Why did God kill 230,000 Haitians?

[Orphia Nay]

A guy on another forum posted a diatribe about how "God f'n Rocks" for recently giving him a good deal on his rent.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83304

But when I said, "God's a swell guy. Sure, he just killed 230,000 people in Haiti, but he gave John a great deal on his rent", John rambled and obfuscated about why God killed the Haitians, and basically blamed them for not believing in Him enough.

Can anyone give a better reason than that?

[plumjam]

Dunno. Why did God give those 230,000 Haitians life?

[Dave Rogers]

Dunno. Why did God give those 230,000 Haitians life?

Sorry - who, exactly, did he give the life to?

Dave

[Lothian]

A guy on another forum posted a diatribe about how "God f'n Rocks" for recently giving him a good deal on his rent.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83304

But when I said, "God's a swell guy. Sure, he just killed 230,000 people in Haiti, but he gave John a great deal on his rent", John rambled and obfuscated about why God killed the Haitians, and basically blamed them for not believing in Him enough.

Can anyone give a better reason than that?I recall at the time he was too busy helping Serena Williams wn the Australian Open to stop the earthquake.

[lionking]

Dunno. Why did God give those 230,000 Haitians life?
You can do a lot better than that PJ.

[Sean84]

Interpret this how you will but in believing with complete faith, man, I struck gold again!!!

I stopped reading there and have nothing relevant to add to this conversation.

[GreenLines]

God kills everyone. It's a thing.

[blobru]

A guy on another forum posted a diatribe about how "God f'n Rocks" for recently giving him a good deal on his rent.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83304

But when I said, "God's a swell guy. Sure, he just killed 230,000 people in Haiti, but he gave John a great deal on his rent", John rambled and obfuscated about why God killed the Haitians, and basically blamed them for not believing in Him enough.

Can anyone give a better reason than that?


So John can sublet his toolshed to Haitian refugees.

[Mr Clingford]

Indeed, what kind of God cares more about saving a guy a few bucks than the lives of quarter of a million people? If he acts for one but not the other? It doesn't make sense.

[Beerina]

A guy on another forum posted a diatribe about how "God f'n Rocks" for recently giving him a good deal on his rent.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83304

But when I said, "God's a swell guy. Sure, he just killed 230,000 people in Haiti, but he gave John a great deal on his rent", John rambled and obfuscated about why God killed the Haitians, and basically blamed them for not believing in Him enough.

Can anyone give a better reason than that?

It's not even a good reason. Grab the bull by the horns: "Is a God who would kill people for not believing in Him enough deserving of worship?"

[Sledge]

God is evil. As soon as you accept that, it all makes sense.

[Orphia Nay]

Dunno. Why did God give those 230,000 Haitians life?

"Dunno" and moving the goalposts is the best (and only) response a believer can give?

That's not even a fail.

[Kopji]

There is a small planet half a galaxy away named Zondo. A gazillion faithful Zondians were going to die when a small black hole collided. God raised his mighty hand and diverted the black hole to an insignificant blue speck safely distant, where only 230,000 humans would die.

God is great.

(Apologies to CS Lewis)

[ExMinister]

Is it just me or are people of all religious persuasions becoming a bit more cruel these days? From the new agers who told Robert Lancaster that he brought a stroke upon himself through bad karma/bad vibes, to the James Arthur Ray followers who said the victims died because they must have been harboring negative thoughts, to Christians saying that bad things happened to other people because they don't believe enough or due to some past sin or because they practiced the "wrong" religion.

What ever happened to "It was just their time to go"? It may not be any truer than anything else, but at least it's a little kinder. God isn't mad, you didn't do anything wrong. It was just time.

When something bad happens to the guy in the OP, is he likely to say that it's because he didn't believe enough? Is he going to consider that maybe he's been practicing the wrong religion? More likely he'll attribute it to something that reflects well on himself. Maybe God is "testing" him, God's tests are meant to make people stronger, God's ways are mysterious, God wants him to appreciate his blessings more, etc.

