Hoon simply can't resign!!

[Reginald]

For those not aware of the current MOD gaffs see here...

BBC Article Hoon (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3401879.stm)

He can't resign because the goverment needs someone (I suspect him) to resign after Hutton reports back. So if he goes after this shortage of equipment scandal, he won't be here to take the fall for Hutton and big Tony will be stuck looking for some other chap (for chap read "Mug") to fall on his own sword. I think he will go after the results of the inquiry are known and it will be used to kill two brids with one stone. If you are going to sacrifice a minister you may as well get good value for money from the event

[richardm]

Weeel. I dunno. I tend to think that the unwillingness of ministers to resign at the drop of a hat is a good development. It gives them a chance to get to grips with the job instead of having a steady churn of newbies.

Having said that, you may be right that he's going to be a sacrificial lamb. Unless Hutton exonerates everyone, of course ;)

... I'd also add that as far as the equipment shortage goes, the equipment was in Iraq, but wasn't distributed. So if anyone should be pilloried, it should be the army QMs.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by richardm
... I'd also add that as far as the equipment shortage goes, the equipment was in Iraq, but wasn't distributed. So if anyone should be pilloried, it should be the army QMs.

You are quite right, and I think it should be pointed out that it was correct that this mans armour should have been given to an infantryman instead, tank crews typically have quite a bit of it around.

More worrying is the kind of thing I was talking about in my Col. Colins thread. Most soldiers buy extra stuff for themselves because the standard issue kit is pants or because they havent even been issued their standard issue in the first case.

Corporal C. who was my instructor on my phase one training was mobilised, when he got in theatre they tested his respirator, found it didnt work, binned it and gave him a chit saying he was excused from wearing one in the event of an attack :eek:

Quite strange since the gov sent him there because Saddam had all those truckloads of mustard gas, dontcha think they might have made sure there were enough respirators to go around?

[Jon_in_london]

Its not like they didnt know this war was coming or anything. Not as if Iraq suddenly attacked us out of the blue...

So why were there all of these desperate shortages of desert kit, for example, why were so many of our troops wearing the standard 'melt on the march' boots combat black instead of proper desert boots?

Could it be because the MoD would rather save £10 than a soldiers life?

There is certainly a case to be answered.

[richardm]

I suspect that it was because politically speaking, they couldn't start ramping up the logistics early enough 'cos it would make it look like they were going to war regardless of what Parliament thought. Which is, after all, the case. So I suppose they could be guilty of not getting the argument settled early enough.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by richardm
I suspect that it was because politically speaking, they couldn't start ramping up the logistics early enough 'cos it would make it look like they were going to war regardless of what Parliament thought. Which is, after all, the case. So I suppose they could be guilty of not getting the argument settled early enough.

Well, they certainly had a massive excercise in Oman quite a while before, they didnt even pretend that it wasnt in preparation for Iraq.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Well, they certainly had a massive excercise in Oman quite a while before, they didnt even pretend that it wasnt in preparation for Iraq.

Ah, didn't know that. It must just have been standard incompetence then :D

[Hutch]

....and timelines for procurement.

Not sure how it works in GB, but in the US system you have to define the requirement in excrutiating detail, plan the funding, go out for competitive bids, negotiate the contract, re-negotiate when the low bidder defaults, reject the first 2-3 runs of the product because they do not meet contractual standards, and then finally begin to produce the items, but usually in small initial quantities for testing and validation, and then maybe you can start buying the large quantities needed.

Often a 18-24 month process here, and I wouldn't doubt it is equally as long in the UK. and when your talking about a major item like an airplane or helicopters....:hit:

[richardm]

Did anyone else see that Jeremy Clarkson programme last night about the development of the gun?

In it, he touched on the subject of body armour, and claimed that the weight of it and all the equipment a modern soldier had to carry was so much, that many soldiers chose to replace the steel plates with cardboard.

Don't know if that's remotely true, but it does make you think.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by richardm
Did anyone else see that Jeremy Clarkson programme last night about the development of the gun?

In it, he touched on the subject of body armour, and claimed that the weight of it and all the equipment a modern soldier had to carry was so much, that many soldiers chose to replace the steel plates with cardboard.

Don't know if that's remotely true, but it does make you think.

The body armour he had isnt army issue, I dont know where he gets that cardboard story from.

The armour we get isnt that heavy because it doesnt have those solid plates. It isnt bullet proof btw but it will slow down a rifle bullet so it doesnt leave a gaping exit wound, which increases your chance of survival.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Hutch
....and timelines for procurement.

