What's on Mars that they're hiding?

[lilac]

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theory muppet :) does anyone think that the recent events surrounding probes to Mars is rather strange?

Firstly, Beagle goes missing. Then an American probe lans on Mars. Then Bush announces that in the next 15 years or so, they want to put a space station on the moon to launch probes to Mars.

It strikes me that maybe they've found something on Mars that they don't want us to know about. Why else would there be the massive amount of expenditure involved in making the moon a launch pad and building on it. Did Beagle really go missing, or is it picking up something that they don't want publicised?

I think I read somewhere that they had found structures ont he surface of Mars- and more strangely, someone commented on transient structures in pictures. Could it be that something has been discovered on Mars- something the american government want to control the release of information about... a valuable resource, or the evidence of existance of another form of life?

Lilac (Conspiracy Theorist on Fridays)

[Hexxenhammer]

Mmm.....no.

[Undodog]

Yeah! And all that race-to-the-moon stuff in the 60's! What's on the moon that they STILL haven't told us about?

And what about that Meteor thats going to hit us in 16 years? Where's that gone?

And will using ClingFilm still give me cancer?

[Demigorgon]

Where the logic breaks down with these conspiracy theories about space exploration in general is: If they had they slightest hint of something "unusual" or structures or what not, NASA would be announcing it like crazy, because then we would be shoveling money at them like never before.

[Correa Neto]

Because the actual missions are aimed at Planet X. Spirit, Beagle, the Moon landing, they are all fake, mere cover-ups. The real money is spent on the missions to Planet X, and they will never tell us about tem. A small piece of the cash goes to a secret studio at Area 51 where the FX for the fake missions are made. Ever noticed that images get better from year to year, mission to mission? Its not a coincidence that FX and CGI also improves at the same time...

How do I know all of this? I have my sources, I can not reveal.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by lilac

Could it be that something has been discovered on Mars- something the american government want to control the release of information about... a valuable resource, or the evidence of existance of another form of life?


Indeed.

http://abc.net.au/science/slab/mars/elvis.jpg

[voidx]

I'm far to restless with anticipation of Spirits arrival at a nearby rock to even consider conspiracy theories. But I bet you Beagle probably found a really cool Mars rock that the NASA folk want for their aquarium, and secretive bastards that they are, aren't sharing with anyone else.

"Where'd you get that cool rock in your fishtank?"
"NOT MARS!!!"

[geni]

probes to other planets (say venus) have a similar failer rate people just don't remember them. Zond 1 anyone?

[LTC8K6]

You don't think it's possible that we want to make the moon a launch pad to Mars because of it's low gravity, do you, lilac?

Maybe it's a wee bit easier to lift things from the moon?

[Beleth]

Originally posted by LTC8K6
You don't think it's possible that we want to make the moon a launch pad to Mars because of it's low gravity, do you, lilac?

Maybe it's a wee bit easier to lift things from the moon? See, that's what I don't get about this idea.

Yes, it's easier to lift things from the Moon. But how did it get to the Moon in the first place? It either came from Earth, or it was created on the Moon.

If it came from Earth, wouldn't it be easier to just keep sending it to Mars instead of having it stop at the Moon first?

If it was created on the Moon, that means that we'd have to mine the raw materials from the Moon. And we are so far away from doing that, it's not funny.

So I see it this way. Making the Moon a launch pad to Mars is either a waste of energy, or at least a hundred years in the future.

And it's not going to be built by Americans a hundred years from now, because in less than twenty years, we will have lost our technological advantage over other countries. That is, unless we start aiming some more money at schools. But I digress.

[Trebuchet]

Hmmm...
Space probe finds some artifact indicating extraterrestrial life. Government hides it but launches a massive effort to go find the source. Sounds like a certain Clarke/Kubrick epic to me! We're just about 3 years late....

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by Beleth
See, that's what I don't get about this idea.

Yes, it's easier to lift things from the Moon. But how did it get to the Moon in the first place? It either came from Earth, or it was created on the Moon.

If it came from Earth, wouldn't it be easier to just keep sending it to Mars instead of having it stop at the Moon first?

If it was created on the Moon, that means that we'd have to mine the raw materials from the Moon. And we are so far away from doing that, it's not funny.

So I see it this way. Making the Moon a launch pad to Mars is either a waste of energy, or at least a hundred years in the future.

And it's not going to be built by Americans a hundred years from now, because in less than twenty years, we will have lost our technological advantage over other countries. That is, unless we start aiming some more money at schools. But I digress.