But maybe it's always been this way and I just hadn't noticed.


ETA: Please note that I don't mean to imply that all religious people are behaving this way. It's just something I've noticed more and more in public forums and in the press.

[annnnoid]

Seriously, I don’t know who are the bigger fools….the religious folks who interpret ‘God’ in such simplistic terms…or the skeptics who waste so much time ridiculing the religious folks for interpreting ‘God’ in such simplistic terms….and then go and do exactly the same thing.

[Sledge]

Yes, those foolish skeptics and their tendency to respond to what people say.

[annnnoid]

Ever heard of lemmings?

[Maia]

Ever heard of lemmings?

Yes. The original 1958 Disney documentary White Wilderness, which began the "mass lemming suicide" myth, was proven to be a staged fake set up by the camera crews. (Not difficult to find proof of this very well-known fact, but one source is here. (http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp)Lemmings do not actually behave this way, so their behavior definitely can't be extrapolated to humans.

[Safe-Keeper]

To answer Orphia, perhaps it wasn't God who killed those Haitians as much as it was our lack of caring that did. Similar to my not being attentive to the command of cleaning and preparing my house to be ready to move, have we (the planet as a collective) used all of the science, and technology and means of educating, taking care of and evolving, as one people of this Earth, instead of being focused on the petty, inane, mundane, illogical and wasteful things we fill our minds with and spend our time on? Perhaps if we were similar to the Na'vi and in tune with this planet, but also able to utilize our technological advancements, Earthquake detection would be a more accurate science, underwater and space exploration more underway, wars a thing of centuries old and the blaming of GOD for the death of so many as well as all other wrongs on this Earth... simply no more.Not this tripe again.

"Sure, God can override the free will of my neighbour to make her buy me a shed with money she might have been better off spending on other things, but saving people from a colossal earthquake? That we need to do ourselves, because, you know, we have the ability and the know-how to reduce loss of life drastically in that regard!"

At least he's got his priorities straight :rolleyes:. ETA: Not the least bit hypocritical either, telling orphia to prioritize when he himself finds it perfectly OK that God gave him a shed while letting the true horrors of the world continue on unabated. "Being focused on the petty, inane, mundane, illogical and wasteful things we fill our minds with and spend our time on" indeed.

We are not at a place of coming together yet. There has not been that one catalyzing, or is it, cataclysmic event that would be so great so that everyone
on Earth would have to give up on the things that are failing and focus on that which needs to be done. Events like that, like Haiti, bring us back to the
realization that WE ARE HUMAN and COME TOGETHER and WORK TOGETHER in an extraordinary way when we are made to. The human spirit perseveres
and overcomes all obstacles and hardships... with Peace being the greatest one yet to achieve, yet when we do achieve it, and look back on all that it took
to get to it, it will only make it that much greater and worth keeping, knowing that there could never be any other way... not the way we are living now.
Angel: "Hmm, let's see, people are not prioritizing the way I'd want them to. What can we do?"
God: "How about we take this third-world failed state that no one's ever heard of and kill a quarter of a million of their population, while throwing the country into even bigger turmoil than before?"
Angel: "Sounds like a plan. I'll get the choir of angel to start playing their HAARPs".

ETA #2: I see Orphia summed it up much better than me:
So, God killed the Haitians due to humanity's lack of caring.

But John, who's careless about packing, still got a great deal on his rent, a new shed, and a trip to Hawaii. But you see, Orphia, Haiti is just a bunch of foreigners. John is John, and without the shed he'd be sad! Surely you see that the Lord needs to prioritize?

ETA #3: I like this ridiculous strawman, too:
Let me guet this right: god is bad because dying is bad, death is bad when it is a murder, thousands died in Haiti killed by god, being killed is recognized as a bad thing, god if he wants to be good he should let people die from old age..even better for god to be good we are not to be dead "killed" in any way shape or form. Dying is bad in any way shape or form therefor god is bad in any shape or form. then i dont believe in a killer "god".

