stuff he learned is superior because he was taught how to engage eight guys at once, even if they were armed with machetes in one hand and a Bowie knife in the other. Blindfolded.

It's really not worth it.

[TX50]

I recommend Llap-Goch. "The Secret Welsh ART of SELF DEFENCE that requires NO INTELLIGENCE, STRENGTH or PHYSICAL courage":

http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/

[cornsail]

Really?! Do you honestly believe this?

If you'd cut off my quote a little later you would see:

(I could be wrong, that's just AFAIK)

Why, what martial arts do you know of that are effective vs multiple opponents?

[cornsail]

So confused... all I was trying to say is that was that if you're going to learn martial arts techniques they might as well be ones that are actually practical in a fight.

If you know techniques that are effective vs five guys, fine more power to you. I just wouldn't have thought that knowing a martial art would make any difference in that situation.

[Bikewer]

It might. There are so many variables.... Fights do not take place as they do in martial-arts movies, of course, with the bad guys obligingly taking on the hero one at a time, all to be serially defeated with quick techniques...
More likely is something along the lines of getting caught up in a bar fight, civil disturbance, or "wilding" situation where a number of comparatively untrained individuals are being vicious but not particularly skillful.
The key would be to maximize survival. Using quick, very damaging techniques that would make it costly for the group to continue the attack. A weapon would be best, of course, improvised or not.
Otherwise, knee kicks, throat/eye jabs, powerful infighting techniques like elbow and knee blows...
With a bit of luck augmented by skill, a group may decide that an easier victim would be preferrable....

This is one of the problems with boxing, of course; what do you do at "inside" range?What do you do if you are grappling or taken down? Many boxers in exhibition matches have been embarrassed by wrestlers....
Points not made in all the above include:

1. Any actual study of any martial art for the purposes of self-defense should include instruction in the legal aspects. Self-defense law is complex and not uniform across the country or even across local areas. It behooves the student to become fully aware of law in their area, and not only the "letter" of the law but how cases are actually adjudicated.
2. Any self-defense instruction that does not include weapons is not being realistic.
I'm not referring to "classic" martial-arts weapons sets as you see in competition. Most of these are for show only. One should train to respond to the use of weapons by one's opponent, to using improvised weapons that might become available, and to any weapons one might decide to carry for the purpose of self-defense.
The comments under #1 above apply in spades to the use of weapons, which greatly up the ante as to possible criminal proceedings.

[lomiller]

More likely is something along the lines of getting caught up in a bar fight, civil disturbance, or "wilding" situation where a number of comparatively untrained individuals are being vicious but not particularly skillful.
The key would be to maximize survival. Using quick, very damaging techniques that would make it costly for the group to continue the attack. A weapon would be best, of course, improvised or not.
Otherwise, knee kicks, throat/eye jabs, powerful infighting techniques like elbow and knee blows...
With a bit of luck augmented by skill, a group may decide that an easier victim would be preferrable....

This is one of the problems with boxing, of course; what do you do at "inside" range?What do you do if you are grappling or taken down? Many boxers in exhibition matches have been embarrassed by wrestlers....
Points not made in all the above include:


Grappling by it’s very nature takes away most striking techniques, plus grapplers have can typically train at full speed and power against a resisting opponent using all their available techniques with reasonably low risk of injury. This makes for a pretty big advantage in any type of staged competition. Grappling techniques are not the best choice for a real street fight because you can’t count on everyone simply standing back and letting you go one on one.

The catch-22 is that the techniques that are most applicable to a real street/bar fight are the least amenable to teach/train. Their intent is to cause serious injury quickly so if you do train at full speed/power someone will get injured and the training will be over. Conversely if you don’t train using these techniques at full speed you probably will not be able to execute them in a real fight.

Consequently the person who wins these real fights normally be the people who have been in a lot of real fights, or are simply strong/fast enough to charge one person at a time and overwhelm them quickly enough to avoid being jumped from behind.

[Wudang]

Why, what martial arts do you know of that are effective vs multiple opponents?

Ones that emphasise mobility (like boxing) to try to avoid getting cornered, that teach fast recoverable attacks (like boxing) and get you used to being hit (like boxing). Boxing would be a good example.
I'd say "improve your horribly long odds" rather than "effective" tbh.
It's an entertaining area when you see some of the contrived situations some styles show to demonstrate their worth.

[Segnosaur]

That said, I believe they also place a great deal of faith in low-percentage moves like eye and groin attacks, which are great if they work but which require the kind of precise muscle control that is the first thing to go out the window when adrenaline hits.
First of all... what makes you think that any martial artist (one that's just taken courses, and has never been confronted by an attacker "in the street") will be able to perform when their life is really in danger? I rather suspect people will react different when in a boxing ring/on a judo mat compared to when they are attacked by some drunk in the local pub. If you are going to criticize martial arts like Ju Jitsu because people perform differently under pressure, you should also be willing to criticize Judo/Boxing for the same reasons.

Secondly, keep in mind that, at least in Ju Jitsu, eye and groin attacks do not have to be very accurate. Basically, you use whatever 'targets' are available. You don't go out of your way to do an eye strike/groin strike. For example, if I'm grabbed in a bear hug, I can knee the guy. My leg is pretty much in the perfect place. Or if that doesn't work, I can head-butt them. Again, assuming I could remember the move, there is very little that I can do to miss.

Even in situations where I could conceivably miss, in many cases it doesn't matter.... If I try a kick-to-the-groin and I miss, I still probably hit the person's knees, or something that's going to at least hurt them.

A popular conceit amongst woos is that what a martial art is "designed for" matters. It doesn't.

The fact that some "woos" believe something doesn't automatically make things untrue. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

Judo was designed to be a safe sport, and I'd back a judoka over someone who wasted their time on krav maga.
You seem to be quite down on Krav Maga. However, it is taught in the Israeli army, and versions are taught to police and military forces around the world. Do you think all those people are deluding themselves as to their effectiveness? Or do you think that the people who are actually risking their lives and who may actually have combat experience might have taken the effort to ensure their tactics are effective.

That's exactly right. Judo is jujitsu with the dangerous elements removed or defanged, but because it's been defanged you can train it with full speed and power against a resisting opponent.
...
Oh absolutely. There are tonnes of techniques which are far more immediately effective than judo throws. The problem is that until we create robot training partners we can't train those techniques properly, so the guy who spends all day practising a jujitsu technique which would break someone's arm is going to get reamed by the guy who spends all day practising a judo technique that just slams him into the mat.
You know, I wonder, if that Judo guy ever gets into a real street fight, does he tell his opponents "Ok, we can fight... just don't kick and punch me because I haven't learned how to defend against that". Or do you think the boxer who gets into a bar brawl tells people "punching only... don't kick, and if I fall you have to let me back up"?

This has been mentioned to you before, but you've never addressed the point...Real fights have no rules. Judo/Boxing/etc. do have rules. The more rules you put in to prevent injury the less it resembles what could happen in a 'real fight'. And while the person may have experience fighting someone under 'controlled' conditions safely, the less experience they'll have dealing with real-world situations.

By the way, it should be noted that during one of my courses, they actually brought in an instructor who teaches various police forces in the region. You'd figure the cops, with their lives on the line, would pick something that 'works'.

However the fact is that for whatever screwed-up psychological reason, be it irrational fear or insecurity, a lot of people do want to train in something that will allow them to defend themselves effectively.
I recognize that I live in a safe neighborhood in a safe city and that is very little chance that I will encounter any real 'danger'. But the chance is still not non-zero. I also recognize that if I ever got into a real fight, even with my training, I may panic and not use my skills properly (although the same goes with every martial art).