I understand that taking stuff to the Moon, putting it together and then launching it from the Moon takes more energy than just launching it from the Earth in the first place..

But it still seems to me, that creating a Moon outpost seems to be a logical step in space exploration. An assembly, testing and staging point if you will..

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by lilac


Firstly, Beagle goes missing. Then an American probe lans on Mars. Then Bush announces that in the next 15 years or so, they want to put a space station on the moon to launch probes to Mars.



Which do you find more fantastic?

That we can launch a giant rocket at unimaginable speeds up through our atmosphere out of Earth's Gravity, across more than 35 million miles through the harsh climbs of space, and have it make a safe and secure landing, spit out a smallish probe that we control with signals sent from Earth that dirves aorund the surface of Mars and sends us back pictures...

Or that we tried all this and something went wrong along the way and one of the probes crashed...

Personally. I'm amazed with all the possibilities of failure, that we could get a rock to land on Mars unscathed.

So the beagle losing communication (not necessarily missing, it's just that we can't talk to it to find out) is surely not out of the ordinary.

The American probe has been in the planning stages for years...

So the only unusual thing in this mix is really Bush's sudden insistence that we send someone there.

But that can be explaine through any number of political or economic pressures.

Just doesn't strike me as that odd really.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Andonyx
Just doesn't strike me as that odd really. Serious irony bypass here.

Rolfe.

[patnray]

The government knew that conspiracy theorists would immediatley question what we're hiding on Mars, and they timed their announcement to fuel those flames. There never really was a Beagle. It was just a story to focus everyone's attention on Mars...

Since a moon base isn't really necessary for a Mars mission, Mars is just a smoke screen. The real question is what is the real (secret) purpose for building a moon base?

To conduct secret nuclear tests on the far side?
A secret prison for terrorism suspects or unruly Democrats?
An exclusive resort for large campaign contributors?
To funnel more money to Halliburton?
To practice flying captured alien space ships without attracting attention?
To prepare for the arrival of Planet X?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[LFTKBS]

This one's easy:

"The PNAC and its members had long called for the United States to abandon the ABM Treaty. The PNAC also proposes to control the new "international commons" of space and "cyberspace" and pave the way for the creation of a new military service - U.S. Space Forces - with the mission of space control."

From Project for the New American Century (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC) entry at Wikipedia.

Also see http://newamericancentury.org/

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by patnray
The government knew that conspiracy theorists would immediatley question what we're hiding on Mars, and they timed their announcement to fuel those flames. There never really was a Beagle. It was just a story to focus everyone's attention on Mars...

Since a moon base isn't really necessary for a Mars mission, Mars is just a smoke screen. The real question is what is the real (secret) purpose for building a moon base?

To conduct secret nuclear tests on the far side?
A secret prison for terrorism suspects or unruly Democrats?
An exclusive resort for large campaign contributors?
To funnel more money to Halliburton?
To practice flying captured alien space ships without attracting attention?
To prepare for the arrival of Planet X?

Inquiring minds want to know...

To do what we should have done thirty years ago and have a permanent moon colony, as we would have by now. In this context, "we" doesn't just mean Americans either.

It's worth doing, regardless of what asinine political reasons W may have, regardless of what reasons JFK had.

Solve all our problems on Earth first? Meaning make everything once and for all perfect? That's suicide talk. :p

[eli54]

:D

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
This one's easy:

"The PNAC and its members had long called for the United States to abandon the ABM Treaty. The PNAC also proposes to control the new "international commons" of space and "cyberspace" and pave the way for the creation of a new military service - U.S. Space Forces - with the mission of space control."

From Project for the New American Century (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC) entry at Wikipedia.

Also see http://newamericancentury.org/

I've logged quite a few hours at X-Wing and Wing Commander on my PC! Time to join up and Save The Galaxy!

[Kopji]

Well the conspiracy see, is that we know Mars is actually a great big mudball covered by a thin layer of dust and rock. The spacecraft are landing ok, but quickly sinking beneath the surface.

We are actually choosing the landing sites for solid places to land, not places of water as we are being told.

Note the strange fear of engineers to go look at the 'magic carpet' mud. Now, what good would it do for future Mars missions to have our last 'Spirit' images be that from a slowly sinking pancam?