Sorry guys whom ever think this way is not able to see further than his nows, (if he can see at all), this "logical" thinking process can be valid if you control all the parameters in the experience, all those who try to apply this so called "logic" to refute the existance of god end up being CONTROL FREEKS and/or Goloms. http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/images/smiles/thwak.gifYep, kheirddine, that's exactly how it is. No shades of grey, only black and white.You want a hamburger instead of starving? Well, if you want one burger, that must mean you want a thousand burgers! How greedy of you! Surely you see how that's impossible, and that the only remaining option is to let you starve!

ETA #4: Couple pages in and now two trolls have arrived with ad hominems - "if you insult god you insult yourself, he's probably just in pain, etc. etc. etc.". Why discuss the issue when you can just sidestep and bully? ETA #5: And here comes the first mention of Soddom and Gomorrah, paraphrased, "cut the disobedience or we're gonna massacre every single one of you, down to the innocent infants!".

Beautiful. ETA #6: No, wait, there's a twist here - he was comparing Haiti to S&G. Even more beautiful! And it's a Muslim fundamentalist for a change!

[dafydd]

I notice that our resident god-botherers are keeping well away from this one.

[readme.txt]

A guy on another forum posted a diatribe about how "God f'n Rocks" for recently giving him a good deal on his rent.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83304

But when I said, "God's a swell guy. Sure, he just killed 230,000 people in Haiti, but he gave John a great deal on his rent", John rambled and obfuscated about why God killed the Haitians, and basically blamed them for not believing in Him enough.

Can anyone give a better reason than that?

I read the thread you linked in your post. Epic laughs. They kept saying you were "insulting" them? Wow John's responses were quite insulting. He told atheists to "go **** themselves". Pathetic. Almost everyone in John's thread is trying to explain the death of those Haitians. Unfortunately, they all have different explanations. Ad Hoc.

[The Atheist]

A guy on another forum posted a diatribe about how "God f'n Rocks" for recently giving him a good deal on his rent.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83304

But when I said, "God's a swell guy. Sure, he just killed 230,000 people in Haiti, but he gave John a great deal on his rent", John rambled and obfuscated about why God killed the Haitians, and basically blamed them for not believing in Him enough.

Can anyone give a better reason than that?

Haha! I had much the same discussion with some theists after the Samoan tsunami.

The Sa-sas are among the world's most christian people, and give thanks to their god for winning at rugby, but not for causing the tsunami.

What to do about it? Accept that theists see the world through god-tinted spectacles.

[Safe-Keeper]

Dunno. Why did God give those 230,000 Haitians life?So that he could watch them suffer horribly in a failed state and then die equally horribly in an earthquake, or continue to suffer in a failed state that has now gotten even worse.

I suppose Haiti is God's bull fighting range or something:boggled:.

[Kopji]

Is it just me or are people of all religious persuasions becoming a bit more cruel these days? From the new agers who told Robert Lancaster that he brought a stroke upon himself through bad karma/bad vibes, to the James Arthur Ray followers who said the victims died because they must have been harboring negative thoughts, to Christians saying that bad things happened to other people because they don't believe enough or due to some past sin or because they practiced the "wrong" religion.

What ever happened to "It was just their time to go"? It may not be any truer than anything else, but at least it's a little kinder. God isn't mad, you didn't do anything wrong. It was just time.

When something bad happens to the guy in the OP, is he likely to say that it's because he didn't believe enough? Is he going to consider that maybe he's been practicing the wrong religion? More likely he'll attribute it to something that reflects well on himself. Maybe God is "testing" him, God's tests are meant to make people stronger, God's ways are mysterious, God wants him to appreciate his blessings more, etc.

But maybe it's always been this way and I just hadn't noticed.