However, all things considered, I'd rather improve my chances of survival (even if it only has 0.0001% of making a difference) than not.

The other side of the coin, however, is that if all you want to do is get fit then a general gym workout is far more effective than MA training.
Yes, if all I wanted to do was get fit then a gym would be better. Problem is, many people find working out to be 'boring'. MA training has the benefits of both social interaction, plus scheduled classes (so you don't fall into the whole "don't feel like it today, I'll go tomorrow" trap.) in addition to the admittedly tiny chance that it might be useful for protection

[Kevin_Lowe]

First of all... what makes you think that any martial artist (one that's just taken courses, and has never been confronted by an attacker "in the street") will be able to perform when their life is really in danger? I rather suspect people will react different when in a boxing ring/on a judo mat compared to when they are attacked by some drunk in the local pub. If you are going to criticize martial arts like Ju Jitsu because people perform differently under pressure, you should also be willing to criticize Judo/Boxing for the same reasons.

As I said earlier, the evidence is that people who train with full speed and power against resisting opponents have a significantly greater that zero chance of making their techniques work as advertised under fight conditions. The non-contact woos fail completely at worst, and improvise terrible kickboxing at best.


Secondly, keep in mind that, at least in Ju Jitsu, eye and groin attacks do not have to be very accurate. Basically, you use whatever 'targets' are available. You don't go out of your way to do an eye strike/groin strike. For example, if I'm grabbed in a bear hug, I can knee the guy. My leg is pretty much in the perfect place. Or if that doesn't work, I can head-butt them. Again, assuming I could remember the move, there is very little that I can do to miss.

I suspect your experience of bear hugs comes from compliant stooges grabbing you in really bad bear hugs. Attacking the eyes or groin from an inferior grappling position is not a reliable escape method, take it from a guy who did grappling.


Even in situations where I could conceivably miss, in many cases it doesn't matter.... If I try a kick-to-the-groin and I miss, I still probably hit the person's knees, or something that's going to at least hurt them.


Rather than go into detailed what-if scenarios I'll just say that you've gotten some ideas about combat that seem very strange to me.


You seem to be quite down on Krav Maga. However, it is taught in the Israeli army, and versions are taught to police and military forces around the world. Do you think all those people are deluding themselves as to their effectiveness? Or do you think that the people who are actually risking their lives and who may actually have combat experience might have taken the effort to ensure their tactics are effective.

They used to teach SCARS to Navy Seals and it's unmitigated garbage. Fact is, most modern militaries do not engage in unarmed combat very often and for this reason they very sensibly do not spend much training time on unarmed combat skills.

If there is anyone in the Israeli army who has survived multiple life-or-death struggles unarmed I'd be very surprised, and I think their superior officers should have a word with them about making sure they bring a knife or better yet a gun with them next time they go into combat.

The "learn the deadly secret techniques of the Elite Special Forces!" is a woo-MA pitch line with the same value as "learn the deadly secret techniques of ninjas/shaolin/pirates/whatever".

I think most militaries teach MMA these days anyway.


You know, I wonder, if that Judo guy ever gets into a real street fight, does he tell his opponents "Ok, we can fight... just don't kick and punch me because I haven't learned how to defend against that". Or do you think the boxer who gets into a bar brawl tells people "punching only... don't kick, and if I fall you have to let me back up"?

This has been mentioned to you before, but you've never addressed the point...Real fights have no rules. Judo/Boxing/etc. do have rules. The more rules you put in to prevent injury the less it resembles what could happen in a 'real fight'. And while the person may have experience fighting someone under 'controlled' conditions safely, the less experience they'll have dealing with real-world situations.

While this is true, training with full speed and power against resisting opponents in an "unrealistic" setting has proven to be infinitely more effective than playing let's pretend about "realistic" situations. You can't learn to fight without fighting, and unrealistic fighting is still close enough to fighting to prepare you for the real thing. Whereas "realistic" play-acting prepares you for nothing except more play-acting.


By the way, it should be noted that during one of my courses, they actually brought in an instructor who teaches various police forces in the region. You'd figure the cops, with their lives on the line, would pick something that 'works'.

If that was how it worked, beat cops would have invented MMA decades before the UFC came along. (Same goes for the "military is teh deadly" fanboys - if the military was the crucible of realistic technique some people imagine it to be then they would have invented MMA long ago).

The problem, I think, is that before the UFC there was simply nothing resembling controlled and recorded testing. It took a lot of testing in realistic, recorded conditions before people could look at the assembled data and figure out what was working and what wasn't. Previous generations never had the opportunity we have had, to see the best in the world fight with cameras rolling. We're very lucky to be living in the era of evidence-based martial arts.

[luchog]

The only martial art one will ever need:

[Eddie Dane]

For the record. I don't want to be the next Bas Rutten (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQVaTEPOsTA&feature=related).

But my philosophy is that as I'm training a martial art, I shouldn't waste my time and effort learning reflexes that I'm sure won't work in real world.

I don't go to bars very often and I haven't been to a big house party in over ten years.

So effectiveness is an extra. Like buying a big flash-light and knowing that in emergency, you could knock someone over the head with it.

[mikeyx]

Track and field is a martial art?

if you consider running away, maybe...

[mikeyx]

No I meant to imply that martial arts are only suited to one on one fighting (I could be wrong, that's just AFAIK), but I'd rather learn something that is actually practical in that situation along with all the other benefits, even if it's not a situation that's likely to occur.

Some play on multiple against one, ninpo and silat come to mind in various forms.

[Magyar]

One more thing: one should not confuse "martial art" with "self defense". The two are often conflated when they shouldn't be.

QFT - as many have said, fist and foremost you need to look around and find what is conveniently near you. Then look at those teachers and see who makes sense.

I don't want to start yet another MMA vs CMA thread, but I think that MMA stuff ( i include Brazilian and JJ in this) is much more for actual fighters, which you've said you are not. For these styles you HAVE to be quick, strong and aggressive BEFORE you start otherwise you will become at best mediocre.

IF you have a competent teacher, and one easy way to determine this is with a simple question - What is the real life application of this move? then really the only thing that matters is how comfortable you are in the environment.

I have a black belt in 2 different systems and have did style of CMA for about 10 year and
started a Mantis style about 3 years ago. Though these I have met many people practicing probably 60-70 different styles.

Every one of these styles have had a basic defend/attack/lock/break that was essentially identical. This should be no surprise as if you think about it, there are only so many ways a guy is going to punch or kick you and the human bodies mechanics only lend themselves to so many twists, counters etc to these.


Now even with in these there are ones that require you to think about what you are doing.
so you would need to do A against a right hook if your right foot is forward and B if your left is. But there are techniques where you do EXACTLY the same thing whether it's right hook or a left hook, whether your right or left foot is forward. THESE are self defense things MM is talking about and I still practice them pretty much every day. I know about 8 of these and have use 3 in real life one of which actually saved my life.

The rest of it, is physical fitness, and having something to do. I mean I know several real cool forms with a Kwan Dao and I can do then at pretty much live fighting speed. But REALY how likely is it that I am going to need a pole weapon designed for fighting armored cavalry anytime soon?

It does give me a great workout though swinging a 6' tall blade that weights nearly 15# around for 5 minutes at a time. It also teaches body awareness and balance, maintains flexibility etc all of which can be easily applied to real life every day events.

Ever miss a step when you're in a hurry or slip on ice? The flexibility or the instinct to roll or fall properly lets me walk away from stuff like that where others may break a bone or tear a ligament.