We'd much rather go look at the crater over that-a-way. :D

[Darwin'sGoat]

http://clinton3.nara.gov/Initiatives/Millennium/shawking.html

In the last two hundred years the growth has become exponential, that is, the population grows by the same percentage each year. Currently the rate is about 1.9% a year. 1.9 % may not sound very much but it means that the world population doubles every 40 years. Other measures of technological development in recent times are electricity consumption, or the number of scientific articles. They also show exponential growth with a doubling time of 40 years or less.

...

But the present exponential growth can not continue for the next millennium. By the year 2600 the world's population would be standing shoulder to shoulder and the electricity consumption would make the Earth glow red hot.

We can't stay here forever Beleth.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Darwin'sGoat


We can't stay here forever Beleth.

This is true of course, though your example doesn't take into account that populations stabilize themselves pretty easily - and I know it's a facetious example - no dig on you there. And I think that going to the moon and Mars are Good Things To Do and I wholeheartedly support space exploration. It's quite cheap compared to, you know, war. I just wish that this had been done for reasons of intellectual curiousity on the part of the President and not because we'd like to weaponize space.

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by Darwin'sGoat


We can't stay here forever Beleth.

What are the current population growth numbers?

I think it's 20,000 people that would need to be launched into space every single day just to keep our population in check.

Population pressures would need to be solved by other means, space travel isn't one of them.
We'd need to solve the overpopulation problem long before getting to the point where we could launch them all into space.

[BrianT]

Hmmm...
Space probe finds some artifact indicating extraterrestrial life. Government hides it but launches a massive effort to go find the source. Sounds like a certain Clarke/Kubrick epic to me! We're just about 3 years late....
Which reminds me of a question I have. In the movie, which part actually takes place in 2001? Obviously not the apes, but the Monolith is dug up and is then followed by the caption "Eighteen months later..." with the Jupiter mission.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by Undodog
Yeah! And all that race-to-the-moon stuff in the 60's! What's on the moon that they STILL haven't told us about?

And what about that Meteor thats going to hit us in 16 years? Where's that gone?

And will using ClingFilm still give me cancer?

They found a monolith with the following ratios for depth, width and height...


1:3:9

[davidhorman]

1:3:9

Wasn't it 1:4:9? The first three cubes?

(edit: and when I say cubes, I mean, of course, squares)

Either way it doesn't look like 1:4:9 on screen - it looks thinner to me.

David

[Powa]

Originally posted by davidhorman
(edit: and when I say cubes, I mean, of course, squares)
And when you say squares, you mean, of course, circles?

Edited for sloppiness.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Originally posted by Correa Neto
Because the actual missions are aimed at Planet X. Spirit, Beagle, the Moon landing, they are all fake, mere cover-ups. The real money is spent on the missions to Planet X, and they will never tell us about tem. A small piece of the cash goes to a secret studio at Area 51 where the FX for the fake missions are made. Ever noticed that images get better from year to year, mission to mission? Its not a coincidence that FX and CGI also improves at the same time...

How do I know all of this? I have my sources, I can not reveal.


Area 51 is a smokescreen. The REAL secrets are contained within Area 53 (Just down the road from Area 52, you can't miss it).

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Bottle or the Gun



Area 51 is a smokescreen. The REAL secrets are contained within Area 53 (Just down the road from Area 52, you can't miss it).

Fool! the really juicy stuff is hidden in Iraq! It was stashed there when saddam was our friend, that why we had to have a war to get them all back before the UN 'weapons' inspectors found them!

[Powa]

The stuff that was in Afghanistan has already been recovered, I presume?

[Ladewig]

If it came from Earth, wouldn't it be easier to just keep sending it to Mars instead of having it stop at the Moon first?

If it was created on the Moon, that means that we'd have to mine the raw materials from the Moon. And we are so far away from doing that, it's not funny.

So I see it this way. Making the Moon a launch pad to Mars is either a waste of energy, or at least a hundred years in the future.

A ship big enough to get humans to Mars (and get them back) would have to be really, really big. Such a ship would take so long to build that it might be more practical perform subassemblies on the moon and build it in lunar orbit.

As for asking what is on Mars, I say nothing that we didn't know about when GWB's father proposed the same thing during his administration.

[patnray]

Originally posted by Ladewig
A ship big enough to get humans to Mars (and get them back) would have to be really, really big. Such a ship would take so long to build that it might be more practical perform subassemblies on the moon and build it in lunar orbit.


You are assuming the old (1950's and 60's) approach, which is to build a huge ship that includes everything needed to get to Mars, land, stay for 9 months, and then return. Like the Appollo missions on a gigantic scale.