ETA: Please note that I don't mean to imply that all religious people are behaving this way. It's just something I've noticed more and more in public forums and in the press.

I think that a defining characteristic of our age is wide and rapid communication. These (strange) opinions have always been around, part of a wide spectrum - we are simply more aware.

I am actually encouraged that many thinking and caring Christians probably recoil from this kind of talk and it can only bring about change for the better - or their religion will become irrelevant and forgotten like the Greek Gods.

[devnull]

Ever heard of lemmings?

Yes, I used to play it on Amiga, and even bought the (technically very impressive) Commodore 64 version.

Please try to stay on topic though.

[Orphia Nay]

Angel: "Hmm, let's see, people are not prioritizing the way I'd want them to. What can we do?"
God: "How about we take this third-world failed state that no one's ever heard of and kill a quarter of a million of their population, while throwing the country into even bigger turmoil than before?"
Angel: "Sounds like a plan. I'll get the choir of angel to start playing their HAARPs".

:big:

[Orphia Nay]

I notice that our resident god-botherers are keeping well away from this one.

Indeed. I find that rather interesting.

I read the thread you linked in your post. Epic laughs. They kept saying you were "insulting" them? Wow John's responses were quite insulting. He told atheists to "go **** themselves". Pathetic. Almost everyone in John's thread is trying to explain the death of those Haitians. Unfortunately, they all have different explanations. Ad Hoc.

QFT.

IIRC at least one other poster (although I'm pretty sure a few of them are all the same person (not John)) also told me where to go rather rudely. I think I said that that wasn't very godly of them. ;)

Believers can avoid replying to this thread, but can they avoid the actual question itself?

[shadron]

Gh9SZhcejn0

Poor James seems to have some meterological confusion, but his message is clear.

[Thunder]

Because "God does not care about black people".

[Thunder]

Gh9SZhcejn0

Poor James seems to have some meterological confusion, but his message is clear.

he has good video personality.

too bad he is such a dick.

[KingMerv00]

Dunno. Why did God give those 230,000 Haitians life?

How else would he kill them?

[Safe-Keeper]

How else would he kill them? God's very own little ant farm...

[CurtC]

God's very own little ant farm...

God's mom: "Little YHWH, I like your little ant farm you call 'Haiti.' But those poor ants - you should give them a better environment and more food!"

YHWH: "It's OK, mom, I'm just raising them so I can crush them to death later."

[billw]

I recall at the time he was too busy helping Serena Williams win the Australian Open to stop the earthquake.

God can't multitask?

[Sledge]

Be reasonable, you can't expect an omnipresent being to be everywhere at once.

[I Ratant]

God is evil. As soon as you accept that, it all makes sense.
.
Were there a god, the one we have is evil.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Cause I was busy that day.

[geni]

Is it just me or are people of all religious persuasions becoming a bit more cruel these days?

Just you. Things have been pretty quiet on that front over a century.

[Iamme]

I notice that our resident god-botherers are keeping well away from this one.

It's because they can easily answer it. They know that if they came here and told you 2 + 2 = 4, you'd ask them to prove it. So...they just sit back and smile, knowing you will burn someday for such blasphemy.

Christians(and others) have had millenia to figure out why even good people died back in the day when men were more like monkeys. They pondered back then, I'm sure, why an ant could fall off a cliff unharmed, while they would get killed if hit on the head by a coconut.

Even John the Baptist was killed (beheaded). Disciples were found and killed. Jesus died. God sent the flood. The Passover. Babies die. Missionaries get killed. THE tsunami. Katrina. Bangladesh floods and hailstones. Ministers shot dead in church. And on and on.

It's obvious God has a good reason for all of this. Benny Hinn, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Jack Van Impe, Jan Crouch, Robert Schluler, Franklin Graham, et al...obviously know this easy answer that they all have had plenty of time to figure out the answer to.

[fuelair]

.
Were there a god, the one we have is evil.