[Magyar]

Some play on multiple against one, ninpo and silat come to mind in various forms.

I think just about every good style with the exception of MMA stuff actually does this.
I know I've practiced it in all 4 styles I've studies. (this is one of my peeves against MMA - it's pretty damed hard to fight against more then one person when you're on the ground, unless getting your head pounded into the pavement is your idea of fighting back)

[thaiboxerken]

Why, what martial arts do you know of that are effective vs multiple opponents?

Before firearms, there were wars and almost all of these wars were fought using martial arts.

[Delvo]

Before firearms, there were wars and almost all of these wars were fought using martial arts.This highlights something that's bugged me a little bit for years about calling them "martial" arts. That word refers to war, but what's studied in these classes is not warfare. They don't carry high-capacity, high-power guns. They don't wear kevlar or ceramic plates. They don't have explosives on hand. They don't practice finding cover or using it correctly, nevermind progressing through a building or other complex environment section by section as a coordinated group. Radios, armored vehicles, smoke & lasers for signaling to aircraft, night goggles, and first aid kits are nowhere around. They don't mention sleep schedules or watch duty planning.

Even if you want to take it out of modern context and talk about them as traditions from before a lot of modern advances happened, it's still not warfare we're talking about. They don't line up in formation with shields and spears or swords or even bladeless mock-ups, and practice having everyone move in the same way at the same time at the same speed when given certain commands by voice, flag, drum, whistle, or bugle. They don't drill on how to fix the formation immediately if something happens to one man in it, or how to turn and reorganize it to fight in a new direction, or how to cycle men on and off of the front shield line. They don't even mention marching or how to pack up and carry their gear.

Even a melee, the least organized kind of battle, still isn't really like the kinds of fight that people are training for in today's "martial" arts schools; they train for fights in which both opponents are facing each other, but in a chaotic mess of allies and enemies on the battlefield, you'd strike at enemies who had their backs turned to you while trying to watch your back and/or keep moving so they don't do that to you.

There just isn't anything truly martial about any modern martial art in anyway. This isn't even a matter of effectiveness; even an effective one is simply effective at some other goal, not war.

[roger]

I recommend 10mm or .40 S&W.

[rhtufts]

If your looking for a MA to be fun and get you in shape then choose Judo. I can not recommend Judo enough, it is awesome. Its also the hardest workout I've ever had in my life.

These threads always devolve into the guys who sweat in training arguing with the guys that pretend to poke eyes in training arguing for pages and pages. Ignore them and go try BJJ or Judo.

.02
Russell

[qayak]

Grappling by it’s very nature takes away most striking techniques, plus grapplers have can typically train at full speed and power against a resisting opponent using all their available techniques with reasonably low risk of injury.

Grapplers tend to get their asses kicked in anything outside the ring.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Grapplers tend to get their asses kicked in anything outside the ring.

Evidences?

[Cobalt]

Jiu Jitsu. The only real "philosophy" to any of my classes have been "here's how you kick someone's ass using this badass hold."

I would personally suggest basic boxing classes just as a matter of learning to keep your hands up and such.

BJJ is great but against multiple people you'd do well to know at least how to block and counter punch.

[thaiboxerken]

Even if you want to take it out of modern ..yadda yadda yadda...
Even a melee, the least organized kind of battle,....yadda yaddda

There just isn't anything truly martial about any modern martial art in anyway. This isn't even a matter of effectiveness; even an effective one is simply effective at some other goal, not war.

What was done then was martial arts, and much of what people train today is martial art. Martial arts are simply a systematic way of learning how to fight. You do realize that soldiers and marines today are still trained in hand-hand martial arts combat, don't you?

As far as old melee war simulations, there are groups out there that do that kind of stuff as well.

[Leif Roar]

You do realize that soldiers and marines today are still trained in hand-hand martial arts combat, don't you?

Soldiers are still trained in military drill too -- which is actually closer to skills they'd use on a pre-rifle battlefield than the modern melee systems are. Nobody calls military drill a "martial art", though.

[thaiboxerken]

Nobody calls military drill a "martial art", though.

I do, because it fits the definition of being a systematic way of learning how to fight.

[qayak]

Jiu Jitsu. The only real "philosophy" to any of my classes have been "here's how you kick someone's ass using this badass hold."

I would personally suggest basic boxing classes just as a matter of learning to keep your hands up and such.

BJJ is great but against multiple people you'd do well to know at least how to block and counter punch.

Have you ever been in or, witnessed, a bar fight? Anybody who goes to the ground is in serious threat of getting their head kicked in by anyone with enough alcohol in them to think they are a baddass.

[GreNME]

Nobody calls military drill a "martial art", though.

False (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program). Other branches may refer to it as CQ or H2H training, but there are classes for it and I'm fairly certain that the US military has at least three or four inter-related martial arts training types it teaches.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Have you ever been in or, witnessed, a bar fight? Anybody who goes to the ground is in serious threat of getting their head kicked in by anyone with enough alcohol in them to think they are a baddass.

So no evidence at all?

[thaiboxerken]

Have you ever been in or, witnessed, a bar fight? Anybody who goes to the ground is in serious threat of getting their head kicked in by anyone with enough alcohol in them to think they are a baddass.

Yea, and anyone standing up is in serious threat of getting sucker punched as well. Did you do your research by watching Roadhouse?

[qayak]

Yea, and anyone standing up is in serious threat of getting sucker punched as well.

Yes but not nearly as big a threat as the guy on the floor.

Did you do your research by watching Roadhouse?

You have been waiting all thread to bring up your favourite movie and hero, haven't you? I suppose you are sitting in front of your computer fondling yourself at the mere thought of Patrick Swayze. You are a sick, sick, Thaiboxer! :D

[GreNME]

Let the phallus-waving begin!

[JoeyDonuts]

Grapplers tend to get their asses kicked in anything outside the ring.

What Phil Elmore really wants to say here is "anyone with a length of aircraft cable in their pocket."

[thaiboxerken]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbaGubfzSIc

[Cobalt]

Have you ever been in or, witnessed, a bar fight? Anybody who goes to the ground is in serious threat of getting their head kicked in by anyone with enough alcohol in them to think they are a baddass.

Yeah, you're right. There's absolutely NO BJJ technique that can be used standing.

Wait... (http://www.martialartsinc.com/images/jpg/mma33.JPG) maybe.... (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U9_d2lM-VLU/SnpCO_Rr5rI/AAAAAAAAAh0/TqQzxZMc9gQ/s320/kimura-standing-ude.jpg) nah, none. (http://nbcsportsmedia3.msnbc.com/i/NBCSports/Sections/UFC/PhotoArchive/UFC/Events/UFNDiazVsNeer/ufn15_01_miller_vs_kimmons_004.jpg) My bad.

Nevermind that I suggested a basic boxing course as well, but, whatever.

Hell did you not read the last line of my post?

[lomiller]

Grapplers tend to get their asses kicked in anything outside the ring.

The full paragraph you lifted that quote from is:

Grappling by it’s very nature takes away most striking techniques, plus grapplers have can typically train at full speed and power against a resisting opponent using all their available techniques with reasonably low risk of injury. This makes for a pretty big advantage in any type of staged competition. Grappling techniques are not the best choice for a real street fight because you can’t count on everyone simply standing back and letting you go one on one.

[Leif Roar]

False (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program). Other branches may refer to it as CQ or H2H training, but there are classes for it and I'm fairly certain that the US military has at least three or four inter-related martial arts training types it teaches.

Uh? What does that have to do with military drill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riBupC4V59M)?