Current thinking is to use much smaller rockets, but many of them. The laboratory/habitat, supplies, a return vehicle, a nuclear power station, and a fuel and oxygen making "factory" would be sent ahead of the men. See the March 2001 Scientific American for an example. Such an approach is entirely feasible from earth orbit and does not require a moon base...

[eli54]

An editorial over the weekend suggested a one-way trip. Sacrifice and all that. Seems overly cruel to me, but test pilots die for much less reward.

[DVFinn]

Dear Nasa psyentists,

Don't tell no won but im perty shore Saddam is hidin some WMDs on Mars. Stands ta raison, Mars is red, commies is red. That just caint be a quinsidance. The peepol of the USA must be protected from the threat of a marshun launched attack. The CIA called me on my sekret shoe fone and told me that Saddam was also trying to import martian technology across the Syrian border.

Now it is importent that the marshun peeple no that we are not their enemy. We are going to mars to free them from terony. We are the friend of the marshun people, and of free and piece luvin peoples throughout the feduration.

Pleese direct evry effert inta gittin us ta mars.

Sicerly,
George W. Bush

PS

Dick, please put this in fancy psyentist langwage.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Fool! the really juicy stuff is hidden in Iraq! It was stashed there when saddam was our friend, that why we had to have a war to get them all back before the UN 'weapons' inspectors found them!

Sad, deluded & compromised fool...I see that the Area 52 Shadow-administrators have gotten to you also!

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Serious irony bypass here.

Rolfe.

Umm....I'm sorry..I'm going to feel really thick, but I'm not sure I follow you.

[asthmatic camel]

What's on Mars that they're hiding?

Shemp's brain

[Bottle or the Gun]

Discovery news, Jan. 20, 2004 — NASA's Spirit rover arrived at its first destination over the weekend, a football-sized rock that looks remarkably like a rock in an earthly desert.

Now is that 'remarkably' like or 'suspiciously' like?

[Darwin'sGoat]

Originally posted by Bottle or the Gun
Discovery news, Jan. 20, 2004 — NASA's Spirit rover arrived at its first destination over the weekend, a football-sized rock that looks remarkably like a rock in an earthly desert.

Now is that 'remarkably' like or 'suspiciously' like?

Remarkably. It's Superbowl time. American's were actually expecting it to be a football.

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by patnray
Current thinking is to use much smaller rockets, but many of them. The laboratory/habitat, supplies, a return vehicle, a nuclear power station, and a fuel and oxygen making "factory" would be sent ahead of the men. See the March 2001 Scientific American for an example. Such an approach is entirely feasible from earth orbit and does not require a moon base...

I have not seen the article, but are these separate things designed to attempt a Mars landing? How can they guarantee that they will land near each other?

If they do not need to survive a landing, by building them in space you could save a lot of weight by not shielding them as thoroughly.

[Agammamon]

Does anyone remember the printer commercial from a few years back (when the 1st rover landed)? It showed the surface from the view of the rover as it panned and then cut to show a couple of LGM holding up a picture and another by a printer spitting out a new image to hide the cities in the background.

[Powa]

Never seen the commercial but here's something similar:

[Powa]

Here's the attachment I forgot to attach: :)

[Darwin'sGoat]

Originally posted by Agammamon
Does anyone remember the printer commercial from a few years back (when the 1st rover landed)? It showed the surface from the view of the rover as it panned and then cut to show a couple of LGM holding up a picture and another by a printer spitting out a new image to hide the cities in the background.

Yeah, now that you've mentioned it, I remember it as well. HP Technology maybe?

[patnray]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj


I have not seen the article, but are these separate things designed to attempt a Mars landing? How can they guarantee that they will land near each other?

If they do not need to survive a landing, by building them in space you could save a lot of weight by not shielding them as thoroughly.

The article is here (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00087E38-5B46-1C75-9B81809EC588EF21&pageNumber=1) .

That issue contained a series of articles about possible manned missions to Mars. IMO, this is the most feasible approach. It does require sophisticated landers that can land softly in precise locations totally automatically. The first package to land could contain a beacon to help following landers locate it. Because each component is relatively small, each can be launched from earth without requiring expensive and risky assembly in space. I also like the idea of manufacturing fuel and oxygen from CO2 in the Martian atmosphere.

So, to get back to the original thread, since this can be accomplished most easily from earth or earth orbit, why go to the moon at all? What is the secret conspiratorial reason for returning to the moon????