That's the one.

[Orphia Nay]

It's because they can easily answer it. They know that if they came here and told you 2 + 2 = 4, you'd ask them to prove it. So...they just sit back and smile, knowing you will burn someday for such blasphemy.

Christians(and others) have had millenia to figure out why even good people died back in the day when men were more like monkeys. They pondered back then, I'm sure, why an ant could fall off a cliff unharmed, while they would get killed if hit on the head by a coconut.

Even John the Baptist was killed (beheaded). Disciples were found and killed. Jesus died. God sent the flood. The Passover. Babies die. Missionaries get killed. THE tsunami. Katrina. Bangladesh floods and hailstones. Ministers shot dead in church. And on and on.

It's obvious God has a good reason for all of this. Benny Hinn, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Jack Van Impe, Jan Crouch, Robert Schluler, Franklin Graham, et al...obviously know this easy answer that they all have had plenty of time to figure out the answer to.

And the answer is...?

[HghrSymmetry]

It's because they can easily answer it. They know that if they came here and told you 2 + 2 = 4, you'd ask them to prove it. So...they just sit back and smile, knowing you will burn someday for such blasphemy.

Christians(and others) have had millenia to figure out why even good people died back in the day when men were more like monkeys. They pondered back then, I'm sure, why an ant could fall off a cliff unharmed, while they would get killed if hit on the head by a coconut.

Even John the Baptist was killed (beheaded). Disciples were found and killed. Jesus died. God sent the flood. The Passover. Babies die. Missionaries get killed. THE tsunami. Katrina. Bangladesh floods and hailstones. Ministers shot dead in church. And on and on.

It's obvious God has a good reason for all of this. Benny Hinn, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Jack Van Impe, Jan Crouch, Robert Schluler, Franklin Graham, et al...obviously know this easy answer that they all have had plenty of time to figure out the answer to.

They all understand that undefined mythical nonsensical fictional characters have no effect on reality? Maybe they are smarter than we thought.

[Furcifer]

A guy on another forum posted a diatribe about how "God f'n Rocks" for recently giving him a good deal on his rent.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83304

But when I said, "God's a swell guy. Sure, he just killed 230,000 people in Haiti, but he gave John a great deal on his rent", John rambled and obfuscated about why God killed the Haitians, and basically blamed them for not believing in Him enough.

Can anyone give a better reason than that?

It's not wise to question God's will.

[yomero]

Gh9SZhcejn0

Poor James seems to have some meterological confusion, but his message is clear.

What I don't find so clear is why does he end his hate-filled sermon with the words "So, until then, I hope you feel the love, and have a nice day."

Feel the love ?

[Iamme]

And the answer is...?

I am hoping that by naming all those famous religious people, that one of them might check on who's talking about them, and come here and answer it.

I will not lie -I have my doubts, as even many supposed Christians do. They are probably dishonest if they say they do not have doubts.

But at the same time, I have a hard time believing as many people who claim to be atheists are really atheists. Anyone who even wonders - I'd say is an agnostic- not an atheist.

Ever wonder who are the ones who are making all these miraculous gadgets that we have? Looking back on your school days - can you think of people that were much smarter than you, who are probably the ones capable of this? Maybe you even got good grades in school. Maybe you graduated with honors. And yet you cannot figure out who is brainy enough to make all the assembly lines and robots, apps, 3-d design formats to show up on computers, cell phones, different painting techniques like powder-coating, space suits..... an endless list that makes this all seem even MORE unfathomable as to who are all these people doing this?! Suppose YOU even graduated near the top of your class. I will not ask you to see if without researching, if YOU could design everything man has designed - like the Hoover Dam, suspension-bridges, circuit boards, digital cameras...here I go again. Okay, I will make it easy for you. I will ask you to design only ONE thing, out of the millions of products out there we(at least I) cannot figure out who makes them all. Okay, I will give you 100... or 1000 years... to have you make one thing, if I give you all the raw material ingredients to make the device, and any machinery needed to make the device. One thousand years. Here it is - something with not too many parts to it - the tube fluorescent light bulb. Think you alone could do it? I have to admit - I don't think I could.