[cornsail]

Before firearms, there were wars and almost all of these wars were fought using martial arts.

So "martial arts" includes all weapons except firearms by your definition?

I've been using a colloquial meaning of the phrase (referring to unarmed fighting).

[cornsail]

Not sure why you wouldn't count guns btw.

[Bikewer]

There are those (myself included) that think a practical martial art that does not include weapons training is lacking. Historically, practitioners of various sorts of weapons training thought of themselves as practicing "martial arts".
Also, what we think of today as (mostly Asian) MA usually includes some form of weapons training, if only at the upper levels of instruction. Even judo included instruction with various sticks including the "hanbo".
As I said earlier, a contemporary, practical course of study would include not only weaponry but training in the legal aspects of self-defense.

[qayak]

Yeah, you're right. There's absolutely NO BJJ technique that can be used standing.

I like how you need to change the definition of BJJ in order for it to be an effective self defence art. That alone makes it less than optimal.

As to all your other whining, I wasn't arguing with your points, I was simply stating a fact.

[qayak]

The full paragraph you lifted that quote from is:

The quote came from my experiences not from someone else.

[qayak]

There are those (myself included) that think a practical martial art that does not include weapons training is lacking. Historically, practitioners of various sorts of weapons training thought of themselves as practicing "martial arts".
Also, what we think of today as (mostly Asian) MA usually includes some form of weapons training, if only at the upper levels of instruction. Even judo included instruction with various sticks including the "hanbo".
As I said earlier, a contemporary, practical course of study would include not only weaponry but training in the legal aspects of self-defense.

I train in kobudo and I don't think there is much from them that can be used to defend oneself. How often will you find a sai, bo, tuifa, eku, etc., lying around.

Remember too, most of these weapons were not weapons, they were tools adapted to be weapons and it wasn't done by the military, it was done by civilians. Eku (oar), tuifa/tonfa (grindstone handle), etc.

Perhaps tetsu has some value but not too often you can be wandering around with a pair of tekko in your pocket.

Escrima on the other hand, effective and with a realistic chance of being applicable in real self defence.

[cornsail]

There are those (myself included) that think a practical martial art that does not include weapons training is lacking. Historically, practitioners of various sorts of weapons training thought of themselves as practicing "martial arts".
Also, what we think of today as (mostly Asian) MA usually includes some form of weapons training, if only at the upper levels of instruction. Even judo included instruction with various sticks including the "hanbo".
As I said earlier, a contemporary, practical course of study would include not only weaponry but training in the legal aspects of self-defense.

Sure. There is no clear place where the line is drawn between what can and cannot be called "martial arts" though. E.g. Is bomb making a martial art? Is Tai Chi a martial art? I'm just using it in a general colloquial sense. I don't think training for warfare comes into most people's minds when they hear "martial arts".

[Kevin_Lowe]

I like how you need to change the definition of BJJ in order for it to be an effective self defence art. That alone makes it less than optimal.

Say what? BJJ's always had standing grappling in it. BJJ tournaments start with both competitors standing. If you don't even know that much about the style I don't think you should be making pronouncements about what the definition of BJJ is.

[qayak]

Say what? BJJ's always had standing grappling in it.

Yeah and that's what BJJ is all about, stand up grappling. :rolleyes:

BJJ tournaments start with both competitors standing.

Now, connect this to a point you are trying to make and maybe it will be important because, as it stands, it is completely irrelevent. One small aspect of a style does not define the style.

If you don't even know that much about the style I don't think you should be making pronouncements about what the definition of BJJ is.

I know a fair amount about the style but I am using the definition that BJJ practitioners use when describing their style and it is diametrically opposed to what you seem to believe. So I have to decide, do they know what they are talking about or do you. Based on the evidence, I have to go with them.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Yeah and that's what BJJ is all about, stand up grappling. :rolleyes:

The focus is on ground grappling more so than standing grappling, particularly at the white belt level, certainly. However claiming that BJJ doesn't develop standing grappling skills is approximately as daft as claiming that judo doesn't develop ground grappling skills.

[qayak]

The focus is on ground grappling more so than standing grappling, particularly at the white belt level, certainly. However claiming that BJJ doesn't develop standing grappling skills is approximately as daft as claiming that judo doesn't develop ground grappling skills.

But several grades of daft below claiming that BJJ is a stand up art which is what I responded to. That claim is as ridiculous as claiming karate is really a ground grappling art.

And the claim I responded to was put forth in order to support the argument that BJJ is a realistic self defence art that can be effectively applied standing up. In general, BJJ uses stand up grappling as a means to get someone to the ground where they are much more effective. The trouble with going to the ground in a self defence situation is that it leaves you very vulnerable.

[GreNME]

My finger points!

mOGeS_OoFDw

[Kevin_Lowe]

But several grades of daft below claiming that BJJ is a stand up art which is what I responded to. That claim is as ridiculous as claiming karate is really a ground grappling art.

And the claim I responded to was put forth in order to support the argument that BJJ is a realistic self defence art that can be effectively applied standing up. In general, BJJ uses stand up grappling as a means to get someone to the ground where they are much more effective. The trouble with going to the ground in a self defence situation is that it leaves you very vulnerable.

Once again, I ask you where your evidence is.

A popular woo-MA argument is "BJJ sucks because my woo-MA is better able to handle multiple attackers". However evidence that this is the case is thin on the ground. It seems to me this is a combination of armchair generalship and outright wishful thinking.

[GreNME]

Kevin, you know how this goes. Why are you prodding it along?

[qayak]

A popular woo-MA argument is "BJJ sucks because my woo-MA is better able to handle multiple attackers".

This is a strawman of your own making. That you can read that much into my words is more an indication of your own woo-MA claims than it is of mine. Every martial has its strengths and limitations. I have trained BJJ and simply pointed out one drawback to using it as one's main method of self defense.

So, unless you are making the claim that BJJ is the be all and end all of MA, I don't see where our differences lie.

[GreNME]

So, unless you are making the claim that BJJ is the be all and end all of MA, I don't see where our differences lie.

Oh jebus freaking jumping-jack christmas, no one has claimed BJJ is "the be all and end all of MA" in this thread. The irony of you making this statement right after accusing Kevin of a strawman makes your post even more ridiculous.

[qayak]

Oh jebus freaking jumping-jack christmas, no one has claimed BJJ is "the be all and end all of MA" in this thread. The irony of you making this statement right after accusing Kevin of a strawman makes your post even more ridiculous.

A reading comprehension course really should be high up on your "To Do" list. I never claimed anyone said any such thing. I simply stated that unless Kevin Lowe was making such a claim, we had nothing to argue about.

On the other hand, you failed to address the strawman of me being accused of saying that any other MA was better than BJJ. Please cite where I said that or ask the person who made the claim to point you to where I said that.

Dishonesty or lack of comprehension on your part? That is the question I wrestle with here. At this point, I think it is the latter but only time will tell.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Kevin, you know how this goes. Why are you prodding it along?

Fair question. I'm able to admit when I've been trolled.

[GreNME]

More irony in that you're demanding I address what you accuse Kevin of after you make a similar divergent statement.

You two are talking right past each other, and the only predictable outcome is a typical weiner-swinging match about who's kung-fu is stronger. No thanks, not interested in a pissing match.

[JoeyDonuts]

I have trained BJJ and simply pointed out one drawback to using it as one's main method of self defense.

Under whom?

[qayak]

More irony in that you're demanding I address what you accuse Kevin of after you make a similar divergent statement.