Not sure how it works in GB, but in the US system you have to define the requirement in excrutiating detail, plan the funding, go out for competitive bids, negotiate the contract, re-negotiate when the low bidder defaults, reject the first 2-3 runs of the product because they do not meet contractual standards, and then finally begin to produce the items, but usually in small initial quantities for testing and validation, and then maybe you can start buying the large quantities needed.

Often a 18-24 month process here, and I wouldn't doubt it is equally as long in the UK. and when your talking about a major item like an airplane or helicopters....:hit:

Not talking about fancy new technology or hardware or stuff.... just simple things like trousers.... the MoD was frantically buying stuff back from surplus stores and placing urgent orders with factories in China....***** like that.

[Jon_in_london]

Oops...

Seems like the CO of the Black Watch has spilled the beans about his regiment not getting enough NBC kit...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3419153.stm

Oh well, the regiment is going to be axed soon in anycase.

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Oh well, the regiment is going to be axed soon in anycase. Never! The Black Watch will still be here long after this government is consigned to history.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
Never! The Black Watch will still be here long after this government is consigned to history.

I hope you are right but fear you are wrong.

Just because you are a famous regiment with a long and illustrious history, doesnt mean you wont get chopped or amalgamated into some new bastard regiment.

Edit: Witness what happened to The Buffs (http://www.digiserve.com/peter/buffs/history.htm) - who can trace their llineage back to 1572, or rather they could if they werent now goobled up by the bastard PWRR "Diana's Own"

Battle Hnours:


BLENHEIM, RAMILLES, OUDENARDE, MALPLAQUET, DETTINGEN, GUADELOUPE 1759, DOURO, TALAVERA, ALBUHERA, VITTORIA, PYRENEES, NIVELLE, NIVE, ORTHES, TOULOUSE, PENINSULA, PUNNIAR, SEVASTOPOL, TAKU FORTS, SOUTH AFRICA 1879, CHITRAL, RELIEF OF KIMBERLEY, PAARDEBERG, SOUTH AFRICA 1900-02

ARMENTIERES 1914, YPRES 1915 '17, Gravenstafel, St. Julien, Frezenberg, Bellewaarde, Hooge 1915, LOOS, SOMME 1916 '18, Albert 1916 '18, Bazentin, Delville Wood, Pozieres, Flers-Courcelette, Morval, Thiepval, Le Transloy, Ancre Heights, Ancre 1916 '18, ARRAS 1917, Scarpe 1917, Messines 1917, Pilckem, Passchendaele, Cambrai 1917 '18, St. Quentin, AMIENS, Bapaume 1918, HINDENBURG LINE, Epehy, St. Quentin Canal, Selle, Sambre, France and Flanders 1914-18, STRUMA, Doiran 1918, Macedonia 1915-18, Gaza, JERSUSALEM, Tell 'Asur, Palestine 1917-18, Aden, Tigris 1916, Kut al Amara 1917, BAGDAD, Mesopotamia 1915-18

Defence of Escaut, St. Omer la Bassee, Withdrawal to Seine, NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1940, Sidi Suleiman, ALEM HAMZA, Alam el Halfa, EL ALAMEIN, El Agheila, Advance on Tripoli, Tebaga Gap, El Hamma, Akarit, Djebel Azzag 1943, ROBAA VALLEY, Djebel Bech Chekaoui, Heidous, Medjez Plain, Longstop Hill 1943, North Africa 1942-43, Centuripe, Monte Rivoglia, SICILY 1943, Termoli, TRIGNO, Sangro, ANZIO, Cassino I, Liri Valley, Aquino, Rome, Trasimene Line, Coriano, Monte Spaduro, Senio, ARGENTA GAP, Italy 1943-45, LEROS, Middle East 1943, Malta 1940-42, SHWELI, Myitson, Burma 1945

[Reginald]

The swell of public opinion is rather amusing given that during periods of peace it's the same public opinion that complains that the same money that purchased "that body armour" could be used to pay for a kidney machine.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Reginald
The swell of public opinion is rather amusing given that during periods of peace it's the same public opinion that complains that the same money that purchased "that body armour" could be used to pay for a kidney machine.

Yup, I guess its mainly because the tabloids can say "so&so's life could have been saved if....."

Of course, with this government, you could have the armour and the kidney machine if you got rid of the cronyism and corruption.