Why did I bring all that up? Because if you think about it, it almost seems like a miracle, as to where all this stuff came from. Godlike. Similar to the mystery of how we can't figure out how everything got here(that religious people claim God did it). Yet, we know that man made all the things I mention (including the flourescent bulb) in the paragraph above. The answer in how this is possible, is based on somthing simple. It is based on numbers. The reason we cannot grasp who is behind all these modern wonders, is the fact we cannot grasp millions or even billions of people who have separate jobs and talents! Many people cumulatively, at once, or even over time, have put their brains together, and built something with input from other people.

Based on what I have said so far, it is possible that since there really is no mystery on how man's earthly created things got here, that perhaps a similar explanation can be ascribed to how the mysteries of the universe got here. Like I said in my lengthy previous posts - maybe nothing more than trillions of interactions a second, going on for 13.7 billion years, is responsible. No magic. No God.

But, before we write off GOD entirely, since we do not really know how or why the ingredients of the universe all got here (or if we are somehow glazing over the explanation of the assembly process required for all the intricate things to come together just right, and interact properly with other intricate things)- maybe, based on what the Bible says in Genesis, when God said Let us create.....that something similar did the creating. Not one giant extra-smart man-like being we think of God as - but perhaps, what we call God, is somthing more like numbers (or laws). Maybe in the same sense of how 2 binary numbers make computers work...lots of 0's and 1's.... Perhaps GOD is the underlying master law of the Universe, and a host of angels in the millions or billions, where each angel was given a job, just like how each worker is given a job to produce a product based on the sum of each of their effort and/or talents.

Maybe. Maybe not. I think Einstein, and many other very bright people went to their graves, not knowing the definitive answer.

But do you think I am through thinking on the subject? Do you think I have dispelled the possibility of God entirely? Not I, anyway.

[I Ratant]

As a creative person, who has spent his life surrounded by creative persons, I find creativity is not all that uncommon, among the super-intelligent, and the less-than-normal intelligent.
The mind is a marvelous thing, and different folks find different and effective and ineffective ways to improve life using theirs.
Denigrating this innate ability by attributing it to some supernatural influence is an instance of self-hate as far as I'm concerned.
The "can'ts" seem to hate and fear the "can-dos", and when the "can'ts" have the authority, will try to cripple the "can-dos", with laws and regulations intended to keep the status to the low quo that the "can't dos" can accept.
Religions are a construct of the "can'ts", who fear thinking, much less thinking outside the box, which is where progress comes from.

[Sledge]

Iamme, regarding your comment "The reason we cannot grasp who is behind all these modern wonders, is the fact we cannot grasp millions or even billions of people who have separate jobs and talents": speak for yourself. What's so difficult to grasp about that?

As for not believing all atheists are atheists: why? You seem to be relying on some sort of definition of atheist as someone who completely denies any and all gods exist. The term simply means someone is without a belief in gods, not that they rule our any possibility that one might exist.

[dafydd]

But at the same time, I have a hard time believing as many people who claim to be atheists are really atheists. Anyone who even wonders - I'd say is an agnostic- not an atheist.

I am an atheist.Believe it.

[Orphia Nay]

I am hoping that by naming all those famous religious people, that one of them might check on who's talking about them, and come here and answer it.

I will not lie -I have my doubts, as even many supposed Christians do. They are probably dishonest if they say they do not have doubts.

So that's another believer with another "Dunno". I see. Thanks for your honesty.


But at the same time, I have a hard time believing as many people who claim to be atheists are really atheists. Anyone who even wonders - I'd say is an agnostic- not an atheist.

[snip rest of derail]

Please don't derail the topic. Thanks in advance.