You two are talking right past each other, and the only predictable outcome is a typical weiner-swinging match about who's kung-fu is stronger. No thanks, not interested in a pissing match.

And yet you jumped in with your weiner swinging. Me thinks you protest too much. Perhaps it isnt' that you don't like a weiner swinging contest, perhaps it is that you lack in weiner to swing. :rolleyes:

[cornsail]

How could he both "jump in with his weiner swinging" and "lack a weiner to swing"?

(Logic Kwan Do)

[GreNME]

I'm going to re-watch Kung Pow: Enter The Fist in honor of this thread.

[qayak]

How could he both "jump in with his weiner swinging" and "lack a weiner to swing"?

(Logic Kwan Do)

Perhaps you should try that Logic Kwan Do art before you open your mouth and make a complete fool of yourself. I didn't say "lack a weiner to swing," I said "lack in weiner to swing."

'Tis true.

Check it out.

Be amazed.

You, GreNME and Kevin Lowe are experts at Strawman Fu. I hope any actual MA training you have is more realistic based . . . but I doubt it.

[thaiboxerken]

So "martial arts" includes all weapons except firearms by your definition?

I've been using a colloquial meaning of the phrase (referring to unarmed fighting).

Yes. Do you not think the use of melee and missle weapons part of fighting? Even firearms could be considered part of martial arts, in some contexts.

[Delvo]

Perhaps you should try that Logic Kwan Do art before you open your mouth and make a complete fool of yourself.I thought it was just a demonstration of sen-so hyu ma.

[GreNME]

You, GreNME and Kevin Lowe are experts at Strawman Fu. I hope any actual MA training you have is more realistic based . . . but I doubt it.

http://image.grenme.com/thread/lold.jpg

I thought it was just a demonstration of sen-so hyu ma.

I see you are familiar with the ancient form. I also sensed the form of Iro-Nee at play as well.

[Wudang]

http://www.senshido.com/swwd2.html

The Shredder owns everything on the street. Its pathetic even trying to fight it. Its just that damn good.

[yairhol]

I have no training in MA but my best friend has a black belt in Hisardut (Also Israeli).
Hisardut: (http://www.hisardut.com/definition.htm)


The Hisardut® system is not a random collection of techniques but a comprehensive system that was designed from inception as a modern "all-dimensional" (all ranges of fighting) method of engagement and all-around survival system. The Hisardut® curriculum was developed from a systematic study of preferred elements from various martial arts, military close combat methods, police use of force tactics, and actual incidents involving confrontations between police/military/security/civilians and terrorists/criminals. Only the most practical and realistic techniques and tactics were adopted, improved upon and are now taught as one system.

The Hisardut® down-to-earth training curriculum is stripped away of non-essentials. It is based on science and experience, not theory. Our training method teach universal survival principles that works regardless of the threat and techniques that are simple to learn and easy to remember. We use realistic training scenarios that are based on actual events to teach practical skills that work in the real world. All the techniques taught are designed to enhance instinctive responses using natural body mechanics while eliminating peripheral moves. The Hisardut® curriculum is constantly tested and updated with answers to the latest emerging terrorist trends and threats.


You don't want to meet this guy and his Hisardut buddies in a dark alley.

[cornsail]

Perhaps you should try that Logic Kwan Do art before you open your mouth and make a complete fool of yourself. I didn't say "lack a weiner to swing," I said "lack in weiner to swing."

I've never heard the phrase "you lack in weiner", so I assumed a typo. It sort of makes sense now that I think about it.

You, GreNME and Kevin Lowe are experts at Strawman Fu. I hope any actual MA training you have is more realistic based . . . but I doubt it.

Yeah, not only is my MA training not realistic based, but I lack in weiner...

[Cobalt]

I like how you need to change the definition of BJJ in order for it to be an effective self defence art. That alone makes it less than optimal. Clearly, you have no clue what you're talking about.
The art was derived from the Japanese martial art of Kodokan Judo in the early 20th century...


As to all your other whining, I wasn't arguing with your points, I was simply stating a fact.

Cause you had no arguments for my points.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I have no training in MA but my best friend has a black belt in Hisardut (Also Israeli).
Hisardut: (http://www.hisardut.com/definition.htm)



You don't want to meet this guy and his Hisardut buddies in a dark alley.[/LEFT]

Looks like the usual woo-MA to me, trying to cash in on the popularity of Krav Maga.

Check out their learn-to-be-an-instructor hotline (http://www.hisardut.com/instruct.htm). It's on the page labelled "Instructors/Qualifications" which, if you were naive, you might think would have the backgrounds and qualifications of the people teaching this Hisardut stuff.

Their videos, those that work at all, don't look to be much chop either.

They even have the obligatory waffle about how sport training doesn't work On Teh Streetz, along with the obligatory total lack of objective evidence that their system works On Teh Streetz or anywhere else.

[thaiboxerken]

You don't want to meet this guy and his Hisardut buddies in a dark alley.[/left]

Why not? The SCARS guys had even bolder claims and proved to be a bunch of morons.

[Redtail]

why not? The scars guys had even bolder claims and proved to be a bunch of morons.

lol! Scars...

[Thunder]

I suggest the martial art that has the most "heeeeeee yaaaa!!!!!!!"s in it...is the right one for you.

[cornsail]

Why not? The SCARS guys had even bolder claims and proved to be a bunch of morons.

It's not a particularly bold claim. I wouldn't want to run into any group of guys who had hostile intentions in a dark alley. Maybe they teach mugging strategies. :)

[yairhol]

Looks like the usual woo-MA to me, trying to cash in on the popularity of Krav Maga.

Check out their learn-to-be-an-instructor hotline (http://www.hisardut.com/instruct.htm). It's on the page labelled "Instructors/Qualifications" which, if you were naive, you might think would have the backgrounds and qualifications of the people teaching this Hisardut stuff.

Their videos, those that work at all, don't look to be much chop either.

They even have the obligatory waffle about how sport training doesn't work On Teh Streetz, along with the obligatory total lack of objective evidence that their system works On Teh Streetz or anywhere else.

Sorry Kevin, but I don't think you have any idea about what Hisardut is. I haven't read all the links on the Hisardut website but I can tell you that it's exactly as the quote I gave before.
It has become part of the education system in Israel for about 20+ years now. When I was in 8th grade (many years a go), my class went to Hisardut lessons. You learn some patriotism (which I think is good), you learn to respect your parents and teachers (which I also think is good) and you learn to defend yourself against attackers choking you from behind, coming at you with a knife, etc. It's not always the most beautiful art but it's effective. I learned under Dr. Dennis Hanover himself (the creator of the system) and my black belt friend has been taught under his supervision also. I remember that Dr. Hanover once volunteered me to show a move he wanted to teach against an attacker coming to slap me. He was the attacker and even before he taught what to do he said "think fast, what would you do now" and he gave me a nice big slap on the head. It shook me as I stood there like a tree. He asked again, "what would you do now" and slapped again. Only on the third time did I raise my hand in defense which he congratulated me and said that that is exactly the instinct that we have and the most effective thing to do followed by other moves that he then taught in order to not only defend yourself but also neutralize your opponent.
I asked my friend what were the Hisardut classes like. He said they train using body weight as resistance and work on stamina. They have constant full contact fights where they practice the system.
It is exactly as I wrote before: No-nonsense efficient self-defense system. It is taught in the military and to the police force in Israel.

[yairhol]

Looks like the usual woo-MA to me, trying to cash in on the popularity of Krav Maga.

Check out their learn-to-be-an-instructor hotline (http://www.hisardut.com/instruct.htm). It's on the page labelled "Instructors/Qualifications" which, if you were naive, you might think would have the backgrounds and qualifications of the people teaching this Hisardut stuff.

Their videos, those that work at all, don't look to be much chop either.

They even have the obligatory waffle about how sport training doesn't work On Teh Streetz, along with the obligatory total lack of objective evidence that their system works On Teh Streetz or anywhere else.

Kevin, on the page you linked to there is the biography of the instructor in the USA headquarters:
http://www.directmeasures.com/management-alon.htm

I think it speaks for itself.

[yairhol]

Their videos, those that work at all, don't look to be much chop either.

All the videos worked for me.
I don't know what you wanted to see exactly. High flying kicks and a lot of drama? No, that's not what Hisardut is all about.
Hisardut is more about like the video of the girl taking a way the gun from the attacker in 2-3 moves in less than a second.

[JoeyDonuts]

Application of techniques in a non-compliant environment on fully resisting opponents would be nice.

The reason we keep calling for this, is that it truly is the only way to learn how to fight.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Kevin, on the page you linked to there is the biography of the instructor in the USA headquarters:
http://www.directmeasures.com/management-alon.htm

I think it speaks for itself.

Help me out here, what's it mean when it says this guy, Alon Stivi, was "World Full Contact Survival Fighting" champion in 1994?

I've sure never heard of a a World Full Contact Survival Fighting Championship, and a googling (http://www.google.com.au/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22World+Full+Contact+Survival+Fighting%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=7FuPS-qnIJWXkQXu-dTvDA) shows that the only place this term seems to turn up anywhere on the internet is in this one guy's biography.

Searching without the quotation marks gets lots of irrelevant hits and that guy's biography again.

Was he the only guy competing in the World Full Contact Survival Fighting Championship or what?

Apart from that interesting claim to full-contact fame, nothing in his biography hints at any full-contact martial arts experience. He's ex-army, sure, but there are lots of ex-army people in the world and they aren't exactly cleaning up in MMA with their elite ex-army martial arts skills.

As for slapping timid kids in the head, I can do that too if you like. It doesn't make me a tough guy.

Now it's possible that despite showing every sign of woo-MA that these guys really do have full-contact fights constantly, like you claim your friend said. If so they'd be pretty good. However when every other aspect of their web site indicates that they are a martial LARP outfit trying to cash in on the popularity of Krav Maga, and their videos look exactly like the usual woo-MA junk, I have to say I'm skeptical about the claim that they regularly train full-contact.

[yairhol]

You can find out about Alon Stivi:
http://www.planetsurvival.com/thehisthisardutdennissurvival/

http://www.hisardut.com/warn.htm

http://www.intelligencesummit.org/speakers/AlonStivi.php

About the name of the championship, it could have been under some previous name since the Hisardut system is ever evolving and I think its champioships are not that popular (as is the Hisardut system).

As for slapping timid kids in the head, I can do that too if you like. It doesn't make me a tough guy.

lol. Dennis Hanover doesn't need to prove he's a tough guy by beating kids.
http://dennis-hisardut.org.il/?CategoryID=185&ArticleID=106&sng=1

[Kevin_Lowe]

You can find out about Alon Stivi:
http://www.planetsurvival.com/thehisthisardutdennissurvival/

http://www.hisardut.com/warn.htm

http://www.intelligencesummit.org/speakers/AlonStivi.php


That's the same rubbish we've already seen.


About the name of the championship, it could have been under some previous name since the Hisardut system is ever evolving and I think its champioships are not that popular (as is the Hisardut system).

So at best he's "world champion" of an in-house tournament with a handful of participants. That's assuming that World Full Contact Survival Fighting Championships even exist, since you pulled that story out of your backside. Yet he passes himself off as World Full Contact Survival Fighting Champion.


lol. Dennis Hanover doesn't need to prove he's a tough guy by beating kids.
http://dennis-hisardut.org.il/?CategoryID=185&ArticleID=106&sng=1

That guy on the other hand at least got up and fought once in 1975, although the paranoia and jingoism on that page is pretty thick. I note that it doesn't say where he placed in his one full-contact karate tournament, just that he "won" one match but evil anti-Zionist forces made the judges call it a draw.

[Flo]

I have no training in MA but my best friend has a black belt in Hisardut (Also Israeli).

Sorry, but I add my voice to those who call "usual Woo-MA".

The Hisardut® down-to-earth training curriculum is stripped away of non-essentials. It is based on science and experience, not theory.

I'd be happy to see the scientific studies backing this.

Our training method teach universal survival principles that works regardless of the threat and techniques that are simple to learn and easy to remember.

"Universal survival principles" ? Really ? What kind of animal are those ?

Furthermore, as someone who has black belts in Judo, Aikido and Kendo (5th dan), having practiced for decades, I think I can safely say that no (fighting) technique is ever simple or easy to learn, or to remember and apply, even in a controlled situation like a full speed training combat situation or a competition, not to mention actual street fight.

We use realistic training scenarios that are based on actual events to teach practical skills that work in the real world.

Yeah, sure, and at full speed, in the dark, with complete novices who then become invincible fighting machines in no time at all ... heard that a lot of time, seen the results on several occasion (big mouthed guy enters dojo bragging ... :rolleyes:)

All the techniques taught are designed to enhance instinctive responses using natural body mechanics while eliminating peripheral moves.

Doesn't work. A lot of the basic training of most MA I've practiced or seen practiced consisted in getting rid of instinctive responses and reflexes that are counter productive (like closing one's eyes when being slapped). Takes a lot of time and repetitions, isn't simple nor easy.

The Hisardut® curriculum is constantly tested and updated with answers to the latest emerging terrorist trends and threats.

You mean it makes you immune to suicide-bombers ? :rolleyes:

[yairhol]

The pseudo skeptic in you and Kevin is strong.
You have not seen a single demonstration of Hisardut or maybe even not heard of it until my posts yet you seem to know that it doesn't work.
saying that enhancing instinctive responses doesn't work, like you said is so much BS. Raising one's arm up countering a punch or slap doesn't work? really? So what should one do instead? I'd love to hear that.
I don't think you were being serious when you said that instincts like closing ones eyes when being hit is enhanced in Hisardut. That's not what happens. Read my post #126.

[JoeyDonuts]

Count me amongst the doubters.

We're informing our opinion based on the evidence that has been shown to us.

You're not making a strong case for this stuff.

Check this out. (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47407)

Not the same guy, but this dude fought in the UFC at least. Has an MMA record of 1-6, and his fights weren't all that pretty. Still, gotta give him props for showing up.

Based on what I've gathered, I'm concluding that this Hisardut stuff is most definitely an Israeli-flavored "McDojo" and may or may not be 'woo-ish' in nature.

[yairhol]

Count me amongst the doubters.

We're informing our opinion based on the evidence that has been shown to us.

You're not making a strong case for this stuff.

Check this out. (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47407)

Not the same guy, but this dude fought in the UFC at least. Has an MMA record of 1-6, and his fights weren't all that pretty. Still, gotta give him props for showing up.

Based on what I've gathered, I'm concluding that this Hisardut stuff is most definitely an Israeli-flavored "McDojo" and may or may not be 'woo-ish' in nature.
Just a note regarding your link.
it says:
He teaches a style he developed himself called "Survival Hisardut".

That's obviously not true so I really don't know what this guy has to do with this thread. Anyone can claim anything they want. So what?
Also giving an example of some guy that lost several fights really doesn't account for anything. If a bad Judoka loses all his fights, does that mean that Judo is not effective?

[Kevin_Lowe]

The pseudo skeptic in you and Kevin is strong.
You have not seen a single demonstration of Hisardut or maybe even not heard of it until my posts yet you seem to know that it doesn't work.

We're just going on the overblown promises, stock woo-MA sales pitch and total lack of evidence that we've been shown. "Know" is too strong a word. I wouldn't say I "know" it's a McDojo, just that based on the available evidence I strongly suspect it.


saying that enhancing instinctive responses doesn't work, like you said is so much BS. Raising one's arm up countering a punch or slap doesn't work? really? So what should one do instead? I'd love to hear that.

Think about this to yourself for a while - do you ever see boxers raise their arm up to counter a punch or a slap? The answer is no or very rarely. The same goes for karateka in full contact competition, muay thai fighters and everyone else who actually fights full contact,

The reason is, to put it in your own oversimplified terms, that it doesn't work. Against a properly ranged punch coming in straight it's not a high percentage defence, and even if it works you've got one of your arms out there doing nothing but getting in the way.

The correct response is do move out of the way, or absorb the blow by taking it somewhere that doesn't hurt too badly, and punch the attacker back.

Sticking your arm out to block a punch or a slap is a woo-MA defence that works against woo-MA techniques like the big sloppy haymaker. Against proper hooks, jabs and crosses it's just going to get your face rocked, and even against sloppy punches and slaps you are much better off avoiding or absorbing the hit while hitting back.

So that's my contribution to the "E" in "JREF" for the day.


I don't think you were being serious when you said that instincts like closing ones eyes when being hit is enhanced in Hisardut. That's not what happens. Read my post #126.

The point is that techniques "designed to enhance instinctive responses using natural body mechanics" won't work. It's a woo-MA sales pitch, nothing more.

[thaiboxerken]

The pseudo skeptic in you and Kevin is strong.


I think this sums up what you are. I've only seen bleevers use the term "pseudo skeptic."

[thaiboxerken]

It's not a particularly bold claim.

Nice try, but I'm certain that everyone else in the thread understood which claims I find rather disingenuous.

[cornsail]

I was kidding, hence the smiley.

[yairhol]

I think this sums up what you are. I've only seen bleevers use the term "pseudo skeptic."

I'm not sure if what you said here was meant as a joke.
If it was then I appologize for MY "E" contribution in JREF:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcello_Truzzi#Pseudoskepticism

http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/sheldrake.html

[Flo]

The pseudo skeptic in you and Kevin is strong.
You have not seen a single demonstration of Hisardut or maybe even not heard of it until my posts yet you seem to know that it doesn't work.
saying that enhancing instinctive responses doesn't work, like you said is so much BS. Raising one's arm up countering a punch or slap doesn't work? really? So what should one do instead? I'd love to hear that.
I don't think you were being serious when you said that instincts like closing ones eyes when being hit is enhanced in Hisardut. That's not what happens. Read my post #126.

I've read post #126, and it confirms my "diagnosis".


I remember that Dr. Hanover once volunteered me to show a move he wanted to teach against an attacker coming to slap me. He was the attacker and even before he taught what to do he said "think fast, what would you do now" and he gave me a nice big slap on the head. It shook me as I stood there like a tree. He asked again, "what would you do now" and slapped again. Only on the third time did I raise my hand in defense which he congratulated me and said that that is exactly the instinct that we have and the most effective thing to do followed by other moves that he then taught in order to not only defend yourself but also neutralize your opponent.

Note the bold bits: your instinctive response was to stand there like a tree, not to defend yourself. Only on the 3rd try did you try to defend yourself, and I'm pretty sure you'd still have gotten badly beaten had the blow been full speed and force. This is consistent with what any serious MA instructors observe and have to do with beginners: start with getting rid of instinctive responses, that are both inappropriate and ineffective.

I say ineffective, because, as others have said, blocking a punch/slap works at best once, on the condition that you block at the right time, speed, and place, and are ready to counter the next blows and to attack yourself. It isn't instinctive, but on the contrary demands a long and constant training in order to overcome your natural tendencies and to learn appropriate responses.

Any MA, or style withing a MA*, I've seen or heard of that promises you will learn that kind of things easily and simply has proved utter woo whenever it has been put to the test against more realistic fighting techniques.

* I regularly meet people who pretend having found a better, easier, simpler technique/way to teach kendo and to bring beginners to championship level. Said practitionners get systematically beaten to a pulp in real practice, and the beginners get totally discouraged at their first competition. And don't get me started about the pathetic "Ninja" who come asking to be attacked with a bokken because they've just been taught the great secret Krav-naga enhanced ninja technique that allows them to block a blade between their bare hands ...

[yairhol]

Any MA, or style withing a MA*, I've seen or heard of that promises you will learn that kind of things easily and simply has proved utter woo whenever it has been put to the test against more realistic fighting techniques.

* I regularly meet people who pretend having found a better, easier, simpler technique/way to teach kendo and to bring beginners to championship level. Said practitionners get systematically beaten to a pulp in real practice, and the beginners get totally discouraged at their first competition. And don't get me started about the pathetic "Ninja" who come asking to be attacked with a bokken because they've just been taught the great secret Krav-naga enhanced ninja technique that allows them to block a blade between their bare hands ...

I don't understand why you said this. I haven't seen a formal place where it says that Hisardut is easy or better than other techniques. It does say that it is simplistic so that you don't learn katas and other stuff that have nothing to do with the fighting itself (a side from advocating patriotism like I said earlier).

Your words here are out of context to the OP's request which in part I quote below:

A practical art that could help me in self-defence situation.

I take this self-defence request as mostly not fighting against other martial artists but more taking care of yourself when met with everyday threatening situations.
Everyone, no matter his training, can face a better guy who'll beat him on the street. I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP meant. Instead, if a random guy on the street hackles him and his wife and starts getting agressive, the OP would know how to neutralize him.

I randomly found this clip of Hisardut basics from the History channel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYTQG1YsWxQ

Personally I think that the best thing to get out of martial arts training, boxing etc (regarding self defense), is the ability to take a punch without getting into shock which is what would probably happen to the average person on the street. Training in full contact makes you better immune to kicks and punches. In order to overpower the average person, it would be sufficient that you have better stamina than he does and you know how to take punches and kicks. Once you start hitting back and he doesn't have those abilities, he'll not be standing for long.

[JoeyDonuts]

Personally I think that the best thing to get out of martial arts training, boxing etc (regarding self defense), is the ability to take a punch without getting into shock which is what would probably happen to the average person on the street. Training in full contact makes you better immune to kicks and punches. In order to overpower the average person, it would be sufficient that you have better stamina than he does and you know how to take punches and kicks. Once you start hitting back and he doesn't have those abilities, he'll not be standing for long.

I agree with most of this, but have yet to be convinced by any art claiming some sort of legitimacy by riding the coat-tails of elite military units.

If the Sayaret Matkal ever have to use this 'training' then their armed combat and small-unit tactics are seriously lacking.

Ask most of the dudes that are actually IN these units what they think of thse unarmed combat systems, and I think you'll find that nearly all of them would rather spend their time training MOUT/weapons/or the shooting house.

If you need an 'elite RBSD Defendo SCARS' course to teach you how to kick the ass of a famished 120 lb. insurgent, you're not a very damned good Ranger.

And besides, if military units find themselves within H2H range of an enemy, than hundreds of years of weapons and tactics have failed. Sudden blitz attacks can and do happen in a MOUT environment, but this is the point in the sequence of events where the troop watching your back shoots the ********** in the face.

The problem I have with these kinds of arts is that they intimate they will give you some sort of elite military fighting prowess without actually requiring you to go through what makes them so damned tough in the first place - and it ain't playin' krotty in a RedMan suit.

[novaphile]

I notice a few claims being made that don't match my own experiences.

I started out with jiu-jitsu and it covered: punches, kicks, lots of throws, grappling, weapons training (mainly knives) and system training (everyone tries to attack a single defender). The latter was really difficult, mainly for the attackers, because it is really hard to not get in each other's way.

I settled on Wing Chun and, assuming you find a good school, can recommend it for the following reasons:

1. Zero woo.
2. Practical aerobic training during warm-ups and warm downs (mainly rapid repetition of basic techniques).
3. No injuries during training.
4. Full contact training in full body armour.
5. Devastating techniques.
6. No flying around in the air or gymnastic contortions required.
7. Very practical weapons training using household objects - chairs, stools, garden tools, tennis rackets etc.
8. I particularly liked training with the wooden dummy, although in later years tended to break them too often (I tend to get over excited sometimes)...

[JoeyDonuts]

I'm not sold on The Chun either.

It's mostly #3 on your list that gives me pause. I've gotten injured doing point sparring in TKD back in the day. I don't see any art claiming #5 co-existing with #3.

[Wudang]

A training partner for many years was ex UK special forces and he said all they were ever taught was various ways to break a sentry's neck etc for covert entry.

[Wudang]

and #4 sucks as well.

It makes you lazy and you don't learn to ride/absorb/take a blow.

[Redtail]

If you need an 'elite RBSD Defendo SCARS' course to teach you how to kick the ass of a famished 120 lb. insurgent, you're not a very damned good Ranger.



Military H2H is pretty much VERY basic Judo/kickboxing/BJJ (Like 13-15 moves total... Well in the Army anyway.) From my time at Ft. Campbell, I watched 5th group a lot in the gym after my injury & on my way out, and they had a guy (he was SF too) who was a black belt in Judo and BJJ. Another guy was a former Golden Gloves boxer. They would train on the mats and in the ring 3 times a week. Also I have two relatives who were SEALS and several friends who are now Green Berets and none of them have told me anything different.

Having said that, what Wudang said A training partner for many years was ex UK special forces and he said all they were ever taught was various ways to break a sentry's neck etc for covert entry.

Falls in line with what they told me too. Basically, if you have to go H2H several things have gone very, very, wrong. They train for it, and they train hard, but if they really have to use it (outside of a bar) somebody's going to be buying a lot of beer.

[JoeyDonuts]

A training partner for many years was ex UK special forces and he said all they were ever taught was various ways to break a sentry's neck etc for covert entry.

Which is basically the only time a troop would willingly put himself that close to a target. And even then we're talking about snake-eaters who would have an occupational need for this technique.

When I was stationed on USS LastShip, we found a .pdf file of a US Army field manual with sentry neutralization stuff in it. A lot of graphic-pen comic-book style drawings. We used to print them out and then 'edit' them, adding text balloons and gore as necessary.

My favorite one was where you grab a sentry's helmet from behind and just yank the bastard to the ground in a snappy fashion.

[Wudang]

Oh yes, a lot of them do it as a hobby. In fact the UK Marines have their own judo school - the commandokwai. And my friend and many of his mates trained in various forms of "jap slapping" as they called it but it was never part of the curriculum. Despite the best efforts of the people in charge of buying gear it seems the SAS can still afford to buy the odd gun etc, or could in my pals day.

If anybody wants a military reference I'd find out what the Military Police train in not special forces.


Eta: a quick google tells me people seem to be teaching "SAS jap slapping" as a martial arts system. Sheesh!

[JoeyDonuts]

If anybody wants a military reference I'd find out what the Military Police train in not special forces.

Where the USN is concerned (MA's), from what I've gathered through my meager force protection training and talking with many of them, it's pretty much the same things you'd learn working on the police force.

[Wudang]

I remember some blusterer years back on here claiming to be a martial arts expert based on the "too deadly to be used " krav maga techniques he'd learned as an MP in one of the Scandinavian countries. Riiiiiiiiiiight! He won't come quietly then snap his spine like a twig. Yet one more example of how made-up **** should not be too extemporaneous.

[GreNME]

I'm not sold on The Chun either.

It's mostly #3 on your list that gives me pause. I've gotten injured doing point sparring in TKD back in the day. I don't see any art claiming #5 co-existing with #3.

I don't think that you're always to to get #3 guaranteed in Wing Chun. The few sifus I've met didn't guarantee it, except for the lower levels of classes. Didn't hear much about "full body armor" either, though sometimes there was headgear and chest pads. Also, one sifu I know is getting ready to (or currently) doing some teaching of some hand-to-hand at a military base in the same state (don't know which, I'll ask him when I move back in-state), and the class he's teaching isn't going to be for novices. Another sifu I met was a monk for nearly ten years and knew or worked with a lot of guys who were doing the Chinese film stunt fighter thing for a while. A buddy of mine is training up with the first sifu mentioned to eventually start teaching classes himself (basically doing between 5-10 hours of training a day). A couple of these guys are also somewhat into the JKD philosophy, though, so maybe that colors their application (they also teach more than just WC).

That said, every now and then I detect a bit of heavy claims or questionable "this can allow you to..." statements when talking to my buddy (but never with the other two so far). I'm not trying to sell you on Wing Chun, but I do think that it's a very impressive style. I'm going to start learning the basics to get my ass back in shape when I move back, and I chose it specifically because it's something I can learn without having to be concerned that my 'after-market modifications' (lots of titanium parts) were going to stop me from being able to do stuff-- I noticed a lot of practical stuff without excessive movements that were part of stuff I'd learned before.

But again, I'm not trying to sell you on Wing Chun. I'm taking it myself because it's going to get me back in shape, not so I can be a tough guy. I'm not a tough guy not because I can't fight, but because I don't like to get hit (this made me a bad boxer back in my teens... not because I can't take a hit but because I'm head-shy). I don't want to be a tough guy. I already know how to break a nose or give a shot to the throat if I had to, and I don't ever want to have to. I want to be in shape and have some fun learning something that's interesting. I just don't have the mindset of "in a fight I'm gonna... and then I'll..." that I used to see in some classmates or even some instructors in the past. I'm just passing along why I was interested enough to consider taking it and why I will be once I get closer to these guys' zip code.

[JoeyDonuts]

Long Fist is an interesting and impressive style.

Watching somebody slap box a Wing Chun dummy is impressive.

Juggling bowling pins while riding a unicycle is also pretty impressive.

What do these three have in common?

[GreNME]

Bears can do all three if sufficiently trained?

[qayak]

Where the USN is concerned (MA's), from what I've gathered through my meager force protection training and talking with many of them, it's pretty much the same things you'd learn working on the police force.

Not for the ones attached to Marine units.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

Military H2H is pretty much VERY basic Judo/kickboxing/BJJ (Like 13-15 moves total... Well in the Army anyway.)

I have copies of both the U.S. Army and Marine H2H manuals and there are a lot more than 13-15 moves. Actually, they are both quite extensive.

[JoeyDonuts]

Not for the ones attached to Marine units.

You typically don't find MA's assigned to Marine units. That's not to say it doesn't happen (HM's have crossover for FMF purposes) but even then - in the performance of their duties they're not using MCMAP, they're using the use of force continuum, which includes LE control techniques.

If presence, verbal warning, soft control, and pepper spray don't work, they won't waste time throwing punches and kicks - they'll beat your ass with an ASP.